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Author Topic: The man, the mirror and possibly acceptance?  (Read 1510 times)
turtlesoup
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« on: July 14, 2010, 05:32:10 PM »



Just a couple of weeks ago there was a topic on these boards talking about the exBPD being a soulmate of ours and a theory that they were a mirror perhaps for all that was wrong in us. I didn't like this much. The idea that all this crazyness I endured was a mirror of me was something I found very hard to swallow and quite insulting. I've come to understand this now as something else. Not that my exBPD was apeing me or my actions but that she was showing back to me my problems by being the other side of the coin, the penny that fit the slot.

We say all the time here that we have to look at our own behaviour, why were we so chemically drawn to these people. Many of us talk about the deep sexual/physical contact, the ignoring of red flags, believing that this was love even though many of us didn't really like the person our exBPD was, they were cruel to us, they didn't show compassion, these boards are filled with these stories but still our souls yearned for this person. It makes no sense.

My exBPD was supercharge off the hook plain old nuts a lot of the time. How can I date this person and respect myself? Obviously I can't and didn't! She was a mirror, she gave to me unconditionally in bondage (both figuratively and sexually) to start with and then at the end accused me of being perverse. There is a codependent hole in me that absorbed that woman and every bit of her I could get, the drama, the headaches, the base and primal sex, this was the whole and unconditional, over the top, dependent love I craved. Why I craved this is now my work. I am not going to say why, to expose my soul on this forum entirely but obviously it has to do with my take on love and what has been missing whilst growing up.

It has taken me 6 months to arrive here. 6 months to turn and look at myself. I was so repulsed by her and embarressed by her that by association I had these feelings for myself. I have to accept that I allowed this to happen to me and that she completed me so totally and captured me because I have a problem and you want to know something else... .this is the best feeling I've had in 6 months. It's no longer about her and things I can't control. I don't have to stand with my mouth agog wondering how someone could be so careless and hurtful, how they could talk of a future to your face and be cheating behind your back, because it's not about her, its about me, and its the most freeing realisation I've had thus far.

I'd like to be able to carry this feeling through so if anyone has any ideas for books on codependency (I already have a therapist!) that would be great. I have been so struck by this feeling that she was the one for me, really just because I'd never had such a sexual connection, I hadn't realised it could just be my deep need for BPD characteristics drawing me to these women, that they fulfill a need in me and that is where the "heat" is generated. I thought it was love! Im so glad it's not! Now it's definately NOT it means I haven't lost the love of my life, just the biggest mirror Smiling (click to insert in post)

I know this is rather self indulgent thread but the person who wrote the soulmates thread, even though I really didn't like it, managed to get me really thinking and sometimes it is surprising how the insights of others, even if at first you think they are not to do with your issue get you taking another tack.

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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 05:46:35 PM »

Can't it just be a bit of bad luck being "snared" by a predator?
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turtlesoup
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 05:54:58 PM »

Can't it just be a bit of bad luck being "snared" by a predator?

Hi

It could be! I have never struggled to get over a woman as I have with this one... .and like I said, I don't like her... .she never made me laugh, so why so sad? How it is for you, may be something different. For me, I had this sexual connection with her that I just can not describe, I've never taken drugs but I'm guessing that would be the closest thing. The intimacy with her, was a drug, completely and I nearly lost my world chasing this high that came with so many damaging lows, nearly lost my job, did lose friends, my family thought I had lost the plot allowing someone to treat me this way. I think, and again, just for me, its critical I understand how I let myself compromise so much and dated a person I didn't like mostly because i am ___ scared of doing it again! Sure, she's a con artist and a liar, im not cutting her any slack, but Im tired of thinking about her BPD, this... .my problem... .it's light relief!
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 05:59:48 PM »

Good luck to you.

I am 1 year out and still in constant self reflection about how I got in that mess and how to avoid it in the future.
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schwing
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 06:20:13 PM »

I can identify with your experience Turtlesoup.

And this is why I feel that what people with BPD (pwBPD) have, can be like a terrible gift.  They can see others so clearly and so deeply, and can elicit such vulnerability and wonder.  My xuBPDgf helped me realize some of the best qualities I never knew I had in myself: the commitment and devotion, self-sacrifice, and such love.  And at the same time she taught me just how much of myself I was willing to give up in order to keep what I so dearly sought.  And how painful and woeful a state I could be reduced to, when it was taken away from me.

I learned so much about myself as a result of my experience with her that in many ways I cannot help but be grateful to her.  But of course that is not how I always felt about my experience.  There were times I felt I hated her at least as much as I once loved her.
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 06:51:42 PM »

Turtle,

I agree with you completely. I didn't dislike my ex quite so much, but he definitely had some qualities I didn't like. However, There were many things I absolutely loved about him. We had many hours of discussions about people and the world and we bared our souls to each other in a way I had never done before. He was absolutely the great love of my life. Lows, they were there for sure. But even those, I could accept for the most part, until he wanted to date others. That I was not comfortable with. I am a serial monogamist and I never wanted anyone but him. That led to lying and cheating, and the rest.

Sexually, he taught me more about trust than anyone before. I am a very strong kind of feminist person and he was into S and M. I had never in a million years thought I would let myself be tied up or dominated sexually. Yet with him, I found it very freeing. I could explore all of that and I think it was good for me in that way. Now, he did lack in the tender department sexually. With him it was always super charged and primal. I would prefer it to be a bit more balanced. But that was the problem with him in general.

Balance. He was either one way or another. He actually told me his therapist said it was OK that he was a black and white thinker. Which I cannot believe!He must have misinterpreted that or lied.

Anyway, the sex was amazing and the rest of it was 35% good. But when it was bad... .it was terrible.
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2010
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 07:18:10 PM »

Excerpt
I learned so much about myself as a result of my experience with her that in many ways I cannot help but be grateful to her.  But of course that is not how I always felt about my experience. There were times I felt I hated her at least as much as I once loved her.

And if I could add anything to Schwing's elegantly placed observation-it would be this: This wasn't about codependency. It was about the internal saboteur of the False Self.  The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists. It has been replaced by an ~authentic~ human being, with a greater self-realization of reality and awareness of the pitfalls of fantasy. In truth- we are becoming wisdom.

A Personality Disordered human being has a pattern of behavior that is ingrained, and rigid. But we dont see that at first. A blogger called Mommybunny writes: "At first, it is paradise. They are exciting and sexy. They are adventurous. They seem to make us feel more attractive, more important and more brilliant than we ever even dared to believe. We have no idea that it is all part of a dance repeated by these people over and over again. We are idealized. We are the most perfect ideal of our own self-image.  These people have done the work of the makeup artist. We are seeing ourselves in reflection, but in perfect form. How could we not fall in love?

The idealization phase is heaven. Nothing could be better. It is a little bit heady in experience. We feel off-balance. We feel higher than we have ever flown before, but with a sense of danger. We are losing ourselves. It feels too good to be true. It feels to good to be true because it is.

One day, for no reason that we can identify, something ugly happens. We find ourselves ignored, or deeply insulted, or the object of rage. There seems no reason for this. It hurts like the stab of a knife to the soul. We try to make amends for this unseen thing we did to become less wonderful to our partner. In the back of our minds, I think we know that it is the beginning of something very different.

These people lack a developed sense of “self” and so they borrow ours. In doing so, they become less enchanted with the image. We are now tainted with the horror they avoid. They see the phantom, distorted image of their own inner world. This, they cannot bear. We have lost our luster in binding to this partner. He or she must find a new specimen. They need fresh humanity that does not bear the mark of their own tortured soul.

We cannot understand at first. From this point of view, it is understandable that this human must try to do everything and anything possible not to look in the mirror. They run away. They project the vile parts of themselves onto us. For some time, we accept the burden. We see they are in pain. We love them and so we take it on, hoping to ease the burden and help them feel better.

Time after time, we take on their pain. It is confusing to us that this seems to make them hate us so much more. It makes no sense to a person with an identity of one’s own. They look at us and see themselves (punished.) They rage and run; they insult and beg; they find fault and ridicule. We love them anyway.

In the confusion, we become traumatized and distraught. We fall into an abyss. We cannot see ourselves any longer.  We have reached the ultimate irony. For the Borderline, to not be able to see one’s true self is a great victory. For us, it is the ultimate loss."

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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 07:49:59 PM »

And if I could add anything to Schwing's elegantly placed observation-it would be this: This wasn't about codependency. It was about the internal saboteur of the False Self.  The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists. It has been replaced by an ~authentic~ human being, with a greater self-realization of reality and awareness of the pitfalls of fantasy. In truth- we are becoming wisdom.

2010, this was so soothing, and so real... .Idea  Idea  Idea  Idea  Idea

and Mommybunny... .wow!

9 months out and this wrapped it up in a bow.  Thanks for starting this thread TS.  x
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 08:08:13 PM »

2010, THANK YOU for sharing that! Wow. That hit home... .
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2010, 08:18:14 PM »

Turtlesoup:

Not sure I could even possibly improve upon the eloquence of 2010, with acknowledgements to Mommybunny, but I think you may also be a little too self-critical at the moment, however liberated you might be regarding the "flip side" of the soulmate coin and previous discussions/threads about that issue.

I think what's so difficult for us nons who feel so passionately, so devotedly, so affirmed and alive by the physical and emotional chemistry of that relationship that ultimately eludes us because of the mirage of our BPD lover is that what we really hope and want to see in the mirror is the person BESIDE us in that mirror, who feels and acts as honestly, passionately, loyally, and lovingly as we do, so that when we're looking at ourselves, whether in joy or in crisis, they're looking in the mirror with us--at us, but also at themselves.

Instead, we get the ghost images, the False self (of them) and, as a result, potentially of ourselves, standing, bereft, with nothing but the longing.
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2010, 09:40:48 PM »

turtlesoup,

I always relate to your posts.

Excerpt
She was a mirror, she gave to me unconditionally in bondage (both figuratively and sexually) to start with and then at the end accused me of being perverse. There is a codependent hole in me that absorbed that woman and every bit of her I could get, the drama, the headaches, the base and primal sex, this was the whole and unconditional, over the top, dependent love I craved. Why I craved this is now my work.

Do you still crave this? I am 8 weeks NC and I do. The sexual connection was so powerful on every level. We were: tender, romantic and playful, imaginative with role playing/dress up, trusting each other to trade roles in bondage/S and M, and all of it seemed like this incredible combination of psycho/sexual merging; both of us giving ourselves to each other in ways we had never been with another partner; going to places we had never been. What a betrayal to be split me black because *I* was sexually perverted and emotionally self indulgent. I was his slave, he was my master. I was his master, he was my slave. I am struggling with how to find peace and let this go. I fear that I will never again experience this kind of sexuality and it really makes me sad.

