She's back - I'm "delicious", again

[Chazz]

Here we go, again.

She asked to see me during a text exchange over returning items we had left at each others home. One thing lead... .You know the drill.

So, we meet at a public place. It had been 2 weeks, the longest separation to date. She says:  "You look thin." ... .I say: yeah:  'I've been stressed'.  She says:  "Is everything OK?" ... .I think: 'You're kidding right?' She's not kidding of course.

Long story short, we walked by the water, feed the ducks, broke bread and ended up mauling each other in my car at a parking lot. She said she would call me the next day. She didn't, nor did I call her. I did get successive text msgs. about how "delicious" I am. I responded, but felt dissociated. Like I was looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Creepy.

During our evening together, she talked at length about her "issues". I didn't say much, just listened, commenting occasionally to gently validate what she was saying. Here is some of it:

- She feels like she always plays a role with people to win their approval.

- She's used sex as a way of getting what she wants.

- She feels shame and depressed about the way she's had to live to survive. (See above.)

- She has a hard time staying in touch with her feelings for me when we're apart.

- She thinks I'm too intense because I express my feelings - good, bad and everything in between.

- She has never really loved her partners. I'm the closest she's come to loving someone. (Yeah, well maybe.)

- She talked about being given up at birth to foster care.

- She talked about being adopted at age 3 yrs. into a dysfunctional home.

- Her adoptive father didn't want another child. He abandoned the family when she was 7 yrs. old. He won't return her calls, even now.

- After her father left, her mother spent years looking out the window in stony, depressed silence.

- She talked about how her fundamentalist mother refuses to believe that her brother (10 yrs. older) sexually molested her from age 8-11 yrs...

- The closest her mother could get to acknowledging the abuse to her, then child, was to say:  "How do you expect to be treated when you dress that way?"

- She was wearing the PJs her mother gave her.

- She talked about how her mother dressed her in dowdy clothes when she was in grammer and high school.

- She talked about how she was constantly shuned and made fun of by her classmates.

- She talked about running away from home at age 14 yrs...

- She talked about how she used sex to survive on the streets.

- She talked about getting involved with the S&M scene. (She likes to dominate and humiliate men.)

- She talked about how our relationship is the first time she's ever been entirely present during love making.

- She talked about being kept at age 18-22 by a man 30 years older. She had to play a 10 year old during sex with him.

- She talked about marrying her husband for the sole purpose of climbing out of poverty.

- She talked about how sex with him was an ordeal she couldn't get over fast enough.

- She talked about how her relationship with her 5 year old son's father was always dissatisfying.

- She talks about how incensed she gets when her male clients make a pass at her. (She's very attractive and dresses tres provocatively.)

- She talked about how afraid she is of intimacy. She believes everyone ultimately abandons/rejects everyone.

- She talked about how sure she is that I will cheat on her. (It's never crossed my mind.)

- She was convinced I had already gotten a new partner during our two week separation.

- She couldn't seem to conceptualize what I might be going through during our separation. (No clue, no empathy.)

- She talked about all of this absolutely dry eyed, as if she was reading from a newspaper. (I had trouble breathing. I do even now.)

- She talked about how she doesn't like to think about these things and doesn't, except when talking to me.

- I was thinking how painful it must be for her to be around me; she can't tolerate the intimacy, or the feelings I induce in her. 

- She said she doesn't want to change how she thinks, feels, functions in the world.

- She says she needs her defense mechanism to survive. She can't imagine life differently.

- She never mentioned getting therapy. Nor did I mention BPD.

I was shocked by her candor. Even more shocked by her resignation about continuing to live in all that intrapsychic pain and terror. Then again, she's masterful at not feeling much of anything. Me, well, I'm looking at her through the wrong end of a telescope. And, I'm thanking God that I can feel the tragedy I'm witnessing.

Reading through these forums for the past two weeks as caused something in me to shift. I can't say exactly what yet. I still love her. My heart breaks for her... .I just can't see a future with her.   


 

[strangetrip]

Reading through these forums for the past two weeks as caused something in me to shift. I can't say exactly what yet. I still love her. My heart breaks for her... .I just can't see a future with her.   

hey brother, we are in the same boat. my exBPDgf, showed up and we had almost the same conversation... It is amazing how similar they are.  There is a few differences but not much. Mine is not so eager to admit someone might have molested her. At least not to my face. I suspect her uncle but who knows...

Mine shows no empathy for me for what she has done to me and she married another guy she did not hardly know. It is different then just breaking up or cheating, she got married and made it public right in front of my friends and co-workers.

It amazes me, that I still have feelings for her (maybe love) still having trouble with this and it breaks my heart to see her do this to herself and us. I can not see a futrue with mine either but knowing all that still does not help the way I feel.

I don't know what Iam going to do so I can't give you any adivice.

But, what I do know is they are sick and we love them but to stay would be emotional sucide... .

I don't know if it helps knowing your not alone... .Iam going thru the same...

Good luck man,

[Chazz]

Thanks, Strangetrip, my brother. 

Yes, it helps to know I'm not alone. Thank you for reaching out.

Reading these forums for the past two weeks has been a sanity saver. It's not that it doesn't still hurt - it does, but something has changed. I think it's because of the fellowship here, and knowing that I've been doing battle with this monstrous thing called Borderline Personality Disorder. It's no longer all about me. 

