BPD women who lead men on

[MrStinkMeanor]

Folks, if you read my story (and I don't blame you if you didn't, it was too long) you know that my relationship

with the pwBPD was a little different than most here. We never had a TRUE bf/gf thing. We had all the other dynamics

of a BPD/non relationship (idealization turning into abuse, etc) and I did suffer through hell, and I certainly identify with every one of the stories here. I am wondering tho if you noticed, especially with the BPD women, that they would identify and lead on guys like me- 'nice guys' who had low self-esteem, etc. My pwBPD would often say she had "a lot of creepy stalkers" and "nerds" who had crushes on her. I am now wondering how common you all have found that to be. I guess I am still wrestling with my own need for validation. Still wondering if they have two tiers of men in their lives- the guys who they will have a r/s with and/or have sex with and chumps like me who they string along.

My cynical self says yeah, two kinds of men in a fem BPD's life- the kind they sleep with and destroy and the kind they don't sleep with and destroy. ha.

Any and all commentary appreciated. Thanks.

[Valentine09]

I would agree with the two tiers of guys.  I was strung along hoping to have a nice clean relationship with my exgf.  Meanwhile she'd have sex with other guys and justify it to me by saying we weren't in an "official" relationship so I shouldn't feel hurt by it.  She treated me like a boyfriend most of the time, wanted to cuddle with me like a boyfriend, but all our conversations revolved around how she'd be happier with someone else.  Then when I had enough of her crap and told her I didn't want to be in this second tier any longer she'd up her level of physicality with me and want to make out.  Whenever I even hinted of letting go of her she was suddenly attracted to me again.  It was completely sick and twisted.  :)uring one of these episodes I even told her, "You just told me you're not attracted to me and don't see a future with me, yet you're stroking my face and kissing me like you want me, WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND DOES THAT?"  Her response:  "I don't know why I'm doing it, I just feel bad about everything."  

The guys she was going after and said she was truly attracted to were all cold, distant, heartless, narcissistic, and used her solely for sex.  It took me completely ignoring her for several months for me to cross-over, in her mind, into the other tier of guy.  When they can't have you, the more they want you.  Suddenly I was her soul mate and she wanted to marry me ASAP.  I didn't give into this however, this was only a few weeks ago.  She hadn't changed since I stopped speaking to her in November.  She's pulled this routine before.  The moment I give in she'll lose all interest.

I'm a nice guy, and I'd only be hurting her and myself by hopping back on this roller coaster from hell.  The fact is I just don't have it in me to keep it up.  I can't be cold and distant, it's not my nature.  And being cold and distant doesn't work in the long run, because they'll eventually leave you for that reason as well.  It's a no-win situation with BPD.

I really miss the physical aspect of the relationship, she's the only girl I've ever kissed... .and I thoroughly enjoyed it.  And I had to pass on sleeping with her, and I totally could have.  Could do it right now, just have to call her.  It's so tempting. But your last statement is correct, you get destroyed either way.  The sex isn't worth the lifetime of consequences associated with it.  I don't want to make a baby and then have it turned against me and be legally and financially tied to her for even longer.  It's actually a gift to be in the first tier of guy (the nice guy)  you get all the perspective without all the baggage the other guys end up with.

[cal20]

To the OP, How long were you friends with her? Ans did you have any physically intimacy with her? Did she  even try? I am just wondering why you went along with her. Did she say she was in love with you or give you any indication that she wanted to be with you?

[MrStinkMeanor]

Hi Cal, thanks for the question.

When we initially met we seem to hit off right away, like we had know each other forever. After that we continued an email correspondence since we actually lived in different states and she was out of the country for a while. She initiated the emails and very quickly they became flirtatious. At this point I just considered her a really cool friend- I never pursued her at all initially- but she would say things like "I have been thinking about you all the time lately... ." which quickly became "I can't wait to see you when I get back to the states" and then finally "I want you to f*** my brains out". I flew out to see her and she continued the flirtation- right up until I made a move on her and then she acted like I was nuts, like 'where did this come from?' was her attitude.  |>

Her excuse was she said she hadn't been in a relationship for 3 years and was trying not to get involved and heartbroken again (this turned out to be a lie).

Anyhow, she would act hot and cold after that. She would say I was her "soulmate" and when we saw each other (every few months) she would latch on to me and hang out like we were a couple. Mixed messages. Her one friend (she had almost no female friends) said she thought we would make a good couple, etc.

She would do things like ask me to fly up to see her and meet her parents and then when I said ok and start making flight reservations she would call and say nevermind, her plans had changed. The way we always were with each other- people started to talk, saying that  we were a couple, but I never got anything more than a hug from her.

This went on for almost three years. Three years of hell. Up and down, like a yoyo. She would ignore me for a while then I would get a sweet voice message or email or text asking me to come see her.

In retrospect I'm glad in some ways. To really be her bf would have destroyed my life, I am sure. Yet I can't shake the feeling that I wasn't 'good enough'.

The guys she was going after and said she was truly attracted to were all cold, distant, heartless, narcissistic, and used her solely for sex.

Yeah I think that is true of mine too, but I don't understand it. I did everything to please her and if I even said one word of disagreement or the mildest criticism she would go off on me. Yet it doesn't seem like these jerks were walking on eggshells at all!


