Something unexpected happened...

[northerndragon]

Something very strange and unexpected has happened... .

... .I've met someone.

I wasn't looking for it to happen or expecting it to, and didn't even think it was possible, honestly. I worry it is too soon, and kept trying to keep it from happening, and have been careful because I am so wounded from the relationship with my uxBPDw. But at the same time we simply clicked together so well and unexpectedly. I keep double-checking myself to make sure I'm not blindly throwing myself into something just because of hormones or emotions or a need to be loved. But my T thinks this is good for me and has encouraged me to pursue it.

And I will say it has been a strange and different experience than the relationship I had with my BPD ex. Completely different than what I was used to; I had no idea a relationship could actually be like this. I feel actually cared about without any effort on my part, like I'm actually a member of the relationship and not just along to take care of her, and not walking around on eggshells constantly worrying about what I should or shouldn't say or do (well, I still do that... .a bad habit learned over sixteen years is hard to break).

I worry, too, that it isn't better, really, and that a few months or years down the road it will all crumble and I'll be dropped back in hell. So I'm gun-shy about the entire situation, but my T has encouraged me to stop worrying about that so much, and simply enjoy and go with it. And I've talked with the woman I met about all this, too, and have been consistently surprised how supportive and understanding she has been about all of this... .garbage I'm left with and trying to deal with.

Interestingly: it turns out she went through the exact same thing I'm going through with my ex many years ago with her own ex, and knows exactly how I'm feeling and why. She has been extremely patient and caring despite all my insecurities and fears and worries and all the crappy baggage my ex left me with, because she gets it. And, frankly, it's nice. My relatives tried to understand, but didn't, and gave invalidating, terrible advice about how to deal with the situation. She doesn't. She's been there.

Though I do keep worrying about what happens when/if my ex shows up and decides she wants back into my life... .because my feelings for her are still unresolved, and probably will be for a long time, if ever. But I've committed myself finally to disengaging from her and just letting her destroy her own life as she will, and continuing to take care of the kids and protect them from it, while helping them heal from the emotional wounds she's left on them as best I can. But I still worry about how I would handle her deciding that she wants to come back--not that I see that happening right now or any time soon, so I shouldn't even be concerning myself with it. I think I'm at the point where I would say "No. It's just not happening. I don't know who you are, who it is you became over the last year, and what this person you became did to us was inexcusable. I love who you used to be, but you became someone I don't like."

[artman.1]

northerndragon,

     Don't even think about it!  NO!   Just enjoy your new girl and stop going back into HELL!

Once you are free, stay free.  You don't want back in prison, do you?  I have posted back to you before, about how dangerous it is to do what she is doing.  I hope you can realize the serious nature of her behavior.  My sister in law was with her groups and got AIDS.  That is a terminal disease, and is available through promiscuous behavior.  She has had it for almoast 30 years, and takes medicine that costs hundreds of dollars per dose.  She is in, and out of the hospital frequently with stuff you wouldn't want your worst enemy to have.  It is extremely hard on all of her family, and her daughter.  Each time she has to go in the hospital, it might be her last time.  Your W is messing around with fire.  You cannot possibly want that back, ever.

     Stay in there, and fight to get your life back.  Looks like you now have help...

Cheers, man,

      

[Annaleigh]

I would try to keep this as r/s lite and enjoy having a wonderful friend.  Does she get along well with the kiddos?  As wounded as we all are from the BPD blender, we need to guard our hearts a bit.  Not get into unhealthy triangles of victim/rescuer.  Just take it slow.

[northerndragon]

Thanks, Art. I still love her, but I'm coming to realize, or trying to realize the woman I love is not the woman she is now -- whomever she became. Regardless of all her other issues, the one I love wouldn't have done or been doing all the things she is doing now: wouldn't have cheated on me or abandoned her children or be screwing around with married men, regardless of her other problems. She's mutated into someone I don't recognize and wouldn't ever get involved with if I were meeting her now.

I have the first custody hearing coming up soon and in filling the paperwork out I had to try and keep the above in mind, and write down everything as accurately as possible, despite the hurt (and rage) it is going to cause (in her). I had to mention her emotional issues/instability, her disturbing friends and behaviors, her failure to contact the kids, her paradoxical claims, and so on, that she either denies or makes excuses for and so on. I felt dirty, like I was betraying her by saying all this -- and I know that's the FOG. Honestly, I feel afraid of what she might do when she reads that paperwork -- to herself or try to do to me. And I also know those statements are going to cause problems down-the-line with her, because she's just so volatile and unstable (in my opinion... .and, well, experience), but what else could I do?

It also helped me to go through with filing all those statements, and hang on to the conclusion she wasn't the same person anymore, that I found out recently from a couple of friends (F and C) she had told my good friend (A), who works with my kids, that I was planning on getting (A) fired... .except, SHE was the one planning on getting (A) fired, and had talked about wanting to do so in front of (F) and (C). So, thankfully, (F) and (C) set (A) straight, so (A) wasn't walking around thinking I was a backstabbing jerk. It was still incredibly frustrating and upsetting to find this out, because how could she do that to me and make that claim to (A)?

I'm trying to treat it like my actual wife died, and that this is just some crazy stranger I have to deal with. But it's still hard to do.

Annaleigh, we live a few hours apart, so we're rather forced to take it slow! The kids haven't met yet, but they've talked on the phone with her (their request) and they all like each other. We're all getting together soon so they can all meet her and her kids, and she and her kids can meet them. And, yes, still guarding my heart. Still lots of pain and worry and fear in there. Trying not to look at her as my rescuer (even though she is in some ways), don't want to build a relationship on that because that's no way to have a good relationship. Avoiding anything that looks like "I love you because you saved me from... .". But, yes, still scared and worried that might pop up on either side. Trying to look at it in terms of shared interests, compatible personality traits, and whether or not we both do little things that say "I care".

It's difficult going for me because I worry so much about falling into another romantic trap, about what happens a year down the road or five or ten because of what happened with the ex, and all the emotional/reactionary baggage I've been left with from her. So it is probably a good thing we don't live closer and can't rush into anything, and have to talk through all these things instead.

[Annaleigh]

I'm really happy for you that you've met somebody you enjoy spending time with together.    Do you mind me asking how you met?  I'm just wondering how people meet anymore!

I've read that pwBPD say awful things about us, not to be mean or vindictive, but to garner sympathetic support.  If saying Obama is a dunderhead gets me a chocolate bar, I'll do it.  It's not personal towards you, even though it feels like it.     You've got to be honest to protect the kiddos.  :'(  I understand how tough that probably feels, it goes against our grain as peacemakers.  Stay strong!

[Auspicious]

Though I do keep worrying about what happens when/if my ex shows up and decides she wants back into my life... .because my feelings for her are still unresolved, and probably will be for a long time, if ever.  {... .} But I still worry about how I would handle her deciding that she wants to come back--not that I see that happening right now or any time soon, so I shouldn't even be concerning myself with it. I think I'm at the point where I would say "No.

This part worries me a bit. Is this fair to the new person? And are you in a healthy place to start something new, yet? (Just some questions)

[northerndragon]

This part worries me a bit. Is this fair to the new person? And are you in a healthy place to start something new, yet? (Just some questions)

That worries me, too, quite a bit. So much so I took a leap of faith -- a leap because before trying to talk about my feelings with my ex was always a proposition that often led to being emotionally wounded (ie: blamed, ignored, guilted) -- and talked openly with the woman about this early on, asking how fair is it to her for me to still feel this way and to have a relationship with her.