The information in these forums has helped me unpersonalize what has been going on in my relationship. It's like I got dosed with someone else's illness. I'm still sad and hurt, but in some essential way, I feel better. I don't feel so disempowered or confused anymore. The woman I love is ill, through no fault of her own. I can't fix that for her. I'm off the cosmic hook. 

My apologies for not completing my profile - I'm a woman. I will tend to the profile now.

[Tiredofit]

Good luck to both of you,I have decided to go NC and god willing,i will NEVER speak to or text her again.She is a drug to me.A great high that last very briefly followed by a very uneasy feeling.Shes so so sick.Like you guys I cant get past this feeling I have for her.Feels like love but it hit me this week that maybe Its pity.I dont know.How could I love a person that has done the most horrible things to me,over and over.How can I love somebody that when I think about it,I honestly can't say ONE good thing about her! Not one! Something in me changed over the last week and for the first time on this 2 year rollercoaster I have no doubt I will NEVER speak to her again.She no longer exists in my world and thats the way it will stay.I will stay active on this board and hope to be able to give some insight to others going thru the hell of having a relationship with "these people"

[strangetrip]

Chazz, sorry about that,  

I too have felt empwered with this site it helps understand what has been going on, but I still have this battle going on with me ego and my heart... maybe my own intrapsychic pain

[Chazz]

Chazz, sorry about that,  

I too have felt empowered with this site it helps understand what has been going on, but I still have this battle going on with me ego and my heart... maybe my own intrapsychic pain

No problem, Strangetrip - we're good.  

Yes, the empowerment is a Godsend. The heart and ego stuff more difficult to unravel.

One of the things I've fallen back on in my struggle to reconstitute, is my 12 Step ACOA Community. ("I'm a double winner".) My mother and father were alcoholics - my mother a BPD - so I've done a bit of work around my codependency issues. Nevertheless, this relationship kicked all of that up again for me. Fortunately, I had useful info in my head, even if it didn't always filter down to my heart.  :'(

One of the concepts I've been thinking about a great deal these days is the notion of humility (not to be confused with humiliation). By this I mean, I can go through a whole lot of hurt, make mistakes, even be a lovesick fool sometimes, and not go to humiliation... .I see humility as an experience of my humanity something that - once I come out the other side of whatever it is I'm going through - makes me more humane. I absolutely and truly believe this. It helps me see my present situation as purposeful suffering; not a descent into needless pain. It's a fine line, admittedly, but I keep a close eye on myself and ask others to hold me accountable for my self-destructive behavior. Indeed, they do, too. I tell my support network everything that is going on, so I don't regress into that "family secrets" nonsense that characterizes so many alcoholic/dysfunctional childhoods like mine.

Don't get me wrong - I'm really, really not all that... .I'm a hurtin' puppy. I just don't let myself go to catastrophizing like I use to do. It's hard; some days I'm more successful than others, but I work at it.

I think the best thing we can do for ourselves, and one another, is to use these forums to be deadly honest about the good, the bad and the ugly of what we're feeling. It's the only thing I know to do until all of this shakes out.

Thanks again, Strangetrip.

[Auspicious]

Keep in mind - she may be painting you to others they way she is painting others to you.

You may be an item in the list she recites to others ... .

[strangetrip]

 yep, I understand about the 12 step lesson on humility. Have use them to stay sober for ten plus years...

my exBPDgf is my addiciton and I have tried to apply them to this situation... .but it is different. not sure how to explain that but it is different... .Her behaviors and actions made me feel angery,frustarated, etc etc... .  my 12 steps teach me to take an inventory of my feelings... .we usually make amends to those we have harmed and try to forgive those that have done us wrong... .in forgiving her for her actions which hurt me and I got a resentment... I could not carry that resentment around... .So, i had to forgive her to get rid of that so I would not use again... .However, in forgiving her it enabled her to see a opening and was back on me... .so that is how it is different for me... We do have a step that says don't do physcial contacts if it could cause more harm... .I missed that part with her... .

So, Iam back where i started couple weeks ago...  

[Chazz]

Keep in mind - she may be painting you to others they way she is painting others to you.

You may be an item in the list she recites to others ... .

Good point... .

Regrettably, I suspect she may be doing exactly that. On the up side, she only has one friend, and the friend is just as "troubled" as she.  In the end, whatchagonna do? She's gonna say and do what she likes despite me - it's a BPD thing.

 

[OCDave]

I am so glad I read this thread, as I have so many similar issues and feelings over my ex-.  I wish that I could have that intimacy that I had with her for a few weeks there, forever.  If I could, I would be the happiest person on Earth.  But maybe it was for me like the most addictive drug ever, it filled the need in me the way substances sometimes do for others.  I am grateful for this board, as it is helpful to know others are going through this thing too.  Stay strong and remember, you are not what others do to you and say about you, you are you, and whether your borderline girlfriend appreciates you, paints you white, paints you black, or even talks to you is not what matters ultimately.  They are disturbed, they are disturbing, they don't give closure.  Lots of space and progress is what matters.  Dave

[Chazz]

yep, I understand about the 12 step lesson on humility. Have use them to stay sober for ten plus years...

my exBPDgf is my addiciton and I have tried to apply them to this situation... .but it is different. not sure how to explain that but it is different... .Her behaviors and actions made me feel angery,frustarated, etc etc... . my 12 steps teach me to take an inventory of my feelings... .we usually make amends to those we have harmed and try to forgive those that have done us wrong... .in forgiving her for her actions which hurt me and I got a resentment... I could not carry that resentment around... .So, i had to forgive her to get rid of that so I would not use again... .However, in forgiving her it enabled her to see a opening and was back on me... .so that is how it is different for me... We do have a step that says don't do physcial contacts if it could cause more harm... .I missed that part with her... .