Oh almost forgot- my therapist (I didn't need one before her!) said that the fact that she raged at me, lied to me, and suddenly cut me off meant that she really DID feel 'something' for me. She said that she probably only shows those true BPD behaviors to someone she is feeling/fearing intimacy with. Cold comfort. I would have settled for a hot make-out session. Just for the validation that yes, I was desirable enough at one time.

[MrStinkMeanor]

I just remembered something else... .amazing how many things come back to me now that I had sort of suppressed... .

She almost seem to enjoy tormenting me with the fact that I could get so close but not 'have' her. I remember the next time I saw her after she shot me down she casually mentioned that she might go by and see an old boyfriend and have sex with him because she was really horny. And I was sitting there and thinking, Jeez I guess I am really unattractive.

Another interesting thing- I wasn't really attracted to her at first, at least not in a sexual way. She wasn't my 'type' at all. It was actually the fact that we were so close (at least I thought we were) and that we had such a bond and were (cringe) 'soulmates' that I wanted to be fully and completely 'with' her, sharing everything including our bodies. It just makes me sick looking back at how stupid I was.

[Valentine09]

Yeah, making out really wasn't worth it either.  Since it was my first time doing so, it kind of tainted it.  You don't miss what you never had, and now that I've had it I miss it more.  Guess I was just starved for the attention.  When you're starting to push 30 and never kissed a girl, yes you do feel unattractive.  And when they string you along that much and then ditch you for guy after guy it makes you feel like you're soo unlovable.  It's not true though.  The truth is we are good enough, we just haven't met the right person yet.  Nothing to be ashamed of.  No one is "good enough" for them.  Everyone disappoints them.  Mine had to go as far as to make up stuff that wasn't true in order to not like me.  It was ridiculous. 

It's interesting you mention not being fully attracted to her at first.  I wasn't completely blown away by mine initially at first.  She had a glow about her and it made me want to ask her out immediately, but I remember thinking at the time that I wasn't completely sure how I felt about her.  I thought she was super cute and had a lovely smile and a nice body, but I was working out in my head at first whether I was truly attracted to her.  I found that my attraction for my exgf grew exponentially when she ditched me the first time.  It was at that time she had really gotten under my skin... .I had really gotten to know her (at least the person she first portrayed herself as).  I was then super attracted to her, to the point where just about every other woman could not compare in looks or anything to her.  In my mind she became perfect.  Kind of scary how that works.  The point about wanting what you can't have is just as much a reality for us as it is for them. Now that she wants me, I can't imagine having a successful relationship with her, yet it is so tempting to go back because I haven't had any other prospects since.  Oh well, such is life.

[downinahole]

My exBPDgf would constantly lead men on.  One of these men actually sent her flowers on valentine's day... .after we had been together for 3 years.  I asked her why this guy would even think about doing that... .her response "i was sick the last couple of weeks, i work with him... .it's nothing, and he just wanted to make me feel better."  Of course, I told her that I felt that was a bit over the line, esepcially since this guy is married with 3 kids... . I wonder what his wife would feel about him sending flowers to her... !  He knew she was with me, but didn't care.  

She would constantly seek admiration from other men.

There were 4 or 5 instances over the 4.5 years that we were together that I felt there was something wrong... .that she was investing more of her emotion in someone other than me.  I truly believe that she never did physically cheat on me, but maybe im just being naive.  And how dare I ever say anything about her talking to other men... !  I was just being jealous and insecure.  It didn't matter to her how I felt about it.  She wasn't going to "allow" me to tell her who she could and couldn't talk to.

Yet the one day she's holding my phone and a text comes through from a female co-worker of mine... .she loses her mind in a jealous rage.  She immediately justifies her reaction by saying she was cheated on in her marriage and she has a right to feel that way... .but I definitely do not.

Looking back now, I should have walked away long ago. Instead 4.5 years of my life are gone. I'm beatin'  and destroyed by her anger... .her rage... .her instability... .Yet somehow, I was convinced I was the unstable one. I stood her up, and saved her when she needed saving. All for nothing though... .im now just a broken down soul.

[lifeistough75]

Sorry to say this, but this is my own experience. I used to be a guy with a lot of confidence and healthy self-esteem before I fell in love with this "BPD" girl. The thing is not that they pick on nice guys and string them along. They have no psychic ability to detect this until you show them this by your behavior, it is in fact one's low self esteem and lack of self confidence that facilitates being strung along. If you had a healthy dose of confidence, you would have left the situation right away, and would not have been part of the game.

For me, I fell in love, endured some of the situation, and lost some of self esteem, and by that time I was already trapped. I saw the flags, but did not have the confidence to pull the trigger of leaving. I will never let that happen again.

[innerspirit]

Not to hijack, but I wonder if it's on gender lines?  Or just hard to generalize?

Change the pronouns below and it's pretty much happened to me with my STBXH.

The thing is not that they [BPD guys] pick on nice [girls] and string them along. They have no psychic ability to detect this until you show them this by your behavior, it is in fact one's low self esteem and lack of self confidence that facilitates being strung along. If you had a healthy dose of confidence, you would have left the situation right away, and would not have been part of the game.

For me, I fell in love, endured some of the situation, and lost some of self esteem, and by that time I was already trapped. I saw the flags, but did not have the confidence to pull the trigger of leaving. I will never let that happen again.

Thanks LIT75 for putting it so well into words.