To her credit (and to my relief), she hasn't run screaming, and said she understands, having been through the same thing herself. Her response was basically "shut up and don't worry about it, I'm a big girl". Which is a refreshing change from constantly having to worry about and take care of my partner's emotional state -- I'd be double-guessing the heck out of that if this were my ex, wondering what she was hiding and not wanting to say, when she would blow up in my face about it... .well, I still am (habits created over more than a decade are difficult to break), but know I shouldn't be and tell myself she isn't her when I catch myself doing that.

At the same time, I realized that the fact I don't know what to do if my ex shows up tells me I'm at least as angry with my ex as I am still in love with her. It tells me there would be serious problems in my ability to handle taking her back after everything she put me through, because there are many days when I am so angry I never want to see her again, and I simply don't trust her and don't know I ever really could again after this. Knowing those things, despite not knowing how I'd react if she wanted to come back, I am forced to ask how I could honestly rebuild a healthy romantic relationship with her under those circumstances?

So, am I in a healthy place to start something new? I don't know. I ask myself that all the time. But at some point I guess the only way to tell is for you to dive in and see if you are.

[northerndragon]

I'm really happy for you that you've met somebody you enjoy spending time with together.    Do you mind me asking how you met?  I'm just wondering how people meet anymore!

As strange as it might sound: on-line, through one of those dating service/people meeting sites. I was looking to make some new friends, just to feel like a human being again, get out of the house, and so on, and we happened to hit it off. Spent a couple weeks chatting, then decided to meet one another and had an exceptionally good time together when we did. The most enjoyable time I've had in ages.

I've read that pwBPD say awful things about us, not to be mean or vindictive, but to garner sympathetic support.  If saying Obama is a dunderhead gets me a chocolate bar, I'll do it.  It's not personal towards you, even though it feels like it.     You've got to be honest to protect the kiddos.  :'(  I understand how tough that probably feels, it goes against our grain as peacemakers.  Stay strong!

I've heard that as well, and I don't doubt it. But there's really no difference in the effect on me, regardless of the why. If someone shoots me, it really doesn't matter why. Someone shot me! Same thing here, she may be doing it because it gets her sympathy and attention and makes her feel momentarily safe and fulfilled, but that doesn't stop it from hurting me deeply.

[LW1968]

Wow.

All those posts about your wife & you're on an online dating service?  Seriously? 

When did you sign the divorce paperwork & finalize everything?

[Annaleigh]

The devastation that ND has gone through recently, having a friend is a blessing.  This is hard stuff, no 'right' way, it's taking care of us as best we can.   

[LW1968]

So you'd be fine with finding out that your husband's on an online dating site and has found a "friend" through it during your separation because he's taking care of himself the best way that he can?

[northerndragon]

All those posts about your wife & you're on an online dating service?  Seriously? 

When did you sign the divorce paperwork & finalize everything?

I've mentioned this before, but it was probably lost in everything else: the ex and I were never legally married. There's no divorce paperwork to sign. We were simply together for a over a decade-and-a-half as husband-and-wife and (supposedly) committed to each other. But I'm not sure why, even if we had been "married" in the piece-of-paper-filed-with-the-State sense, it would matter?

In the past year my ex has had full-blown emotional-and-physical relationships that I know of with three men (all married), and (at least) one of those went on for six months before she left me. That doesn't include whomever she's been letting "use" her now as part of this screwed up cult she's in, making at least two more "relationships" that I know about.

And that doesn't include the women she's had relationships with, either, as part of the dynamic of this group she's with -- two that I'm now aware of, both of whom she was involved with while we were together, though I don't know to what extent at that time (but have some pretty good ideas about... .still just supposition), and there's one other I suspect. At least one of those was a relationship between her, the woman and the woman's boyfriend (who is married to someone else).

Nor does it include the woman I found out she was pining-after for a year while we were together, and it doesn't include the on-line relationships she was secretly having with two or three other men for a few months around when she met this group and started the affair last year.

And these are only the things I've managed to find out about! I don't know if there's more... .

Which is why I now run back through our entire history together and wonder what else was going on all those years... .if there were things happening I just didn't realize, if she was able to keep quiet enough and there was no paper trail for those. Like the times she would spend the night at her friend's house for a girl's night out, and so on... .was something going on there? I want to believe this is recent behavior because of this group she got involved with, but now I just don't know... .

So, I'm sorry, LW, but what exactly are you trying to say? Was what I did so horrible and worthy of a "wow... .seriously"?

I feel guilty enough about having done so -- like I'm somehow "cheating" on a relationship that doesn't even exist to her anymore -- without someone calling me a hypocrite or bad person or cheater or whatever you are implying I am doing here, or whatever failing you are seeing in me?

You're chastising me for joining an on-line social networking service after she had been gone for over four months, and after almost a year of being treated like an annoyance or like I had the plague by her -- for doing something so that I could feel like I was maybe a human being again and not a disposable doormat?

It isn't as though my wife and I were in a "separation" and thinking about divorce because of her behavioral issues or confusion about what she wanted; she cheated on me at least once, and then abandoned our relationship and her children to join a disturbed cult, has had a half-dozen or so relationships herself including secret ones when we were together, and has expressed absolutely zero desire to ever come back to her life or to me. If I wasn't calling her for the kids they wouldn't even hear from her because we have apparently ceased to exist in her world as an item of any real importance.

So how long "should" I have waited? What "should" I have done instead?

It's been nearly six months now since she walked out saying she didn't love me and didn't want to be a wife or mother.

Would it be better if I went back to wallowing in self-pity and bawling myself to sleep every night hoping that she'll see the light today and come home? Back to putting my entire life on hold waiting for her, hoping tomorrow I will be allowed to feel better, that she will want anything to do with her family again? Letting her continue to control everything even now that she isn't even here?

And should I forget all about the other men (and women) and the cheating and her casually ripping my heart out and hurting the kids because her instability and chaotic needs took precedence over everyone and everything else? How could I meet another human being, and not sit at home patiently waiting for her to finish having sex with every man and woman she wants to before (if ever) deciding her kids and husband are actually worth something afterall, and I just take her right back in like nothing happened and it was all entirely OK?

And how healthy would that be for me or the kids (or even for her, I suppose)?

Even saying it all out loud like that, and rationally horrified by the idea that I should have any attachment to her still or ever even considered taking her back, I am still horribly confused and guilty about moving on. I suspect that is the FOG. That she counted on me reacting that way, so she can go do whatever she wants without caring about the effects of it, destroy our lives and still be able to come back when she tires of her "new life", without any real consequences. Be her backup plan.

Is it wrong that something more than friendship happened unexpectedly with someone I met... .and happened when I'm clearly not in a relationship anymore, just clinging to the ghost of one?

It's not that I can't see where you're coming from, but I don't think your response is fair in this instance.

I wanted to meet new people. I wasn't looking for a long-term relationship, or even a relationship (and no, not sex either, which I wasn't looking for at all), I was looking to get out of my house and meet new people before I finished going insane being stuck inside the house I bought for her, with our kids, in the city she wanted to live in, waiting for her to come back, knowing she was off screwing other guys and otherwise "servicing" them, because somehow I wasn't "good" enough after a decade-and-a-half of sacrificing everything for her, and suddenly her kids were just an impediment to her happiness.

