People pleasing/control/BPD

[Clearmind]

As many of you know who have read my posts he is certainly not innocent – I am just explaining one particular trait (people pleasing) of his here.

The BPDexBF was a quiet/waif. Rarely raged however his words were so stern they scared the crap out of me. He was an incessant people pleaser - to an extreme.

He helped around the house in EVERY aspect – cleaning, cooking, putting the washing on the line, extremely gracious host etc etc. Short of washing my own hair, he ‘helped’ with everything - day in and day out. Anyone would think that this is an ideal partner – right?

He often asked me – “If there is something I am not doing, that you want me to do, please just tell me”. Strangely I would but he would act like a scared little abused boy. In healthy development we have a huge sense of pleasure in pleasing others and receiving. But I feel like his people pleasing were for his ‘gain’ and really had nothing to do with me.

So all this people pleasing

– is he just wearing a mask of niceness to eventually steal energy from the world (and me) to feel better?

- to feel useful so I won’t abandon him?

- clobber me with it later “I always helped you out” etc

The RS was 14 months and I dont think he could act any longer - His people pleasing ways went down the loo towards the end of the RS.

I would love any insight into this.

[2010]

His people pleasing ways went down the loo towards the end of the RS.

By then you had become a series of distorted perceptions that involved slavery. Not your fault.

He often asked me – “If there is something I am not doing, that you want me to do, please just tell me”. Strangely I would but he would act like a scared little abused boy.

Borderline perceptions are arrested at the "determination of free will" stage in childhood. Autonomy and independence were never achieved as a child and therefore the lack of development causes allot of anxiety to the Borderline adult.  This is why "waif" Borderlines cling to and then eventually hate those that support them.

But I feel like his people pleasing were for his ‘gain’ and really had nothing to do with me.

The compulsion for a waif is to serve another person and attach to them for survival. When this servitude is praised, the Borderline feels somewhat conflicted, as the feel good quality of pleasing the other person soon turns into a distorted perception of captivity and bondage. The partner then becomes a lightning rod for the intra-psychic scapegoating that lives within their mind.  Scapegoating and blame are projected at the partner.  Again, this isn't your fault.

Borderline waifs will attach to those they perceive to be dominant, (most of the time that is a conscientious and caring partner who rescues them.)  The Borderline then cries foul when their submissiveness becomes so extreme (at the hand of their own doing) and the equality in the relationship is so askew that it gives the partner an appearance of a taskmaster and the Borderline a reasonable out based on their inner persecutorial ideas of reference.

[Clearmind]

2010 you described that awesomely. Light bulb moment. The attachment is self serving. The people pleasing to praise to the feeling of captivity cycle was endless which is the reason why I became so exhausted. I would always see the positive side to everything. So if he had a down moment because he thought he had failed at something, I tried to get him to see the positiveness in it - I would often say "you only fail if you don't give it a try, and you really tried". He hated me for that because I was not sympathizing or excepting his projection - I was in fact deflecting it back at him - big no no for someone with BPD.

So they feel trapped? Self fulfilling prophecy? Felt like he needed a constant source of praise - any downtime on my part would then send him into despair. His lifeblood was cut.

I would classify myself as the dominant one in the rs. I was together, financially secure, great family and have gorgeous friends. He tried to undermine it all to bring me down a few runs on the ladder - stoop to his level. I am assuming he hoped this would result in an increased reliance of him for survival, feed him praise, and making sure I don't take my eye off the ball.

Interestingly the one thing he blamed me for in the end was that I was too successful and that he felt beneath me. I think he knew his projecting/dissonance was wearing thin. I don't have great personal boundaries but I am starting think they are not as bad as I think - I did bail.

I think he does hate me. This is a hard pill to swallow given what I gave. Again not my fault... .thanks heaps 2010. I have been raking my brain for 3 months trying to comprehend that.

[octopus]

2010 - sorry to derail - but what are your words of wisdom about the 'witch' BPD?

[Sofie]

His people pleasing ways went down the loo towards the end of the RS.

But I feel like his people pleasing were for his ‘gain’ and really had nothing to do with me.