Is this kind of sexuality part and parcel of BPD? Is it just the flip side of something destructive? Are we left to believe that none of it was "real". It felt very real to me. I have struggled with this question: if I allow myself to believe the incredible sex was real between us, then do I also have to believe that the horrible accusations were true as well? Is it wrong to crave a truly amazing sexual bond where both partners are dependent on each other and emotionally invested 100%.
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T2H
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2010, 10:02:13 PM »



Hey TS - nice to see you again. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Thanks for sharing this!

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2010
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« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 10:13:12 PM »

Excerpt
The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists. It has been replaced by an ~authentic~ human being, with a greater self-realization of reality and awareness of the pitfalls of fantasy. In truth- we are becoming wisdom.

This is what therapy is all about. You go in to an office and talk to a complete stranger about perceptions of reality and methods of dealing with difficulty. For most of us, the intimacy in a one hour chat isn't enough to trigger a complete breakdown of who you think you are. It's only in the self trusting, complete intimacy of mirroring- that we let down our guard. And we do that when we think people understand us. When we come across a person who idealizes, mirrors and unfortunately has a hidden personalized (its all about them!) agenda in mind- it shakes our very foundations of who we are and who we trust. And it is exactly the reason why we get pulled in and involved with a person that mirrors us, idealizes us, and then devalues us. They steal our false self and then deride it, but we've allowed it to happen. They shame us.

Because our false self served us so well in the past, we fight to get it back and clean it up- and the fight and struggle is what nearly kills us.

It is a transference that normally would have taken place in a therapist's office- If it would have happened at all- after *decades* of therapy. The speed involved is frightening (often after a few months)- and the loss of control is demoralizing. That's why some people think of this as a great gift. It's almost as though they peeled off a great scab that had covered a pre-existing wound. A wound that we thought we had taken care of a long time ago. We can only have this happen IF we allow someone to get very, VERY close.

The good news is- you transferred your reaction formation of a false self onto the BPD and came away with a realization. The bad news is: Your BPD partner did *not* learn a thing.

James F. Masterson says, that the Borderline is *not able* to respond to analysis, because they are *not able* to form a transference relationship with the therapist. I would add, that they are not able to be in healthy relationships, because they are not able to complete a transference with the partner without regressing.

In other words, they could project onto you, but "could not see you as a separate, complete individual with both postive and negative qualities." You however, could see positive and negative in them. And in spite of that false persona they may have mirrored- you've now come away from this and are able to see things in a completely different light.

According to Masterson, "A pre-requisite for a relationship was "an alliance" with the explicit understanding that two people are working together to help achieve a mature insight into any problems and the means to alleviate them."

But this is impossible to accomplish with a mirrored false self that's shared between two people. While your false self (listen, no one is *that* perfect) is being idealized by your partner, it's also being placed further and further from reality. And the further and further it's placed from reality- the more YOU become aware that it's not really *who you are.*

"The Borderlines problem arises from the developmental arrest of the ego and from defenses constructed against the abandonment depression when the real self emerges."  That's their own real self- but it also applies to you as well. Their fear of their own true self is what keeps them focused on your false self. By mirroring you and idealizing you, they undermine your real self and force you to defend your false self when things start to go downhill.

There is a withdrawing persona and a rewarding persona in Borderline. The rewarding persona is concerned with immediate pleasure rather than long term stability- and it reverts to regressive behavior that is activated by your "borrowed" false self. *THEIR* false self is so much more baby-like, infantile, submissive, masochistic, clinging. And concentrating on fantasy keeps them away from recognizing their own true reality (being.)

"The partner is not treated as a separate person upon whom the BPD displaces infantile feelings for the purpose of understanding them and working them out- but as a kind of maternal figure on who the BPD can engage in a kind of instant replay of the abandonment scenarios from childhood. Without realizing it, the BPD drags past and present and projects them onto the partner."

So your false self is very valuable- and they work it in a form of "reunion fantasy" whenever you have limited contact and they fear you are taking it away. This gives you the hope that you will become shared keepers of the false self again. But it's only a matter of time before reality sets in and hits you over the head. The false self has to go... .it cannot be maintained. It has to be shelved- this time for good. You are no longer that person anymore.

I hope I explained this well enough to understand. Most of it can be found in Masterson's book, "The search for the real self." His explanations, I'm sure, are much better than mine.  



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« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2010, 11:23:40 PM »

turtlesoup,

I must apologize because I think my previous post was a little bit off topic. I think I get where you are coming from, please correct me if I am wrong.

Excerpt
I have been so struck by this feeling that she was the one for me, really just because I'd never had such a sexual connection, I hadn't realised it could just be my deep need for BPD characteristics drawing me to these women, that they fulfill a need in me and that is where the "heat" is generated. I thought it was love! Im so glad it's not! Now it's definately NOT it means I haven't lost the love of my life, just the biggest mirror

So for you, the strong sexual connection you felt was due to the fact that it filled a deep need. I have recognized that at the time my ex came into my life, I had a huge hole that was filled perfectly by his over the top idealization. I am working in therapy to heal those holes so I don't attract another person like him into my life and want to believe that this kind of connection is possible between two emotionally healthy individuals.

Excerpt
Their fear of their own true self is what keeps them focused on your false self. By mirroring you and idealizing you, they undermine your real self and force you to defend your false self when things start to go downhill.

So sadly, I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the out-of-this-world sexuality is a combination of the BPD idealizing our "false self" and our "false self" soaking up the adoration.

Thanks for your insight and for sharing so openly.



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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2010, 12:19:14 AM »

Excerpt
I must apologize because I think my previous post was a little bit off topic.

It Wasn't. It is exactly what we are talking about. (!)

Excerpt
So sadly, I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the out-of-this-world sexuality is a combination of the BPD idealizing our "false self" and our "false self" soaking up the adoration.

Yes. The openness you felt at first was just a way for the Borderline to seize the opportunity to insert their own reality, and slowly but surely maneuver the relationship down a path *away* from initial trust needed (for fantasy) -The trust was based on the realization that the *both of you could return to reality at any time* and be your true selves- in spite of the fantasy.

When your partner changed the dynamic and left you thinking that you were being victimized-You began to return to reality- a reality that your partner does not share.  And the fantasy of having this trust needed to share with another person was shattered. That is fundamentally heartbreaking.

Unbeknownst to you- this was the plan all along. They can be quite seductive in intimacy- only to have it turn cheap and degrading with the partner feeling used and betrayed. The more anger you have, the more the Borderline is thinking that you are a persecutorial sadist. And this was the Borderline's suspicion all along.

This flip of fantasy and back to a horrible reality is the journey for many enmeshed with a mirroring Borderline. The good news is that the awareness of a Borderline's use of fantasy is sort of like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs-along the way to make the journey back. The fantasy must be grieved, the personality must be investigated and the awareness of the need for fantasy a reminder that it's many people's Achilles heel for BPD.  But dont be too hard on yourself. Many people are able to combine fantasy with reality without it becoming a pre-oedipal dilemma. And that's exactly what Masterson calls the Borderline's need for bondage. A pre-oedipal dilemma of bondage that disallows the real self to emerge- and one that never ends well.

For the rest of us- our real selves do appear- and it's perhaps our greatest work not to let them get covered up by our false self again. Fantasy is easy- Reality is where the real work means something... .
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2010, 02:05:52 AM »

TS -  Great post & can so relate to the sex issue. I recommend the book  "Codependent no more" think the authors name is Melanie Beattie but not sure. It talks a lot about living with an alcoholic but I was able to take some really positive thought processes from it.
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turtlesoup
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2010, 02:42:09 AM »

Hi Guys,

Wow, thanks for all these responses and a few Ims I have to reply to also. I think it is certainly true that I have been looking to recapture and polish up my old false self. In one of the IMs a person mentions to me a book "The Power of now" which really resonates with me because on a different message board (non BPD) I was talking about my total inability to see things around me because I am never in the moment anymore; I now think maybe this is because of my BPD experience and the desperate scrambling to avoid looking at the new emerging self.

I can seemingly no longer be in any moment but my mind is in a constant state of planning for the next event. I am not able to enjoy what is happening at this moment, even with friends or out at dinner because my mind is frantically planning for what I must do later... .but when later arrives my mind jumps forward again. Could this be what 2010 talks about? In relation to the fact I may have prefered fantasy to reality so wont deal with any realities!

OK so *deep breath*

So Schwing - I'd like to one day think of her in this way but I must admit right now, even though I am engaging more with the process that she filled a void/reflected a false self it rankles me to give her any props. I really feel, purposely or not, she brought down my world for cruel/hateful reasons, she wasn't trying to help me fulfill my promise or look at any inner child. I can't find it within myself to give her any credit, I see her as a bad person atm.

2010 - Your analysis of BPD is always so illuminating. You could be right that it isn't a case of classic codependency, I am struggling to put a "label" on what happened... maybe it doesn't need a label like "codependency"

"It was about the internal saboteur of the False Self.  The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists." - Do you imagine then that my run in with the exBPD was something that I propogated and needed to tear down the false self, was I driving this or was I simply unfortunate/fortunate to meet her depending on how you look at it?

I did take on her pain, her accusations and insults and she did seem to regard me less and less as I felt I was loving and helping her more and more. I couldn't see myself anymore, all my hobbies and friends were now a past life and I have been trying to find my way back to that person but can't seem to reignite that passion I held previously for anything. This is because I am coming to terms with a new authentic self?

I think I fight so hard to just return to the start before i met her not only because I recognise it and it's easier but I also feel, if I fundamentally change because of my run in with her then I've let her win. Does that make sense?

CMK: Yes, we also had an issue with her wanting an open relationship initially but I didn't. This was the crux of me leaving the first time only for her 6 months later to tell me she could be monogomous... .of course, she could not in the end and was at least emotionally cheating. I never got the truth about what she was doing but the drama that accompanied that time (pretending to be raped/losing jobs) there was always so much else going on that the fidelity issue became of secondary importance - as did everything that involved what I wanted or felt. I was also not a person into bondage. With me and her, she wanted me to tie her up and hurt her with belts and other things. We explored sex and I was always up for whatever she wanted but I always felt very silly with the bondage as it was not my style. Almost always afterwards she would cry very hard and I was devastated! I would feel terrible because I had done these things she asked and then afterwards she would be in tears and look at me like I were a monster!

I still don't really understand why she did this.