What I regret is that I wasn't more assertive in setting boundaries, when I felt that he crossed them -- and that was very early on, like within the first 2-3 weeks.  Best case, boundaries would have been respected (which is doubtful) but worst case, I would have gotten myself out years sooner.  Maybe not even have walked down the aisle.

[Amdis]

The same thing happened to me in a sense. I was with my exBPDgf for 7 months. That whole time I knew she was hanging out with this guy behind my back. But, he was 4 years younger than her, no job, uneducated on unemployment living with his parents. I knew something was up and she ditched me for him.

About 5 months ago we started to talk after we unblocked each other, things started to pick up and she started to show up to events I attended that she previously didn't. She worked her way back into my life completely. Though, she wanted to have her cake and eat it too! She wanted all the dynamics of a boyfriend, but not the commitment. I asked if she would be my boyfriend, but she said she wanted to take things slow. There were very few signs I picked up on quickly and after I spent hundreds of dollars doing a day trip to NYC, I said I loved her. All she did was giggle. I knew right then and there I was played and decided to go through her phone. Turns out she was stringing along two other exbf's, as well as me, and rotating each of them a few weeks at a time. And I was just one of them. When I found out, I was literally sick to my stomach. I disappeared for a few days because it was so hard to handle. I came out of hiding again, went to her house, we cuddled and fell asleep together, when I left that morning, I was dumped because I was not someone that could be counted on; what does it matter, I was not her boyfriend.

I hate how cold they are!

[MrStinkMeanor]

She wanted all the dynamics of a boyfriend, but not the commitment.

Yep.

after I spent hundreds of dollars doing a day trip to NYC, I said I loved her. All she did was giggle.

I did this too. I think we are talking about the same girl.

Turns out she was stringing along two other exbf's, as well as me, and rotating each of them a few weeks at a time. And I was just one of them. When I found out, I was literally sick to my stomach.

I never caught mine redhanded but there were some weird things with her along these lines. I was supposed to be her best friend and soulmate, and she accepted gifts and support from me, yet there always seemed to be guys who were her "friends" hanging around. She referred to them- and me- as her 'fake boyfriends' whatever that means. I think she had several under her spell. We were like a zombie army doing whatever she bid. She also seemed to rotate around.

Looking back now it seems like she would play one against another. I remember she always used to text me when some other guy was around (I know b/c she would tell me). I guess she could make both jealous at once. Must have been nice for her.

Change the pronouns below and it's pretty much happened to me with my STBXH.

Good point. I just said 'women' b/c that was my experience, but certainly it could apply to men who lead women, women who lead women, etc... .

[innerspirit]

Change the pronouns below and it's pretty much happened to me with my STBXH.

Good point. I just said 'women' b/c that was my experience, but certainly it could apply to men who lead women, women who lead women, etc... .

One    that I'm trying to get rid of is all the indoctrination I got from X about men vs. women.  I mean, his seriously exaggerated, threatening, blown-out-of-proportion crap.  So it's really healing to me to find out again that the canyon between us isn't nearly that wide. 

Men do indeed feel and have the time and interest to talk about it, women can be objective and analytical -- what a concept.   

And thankfully, both genders can believe that sex is more than just getting one's personal quota at the other's expense,

[2010]

the guys who they will have a r/s with and/or have sex with and chumps like me who they string along.

If it's any consolation, she didn't have a relationship with the other guys- she had a relationship with you.  Sex is an "acting out" behavior that is easily accomplished, without much thought. You dont need to talk, you just need to rub against each other. It doesn't involve the Brain. That means that you- in your relationship with her- got closer and more intimate than you thought.

BPD is an equal opportunity disorder- there is a misnomer about women sufferers in greater number than men- and this data really doesn't take into account a cultural bias. Believe me, there are just as many BPD Men who lead women on. There isn't a gender discrepancy when detailing the behaviors. BPD acting out behaviors involve impulsive sex because it's the easiest way to get attention (a rewarding behavior) In a way, a Borderline is still a kept child- and they will do anything it takes to please. The disorder becomes malignant when the pleasing behavior turns to self hatred and masochism. That's not a nice way to live.

Hopefully your anger at her will be tempered when you realize that she was just acting out because of frustration. Her wants could not be accomplished without clinging to others and that eventually wells up into self (and object) directed anger. She was not getting any joy from sleeping around- I promise you.

[ReallyNow?]

MrStinkMeanor,

You nailed the point right on target about the EX's playing situations so multiple guys can get jealous/ compete against each other for the BPD's affections.

I experienced this myself with my ex udBPD gf. I told her one morning during a brief call that I'd try to call her in the evening when I got off work. Well, I called at 9:45pm and she answered the phone. She sounded drunk and every now and again she'd make "little" moans or sighs (like someone was touching her in certain spots- i.e., of  a sexual nature)... .I kept asking: "What are you doing" but she'd just say watching t.v... After a few minutes, I asked if I could stop by her place on my way home- she replied:"Im going to bed and the house is locked up". With that, I said- Ok and told her I'd talk to her another time.

Well- after 20 mins she calls me back pissed off severely. She immediately tells me that after my call earlier- Her friend stormed out of her apartment and called her a ___in PSYCHO! She then started verbally abusing me for what happened. She actually blamed me for the whole THING!

I think what occured that night was- when I called she ATTEMPTED to get some guy to screw her (while on the phone w/ me) when I called to make me jealous but she inadvertantly pissed the other guy off for taking my call in his face. Basically, she disrespect BOTH OF US GUYS! I still dont get what she was thinking when she pulled that stunt. As a note: During the verbal abuse she was giving me that night she said:"Im going to be brutally honest- YOUR NOT THE PERSON I REALLY WANT TO BE WITH!" WTH?