The compulsion for a waif is to serve another person and attach to them for survival. When this servitude is praised, the Borderline feels somewhat conflicted, as the feel good quality of pleasing the other person soon turns into a distorted perception of captivity and bondage. The partner then becomes a lightning rod for the intra-psychic scapegoating that lives within their mind.  Scapegoating and blame are projected at the partner.  Again, this isn't your fault.

Borderline waifs will attach to those they perceive to be dominant, (most of the time that is a conscientious and caring partner who rescues them.)  The Borderline then cries foul when their submissiveness becomes so extreme (at the hand of their own doing) and the equality in the relationship is so askew that it gives the partner an appearance of a taskmaster and the Borderline a reasonable out based on their inner persecutorial ideas of reference.

Very well phrased. My relationship with my ex - a non-raging, non-verbally abusive, but extremely passive aggressive waif - was all about this.

In the beginning of our relationship, she was, as you describe, Clearmind, very keen on pleasing me, helping me out with whatever I needed - or, more often, what she imagined I needed.

While I initially thought this to be a genuine expression of care and sympathy, I quickly discovered it was an attempt to enter into a bargain situation with me, which - in her mind - basically revolved around, "I do X and X and X for you, so therefore you are to love me unconditionally, stay with me forever and take care of me in whichever way I want without question."

Of course, a "normal" relationship is also about giving and taking, but this was - I felt - much more calculated and without real empathy - a matter of "survival attachment" exactly. It gets me thinking about the Stockholm syndrome, actually, and how that can tie into BPD, especially in the case of BPDers who have been abused.

[Willy]

My relationship with my ex - a non-raging, non-verbally abusive, but extremely passive aggressive waif - was all about this.

Same here. She pretended to be a people pleaser. The first two times I visited her home she made me sandwitches/diner, after that one time coffee, afterwards she always asked me to bring something when I visited her.

She could be very submissive, like hanging her head low and talk softly with puppy eyes. Her anger she took out in a very passive aggresive way with always plausible denial.

Later she changed from a waif to a siren. She must have found out the waif was not working anymore.

[Sofie]

Same here. She pretended to be a people pleaser. The first two times I visited her home she made me sandwitches/diner, after that one time coffee, afterwards she always asked me to bring something when I visited her.

Ha! I never thought about this, but it's SO true! When my ex was "courting" me, she would have bought me, for instance, any drink I'd casually mentioned liking, whenever I came to visit and cook great meals for me carefully avoiding any food product she knew I was allergic to.

Six months later I had to get myself a glass of water from the tap, when I was visiting her, if I wanted something to drink and she could not care less if I was allergic to any of the food she half-heartedly made.

[used_up]

My relationship with my ex - a non-raging, non-verbally abusive, but extremely passive aggressive waif - was all about this.

Same here. She pretended to be a people pleaser. The first two times I visited her home she made me sandwitches/diner, after that one time coffee, afterwards she always asked me to bring something when I visited her.

She could be very submissive, like hanging her head low and talk softly with puppy eyes. Her anger she took out in a very passive aggresive way with always plausible denial.

Later she changed from a waif to a siren. She must have found out the waif was not working anymore.

An almost identical experience here. Very submissive when she wanted something but would throw a tantrum when it didn't work and if that failed, an aggressive, belittling, verbal assault.

During the clingy phase, she would cook great meals, make sure I was OK and generally try to please me in all areas. I was doing the same for her, then as soon as I mentioned those three little words, about 3 months into the relationship, BAM! Switc, all bets were off. She had this sense of entitlement to everything, for me to do everything for her, solve her problems, look after her, pander to her needs etc. etc. with every psychological trick in the book being used to try to make me do what she wanted and follow her script.

Fast forward another month and she rarely bothered to do anything (I was the drinks waiter if we were at hers or mine) and if she cooked, it was the cheapest food she could find that took the least effort to make and was generally made badly. We ended up getting take-out, a lot, during the last 2-3 months of the relationship.

I was prepared to give more than I received due to family and work stress that she said she was under at the time (no proof) but everything became very conditional and very one-way, to the point she even said that if I did what she needed, she'd then do something for me. Err, no, that's not how an adult relationship should work and it certainly shouldn't be me giving 8/10 times and only getting a token crumb to keep me interested when she thought I might leave. The pleasing person was just an act and the glimpses I saw from time-to-time was purely a way to attempt to control a situation.