So, Iam back where i started couple weeks ago...  

I hear you, Strangetrip. I'm sorta back in contact with my BPD, too. It's like going back to the old drug infested neighborhood right out of rehab. The danger of relapse is all around us.

Here's the thing, I'm reworking the Steps around all of this. I'm at Steps 1 and 2 at the moment:

1. We admitted we were powerless over our BPD—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.  

My life HAS become unmanageable around this craziness - AND - I believe that a Power greater than myself is the only way to restore me to sanity. Right now, these forums (and talking to you) are an aspect of my Higher Power in action.

As to resentment, I try to let my resentments pass through me. I don't resist them, I dance with them a little, then I recite the Serenity Prayer. My favorite quote about resentments is:  "Resentment is a poison we give to ourselves."

Indeed.

I am so glad I read this thread, as I have so many similar issues and feelings over my ex-.  I wish that I could have that intimacy that I had with her for a few weeks there, forever.  If I could, I would be the happiest person on Earth.  But maybe it was for me like the most addictive drug ever, it filled the need in me the way substances sometimes do for others.  I am grateful for this board, as it is helpful to know others are going through this thing too.  Stay strong and remember, you are not what others do to you and say about you, you are you, and whether your borderline girlfriend appreciates you, paints you white, paints you black, or even talks to you is not what matters ultimately.  They are disturbed, they are disturbing, they don't give closure.  Lots of space and progress is what matters.  :)ave

I agree. Our relationships with our BPDs is exactly like an addictive drug. I was a heroin addict; this feels even worse. Probably because, the "high" is even less predictable and short-lived.

About the "intimacy" with our BPDs... .I've been kicking around some thoughts on that. Here's what I got so far:

1. She's tapped directly into my unresolved childhood ego deficits with my parents. Scott Peck says:  "That which which was denied to us in childhood, can never be restored to us in our adult relationships." I've just got to drill that into my head and stop chasing childhood ghosts.

2. The intimacy with a BPD is OUTSTANDING - BECAUSE - they hoard intimacy. They drop it all at once, on one person, rather than depositing it on several, or a bunch, of people like most "healthy" people do. It's part of the reason my BPD is so jealous and insecure around my large circle of friends... .My capacity for intimacy with many people (to varying degrees) looks like me giving away that which she sees as belonging solely to her. This makes me appear untrustworthy in her mind. She hoards intimacy, and unloads it in one huge, transient chunk. She thinks intimacy is finite. Not a renewable resource that you can dare have with a number of people.

This board is amazing. Aren't we lucky to be here?

Thanks for posting, Dave.  

[dilbert]

Keep in mind - she may be painting you to others they way she is painting others to you.

You may be an item in the list she recites to others ... .

thats something i wondered about the person i know. although i TRIED to go NC a couple weeks ago, i cant imaging what she said about me. other than that, i have done nothing bad to her. and thats not even bad, i was trying to save myself.

[strangetrip]

"That which which was denied to us in childhood, can never be restored to us in our adult relationships." I've just got to drill that into my head and stop chasing childhood ghosts.

Please explain more... .

[dilbert]

"That which which was denied to us in childhood, can never be restored to us in our adult relationships." I've just got to drill that into my head and stop chasing childhood ghosts.

Please explain more... .

this is how i see it ST. youre mom didnt give you much love so you try to find it from your wife, a motherly type love. your father wasnt there, so you try to have your husband be your father too. i could be off, but thats how i see it.

my relationship with my exnonBPD, was kind of like that. i used her as a 'mother' type... cleaning, taking care of my 'owies' etc. she used me like a father, always wanting me to handle everything etc.

adult 'love' relationships are give and take not give give give

[johmel]

What continues to amaze me is the stories are SO similar.  Her history is almost word for word with my BPD ex.

I read somewhere that 85% of BPD's have been sexually abused as children/and or emotionally abused by parents.  My ex also had a long history of trading sex for affection.  She was one of 13 children and the only attention she got was the unwanted kind, but it was better than nothing.  She felt that her body was her only currency to trade for attention, affection, the feeling of being special to someone.

Luckily I got her into therapy, so now at least she's starting to think about how her actions might affect others.  Suggest you read my post A beautiful reprise... .

I think why it is so difficult to let go of a BPD is because they are like children emotionally, and that taps into a genetic nurturing, caring thing most of us have.  We are so forgiving because we know that they don't know any better and our love takes a long time to dissipate because of this. 

[dilbert]

What continues to amaze me is the stories are SO similar.  Her history is almost word for word with my BPD ex.



I think why it is so difficult to let go of a BPD is because they are like children emotionally, and that taps into a genetic nurturing, caring thing most of us have.  We are so forgiving because we know that they don't know any better and our love takes a long time to dissipate because of this. 

i like that analogy. you hit it on the head right there

[2010]

There's a dual edge to this sword; this infantilism. It requires another person to step up to the plate and do for that adult what they should be doing for themselves- and that isn't a skill that comes naturally- it's taught.

Someone asked on another post about what void these persons fill, and in my opinion it's not a void- it's a pull. We are pulled into the gravitational fields because of an attraction.  If it's as simple as sex drive- then your brain gets flooded with chemicals and your "transactions" with them becomes an addiction. If it's beyond sex, then there's another payoff you're getting from them- probably a recreation of childhood dynamics as Chazz stated; "chasing childhood ghosts."