I was trying to put the pieces of my life back together, be an adult with friends and interests and some kind of social life -- something that had been denied me since I met her because if I ever left the house without her I was made to feel guilty for it, even if the words "go on and get out of the house" were uttered in completely accepting sincerity (because later my leaving would be used to guilt me and attack me, because she wasn't going out anywhere; and it would be about how I got to go out and she didn't because she didn't have anyone to go out with -- having chosen to wreck those relationships -- which was somehow my fault and my going out was abandoning her at home and being a jerk to her, etc).

I don't think I should feel guilty.

Nor does my T, despite my whining about feeling that way. She actually encouraged me to pursue this, regardless of my own reservations and guilty feelings. Told me to stop worrying, that my ex sure wasn't worrying about me or our "relationship"... .because at that point "what relationship?"

Gone for six months, had an affair, having multiple relationships on her end... .

... .why am I the bad guy for going on a date?

I do understand why you might react the way you did, and would even agree with you if all this other stuff hadn't been going on with her, but are you sure yours was an entirely appropriate reaction in this case? (Curious: even if we had been "legally" married and still were so? I'm not sure what a broken promise on a piece of paper would change. She would still be gone and cheating and I would still be alone and abandoned, no matter what the State has on record for tax purposes at that moment. I don't think that would make it a sin to start dating in this circumstance. Do you feel differently?)

Anyways, while I don't really appreciate the take, thank you for speaking up because it's still helping me work through this, to think about everything in perspective and so start taking control of my life back. It's made me examine and put into words things I hadn't yet, that I was just feeling, or knew but trying not to look too closely at.

[LW1968]

Because for several weeks your posts gave me the impression that you wanted your ex to change so that you could have her back in the relationship.  Switching gears so suddenly appears to me to be revenge for what she did to you and not pursuing a new relationship because you're ready for it.  In fact, the first few paragraphs of your answer is regarding all the times your ex stepped outside of your relationship, as if it's justification for what you are doing now.

It's one thing to foster an already existing friendship into more of a relationship, but something totally different to join an online dating service.  It's the difference between stumbling over something & going to the store to look for it, see what I mean?

You even said that you're still feeling guilty and confused about moving on.  If you can't acknowledge that in that state, it's REALLY false advertising to be putting your goodies out there on a dating site, well then... .god help the woman you're dating right now.

In no way would I advocate sitting around pining for what's lost.  But I also don't think you're yet in a place where a new relationship is the best solution.  It smacks of what those with BPD do sometimes... .running from one person to another to ease pain before confronting what's going on internally first.

[tuliplover]

I agree. ND, we've all been there... .but there is an innocent bystander who potentially could be greatly impacted by your choices right now. I'd really think twice about getting into something with someone else. Especially someone you met on-line.

[Annaleigh]

We are only human, ND's SO has been gone for some months.  We get lonely, having a friend can be a blessing when we are dealing with such a hard situation.

Since I am married and I'm seeing my H, I wouldn't bother with dating.  I find friendship here, in bible study and celebrate recovery.  If me and H were NC, I would seriously consider dating.

The BPD blender puts a serious hurt on our self esteem.  Dating people without the baggage isn't a bad thing for our recovery.

There's dating for friendship.  There's dating for potential partners.  There's dating to just get out of the house.

Dating doesn't have to be serious commitment.  ND has already said, he is taking it slow.  The man deserves some happiness and if he finds it with this new friend, I don't see anything wrong with it.

[just_think]

Same thing is happening with me. 

I don't know her that well yet, but I think she is a non as well.  I'm picking up on the vibes in any case.  It's so refreshing to have a normal conversation and not worry about her freaking out :D

[Auspicious]

I'd just point out that this logic is the same logic, no matter who uses it (BPD or non).

"You treat me terribly, I deserve to be happy, it's so nice to be with someone who doesn't treat me the way you do, etc."

When the pwBPD does it, we read about it here on bpdfamily.com, with outrage.

[OnceConfused]

Northerndragon:

How do you empty your cup of stagnant and festered water? - By pouring in new fresh water.

This new r/s is exactly that fresh water for you. Slowly and with time, the fresh water will completely replace the old water. As human being, we hate to be in the state of the unknown. We dont' want our equilibrium to be upset. But just like the ripples on the lake from a rock, with time the ripples will die quietly and the lake will return to its mirror like state of peace.

Don't be afraid of the future and what is coming, my friend. Welcome it for it will make your life now and later a much more enjoyable journey.

Whenever you think of past and the potentiality of your x waltzing back into your life, go through your checklist of why you both had left in the first place? You can get back together but the r/s will never be the same, my friend, for so much pain and hurt had carved a permanent scar on both. Would it be better to start afresh and take what you learn in the previous r/s so that you can make the next one a much more beautiful one?

Take your time to explore life with this new friend. DOn't bother to look back too much on the road behind because you might not see the pot hole ahead and fall into it.

I learned so much from my short time w xBPDgf, and have applied many of what I learned into my marriage now. I am having such a great time now with my new bride. So will you, my friend.

[Annaleigh]

I'd just point out that this logic is the same logic, no matter who uses it (BPD or non).

"You treat me terribly, I deserve to be happy, it's so nice to be with someone who doesn't treat me the way you do, etc."

When the pwBPD does it, we read about it here on bpdfamily.com, with outrage.

Difference is... .they are delusional about how they are "abused" by us.   

Proud of you ND, for getting back up, for being there for your kiddos, for not letting this destroy you.

God bless.   

[OTH]

 

Great post.

I am feeling good about my own future right now. Life is wonderful again. I'm moving on finally.

Northerndragon:

How do you empty your cup of stagnant and festered water? - By pouring in new fresh water.

This new r/s is exactly that fresh water for you. Slowly and with time, the fresh water will completely replace the old water. As human being, we hate to be in the state of the unknown. We dont' want our equilibrium to be upset. But just like the ripples on the lake from a rock, with time the ripples will die quietly and the lake will return to its mirror like state of peace.

Don't be afraid of the future and what is coming, my friend. Welcome it for it will make your life now and later a much more enjoyable journey.

Whenever you think of past and the potentiality of your x waltzing back into your life, go through your checklist of why you both had left in the first place? You can get back together but the r/s will never be the same, my friend, for so much pain and hurt had carved a permanent scar on both. Would it be better to start afresh and take what you learn in the previous r/s so that you can make the next one a much more beautiful one?

Take your time to explore life with this new friend. DOn't bother to look back too much on the road behind because you might not see the pot hole ahead and fall into it.

I learned so much from my short time w xBPDgf, and have applied many of what I learned into my marriage now. I am having such a great time now with my new bride. So will you, my friend.

[Marcie]

YAY!

[devastated1]

I've read that pwBPD say awful things about us, not to be mean or vindictive, but to garner sympathetic support.

If anyone, not just Annaleigh, can answer this.  How is that not just a mean person?  Why do we just say that they are ill?  Can you be ill and mean too?  If they are betraying confidences, repeating things out of context, etc to make you look bad, even if it is for their own sympathetic support, isnt that just mean behavior?

