Understanding why they 'withdraw' and the perceived 'cruelty'

[Depression = 72% of members]

Was talking to a friend I have not seen for ages who has retrained as a psychotherapist and talked to him about my experience with my exBPDgf. He told me they are the toughest of patients to get through to and as I was interested lent me a recent psychotherapy book that presents new theories on pathological organisation in borderline patients. The book is called Psychic Retreats, by John Steiner. In essence the argument is that borderlines (amongst some other patients) have learnt to avoid the pain of anxiety by 'retreating' to what he describes as a state of 'psychic retreat.' This is a rigid defense organisation and an idealised haven from the situations they cannot cope with. He notes that patients who have 'retreated' often keep sufficient contact with reality to appear 'normal' whilst evading its most painful aspects. He also notes (and I think this is very true based upon my own experience with the ex) that there are strong sado-masochistic links binding the 'psychic retreat' - to a degree that the patient may exhibit a controlling, bullying tyranny towards those around them, and this can develop a seductive hold on the patient as their 'tyranny' is inwardly idealised. Effectively BPDs become addicted to it, gaining masochistic gratification in the process. My interperatation of this is that they do know they are hurting people around them, and gain masochistic pleasure out of it. ie they hurt others to hurt themselves.  That's my theory, but then again maybe I should just stick to the day job!

[whydoIcare]

Was talking to a friend I have not seen for ages who has retrained as a psychotherapist and talked to him about my experience with my exBPDgf. He told me they are the toughest of patients to get through to and as I was interested lent me a recent psychotherapy book that presents new theories on pathological organisation in borderline patients. The book is called Psychic Retreats, by John Steiner. In essence the argument is that borderlines (amongst some other patients) have learnt to avoid the pain of anxiety by 'retreating' to what he describes as a state of 'psychic retreat.' This is a rigid defense organisation and an idealised haven from the situations they cannot cope with. He notes that patients who have 'retreated' often keep sufficient contact with reality to appear 'normal' whilst evading its most painful aspects. He also notes (and I think this is very true based upon my own experience with the ex) that there are strong sado-masochistic links binding the 'psychic retreat' - to a degree that the patient may exhibit a controlling, bullying tyranny towards those around them, and this can develop a seductive hold on the patient as their 'tyranny' is inwardly idealised. Effectively BPDs become addicted to it, gaining masochistic gratification in the process. My interperatation of this is that they do know they are hurting people around them, and gain masochistic pleasure out of it. ie they hurt others to hurt themselves.  That's my theory, but then again maybe I should just stick to the day job!

[LML70]

It's interesting that you say they hurt others to hurt themselves. My ex always told me her ex (whom she went back to every time we split--we recycled 4 times) was her "Hell" meaning her way of more self sabotage. I was alway threatened by her ex. Now that we are truly over, it is ironic that once again that is where she has ran too. But this time I know it is to hurt me when in reality it is only hurting her. This is truly a sad illness but one I am glad to no longer be influenced by.

[mitti]

I do think they know in one sense they hurt us but I don't think that (at least in my experience) they consciously want to. I wonder, and have talked about this with my uBPDbf, if it could be that they have such low self esteem that they do not feel they deserve to be loved, and so when we still love them in spite of their treatment of us, we fail in their eyes for how could we love them that are unlovable, what does that say about us and then they get angry with us for not living up to their idea of us. So perhaps they sabotage all of their r/s to bring about what they fear, abandonement, because they feel they deserve no better anyway. And when what you fear has already happened you do not need to fear it anymore.

At least in his case he seems to be nicer to people who are very controlling and domineering although with me he has accused me of trying to control him when that is exactly what I am not doing, you know, as they do.

[catnap]

I asked yesterday for another test to be done (in front of me) - she didnt seem happy about the idea, and said we could do it 'in a few days'. I'm not sure why in a few days - again, another one of the things that doesnt add up.

Don't see the point of waiting a few days. Peculiar, but can think of at least one reason:  how to falsify test in front of boyfriend.

[kem]

I do think they know in one sense they hurt us but I don't think that (at least in my experience) they consciously want to. I wonder, and have talked about this with my uBPDbf, if it could be that they have such low self esteem that they do not feel they deserve to be loved, and so when we still love them in spite of their treatment of us, we fail in their eyes for how could we love them that are unlovable, what does that say about us and then they get angry with us for not living up to their idea of us. So perhaps they sabotage all of their r/s to bring about what they fear, abandonement, because they feel they deserve no better anyway. And when what you fear has already happened you do not need to fear it anymore.

At least in his case he seems to be nicer to people who are very controlling and domineering although with me he has accused me of trying to control him when that is exactly what I am not doing, you know, as they do.

mitti, what you mention here makes a lot of sense to me and i can relate to your thoughts.  my exBPDgf would frequently ask me 'how much i love her' and 'why do i love her' and 'why am i so good to her' and 'why do i stay in this relationship'... .and she asked in such a way that was so unsure of herself as if she didn't deserved to be loved.  at least that's how i observed and interpreted it.  in one instance, when i gave her her christmas gift (which was a dress she really liked), she actually said to me she didn't feel she deserved such a nice gift.  so eventually, of course, as many on this board will understand, the more i loved her the more she seemed to push me away.

[once removed]

this reminds me of when my ex would go snooping through my history and messages and things.

she would frequently "find" things that weren't there. i called a girl "missy". somehow, this was clear evidence of flirting. nevermind that this person is actually someone i've never met or ever will meet. nevermind that she herself has called plenty of girls "missy." nevermind the flirting that she herself did.

i would of course, be pissed, whenever she snooped, as im entitled to privacy and demand it. and because i was not guilty of anything. but if you go digging, you're going to find something, real or imagined. in her case it was imagined. and yet i'd have to pay for it, fight about it, etc. i would tell her this. i would also remind her that people flirt. "flirting" can be and is normally harmless. NOT always. not in active practice. but you know, why go digging? she'd get this uncontrollable urge to do so. i can empathize. i snooped on her as well, toward the very very beginning. so i know the feeling. it is kind of masochistic. she'd tell me she did it because it felt so good to go, and to find nothing. WELL THEN WHY CONTINUE TO GO? and i think, again, having experienced it myself, it's a kind of masochistic impulse based on fear.

i also think it's what causes so many of us, after the breakup, to cyber peek at them. it's totally masochistic. we know better. we've all read that whatever we see is meaningless, but it's also going to upset us. so why do we go? that same masochistic impulse.

[ItsAboutTime]

Perceived cruelty would be something we identify through means of our senses, our intuitions. We identify it by small nuances in their tone or mannerism. But real cruelty is right out there, plain as the nose on our faces, there is no question about it.  I never perceived or wondered if my xBPDbf was cruel. It was clear, blatant and downright brutal at times.

But! He most certainly DID have his own perception of the things he said. He told me it was true and I deserved it. I'd asked him how he could say things so cruel and hurtful to someone he supposedly loved?

He told me that he's heard all those things said to him from when he was very little, and it doesn't bother him at all to hear them for himself, it doesn't hurt at all. He could never understand why it upset me so much, it puzzled him why I couldn't let it roll off my back like water off a duck.

I found that to be very dysfunctional thinking and that's when I began to get answers online through information about BPD. I knew that he was emotionally rejected by his mother and she was very hard on him all his life. She let him know from a very early age that he most certainly was not wanted. He'd created a self-defensive wall against it in order to survive and rise above it, an emotional shield.

Understanding the basis of his mental dysfunction and BPD didn't help our relationship. He will never admit how messed up his mind was. He did tell me that at 16 he contemplated suicide but that he worked it out alone and decided he wanted to live, to be something good for others, something he never had.

It's such a complex disorder, one would have to be super-human to be able to deal with a BPD. I was with him 3 years and we are now 'just friends', no more than that. I have no hold on him, nor he with me. Neither of us can have more than that together.

[whitedoe]

... .It's such a complex disorder, one would have to be super-human to be able to deal with a BPD. I was with him 3 years and we are now 'just friends', no more than that. I have no hold on him, nor he with me. Neither of us can have more than that together.

IAT, how did you manage to get to the point of being "just friends"? How wonderful... .just can't figure out how to get there?

[AlexDP]

I don't intend to be hurtful, but she had an internet relationship with her ex. I would love to be friends with my ex as well, but how on Earth would she cope with me having a life that doesn't revolve around her? Truth is, she probably wouldn't cope at all and try to inflict pain on me.

[ItsAboutTime]

IAT, how did you manage to get to the point of being "just friends"? How wonderful... .just can't figure out how to get there?

Posted on: Yesterday at 08:57:56 PM

Po

It wasn't easy to get to that point, it took months of talking and clearing the air from the past in order for us to reach an amicable solution. I had been total NC for a month before he contacted me and told me that he didn't want it that way, he still wanted to keep me as a friend. At first, I adamantly said 'no' to being put into the 'friend-zone'. Neither of us was happy being totally and abruptly out of each others lives. We had a lot of common interests and the same sense of humor. We just enjoyed talking with each other.

He made it clear to me that I didn't own his life, that I had no say in who he sees, where he goes and who he becomes friends with. I accepted that with the same conditions for him. It's been two months with this understanding and it seems to work for both of us. I have accepted the fact we'll never be anything more than friends and I'm okay with that. Now my life isn't tied to his. We see each other or talk on messenger when either of us feels like doing that without any commitment or promises. There's no mention of love and there's nothing more there than an understanding of how it will always be.