One of the most dangerous and self destructive tendencies for anyone involved with a lover that has BPD is the lofty opinion that there is good in everyone, and nothing is too difficult in life to overcome. This is a form of vulnerable narcissism, a conspicuous existence whereby one faulty person can upset the entire dogma and challenge the belief.  Many good doers find their match in combating people with selfish genes.  And people with selfish genes use others unmercilously as dumping grounds until one ends up deriding the other. It's a set-up that's guaranteed to pay off for both parties and it is a recreation of childhood dynamics, with voicelessness at the core for the do-gooder. This frustrating dynamic can go on and on until bad health besets or they break away from one another's orbit.

Breaking away is what scientists call your *escape velocity.*

The greater your gravitational pull to an object, the more you get pulled into it's orbit and the harder it is to break away.  One doesn't break away without taking a few orbits around the object. The closer you stay in the gravitation of that object, the harder it is to break away.  It's a process that takes a few go arounds... .www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity

If you take a look at the picture at the right on this wiki page, you'll see a good graphic example of how things escape orbit: Isaac Newton's analysis of escape velocity. Projectiles A and B fall back to earth. Projectile C achieves a circular orbit, D an elliptical one. Projectile E escapes.

Finding the reasons for your gravitational pull is your understanding of the attraction. Understanding and mastering your attraction will limit the pull.  It's up to you to decide if this orbit is worth escaping... .and what the payoff is for you to stay.

[dilbert]

2010 its gonna take a couple reads to process that one. i do see what youre saying.

i think maybe im just getting some attention, someone to talk to. and if another steps into my life, i would be done with her. so thats kind of mean on my part really. but then again, im being used for something too.

EDIT! i just realized this wasnt MY thread... .but youre answer is similar to my question i had in another thread. holy cow! im telling ya, theyre clones!

[SoMuchPain]

why do i read the original part of this post and somewhat envy the pwBPD?  i would love to feel like i don't need to change anything b.c my way of living is working ... .

[dilbert]

why do i read the original part of this post and somewhat envy the pwBPD?  i would love to feel like i don't need to change anything b.c my way of living is working ... .

the person i know says something similar. she's used to being this way and likes it... .how sad. we all would like to say that someday they will see, but will they really?

[Auspicious]

why do i read the original part of this post and somewhat envy the pwBPD?  i would love to feel like i don't need to change anything b.c my way of living is working ... .

the person i know says something similar. she's used to being this way and likes it... .how sad. we all would like to say that someday they will see, but will they really?

They may or may not ... .but it's less likely that they ever will if we enable them, I think.

[dilbert]

why do i read the original part of this post and somewhat envy the pwBPD?  i would love to feel like i don't need to change anything b.c my way of living is working ... .

the person i know says something similar. she's used to being this way and likes it... .how sad. we all would like to say that someday they will see, but will they really?

They may or may not ... .but it's less likely that they ever will if we enable them, I think.

if we enable them or not, theres always the next 'victim'... .get this, its saturday night, my kids are with their mom who live with me full time. and im sitting here on the bpdfamily.com boards... .god i need a life

[NHBeachBum]

Keep in mind - she may be painting you to others they way she is painting others to you.

You may be an item in the list she recites to others ... .

Great point Auspicious!

My exBPDgf and I had a similar conversation where she stated how she checked with other friends to confirm all the issues that I had raised. She told me how much she wanted to get well & have our relationship be successful. What I didn't realize is that she was most likely already starting to paint me black. She completely mis-managed my expectations and started to re-engage... .only to dump me as she started to look for the next victim on match.com. There I was thinking we finally had a break through moment and she was finally going to get serious help but the reality was she was telling other people how evil I was and getting ready to cut me and many others out of her life as was typical.

Be careful about managing your expectations. My exBPDgf was masterful at finding her victim's weaknesses and honing right in on them to cause the maximum amount of pain and damage. She would tell me what she thought I wanted to hear in order to manipulate the outcome she wanted... .consistently!

-NHBB

[Chazz]

There's a dual edge to this sword; this infantilism. It requires another person to step up to the plate and do for that adult what they should be doing for themselves- and that isn't a skill that comes naturally- it's taught.

And when certain kinds of "adult" behavior it is NOT "taught", we are left ill-equipped to navigate certain aspects of life. Sometimes, we don't even know what we don't know. 

Someone asked on another post about what void these persons fill, and in my opinion it's not a void- it's a pull. We are pulled into the gravitational fields because of an attraction.  If it's as simple as sex drive- then your brain gets flooded with chemicals and your "transactions" with them becomes an addiction. If it's beyond sex, then there's another payoff you're getting from them- probably a recreation of childhood dynamics as Chazz stated; "chasing childhood ghosts."

I watched my father cater to my BPD mother's nonsense my entire childhood. It was a misbegotten survival model for dealing with unreasonable, often hostile, people. (Poor Pop, I think he did it to keep our home together for his kids. It was a different generation - people thought and did, differently.) 

During sex, the brain releases Oxytocin (i.e. the "cuddle hormone". Research indicates that this hormone promotes long-lasting pair bonding. In and of it's self, however, this does NOT explain the extraordinarily strong bonds NONs often feel for their BPD partners.   

www.wisegeek.com/what-does-the-oxytocin-hormone-do.htm

However... .I don't ascribe to the notion that every NONs love bond with a BPD person has to be codependent in it's entirety, or at all. Yes - In some/many(?) cases codependency may be a factor to a greater or lesser extent. However, some people just fall in love with difficult people, often before the craziness is exposed. I think a better measure of codependency is how you allow yourself to be treated. Hurt, disappointment, loss, a sense of betrayal isn't unique to codependent people. Non-codependent people mourn the loss of love, too. How one deals with craziness in a relationship, the extent to which one gets trapped in it, how one allows themselves to be (mis)treated, and what it revives in us, IS the measure of codependency.         