Very much a people pleaser outside of the relationship (again, not a lot of proof) but I always viewed that as a way for her to be the person she wants to be, that she can't be, within a relationship, very adult, very capable and the centre of attention by pleasing others and/or helping them in some way. She has a repertoire of lies and omissions to maintain that helpful, people pleaser façade with so many people but it's easy to act for acquaintances. Not a happy life for her.

I think back and realise that I just fought her need to control everything and fought her trying to get me to give and not receive, for about 7 months in a row. Not good times.

[Sofie]

An almost identical experience here. Very submissive when she wanted something but would throw a tantrum when it didn't work and if that failed, an aggressive, belittling, verbal assault.

I've always wondered... .how much of this waif-type behaviour is conscious?

I may be kidding myself, but to this day I believe that my ex entered into a relationship with me believing that she loved me and that we were meant to be. I don't think she thought, "Ha, I'll snare Sofie into a relationship with being all sweet and perfect, and THEN, when I've got her, I'll show her my true clingy and needy face!"

I always felt that my ex's behaviour was unconscious in the sense that it stemmed from her having an immature and unrealistic need to and belief in that she could and should be "re-parented" by me, and that this was what she genuinely equated with receiving love. I think that she wanted me and expected me to be the unconditionally loving mommy she never had, and when I failed to be that - as every person would - she honestly felt disappointed with me. Her problem, I think, was that she expected a type of love no one will ever receive after infancy. She wanted to be a baby with no need to reciprocate anything due to "mother" loving her regardless solely because she exists.

[Willy]

I've always wondered... .how much of this waif-type behaviour is conscious?

I donot think it is that conscious. Its a learnt attitude since childhood. Its more of a survival instinct IMO.

I always felt that my ex's behaviour was unconscious in the sense that it stemmed from her having an immature and unrealistic need to and belief in that she could and should be "re-parented" by me, and that this was what she genuinely equated with receiving love.

Absolutely.

I think that she wanted me and expected me to be the unconditionally loving mommy she never had, and when I failed to be that - as every person would - she honestly felt disappointed with me.

I noticed a great deal of (passive aggresive) resistance when I asked something of her. Even with the simpliest things. When I started to ask for emotional support things went worse. This is not what parents do. A parent should love the child unconditionally and shouldn’t ask for things in return. I see now what a great disappointment it must have been for her that I asked for emotional support at times.

[Sofie]

I noticed a great deal of (passive aggresive) resistance when I asked something of her. Even with the simpliest things. When I started to ask for emotional support things went worse. This is not what parents do. A parent should love the child unconditionally and shouldn’t ask for things in return. I see now what a great disappointment it must have been for her that I asked for emotional support at times.

Exactly. I often think that this is where so much of our frustration with our BPDers stem from: We think they are adults and therefore expect adult behaviour, but in reality they have only grown up physically.

[Willy]

Exactly. I often think that this is where so much of our frustration with our BPDers stem from: We think they are adults and therefore expect adult behaviour, but in reality they have only grown up physically.

Not only physically, but also intellectually in many cases.

[Sofie]

Exactly. I often think that this is where so much of our frustration with our BPDers stem from: We think they are adults and therefore expect adult behaviour, but in reality they have only grown up physically.

Not only physically, but also intellectually in many cases.

Indeed, indeed. My ex is extremely intelligent, which - when you think about it - only makes it sadder that she is emotionally caught in childhood.

[used_up]

It's a control thing. My experience was if the child isn't seen as wonderful in the eyes of the adult (me) because the child can't satisfy the adult's needs (the adult needs and desires an adult-adult relationship) then the child sees themselves as a failure and tries to get the adult 'back on script' by attempting to control them. If this fails, because they can't truly give the adult what they need, then they try every (psychological) trick in the book (learned behaviour, the place where they are 'stuck', emotionally) and you either fight it, setting boundaries or telling them off, or cave in to the child's demands and stay on script.

The trouble I had was that although we could play as child-child, which we both enjoyed, whenever it came to adult-adult and I actually needed the same support, love and care that I was giving her, she couldn't handle the intimacy nor that next stage of a 'normal' relationship where you really connect with someone and really find out if you love each other and can care for each other. In essence, her fantasy gave way to reality and she couldn't cope with it.