2idealistic - I may be being too self critical but I feel in the past I have been so incredibly easy on myself. I used to be a person who would have shrugged my shoulders and gone "she's nuts" but the truth is, I am frightened to let this one go without giving myself the shaking I need to not do it again. Perhaps I am being too hard on myself I suppose I'll only figure that out in retrospect.

mshell - I love this "incredible combination of psycho/sexual merging" - I have struggled for the words for what happened sexually with the exBPD but I think this encapsulates it nicely. I don't really yearn for the sex the over-riding feeling I have when I think about the sex is that I am fearful or sad that I wont experience such sexual freedom (or bondage! the opposite of freedom?) with someone new. I certainly don't want to instigate anything like what my ex and me shared.

I have come to believe she was fulfilling some need in me but I still haven't worked out what the need was. Perhaps it is, as 2010 alludes to, some need within fantasy that has now been exposed and my authentic self would no longer be drawn to a borderline. This is my biggest fear and is keeping me in at night and turning down offers from women. I am finding excuses to not go on dates! There is a beautiful young Italian woman who has told me she would love to date me, I find her very attractive and instead I come home and play World of Warcraft!

There's a lot of stuff here and in honesty it takes me some time to really go over it and for it to sink in so these are my initial thoughts. again, thanks to everyone who replied Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2010, 02:52:08 AM »

Schwing and 2010... .Thank you for the amazing posts. The posts ring true for me.

2010... .I have ordered that book. I hope it helps. I feel like I've come a long way but do not quite feel like I'm "there" yet where ever there is. It looks to me like you are there... .or if not, much closer than I. I am open to other suggestions. Are there other books that you would recommend? Or other things that may help me along?
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2010, 02:56:22 AM »

I am not ashamed of anything I have done sexually with my ex. Are you feeling shame or is there some other fear?

I apologize if this is too personal.
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2010, 03:25:52 AM »

I am not ashamed of anything I have done sexually with my ex. Are you feeling shame or is there some other fear?

I apologize if this is too personal.

Don't worry I will answer almost any question!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I don't think Im ashamed as much as I am confused. I can't understand why she now hates me for acting out the things she wanted. I have had emails from her telling me that I have raped her, that I have "taken her infront of entire cities" and I've shamed her! But I would never do anything to any woman without consent and indeed she verbally asked me to do these things, she presented the belt in my hand! Its crazy to then accuse this of being my idea and that I am the pervert!

What can I say!
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2010, 03:52:21 AM »

It sounds like she is the one suffering from shame. Did she have a religious background?

My ex did the same. He had a sort of guilty ambivalence about his desires. He was raised Catholic and had kind of a Madonna Whore complex. So was I, but I think you can be a madonna and a whore!  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) (not one or the other. ) There goes the Black/White thinking again.

I sometimes feel I won't ever feel as free sexually. Have you had those feelings?
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2010, 04:16:44 AM »

Yes I do feel that way. I am not overly proud of my body (even though I know in my head there is no real issue here) and that may be where my shame is coming from. She, for the most part and at least in the beginning was great with me and allowed me to express myself and didn't complain, infact she loved (or so i thought) my body and accepted me warts and all (I don't have warts!  Smiling (click to insert in post) )

She was also raised a catholic and has many issues with her sexuality, being bisexual and very sexual too, I think she has shame issues from both her mother and her father who condemned her for lesbian affairs.

I worry I wont feel that way with another woman but Im beginning to think I wont feel that way because I'll never be that man again. Maybe I'll be a better one? And not have to rely on permission to be myself? I dunno, this is all new to me so our talking is very off the cuff. I have no real solid ideas at this point!
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2010, 07:52:38 AM »

Excerpt
They need fresh humanity that does not bear the mark of their own tortured soul.

This statement speaks volumes.  It's like changing a piece of clothing every few minutes because once it's on because it feels dirty.  I saw this with my exBPDbf.  He has been with so many women over his 54 years.  In a sad, introspective moment he said, "I guess I just want the white picket fence thing."  He has had it over and over... .many good women have come his way.  But I guess he is searching for someone he believes will hold that "new" untainted feeling for him.   

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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2010, 09:08:36 AM »

This is a liberating thread for me.  Thanks, everyone, for all of the honest personal insight... .it is invaluable to me.  This has been on my mind for quite a while and I've been waiting for the right moment to let it out:

I've come to a point in this healing process where I realize that this part of me that longs for my ex is the false self that developed while I was with her.  I, ":)avid Dare", fully acknowledge and understand the lessons I've learned from studying BPD and applying them while retro-examining the relationship.  However, this part of me that longs for her, this nagging thorn in my mind that won't fully accept the logical implications of what has happened is not ":)avid Dare".

The false self has existed within me for a very long time.  It was a burning coal which was stoked into a raging forest fire by the mirroring of my ex.  It grew out of control via idealization.  I felt it building and growing hotter every step of the way.  ":)D" had his doubts, but the false self ate her up in fistfuls.  Before I knew what was happening, the false self was in complete control.  It wasn't until after many weeks that I could step back and see it for what it is, and now I am facing it head on, dismantling it.

The relationship was relatively short (3 months), and I sometimes ask myself how I could have changed so quickly?  It took me a while to realize that during my blind reverie I had spent 6 straight weeks with nobody but her.  My addiction for her was on full tilt.  We were sucking each other dry psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually.  A couple of friends refer to that time as my "disappearance", as I had practically fallen off the radar overnight.  Many of them had no idea where I was staying.

My inner-child came out right away during that time.  I would wonder "Am I doing this or is she pulling it out of me?".  There was no doubt that at that time she was my perceived "soulmate", however it should be defined.

Another thing that was so strange to me, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but she seemed to be fully knowledgeable of being PD'd without actually labeling it as such.  She told me she acts on cycles, was feeling fight or flight, tried to look at the gray, that we were mirror images, etc.  It seemed very methodical, and perhaps I should have started Googling then rather than after the fact.  So, for me personally, I wonder if I was victimized by a "professional" so to speak, someone who knew exactly what to expect, knew the end of it before it even began, pumping my false self to it's peak.

The time I saw her to say my final goodbye, a few weeks after I had learned that she cheated on me while I was out of town, I was amazed at how differently she acted.  The only part of it that seemed like the ex I knew was when she said, "It's gonna be okay".  Everything else, about ten minutes of small talk, was like communicating with a stranger.  Now I know why.  Her false self had exited the building, and so had mine.

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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2010, 03:11:58 PM »

@Turtlesoup

I worry I wont feel that way with another woman but Im beginning to think I wont feel that way because I'll never be that man again. Maybe I'll be a better one? And not have to rely on permission to be myself? I dunno, this is all new to me so our talking is very off the cuff. I have no real solid ideas at this point!

I understand this concern.  I don't know how you will choose to approach this problem, but here is how I came to address it: In my case, I needed that intense feeling (of a BPD relationship) in order to overcome the fear I had within me.  I was so deeply afraid of rejection and ultimately of intimacy that I NEEDED such intense feelings in order to overcome my trepidation.  I needed the intensity and perhaps also the familiarity in order to engage some deep and dysfunctional issues I had as a result of my upbringing (thanks mom).

I came to realize that the women with whom I had such chemistry, are harbingers of a great deal of pain.  I decided it would be better for me to work through these personal issues without recreating them in my intimate interpersonal relationships (ie, such as in therapy as 2010 suggests).  So I did have to give up this "feeling."  Because I decided it would not lead me towards happiness.  I chose to believe that happiness can be obtained on a different path.  And I did have to alter my definition of "happiness."  And I am confident that my current definition is improved over my prior beliefs.

You may not be able to "feel that way with another woman" but you need to consider that how you felt is at least as dependent upon you (and your relationship with yourself) as it is on the behavior of other women.  Other people don't "make" you feel any way without your consent.  How you feel about the next woman, may depend on you as much as it does on her.

@David Dare

Another thing that was so strange to me, and I'm sorry if this is off topic, but she seemed to be fully knowledgeable of being PD'd without actually labeling it as such.  She told me she acts on cycles, was feeling fight or flight, tried to look at the gray, that we were mirror images, etc.  It seemed very methodical, and perhaps I should have started Googling then rather than after the fact.  So, for me personally, I wonder if I was victimized by a "professional" so to speak, someone who knew exactly what to expect, knew the end of it before it even began, pumping my false self to it's peak.

My understanding of people with BPD (pwBPD) is that intellectually, cognitively they can be brilliant.  And when there is sufficient objectivity in their interpersonal relationships (ie, emotional distance) such as when the relationship is very new, they can recall their cycles and behaviors.  But the minute their emotions come into play, it overwhelms them (especially when they lack any training/therapy to temper these intense feelings).

As I see it, each time they start a new relationship, they desperately want to believe that this time it will be different.  If they truly believed that it would all end the same, then why go through the motions?  Why not try to break the cycle?  Why not work towards recovery? 

I think it is an act, a front.  Pretend that you know exactly what you are doing, know what to expect because you choose it; when in actuality, you have no choice in the outcome.  When your only choice is whether or not to continue doing what hasn't been working for you all this time.  And it is too painful for you to even try.  It is easier to give up on yourself when you pin all your (unconscious) hopes on the other person.

@2010

Thank you for your insight, explanations and quotes from Masterson's book.  I will have to give that book a read.
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2010, 03:40:36 PM »

David Dare

Have you read the Masterson book also?

This thread has started an itch in my brain and got me to thinking. The accounts by 2010 and David Dare have been ringing true with me, but where do I go from here?
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2010, 03:56:49 PM »

"I've come to a point in this healing process where I realize that this part of me that longs for my ex is the false self that developed while I was with her."

Is that "false self" you mentioned kind of like the result of their thought reform or the person they trained you to be?
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 06:55:28 PM »

Schwing,

"Other people don't make any way without your consent."

I believe this is true. However, I have felt that it takes a lot for me to feel comfortable enough to expose myself intimately with someone. Maybe because my BPDex was so different sexually from anyone I had been with, I felt comfortable to do things and experience things I had never done before. I am 44 yrs old, divorced once and have had a far number of sex partners in my life! Yet, sexually, I had grown more with my exBPDbf in 2 years than I had with all the others combined. What is that about? Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2010, 03:47:40 AM »

"I've come to a point in this healing process where I realize that this part of me that longs for my ex is the false self that developed while I was with her."

Is that "false self" you mentioned kind of like the result of their thought reform or the person they trained you to be?

Great question.  This is tough to put into words.  I will do my best.