Thanks

[Buttercup555]

Good for you! I'm pleased and hapy that you have found the strength to move forward a little. As others say, there is dating for all kinds of reasons, and as you have shared your experience with the new lady in your life, if she has had a similar experience then she is with you eyes wide open.

In my mind, if the general consensus is that we are completely robbed of closure with a relationship with someone with BPD, then HOW are we supposed to date anyone else ever? Because if we never get closure, how CAN we be ready to date again? Therefore we are stuck dating a new person, with feelings for the exBPD still lingering, OR never dating again. And living, alone, crucified daily by the cruel lack of  closure.

Personally I don't think many of us nons have much choice. We either have to dip our toei into the dating world again, knowing full well we have unresolved issues re: the exBPD, or forver remain a social dating outcast. Alone.

Rock. Hard place.

I simply admire you for trying to move on with your life. And I feel awfully sorry that you had to experience something so painful in the first place. Hopefully your new love interest will not get hurt in the process. But as long as you are honest, that is all that can be asked of someone.Good luck!

[northerndragon]

I'd just point out that this logic is the same logic, no matter who uses it (BPD or non).

"You treat me terribly, I deserve to be happy, it's so nice to be with someone who doesn't treat me the way you do, etc."

When the pwBPD does it, we read about it here on bpdfamily.com, with outrage.

Auspicious, that's an interesting observation.

I have seen plenty of "Get out of there, now! You shouldn't be with someone who treats you like that!" advice on these boards regularly, from non-to-non. So what's the difference? I think because there are significant differences in the context the logic is used in: in cases I see here, the BPD partner's perspective about how they are being treated (or are treating the other person) is skewed and often delusional -- they actually are destroying the relationship and often even hurting the other person (while claiming they are the ones being abused).

There are plenty of good examples of the use of that logic, because there are people who should leave relationships precisely because the other partner treats them terribly -- anyone being abused by their spouse should get the heck out of their relationship and really should be with someone who doesn't treat them that way! So it's not bad logic, but it can be abused and used to rationalize hurtful behavior, which is what our BPD's do.

[OTH]

I've read that pwBPD say awful things about us, not to be mean or vindictive, but to garner sympathetic support.

If anyone, not just Annaleigh, can answer this.  How is that not just a mean person?  Why do we just say that they are ill?  Can you be ill and mean too?  If they are betraying confidences, repeating things out of context, etc to make you look bad, even if it is for their own sympathetic support, isnt that just mean behavior?

Thanks

yes... .They can be mean and are mean. Not a doubt about it. They are also mentally ill. This is where you can recognize that they are mean and cruel and do not make good r/s partners and walk away. You can overcome your anger for them by recognizing that their actions are dominated by their disordered thoughts. You can depersonalize their treatment of you because it was never about you. It was and will be anybody that gets involved with them. It is a repeating pattern. That is how you know it is a disorder. The woe is me act and talking bad about you to others brings them sympathy and rescuers so they don't have to feel bad about the breakup. This makes her the victim, you the persecutor, and the people she is saying bad things to... .The rescuers. This is the Karpman drama triangle.

www.therapyideas.net/triangles.htm

[once removed]

devastated,

because, partially, while they do have a sense of right or wrong, its no longer about that. it's about disordered thought. it's about means to ends. it's about validation. perception. justification. being a victim.

[northerndragon]

Because for several weeks your posts gave me the impression that you wanted your ex to change so that you could have her back in the relationship.

I did. But something changed over the course this past month, and now I'm not so sure. Coming to terms with it? Disengagement? I don't know... .

Almost zero contact from her. My choosing not to take responsibility for her bills anymore. Serving the custody paperwork. Moving her stuff out of the bedroom because looking at it kept hurting too much. The kids finally opening up about how much they hurt and how she wasn't a good mom to them. Her failing to even show up for the custody hearing... .Maybe it all added up and gave my brain the kick-over it needed to start that process and start doing what I've rationally known all along but couldn't accept or deal with emotionally until it had.

In fact, the first few paragraphs of your answer is regarding all the times your ex stepped outside of your relationship, as if it's justification for what you are doing now.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to read like that. You seemed very upset given there was no divorce. To me it seemed like you considered it cheating and couldn't understand how I could do so. I was trying to ask in return "How is this cheating in these circumstances? Can you cheat on a relationship that only exists anymore in your own head?" and "Is this really comprable to Analeigh's situation with her H?"

Did I misread your reaction?

You even said that you're still feeling guilty and confused about moving on.  If you can't acknowledge that in that state, it's REALLY false advertising to be putting your goodies out there on a dating site, well then... .god help the woman you're dating right now.

Again, I am confused. I thought I did just acknowledge that... ? (Or am I missing your meaning, LW?)

It seems like you think I might be leading someone on, falsely promising or implying I was looking for a long-term commitment? I was clear on the site that in terms of dating I wasn't looking for anything long-term or serious, that I was looking to go out and have fun and make friends first. And I was clear with her about that as well, before we ever met or decided to go on a date. So I don't think there was any false advertising of my goodies on my part?

She and I have talked about all this, too: my history, my confusion, my feelings for my ex, and so forth. And she has expressed she understands and is OK with it. My therapist and I have discussed it extensively as well, and she has encouraged me to get over feeling guilty -- because there isn't anything to be guilty about, and the guilt is just a manifestation of existing anxiety issues that I have to come to terms with regardless and stop letting control me.

Really: I went on a date, I didn't try to bring a wife over from China. And yes, much more happened emotionally than I suspected ever could again. And, yes again, that's confusing (and surprising), but I think this woman and I are approaching everything sensibly and maturely. (And, frankly, being able to talk to someone who isn't going to flip their nut at the drop of a hat is refreshing, and if anyone here doesn't like that... .well, ppphhhhhtttttbbbll to them! :D )

As to feeling guilt and confusion: you and I should both know from the experience of being put through the wringer of guilt by our BPDs many times that just because you feel guilty doesn't mean you are. I feel guilty, yes, but rationally what is it I should feel guilty for or about? I'm feeling guilty for "cheating" on a relationship that doesn't exist anymore, that I want but am not going to get and can do nothing to make happen. And it's confusing because we were together for sixteen years... .I don't know how anything post-relationship in those circumstances could not be confusing, even without the BPD thrown in!

I do have to say I felt personally attacked when you said "god help the woman" -- it makes me think you are calling me a selfish/dangerous predatory goon, which I don't think is fair if you were. But I don't know that was your intent, and I understand and appreciate your concern for her. Maybe what she says to me when I get all concerned about hurting her somehow will help reassure you, too: "Honey, I'm a big girl."

In no way would I advocate sitting around pining for what's lost.  But I also don't think you're yet in a place where a new relationship is the best solution.  It smacks of what those with BPD do sometimes... .running from one person to another to ease pain before confronting what's going on internally first.

I totally agree. That's why I talked with my therapist and local support group about it extensively before I went ahead and did anything, and have continued to do so, because I didn't want to fall into the trap of "I need this to save me and give me happiness! You are saving me!" or do something I really wasn't ready for.

You also said something else that strikes me, about a relationship being a solution. No one is ever in a place where a new relationship is a solution. Or at least a relationship shouldn't be a solution. I think, importantly, I'm not looking for one to be this time -- when I met my ex, I was looking for it to be that. The way I'm approaching this one, and relationships in general now, is very different from the "OMG, I HAVE TO HAVE a relationship. I NEED to be with someone." that was the way I felt about relationships before, that having one would fix everything. And I ended up with my BPD-ex.