All I could think of was- If you hated me SOO MUCH, why in the hell did you answer my call with another man in front of you (both had been drinking) late at night. Obviously she planned to have sex with this guy.

Amazing... the stuff these people are capable of doing. So much hurtful and abusive behaviours.

[id-crisis]

the guys who they will have a r/s with and/or have sex with and chumps like me who they string along.

If it's any consolation, she didn't have a relationship with the other guys- she had a relationship with you.  Sex is an "acting out" behavior that is easily accomplished, without much thought. You dont need to talk, you just need to rub against each other. It doesn't involve the Brain. That means that you- in your relationship with her- got closer and more intimate than you thought.

BPD is an equal opportunity disorder- there is a misnomer about women sufferers in greater number than men- and this data really doesn't take into account a cultural bias. Believe me, there are just as many BPD Men who lead women on. There isn't a gender discrepancy when detailing the behaviors. BPD acting out behaviors involve impulsive sex because it's the easiest way to get attention (a rewarding behavior) In a way, a Borderline is still a kept child- and they will do anything it takes to please. The disorder becomes malignant when the pleasing behavior turns to self hatred and masochism. That's not a nice way to live.

Hopefully your anger at her will be tempered when you realize that she was just acting out because of frustration. Her wants could not be accomplished without clinging to others and that eventually wells up into self (and object) directed anger. She was not getting any joy from sleeping around- I promise you.

I've read a couple of your posts this evening 2010 and must thank you for reminding me what it's all about . It's too easy to get stuck in the "hurt/wounded/angry" phase ... .for me anyway. I'm going to bookmark your posts just to remind me to snap out of it when I'm feeling sad or angry or bitter or sorry for myself.

After all, I'm the lucky one! Very sad  :'(

[RealEyes]

Sex is an "acting out" behavior that is easily accomplished, without much thought. You dont need to talk, you just need to rub against each other. It doesn't involve the Brain.

Its our awesome Brains that makes it so enjoyable for us Humans and a few other Earthlings like Bonobos, Dolphins, and i can imagine even more, or we are no more than Creatures having sex to procreate like the super religious would have us to believe and most other animals will only do~  Sex is an act by Earthlings who are not looking to enjoy it but its not an act by Earthlings with a healthy Brain that's wired for pleasure. 


Species other than humans that have sex for pleasure

www.helium.com/items/104268-species-other-than-humans-that-have-sex-for-pleasure

[2010]

Just to clarify, “doesn’t use the brain” was directed at Id based impulsivity and immediate gratification common to personality disorders rather than physiology. Although sex is a powerful emotional experience that can propel people into closer relationships, borderline relationships are not based on intimacy in any profound or meaningful way.  Borderlines are fantasy based and often think with the little head rather than the big, much to the dismay of their loved ones.

Sex (and the promise of it) is used as an easy tool to reward others in the borderline's effort to merge with the good object- The good object is you and me, the borderline and the borderline's earliest object- mother.  Sex is a tool to complete a reunion fantasy - but it never lasts because borderlines split themselves (as well as others) into rewarding/punishing personalities. Mirroring someone is their way of valuing (rewarding) themselves. As much as it seems like the other way around, their mirroring is really the way they open that pandora’s box from childhood.  It works on us too, but in other ways that ensnare us in the venus fly trap.

At a certain point, after you've been mirrored and seduced- the borderline feels depressed for good reason- everything they've done to seduce is choreographed and false. They begin to berate themselves for feeling forced and false- everything was about being needy and clinging and they hate themselves for that. The good object they once thought they were now splits and becomes bad- and the borderline needs to be punished or projects that punishment on to you.

Reward and withdrawal are intrapsychic- self representation (and view of others) goes from good to bad, positive to negative.  Splitting is internalized-as well as externalized and projected on others- and sex becomes a way to act this frustrated master/slave behavior out.  (Many borderlines want to punish or be punished during sex.) This skews the pleasure principle, (from seeking pleasure and avoiding pain) to intrapsychically seeking pain.  The fantasy is based on a recollection of childhood interactions with a punitive parent.  Hence the constant search for a new and improved rewarding object. 

In the meantime there are plenty of punishing, withdrawing objects to remind them how bad they are/were, which creates a greater need to find people to tell them that they are good before they fall into an abandonment depression.  If there is a chance at an actual abandonment depression (if they were alone, on a deserted island somewhere) they might write countless letters to you with the longing for love and second chances (reunion fantasy.) The thought of you is what keeps them away from self-responsibility and personal accountability.  After all, someone has to be blamed for their bondage.

By the time the borderline person reaches adulthood, a long pattern of fantasy and denial are locked into a series of choreographed seductions (with reunion fantasy still in the works for those failed relationships) For the most part, sex is used to fulfill the necessary *immediate* gratification to act out the fantasy with no weight given to reality at all.

[MrStinkMeanor]

Great posts and info 2010.