I was shown no adult care and love when it would have been obvious to an adult that the odd word here or there was needed i.e. true empathy at play. Anything she did say lacked any emotion, they were just the words you say at this point. On the flip-side, I was meant to intuit her moods and needs, like a mother (back to adult-child) again and she'd either play victim or aggressor if I failed to read her mind, again, trying to get me back on script. When I repeatedly showed her how much I cared, she'd conveniently forget it, so she could instigate a fight later on 

People pleasing on one level, as a child tries to please their parent is one thing, actually being able to commit to an adult relationship seems to be what my exUBPDgf was incapable of doing, it just isn't 'there' emotionally, despite her being 'there' in other ways. She isn't massively intelligent, just very driven and determined, which counts for a lot. This drive coupled with a child/teenage like cunning a guile (and the odd 100 or so lies), and additionally, a lack of true empathy and care, has gotten her this far in life but she isn't happy and she just gets to exactly the same point in every relationship and can't get any further when the emotional passion of the clingy stage goes and she had to enter the next phase.

That she will likely never experience anything beyond love = need is the sad part but her BPD in no way justifies her cruelty and throw-away attitude to people, friends or otherwise. She was quite capable of 'behaving' when she felt she had something to gain from it, possibly much in the same way she would be the people pleaser, as the gain was probably that she felt useful, needed and important, a temporary reprieve from the turmoil of beating herself up every day and not being 'good enough', at a guess.

Only a will to change and a damn good therapist will give her the chance of experiencing a better life. How easy is that for us to say, how hard, clearly, for most BPD people to do, even if they do have the full support of a SO.

[Sofie]

I was shown no adult care and love when it would have been obvious to an adult that the odd word here or there was needed i.e. true empathy at play. Anything she did say lacked any emotion, they were just the words you say at this point.

I know what you mean. I remember often having the feeling that my ex was a human tape recorder in that she so often just echoed my words when I signalled that I needed "adult" care and empathy. If, for instance, I said, "If feel sad that my mother and I have such a bad relationship", she'd say "I can understand that you feel sad because your mother and you have such a bad relationship." If I said, "I am worried about the meeting with X tomorrow, because I don't really feel prepared", she'd say, "I can understand that you're worried about the meeting with X tomorrow, because you feel that you're not really prepared."

Even in the midst of my FOG, it struck me as eerie - her responses so mechanical, no real response of her own, just a slight rephrasing of whatever I'd said. I think she wanted - genuinely - to give me the care that I needed at those times, but that she was at a loss as to how to do this due to lacking the empathy needed to express genuine care.

[Ace]

For me, my wife is a people pleaser in the beginning, but that soon ends.  At some point she feels her good deeds are not being recipricated (even if they are) or that the person doesn't deserve to be treated nice.  The good deeds for her becomes the status symbol of her martyrdom.  "I do everything around here."    The fact is she would complain about my lack of doing things that I would do more than fair.  Then she would feel guilty about the amount of work I was doing and her lack of ability to complain about it, so she would criticise the WAY I did things and then do them herself. 

The idealization phase was huge for people pleasing in my wife.  With newly met people she will be extra nice and do way more than she should, overextending herself.  But over time she will complain about how much she has done for them.    Victim. 

I think the control goes without saying.  What I find ironic is the fact that my wife will label me as controlling, yet she controls everything.  From how the kids are raised to how the laundry is done to what we use for cleaning products, to what we did as a couple.  Of course she was never interested in doing things I was interested in.  The fact is even if she did, she would complain about it. 

But in the beginning... .she would be very interested in what I was interested in.   

[Clearmind]

Taking the liberty of bumping this up ~ for two reasons

- 2010's insight into people pleasing and Borderlines was a light bulb moment for me ~ I turned a corner reading it ~ hopefully you will too; and

- there are a few newbies on the leaving/detaching board that had a waif (as mine was) and little is known about their behaviour style.

[redberry]

Thanks, clear.  I just reread this post. There's a lot of wisdom.  And welcome to the newbies out there who have been dealing with a waif.  I have, too, and I feel your pain!  Here's to a new beginning and a path to healing.   