[once removed]

i like that "honey im a big girl" thing she keeps saying. that's confidence. it's certainly NOT BPD. it's not a   its a 

[once removed]

northerndragon,

we can't always help when a good thing comes into our life. it does kind of fly in the face of most of the advice on these boards. normally i'd advise you against it. but i do think you and your partner are handling it very maturely, and very well.

[2010]

Trying not to look at her as my rescuer (even though she is in some ways)

And you are still married and feeling persecuted and victimized? Why does your therapist think that triangulation (read definition) with another woman is a good idea at this point? Especially one that mirrors and agrees with everything you say and helps you split black your persecutor as a shared trauma experience?

To have a therapist encourage you in this regard is further diluting the opportunity for personal growth that comes out of the solitude of the self.  You need to heal and prepare for divorce without adding on additional personalities that may enable you to use them as personal crutches (and they to use you to feel better about themselves.) True recovery doesn't rely on other people to temporarily fill your cup- it only distracts you from the task at hand.

You are right to worry about your unfinished business with your Wife.  It's not going to go away until you resolve the conflict with divorce, heal yourself and then be alone and be OK with yourself before you begin dating again. Otherwise this is going to be a long drama triangle that replaces your personal responsibility with your reactions to the actions of three people; not two. One rescuing (controlling) woman brought into play against all odds of failing her mission ensures your suffering. Ask your therapist about Steven Karpmann and his drama triangle. If the therapist hasn't a clue- seek new counsel.

[northerndragon]

And you are still married and feeling persecuted and victimized?... .etc.

No, I am not still married. No, etc. Please read through the posts above.

And while I do not find your perspective or interpretations accurate, I thank you for the concern.

[LW1968]

Nah, I didn't intend to describe the situation as cheating.  I apologize for doing that. 

The triangulation (read definition) thing---that was more descriptive and accurate regarding what I was thinking.  And I agree totally that you can't wait for closure because so often it just doesn't happen.  Both are good points.

I thought you were leaving options open with your ex in case at some point down the road, she were to get into treatment.  In other words, not together now, but not completely finished on your own terms with her.  That's why I thought the whole dating thing sounded like you were trying to find solace by having another relationship to occupy your thoughts.

I still see a huge difference, though, between deciding you're healthy enough to be alone & advertising yourself as dating material on a website.  I don't think you're selfish or predatory, but I do question one month (?) being adequate time to heal everything & be in the correct frame of mind to consider yourself dating material.   

[devastated1]

yes... .They can be mean and are mean. Not a doubt about it. They are also mentally ill. This is where you can recognize that they are mean and cruel and do not make good r/s partners and walk away.

devastated,

because, partially, while they do have a sense of right or wrong, its no longer about that. it's about disordered thought. it's about means to ends. it's about validation. perception. justification. being a victim.

OnTheHorror, luckystrikes,

Thank you for your replies.  I guess my question is do they know that they are being mean?  Is it mean behavior or are they really evil people?  Bc if they werent disordered then the behavior would clearly be evil.  Does the disorder really screw up their brains that they dont really see the evil that they did and somehow convince themselves that we are the persecutors?

northerndragon,

I think that you are doing the right thing.  You have to move on with your life and you were honest to this women.   You deserve a lot of credit for that. 

You also deserve to be happy!

[tuliplover]

I'm very concerned hearing the "I'm a big girl" comment. To me, that's a red flag that no one seems to notice. If she's a big girl, she would look at the situation and run, or jog on another path until you've got things a bit more straightened out.

ND, a healthy woman would not want to interfere right now. She just wouldn't. There is a lot of pain written in between the lines of your posts, especially regarding your kids. They deserve their father to be focused on them and only them right now. They are the most innocent victims of all. A strong, healthy "big girl" would do the right thing and tell you to take some time for you and your kids. She'd tell you to that she cares about you and that if a relationship is meant to be, it needs to happen in the future not now. This girl sounds like she wants some drama in her life. She sounds as if she wants to rescue you. And why? Because she can avoid what ever is happening in her own life.

I'm not saying you don't deserve a happy adult relationship life. YOU DO! But my concern for you is this woman seems to be saying just what you want to hear, is coming along at a time in your life when you are incredibly vulnerable, and so are your kids.

I don't think you are hurting her. I think she could be manipulating you, though.

I apologize if I've offended you in anyway. I know it's a struggle. You sound like a really great guy, who has been through an awful lot.

[once removed]

I'm very concerned hearing the "I'm a big girl" comment. To me, that's a red flag that no one seems to notice. If she's a big girl, she would look at the situation and run, or jog on another path until you've got things a bit more straightened out.

actually, that's not a bad point at all.

[OTH]

In their  minds you are the mean and cruel person. You have become the source of their pain and frustration. They feel they are acting out of necessity to protect themselves. It is nothing personal. You are simply another failed relationship in their life of failed relationship after failed relationship. It is a disorder. It has nothing to do with you or your actions.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=144802.0;all

Read through this post. I give my best explanation of it... .and then 2010 expands on it. If you are really interested in the details of the disordered thinking click on 2010's profile. Scroll to the bottom. Than click on 2010s latest posts links. You can go back and read all her posts. Incredible insight into the disorder in her posts.

yes... .They can be mean and are mean. Not a doubt about it. They are also mentally ill. This is where you can recognize that they are mean and cruel and do not make good r/s partners and walk away.

devastated,

because, partially, while they do have a sense of right or wrong, its no longer about that. it's about disordered thought. it's about means to ends. it's about validation. perception. justification. being a victim.

OnTheHorror, luckystrikes,

Thank you for your replies.  I guess my question is do they know that they are being mean?  Is it mean behavior or are they really evil people?  Bc if they werent disordered then the behavior would clearly be evil.  Does the disorder really screw up their brains that they dont really see the evil that they did and somehow convince themselves that we are the persecutors?

northerndragon,

I think that you are doing the right thing.  You have to move on with your life and you were honest to this women.   You deserve a lot of credit for that. 

You also deserve to be happy!

[northerndragon]

I am at this point regretting having said anything at all about this on these boards. I was set up to have a very good weekend this weekend, and unfortunately because of my OCD, spent most of the weekend with the fear-based rhetoric of potential manipulation, the veiled suggestion I am BPD (triangulating (read definition), splitting, etc), and other unfounded statements running over-and-over through my head, wrecking what should have been a much more enjoyable time.

Is anyone here a therapist? And even if so, are they my therapist? No. Meaning they do not have enough of the information necessary to make a diagnosis about myself and the situation, let alone plant doubts about a therapist I have a years-long professional relationship with, nor about the woman I went out with, whom they know nothing about at all, or to accuse me of splitting her (of all things)! It is absolutely rude to play at being an expert diagnostician and tear not only me apart, but others as well, based on a few select comments from one thread.

As to the "red flag": would anyone have preferred I went out with someone who said, as a response to "I'd rather not see you get hurt," something like "Then don't hurt me!" as a BPD would do? Instead, to me, it feels like a positive (an emotionally healthy woman who isn't relying on me to take care of her feelings for her) was turned into a negative, into someone I should (for no good reason) fear and worry about as a manipulator and user. And the "no good reason" is the important bit: she has done nothing so far to indicate she is using me or trying manipulating me, despite my spending a great deal of time looking for just that (having had a great deal of experience with it).