The false self was created as the result of fullfilling a fantasy that has existed since childhood.  It's not a vivid fantasy, like one I dwelled on all the time for many years.  It's more like a vague fantasy of reaching a point in life where my lovequest had been fullfilled.

The problem is that in reality it hadn't been fullfilled.  Maybe for a brief period.  It was simply my belief that it was fullfilled that allowed it to be so.  At this juncture, my false self was an impeccable image that I wanted to convey to the rest of the world.  This impeccable image could only exist in proximity of the impeccable image I constructed of ex.  If her image became flawed, then so did mine.  Part of the false self's function was to constantly view my ex as perfect so it could sustain it's own false perfection.

So I let my guard down and shared many personal thoughts and ideas with my ex, stuff I wouldn't tell anyone else or even share here.  It is too personal.  She went right along with it, "mirrored" it, validating the false self into supreme existence.  Everything was going perfectly, too perfectly.

Was it thought reform?  I would say yes, but more like she allowed me to reform myself.  She allowed me to believe that I was the false self, and that the false self was sustainable.  She didn't have to try.  To blame her or give her credit for it would not be correct.  I wanted to be that false self.  I "trained" myself.  At the time, it felt so good, there was no worry as to where this would lead or that it was even happening other than subtle pangs of doubt that went ignored.

It happened at such a rapid pace that there was no time for introspective evaluation in the moment.  Finding a crack in her facade would reveal one in mine.  I knew that the circumstance I was in was too good to believe, but I never had time to sit back and analyze the reality of it.  I was caught up in the blissfulness that the false self reveled in.

It's when the dysfunctional truth of our r/s started to emerge that the false self began to "outthink" the real self.  Everything strange and inconsistant was rationalized.  Think of it like a mental mechanism growing bigger and weaker as time went along.  The more I rationalized things, the larger the mechanism became, the harder it was to sustain.  The damage is done when the false self is suffering but is so detached from the true self for it to register as pain.  The pain was completely numbed until the r/s fell apart and I was left to confront the reality that I had changed and was actually in severe emotional pain.

It took weeks of NC for my feelings to become more manageable to a point where I wasn't thinking about her every second of the day.  There were times, though, when my thoughts would focus on her and became very deeply felt, like I was mesmorizing myself.  This is when I began to notice the other self.  It is like a different me.  I recognized it as the return of the mechanism, the one constructed while I was with her, trying to regain a foothold over my consciousness.  

I'm not a professional psychologist, but I would presume that coming to conclusions such as this take time and honest introspection.  I would also argue that although such realizations of oneself are a milestone in terms of recovery, it also leads to new challenges, particularly, as Turtlesoup mentions, how to avoid returning to that mindset and staving off pangs of idealization nostalgia that temp us to desire that feeling again.  The goal, I imagine, is to gain wisdom from the experience while also examining what brought the false self into such powerful existence and what aspects of it were most damaging.  What were it's qualities, what were it's liabilities.  This takes time.

I have not read the Masterson book, but it sounds like one of many that I would like to read.  For me, I've relied on this website and other online literature to help me sort this out.  Going NC was an absolute must.  And allowing time to help heal and lift the fog.  

Schwing, thanks for your reply.  I agree.  She expressed a desire to "maintain balance" as she puts it, but when it came time to admit responsibility for her transgressions she would put the blame on everyone else but her.  I was just so stunned to find that what I was learning about BPD echoed much of her own verbage.  It was kind of creepy.




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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2010, 04:45:29 AM »

Thanks for the reply!

I followed you for three paragraphs and then started to get lost a bit. I need time to mull over it a bit. What online literature do you suggest?
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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2010, 04:56:08 AM »

Ha!  Sorry, I get a bit long-winded.  I think the short answer would be yes, I think it's thought reform, but I don't think it's the result of external efforts to manipulate thoughts.  I think it is one part discovering an emotional utopia when we get involved with our BPD lover, and one part us conforming ourselves to try and fit the BPD mold and sustain the relationship.

I am at work with a subpar browser that doesn't allow multipage viewing, but google "BPD relationship recovery" and go to the "Me Project".  It is an extensive blog written by someone who recovered from a BPD relationship.
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« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2010, 05:03:44 AM »

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like 6 of 1, half dozen of another. haha. I was thinking of it as the BPD training us to fit the BPD mold and we going along with it and it sounds like you are saying we are molding ourselves to it and them going along.

Thanks for the resources... .I've read some, but not the Me project. I will check it out.
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« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2010, 05:04:38 AM »

ps. I don't think it was long winded... .I'm still struggling to wrap my head around the whole thing!
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« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2010, 05:04:46 AM »

@Turtlesoup

I worry I wont feel that way with another woman but Im beginning to think I wont feel that way because I'll never be that man again. Maybe I'll be a better one? And not have to rely on permission to be myself? I dunno, this is all new to me so our talking is very off the cuff. I have no real solid ideas at this point!

I understand this concern.  I don't know how you will choose to approach this problem, but here is how I came to address it: In my case, I needed that intense feeling (of a BPD relationship) in order to overcome the fear I had within me.  I was so deeply afraid of rejection and ultimately of intimacy that I NEEDED such intense feelings in order to overcome my trepidation.  I needed the intensity and perhaps also the familiarity in order to engage some deep and dysfunctional issues I had as a result of my upbringing (thanks mom).

I came to realize that the women with whom I had such chemistry, are harbingers of a great deal of pain.  I decided it would be better for me to work through these personal issues without recreating them in my intimate interpersonal relationships (ie, such as in therapy as 2010 suggests).  So I did have to give up this "feeling."  Because I decided it would not lead me towards happiness.  I chose to believe that happiness can be obtained on a different path.  And I did have to alter my definition of "happiness."  And I am confident that my current definition is improved over my prior beliefs.

You may not be able to "feel that way with another woman" but you need to consider that how you felt is at least as dependent upon you (and your relationship with yourself) as it is on the behavior of other women.  Other people don't "make" you feel any way without your consent.  How you feel about the next woman, may depend on you as much as it does on her.

Thanks Schwing,

In one way its a funny thing to worry about because I am only engaging with women quite rarely, been on two dates, one of which turned into a mini relationship with another inappropriate woman but at least I cut it short at the  |> stage. Which I am happy to think is progress on my part. I suppose you can not rush "being ready" as it's something that comes with time and reflection so worrying about how I may feel with another woman may be a pointless worry at this moment as I am no clairvoyant.

It is important to realise that indeed, how I will come to feel is about me and I'm going to look at this positively and try to use it as a catalyst for change and maybe then I will attract the kinds women that are suitable for me postBPD!

Again, thanks for your input and its great to see so many ideas in this thread from everyone.
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« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2010, 05:30:20 AM »

RedRightHand:

To be honest, it is definitely possible that my ex or other people out there deliberately mold their partner's thoughts.  The problem is, how would we ever know?  Even if they admit to it, it could just be another expost facto lie to bloat their ego.

At first, yes, I felt like a victim, like she did it intentionally.  It was because I was hurting so much.  I eventually realized that I'll never really know, and to put the onus on her was copping out of my own responsibilty in the matter.
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« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2010, 06:21:52 AM »

RedRightHand:

To be honest, it is definitely possible that my ex or other people out there deliberately mold their partner's thoughts.  The problem is, how would we ever know?  Even if they admit to it, it could just be another expost facto lie to bloat their ego.

At first, yes, I felt like a victim, like she did it intentionally.  It was because I was hurting so much.  I eventually realized that I'll never really know, and to put the onus on her was copping out of my own responsibilty in the matter.

Point taken. I do not think we will ever know. I believe the disorder sets out to mold their partners into something that suits the disorder.
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« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2010, 06:58:36 PM »

i wonder... .is it a false self or just another aspect of your personality, albeit a lesser part. I think that even Nons have a dominant personality as well as lesser parts. What if your lesser part just took over with her?

(Maybe I am understanding false self incorrectly.)
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« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2010, 10:30:54 PM »

Point taken. I do not think we will ever know. I believe the disorder sets out to mold their partners into something that suits the disorder.

Agreed.  My ex was like a host for carrying the disorder.  It's kind of sad, really.\

i wonder... .is it a false self or just another aspect of your personality, albeit a lesser part. I think that even Nons have a dominant personality as well as lesser parts. What if your lesser part just took over with her?

(Maybe I am understanding false self incorrectly.)

You could be right.  It's hard to precisely define.  I am no professional, like I say.  I just know that as time has passed and the fog lifts my perspective has changed.  I'm not taking it quite as personally, which allows me to look at myself a little more objectively.  And with this new objectivity I sometimes notice myself drifting back into thought processes that only existed while I was with my ex, and the feelings start to burn again.

It's tough to describe.  I consider "false self" as a part of my personality.  It wasn't like everything had changed.  It was more like dealing with something that was new to me which carried these powerful feelings, causing me to try new things as I adapted.  They caused me to think differently, mostly to try and numb the absurdity of what I was involved with.  I could explain it a hundred different ways if I took the time.

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« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2010, 11:19:14 PM »

David,

Thanks for taking the time to try to explain it to me. I feel like Nons have different aspects to our personalities which can shine in different situations. It is different with pwBPD. They really don't have one baseline sense of self so they can change so drastically from situation to situation as needed for their purposes.
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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2010, 09:44:00 PM »

Excerpt
I don't have to stand with my mouth agog wondering how someone could be so careless and hurtful, how they could talk of a future to your face and be cheating behind your back, because it's not about her, its about me, and its the most freeing realisation I've had thus far.

Thanks for your post, turtle. I'm also at about 6 months and I'm coming to the same conclusions. Perhaps I never knew what love really is. I've had three of these intense abusive relationships with BPD women (2 diagnosed, 1 likely). This one was enough to make me finally question my assumptions about "falling in love".  Working on it with a therapist now, too.

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« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2010, 09:46:00 PM »

Excerpt
Is that "false self" you mentioned kind of like the result of their thought reform or the person they trained you to be?

A false self hides your inner child for protection against the thought that *you are insignificant, don’t exist, are unworthy, unlovable, doomed to a horrible outcome... .* The false self prevents these deeply repressed thoughts from surfacing. This is a primitive form of your own *splitting* concerning yourself.

When the false self doesn’t work anymore- it’s been challenged. And the only time it was ever challenged in the past was when it was being formed.

It involves your earliest survival instincts to attach to your first object; Mother. It is considered pre-oedipal- meaning it comes before Father enters the picture- at the age between 18 mos. and 3 years, coincidentally, at the time you are beginning to walk, explore and develop the “self.”