Now, if he starts irritating me with his attitude or poor choice of words, I tell him to 'shut up, go away, see you later' and I leave. The next day it's forgotten and he's behaving like a friend again.

[whitedoe]

IAT, how did you manage to get to the point of being "just friends"? How wonderful... .just can't figure out how to get there?

Posted on: Yesterday at 08:57:56 PM

Po

It wasn't easy to get to that point, it took months of talking and clearing the air from the past in order for us to reach an amicable solution. I had been total NC for a month before he contacted me and told me that he didn't want it that way, he still wanted to keep me as a friend. At first, I adamantly said 'no' to being put into the 'friend-zone'. Neither of us was happy being totally and abruptly out of each others lives. We had a lot of common interests and the same sense of humor. We just enjoyed talking with each other.

He made it clear to me that I didn't own his life, that I had no say in who he sees, where he goes and who he becomes friends with. I accepted that with the same conditions for him. It's been two months with this understanding and it seems to work for both of us. I have accepted the fact we'll never be anything more than friends and I'm okay with that. Now my life isn't tied to his. We see each other or talk on messenger when either of us feels like doing that without any commitment or promises. There's no mention of love and there's nothing more there than an understanding of how it will always be.

Now, if he starts irritating me with his attitude or poor choice of words, I tell him to 'shut up, go away, see you later' and I leave. The next day it's forgotten and he's behaving like a friend again.

This is amazing to me... .My exbf seems to never want to hear from me again... .It was like "snap", no more love, no more friendship, I no longer exist? Aghh... .I will never get this insanity!

[tuliplover]

I'm really struggling right now. The rollercoaster ride has taken a huge toll on me psychologically.

I don't understand how one day he wants me around then the next day he doesn't. He sets certain rules, which I try to follow and then he breaks them by calling... .and it's ALWAYS the day I wake up and tell myself I really don't care if I hear from him again. I swear he senses my attitude change! This relationship has been on/off for 19 months, and he's never once taken any responsibility for his actions but blames me for everything when he wants to be away then when he misses me he comes back and is a sweet as can be telling me how loving and supportive I am. At christmas he gave me the most beautiful gift I've ever received, something he designed himself and the broke up with me three weeks later, ultimately telling me the gift didn't really mean anything. I'm devastated by all this.

[wastedlife]

HI,

withdrawl is a replica of when they say they need space, and that is time they use for finding your

substitute and cheating on you aswell, once over they are back and the cruelty is a back-projection to their self-hatred for what they did.

wl

[lucnatmar]

I think a lot of their motivation is out of simple "fear".  Fear of facing who they really are, fear of facing what the truth really is (which is why so many BPD's redifine the truth to meet their own needs).  I don't think their first goal is to hurt people, but I do believe most know when they are lying, falsely accussing and causing harm, but they still continue their behavior.

It is really a matter of choice for them and they take the one that they have learned works best for them; which is to deflect all responsbility on to someone else and not be in a position to face the pain of dealing with who they really are.  Either way they create pain, but the latter is easier for them to deal with.  My wife not only is an expert at this, she has also latched on to religion as part of her shield.  Everything she does is "justfied" because she is "righteous" and putting her fingers in my face and calling me the devil (in front of our kids) is her taking that shield and protecting herself to the nth degree.

I would think, some of the scariest BPD's you will ever encounter, are the ones that have latched onto religion as a means to justify their behavior.

[whitedoe]

I'm really struggling right now. The rollercoaster ride has taken a huge toll on me psychologically.

I don't understand how one day he wants me around then the next day he doesn't. He sets certain rules, which I try to follow and then he breaks them by calling... .and it's ALWAYS the day I wake up and tell myself I really don't care if I hear from him again. I swear he senses my attitude change! This relationship has been on/off for 19 months, and he's never once taken any responsibility for his actions but blames me for everything when he wants to be away then when he misses me he comes back and is a sweet as can be telling me how loving and supportive I am. At christmas he gave me the most beautiful gift I've ever received, something he designed himself and the broke up with me three weeks later, ultimately telling me the gift didn't really mean anything. I'm devastated by all this.

Ohhh, I feel your pain, TL... .I have been on the "rollercoaster" of hurt and incredible confusion... .I can only imagine how hurtful it was to receive something so beautiful and heartfelt at Christmas only to have him "take it all back" with his cruelty and excruciating insensitivity... .Aghh, I know that place of pain only too well...

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

I kept “clinging to the memories of our amazing beginnings, the talks, incredible lovemaking, and the beautiful poems he wrote to me… the plans for our future together… I had not yet even heard the term “BPD” or “NPD”… not until he came down to celebrate Valentine’s Day with me (also our 2 year anniversary) and immediately blurted out to me upon entering my house that “he wanted to end our relationship and see other women”?  This was completely out of nowhere and I was left absolutely devastated, drowning in confusion and despair…

Since then, I’ve learned that my exbf is seriously mentally ill (BPD and very likely also NPD) and this site has helped me begin my healing journey…. The support out here is genuine and so caring… Please know that you are not alone, TL… keep posting and read all that you can on this site… We’ll “heal” together!

[ItsAboutTime]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…

My exBPDbf would say things like "I don't care" or "it doesn't matter either way" when we spoke of breaking up. I realized much later that he really did care, but not in a romantic way anymore, not the way that I cared. He wanted me as a friend because we had a lot in common. He didn't want me in a romantic way anymore. All of his words and actions proved to me over and over again that he really didn't care about losing me in a romantic way. Once they've separated from you emotionally there's no 'rekindling' that's possible. If we pressure them to renew that romantic relationship they recoil and don't want to be anywhere near us, we become pathetic to them and they start hating us for that. I knew that I didn't want to feel pathetic, I was losing self-respect. Once I came to terms with the 'neutrality' of the newly formed relationship, I became more at ease with the friendship.

They care, they really do, but they don't want YOU to think they care for you in a romantic-love way anymore. You have to force ambivalence upon yourself just as they have and separate emotionally. We can't all do that. Mine still wanted a friendship, and after months of struggling with the relationship changing in this way, I did accept it and had to realize it's just not the same as it was, and will never be that way every again.

[AlexDP]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…

My exBPDbf would say things like "I don't care" or "it doesn't matter either way" when we spoke of breaking up. I realized much later that he really did care, but not in a romantic way anymore, not the way that I cared. He wanted me as a friend because we had a lot in common. He didn't want me in a romantic way anymore. All of his words and actions proved to me over and over again that he really didn't care about losing me in a romantic way. Once they've separated from you emotionally there's no 'rekindling' that's possible. If we pressure them to renew that romantic relationship they recoil and don't want to be anywhere near us, we become pathetic to them and they start hating us for that. I knew that I didn't want to feel pathetic, I was losing self-respect. Once I came to terms with the 'neutrality' of the newly formed relationship, I became more at ease with the friendship.

They care, they really do, but they don't want YOU to think they care for you in a romantic-love way anymore. You have to force ambivalence upon yourself just as they have and separate emotionally. We can't all do that. Mine still wanted a friendship, and after months of struggling with the relationship changing in this way, I did accept it and had to realize it's just not the same as it was, and will never be that way every again.

That doesn't even sound like BPD to be frank.

[LightAtTheEndOfTheTunnel]

Ohhh, I feel your pain, TL... .I have been on the "rollercoaster" of hurt and incredible confusion... .I can only imagine how hurtful it was to receive something so beautiful and heartfelt at Christmas only to have him "take it all back" with his cruelty and excruciating insensitivity... .Aghh, I know that place of pain only too well...

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

I kept “clinging to the memories of our amazing beginnings, the talks, incredible lovemaking, and the beautiful poems he wrote to me… the plans for our future together… I had not yet even heard the term “BPD” or “NPD”… not until he came down to celebrate Valentine’s Day with me (also our 2 year anniversary) and immediately blurted out to me upon entering my house that “he wanted to end our relationship and see other women”?  This was completely out of nowhere and I was left absolutely devastated, drowning in confusion and despair…

Since then, I’ve learned that my exbf is seriously mentally ill (BPD and very likely also NPD) and this site has helped me begin my healing journey…. The support out here is genuine and so caring… Please know that you are not alone, TL… keep posting and read all that you can on this site… We’ll “heal” together![/quote]
White Doe i feel that pain and i still find it remarkable how all of our experiences are so similar... .yes they may be different people but honestly it sounds to me exactly what i have been experiencing ... .

[ItsAboutTime]

That doesn't even sound like BPD to be frank.

After researching BPD for over a year before we split up, and documenting conversations, I am positive he was BPD. Even the trauma of his childhood pointed to the reason for it. The history of his many broken relationships. His lack of empathy. His mirroring, his painting me white, then black. So many things, too many to even go back to think of. Yes, he is BPD, a very high functioning one.

[C12P21]

This is an interesting thread and one I will come back to and read closely and think about.

There are a few dynamics that go on with the reasons for cruelty and there are no clear answers.

The garden variety abusing, controlling person that lacks interspection about their behavior will abuse due to a sense of entitlement. S/he believes justified to hurt another "object" because this object has dissapointed their illusion of "perfect" love. Although this sounds like NPD-it isn't unless other components of NPD manifest themselves in the persons life. They know they are hurting another-they just don't care.