I am already in a place where I don't trust anyone because of what happened with my ex, when I started dating as part of a program of exposure therapy, to get me past where I was still at a month ago: shoving everyone in the world away and deciding that if my wife of fifteen years could betray me like that then everyone could simply burn because no one ever was worthy of one iota of trust, friendship, or care.

I managed to find out that wasn't true, and then that discovery was spit on, whatever the motivation for doing so.

The thing about "the right thing" is that what one person thinks is the right thing to do isn't necessarily what another person thinks the right thing is. It's easy to get judgmental and decide that there's only one REAL way a MATURE person should approach a situation and that anyone who doesn't do it that way is manipulative and wrong -- but real life doesn't actually work that way. There are often multiple healthy paths and reactions to a situation, as many as there are unhealthy.

Example: some people stay with their BPDs and it works out, others flee or move on from them. Both types here are told "you should move on, get out of that relationship, that's the healthy thing" as though doing so is the only possible healthy, reasonable response by any rational adult (this approach has been a frustration of mine with these boards in the past). Here I find that same "only one way" thought cropping up again.

I really don't mind being asked, ":)o you think you're doing the right thing?"

But I despise being told, "You're not doing the right thing."

I dislike even more when friends or family or the trusted professionals someone relies on for balance and help are flat-out called ignorant, wrong, manipulative, and so forth by someone who doesn't know them at all, based on limited information.

After all, if I am in such a fragile and vulnerable state, don't you think trying to ruin the trust-relationship between my therapist (etc) and myself -- driving a wedge of distrust into that by claiming they are ignorant or unprofessional -- would be something you would want to avoid at all costs?

In my opinion, there has been too much supposition, assumption, and armchair psychoanalysis in this thread based on a very few lines about things, despite my saying nothing much about the workings of the actual r/s or the details of her history or any real details of the conversations we've had. To jump to a conclusion that there's triangulation (read definition) and splitting and mirroring and manipulation occurring based on that?

It's OK to be nervous, it's OK to ask, ":)o you think this is happening?"

It is NOT ok to jump to conclusions, it is not OK to state, "THIS is clearly happening."

Elsewise, could I not say in return, "You guys are trying to set yourselves up as my saviors, and the people I know and trust as persecutors. You're trying to make me split them black for you. I don't know why you have this savior complex and this need to protect people from themselves, as though you know best. You should stop living in the savior part of the drama triangle and creating persecutors for others."

But I won't ask that or think it or say it because that's stretching a little bit into a lot, filling in a lot of blanks with things from your own head, assuming "Malice is always the default! Always!"

I have to know best for my own life. And this is best right now. People I trust to keep an eye on me and tell me when I'm off-course think it is, too, after extensive conversations about this with them, and on-going check-ins.

So I do thank you for your concern, but I am setting a boundary: that is enough.

I'm not rushing forward blindly and emotionally here. I've said a couple times that I've discussed all this with my therapist and my local support group (which is headed by a different therapist). So when I say extensively, I mean extensively... .and I appreciate the concern here, I do, but they also know the situation much better than a couple lines about it here can express. I've really thought about many of these things already, and talked with people about them for a long time before I did anything about it, or announced anything here. (And I'm hoping this time the preceding little piece of info gets through, because it is important.)

Just the one month... .I know. I'm mystified by that. But it took me only two minutes to change me from sad to suicidal when she left. And where I'm at now is the result of five months of working through what happened... .is there supposed to be some sort of standardized timeframe for "when you'll feel differently", some sort of graduated percentile scale of feelings? That seems implausible. That there's some point where everyone can say, "Yep, you're good enough now!"

Yes, I'm vulnerable. Yes, I'm wounded. Yes, I'm carrying baggage. But I think this the better choice because it is making me confront the wounds I was left with, rather than letting those wounds dictate my life and reality and choices: which isn't to say those wounds aren't there, but they aren't definitional of me as a person anymore, just a thing I have and have to deal with now.

I'm sure some people here will disagree and believe you can tell yourself you aren't a terrible, worthless person and have to do that on your own. I'm not one of them. I believe very strongly that social feedback is required for your brain and your self-image to be healthy, with the caveat that, yes, it starts with you wanting it to be so yourself... .but if it's just you saying it, then it's just narcissism.

Can someone else enjoy my presence? Am I capable of being attentive and fun? Do I have something to offer? I thought so (or hoped so). Let's test that theory. And, yay, it was all true! My ex was wrong! What she did to me and said to me really was unfair! And it answered the question: am I better enough that I can do this now? It helped me gauge my own progress towards healing.

Insanity is doing the same thing over-and-over and expecting different results. Clearly the "just taking time for myself" mantra wasn't producing (good) results for me, because it wasn't letting me confront and heal the wounds I'm carrying.

And I enjoy knowing someone who understands the situation, who treats me like an actual human being instead of a glorious savior or evil parent figure, who is fun to be with and with whom I can go out and enjoy activities with, and whom it feels OK to trust and be actually open with (after years of not being able to do so because of the unpredictable backlash).

Finally, I apologize if this offends or hurts any of you. That isn't the intent. This was a very difficult weekend to work through because of the earlier posts, and after thinking about whether or not I should respond, I thought it might help someone else to see my reaction and thoughts about the situation not just thread-wise but the big r/s-picture. If any mods thinks it steps over the line or on anyone's toes, please do what you need to.

[Buttercup555]

I am at this point regretting having said anything at all about this on these boards. I was set up to have a very good weekend this weekend, and unfortunately because of my OCD, spent most of the weekend with the fear-based rhetoric of potential manipulation, the veiled suggestion I am BPD (triangulating (read definition), splitting, etc), and other unfounded statements running over-and-over through my head, wrecking what should have been a much more enjoyable time.

Is anyone here a therapist? And even if so, are they my therapist? No. Meaning they do not have enough of the information necessary to make a diagnosis about myself and the situation, let alone plant doubts about a therapist I have a years-long professional relationship with, nor about the woman I went out with, whom they know nothing about at all, or to accuse me of splitting her (of all things)! It is absolutely rude to play at being an expert diagnostician and tear not only me apart, but others as well, based on a few select comments from one thread.

As to the "red flag": would anyone have preferred I went out with someone who said, as a response to "I'd rather not see you get hurt," something like "Then don't hurt me!" as a BPD would do? Instead, to me, it feels like a positive (an emotionally healthy woman who isn't relying on me to take care of her feelings for her) was turned into a negative, into someone I should (for no good reason) fear and worry about as a manipulator and user. And the "no good reason" is the important bit: she has done nothing so far to indicate she is using me or trying manipulating me, despite my spending a great deal of time looking for just that (having had a great deal of experience with it).

I am already in a place where I don't trust anyone because of what happened with my ex, when I started dating as part of a program of exposure therapy, to get me past where I was still at a month ago: shoving everyone in the world away and deciding that if my wife of fifteen years could betray me like that then everyone could simply burn because no one ever was worthy of one iota of trust, friendship, or care.

I managed to find out that wasn't true, and then that discovery was spit on, whatever the motivation for doing so.