And yes, it’s all your Mother’s doing- with a slam dunk refinishing by your Father, once you reach the Oedipal stage- but it’s the earliest object (Mother) that sets the mood for abandonment or engulfment.

Was she able to allow you the freedom to become your own person? (Smothering, Doting, Spoiling = engulfment) Was she there when you returned from exploring? Was she available for support or encouragement? Yes/No? (Neglect, Absenteeism = abandonment)

A child seeks to understand what life is meant to be- (Questions: am I supposed to stay here with Mommy? Can I explore elsewhere? Will Mommy allow it if I go and then return? Will she be mad? All of these questions are determined by the earliest attachment- the earliest role model- the caretaker = and our SURVIVAL depended upon her. The false self was what we had to come up with to please her- by determining what was valuable to her- and guarantee our survival (bond) -this set our survival skill set into our adult lives with OTHER people.

Relying too heavily on this false solution meant the child eliminated the chance at a real self, (one that was REAL and not reactive to capricious and punitive caretakers who were responsible for survival.)

Our false self protected our real person from being hurt. Years later as adults, we select people to hear the same message we learned as children- and we attract them with our false selves- because the false self is what we used initially to help us with the parent.

Scenario 1:

Act i: A child has learned that the greatest valuation is compliance. Thoughtful, respectful, shielded, honorable, valuable. These children sometimes act as little therapists for the family- mediating, caretaking. Their false selves hide the fact that they wish someone would take care of them. They are, in fact, little “parents.”

Fast forward: The child grows into a very capable, considerate, caring adult child- whose self esteem is based on “good.” Their entire lives have been an effort to prove how good they are- and a certain psychological construct is formed of being a Hero/Heroine.

Deep down they wish others would acknowledge the sacrifices they’ve made and see the good- that they see in themselves.

Act ii: Enter Romantic interest- one who mirrors the good and shows an incredible, life affirming spot light of interest in the false self. The adult child thinks, “Finally! My love has arrived! Another human being sees the “good” in me- and I have been proven right. I AM a good person. I can solve anything. I am gifted. I will show this romance that I have come through difficulties and emerged as a mature force. I understand life.”

Act iii. Romantic interest mirrors the false self of the adult child- “yes, I am also a good person. I can solve anything (with you by my side) I see the good in you- BUT you see the good in me too. I am your Hero/Heroine. I will save you.” This is the false self of the Borderline- who has attached to a Host. The substitute stand-in for the Parent.

Act iv: The false self of the Adult Child goes down temporarily due to hidden fears.  The real self emerges- “perhaps Im not as all good as I thought.” The romantic partner, who is now a stand-in for the parent -is she available for support or encouragement? Yes/No? 

No- the romantic partner has substituted the adult child for her own stand-in- the smothering, hypercritical parent. The romantic partner hears “UNHAPPY, FEAR, BAD, WRONG…” and it’s just a flick of the switch to re-live her early childhood.

The idealization of each other has now confirmed each other’s greatest fear- that the real self is lacking- but also, that the false self is no longer WORKING to offset the fear.

Masterson felt that the quest in therapy was to show the reaction formations and reasoning for creation of the false self. This was done in a transference setting with a therapist as a stand-in for the parent- the patient would project onto the therapist the reactive formation- the therapist would identify it and then gently guide and re-program the reactive formations to better suit the true self.

But how many people actually get the chance to do this? How many people actually go into therapy (unless they’ve had a severe crisis?) Most people continue on through their lives with their false selves in place and do just fine.

It’s only when you choose a partner that pushes you into a hard place- that you really understand that’s it’s just your real self fighting to get back to the surface. It’s covered in crud and dying to get a breath.

Act v: Stop fighting with it and let it through. Understand, and grieve the old self. It’s no longer serviceable. Uncover the real you. Your romantic interest was just a tool (literally and figuratively) that dug deep.   

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« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2010, 12:43:49 AM »

2010, thanks for making me aware of the Masterson book. These are potent ideas and I see here a model for how my r/s with my exBPDw operated.  Idea

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« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2010, 12:50:46 AM »

need to explore:

which is my false self? I think there are more than one ... .

primary (from childhood) false self: helping and wanting to fix things. being the hero and rescuer. taking abuse and remaining calm, forgiving any wrong. "jesus complex"

secondary (from adolescence?) false self: tough guy, a fighter, good in bed, won't take any flak.

THE 1mil $$ question… what is my real self?
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« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2010, 12:57:09 AM »

Thanks 2010. Your insightful replies help me make meaning of the nightmare that was an 18 month relationship with a high-functioning BPD ex. Understanding a bit of the etiology helps my emotions to temporarily disengage from the shame and pain I feel.

Excerpt
But how many people actually get the chance to do this? How many people actually go into therapy (unless they’ve had a severe crisis?) Most people continue on through their lives with their false selves in place and do just fine.

It’s only when you choose a partner that pushes you into a hard place- that you really understand that’s it’s just your real self fighting to get back to the surface. It’s covered in crud and dying to get a breath.

Act v: Stop fighting with it and let it through. Understand, and grieve the old self. It’s no longer serviceable. Uncover the real you. Your romantic interest was just a tool (literally and figuratively) that dug deep.

Well said. So, I *did* choose him? It is hard to feel any amount of gratitude for the experience of being cast into the role of scapegoat. He was adamant that although his mother tried to sabotage his life and his ex-wife cruelly rejected him over a decade, that he brought none of this into the relationship. He even told me that the sacrifice of loving me, a Japanese American woman, brought his father's life full circle, since his father killed Japanese soldiers during WWII.

Rather than a romantic ending to his next screenplay, it feels to me like a repeat of past pain. He hit a grand slam when he dumped me. I became the stand-in for his bad mother and his bad ex-wife. I am the bad whore who broke his spirit, and the bad J*p whose sacrifice redeemed his father's life. I was eviscerated and left to die in a ditch just like his father had done during the war. Easier to "kill" me than look at his own pain. You can imagine how this went over when I said it. Dumb, I know. How could he ever admit this?

I am in heavy duty psychotherapy trying to deal with the fallout. I must accept that a relationship with him will never work out, no matter how deeply I though it was "love". Dropping the false self means having to stare straight into the possible abyss that might be my own real self.

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« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2010, 02:27:35 AM »

2010

Thanks for the explanation!... .it rings quite a few bells for me except for the when and how. Do you think it is possible to develop a false self on your own and later? or maybe a different way (such as Father) later in developement?
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« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2010, 04:10:32 AM »

Great post for the 'emergence' of healing ones self, which, I believe is the journey we all have to go through after a relationship with BPD.

I can relate to the 'false self' in a Don Juan sort of way... .when he is getting Carlos to face his fears.  I don't know if its the semantics but 'for me' who I was in the BPD r/s was any thing but false. 

What I was, that has been exposed to me, was a very insecure, fearful, vulnerable, wounded person that I need to help, to not feel that way.  I guess you could call it a 'false self', but it was very real and I didn't just make it up, or become that way because of this relationship.  That part of myself has been there for a long time and BPD made me face that and exposed it to me. 

So, I think the 'authentic self' , for me is the part of me that is healing and taking care of those issues to becoming whole, and self loving and secure within myself.  I guess I don't want to reject a 'false self' and deny it (oh, that wasn't me, it was just the cause of a relationship to BPD person), put it on a book self, or discard it.  Because it will still need 'fixin' if I don't fix it.

I know this is just another way of saying the same thing, but it seems important to me.  And I do love your posts 2010, youv'e taught me alot .thanks  Reneeth
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« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2010, 05:50:39 PM »

Excerpt
It’s only when you choose a partner that pushes you into a hard place- that you really understand that’s it’s just your real self fighting to get back to the surface. It’s covered in crud and dying to get a breath.

This jumped out at me and made me say right out loud, "Aha!" 
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« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2010, 10:00:45 PM »

Makes me glad that now that mine wouldn't have sex.  I think he was a narcissist. Cerebral asexual.
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« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2010, 10:43:57 PM »

Thanks for the great post, 2010. 

False self or not, the bottom line for me is that the r/s wouldn't have worked regardless of which self was in action.  That is an important conclusion, because for me, early on,  I would think about ways the r/s might have been sustained, what I could have done differently, etc.  The truth is that the long term potential wasn't there, and I was always hoping it could be, or pretending that it was.  It didn't help much that she would express a mutual commitment, but like they say, and I read so many times here, her actions never cashed the checks her mouth was writing.

And I believe there was another dynamic at play as it seemed like we were both sustaining false selfs, which makes me wonder who triggered who.  Would I have experienced that false self if I hadn't been dealing with her's, or did it happen on my own?  It was probably a mixture of both.

I believe I'm getting to a point where the last step is to just completely forget about her.  Chalk it up as what it was, a learning experience, and see that I was with the wrong person at the wrong time.  It was fun, then it was horrible, then it was over, and then I recovered.  Almost... .
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« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2010, 11:05:47 PM »

Excerpt
And I believe there was another dynamic at play as it seemed like we were both sustaining false selfs, which makes me wonder who triggered who. 

Wow, this is SO true.  I totally get this now.  And in the end, it makes no difference, really, who triggered who.  What is important is that the real connection, true self to true self, never actually took place.  What remains now is the willingness to form a relationship with ourselves that is authentic... .that is first and foremost.  Only after that can we venture out to practice relating to others from our authentic selves. I imagine it will be like learning to talk or learning to walk, will take time and patience and practice.
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« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2010, 12:06:37 AM »

This is such a great thread. This idea of "false self" has me thinking alot. It rings true on many levels and I've even said I'm not the same person I was then. I've grown and learned alot about myself after/because of the BPD relationship. I've called myself naive,gullible and innocent back then... .too nice, too trusting, too willing to forgive, too loyal... .do you think that might be the "false self"? or parts of it? The whole concept makes me feel like I'm sorta on the right track for some more self discovery but I'm still struggling with the idea of how my responsibility comes into play with it. I do not feel like I've done anything intentionally about creating a false self, but then that makes me sound like I'm trying to be a victim.
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« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2010, 12:35:06 AM »

Excerpt
I do not feel like I've done anything intentionally about creating a false self, but then that makes me sound like I'm trying to be a victim.

The false self was created to protect the wounded inner child.  It is a defense mechanism and was created on a totally unconscious level.  The creation of the false self is not something to feel shameful or guilty about. It is a very typical reaction.  Once we recognize it in ourselves, we can also recognize it in others, without blame or shame.  It's a hopeful thing IMO.  It means we can change if we work hard enough and want it badly enough. 
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« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2010, 02:24:17 AM »

In my case I was creating a false sense, a false future and a false rel. the whole thing was based on "when she gets better". This was fuelled by her own words that things would, indeed, get better if I clung on. Ive said before how I knew really that I didn't like the situation, her words and reactions, i wanted to return to the feelings I only caught glimpses of and that was held up in my mind as out future. All based on hope not reality.