I went to a T after the last encounter with her, when I was confused and confounded and nearly suicidal from her behavior, and she said essentially the same thing you did. She said that Melody must have felt 'something' for me since I was the one only one who experienced the ugly BPD behaviors- the rages, etc. She seemed to have tons of superficial 'friends'- someone else on this board used the phrase 'friend collector' which I thought was right on, but I was sort of the King of The Friends, her most devoted acolyte. I guess there was some validation in the fact that she chose me. We were always magnetically drawn to one another no matter where we were. I just hate this feeling, this suspicion that she chose me not because of my good qualities but because of my defects (thus further confirmation that I'm a loser, worthless, etc).

Clearly I have my own issues- partly I wanted validation from her that I was desirable- but more than that I wanted to be close to her because I FELT close to her. I've been with my share of girls, dated etc, but she was the first one I felt that I was in... .l- l- l-... .ugh can't type it... .luh... .luh... .well, something that rhymes with dove. I can't say it anymore.  :'(

Oh well, I am sure there will be lots more BPD women in my life.

You know despite all the warnings here, and my anger towards her and everything else, there is a part of me that just wants to hold her close, not sexually or romantically, but just as you would a child who is sick, and tell her that it's ok, that I understand her and her life and that it will be ok. I know I have a tendency to be a schmucky rescuing 'nice guy' and that can be pathological too- but underneath it I REALLY AM a nice, compassionate person and I hate to see people suffering so terribly.

Thanks for reading.

[TruthWillBeRevealed]

My pwBPD would often say she had "a lot of creepy stalkers" and "nerds" who had crushes on her.

Yes, mine did that. She would also lead guys on when we were together, and I would confront her about it and she would act oblivious and say that she was just good friends with them.

[TonyC]

seems to me... .me included...

we all knew or suspected... .

yet we didnt question them and we stuck it out anyway... .

[David Dare]

My cynical self says yeah, two kinds of men in a fem BPD's life- the kind they sleep with and destroy and the kind they don't sleep with and destroy. ha.

  great sense of humor!  And very pertinent!

[ReallyNow?]

Excellent post- 2010!  

I saw EXACTLY what you described in the "Mirroring then Splitting" behaviour in my EX.

When we got back together "AS FRIENDS" (we were more but she claimed friends)- she began wanting to learn and enjoy all the things I liked. She wanted me to teach her things she knew I enjoyed. (She was beginning to MIRROR me!)

At this early stage of us talking again after 8 months apart- she started calling me and we had MANY long talks on the phone. Once we had SEX and I mean "wild monkey sex"... .it was like she changed instantly! As a matter of fact after a few days of SEX she was a different person (distant, cold). From that point on she began to hurl insults and abusive comments towards me. She said she didnt like anything I liked, that we talked too much, that I was too "deep" a person!  ? I was thinking what hell HAPPENED? She had "Split" and now was looking at me in a "blackened" way. Truth is, I never did anything but be nice and loving to her! But we all know what "loving" can do to a disordered person.

One other thing 2010- About the "pleasure/ pain acting out" during sex. When my ex and I first had sex again- she kept telling me to "do anything I wanted to her". The way she said this to me really caught me off guard. She repeated this to me NUMEROUS times right before we had sex and it seemed as if she was wanting me to do something to punish her OR hurt her. I was shocked at how infatically she wanted me to "have my way with her". Kinda scared me, actually. Makes me wonder what she REALLY was thinking- i.e., choke her, abuse her?  :'(

What you wrote IS EXACTLY as it played out with her and I! Your posts are very insightful.  

[innerspirit]

Hi -- I got so far off topic in my response that I decided to move this to a new thread -- Childhood Issues Played Out on an Intimate Level  -- thanks for joining me over there.

Thanks all, esp. 2010.

[cal20]

I'm not sure if all of this is exactly "leading on". I know that my ex BPD does lead men on but it's more for attention and validation and she won't show her BPD symtpoms towards them (she is very high functioning). Her relationship with them is more playful, flirty and friendly. That doesn't mean she doesn't like them or have feelings for them but i think the relationships with those type of men is based more on validation and acceptance. These men give her that and she feeds off of it.

My understanding is that if they treat your friendship like an actual relationship and exposed their BPD traits to you, then they probably had strong feelings for you.

For a long time (and still do at times) think my ex BPD may have lead me on. I dont know the truth for sure but given how BPD she was toward me (and how she does not act this way toward other guys she was talking to, or flirted with), makes me think she may have felt feelings towards me. But who knows.

[cal20]

I just want to add that all of this is based on what I have observed but have no idea of who they lead on and who they don't.

[innerspirit]

I'm not sure if all of this is exactly "leading on". I know that my ex BPD does lead men on but it's more for attention and validation and she won't show her BPD symtpoms towards them (she is very high functioning). Her relationship with them is more playful, flirty and friendly.

Does that make it more of a narcissist thing?  I think that's what my X was doing out drinking with a group of gay guys.  He enjoyed the exclusive status as their "straight mascot."

[cal20]

The guys she was going after and said she was truly attracted to were all cold, distant, heartless, narcissistic, and used her solely for sex.  It took me completely ignoring her for several months for me to cross-over, in her mind, into the other tier of guy.  When they can't have you, the more they want you.  Suddenly I was her soul mate and she wanted to marry me ASAP.  I didn't give into this however, this was only a few weeks ago.  She hadn't changed since I stopped speaking to her in November.  She's pulled this routine before.  The moment I give in she'll lose all interest.

I'm a nice guy, and I'd only be hurting her and myself by hopping back on this roller coaster from hell.  The fact is I just don't have it in me to keep it up.  I can't be cold and distant, it's not my nature.  And being cold and distant doesn't work in the long run, because they'll eventually leave you for that reason as well.  It's a no-win situation with BPD.