The thing about "the right thing" is that what one person thinks is the right thing to do isn't necessarily what another person thinks the right thing is. It's easy to get judgmental and decide that there's only one REAL way a MATURE person should approach a situation and that anyone who doesn't do it that way is manipulative and wrong -- but real life doesn't actually work that way. There are often multiple healthy paths and reactions to a situation, as many as there are unhealthy.

Example: some people stay with their BPDs and it works out, others flee or move on from them. Both types here are told "you should move on, get out of that relationship, that's the healthy thing" as though doing so is the only possible healthy, reasonable response by any rational adult (this approach has been a frustration of mine with these boards in the past). Here I find that same "only one way" thought cropping up again.

I really don't mind being asked, ":)o you think you're doing the right thing?"

But I despise being told, "You're not doing the right thing."

I dislike even more when friends or family or the trusted professionals someone relies on for balance and help are flat-out called ignorant, wrong, manipulative, and so forth by someone who doesn't know them at all, based on limited information.

After all, if I am in such a fragile and vulnerable state, don't you think trying to ruin the trust-relationship between my therapist (etc) and myself -- driving a wedge of distrust into that by claiming they are ignorant or unprofessional -- would be something you would want to avoid at all costs?

In my opinion, there has been too much supposition, assumption, and armchair psychoanalysis in this thread based on a very few lines about things, despite my saying nothing much about the workings of the actual r/s or the details of her history or any real details of the conversations we've had. To jump to a conclusion that there's triangulation (read definition) and splitting and mirroring and manipulation occurring based on that?

It's OK to be nervous, it's OK to ask, ":)o you think this is happening?"

It is NOT ok to jump to conclusions, it is not OK to state, "THIS is clearly happening."

Elsewise, could I not say in return, "You guys are trying to set yourselves up as my saviors, and the people I know and trust as persecutors. You're trying to make me split them black for you. I don't know why you have this savior complex and this need to protect people from themselves, as though you know best. You should stop living in the savior part of the drama triangle and creating persecutors for others."

But I won't ask that or think it or say it because that's stretching a little bit into a lot, filling in a lot of blanks with things from your own head, assuming "Malice is always the default! Always!"

I have to know best for my own life. And this is best right now. People I trust to keep an eye on me and tell me when I'm off-course think it is, too, after extensive conversations about this with them, and on-going check-ins.

So I do thank you for your concern, but I am setting a boundary: that is enough.

I'm not rushing forward blindly and emotionally here. I've said a couple times that I've discussed all this with my therapist and my local support group (which is headed by a different therapist). So when I say extensively, I mean extensively... .and I appreciate the concern here, I do, but they also know the situation much better than a couple lines about it here can express. I've really thought about many of these things already, and talked with people about them for a long time before I did anything about it, or announced anything here. (And I'm hoping this time the preceding little piece of info gets through, because it is important.)

Just the one month... .I know. I'm mystified by that. But it took me only two minutes to change me from sad to suicidal when she left. And where I'm at now is the result of five months of working through what happened... .is there supposed to be some sort of standardized timeframe for "when you'll feel differently", some sort of graduated percentile scale of feelings? That seems implausible. That there's some point where everyone can say, "Yep, you're good enough now!"

Yes, I'm vulnerable. Yes, I'm wounded. Yes, I'm carrying baggage. But I think this the better choice because it is making me confront the wounds I was left with, rather than letting those wounds dictate my life and reality and choices: which isn't to say those wounds aren't there, but they aren't definitional of me as a person anymore, just a thing I have and have to deal with now.

I'm sure some people here will disagree and believe you can tell yourself you aren't a terrible, worthless person and have to do that on your own. I'm not one of them. I believe very strongly that social feedback is required for your brain and your self-image to be healthy, with the caveat that, yes, it starts with you wanting it to be so yourself... .but if it's just you saying it, then it's just narcissism.

Can someone else enjoy my presence? Am I capable of being attentive and fun? Do I have something to offer? I thought so (or hoped so). Let's test that theory. And, yay, it was all true! My ex was wrong! What she did to me and said to me really was unfair! And it answered the question: am I better enough that I can do this now? It helped me gauge my own progress towards healing.

Insanity is doing the same thing over-and-over and expecting different results. Clearly the "just taking time for myself" mantra wasn't producing (good) results for me, because it wasn't letting me confront and heal the wounds I'm carrying.

And I enjoy knowing someone who understands the situation, who treats me like an actual human being instead of a glorious savior or evil parent figure, who is fun to be with and with whom I can go out and enjoy activities with, and whom it feels OK to trust and be actually open with (after years of not being able to do so because of the unpredictable backlash).

Finally, I apologize if this offends or hurts any of you. That isn't the intent. This was a very difficult weekend to work through because of the earlier posts, and after thinking about whether or not I should respond, I thought it might help someone else to see my reaction and thoughts about the situation not just thread-wise but the big r/s-picture. If any mods thinks it steps over the line or on anyone's toes, please do what you need to.

I’m really glad you wrote all of this ND, because I agree with all you say above. I read some comments in response to your first post and was scratching my head in confusion. You had clearly thought things through, and where simply trying to do the best, for you, and the new person in your life, as best you could. I’m sorry that you felt let down, but rest assured you had me as backing. I felt ALL that you just said. Every bit of it. I really hope you had a good weekend. You deserve happiness. I too have experienced a sense of some views here splitting people/ideas black. I know you are trying to take a step forward. That is so so brave. And great news. Hugs to you.

[Im done]

It seems like you think I might be leading someone on, falsely promising or implying I was looking for a long-term commitment? I was clear on the site that in terms of dating I wasn't looking for anything long-term or serious, that I was looking to go out and have fun and make friends first. And I was clear with her about that as well, before we ever met or decided to go on a date. So I don't think there was any false advertising of my goodies on my part?

Some strong opinions on this thread.  ND, you have to be prepared for that when you post on here... .

I personally think that if you've made your intentions and situation clear to the person you're dating, there's nothing wrong with it.  There are different purposes to dating - not all dates are intended to or will lead to a long-term commitment.  Very often people are not looking for a "relationship", they are looking to get out and enjoy some adult company and do things and just have fun.  There's nothing wrong with this, as long as the other person is completely aware of and informed of your intentions, which seems to be the case here.

I'm all for making sure you are healed and over the previous relationship before you enter another committed or serious relationship.  But sometimes it is good to just get out and have fun with someone who appreciates you. 

Someone you can laugh with.  Can actually be very good for one's self-esteem, especially if it's been battered to nothing.  Focusing on something other than the situation with an exBPD can be a relief and help get rid of some of the ruminations.  Realizing there are other people in the world and that other relationships are possible in the future made me more optimistic about what life without my ex could be like.  Getting out there and making new friends can be part of the healing process.