A sociopath enjoys hurting others as a means of feeling they have "won". It is a sense of accomplishment for them-to hurt an empathetic person that possesses the one thing they will never possess- a conscience.

You can usually tell the difference between the disordered, the dysfunctional and the those of us slogging along trying to figure it all out.

Empathetic people think about their behavior and apoligize-because they realize they have injured another person. They realize this because they are in touch with themselves and understand themselves.  

[AlexDP]

That doesn't even sound like BPD to be frank.

After researching BPD for over a year before we split up, and documenting conversations, I am positive he was BPD. Even the trauma of his childhood pointed to the reason for it. The history of his many broken relationships. His lack of empathy. His mirroring, his painting me white, then black. So many things, too many to even go back to think of. Yes, he is BPD, a very high functioning one.

Yes, I know and I am not doubting your diagnosis of him. I'm just saying that, this is relatively normal behaviour. I have gotten other ex's to grow cold towards me and I have grown cold towards them if either one of us still had romantic feelings.

I also don't really understand what you mean when you say your relationship is now a platonic one. From what I understand you never met this man in real life? I'm not grilling you, I'm asking because I'd like a friendship with my BPD ex, but there are considerable difficulties in pursuing one.

[C12P21]

have gotten other ex's to grow cold towards me and I have grown cold towards them if either one of us still had romantic feelings.

Passions may die down, or the relationship may change and evolve over time. A person with emotional integrity realizes that their feelings have changed-and are honest about those feelings without verbally abusing or controlling or blaming another person. Respectfully- you exit the r/s and can remain friends if the r/s has certain elements that can sustain friendship. It is up to the exiting partner to take the responsibility for exiting with compassion, closure and kindness.

A responsible person owns up to their feelings and doesn't gain power in behaving spitefully, cruelly, or indifferently to anothers feelings, and allows the partner to discuss their feelings.

A sexual r/s that "dies" down-is one that may never have evolved into friendship or intimacy-it is based in desire-something that cannot sustain the r/s in the long run. The tricky part of a sexual r/s is the bonding that ocurrs for the couple-the hormones released in the brain are the same hormones released during breastfeeding infants-hence attachment. Women experience this more strongly than men... at least research states this.

My point is- a balanced person figures out their feelings, behavior and actions and takes ownership of them

[ve01603]

I do think they know in one sense they hurt us but I don't think that (at least in my experience) they consciously want to. I wonder, and have talked about this with my uBPDbf, if it could be that they have such low self esteem that they do not feel they deserve to be loved, and so when we still love them in spite of their treatment of us, we fail in their eyes for how could we love them that are unlovable, what does that say about us and then they get angry with us for not living up to their idea of us. So perhaps they sabotage all of their r/s to bring about what they fear, abandonement, because they feel they deserve no better anyway. And when what you fear has already happened you do not need to fear it anymore.

At least in his case he seems to be nicer to people who are very controlling and domineering although with me he has accused me of trying to control him when that is exactly what I am not doing, you know, as they do.

Same.

[ve01603]

I do think they know in one sense they hurt us but I don't think that (at least in my experience) they consciously want to. I wonder, and have talked about this with my uBPDbf, if it could be that they have such low self esteem that they do not feel they deserve to be loved, and so when we still love them in spite of their treatment of us, we fail in their eyes for how could we love them that are unlovable, what does that say about us and then they get angry with us for not living up to their idea of us. So perhaps they sabotage all of their r/s to bring about what they fear, abandonement, because they feel they deserve no better anyway. And when what you fear has already happened you do not need to fear it anymore.

At least in his case he seems to be nicer to people who are very controlling and domineering although with me he has accused me of trying to control him when that is exactly what I am not doing, you know, as they do.

mitti, what you mention here makes a lot of sense to me and i can relate to your thoughts.  my exBPDgf would frequently ask me 'how much i love her' and 'why do i love her' and 'why am i so good to her' and 'why do i stay in this relationship'... .and she asked in such a way that was so unsure of herself as if she didn't deserved to be loved.  at least that's how i observed and interpreted it.  in one instance, when i gave her her christmas gift (which was a dress she really liked), she actually said to me she didn't feel she deserved such a nice gift.  so eventually, of course, as many on this board will understand, the more i loved her the more she seemed to push me away.

Yep.

[ve01603]

IAT, how did you manage to get to the point of being "just friends"? How wonderful... .just can't figure out how to get there?

Posted on: Yesterday at 08:57:56 PM

Po

It wasn't easy to get to that point, it took months of talking and clearing the air from the past in order for us to reach an amicable solution. I had been total NC for a month before he contacted me and told me that he didn't want it that way, he still wanted to keep me as a friend. At first, I adamantly said 'no' to being put into the 'friend-zone'. Neither of us was happy being totally and abruptly out of each others lives. We had a lot of common interests and the same sense of humor. We just enjoyed talking with each other.

He made it clear to me that I didn't own his life, that I had no say in who he sees, where he goes and who he becomes friends with. I accepted that with the same conditions for him. It's been two months with this understanding and it seems to work for both of us. I have accepted the fact we'll never be anything more than friends and I'm okay with that. Now my life isn't tied to his. We see each other or talk on messenger when either of us feels like doing that without any commitment or promises. There's no mention of love and there's nothing more there than an understanding of how it will always be.

Now, if he starts irritating me with his attitude or poor choice of words, I tell him to 'shut up, go away, see you later' and I leave. The next day it's forgotten and he's behaving like a friend again.

This is amazing to me... .My exbf seems to never want to hear from me again... .It was like "snap", no more love, no more friendship, I no longer exist? Aghh... .I will never get this insanity!

Same here.

[ve01603]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…

My exBPDbf would say things like "I don't care" or "it doesn't matter either way" when we spoke of breaking up. I realized much later that he really did care, but not in a romantic way anymore, not the way that I cared. He wanted me as a friend because we had a lot in common. He didn't want me in a romantic way anymore. All of his words and actions proved to me over and over again that he really didn't care about losing me in a romantic way. Once they've separated from you emotionally there's no 'rekindling' that's possible. If we pressure them to renew that romantic relationship they recoil and don't want to be anywhere near us, we become pathetic to them and they start hating us for that. I knew that I didn't want to feel pathetic, I was losing self-respect. Once I came to terms with the 'neutrality' of the newly formed relationship, I became more at ease with the friendship.

They care, they really do, but they don't want YOU to think they care for you in a romantic-love way anymore. You have to force ambivalence upon yourself just as they have and separate emotionally. We can't all do that. Mine still wanted a friendship, and after months of struggling with the relationship changing in this way, I did accept it and had to realize it's just not the same as it was, and will never be that way every again.

I could have written this myself.

[C12P21]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

Yup... .he pursued me like crazy, discussed our future. Next day-I don't love you as you love me, next week or two-we shared laughs, nothing else.

Very difficult to process.

C

[whitedoe]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

Yup... .he pursued me like crazy, discussed our future. Next day-I don't love you as you love me, next week or two-we shared laughs, nothing else.

Very difficult to process.

C

I started seeing a therapist in efforts to help me “clean my head out” and recovery from this ordeal... .I just can’t seem to “shake off” the pain and confusion? Yes, too difficult for me to process, C12P21... .And I desperately want and need to get my life back together!

Yes, my exBPD/NPDbf certainly pursued me aggressively... .And the “sick” part of it was that I had never felt “so loved and adored” in my entire life? Aghhh... .I cannot bare to open any of the hundreds of loving emails, notes, texts that he wrote to me. If only I had known about this illness? Maybe I would have seen the red flags and run like crazy?

The insanity of this “mental illness” is excruciating to me ... .the complete lack of any sensitivity, absolutely no empathy, incredible selfishness beyond anything I’ve ever known in an adult human being and... .the total lack of a “conscience”... .this is unfathomable to me... .it’s inhumane... .

And the fact that I loved him so deeply and would have done anything to help him makes me wonder about my own “sanity”?

[ve01603]

I went from being his "joy and rapture" to "deep ambivalence" He out of nowhere started telling me that he was “deeply ambivalent” and my heart ached…  his discussions became increasingly illogical and “facts” distorted… he began telling me things that I never said or felt – it was utter madness?

He loved me and "lived to be with me" one day and the next, he’d have yet another “dark mood” where he’d “withdraw” from me and/or blurt out the most cruel things?... .I felt “sick inside” all the time never knowing “which” man would surface?

Yup... .he pursued me like crazy, discussed our future. Next day-I don't love you as you love me, next week or two-we shared laughs, nothing else.

Very difficult to process.

C

I started seeing a therapist in efforts to help me “clean my head out” and recovery from this ordeal... .I just can’t seem to “shake off” the pain and confusion? Yes, too difficult for me to process, C12P21... .And I desperately want and need to get my life back together!

Yes, my exBPD/NPDbf certainly pursued me aggressively... .And the “sick” part of it was that I had never felt “so loved and adored” in my entire life? Aghhh... .I cannot bare to open any of the hundreds of loving emails, notes, texts that he wrote to me. If only I had known about this illness? Maybe I would have seen the red flags and run like crazy?

The insanity of this “mental illness” is excruciating to me ... .the complete lack of any sensitivity, absolutely no empathy, incredible selfishness beyond anything I’ve ever known in an adult human being and... .the total lack of a “conscience”... .this is unfathomable to me... .it’s inhumane... .

And the fact that I loved him so deeply and would have done anything to help him makes me wonder about my own “sanity”?

You're not alone.  I did it too.