They definitely want what they cant have. Most people do to a certain extent but BPD’s prize on that like there in no tomorrow.

When I first met my BPD friend early on, she even told me that she loves people who play hard to get. It turns her on. She loves the chase. I didn’t take it all that seriously at the time but realize now how true it is.

I really believe that;s how it played out in our relationship too. Once I gave in with my feelings towards her, she began to control me and show all her BPD traits towards me. She also went back to idealizing this other guy (that she was talking to the whole time “as a friend”.

The only thing I can think of what happened here is: she knew she can have me so lost interest in me and went off to the other guy whom she still talks to (been a year now) because he hasn’t exposed his true feelings for her and she cant exactly have him yet. She is also talking to a couple of other guys.

Once she has these guys, it will be game over for them.

As far as the heartless boys, they  go for the cold heartless boys because they are incapable of intimacy and they don’t hav to go there with those types of boys.

[cal20]

I'm not sure if all of this is exactly "leading on". I know that my ex BPD does lead men on but it's more for attention and validation and she won't show her BPD symtpoms towards them (she is very high functioning). Her relationship with them is more playful, flirty and friendly.

Does that make it more of a narcissist thing?  I think that's what my X was doing out drinking with a group of gay guys.  He enjoyed the exclusive status as their "straight mascot."

Possibly. I think everyone (especially women) love attention to a certain extent. But we all have our limits and in all likelihood won't lead people on to get that attention. But I think with BPD's the case is different. They are so insecure and empty inside that they constantly need this attention. They can’t be “alone” and independent. My BPD ex friend  is not in a relationship but has several guys right now (and I believe always has these guys whether she is in a relationship or not)  whom she talks to that give her lots of attention and she  feeds off it.

[RealEyes]

she started calling me and we had MANY long talks on the phone. Once we had SEX and I mean "wild monkey sex"... .it was like she changed instantly! As a matter of fact after a few days of SEX she was a different person (distant, cold). From that point on she began to hurl insults and abusive comments towards me. She said she didnt like anything I liked, that we talked too much, that I was too "deep" a person!  huh  I was thinking what hell HAPPENED? She had "Split" and now was looking at me in a "blackened" way. Truth is, I never did anything but be nice and loving to her! But we all know what "loving" can do to a disordered person.

This is the same exact events happened with the xBPDbf~ He then calmed down for a few more weeks where we were able to enjoy the most pleasurable sex ever! I still miss it but not the madness that erupted afterwards

[MrStinkMeanor]

I still miss it but not the madness that erupted afterwards shocked

RealEyes, if we ever meet, fall in love and wild monkey sex, I promise not to erupt into madness afterwards. I'm just sayin'.

[lifeistough75]

Just to clarify, “doesn’t use the brain” was directed at Id based impulsivity and immediate gratification common to personality disorders rather than physiology. Although sex is a powerful emotional experience that can propel people into closer relationships, borderline relationships are not based on intimacy in any profound or meaningful way.  Borderlines are fantasy based and often think with the little head rather than the big, much to the dismay of their loved ones.

Sex (and the promise of it) is used as an easy tool to reward others in the borderline's effort to merge with the good object- The good object is you and me, the borderline and the borderline's earliest object- mother.  Sex is a tool to complete a reunion fantasy - but it never lasts because borderlines split themselves (as well as others) into rewarding/punishing personalities. Mirroring someone is their way of valuing (rewarding) themselves. As much as it seems like the other way around, their mirroring is really the way they open that pandora’s box from childhood.  It works on us too, but in other ways that ensnare us in the venus fly trap.

At a certain point, after you've been mirrored and seduced- the borderline feels depressed for good reason- everything they've done to seduce is choreographed and false. They begin to berate themselves for feeling forced and false- everything was about being needy and clinging and they hate themselves for that. The good object they once thought they were now splits and becomes bad- and the borderline needs to be punished or projects that punishment on to you.

Reward and withdrawal are intrapsychic- self representation (and view of others) goes from good to bad, positive to negative.  Splitting is internalized-as well as externalized and projected on others- and sex becomes a way to act this frustrated master/slave behavior out.  (Many borderlines want to punish or be punished during sex.) This skews the pleasure principle, (from seeking pleasure and avoiding pain) to intrapsychically seeking pain.  The fantasy is based on a recollection of childhood interactions with a punitive parent.  Hence the constant search for a new and improved rewarding object. 

In the meantime there are plenty of punishing, withdrawing objects to remind them how bad they are/were, which creates a greater need to find people to tell them that they are good before they fall into an abandonment depression.  If there is a chance at an actual abandonment depression (if they were alone, on a deserted island somewhere) they might write countless letters to you with the longing for love and second chances (reunion fantasy.) The thought of you is what keeps them away from self-responsibility and personal accountability.  After all, someone has to be blamed for their bondage.

By the time the borderline person reaches adulthood, a long pattern of fantasy and denial are locked into a series of choreographed seductions (with reunion fantasy still in the works for those failed relationships) For the most part, sex is used to fulfill the necessary *immediate* gratification to act out the fantasy with no weight given to reality at all.

Wow! Thank you very much 2010. I really learned a lot from this post. This sums up the relationship with my exgf. Very profound post, and great explanation of the background, and root causes. Thank you again.