Maybe a big part of our upset and despair is the fact that most of us here have given up that hope, that's the loss I dealt with. I don't now and never really did the miss the here and now with her.
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« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2010, 06:31:39 AM »

Excerpt
And I believe there was another dynamic at play as it seemed like we were both sustaining false selfs, which makes me wonder who triggered who. 

Wow, this is SO true.  I totally get this now.  And in the end, it makes no difference, really, who triggered who.  What is important is that the real connection, true self to true self, never actually took place.  What remains now is the willingness to form a relationship with ourselves that is authentic... .that is first and foremost.  Only after that can we venture out to practice relating to others from our authentic selves. I imagine it will be like learning to talk or learning to walk, will take time and patience and practice.

Because if we want someone with the right qualities we have to possess them ourselves.
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« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2010, 06:47:54 AM »

Excerpt
I do not feel like I've done anything intentionally about creating a false self, but then that makes me sound like I'm trying to be a victim.

The false self was created to protect the wounded inner child.  It is a defense mechanism and was created on a totally unconscious level.  The creation of the false self is not something to feel shameful or guilty about. It is a very typical reaction.  Once we recognize it in ourselves, we can also recognize it in others, without blame or shame.  It's a hopeful thing IMO.  It means we can change if we work hard enough and want it badly enough. 

This makes much sense to me. I believe I did (and do) recognize it in the "me" I was in that relationship and probably before that... .if that makes sense... .but I also believe at some point post BPD relationship -something changed about me AND the way I see it in others. The name "false self" still doesn't sit well with me but maybe that's the shame thing. How would one know if they changed and lost that false self? How would one know if there was still work to be done with oneself? What would one do to change and lose that false self? This is sorta very surreal for me right now because I've actually said words like "I've finally learned who the real me is" recently. I do feel like I've changed and the way I see others has changed. I can now see Toxic people and PDs very clearly in my personal life. I've established boundaries in my personal life. Much has changed in my life except I cannot get over the feeling of a lingering hook in me from my Ex BPD GF. I still have intrusive thoughts of her and I do not like it. I feel like I've stalled out in my recovery and growth and am in need of direction. This thread and the concept of false self feels like the right track but also feels somewhat allusive and just out of my grasp. arrgh! I hate havin an itch I cannot quite scratch!

In my case I was creating a false sense, a false future and a false rel. the whole thing was based on "when she gets better". This was fuelled by her own words that things would, indeed, get better if I clung on. Ive said before how I knew really that I didn't like the situation, her words and reactions, i wanted to return to the feelings I only caught glimpses of and that was held up in my mind as out future. All based on hope not reality.

Maybe a big part of our upset and despair is the fact that most of us here have given up that hope, that's the loss I dealt with. I don't now and never really did the miss the here and now with her.

I think that hope I clung to is related to this false self concept. False self with a false future. A self deception that she used to manipulate me and serve her needs and disorder. It also made it very easy for her to lie to me and have me believe it. All she had to do was tailor every lie to that false future!
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« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2010, 11:59:43 AM »

Excerpt
The name "false self" still doesn't sit well with me but maybe that's the shame thing.

RedRH, I believe the term "false" is used because it refers to adaptive behaviors that we learn and take on early in life to help us cope with inter-relational dysfunctions.  These adaptations are not our true nature, but are taken up, like slipping on a coat to protect ourselves from the weather.   If it protects us and keeps us warm and safe, we incorporate it into our personalities.  Eventually, it becomes so much a part of us that we can no longer imagine our bodies without our coats on.  It's like that.  Not a shameful thing at all.

It's amazing how this process works, how threads like this can stimulate questions and further avenues of growth for us.  It's like we are all on a quest, our own personal Hero's Quest, each quest unique and yet the search is the same.  I laughed at your "itch" that you can't quite scratch.  I get that all the time, Red. 

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« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2010, 02:29:21 PM »

Excerpt
The name "false self" still doesn't sit well with me but maybe that's the shame thing.

RedRH, I believe the term "false" is used because it refers to adaptive behaviors that we learn and take on early in life to help us cope with inter-relational dysfunctions.  These adaptations are not our true nature, but are taken up, like slipping on a coat to protect ourselves from the weather.   If it protects us and keeps us warm and safe, we incorporate it into our personalities.  Eventually, it becomes so much a part of us that we can no longer imagine our bodies without our coats on.  It's like that.  Not a shameful thing at all.


Would you be kind enought to point me in a direction of a resource from which I could learn more about this and how to eliminate it?
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« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2010, 04:02:29 PM »

This one looks promising... .

www.amazon.com/Search-Real-Self-Unmasking-Personality/dp/0029202922/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279659669&sr=8-24

Smiling (click to insert in post) CS
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« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2010, 04:35:07 PM »

Turtle - haven't been on here for ages but mainly came on now to see how you were keeping. And with the greatest respect, genuinely, what on earth are you going on about? Your many posts mark you as a great guy. A great guy who simply encountered a lesser individual who despite your characteristic best efforts, is both beyond and unworthy of your help! As you will come to realise, nothing that requires too much self analysis, just a setback. A setback, as I know you realise,  infinitesimally smaller than the young Afghan who just lost all four limbs. A good looking lad with a caring heart. With no need for self examination, just a realisation of the fact along with a resolve to be yourself. Don't let a bag of snot impair a person possessed of the quality to be a great husband and dad his children will be proud of. Come on lad, you are FAR too good to allow yourself to be downtrodden. x  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

seeker.   
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« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2010, 04:53:50 PM »

In my case I was creating a false sense, a false future and a false rel. the whole thing was based on "when she gets better". This was fuelled by her own words that things would, indeed, get better if I clung on. Ive said before how I knew really that I didn't like the situation, her words and reactions, i wanted to return to the feelings I only caught glimpses of and that was held up in my mind as out future. All based on hope not reality.

Maybe a big part of our upset and despair is the fact that most of us here have given up that hope, that's the loss I dealt with. I don't now and never really did the miss the here and now with her.

Interesting take.  I like the usage of "False Sense".  Like a false sense of security.  That was what it was like for me.  Actually, almost everything about it was false.  I no longer look at it like I was dealing with a person, but with the PD.  

The only here and now that I enjoyed was the beginning.  After that, no, it wasn't very enjoyable.  And I remember being sad all the time, looking at her, how beautiful she is, thinking about how great it would be if we could get on the same page.  Insert (false) hope for the future.  

All the conversations, flirting, admiration, flashes of affection, all false.  All the yelling, lying, inconstancies, infidelity, all true.

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« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2010, 06:11:57 PM »

Am I the only one who is getting depressed by this thread? I just can't believe that all the good was "false" and all the bad "real". I just find that way too depressing. I think people are both bad and good. BPDs included.
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« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2010, 02:55:34 AM »

Am I the only one who is getting depressed by this thread? I just can't believe that all the good was "false" and all the bad "real". I just find that way too depressing. I think people are both bad and good. BPDs included.

I don't think that's what I am saying, dunno about the others. It's not a question of all good and all bad for me it's a question of my own pain seeking out and coupling with hers, even though they were very different, I was a fit for her and since coming out of that relationship I am accepting it and using my new realisations to fuel my life, all aspects. Since i've found my new way to self soothe, to feel alive for now and not looking at a projected future or unimportant past I am much happier. This is not a depressing thread - at least for my account, it's a joyous one!
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« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2010, 03:13:36 AM »

Actually, your posts aren't the one that are depressing me. It is some of the others.
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« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2010, 03:54:23 AM »


I already ordered this one as a result of reading a post from 2010 a couple of days ago. Thanks for the tips! I've been checking some stuff out. I really need to learn more about false self as some of it seems to apply. Some of the info seems way off track from certain sources but I need a good over view.

Am I the only one who is getting depressed by this thread? I just can't believe that all the good was "false" and all the bad "real". I just find that way too depressing. I think people are both bad and good. BPDs included.

I'm not getting depressed by this thread. On the contrary, it is giving mea reason to have hope. I don't believe people are bad or good or both... .people are just people. It's actions and behaviors that are neutral or bad or good.
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« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2010, 04:13:24 AM »

Of course I meant behavior and actions, not people. LOL
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« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2010, 10:20:43 AM »

I have been following the thread and I think the topic and posts have been great. I've gotten a lot of good info to think about from it.
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« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2010, 02:05:01 PM »

I know that I have really learned to have compassion for myself as I have studied and learned and reflected on my just horrible rollercoaster of a BPD relationship.

And it lets me have a small amount of compassion for her. Instead of all the hatred which stemmed from all the name calling, yelling, abusive powercontrol of her smile, sex... .ugh... .

Compassion, give it to yourself first. "They" (our BPD) won't (can't!) give it to you.

*sigh*
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« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2010, 02:39:04 PM »

Speaking for myself and my situation, the only real good that came out of my r/s are the lessons learned.  And, looking at it like I do helps me to forget about her.  There were some great times, at the beach, in the bedroom, etc, but why cling to the "good" (real) memories?  Where is she now?  I doubt I will ever see her again, so why hold onto the "good" (real)?  And, quite frankly, there was more bad than good.  Or, perhaps more fake than real is a better way to describe it.  I don't want to think about her anymore.  It just starts the whole, "what was real/ what was fake" mental debate to play out again.  I just can't get emotionally invested in her again, even if it's in memory.
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« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2010, 04:21:36 PM »

  There were some great times, at the beach, in the bedroom, etc, but why cling to the "good" (real) memories?  Where is she now?  I doubt I will ever see her again, so why hold onto the "good" (real)?  And, quite frankly, there was more bad than good.  Or, perhaps more fake than real is a better way to describe it.  I don't want to think about her anymore.  It just starts the whole, "what was real/ what was fake" mental debate to play out again. 