 

One of the most dangerous and self destructive tendencies for anyone involved with a lover that has BPD is the lofty opinion that there is good in everyone, and nothing is too difficult in life to overcome. This is a form of vulnerable narcissism, a conspicuous existence whereby one faulty person can upset the entire dogma and challenge the belief.  Many good doers find their match in combating people with selfish genes.  And people with selfish genes use others unmercilously as dumping grounds until one ends up deriding the other. It's a set-up that's guaranteed to pay off for both parties and it is a recreation of childhood dynamics, with voicelessness at the core for the do-gooder. This frustrating dynamic can go on and on until bad health besets or they break away from one another's orbit.

WOW... .Because you are speaking in quasi-religious terms (i.e. "dogma), I will simply say you've just turned the foundation of true Christianity on end. Though I am not religious - I am spiritual - I'm not entirely comfortable with a sweeping statement like this. I shutter to think what kind of world it might be if all altruism was deemed narcissistic. We already have ample examples of that. (However, I'm not jumping to the conclusion that you are speaking globally.) 

I will concede that there is "healthy" altruism and "unhealthy" altruism. Terms like martyr complex, dependent personality, failures-in-self-protection, the "completion complex" (Freud), and the much overused and abused term codependency come to mind.

But here's my thing (restating the first for emphasis):

- Not everyone in a relationship with a BPD is codependent. Though, they may be at risk of becoming codependent if they allow themselves to be mistreated.

-  It often takes time for the "bad stuff" to surface. You can't know, what you don't know. It's about what you do, when you do know, that matters. (Some of us have fallen in love before we know about the "bad" stuff.)

- When "bad" things happen to us, we often want to think there is something we could have done differently to prevent it. (It's the woulda/shoulda, if only syndrome.) This is especially true when the "bad" thing has left us feeling dis-empowered. Hindsight is 20/20. Ruminating endlessly and holding ourselves accountable for that which-we-did-not-know, can be unproductive. It can keep us stuck and further disempower us. The only cure for dis-empowerment is self-empowerment. Everything else, is water under the bridge.

Breaking away is what scientists call your *escape velocity.*

The greater your gravitational pull to an object, the more you get pulled into it's orbit and the harder it is to break away.  One doesn't break away without taking a few orbits around the object. The closer you stay in the gravitation of that object, the harder it is to break away.  It's a process that takes a few go arounds... .www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity

... .Finding the reasons for your gravitational pull is your understanding of the attraction. Understanding and mastering your attraction will limit the pull.  It's up to you to decide if this orbit is worth escaping... .and what the payoff is for you to stay.

I think:  Breaking ones orbit around a BPD is good (whether one stays or not)... .Falling into a BPD black hole, is never good. But, if you find yourself in a black hole, dismantling the space craft (space ship = your history and/or psyche) during a mid-air crisis may NOT be the way to go. Save yourself first by making a course correction, then dance with the space ghosts who may, or may not, have been steering the ship. Sometimes, it's just a matter of having taken a wrong turn at Venus.   

[turtlesoup]

How could I love a person that has done the most horrible things to me,over and over.How can I love somebody that when I think about it,I honestly can't say ONE good thing about her! Not one! Something in me changed over the last week and for the first time on this 2 year rollercoaster I have no doubt I will NEVER speak to her again.She no longer exists in my world and thats the way it will stay.I will stay active on this board and hope to be able to give some insight to others going thru the hell of having a relationship with "these people"

This is where I am at the moment Tiredofit, some time last week I let go to my feelings of care for her when she contacted me after two months saying she was still in love with me (hah) in one breath and then hurling a tirade of abuse and accusations in the other. I just think, you know what, I don't need this crap!

There is a turning point in all this when you think exactly what you just wrote, how can I possibly love a person who treats me like something she stepped in who I don't have a good word to say about and you realise, you know what, I don't! I got caught up in the fog, I am a codependent and instead of wasting more time on someone with 0 respect and empathy I am going to spend valuable time on myself so that I can gain respect for myself and so that one day, I value and have a woman in my life who knows what she has and knows how to love. No more of this BPD crapola.

Though like you, I do enjoy hanging out here, reading and helping where I can, this has been the worst emotional pain in all my 30 years and forced me to take a loong hard look at myself, when you see the experience for what it is, when the loss and pain dulls down you do realise that actually, this might be the knife in the back I needed to shoot me off in the right direction in life.

Keep going everyone, it gets easier and a lot faster if you go NC.

[turtlesoup]

There's a dual edge to this sword; this infantilism. It requires another person to step up to the plate and do for that adult what they should be doing for themselves- and that isn't a skill that comes naturally- it's taught.

Someone asked on another post about what void these persons fill, and in my opinion it's not a void- it's a pull. We are pulled into the gravitational fields because of an attraction.  If it's as simple as sex drive- then your brain gets flooded with chemicals and your "transactions" with them becomes an addiction. If it's beyond sex, then there's another payoff you're getting from them- probably a recreation of childhood dynamics as Chazz stated; "chasing childhood ghosts."