[Disgruntled]

MrStinkMeanor... .I am going to give you some advice and I will probably get kicked off the board... .most women are attracted to cool confident hit_s... .at least a little bit... .and it does not matter what you look like... .as long as your an hit_ and act like you have some confidence... .you can't lose.  So if you are really wanting to sleep with her... .which I am not recommending because I think that will just suck you in more... .however if you do simply for closure purposes... .treat her like crap, sounds like she deserves to be treated like crap anyway!  Be a huge hit_!  Stop being so available to her... .it is too easy... .I promise.     

[cal20]

MrStinkMeanor... .I am going to give you some advice and I will probably get kicked off the board... .most women are attracted to cool confident hit_s... .at least a little bit... .and it does not matter what you look like... .as long as your an hit_ and act like you have some confidence... .you can't lose.  So if you are really wanting to sleep with her... .which I am not recommending because I think that will just suck you in more... .however if you do simply for closure purposes... .treat her like crap, sounds like she deserves to be treated like crap anyway!  Be a huge hit_!  Stop being so available to her... .it is too easy... .I promise.     

You are  right.

But I think this would be very difficult for him to do considering that he seems very attached to her. He was is a sex less relationship with her for 3 years and he still wants to be with her! So it probably wouldn’t work.

I think the OP should work on changing himself and becoming more confident on his own. She’s only going to break him apart at this point.

[TruthWillBeRevealed]

2010, where'd you get all that info from?

Specifically this one: "Many borderlines want to punish or be punished during sex."

While it may be true, the explanation for it seems very mystic and Freudian to me.

[2010]

According to James F. Masterson, parental scapegoating adds on to the Borderline’s failure to detach and learn the necessary *adaptive skills* to free themselves from “me-but not me” bondage. Their frustration at not being able to free themselves turns inwardly directed and results in “generally some form of sado-masochistic sexual adaptation, which reflects the earlier level of aggression and conflict.”  (Pg. 135 The Narcissistic and Borderline Disorders. Masterson author)

If you’ve ever wondered why sex is so incredible with a Borderline- it’s because they use it to serve you while fulfilling their internal splitting.

Borderlines are people in psychological bondage.  Their earliest source of human interaction (the Mother, i.e; parental object) may have also been in psychological bondage- and clung to the child.  (The easiest person to cling to- is a person who cannot say no.)

Maybe Mother was a Narcissist, and expected the child to reflect Mother’s World, maybe Mother was jealous or envious when the child started to show signs of self-responsibility or was passive aggressive about it, maybe Mother didn’t feel good about herself and turned her back on her child and withdrew.  Any of these combination's can make a child question their own autonomy and return to the parent for consolation and approval, abruptly ending all self-adventure.

Instead of raising her child to be authentic and with a solid concept of self, Mother subsumed and objectified the baby as a permanent part of herself. Mother may have adored the baby as a reflection of herself, causing the baby to mirror her moods or maybe Mother was never home causing the child anxiety and to cling to her - in response to Mother’s absence. Or Mother was anxious and then began to suspect and fear the child’s separateness which triggered her own separation anxiety and she began to scapegoat the child for having its own mind.  The child then stops developing and discovering (on their own) and returns to cling and console the Mother. The Mother, and perhaps Father in turn, said, “Who do you think you are? You are helpless and worthless!” scapegoating the child for its efforts to detach from them.

This taught the infant to hide the true self and provide a false self instead, one that was the perfect mirror to prove worthiness and to survive the whims of the hypercritical Parent. The child learned that to become something other than an “object,” a mirror for the parent… was wrong.  Any attempt to become self directed (something outside of the parent) triggered the Mother’s separation anxiety.  

Does the borderline love?  Yes. Does that love equate with freedom to be and live the way they want? No. Love has been taught to be a choreographed pattern of response to their own objectification (the nullification of their emerging self)-caused by the early caregivers and addressed by servitude, mirroring, and clinging behaviors to ensure that the Borderline is valued (to ensure that they survive.)  

To a Borderline: “Love is Bondage.” Borderlines are eager to please and be rewarded for their efforts. A "moral defense" is the tendency to take all the bad upon themselves, each believing he is morally bad so his partner (de facto caretaker) can be regarded as good. This is a use of splitting as a defense to maintain an attachment relationship in an unsafe world.(~ Fairbairn)

And because it's bondage, BPD is all about masochism and thoughts of persecution- and the expectations of being persecuted. If you had to narrow it down to a working hypothesis- it would be: child becomes victimized by a clinging and hypersensitive mother who shows separation anxiety whenever the child tries to detach. The child realizes that there is no other choice but to cling and formulates many acting out behaviors to this intrapsychic dilemma of “me- not me.”  The Behaviors become masochistically self-serving to the psychological construct that the Mother supplanted into the child’s mind- that the child is a kept person and has no ability to make her own decisions.  (In the child's mind, Mother is a sadist- and the only way to please a sadist is to self-sacrifice.)

The child’s anxiety arises in the teen-age years when she thinks of ways to step outside of Bondage and into adult life. Cutting, thrill seeking, impulsive sex (especially alternating between submissive and dominant sex) spending money, etc. are all ways to temper her masochistic anger and have it sadistically released (impulsively) to help offset the learned helplessness.  Often the result is a borderline who rails against abandonment (but clings for dear life) while harboring sadistic/masochistic fantasies which lead to self harm *to get back at the Master* (parents) for spite…

When the Borderline begins dating- it is the same outcome. Seductive mirroring, attaching, then clinging- then anxiety to offset the masochistic anger felt at being controlled. Her inability to self-soothe at her core and subsequently, release of tension with acting out behaviors - get attention at first, but now they are compulsive- and it’s no longer good. Et Voila’ you have the romantic partner turned into a de facto hypercritical, clinging parent who persecutes her. She is back in Bondage again.