I think our perceptions were real for us, but they were presenting a fake persona to us. BPDs most certainly present fake fronts to their BFs/husbands. I believe some of it is part of their cycle of relationships dynamics and serves a purpose of their disorder on a subconcious level... .they are not aware of it. That is sad. I also know a part of it is 100% conscious deception on their part and that involves both hiding "things" from us and being fake to us in various ways. This part is rather insidious and not only involves serving the disorders need to conceal itself but also the BPDs intentional and cruel punishment of the BF/husband. This abuse is most likely a transference of all the rage from early trauma... .i.e. They are punishing you for their father sexually abusing them at 4 years old! They are not aware of why they are punishing you, but they are aware that they are being cruel and they do it anyway! They even gain some pleasure from doing it. This part makes me angry.
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« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2010, 06:00:03 PM »

Redrighthand,

I understand where you are coming from, I just don't like to think that it is like this for all BPDs. Yes they do evil and abusive things, but to think that they are purposefully doing things that are cruel makes them out to be sadists or sociopaths. I don't think they all are.
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« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2010, 06:59:41 PM »

Excerpt
I think our perceptions were real for us, but they were presenting a fake persona to us.

Yes, you are correct. It is fake- but it is *your* fake persona that they are presenting back to you. They are mirroring you. You see, Borderline isn't about some vengeful retribution of a fatherly betrayal- it is about not being able to form a "real self." Borderlines have no idea what a real self means. Everything they do is a mirroring of another person. Their entire lives have been attached to others- like children on a leash. They haven't been allowed to go out into the World and explore. They haven't been allowed to tend to their own gardens or enjoy achievements- other than achievement to improve *or extend* the bond with another human being. That explains the lying and deceit- (which isn't done because they are out to hurt you) it's their protection *against* the idea that they have never been allowed a real self of their own.  They have no idea where to begin- they suffer from immense psychic pain (which they try to absolve through cathartic exorcisms like cutting, submissive/dominant sex and other endorphin releases) most of the time this is done unsuccessfully and results in repressing the pain until they become auto immune disorders.  

They seek to attach to a person that REPRESENTS the false self they wish they could have. Some theorists suggest that narcissists are very attractive to Borderlines because they both mirror each other.

For the rest of us- we have found things we enjoy- but we did this at the sacrifice of not having "the leash." Our false selves served us as both protection against society as well as the reality that we really did not have anywhere else to go. We had to fit in. There was no return. In contrast with the Borderline- who never left to go out on their own.

When the two meet- it's like kismet. Say, I love Gardening. Gardening, says the BPD? I love it too!  It's the concept of gardening that you love that is then mirrored- but the actuality is that everything they touch is now dead and brown. Your response: I thought you loved gardening! Their response: I do! You shake your head and say, you know what, I think you're lying. They argue - you are persecuting me!

Reality: They were never allowed to garden as a child. They were never given permission to detach from another person and have the ability to grow something outside of a symbiotic bond. They dont know how to detach without mirroring you- or anyone else they think can give them the false self they need. It is their shame and it is their guilt combined in the false self (and the thinking that maybe they deserved your wrath) that keeps them lying. You see, it's a disorder that serves a purpose of protecting the real self- one that hasn't been allowed to exist.

And Borderline personality has NOTHING in common with sexual abuse except for coincidence. To state that sexual abuse is a prerequisite for BPD is undermining the many people with BPD who never had a parent touch them inappropriately. This is about *not* being able to form a SELF outside of another person's SELF. The only self they've ever had was a mirror of others.

False selves are how we wish to appear to others. They are the make-up we wear, the clothing we buy, the car we drive, the education we receive, they are the twitterings of the twitter who needs proof that she exists, they are the plastic surgery of the pretty woman with low self esteem, they are rescuing behaviors and withdrawing behaviors- in short, they are anything we can think that can protect our real self from harm. If you want to know what your real self feels like- go into a hospital for surgery- and be stripped down to nothing- then try to use the false self for protection. Make-up? No. Car? No. Education? Nope. Rescue someone else? Highly Unlikely. Withdraw? Not if you want to live.

The false self is what we think makes us distinctive, different and therefore special.

You will find your false self crushed, when it is mirrored, reflected back to you in your highest glory and then discarded as worthless by another person who has no self of their own- and must borrow yours. In doing so, they become a Hurricane that strips away everything that you have worked for and presented to the World. And it's up to you to re-build, keeping what you can salvage and tossing what's no longer useful.

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« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2010, 07:41:53 PM »

They seek to attach to a person that REPRESENTS the false self they wish they could have. Some theorists suggest that narcissists  are very attractive to Borderlines because they both mirror each other.[/quote]
I wish I could say that it was a  |> at the time rather than an intellectual curiosity, but my BPDex commented that her therapist had suggested that her estranged husband seemed to present with narcissistic tendencies (if not disorder), recognizing of course that this is my Borderline ex filtering her perceptions about her unhappy marriage/spouse to a therapist, but later, when she was trying to throw me off the scent of discovery of the affair she had conducted with another man, she commented that he referred to himself as "Mr. Awesome . . . just like [her husband] used to do."

This was at the time I was negotiatiing (with myself really) some kind of reconciliation of how she could have a "fling, the result of temporary insanity," with much younger man who reminded her "of my husband when we were younger and we were happy."  My admonition to her (foolishly, naively, stupidly--also negotiating with my False self, if you will) was that "you do realize that there's a strong likelihood that this younger version of your husband that you became infatuated with will ultimately become the same guy as the husband you dismissed."

The Borderline/Narcissist attraction axis was quite real, and quite troubling in the way that all illogical BPD behavior and characteristics are.
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« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2010, 10:24:18 PM »

Excerpt
I think our perceptions were real for us, but they were presenting a fake persona to us.

And Borderline personality has NOTHING in common with sexual abuse except for coincidence. To state that sexual abuse is a prerequisite for BPD is undermining the many people with BPD who never had a parent touch them inappropriately.

I never said sexual abuse is a prerequisite for BPD. I would like to know the source that said "except for coincidence" as I've never heard that before. My understanding is that sexual abuse is one sure fire way of destroying a self. Abandoning self (through dissociation) is about the only way to survive such trauma at such a young age. I never said it's the only way to lose self.

Excerpt
I think our perceptions were real for us, but they were presenting a fake persona to us.

When the two meet- it's like kismet. Say, I love Gardening. Gardening, says the BPD? I love it too!  It's the concept of gardening that you love that is then mirrored- but the actuality is that everything they touch is now dead and brown. Your response: I thought you loved gardening! Their response: I do! You shake your head and say, you know what, I think you're lying. They argue - you are persecuting me!


  I'm still struggling to understand this concept of "false self" as you (your version is ringing true for me I think) are presenting it. If you love gardening and the BPD says "I love it too!" (like in your example) and you really do enjoy gardening... .how is enjoying gardening a false self? Is it because it's something you do? like an action? and not something you are?

Good (eerie) example as my BPD actually claimed to be an "expert" gardener and did turn everything dead and brown. I, however, never called her on it as in your example... .I just remained puzzled and was wondering why she had such a run of bad luck for three years. It was only later after the end of the relationship that I realized the truth. How sad that she put all of that effort into something in order to keep a pretense based on one thing she said to me during an early encounter. Do you think that they really believe that they love gardening when they say it in mirroring?
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« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2010, 10:58:33 PM »

Redrighthand,

I understand where you are coming from, I just don't like to think that it is like this for all BPDs. Yes they do evil and abusive things, but to think that they are purposefully doing things that are cruel makes them out to be sadists or sociopaths. I don't think they all are.

I don't know if it's like that for all, but it is like that for many. Many are sadists (and masochists)... .I believe it is a dominance/submission type of thing that helps them (they think) ,maybe momentarily, escape their inner turmoil.

BPDs Sociopaths? Read this and tell me what you think: www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
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« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2010, 11:50:03 PM »

Wow! That was a shocking article. It really does describe many BPDs. You may have a point there, Redrighthand!
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« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2010, 03:59:38 AM »

Borderlines are not anti-social. Unlike the sociopath, Borderlines have a tremendous desire to be accepted by society- but have not been given the opportunity to expand and widen their horizons. The sociopath has.

The anti-social personality  (Aspd) sociopath has been given the opportunity to expand his horizons- but he uses that opportunity to screw up and then elicit pity from others- and he uses others as disposable commodities when they come to the rescue. He knows he is doing wrong and understands that he may get into trouble- which has him jumping ahead with a story for *why he deserves the pity* and is unaccountable for when he gets caught.

Sociopaths charm.  Only people with a pleasurable ego are interested in charming ... .putting forth a fantastic image... .marking themselves as great. The "charmee" is then always put in a lower position in status. Charm is essentially a lie. And it's usually used to pull a fast one.

The Borderline isn't as self-assured.  Borderlines do not charm- they MIRROR. Because of this, they are often confused when mirroring is not enough- and the partner demands the real self to emerge. As the partner gets pulled into a persecutory role, the Borderline frantically back pedals and projects persecution to get out of the snafu. It is at that time that they show to you how they were treated as children, with victimization, persecution and rescuing behavior all on a transference triangle and projected outward as if to hurt and maim.

If they mirror the right people, the counter-transference can be life affirming as a bondage persecution- but it's not done in order to get away with bad behavior like the Sociopath- it's done to prove themselves correct about their earliest bondage.

The partner of the Borderline often misunderstands and casts the Borderline in an anti-social role- as this is the easiest and simplest solution to split a person from good to bad. In the mind of the partner, the Borderline is just evil- and has done horrible things on purpose- because deep down, they are bad people- flawed and evil. When we judge Borderline behavior based on our own concept of good- we eliminate the good- and this defense mechanism allows us to remain safe and make the decision of guilt on another party.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R7AzMf8fiY

Ed Begley in 12 Angry Men.

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« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2010, 04:59:46 AM »

topic: Borderlines = Sociopaths?

There is a link on the undecided board on sociopaths and BPDs.
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« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2010, 05:08:36 AM »

The partner of the Borderline often misunderstands and casts the Borderline in an anti-social role- as this is the easiest and simplest solution to split a person from good to bad. In the mind of the partner, the Borderline is just evil- and has done horrible things on purpose- because deep down, they are bad people- flawed and evil. When we judge Borderline behavior based on our own concept of good- we eliminate the good- and this defense mechanism allows us to remain safe and make the decision of guilt on another party.

This is true.  It took me a while to stop playing the blame game and get to the core of the matter: myself.  It's much easier to do in retrospect after enough time of seperation has passed.  

This thread has had me thinking for a few days now, trying to pinpoint what the false self is and how it factored into the r/s.  The mirroring that took place during idealization was extremely validating for me.  I couldn't get enough.  When idealization began to wane and mirroring was less prevalent, I found myself stuck psychologically and emotionally.  I wasn't thinking or acting properly, and at this point most of who I was, or who I thought I was, was put on the back burner as I tried to figure out what was happening and why I was being treated like an enemy.  She tested my core values, and even though I thought I was passing with flying colors, all I got were F's from my ex.