[C12P21]

it’s inhumane...

You might try reading the book "The Sociopath Next Door"- and the book "Narcissistic Lovers", it might help you to understand what you have experienced.

Yes, my exBPD/NPDbf certainly pursued me aggressively... .And the “sick” part of it was that I had never felt “so loved and adored” in my entire life? Aghhh... .I cannot bare to open any of the hundreds of loving emails, notes, texts that he wrote to me. If only I had known about this illness? Maybe I would have seen the red flags and run like crazy?

The human drive to connect is what we are hard wired to do. Survival as a species depends on this drive. As a little girl how often were you exposed to stories of the prince arriving to rescue the princess, or beauty and the beast. And if you are Native American-look at all of the stories handed down to us by the story tellers in our communities and beliefs in our communities about listening with our heart, head and spirit?

So we find someone or they find us-and our unspoken needs are apparent. They make pathways inside our minds, our hearts, our spirits.And they earn our trust. If there are childhood wounds that need healing, they begin to heal and for the first time in our lives, we feel adored and loved. This is what r/s do-they do heal the child within us. When you know this, you become more mindful of the daily interactions of your loved one, you begin to understand what it is you need and how to ask for this need to be met. This is a part of a healthy r/s. We are not hardwired to figure it out for ourselves, to heal our own pain. Look at this website, we are a connected community trying to help each other heal.

But somewhere inside the disordered mind-they know enough to know how to pretend to return love, they act out the stages of relationships, they reciprocate our feelings, they display tenderness and then (depending on the disorder or emotional disturbance) they stop. They are gone. And they are cruel sometimes.

You are not at fault. BPD's, NPD's and Sociopaths are extremely hard to decipher, even LMHC are often times fooled by them. This was not your fault, you did not deserve this and you are not defective. How could have possibly known about red flags-until you were exposed to and experienced this ordeal.

Sometimes the high they get is in the harm they create for others-they like the power they feel over listening to another cry. And yes, those tender endearments were written in order to suck you in and spin you up... it is all part and part of the plan and thrill-if they are a sociopath.

If they are a narcissist the cruelty is usually not intentional-they have devalued you and they want you gone. If you no longer love them, your hate will do just fine-they want that in order to feel powerful and alive.

If they are a garden variety controlling, angry person-they are PO'd because you are not the elusive, fantasy woman of their dreams. Fantasy girl is always available, charming, sexy, does exactly the right thing at the right time, and fulfills his every whim and desire. He honestly believes at the beginning of the r/s you are the one-and when you are not a card board cut out from his imagination-he is frustrated and with a sense of entitlement-he cuts you down and out.

You are left to whither in your sadness because you have feelings, you are hard wired to connect, because someone seduced you with their false love and because you feel love for this person. You will be sad and you will suffer-but if you can hold on and work through this pain with a T, or by reading, or this forum-you will discover something far more beautiful than your love for this man.

You will find that your value is precious-your body is precious-and your heart is connected to your body. You will be more cautious to share yourself in any way with another person because your heart, mind and spirit are gifts-even your thoughts are words and unspoken dreams that are powerful. You will only want to share your power with someone trustworthy. Someone that has to earn that trust slowly and surely with demonstrated behavior over time.

There is nothing wrong with you. You are just right-don't let anyone tell you different.

C

[mitti]

mitti, what you mention here makes a lot of sense to me and i can relate to your thoughts.  my exBPDgf would frequently ask me 'how much i love her' and 'why do i love her' and 'why am i so good to her' and 'why do i stay in this relationship'... .and she asked in such a way that was so unsure of herself as if she didn't deserved to be loved.  at least that's how i observed and interpreted it.  in one instance, when i gave her her christmas gift (which was a dress she really liked), she actually said to me she didn't feel she deserved such a nice gift.  so eventually, of course, as many on this board will understand, the more i loved her the more she seemed to push me away.

My bf would do similar things. In the beginning he wanted me to explain to him exactly what it felt like to be in love or even intimate things, I mean really explain it with many words. I got the feeling that he needed to be reassured that the feelings I had for him were the same as the ones he had for me.

One time not too long ago, one of the times he broke up with me, I was at his house the day after he had told me we were over and he wanted to know why I needed to talk about it (strangely though he had wanted me to come over). I said because a breakup is a process. You don’t just go from sharing a life, making plans to nothing. People need some sort of closure. So he then got angry and said so I was planning to talk for x amount of days and then dump him. I realised then that time that even though he had said we were over, we were not over in his mind. He was just going through some panic. At the time I had no idea he might be BPD.

[mitti]

i also think it's what causes so many of us, after the breakup, to cyber peek at them. it's totally masochistic. we know better. we've all read that whatever we see is meaningless, but it's also going to upset us. so why do we go? that same masochistic impulse.

I wouldn’t call it masochistic. We do not do it because we enjoy the pain. We do it to avoid the pain of having to let go, right? We may know in our minds there is no other way but forward but at the time it may seem less painful to keep some sort of bond there even if it means more upset. Personally though I do not do that sort of thing for it just brings on panic. For now when my bf and I are NC I avoid everything that reminds me of him like the plague.

[once removed]

well, no, we certainly dont get any enjoyment in the pain.

but it's masochistic in the sense that we KNOW whatever is there will be painful, and yet for whatever reason, our bodies feel an uncontrollable urge to do it anyway.

it goes back to how when we're depressed, the old "garbage truck" analogy, where our minds actually, actively dig up and dump on us the most painful thoughts it can find, and become our own worst enemy.

[ve01603]

it’s inhumane...

You might try reading the book "The Sociopath Next Door"- and the book "Narcissistic Lovers", it might help you to understand what you have experienced.

Yes, my exBPD/NPDbf certainly pursued me aggressively... .And the “sick” part of it was that I had never felt “so loved and adored” in my entire life? Aghhh... .I cannot bare to open any of the hundreds of loving emails, notes, texts that he wrote to me. If only I had known about this illness? Maybe I would have seen the red flags and run like crazy?

The human drive to connect is what we are hard wired to do. Survival as a species depends on this drive. As a little girl how often were you exposed to stories of the prince arriving to rescue the princess, or beauty and the beast. And if you are Native American-look at all of the stories handed down to us by the story tellers in our communities and beliefs in our communities about listening with our heart, head and spirit?

So we find someone or they find us-and our unspoken needs are apparent. They make pathways inside our minds, our hearts, our spirits.And they earn our trust. If there are childhood wounds that need healing, they begin to heal and for the first time in our lives, we feel adored and loved. This is what r/s do-they do heal the child within us. When you know this, you become more mindful of the daily interactions of your loved one, you begin to understand what it is you need and how to ask for this need to be met. This is a part of a healthy r/s. We are not hardwired to figure it out for ourselves, to heal our own pain. Look at this website, we are a connected community trying to help each other heal.

But somewhere inside the disordered mind-they know enough to know how to pretend to return love, they act out the stages of relationships, they reciprocate our feelings, they display tenderness and then (depending on the disorder or emotional disturbance) they stop. They are gone. And they are cruel sometimes.

You are not at fault. BPD's, NPD's and Sociopaths are extremely hard to decipher, even LMHC are often times fooled by them. This was not your fault, you did not deserve this and you are not defective. How could have possibly known about red flags-until you were exposed to and experienced this ordeal.

Sometimes the high they get is in the harm they create for others-they like the power they feel over listening to another cry. And yes, those tender endearments were written in order to suck you in and spin you up... it is all part and part of the plan and thrill-if they are a sociopath.

If they are a narcissist the cruelty is usually not intentional-they have devalued you and they want you gone. If you no longer love them, your hate will do just fine-they want that in order to feel powerful and alive.

If they are a garden variety controlling, angry person-they are PO'd because you are not the elusive, fantasy woman of their dreams. Fantasy girl is always available, charming, sexy, does exactly the right thing at the right time, and fulfills his every whim and desire. He honestly believes at the beginning of the r/s you are the one-and when you are not a card board cut out from his imagination-he is frustrated and with a sense of entitlement-he cuts you down and out.

You are left to whither in your sadness because you have feelings, you are hard wired to connect, because someone seduced you with their false love and because you feel love for this person. You will be sad and you will suffer-but if you can hold on and work through this pain with a T, or by reading, or this forum-you will discover something far more beautiful than your love for this man.

You will find that your value is precious-your body is precious-and your heart is connected to your body. You will be more cautious to share yourself in any way with another person because your heart, mind and spirit are gifts-even your thoughts are words and unspoken dreams that are powerful. You will only want to share your power with someone trustworthy. Someone that has to earn that trust slowly and surely with demonstrated behavior over time.

There is nothing wrong with you. You are just right-don't let anyone tell you different.

C

Beautiful.

[C12P21]

My bf would do similar things. In the beginning he wanted me to explain to him exactly what it felt like to be in love or even intimate things, I mean really explain it with many words. I got the feeling that he needed to be reassured that the feelings I had for him were the same as the ones he had for me.

One time not too long ago, one of the times he broke up with me, I was at his house the day after he had told me we were over and he wanted to know why I needed to talk about it (strangely though he had wanted me to come over). I said because a breakup is a process. You don’t just go from sharing a life, making plans to nothing. People need some sort of closure. So he then got angry and said so I was planning to talk for x amount of days and then dump him. I realised then that time that even though he had said we were over, we were not over in his mind. He was just going through some panic. At the time I had no idea he might be BPD.