One of the most dangerous and self destructive tendencies for anyone involved with a lover that has BPD is the lofty opinion that there is good in everyone, and nothing is too difficult in life to overcome. This is a form of vulnerable narcissism, a conspicuous existence whereby one faulty person can upset the entire dogma and challenge the belief.  Many good doers find their match in combating people with selfish genes.  And people with selfish genes use others unmercilously as dumping grounds until one ends up deriding the other. It's a set-up that's guaranteed to pay off for both parties and it is a recreation of childhood dynamics, with voicelessness at the core for the do-gooder. This frustrating dynamic can go on and on until bad health besets or they break away from one another's orbit.

Breaking away is what scientists call your *escape velocity.*

The greater your gravitational pull to an object, the more you get pulled into it's orbit and the harder it is to break away.  One doesn't break away without taking a few orbits around the object. The closer you stay in the gravitation of that object, the harder it is to break away.  It's a process that takes a few go arounds... .www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity

If you take a look at the picture at the right on this wiki page, you'll see a good graphic example of how things escape orbit: Isaac Newton's analysis of escape velocity. Projectiles A and B fall back to earth. Projectile C achieves a circular orbit, D an elliptical one. Projectile E escapes.

Finding the reasons for your gravitational pull is your understanding of the attraction. Understanding and mastering your attraction will limit the pull.  It's up to you to decide if this orbit is worth escaping... .and what the payoff is for you to stay.

Absolutely spot on. For me and many others here that pull is (if you want to escape) broken much quicker by NC.

I'll be honest, when I first came here two months ago I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach pretty much all day every day. I was waiting for her emails, I was checking in on her, checking up on her, I was obsessed with what she had done and was also narcissistic to think my love would conquer all and she'd realise that. Reading here and having things explained to me, that we were both acting out damaged childhood relations, that a BPD lacked empathy, that I wasn't special to her, these things all hurt but I had to read them and digest them.

My payoff for staying was zip. More hurt, more disappointment, but I had to reach MY rock bottom (all the talk about rock bottoms had been about her reaching hers, but she had too much to lose to look at herself and I had much more to gain) before I could truly "get over her". Now Im here, I don't miss her. The quicker you can go NC and put ALL the attention pretty much on you and your healing and your future, the quicker you can break the orbit. And listen to 2010 this guy is the bomb on BPD Makes sense to me anyway.

[AnonNZ]

"That which which was denied to us in childhood, can never be restored to us in our adult relationships." I've just got to drill that into my head and stop chasing childhood ghosts.

Please explain more... .

I'm sure Chazz will correct me if I miss the point... .

This is something my T said to me as well when I started asking some hard questions around whether or not the damage done during my childhood would ever be repaired... .The simple, blunt and quite staggering answer she gave was "no".

She compared it to a deep wound that had scarred over. Although the wound had healed, the scar would always be there, although it would fade a bit over time and with more work.

I've now come to realise that I have been using my adult relationships in a futile attempt to fill the various holes left over from my childhood. Even now, eight months after she told me this I'm still mourning for what life could have been like had BPD and NPD not played such a large part in my childhood.

[Chazz]

"That which which was denied to us in childhood, can never be restored to us in our adult relationships." I've just got to drill that into my head and stop chasing childhood ghosts.

Please explain more... .

I'm sure Chazz will correct me if I miss the point... .

This is something my T said to me as well when I started asking some hard questions around whether or not the damage done during my childhood would ever be repaired... .The simple, blunt and quite staggering answer she gave was "no".

She compared it to a deep wound that had scarred over. Although the wound had healed, the scar would always be there, although it would fade a bit over time and with more work.

I've now come to realise that I have been using my adult relationships in a futile attempt to fill the various holes left over from my childhood. Even now, eight months after she told me this I'm still mourning for what life could have been like had BPD and NPD not played such a large part in my childhood.

Like you, AnonNZ, I spent many years mourning what was lost to me in childhood. Both my parents were alcoholic; my mother BPD. The wounds do scar over, though they remain susceptible to rewounding. I spent many years of my life trying to win my BPD mother's approval - I never did. When she died, I did not shed a tear. I was over her. I did, however, grieve the absence of grief... .

However, I don't think we are ever entirely free from the remnants of certain kinds of trauma. They are etched on our being on a cellular level. We survive, we may even thrive, but remnants (impressions?) of trauma remain. Best case outcome is that we manage them, rather then they managing us. Getting involved with a BPD can reopen old wounds. And don't you and I know it?

That said, I think F. Scott Peck was making a slightly different, but related, point when he said: "That which which was lost to us in childhood, can never be restored to us in our adult relationships."

I believe Peck meant that adult relationships should meet adult needs - not unrequited childhood needs.   

[OCDave]

I agree. Our relationships with our BPDs is exactly like an addictive drug. I was a heroin addict; this feels even worse. Probably because, the "high" is even less predictable and short-lived.

About the "intimacy" with our BPDs... .I've been kicking around some thoughts on that. Here's what I got so far:

1. She's tapped directly into my unresolved childhood ego deficits with my parents. Scott Peck says:  "That which which was denied to us in childhood, can never be restored to us in our adult relationships." I've just got to drill that into my head and stop chasing childhood ghosts.