You will be admired, adored and then clung to and when you attempt to peel them off and expect them to be self sufficient- they will use the only thing they were taught - sadistic SCAPEGOATING.  It's a hard pill to swallow- but you replaced the Parent. You will never *not* be scapegoated. The good news is: you actually got in there close enough to replicate the parent bond. The bad news is... .The scapegoating helps protect them. It's what they know. It's what they've been taught. There's nothing you can do to escape it- and every conversation you have after you've been split will only appear to them as sadistically motivated. To persuade them that you don't deserve the enemy behavior is pointless. They just dont understand it. In their minds, the conflict is with your behavior- not theirs. They may be confused- and admit they are confused- but they wont hear a word you are saying.

The Behaviors become self-serving to the psychological construct that the romantic partner (formerly Mother object in her mind) supplanted into the BPD’s mind- that the BPD is a kept person and has no ability to make her own decisions, is a masochist and is being sadistically persecuted.

The Borderline Self was not allowed to become “whole,” the outcome of a failure to separate and individuate from Mother during that pre-oedipal time- the curious, crawling, walking, discovering infant.  Masterson felt that the genesis of Borderline disorder is the infant getting stuck between two outcomes of separation and individuation.  The result being transfixed on Mothers reward (the on switch) and withdrawal (the off switch.)

The Borderline sees a withdrawing maternal part-image who enjoys the Borderlines helplessness and dependency. (Borderline Women and Men consistently replace this part-self image in marriage with Men and Women who foster dependency and infantilize them.)  The outcome of this withdrawing maternal image part is the idea that this person exploits- and is deliberately cruel. This triggers the fear of engulfment, but also activates abandonment depression. (The Borderline says: where will I go? Who will I cling to now?)

The rewarding maternal part-image is a strong, wonderful, idealized (all good) Mother who would save the Borderline from certain death. The outcome of the rewarding part is the *feeling good that never stays*that is, never forms the ability to self soothe without Mother- and a subsequent depression arises because that part of the self image that allows the self to feel protected is also being a helpless, clinging, needy child.

This is the failure to separate/individuate.

It took me awhile to realize this. Nothing would change. I would be and will be a scapegoat for the rest of my life. Reason enough to stop arguing about it- although I still get the urge... .It's been my greatest struggle- to let go of the outcome of something that never made sense. Now, it does. Hopefully you understand it too.  

References:

James F. Masterson

Melanie Klein

DW Winnicott

John Bowlby

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_relations_theory

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_F._Masterson

[TruthWillBeRevealed]

Thank you! This is incredibly helpful.

[RealEyes]

I still miss it but not the madness that erupted afterwards shocked

RealEyes, if we ever meet, fall in love and wild monkey sex, I promise not to erupt into madness afterwards. I'm just sayin'.

I love my man to control me, do what he wants to(well to a point) for i was teaching my xBPDbf to do  He was truly a good pupil, i mean lover until, uhhh,, until he tried to turn me into his personal Laptop  :'( i couldnt, or wouldnt turn off and on when he demanded me to  ?  he lost it n 3 months like i've never seen any of my Xs do, so scary but also very learning for me, as well thanks to this forum and some other factors.  I now have a TPO on him, had to, cant even go nto the same gym as me anymore (only the 1 branch of about 7) nor the library (we have 27 branches) where i work, got the order today

Men as well as Women BPDs are hard on us that truly want to love them with all our hearts only to be treated like an enemy, thank goodness for this forum!

i feel sad this all had to happen but... .

[Valentine09]

My exgf, like a lot of BPDs mentioned on here, flip-flops all the time on her feelings toward people and omits important facts.  In my book, I consider that lying.  

For example, she had sex with a guy while I was out of town, but to her  it wasn't technically intercourse but there was the possibility of her getting pregnant or an STD.  This was of course only a couple days after she told me how great a guy I am and that we might be able to have a great relationship.  I asked her why she did this at the time and she said she wanted it to happen, to be taken advantage of.  The last time I heard from her (when she was trying to win me back and I was being ultracritical of her past) she minimized the entire event by saying simply that they were naked and she did the minimum to keep the guy happy but didn't enjoy it.  Then she would flip-flop about her feelings for this guy from "he's a really great guy and a strong christian" (yeah, I don't think so) to "I don't like him, it was a purely sexual relationship, and I wasn't even really attracted to him".  

And then she would flip-flop about how she felt about me.  One day I was attractive and the next day I was completely ugly.  One hour I made her feel great and the next I was completely annoying her and she didn't want me around.  It was nuts.  

 



They can't keep their story straight, period.

[RealEyes]

Can you please tell me what kind of lies your BP told (what were they about?) , the effect on you? What happened after?

The BP lied about enjoying the same things i did, as in camping,, hiking, working out, having sex at least 3 times a week, etc... ,, the effect was me leaving Him in 3 months when he imploded again and again and again after making love. Subsequently shrapnel from Him imploding flew long and wide for 2 months.