Yes, mine did the same. Almost on every interaction he needed reassurances from me. Then it was over and he had another relationship and had moved her in. I didn't know this at the time. What he believed is eventually he would be able to return to me-if and when he wanted. I was the back up plan to keep him from being alone.

I know this now, I didn't then. All I knew is how much emotional pain I was in and that it was wrong to continue on a conversation that was eroding my self esteem and confused me.

What is important now is to understand myself and how I got there and yes the red flags that are a part of the make up of pwBPD or other emotional disturbances.

C

[mitti]

He told me that he's heard all those things said to him from when he was very little, and it doesn't bother him at all to hear them for himself, it doesn't hurt at all. He could never understand why it upset me so much, it puzzled him why I couldn't let it roll off my back like water off a duck.

I found that to be very dysfunctional thinking and that's when I began to get answers online through information about BPD. I knew that he was emotionally rejected by his mother and she was very hard on him all his life. She let him know from a very early age that he most certainly was not wanted. He'd created a self-defensive wall against it in order to survive and rise above it, an emotional shield.

Understanding the basis of his mental dysfunction and BPD didn't help our relationship. He will never admit how messed up his mind was. He did tell me that at 16 he contemplated suicide but that he worked it out alone and decided he wanted to live, to be something good for others, something he never had.

It's such a complex disorder, one would have to be super-human to be able to deal with a BPD. I was with him 3 years and we are now 'just friends', no more than that. I have no hold on him, nor he with me. Neither of us can have more than that together.

My bf was the same in the beginning of our r/s. He would say the most hurtful things, call me the most disgusting names, and he would defend it by saying that such was the vocabulary in his house when little and he couldn’t see there was anything wrong with it. I tried to make him see that it ruins a person’s self-worth. He would never agree then but the blaming and the verbal abuse had almost completely abated some months before he flipped out completely.

His mother seems to have been blowing hot and cold all the time. It was all about her. If he hurt himself then she was still the one who deserved to be pitied for worrying about her son hurting himself. He was told he was not good for anything but physical labour. Nothing wrong with physical labour but he went through his whole childhood believing he was mentally challenged. The mother would have a go at their dad when he came home from work until he caved in and gave the children a beating. Most of the time he tells me he had no idea why he was punished.

He does admit to being messed up, to being the cause of our problems but it doesn’t help much. I still feel so extremely rejected and worthless. Nothing helps…

[mitti]

well, no, we certainly dont get any enjoyment in the pain.

but it's masochistic in the sense that we KNOW whatever is there will be painful, and yet for whatever reason, our bodies feel an uncontrollable urge to do it anyway.

it goes back to how when we're depressed, the old "garbage truck" analogy, where our minds actually, actively dig up and dump on us the most painful thoughts it can find, and become our own worst enemy.

Yes, we are better off doing the opposite but letting go is hard and we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves for having let somebody into our hearts, invested ourselves in them. And when a r/s ends there is pain whichever way you look right... .

[OTH]

I have read this in same line in a different manner. The "phychic retreat" was developed as a child to protect them from the emotional harm of being abused. If you fight back they go into this "phychic retreat" and ignore you and your concerns. (I have been there). Their lives were so caught up in the drama of their childhood that the child never grew emotionally and stayed enmeshed with a parent figure... .they used the retreat to protect themselves from harm but they never individuated and are stuck at a child's emotionall level.  They learned to mirror and please the parent figure. As the child grew... .this mirroring changed to engulfment fears and the child begins acting out as a young adult. Since the child never emotionally matured into an adult all future intimate relationships are based on the disordered model from childhood. They recreate the r/s they had with the dysfunctional parent. The relationship was not healthy and caused them much pain. They go back trying to recreate the experience trying to heal it so they can grow and move on... .but they now associate intimacy with pain and engulfment. As soon as these feelings begin to happen they start acting out in the relationship and blame their partner for all the pain and fear. Since the partner was not able to heal them and is hurting them they feel they are intitled to act out againt you. It is all your fault afterall. They get to get back at you and their past hurt. They want you to feel their pain and make you as miserable as they are. After all you deserve it. If you fight back they go into a shell and ignore your concerns.

Was talking to a friend I have not seen for ages who has retrained as a psychotherapist and talked to him about my experience with my exBPDgf. He told me they are the toughest of patients to get through to and as I was interested lent me a recent psychotherapy book that presents new theories on pathological organisation in borderline patients. The book is called Psychic Retreats, by John Steiner. In essence the argument is that borderlines (amongst some other patients) have learnt to avoid the pain of anxiety by 'retreating' to what he describes as a state of 'psychic retreat.' This is a rigid defense organisation and an idealised haven from the situations they cannot cope with. He notes that patients who have 'retreated' often keep sufficient contact with reality to appear 'normal' whilst evading its most painful aspects. He also notes (and I think this is very true based upon my own experience with the ex) that there are strong sado-masochistic links binding the 'psychic retreat' - to a degree that the patient may exhibit a controlling, bullying tyranny towards those around them, and this can develop a seductive hold on the patient as their 'tyranny' is inwardly idealised. Effectively BPDs become addicted to it, gaining masochistic gratification in the process. My interperatation of this is that they do know they are hurting people around them, and gain masochistic pleasure out of it. ie they hurt others to hurt themselves.  That's my theory, but then again maybe I should just stick to the day job!

[whitedoe]

it’s inhumane...

You might try reading the book "The Sociopath Next Door"- and the book "Narcissistic Lovers", it might help you to understand what you have experienced.

Yes, my exBPD/NPDbf certainly pursued me aggressively... .And the “sick” part of it was that I had never felt “so loved and adored” in my entire life? Aghhh... .I cannot bare to open any of the hundreds of loving emails, notes, texts that he wrote to me. If only I had known about this illness? Maybe I would have seen the red flags and run like crazy?

The human drive to connect is what we are hard wired to do. Survival as a species depends on this drive. As a little girl how often were you exposed to stories of the prince arriving to rescue the princess, or beauty and the beast. And if you are Native American-look at all of the stories handed down to us by the story tellers in our communities and beliefs in our communities about listening with our heart, head and spirit?

So we find someone or they find us-and our unspoken needs are apparent. They make pathways inside our minds, our hearts, our spirits.And they earn our trust. If there are childhood wounds that need healing, they begin to heal and for the first time in our lives, we feel adored and loved. This is what r/s do-they do heal the child within us. When you know this, you become more mindful of the daily interactions of your loved one, you begin to understand what it is you need and how to ask for this need to be met. This is a part of a healthy r/s. We are not hardwired to figure it out for ourselves, to heal our own pain. Look at this website, we are a connected community trying to help each other heal.

But somewhere inside the disordered mind-they know enough to know how to pretend to return love, they act out the stages of relationships, they reciprocate our feelings, they display tenderness and then (depending on the disorder or emotional disturbance) they stop. They are gone. And they are cruel sometimes.

You are not at fault. BPD's, NPD's and Sociopaths are extremely hard to decipher, even LMHC are often times fooled by them. This was not your fault, you did not deserve this and you are not defective. How could have possibly known about red flags-until you were exposed to and experienced this ordeal.

Sometimes the high they get is in the harm they create for others-they like the power they feel over listening to another cry. And yes, those tender endearments were written in order to suck you in and spin you up... it is all part and part of the plan and thrill-if they are a sociopath.

If they are a narcissist the cruelty is usually not intentional-they have devalued you and they want you gone. If you no longer love them, your hate will do just fine-they want that in order to feel powerful and alive.

If they are a garden variety controlling, angry person-they are PO'd because you are not the elusive, fantasy woman of their dreams. Fantasy girl is always available, charming, sexy, does exactly the right thing at the right time, and fulfills his every whim and desire. He honestly believes at the beginning of the r/s you are the one-and when you are not a card board cut out from his imagination-he is frustrated and with a sense of entitlement-he cuts you down and out.

You are left to whither in your sadness because you have feelings, you are hard wired to connect, because someone seduced you with their false love and because you feel love for this person. You will be sad and you will suffer-but if you can hold on and work through this pain with a T, or by reading, or this forum-you will discover something far more beautiful than your love for this man.

You will find that your value is precious-your body is precious-and your heart is connected to your body. You will be more cautious to share yourself in any way with another person because your heart, mind and spirit are gifts-even your thoughts are words and unspoken dreams that are powerful. You will only want to share your power with someone trustworthy. Someone that has to earn that trust slowly and surely with demonstrated behavior over time.

There is nothing wrong with you. You are just right-don't let anyone tell you different.

C

OMG... .This is soo beautiful... .and speaks volumes to me on every level of my being... .  I have cried tears of pain & sadness but also pure joy as I read these words over and over... .you've given me so much to think about... .Thank you ever so much for taking the time to reach out to me/us with your insightful comments... .