2. The intimacy with a BPD is OUTSTANDING - BECAUSE - they hoard intimacy. They drop it all at once, on one person, rather than depositing it on several, or a bunch, of people like most "healthy" people do. It's part of the reason my BPD is so jealous and insecure around my large circle of friends... .My capacity for intimacy with many people (to varying degrees) looks like me giving away that which she sees as belonging solely to her. This makes me appear untrustworthy in her mind. She hoards intimacy, and unloads it in one huge, transient chunk. She thinks intimacy is finite. Not a renewable resource that you can dare have with a number of people.

This board is amazing. Aren't we lucky to be here?

Thanks for posting, Dave.  

Thank you, and I will say one thing though :  you have the ability to cure whatever happened to you as a child, and God can do that working throughyou if you earnestly seek it.  God Bless you.

[Chazz]

I agree. Our relationships with our BPDs is exactly like an addictive drug. I was a heroin addict; this feels even worse. Probably because, the "high" is even less predictable and short-lived.

About the "intimacy" with our BPDs... .I've been kicking around some thoughts on that. Here's what I got so far:

1. She's tapped directly into my unresolved childhood ego deficits with my parents. Scott Peck says:  "That which which was denied to us in childhood, can never be restored to us in our adult relationships." I've just got to drill that into my head and stop chasing childhood ghosts.

2. The intimacy with a BPD is OUTSTANDING - BECAUSE - they hoard intimacy. They drop it all at once, on one person, rather than depositing it on several, or a bunch, of people like most "healthy" people do. It's part of the reason my BPD is so jealous and insecure around my large circle of friends... .My capacity for intimacy with many people (to varying degrees) looks like me giving away that which she sees as belonging solely to her. This makes me appear untrustworthy in her mind. She hoards intimacy, and unloads it in one huge, transient chunk. She thinks intimacy is finite. Not a renewable resource that you can dare have with a number of people.

This board is amazing. Aren't we lucky to be here?

Thanks for posting, Dave.  

Thank you, and I will say one thing though :  you have the ability to cure whatever happened to you as a child, and God can do that working throughyou if you earnestly seek it.  God Bless you.

Thank you, Dave.  I, too, believe "God" can help us heal if we work earnestly. "God" most certainly does work through people. A complete cure, I'm not so sure about. I think we have to strive for self awareness and remember to honor our childhood wounds. The concept of karma comes to mind, but not in a punitive way.

[Chazz]

OK, here's the immediate situation... .

She's back, and back saying all the "right" things. Oh, dear!

I am ever so cautious. Hyper-vigilant is more like it.

I'm blown away by some of the things she's admitting to. I never thought she could do it, or that she had so much personal insight.

Did I mention I'm hyper-vigilant?

This morning she talked about going into therapy together. I prefer doing a solo act around therapy - some things need to be yours and only yours. But, if it gets her in the door, that could be a very good thing. She's been in therapy before with mixed results. The big stumbling block as I see it, is her ambivalence about exchanging her BPD defense mechanisms for new ones. (She talked about it openly?)  This is a choice she, and she alone, must make.

I asked her what made her decide to come back after 2 weeks of no communication. She said:  "I missed you terribly. This relationship is the closest thing I've ever had to true intimacy." Uh, Huh.

What I do think (or would like to think) is a hook for her about me, is that I'm basically a calm, consistent and grounded person without being boring. (This is how she characterizes me, anyway.) Also, I haven't in reality done anything to antagonize her insecurities or her all consuming fears of rejection. When she has one of her BPD "fevers", she loses sight of these things, but when the "fever" passes, she seems to be able to "hold" me, internally, again. You know that object constancy business.

What I think may have "worked" this time, was my not contacting her. I broke a pattern. I've also made it clear to her that, although I care for her, I cannot and will not live in chaos. The thing that still concerns me, is that she still displays the capacity to see the world from two competing realities. No one can be trusted - I trust you. I can literally see her struggling to reconcile these two disparate views - she admits to seeing them herself. Best of all, she must have said "I hate that I'm so crazy sometimes" at least 50 times. She also voiced concern about what her "crazies" may be doing to her 5 year old son. (Jeesh Honey, ya think?)

My plan right now is to spend as much, no more, time tending to myself than the "relationship". I still fear raw and uneasy. I feel compelled to take care of myself, including for the people who have been supportive of me through all of this. They need me to be there for them, too. This stuff can leave you high and dry with nothing to give to others. I'm not going to let myself turn into an empty husk behind this relationship. That was starting to happen before I walked out this last time.

We'll see... .

I'm going to stay very close to these forums. I need the wisdom, here.     

[Chazz]

I just posted the following comment in another thread. I'm repeating it here because I want to be held accountable.

The truth is, I now feel ambivalent towards her.

The closest I can get to explaining this is to say, something in me has shifted. I can't at this point see a future with her. I no longer have the ability to take a long view of the relationship.

I can't shake the feeling that this is a good thing. Self-protective. I honestly don't want it to go away. I can't imagine what it would take TO MAKE this feeling go away. I hope I'm not pursuing the relationship for some, as yet, unknown reasons to me - say like proving something to myself, ego needs, or a need for some sort of weird vindication. That would feel crummy, but I will keep an eye out for that. I will also speak to it, here, should something like that surface.

Here's what I do know:  I don't want this relationship to take up so much space in my head anymore. There have been things I have been neglecting. I just won't let that happen anymore. Maybe, God forbid, some healthy boundaries are snapping back into place.

 

 

[AnonNZ]

First some background and then some advice... .

Background

I walked out on my BPD fiance 12 months ago last week, so possibly have a different view to many on this board... .