[shaakey]

Mine seemed to do a number of "services" in the place of intimacy. For instance when I was sick she would make cups of tea and vitamins etc., but would essentially abandon me in every other regard. If I pressed her as to why she all of a sudden would not keep me company, she would find some way to start a fight and leave. After the first 6 months sex was also a service where she was either porn star but vacant or just laying there.

Everything was on the menu except intimacy.

[justMehere]

Ex uBPD bf was an absolute dream in this regard. He spent so much time and energy doing things for me and my kids, building, fixing, running errands, always eager to help or do something for us.

he was being genuine in his way. He loved to do things for me. BUT the underlying reason was to please me, and don't we all try to please someone we are in a r/s with, but it was over the top. It really did make me feel loved and secure, which made him work even harder because when I was happy and felt loved, he felt secure.

he told me he wanted to "take care of" me. Well, he did to the point that I became dependent on the security that brought.

[krax]

Taking the liberty of bumping this up ~ for two reasons

- 2010's insight into people pleasing and Borderlines was a light bulb moment for me ~ I turned a corner reading it ~ hopefully you will too; and

- there are a few newbies on the leaving/detaching board that had a waif (as mine was) and little is known about their behaviour style.

Seriously... .Thank you soo much for bumping this, your situation was almost identical to mine, mine was also the waif-type, a people-pleaser. She felt so bad when she suspected that people thought badly of her. She usually almost started to cry and was depressed if she thought someone didn´t like her, to the point where I always had to comfort her somehow. But never got as much as a thanks for being there when she needed me. Oh well.

And thanks alot to 2010 aswell, really good explanation.

the Borderline feels somewhat conflicted, as the feel good quality of pleasing the other person soon turns into a distorted perception of captivity and bondage.

Especially this part.

[newworld]

  he would act like a scared little abused boy.

But I feel like his people pleasing were for his ‘gain’ and really had nothing to do with me.

I think you said it here.

My recent relationship was with a man who said "all the right things", meaning he was charming and polite and would engage with people in ways he new (he said so) made things worse in the end because they were dishonest.

He would for example not want to be with me and ask me to walk to the burger joint because he would "feel rude" not asking me. meanwhile he would treat me like garbage by being passive aggressive if I did say 'yes" to the invitation!

I told him to stop asking me to be around him at all if he did not want it. I didn't want to be around someone who was not in the mood for my company and I didn't think it rude for him to want space.

he didn't stop doing it.

He carried the relationship on for two months after that, alternately ignoring me and then coming around to act in passive aggressive ways. He said he felt "guilty" for "not giving me what I want"  ? ? ? (he never asked me what I wanted, despite my telling him clearly that it was for him to go take his space) he was afraid to be yelled at or accused (because 'other women he dated" used to accuse him and get angry with him and "say things weren't a problem, but then they were"... .

... .what a mess of a man... .

he was a pleaser to keep the peace. Unfortunately, this was a very foolish thing to do and wound up being very hurtful.

[ViciousCycle]

His people pleasing ways went down the loo towards the end of the RS.

By then you had become a series of distorted perceptions that involved slavery. Not your fault.

He often asked me – “If there is something I am not doing, that you want me to do, please just tell me”. Strangely I would but he would act like a scared little abused boy.

Borderline perceptions are arrested at the "determination of free will" stage in childhood. Autonomy and independence were never achieved as a child and therefore the lack of development causes allot of anxiety to the Borderline adult.  This is why "waif" Borderlines cling to and then eventually hate those that support them.

But I feel like his people pleasing were for his ‘gain’ and really had nothing to do with me.

The compulsion for a waif is to serve another person and attach to them for survival. When this servitude is praised, the Borderline feels somewhat conflicted, as the feel good quality of pleasing the other person soon turns into a distorted perception of captivity and bondage. The partner then becomes a lightning rod for the intra-psychic scapegoating that lives within their mind.  Scapegoating and blame are projected at the partner.  Again, this isn't your fault.