WhiteDoe

[2010]

I have read this in same line in a different manner. The "phychic retreat" was developed as a child to protect them from the emotional harm of being abused. If you fight back they go into this "phychic retreat" and ignore you and your concerns. (I have been there). Their lives were so caught up in the drama of their childhood that the child never grew emotionally and stayed enmeshed with a parent figure... .they used the retreat to protect themselves from harm but they never individuated and are stuck at a child's emotionall level.  They learned to mirror and please the parent figure. As the child grew... .this mirroring changed to engulfment fears and the child begins acting out as a young adult. Since the child never emotionally matured into an adult all future intimate relationships are based on the disordered model from childhood. They recreate the r/s they had with the dysfunctional parent. The relationship was not healthy and caused them much pain. They go back trying to recreate the experience trying to heal it so they can grow and move on... .but they now associate intimacy with pain and engulfment. As soon as these feelings begin to happen they start acting out in the relationship and blame their partner for all the pain and fear. Since the partner was not able to heal them and is hurting them they feel they are intitled to act out againt you. It is all your fault afterall. They get to get back at you and their past hurt. They want you to feel their pain and make you as miserable as they are. After all you deserve it. If you fight back they go into a shell and ignore your concerns.

Yes, that's exactly it.

For the Borderline, the psychic retreat happens while being acted upon (termed rewarding objects) and while acting out (termed withdrawing objects.) The psychic retreat is often put in place and maintained *in order to prevent* self actualization AND to be dually punished at the same time. (Shame and humiliation are used to maintain the psychic retreat.)  

This incomprehensible behavior shows up in the sexually active Borderline as submissive, detailed servitude, where the withdrawing, maternal part-time image of the sexual partner is seen as someone who exploits the Borderline and who is deliberately cruel and enjoys the Borderlines helplessness and dependency.

The associated effect of this is the Borderline feeling inadequate and worthless and most especially GUILTY of something worth punishment. The other part time split was the rewarding maternal image who is a sexual partner that can bring on the feelings of good, (associated with the psychic retreat) where intense experiences of both pain and pleasure trigger a sympathetic nervous system response which causes a release of epinephrine as well as a dump of endorphins.  

These natural chemicals, part of the fight or flight response, produce the same effect as a morphine-like drug, increasing the pain tolerance as the psychic retreat becomes more intense. Since the increase of hormones and chemicals produces a sort of trance-like state, a Borderline can start to feel out-of-body, detached from reality, and as the parasympathetic nervous system kicks in, many Borderlines will lose all sensation of pain.

Cutting, self mutilation and tattooing also serve to trigger the pleasure/pain response but the part time self image that results is one of a helpless, clinging child that “needs” to do this. The intrapsychic structure is ashamed and humiliated while the outer personality is battling with being at times, a victim (masochist) and at times, a sadist.

A person with a deficient sense of self (a Borderline) has a pathological ego with defenses that consist of avoidance of individuation, denial of separation, acting out through clinging and helpless behavior and seeking rewarding /withdrawing ego alliances to justify their poor reality perception.

Everything serves the disorder in self serving masochism.  Since Borderlines have a deficient sense of self compared to the Narcissist, the Borderline struggles with also splitting this very "psychic retreat" that they rely on to avoid anxiety.  (This causes more anxiety.)

“The fantasy of the retreat itself is split into two part time parts: a cruel place or an ideal heaven.  Whether idealised or persecutory, it is clung to as preferable to even worse states which the patient is convinced are the only alternatives. “ ~ Steiner

The Borderline splits themselves, their objects and even “splits” the psychic retreat- the one place that supposedly protects them from harm.  The retreat has good *and* bad part time justifications just like the attachment does.

Steiner is a post Kleinien, which means he continues to advance the theory of object relations with his observations.   In object relations theory, people objectify themselves and others, and have immense interpersonal problems when the objectified people “object.” (no pun intended) Most importantly in object relations are the ways that both Borderlines and Narcissists used others as objects in the maintenance of the psychic retreat. (People are used as objects to facilitate each disorder.)

Since Borderlines were not allowed to separate/individuate, they were not allowed or encouraged to have free will. (Free will implies choice, which the Borderline is convinced they do not have.) Having Free will would mean that the Borderline would need to let go of the fantasy (the one where he is cared for and carried through life like a child, chastised and controlled by a parental object and acting out against his expulsion with impulsive, child like “ID” responses to cement the object in place and prevent the object’s withdrawal. (In other words, doing exactly what needs to be done to be self defeating while keeping the object controlled and involved.)

According to Steiner, the failure to self actuate serves the interests of the “perversity and seductiveness of the propaganda” to others.

So a person with a pathologic ego (a Borderline) has a pursuit of pleasure which leads to an extensive fantasy life which expresses the affect of both reward and withdrawing alliances. In other words, pleasure with pain.

[2010]

Just wanted to add this about object relations:

Both Narcissists and Borderlines objectify themselves and others to serve their pathological ego alliances. They do this in a sort of fantasy merge with an internalized primary object (Mother) who sits at the invisible, internal helm of their control booth as a critical, punitive “superego.”  That superego itself is objectifying. The Narcissist must be seen as perfect while the Borderline cannot be seen at all, except as imperfect and flawed and in need of others or railing against that need.

What Steiner discovered, was that paranoia and Schizoid-like behavior (hermitage) were common outcomes to the frustrated objectifications of these cluster B personalities.  For the Narcissist, it was more of a paranoia (fear) that the objectified others no longer thought he was the perfect self to revolve around. This paranoia was wrapped in pathological envy when the “objects” left to revolve around someone else.  

Since Narcissists are lone wolves anyway, their hermit like behavior is not as easily identifiable as a persecution complex as it is with Borderline.  Many people commonly misattribute healthy traits of independence and self sufficiency to a narcissist who is suffering from narcissistic injury and has entered the hermitage of psychic retreat.

“The psychic retreat provides immense relief and it is achieved at the cost of isolation, stagnation and withdrawal from reality.” ~ Steiner

Borderlines however, generally do not fare as well as Narcissists. Having free will would mean that the Borderline would take responsibility for being a “self” even a false self, instead of being attached to others like a remora fish while casting blame on the very people that carry them (as jail wardens) with distorted perceptions of their punitive control.

It's difficult for a Borderline to come through this abandonment depression without either masochistically destroying his chances of success (a self fulfilling prophecy) or punishing himself due to the failures he perceives as shameful, especially about letting down those high expectations from others with whom he has mirrored for attachment.  Those very people are now watching him fail miserably in his efforts to detach.

Those people (objectified objects) hold the very same high expectations for the Borderline that the Borderline had mirrored and objectified by reflecting the projective identification they gave to him.  To cling to this projective identification without a real “self” image- now only serves as a humiliating reminder of their false hoods and their “failure to launch” free and clear from the objectified other.  This causes such anxiety that the Borderline must seek relief.

The self persecution can be a trigger to explosive rage, self mutilation and/or possibly suicide- but it’s mostly kept in check with withdrawing behavior in retreat and the thought of future reward.

Which brings us to back to the “ideas of reference” concerning the self and others.  (THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IN YOUR OWN RECOVERY.)  Most of us (not all) but most of us that got tangled up with Borderline received a fine dose of “acquired situational narcissism” during our idealization and mirroring phase from our Borderline “love object.”

When the Borderline went away, (as required by the disorder) our merge with our idealized self was no longer fueled properly as the perfect fantasy and we suffered a narcissistic injury when the pedestal we were placed onto was kicked out from underneath us.  That perfect fantasy we were in- made us the center of the Universe for awhile- an acquired “situational” narcissism.

When our “mirror” was rendered inoperable, we do whatever we can to make it operate again. This is the stress phase called “bargaining” with the disorder. (Some of you might still be in this phase.)The first time this stress happened to us, we were three years old and learning that we really were not the center of the Universe.  We realized that our Mother had a life of her own, and we were forced to suffer the abandonment depression and emerge self sufficient.  (Some of us may have been wounded during this.)  Having a childhood without a voice makes your core issues long to be heard again. When a Borderline comes along with mirroring and idealizes you, it can feel like cosmic destiny.  

The longing for a reunion fantasy with our lost primary objects was reactivated with the current borderline mirroring, but once again (as you did in childhood) you must suffer through the required detachment and abandonment depression while you resign yourself to being separate and alone and OK with it.  <<We must suffer through the shame and humiliation that this brings to us.>>

Every single one of us “splits” during a blow to our ego and we make the former love object “evil” to protect ourselves from feeling badly. Eventually we overcome this and realize that we had some responsibility to the objectification of another human being and we begin to come aware of ourselves as both acting on the environment and emerging affected by a better understanding of it.

True Borderlines and Narcissists, however, go to great difficulty to avoid this self awareness. Self delusion is one of the many cornerstones of a personality disorder and they will repeat this self delusion with many, many partners until they may give up and become Schizoid Hermits, prisoners of their own doing.

*If* and that’s a big IF, we are to accept change in ourselves and others, we must act on the environment and become affected by our understanding of it. People with personality disorders avoid change. Acceptance of change is the only way to break from pathology.

“An understanding of the role of humiliation may help us to support our patients to recognise and tolerate being observed and to gradually face their objects and themselves more fully." ~ Steiner.  

And that is precisely what is happening as you read this. Acceptance of change.

"Psychic retreat" is Steiner’s way of detailing the difficulties in the psychoanalytic process of helping cluster B personalities see the reasons for their fears without activating the shame and humiliation that comes along as a result of their escape from them. It’s a tremendous struggle for the mental health professional to suggest alternatives to the fantasies of personality disordered people.

For most of us here- retreat (an escape from reality) is not an option- we must feel the abandonment, suffer the depression and move through these awful abandonment feelings, emerging out the other side as bravely as we can; proactive, wiser, self regulating, self sufficient and understanding as people can be about who we are and where we want to go- and accept and welcome change.  That may mean not using people as objects for a quick fix to feel better about ourselves.  No more fantasy diversions.