[once removed]

nd,

i want to make clear im writing this in support, specifically, support of you being in charge of/making your own decisions. like i said before, you can't plan for everything life throws at you. you have clearly thought through this extensively and i think healthily. if i were to give your posts the fine comb treatment i don't see a lot of denial or holes.

i've had my own frustrations a few times. just try to remember, strong opinions or not, everyone (or atleast the overwhelming majority) want to help, and are very well intentioned, and have your best interests at heart. it is true they don't always know your situation intimately. it is true there is some black and white thinking. unfortunately that's also the case because things have a way of nearly always working as predicted. there ARE things worth considering. no, no one is in a position to badmouth your therapist with certainty. COULD she be a lousy therapist? sure. so many are. the suggestion, on its surface, COULD be a helpful one. i don't think anyone meant to prompt great fears of the trust issue. i think a lot of this was as a result of miscommunication. that can happen on a message board fairly easily. i made a post and ended up receiving advice and feedback that i wasn't even asking for, pertaining to other details. in retrospect, i made those details way too much the focus of my post.

i think it's healthy to consider (and i think you have) all advice whether its applicable or not. you clearly have your own misgivings, questions, uncertainties, etc. you've identified that you're fragile, not fully healed, etc. i certainly don't expect you to be. there are legtimate concerns to that dynamic. i would not caution you away from the decision you seem to have arrived at. mostly because i wouldn't presume to know it well enough, but again, the three parties involved (you, her, therapist) SEEM to have thought through things. does that NECESSARILY mean you've all come to the healthy conclusion? of course not. i know in my own posting when tulip lover made me rethink the "big girl" comment, it was because she made what i thought was a very legitimate point, or suggestion, not because i suddenly thought something must be wrong with the girl. as for all the triangle stuff, there is something to it, and i've seen it in my own behavior, my exes (plural exes) behavior, etc. i do not like to slap labels on it, but the point is that these toxic relationships have a profound influence in what sets us up for our future relationships. i don't think you're ignorant to that, im just reiterating it. it is not always obvious. i've dated four of them and am only now identifying my pattern of behavior. no, im not a savior or rescuer, but i've got thinking and behavior that needs tending to, atleast if i want a healthy, stable relationship. so sure. there does maybe "come a time". there is also, i believe, a real need to heal on our own. can you (you personally or you generically) "heal" in a new relationship at this point? i dont have any idea. i certainly can't. but none of us are ever perfect, either. we all always have things to work on. we can't be on our own forever, and we're not meant to be.

anyway, the choice(s) are yours, just try to take what is applicable, and remember everyone WANTS to help.

[northerndragon]

Buttercup, thank you again! (I loved and agreed with your earlier statement about how having to be healed before you can do anything is a bit unrealistic, or a Catch-22 at any rate.)

Victimnomore, yep, that's exactly it for me. Battered self-esteem, getting out as part of the healing process, finding other people that let you be optimistic and realistic about life without your BPD partner. Which is probably why I've made more progress in the last month than before that, though I definitely needed that time to try and work through what I was facing.

Thanks, lucky, and I get that everyone wants to help. That's why I've repeated my thanks to everyone for their concern, but had to set a boundary about it now for my own health. Like I said, I really don't mind being asked, ":)o you think you're doing the right thing?" But I despise being told, "You're not doing the right thing." There really is a big difference. Particularly when some things get cherry picked and others ignored, or when someone has asked and I've already responded one-way or another. Etc.

And, yes, there could very well be a legitimate concern about triangulation (read definition) or mirroring or bad therapy... .I take that seriously... .but I also don't think anyone here is in any position to flat-out psychoanalyze anyone else, which is something I think anyone on bpdfamily.com needs to be careful about avoiding giving the appearance of, no matter how strongly we may feel about our opinion of a situation or person.

[once removed]

yes, you have to remember the choice is ultimately yours, knowledgeable as anyone here is, they cannot intimately know your situation. your boundary is healthy. you do not sound in denial at all. i agree there's a huge difference. i try to watch what i say pretty carefully. for example, i dont like to go around offering false hope, but we're all very fragile. when people have said things to me, even in the MOST benign way, like "let her go", "move on", "detach", it can really trigger MY sensitive sense of abandonment and really screw up my mood. i dont expect anyone to know that, but it happens. so i can completely understand that a lot of this would go so far as to screw up your weekend. i don't like to influence a persons decision even if i think they're making the wrong one. i guess i just like to toss out things to think about on both sides primarily. i guess what im trying to say is yes, we all ought to be more mindful and not operate on "certainty", and that i have absolutely no idea whether you're making the right decision or not, but that its your decision, you've clearly thought through it responsibly, and whether you're making the right decision or not, i support your decision and your right to make it. not that you need my blessing you've got a good head on your shoulders. it's fragile, and confused, but it's a good one. 

[AlexDP]

Buttercup, thank you again! (I loved and agreed with your earlier statement about how having to be healed before you can do anything is a bit unrealistic, or a Catch-22 at any rate.)

Victimnomore, yep, that's exactly it for me. Battered self-esteem, getting out as part of the healing process, finding other people that let you be optimistic and realistic about life without your BPD partner. Which is probably why I've made more progress in the last month than before that, though I definitely needed that time to try and work through what I was facing.

Thanks, lucky, and I get that everyone wants to help. That's why I've repeated my thanks to everyone for their concern, but had to set a boundary about it now for my own health. Like I said, I really don't mind being asked, ":)o you think you're doing the right thing?" But I despise being told, "You're not doing the right thing." There really is a big difference. Particularly when some things get cherry picked and others ignored, or when someone has asked and I've already responded one-way or another. Etc.

And, yes, there could very well be a legitimate concern about triangulation (read definition) or mirroring or bad therapy... .I take that seriously... .but I also don't think anyone here is in any position to flat-out psychoanalyze anyone else, which is something I think anyone on bpdfamily.com needs to be careful about avoiding giving the appearance of, no matter how strongly we may feel about our opinion of a situation or person.

That is all very true and going out and meeting new people and learning to trust again is definitely a good thing. It's a good thing to see that there are people who are far better for you than your ex.

But while I agree with you when you say that we shouldn't psychoanalyze other posters just like that, I have to admit that I would not date someone who talks to me about her ex. At all really. I mean, if the topic of your ex is something you build your relationship on, how could it be a healthy relationship? I'm not saying this is what you do, but I do think it's something to consider.

[AlexDP]

I'm not condemning you by the way. In fact, I'm starting to like a girl I'm seeing myself. And I think she's starting to really really like me as well. My ex isn't a topic though, I can't remember ever having spoken about her. When asked I would tell her, but I never think about the ex when I'm around her.

[northerndragon]

We both have exes who were messed up in the head, and have kids from those relationships, so the subject is a bit unavoidable on both ends. If you don't have kids with someone, then I suppose it wouldn't be much of a topic necessarily. Not that I'm going to go into deep detail about the r/s here, just saying once nice aspect of it was having it with someone who was in a similar spot, understood, and wasn't having major issues with the baggage that gets left because they went through the same at one point; not that that was the whole and entire basis for the r/s.

[snappybrowneyes]

Reading this thread just points out how differently we all think. Personally, I prefer people to be upfront and mean what they say. One of the things everyone complains about here is they (pbd) should come with a warning label, if I only knew ahead of time the pbd had issues, etc.

I think by you explaining your situation ND, that puts the ball back in her court. I took the big girl statement that she is going in eyes wide open. Those without children do not realize how long you will be bound to the xpbd spouse even after divorce. I think being upfront about where you are at this point in life is the responsible thing to do. It would become a problem if all you ever talked about was the exes. I think we are always growing as a person and I love the quote: bloom where you are planted! Right now you are ahead of where you were, improving,that is the goal. Just my 2 cents.

[northerndragon]

Thank you, Snappy!