Borderline waifs will attach to those they perceive to be dominant, (most of the time that is a conscientious and caring partner who rescues them.)  The Borderline then cries foul when their submissiveness becomes so extreme (at the hand of their own doing) and the equality in the relationship is so askew that it gives the partner an appearance of a taskmaster and the Borderline a reasonable out based on their inner persecutorial ideas of reference.

You just explained my relationship with my Waif in a nutshell.

[MaybeSo]

Doesnt this people pleasing dynamic sound a lot like classic codependent behavior?

[krax]

Doesnt this people pleasing dynamic sound a lot like classic codependent behavior?

I don´t think it have to be like this necessarily, sure alot of the BPD types probably doesn´t care at all about their surroundings. My exBPDgf was the typical wife-type, and what I can recall of reading here alot of other people who´ve been involved with waif´s have been in a similair position, they don´t really act like they care about what other people think of them and they sure as hell can talk down on other people when noone´s around to blame them. But when they´re in a vulnurable position they seem to (atleast mine) really care of how they are seen by the rest of the world. I guess it´s the lack of self-confidence that come in to play here.

I on the other hand, are codependent, I´ve truely realized this the past month and im going to do my best to deal with it. But I´ve never cared about what people I don´t care about think of me, more like the opposite. I sometimes get a confidence boost of hearing that some people don´t like me. It just means that Im not bland guy that wants people to like me just for the sake of it, but that I have a personality, which im proud of. But then again, if I would to discover that my friends or other people I care about don´t like me for me I would probably be sad... .But who wouldn´t?

[newworld]

Doesnt this people pleasing dynamic sound a lot like classic codependent behavior?

That's exactly what it is... .we are fooling ourselves into believing there is an "us" and 'them"... .it's a spectrum.

[gettingoverit]

What I find ironic is the fact that my wife will label me as controlling, yet she controls everything.  From how the kids are raised to how the laundry is done to what we use for cleaning products, to what we did as a couple.

I find this comment very interesting, because this too was how my ex waif was as well. She accused me of being controlling, but controlled everything in the house. How the dishes were done, how the laundry was done, how the house was cleaned, the cleaning products we used, where all the house hold goods were stored etc. I really don't care that much about that stuff, so I let her do whatever made her happy. She didn't mind going out and doing things I wanted to do as a couple, but even if she did not want to, she would never tell me. She would never say what she did or didn't want... .I had to read her mind. Only after some serious prying did she finally tell me what she wanted.

At the beginning of our relationship my ex went above and beyond the call of duty. She could anticipate my needs and meet them with accuracy. The stuff she did for me at the beginning was sometimes too much... .it made me uncomfortable because I felt bad that she would go out of her way to do something for me. And to be honest, there was no way I could ever reciprocate some of the things she did for me... .I mean this girl was a mind reader! I think a lot of her behaviours were about control. She had to control her environment, and if she couldn't there was hell to pay. For the most part I let her control the house, but when it came to needing something emotional from her, she just could not give it. A wise friend of mine once told me "She can't give you what she doesn't have to give". I think that sums up my ex in a nutshell.

[gettingoverit]

 The good deeds for her becomes the status symbol of her martyrdom.  "I do everything around here."    The fact is she would complain about my lack of doing things that I would do more than fair.  Then she would feel guilty about the amount of work I was doing and her lack of ability to complain about it, so she would criticise the WAY I did things and then do them herself.

OMG! This is exactly what happened in our household. Everything had to be done a certain way, and if it was not done to her satisfaction, she would b*tch and moan about it and do it herself. I don't know how many times I would try to tell her their where many ways of doing the same thing, her response was always... "if you are going to do a job, you should do it right". Right of course meaning her way or no way. It just got to the point where I got sick and tired of doing things around the house just so that she could come after me and do it again. That really can take the wind out of your sails. Her subtle way of saying "it's not good enough for me". So I stopped doing things in the house, and only did the things outside of the house. I remember once asking her mother if she had always been like this, and I gave her an example of the fact that my ex would rather wash the dishes by hand at 11pm at night exhausted than just put them in the dishwasher because she feels the dishes don't come out as clean as she likes them (control). Her mother then asked me why I did not help and do the dishes, when I told her that when I did them it was never good enough for her and she would complain and do them again anyway her mom said "Then let her do them, if she wants to be that ridiculous and stay up until 11:30pm doing the dishes when there are others that are willing to help, or there is a dishwasher right beside her, then that's her prerogative." Truer words were never spoken.