As Winston Churchill once advised during WWII, “If you're going through hell, keep going…” Stick to the matter at hand, one day at a time. It will get better, I promise.

[ve01603]

I have read this in same line in a different manner. The "phychic retreat" was developed as a child to protect them from the emotional harm of being abused. If you fight back they go into this "phychic retreat" and ignore you and your concerns. (I have been there). Their lives were so caught up in the drama of their childhood that the child never grew emotionally and stayed enmeshed with a parent figure... .they used the retreat to protect themselves from harm but they never individuated and are stuck at a child's emotionall level.  They learned to mirror and please the parent figure. As the child grew... .this mirroring changed to engulfment fears and the child begins acting out as a young adult. Since the child never emotionally matured into an adult all future intimate relationships are based on the disordered model from childhood. They recreate the r/s they had with the dysfunctional parent. The relationship was not healthy and caused them much pain. They go back trying to recreate the experience trying to heal it so they can grow and move on... .but they now associate intimacy with pain and engulfment. As soon as these feelings begin to happen they start acting out in the relationship and blame their partner for all the pain and fear. Since the partner was not able to heal them and is hurting them they feel they are intitled to act out againt you. It is all your fault afterall. They get to get back at you and their past hurt. They want you to feel their pain and make you as miserable as they are. After all you deserve it. If you fight back they go into a shell and ignore your concerns.

Was talking to a friend I have not seen for ages who has retrained as a psychotherapist and talked to him about my experience with my exBPDgf. He told me they are the toughest of patients to get through to and as I was interested lent me a recent psychotherapy book that presents new theories on pathological organisation in borderline patients. The book is called Psychic Retreats, by John Steiner. In essence the argument is that borderlines (amongst some other patients) have learnt to avoid the pain of anxiety by 'retreating' to what he describes as a state of 'psychic retreat.' This is a rigid defense organisation and an idealised haven from the situations they cannot cope with. He notes that patients who have 'retreated' often keep sufficient contact with reality to appear 'normal' whilst evading its most painful aspects. He also notes (and I think this is very true based upon my own experience with the ex) that there are strong sado-masochistic links binding the 'psychic retreat' - to a degree that the patient may exhibit a controlling, bullying tyranny towards those around them, and this can develop a seductive hold on the patient as their 'tyranny' is inwardly idealised. Effectively BPDs become addicted to it, gaining masochistic gratification in the process. My interperatation of this is that they do know they are hurting people around them, and gain masochistic pleasure out of it. ie they hurt others to hurt themselves.  That's my theory, but then again maybe I should just stick to the day job!

This sounds pretty accurate to me.

[RKG]

so eventually, of course, as many on this board will understand, the more i loved her the more she seemed to push me away... .QUOTED from KEM

That is the way it was for me! This is the toughest part of the r/s for me to get over. I loved her so much, but the more I did, the farther away she got... .She had so many triggers! I was on eggshells, and had such anxiety, but continued to love her. I am still trying to figure this aspect of the disorder. After talking to a past hubby, I have found that she has been this way for along time... .Is it common for them to be so driven by money? The xuBPD was very driven to have "status" with degrees, money, and stuff. She didn't have any friends that she couldn't get "something" from. Very odd. She didn't believe in doing the "ladies night out". She always had to be with me... .Didn't like the fact that I was working out of town, etc. I truly loved this woman... .But she doesn't know love. Very sad. She has a new boyfriend now, so why is she still after me?

[C12P21]

When the Borderline went away, (as required by the disorder) our merge with our idealized self was no longer fueled properly as the perfect fantasy and we suffered a narcissistic injury when the pedestal we were placed onto was kicked out from underneath us.  That perfect fantasy we were in- made us the center of the Universe for awhile- an acquired “situational” narcissism

Thank you for this post. One of the recurring comments I would make to him is-please don't put me on a pedestal, its an uncomfortable perch. The reason I would say this is due to my physical appearance. I am a former model and although older the truth is-I am still considered attractive. Often times throughout my life I have been been subjected to this "idealization" for no reason, other than my looks. It was an issue of my childhood with my parents showing pride in their 'pretty girl", men hitting on me, bosses ing over me, all of this undue attention when all I really wanted was to just fit in. I wear no make up, dress simply, and for a long while gained weight to avoid this attention from primarily men. If a man goes on about my looks, there is no second date. He sensed this and often admired me for other attributes, honesty, kindness, loyalty, intelligence etc. It was such a fulfilling sensation. Someone saw that I had a brain and personality.   During the devaluation stage, whew-whole different ball game.Here is my point-on the day we broke up and he ripped me apart... I turned to him and said 'funny how quickly one falls off the pedestal". For along while I suffered TERRIBLY and was worried I was narcissistic and BPD due to how much I missed being the 'chosen one" of his making.

Whew. And I felt terribly guilty.

The other is yes, the abandonment felt as though I were a sobbing child... yearning for a parent, someone to love me. It was a horrible experience.

When our “mirror” was rendered inoperable, we do whatever we can to make it operate again. This is the stress phase called “bargaining” with the disorder. (Some of you might still be in this phase.)The first time this stress happened to us, we were three years old and learning that we really were not the center of the Universe.  We realized that our Mother had a life of her own, and we were forced to suffer the abandonment depression and emerge self sufficient.  (Some of us may have been wounded during this.)  Having a childhood without a voice makes your core issues long to be heard again. When a Borderline comes along with mirroring and idealizes you, it can feel like cosmic destiny.

This is good insight. I posted on another board about my excessive contact of him after the break up. I feel badly about trying anything to get him to seek help, to hear my emotional pain. Finally it occurred to me that my behavior was about me and my sense of loss-that I had no right to tell someone about my perceptions of their illness. He has a right to choice and self determination- a right to go on dating, dumping and cycling through people -until he decides he wants something different. It is his life, not mine. I had to accept this and realized my behavior was controlling and abusive. I cringed at how destructive my behavior was and that it contributed to his illness. The most important task at hand was to figure out and heal "me". Thanks so much for clarifying what has bothered me about my behavior. I secretly lived in terror that I am BPD...  

[once removed]

Someone saw that I had a brain and personality.   

this is obvious to anyone reading, and none of us can see your looks

[C12P21]

this is obvious to anyone reading, and none of us can see your looks smiley

How nice of you to write this, thank you!

C

[ve01603]

Someone saw that I had a brain and personality.  

this is obvious to anyone reading, and none of us can see your looks

Mine got me with this too. I was married to someone that was a "mental loafer"  for many years and when I met my BPD Dr., he saw me as his intellectual equal and that was very flattering to me as well.  I thought that I was finally in my element until the Dr. turned out to be Dr. Jekyll.

[once removed]

i saw my ex as a pretty sufficient intellectual equal. she even managed to correct my spelling a few times. im not sure she quite was though, to be honest. i didn't fully respect her. what i'd prefer now is to find a... .person of equal caliber empathy, values, and loyalty. wisdom would be nice. i've always tried to be the kind of friend i would want, or when somebody seeks my counsel, say the things i would want/need to hear in their shoes. someone who can do/does that. one of the things that troubled me most was when my ex received a reconciliation text from a best friend she'd had a falling out with at the very start of our relationship, and completely ignored it. of course, now i know why.

[C12P21]

Mine got me with this too. I was married to someone that was a "mental loafer"  for many years and when I met my BPD Dr., he saw me as his intellectual equal and that was very flattering to me as well.  I thought that I was finally in my element until the Dr. turned out to be Dr. Jekyll.

, I know you are serious but that was too funny.

Sigh. It is tragic. Tonight I was wondering, was he sociopath, NPD, or just a bwBPD, maybe just a controlling and abusive man.

And then I thought, get out of the rabbit hole... all that matters is your sanity is restored.

C

[Noob]

Tonight I was wondering, was he sociopath, NPD, or just a bwBPD, maybe just a controlling and abusive man.

And then I thought, get out of the rabbit hole... all that matters is your sanity is restored.

C

Truth.

[ve01603]

Mine got me with this too. I was married to someone that was a "mental loafer"  for many years and when I met my BPD Dr., he saw me as his intellectual equal and that was very flattering to me as well.  I thought that I was finally in my element until the Dr. turned out to be Dr. Jekyll.

, I know you are serious but that was too funny.

Sigh. It is tragic. Tonight I was wondering, was he sociopath, NPD, or just a bwBPD, maybe just a controlling and abusive man.

And then I thought, get out of the rabbit hole... all that matters is your sanity is restored.

C

Mine accused a few people of being a Sociopath, which means to me that he probably was one.  Once again projection.

[C12P21]

Mine accused a few people of being a Sociopath, which means to me that he probably was one.  Once again projection.

He accused folks of narcissism, frequently. The neighbors, people that worked at Microsoft, women that dressed nicely, the list of social rejects goes on and on...

And yet, he would help someone that needed help. Built homes for Habitat for Humanity as a volunteer, donated clothing, etc. This is why the disorder is so perplexing.It would be easier if they just wore signs.

[whitedoe]

Hmm… Mine was finally, an “intellectual equal” which was clearly part of the initial attraction. He, an environmental lawyer… as for me, started off with BS in Chemistry and climbed to a very successful position in the Pharma industry… Great post Ve… also been with the “mental loafer” types... Too funny…

Yes, he was all about “caring” activities to include “midnight runs” into the ghettos of NYC with groups in his community to feed the homeless and working at various charity events… He seemed to have such care for the planet… and me, being a huge “tree hugger”… Well, simply stated, I thought this was a match made in heaven… Good grief, how could I have known then… Aghh… Next time, I will know!