I think it's possible she truly means it and she will try her hardest to, as my ex put it "stop the crazy coming out". However, without serious patience and understanding from you as well as long-term therapy it's also highly likely she will fail and you will end up back down the rabbit hole.

As my T and my lawyer, both highly experienced with pwBPD put it, "even if it does work out, you will be the one doing most of the compromising to make it work". I loved my ex more than anyone else I've ever known. She made me feel more special than anyone before in my 34 years.

I weighed up my options and decided I did not want to spend my life a) looking over my shoulder, b) watching everything I said and moderating my behaviour to avoid triggering her, c) constantly picking up the pieces, and d) taking the risk that regardless of what I did she would eventually cheat, walk out or harm me (she was a nurse with access to some fairly serious drugs).

The advice

Whether you choose to pursue the relationship or not, find a therapist who knows about BPD and start talking... .

[Chazz]

Thank you for the advice, AnonNZ.

I'm stuck on I can't see a future with her.

[VanessaG]

I'm stuck on I can't see a future with her.

Chazz, that was where I got stuck too.  From what I observed, and the dynamics of the relationship, I knew, my HEAD knew, that it was not a good fit, that it didn't have long-term potential.  For a million different reasons, and this was before I knew about BPD (or that there was a name for what I saw as a strange and sad pattern of behavior).  I knew that it.would.not.work.

But my heart, whew!, my heart was a different matter entirely.  I loved him.  I still do, knowing everything I know about him, having suffered all I did for and with him.

The head wins out, however.

And the NC has given my heart time to catch up (mostly) with my head.  Or at least so that they have detente most days of the week. 

Hang in there.  Tough times, I understand.  I liken it to having your head stuck in the blender while it's set on frappe.

x

Much great discussion on this thread.  I appreciate every word.

VanessaG

[Chazz]

I'm stuck on I can't see a future with her.

Chazz, that was where I got stuck too.  From what I observed, and the dynamics of the relationship, I knew, my HEAD knew, that it was not a good fit, that it didn't have long-term potential.  For a million different reasons, and this was before I knew about BPD (or that there was a name for what I saw as a strange and sad pattern of behavior).  I knew that it.would.not.work.

But my heart, whew!, my heart was a different matter entirely.  I loved him.  I still do, knowing everything I know about him, having suffered all I did for and with him.

The head wins out, however.

And the NC has given my heart time to catch up (mostly) with my head.  Or at least so that they have detente most days of the week. 

Hang in there.  Tough times, I understand.  I liken it to having your head stuck in the blender while it's set on frappe.

x

Much great discussion on this thread.  I appreciate every word.

VanessaG

Thank you much, Vanessa. It's reassuring to have you identify with the things I am feeling.

Over the past few days, I've entered a new phase with my situation. She's been around, and around a lot. As sweet and attentive as she's being, I still can't see a future with her. In fact, I feel like I'm looking at her, and the situation in general, through the wrong end of a telescope. I've been checking in with myself about this lest I'm doing some sort of depersonalization.    Perhaps I am, but it feels more accurate to say I'm (involuntarily) emotionally distant from her. I just don't feel the emotional "rushes" I use to when she was "on" with me. This is a significant change.

She's been baring her soul. This is new... .All sorts of heretofore unknown information is coming out about her life and her inner world. If I wasn't skeptical - if I wasn't so emotionally burned - I might think she was turning some sort of corner. But talk is cheap and I'm not going for the oakie-dope - certainly not on her say so. It's going to take a great deal more than talk for me to feel safe and open again. You can't unknow, what you know. I's been edumacated.

But here's the thing... .

I'm feeling a little guilty about her spilling her guts while I sit back, at some distance, judging her. It feels like an ethical issue. One part of me says:  This is you necessarily having good boundaries, Chazz.  ... .Another part says:  Watch it, Chazz, this is you being disingenuous and untrustworthy. (Untrustworthy in the sense that I'm not being entirely straight with her about where I am with her and what I'm feeling.) It's a bit of a dilemma because I tend to be a straight shooter and honest about what I'm thinking and feeling. Then again, I'm dealing with someone who isn't always either or both, so... .

I'm not yet sure about what to do with my change of inner venue. On the one hand, I don't want her to have changed me. (Is this my ego talking?) Especially in regard to things I have always "liked" about myself (being honest and a straight shooter). On the other, I've read just about every article on this site and I'm "getting it" that you have to deal with BPDs from a calm and centered place... .Fact is, what I was formerly doing with her wasn't working - fact is, maybe being more circumspect is a good thing for me to be in all things. Could this be one of the lessons this relationship was destined to teach me?

One more thing... .

I'm also feeling guilty about putting her stuff out in cyberspace. I debated about doing it before I ever posted here. It's a loyalty and confidentiality issue for me. Yes, we are all functioning from a place of presumed anonymity. And, I was desperate for information and support when I first joined up. But, but, but... .  I think this putting her business out there issue stems from years of following the 12 Step Principles about gossip and anonymity - and, rightfully so... .

I'm also looking at whether some part of this guilt is simply me being uncomfortable about asking for, and receiving, help/support. I can be a ridiculously prideful person.

(I'm also, now, feeling guilty about posting in the Disengaging forum when I should, probably, be posting in the Staying forum. I don't want to flaunt the fact that shes's back (sorta) at people yearning for their loved ones... .Also, the tenor of the advice I'm getting may be different. See what I mean (?), I'm all over the map, though all of this is raising personal issues that need attention which is good.

Process, not perfection, Chazz. And, keep workin' it, 'til it works.