[Clearmind]

Doesnt this people pleasing dynamic sound a lot like classic codependent behavior?

MaybeSo ~ I agree to an extent. I also people please and I am not totally 100% co-dependent. When I people please its for a different reason ~ I don't expect anything in return and I don't use it to control and I don't pull the passive aggressive stance to shift the power back.

The difference being with a Borderline, as 2010 alluded to ~ people pleasing is a double edged sword ~ they please, the power shifts to us and Borderlines demonise, devalue or push us away to shift the power back to them.

People pleasing aims to help them attach to us ~ its one of their many pulls and its self serving rather than them being 'loving'.

[trellabor]

Interesting. My exBPDgf would always mention how she wanted to be 'taken care of' but it was strange that it was never really that 'specific' in the meaning. When she was sick, I took care of her - made sure she was comfy, had the TV on whatever she wanted to watch, got whatever she wanted to eat/drink, took her temperature etc. When it was I who was sick, or needed emotional support it was as though I was asking for her right arm. Even when she passed out in the shower after we made love and came to very pale and unable to make a coherent sentence for a few minutes, she insisted I go to her doctor with her which I did and explain what happened. Seems she just hadn't eaten very well or drank any water that day(she had this habit of drinking a HUGE 1 liter bottle of water a day and carted it around with her. There were these bottles all over the house). However that wasn't a 'good enough' explanation for her as something had to be 'wrong with her'. This continued to develop into a story about how she had 'abnormal cells' inside her and there was always an appointment to get it checked out which never seemed to materialize. She used this excuse again when I left and quickly abandoned it with hate words and accusations when it didn't convince me to stay.

[m772001]

They seek to please others because they hate themselves, it gives them a way to say "look at me I'm valuable", mine would do anything for anyone, girl scouts, PTO, Cheer Coach, etc... .it's a front to hide the real them,  to the people who get close to them it always comes to an end.

[Beach_Babe]

it's a front to hide the real them,  to the people who get close to them it always comes to an end.

Indeedy it does.

[2010]

Doesnt this people pleasing dynamic sound a lot like classic codependent behavior?

EXCELLENT question!

Borderline is cloaked in dependency behaviors, but Borderline waifdom is shame based because of failure to “be” and the Dependent personality is guilt based because of what they “do.”

According to James F. Masterson, parental scapegoating adds on to the Borderline’s failure to detach and learn the necessary *adaptive skills* to free themselves from “me-but not me” bondage. Their frustration at not being able to free themselves turns inwardly directed and results in “generally some form of sado-masochistic sexual adaptation, which reflects the earlier level of aggression and conflict.”  (Pg. 135 The Narcissistic and Borderline Disorders.)

If you’ve ever wondered why sex is so incredible with a Borderline waif- it’s because they use it to serve you as master/mistress while fulfilling their bondage compulsion. Do they love? Yes. But it is not a love equated with freedom to live separately in a concept of self identity that does not involve slavery. Sex has been taught to be a choreographed pattern of valuation in persecutorial response to their own part time objectification (the nullification of their wholly emerging self.)

The waif’s disorder is one of compulsive servitude, mirroring, and clinging behaviors to ensure that they have value and then hating that part time object when rules are instituted that resemble anything that tests reality that may prevent them from the fantasy of objectified clinging.

To a Borderline waif: “Love is Bondage” and Sex is a form of pain-letting that reaches mystical proportions because of the anxiety that they feel they DESERVE.  They need to FEEL persecution in pain letting. Dependents do not have this. The slavery and punishment aspect is a part of the Borderline waif psyche.

The psyche does not allow for impulse control or delayed gratification- because these would get in the way of re-living the affliction which is a compulsive repetition to feel. Getting beyond the feeling would require an idea beyond BONDAGE. Pain letting arises as a masochistic coping mechanism for the anxiety of being a "virtual self"  (the self as envisioned in the mind of the parental object, i.e, slavemaster or slavemistress)  Thoughts of slavery and bondage keep them safe by re-routing their anxiety about the free world through the distorted perceptions of being held captive and therefore, serves the disorder as a belief that they are powerless to expand outside of the relationship bond.