I am seeking to understand myself, my “role” in all of this… as well as that of my exBPD/NPDbf. Understanding this mental illness has made a huge difference for me. I am so grateful, humbled by the posts out here on this web site. A few months ago I was literally traumatized, in utter despair with my BPD/NPD r/s breakup… I’m still “hurting deeply” but I now see such an opportunity to grow from this…

C12P21, your insights about yourself, your growing up “beautiful” and now challenging your thinking, your reactions to this BPD r/s… Your ability to look into your own mirror… Great stuff. I will think of your comments when I ruminate about contacting my ex to “save him”, try to get him help… Aghh… You are so right; this is about “me” …

 

2010, I will need another several days to digest your comments.  Soo thankful for your posts… I feel as though I’ve been taking a “crash course” in Psychology… but, I am also an “active client” here…

Yes, being suddenly dumped and withdrawn upon by my exBPDbf was/is horrific pain… unlike anything I’d ever experienced… But, every day I gain more insight into this mental illness and to myself…

Thank you for listening... .

[ve01603]

Mine accused a few people of being a Sociopath, which means to me that he probably was one.  Once again projection.

He accused folks of narcissism, frequently. The neighbors, people that worked at Microsoft, women that dressed nicely, the list of social rejects goes on and on...

And yet, he would help someone that needed help. Built homes for Habitat for Humanity as a volunteer, donated clothing, etc. This is why the disorder is so perplexing.It would be easier if they just wore signs.

I don't think that mine knew what a Narcissist was.  I told him.  He was not worldly at all.  He actually thought that co- dependant meant that you were addicted to two substances such as pot and alcohol. 

[chiha]

Tonight I was wondering, was he sociopath, NPD, or just a bwBPD, maybe just a controlling and abusive man.

And then I thought, get out of the rabbit hole... all that matters is your sanity is restored.

C

Absolutely! I totally relate to what you have said above. That is what we all need to remember... .ourselves AND our sanity. Staying or re-engaging with someone who is unstable is insanity on our part especially when we now know better.

Promises are easy to make and words are cheap but the hard work comes in backing all of that up with honesty and truth. For myself I can say that this never happened. After going back each time with the same hope that my ex meant the promises and pretty words I have finally come to the conclusion it is toxic for me to keep re-engaging. I deserve better.

2010, I appreciate what you posted. The part about the “acquired situational narcissism” hit home big. I often wondered about this and had to admit to myself that this is what I went through. It does help to see it written down and admit my own failings so I can hopefully I can learn from and not repeat this mistake.

[RKG]

Mine accused a few people of being a Sociopath, which means to me that he probably was one.  Once again projection.

He accused folks of narcissism, frequently. The neighbors, people that worked at Microsoft, women that dressed nicely, the list of social rejects goes on and on...

And yet, he would help someone that needed help. Built homes for Habitat for Humanity as a volunteer, donated clothing, etc. This is why the disorder is so perplexing.It would be easier if they just wore signs.

Mine did the same kind of stuff/giving nature, and was an equal, but at the same time, she was "bright" with her ability to find "loopholes" in things where she could find an angle of benefit for her. Is there a reason for this? Is it something to do with the need to "seem appreciated"? Does this giving, fill a "hole" of some kind? This is perplexing. She was a person whom would give a hitchhiker a ride, which totally scared me b/c she was alone when doing this. She would give $ to organizations that were interesting to her. She always had to be recognized for her giving though... .I found this interesting. She always had to be recognized for her educational degrees. Heck, on Facebook, her name begins with ":)r... .". Perhaps all of the above is the "ego" aspect? GREAT comments guys! Good insight into the disorder here.

Thank you!

[sixspeed]

It's difficult for a Borderline to come through this abandonment depression without either masochistically destroying his chances of success (a self fulfilling prophecy) or punishing himself due to the failures he perceives as shameful, especially about letting down those high expectations from others with whom he has mirrored for attachment.  Those very people are now watching him fail miserably in his efforts to detach... .This causes such anxiety that the Borderline must seek relief... .and/or possibly suicide- but it’s mostly kept in check with withdrawing behavior in retreat and the thought of future reward.

That sums up my experience exactly, I can quote my own BPD ex to illustrate:

" In addition to these feelings of loneliness that I have, I feel like I've been a complete disappointment to you since I arrived. From silly things, like leaving my job , which paid so well (and I know you supported me in that because it was abusive - but I still feel guilty about giving it up and you've had to help pay my way since then)... .to my depression and anxiety troubles, which have led to my lack of adventure and listless personality... .to quitting my most recent job... .I have failed here in every conceivable way. I feel not good enough, not smart enough, not worthy of you and those feelings are made even worse by your somewhat distant nature and sarcasm, even when meant to be humorous, which I know is not intended to hurt me, but it still does. "

This is when she started to flirt with suicidal thoughts, threats, and overtures. Then she ran from me back home while baiting me with stories of a bright future to stay attached, and I did, and I'm learning why now.

True Borderlines and Narcissists, however, go to great difficulty to avoid this self awareness. Self delusion is one of the many cornerstones of a personality disorder and they will repeat this self delusion with many, many partners until they may give up and become Schizoid Hermits, prisoners of their own doing.

Sad, my exBPD may end up just like her mother who lives in this hermit fashion with a litany of problems. 50% of the reason I never moved to chase my love for my BPD ex when she wanted me to was her family, they scared the    out of me. I would have been isolated from a loving supportive family on my side to 

[once removed]

that's an interesting post sixspeed. it illustrates the extent to which some of them, if not most of them have insight to themselves and know SOMETHING is wrong.

if one didn't know better, she sounds perfectly rational and reasonable.

[sixspeed]

if one didn't know better, she sounds perfectly rational and reasonable.

There's a lot of subtext there, some blame on others and me interlaced with deep personal shame and shame for no reason. I had the means to support us, there was no pressure. The distance was projection, this is a girl I hugged every day, told her how beautiful she was and would pull off the couch to get her out of the house when she was depressed. The sarcasm, yes, I like some playful banter and competitive challenges (bet I can beat you up the hill on a hike), a borderline can't take any of that, you're cutting triggering right into the shame. They won't tell you at first, but every time you make a little joke like "Honey you killed this steak and it was already dead.", the borderline is suffering a traumatic trigger which will be inventoried and soon the split comes.

She would write as the day is long on all these topics and more, and she could sound so reasonable, so clear, knowing her faults and what had to be done but when it came to acting, to healing, to being face to face; she withdrew, curled up and cried, and could not put any of this into action, so when I pressed for action she ran, blamed first external things, then triangulated with an exbf, then began to blame me and forgot all of these things she wrote herself.

[sixspeed]

if one didn't know better, she sounds perfectly rational and reasonable.

There's a lot of subtext there, some blame on others and me interlaced with deep personal shame and shame for no reason. I had the means to support us, there was no pressure, in fact I encouraged her to go to school instead, here's the thing though, they don't know what they want! The distance was projection, this is a girl I hugged every day, told her how beautiful she was and would pull off the couch to get her out of the house when she was depressed. The sarcasm, yes, I like some playful banter and competitive challenges (bet I can beat you up the hill on a hike), a borderline can't take any of that, you're cutting triggering right into the shame. They won't tell you at first, but every time you make a little joke like "Honey you killed this steak and it was already dead.", the borderline is suffering a traumatic trigger which will be inventoried and soon the split comes.

She would write as the day is long on all these topics and more, and she could sound so reasonable, so clear, knowing her faults and what had to be done but when it came to acting, to healing, to being face to face; she withdrew, curled up and cried, and could not put any of this into action, so when I pressed for action she ran, blamed first external things, then triangulated with an exbf, then began to blame me and forgot all of these things she wrote herself.

[Undertowed]

That is tragic.

[once removed]

oh sure. there's nothing you could share from a borderline that i wouldn't automatically know is full of holes of all sorts. yours sounds a lot like mine. some of them love to dish out jokes (teasing), and some of them can even take them, but you'll notice certain things that they're particularly sensitive about. i had two of them that were very sensitive if i teased them about music. this is probably because they knew me (im a musician, and music is obviously my greatest obsession) and felt a bit inferior as well as always trying to impress me. if they really knew me, they'd have known that wasn't necessary. mine had a lot of insight about herself as well. she was diagnosed bipolar. she'd use terms like "rapid cycling" and "manic episodes". saw a psychiatrist. knew she had issues, knew she had parental issues. there's even a particular conversation that we had that for some reason is a bit foggy in my mind, but she was telling me about someone she thought was either NPD or BPD. it seems to me that she said, in words i can't recall, something along the lines of it had been suggested that she was BPD, or that she had traits of BPD, or that she was "kind of BPD", something. i really can't recall. wish i could. she was always talking though about how much "better" she'd gotten, atleast when i'd break up with her, or complain about the state of the relationship.

anyway, i definitely understand the subtext. but if i were an outsider, i would probably read those words and say "what a reasonable, rational, well thought out person, who is articulate, and can clearly express herself and how she's feeling, and she doesn't sound unfair at all." it would probably be my first impression. she DOES sound that way. that's what's confounding. i know it's the opposite of every adjective i used.