A few weeks ago, when I found myself slipping back into the BPD partner mindset, and that it was seperate from my regular every day "normal" mindest, I realized that it was basically a part of me still seeking her validation.  However, if validation is what I was seeking, and validation only came during mirroring, then it was the mirroring version of my ex I was longing for.   If that's the case, then I am really still longing for the illusion she protrayed and I constructed in my own head.

I concluded that since what this part of me still craved is false, then that aspect of who I am must also be false.  It was constructed under false pretenses and is therefore false.  I am beginning to wonder if this concept might not also be... .um... .false!

I am starting to think that my false self is the image of myself that I portray to myself in my own mind, a self-image I constructed many years ago at time I can't pinpoint.  Here is an example:

When I was in high school I was a long-haired rebel.  One day, I cut my hair short and started dressing properly.  Everyone was amazed at the new me!  Chicks who normally wouldn't give me a glance came out of the woodwork to not only compliment me but practically throw their panties at me.

Normally, one might think this type of attention is a good thing, but not I.  I was highly offended.  Who I was never changed, only my appearence.  Something inside of me became injured, and I made a personal vow to never play the clean-cut role again.  If people wanted to know the real me, they would have to penetrate the rebel facade and prove to me their lack of superficiality.

Wouldn't you know that my ex found me in such a state of mind.  This vow of mine had been buried over the years, but it was still there, and my hair was the longest it had ever been.  I was still holding true to the mantra that the real me was held in reserve for someone who could see past the rebel personna.

Whatever protective mental mechanism I had established in high school had been successfully breeched by my ex.  She passed with flying colors.  My defense was not only down, but I was so very glad to not be suffocated by it's presence.  The only problem is I was revealing myself to someone who was merely mirroring back to me my own joy and sense of freedom... .from myself!

I think I am now beginning to understand what the false self is and how it is created.  I just never really looked at it as false.  Or even true.  I just thought I was doing my best to create a version of me that was acceptable to me, but, indeed, it was all superficial.



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« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2010, 05:10:14 AM »

Excerpt
The Borderline/Narcissist attraction axis was quite real, and quite troubling in the way that all illogical BPD behavior and characteristics are.

Narcissists = are people who are "respect driven". (Respect is attention given to people of a higher status, or value in a society. Respect is antithetical to love by the very nature of it being unequal.)

Narcissists *do what they must* to get the attention to prove to themselves and to others that they exist and are worthy of “being.” Narcissists need attention from others (groups/partners/friends) *or* they have no use for them.

Narcissists have relationships with people who are typically just like them (other narcissists in collusion, who mirror back their false greatness) -OR- they rely on people who are uncomfortable being themselves (Small, painful egos) and who must reflect (mirror) back to the Narcissist in order to provide some sense of well *being* not only to the Narcissist- but also to themselves. i.e., Borderlines.

The Narcissist is a person who hides a painful self with a pleasurable ego. The Narcissist seeks to hide the pain of the real self behind a pretense of pleasure- and the quest for pleasure. It is an act of doing that creates being. It is also an act of doing that uses others as objects along the way.

Narcissists are Lone wolves. They do not attach to others for fear of annihilation. They have a fear of being subsumed and diluted, and therefore, afraid they do not exist.  They use people superficially to prove their worth.

Being “awesome and special are ways for the Narcissist to fend off that insecurity and cover up their real selves. Since pathological envy is at the root of Malignant Narcissism, Narcissists are always seeking out the next best thing to serve the FALSE self that hides the insecurity and pain.

And the “seeking” of the next best thing is -what *initially* attracts the Borderline to the Narcissist. The Borderline, -who has not developed their own pleasurable ego and not developed their own false self to please themselves- has only developed a false self that pleases and mirrors others- absolutely loves the fact that the narcissist has done the research on what’s next.

And to a Narcissist, this is a dream come true.  Attacking their image is akin to attacking anyone else with a knife. The narcissist will seek people with "dull knives". People with a painful ego have the dullest knives... .if they are trying to project an image. (Care about what people think about them)

Since self is what is used to help a person survive, the Borderline cannot survive alone, they must have a host. If they partner with someone who is a Narcissist, then they will be given a "life support system". In the "upside down" world of the Borderline, the narcissist is who they are.

Until it becomes the Narcissist's perception of the Borderline's attack on the Narcissist's false self- after the Borderline partner attempts to peel off the Narcissists "false self" mask and make it theirs. The Narcissists painful self is exposed, and the Borderline partner must be executed and then left to die on the side of the road.

But what happens when a Borderline mistakenly thinks of their partner as a Narcissist? And that partner isn’t a Narcissist and subsequently, doesn’t devalue and discard them?

The Borderline is a person who has a painful self and a painful ego. He seeks to hide this pain behind someone else’s pretense of pleasure.

Borderlines want so hard to see their own face that they demand we create one for them.

People who are "understanding driven" get drawn into this dilemma. These people are the opposite of the Narcissist- who is respect driven and who does not allow the personal sacrifice needed to help the borderline solve the mystery of “who they are.”

Knowledge seekers, passionate, compassionate, creative and highly questioning of life, these understanding people do not feel comfortable in large groups but are social on an individual basis and have closest friendships with people of the opposite gender (or people on a one to one basis)

The understanding partner then "imagines" what the other person (i.e., the Borderline) wants, and tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding or missing. The understanding driven personality *understands* the need to be held, loved, understood and wants to share intimacy- but feels that with the Borderline= all they need is to guide, teach and show the way.

The false self that the Borderline mirrors, gets in the way and the partner tries to remove it. They try to find the chinks in the Borderline armor and peel them apart. The mystery becomes increasingly uncomfortable as the mystery unravels that the person they loved was themselves- what’s left is now the mystery that they must uncover- as to who really is the Borderline? We have no idea that the mystery exists because the Borderline is empty. They have no real self and have borrowed ours. We have been mirrored. There is nothing underneath.

Our partner starts to hurt us when we seek to remove the false self that they have mirrored. They use abuse to pull us under control. Our painful ego is easy to "pinch" because we fear abandonment.  We stop questioning them (trying to remove the armor) and turn the focus to questioning ourselves. What did we do to deserve this? During this time, they either pull us back under their control with blame and projection or seek another "understanding driven" person or a Narcissist to "host" them.  Idea

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« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2010, 05:42:20 AM »

Excerpt
The false self is what we think makes us distinctive, different and therefore special.

Think of this as a value added. It makes you different but it doesn’t make you better than anyone else. Look ma, the boy can drive a car, pilot a plane, play the piano, save lives- grow a garden- but all of these things are only a value added to the real self. That very real self that is no different from anyone else. The Human being.

What's important here - isn't that you think you are better than anyone else- it's what you choose to send out to the World to define you- and it's what is picked up on and then mirrored back to you by the Borderline - to get your approval.

In the conclusion of the relationship- you will be presented (in hindsight) with what was mirrored- and then realize that this was important enough to be recognized by a person who survived their childhood by finding the (parent's) Achilles heel and using their knowledge to manipulate (the parent) to give them what they needed for survival.

Consequently, your understanding of them should be that they grew up to be masters of manipulation, keenly trained at evoking a response from others by mirroring their selves. And that means that they will never see you as a friend or an ally that can be trusted because they cannot detach and form their own self to do so- apart from you- they can only re-create the bond of someone else's self as a re-living of their past inability to form their own self from their parent.

It is different from Aspd as it is a repetition compulsion to acknowledge the deprived self and prove the impossibility of a successful real self.

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« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2010, 11:00:59 PM »

Excerpt
But what happens when a Borderline mistakenly thinks of their partner as a Narcissist? And that partner isn’t a Narcissist and subsequently, doesn’t devalue and discard them?

The Borderline is a person who has a painful self and a painful ego. She seeks to hide this pain behind someone else’s pretense of pleasure.

Borderlines want so hard to see their own face that they demand we create one for them.

People who are "understanding driven" get drawn into this dilemma. These people are the opposite of the Narcissist- who is respect driven and who does not allow the personal sacrifice needed to help the borderline solve the mystery of “who they are.”

Knowledge seekers, passionate, compassionate, creative and highly questioning of life, these understanding people do not feel comfortable in large groups but are social on an individual basis and have closest friendships with people of the opposite gender (or people on a one to one basis)

The understanding partner then "imagines" what the other person (i.e., the Borderline) wants, and tries to uncover what they think the Borderline is hiding or missing. The understanding driven personality *understands* the need to be held, loved, understood and wants to share intimacy- but feels that with the Borderline= all they need is to guide, teach and show the way.

The false self that the Borderline mirrors, gets in the way and the partner tries to remove it. They try to find the chinks in the Borderline armor and peel them apart. The mystery becomes increasingly uncomfortable as the mystery unravels that the person they loved was themselves- what’s left is now the mystery that they must uncover- as to who really is the Borderline? We have no idea that the mystery exists because the Borderline is empty. They have no real self and have borrowed ours. We have been mirrored. There is nothing underneath.

Our partner starts to hurt us when we seek to remove the false self that they have mirrored. They use abuse to pull us under control. Our painful ego is easy to "pinch" because we fear abandonment.  We stop questioning them (trying to remove the armor) and turn the focus to questioning ourselves. What did we do to deserve this? During this time, they either pull us back under their control with blame and projection or seek another "understanding driven" person or a Narcissist to "host" them.   Idea

THANK YOU for this! I think this is the first accurate portrayal of what I got myself into that I've ever read in helping me to understand it. I am the understanding driven partner. I've never heard of this described like this before. I want to learn more. Where is this from? How can I learn more about the understanding driven person and how it applies to relationship dynamics with BPDs. Now the false self makes sense to me and how it played into this scenario. Please please please tell me how I can learn more about this. Thank you.
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« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2010, 11:19:54 PM »

This describes my last year perfectly.  wow!

[Our partner starts to hurt us when we seek to remove the false self that they have mirrored. They use abuse to pull us under control. Our painful ego is easy to "pinch" because we fear abandonment.  We stop questioning them (trying to remove the armor) and turn the focus to questioning ourselves. What did we do to deserve this? During this time, they either pull us back under their control with blame and projection or seek another "understanding driven" person or a Narcissist to "host" them.]
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« Reply #82 on: July 30, 2010, 07:53:30 PM »

Well that clarifies some things for me. Thanks 2010. Your insights are on target.


And Borderline personality has NOTHING in common with sexual abuse except for coincidence. To state that sexual abuse is a prerequisite for BPD is undermining the many people with BPD who never had a parent touch them inappropriately. This is about *not* being able to form a SELF outside of another person's SELF. The only self they've ever had was a mirror of others.

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