Any deviation from that voice of the punitive, hypercritical parent in their head (any challenge of it) calls for what is known as a “rapproachment crisis” which stops them dead in their tracks from becoming whole- and being separate.  This separation fear is the basis for clinging and acting out behaviors.  It is frightening and scary to a Borderline to think of surviving without others.  This abject fear bullies them intrapsychically back into a learned helplessness in order to escape the possibility of “becoming” a whole person on their own.

The disordered belief causes them not to act- but to appear to be acted upon by others.

In contrast, a dependent acts and reacts to others- keeping a tight leash on the dynamic by suffering frequents plays of guilt for not having done the job right and compulsively returning to make it right.  The Borderline doesn’t have the capacity for guilt as the dependent does because they have not internalized the rigid rules that allow for obsessive compulsive control- therefore they run from attachment to attachment out of shame and yearning for an idealized new start.  The dependent stays and tries harder, as if their very life depends upon a resolution of success.

Dependents often suffer from anxiety and worry that they will be perceived as unworthy in their efforts, and this fear demands that they take on a coping mechanism of obsessive compulsive rules, regulations and requirements for safe interpersonal interaction.  These demands become a working hypothesis to prevent the loss of self esteem that they see reflected in the eyes of others.  Since the Dependent *sense of self* is attached to self esteemed “actions”- they often are confounded when the reactions of their primary objects (and the modern day reinterpretations of them) frustrate and re-buff them- so they try harder.

The dependent has suffered through the abandonment depression yet recreates the primary object out of guilt, in order to control it to better reflect the compliant sense of good “self.” Because the dependent learns to feed their sense of good self this way, they often choose partners (primary objects) that they can do something for- (and in exchange for)- a better chance at re-living their own in-gratitude status in childhood. Since this exchange requires neediness in order for the trade to be successful, the dependent often chooses people that they perceive as needy – even someone that just needs attention- (this applies to friendships too)- only to lose themselves in the primary needs of others. They then become a reactionary (lose control) of these “one down” people and try like hell to right the loss of perceived control.

Being “good,” requires Dependents to compulsively seek out Mates that re-create and become reflective of their childhood drive to attend to the primary needs of their primary objects (Parents) while foregoing their own primary needs.

They have been taught to cope by utilizing rules and regulations for life and often become traumatized when scapegoated or put down in a smear campaign during the aftermath of a relationship. Due to low self esteem and guilt, Dependents often return to failed relationships because of their obsessive compulsive qualities.   In other words, Dependents don’t give up very easily and they often mate for life. When given bad feedback- it appears like a life or death loss of esteemed identity. Dependents express great sadness when they lose the opportunity to have others depend on them as their efforts are tied to their self-esteem.

 

Borderlines on the other hand, have internalized perceptions of deficiency and captivity that causes them great shame. Because of this, they often flee a failed relationship in compulsive victimization (a working hypothesis) rather than stay and tough it out like Dependents who are seeking an esteemed sense of self.

One has a self that requires others for reflective tasking; the other has a part time self that needs others to become whole.  One knows exactly what their identity is and begins a process of utilizing rules and regulations to define the boundaries of the self and the other does not know what their value is until others project that value; i.e, the rules change when each partner changes and are mirrored according to the partner.  One is self-directed and the other is chameleon-like; an adaptation to “try-on” whatever others expect of them.

[blender]

My BPD was out to save the world.  She took care of everyone's problems - the cleaning lady, the front desk guy, every relative, friend.  Everyone's problems became her mission.   She took care of everyone - except me  :'(    I was left to fend for myself. 

[Clearmind]

2010 - thanks so much for revisiting this thread.

Being “good,” requires Dependents to compulsively seek out Mates that re-create and become reflective of their childhood drive to attend to the primary needs of their primary objects (Parents) while foregoing their own primary needs.

The constant battle between good and evil for a pwBPD sends them into a tail spin - I saw this first hand. His primary needs were negated/not understood in the first instance - and when I could not validate anymore due to exhaustion - I couldnt be mirrored and instead became the persecutor for his failing self - which I had propped up in the first instance. Phew!