Are those w/BPD also narcissists?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Friends,

I'm posing this question because so many posts on this site describe a BPD r/s as "all about the pwBPD."  The needs of the Non generally take a back seat in a BPD r/s.  Those w/BPD often engage in drama and cry wolf in order to get attention and, if necessary, will prod, bully and goad to get the Non to engage.  For all these reasons, it seems like those w/BPD have a narcissistic side.  Has anyone else observed that narcissism seems to be common thread among those who suffer from BPD?

LuckyJim

[Lucky Jim]

Friends,

I'm posing this question because so many posts on this site describe a BPD r/s as "all about the pwBPD."  The needs of the Non generally take a back seat in a BPD r/s.  Those w/BPD often engage in drama and cry wolf in order to get attention and, if necessary, will prod, bully and goad to get the Non to engage.  For all these reasons, it seems like those w/BPD have a narcissistic side.  Has anyone else observed that narcissism seems to be common thread among those who suffer from BPD?

LuckyJim

[meridian]

Yes, I find this to be true as well... .  Look at Donald Trump... .  A real BPD in living color and is a Narcissist at the same time.  It is very difficult personality to deal with... .

[I_Am_The_Fire]

From my experience and what my therapist tells me, I believe BPD and NPD have some things in common but not everything. Sometimes I get confused which is which and then remind myself both are unhealthy.

[DaddyBear77]

LJ, I was JUST thinking about this and I think your observation is spot on, at least in regards to my relationship. They are so intertwined, I am often confused as to which set of traits I should identify in my posts. Is this a "BPD thing"? Or is this an "NPD thing"? A little of both?

Over the years, I've noticed a gradual shift away from BPD-dominant traits toward more NPD-dominant traits, but they're both still there.

And one more observation, and this is not meant to be political at all, but if you follow the press coverage regarding the current US President, you'll almost never see a mention of BPD, but you'll very often see headlines about NPD / Narcissism. This could indicate that NPD traits are more observable to the outside world, while BPD traits are often hidden from outside view with the exception of very low functioning people with strong BPD traits.

[once removed]

so many posts on this site describe a BPD r/s as "all about the pwBPD."  The needs of the Non generally take a back seat in a BPD r/s.

i think its important to keep in mind that this is a one sided perspective, speaking out of hurt; thats all we are hearing. i dont know that we want to invest in that perspective to the point that we try to diagnose someone we havent met or heard a side of the story from, at the risk of validating the invalid, and/or triangulating.

 Those w/BPD often engage in drama and cry wolf in order to get attention and, if necessary, will prod, bully and goad to get the Non to engage.  For all these reasons, it seems like those w/BPD have a narcissistic side.

while there is overlap in cluster b disorders, the motivating, driving factors tend to differ significantly:

Does it Really Matter

It does. The behaviors exhibited during a relationship for all of these afflictions can look somewhat alike but the driving forces and the implications can be very different. For example, was that lying predatory (as in ASPD), ego driven (as in NPD), defensive (as in BPD), a result of being out of control (as in alcoholism), or social ineptitude (as in Aspergers). Was it situational, episodic (bipolar), or has it been chronic. Yes, all lying is bad, but the ways to handle it and the prognosis is not the same in all situations.


https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-borderline-personality-disorder

[Skip]

A difficult thing about "PDs" in general, and specifically about this PD, is understanding where the line of pathology is drawn - which is higher than most think - this term gets kicked around pretty liberally on message boards.  There are some websites out there droning on about malignant narcissistic husbands and fathers -- but this term, which was coined in 1964 by social psychologist Erich Fromm, is meant to describe "severe mental sickness" representing "the quintessence of evil". He characterized the condition as "the most severe pathology and the root of the most vicious destructiveness and inhumanity" -- basically the likes of Josef Stalin, Saddam Hussein, and Adolf Hitler.
 
There is a difference between "being narcissistic" and having NPD and a "malignant narcissistic".
 
This is not to suggest that there are not narcissists or NPD personality types. There are -- and NPD tendencies/traits may better describe your loved one than BPD tendencies.  It is to say that that making a dual diagnosis may be more confusing than helpful for your purposes.
 
The two criteria often cited at bpdfamily as "NPD" are "lack of empathy" and "portray a perfect image to others" (e.g., acting like mother of the year in public events with the family).  Both of these issues may just very well be accounted for in the definition of borderline personality.  Empathy is key criteria in the diagnosis of BPD -- in the DSM-5 architects proposed it be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).  Mirroring (lack of identity, self-direction) could explains the false image portrayal.
 
The overlap of the PD descriptions in the DSM IV and 5.0 are not all that neat and tidy. In a 2008 study, the comorbidity of BPD with another personality disorder was very high at 74% (77% for men, 72% for women).  They attempted to fix this is the DSM-5.0 (2013) but the solution was tabled and will be studied further.
 

Comorbid w/BPD--------------  Paranoid  Schizoid  Schizotypal  Antisocial  Histrionic  Narcissistic  Avoidant  Dependent  OCD  More info

Men-----------  17%  11%  39%  19%  10%  47%  11%   2%   2%

Women-------  25%  14%  35%   9%  10%  32%  16%   4%  24%

 
When asking differential questions about multiple personality disorders, it is important to understand why you are asking the question and how you intend to use the information. Without this perspective and focus, the data may be overwhelming, confusing and misleading.  Examples of focus would be:
 

• What is the difference/is there a difference between a BPD and a BPD/NPD with respect to treatment for a child?

• What is the difference/is there a difference between a BPD and a BPD/NPD with respect to using communication tools with your spouse?

• What is the difference/is there a difference between a BPD and a BPD/NPD with respect to emotionally detaching from a toxic relationship?

• Are we just looking for a more toxic sounding name that is commensurate with how much pain or hurt we feel?  A mildly borderline individual can wreck a lot of damage in a relationship - even more so if we were not standing on firm ground the entire time - it doesn't take a lot more than that.

Some helpful hints for sorting through this.
 

• General and Specific There are definitions for "personality disorder" as a category and then there are definitions for the subcategories (i.e., borderline, narcissistic, antisocial, etc.).  Start with the broader definition first.  Keep in mind that to be a personality disorder, symptoms have been present for an extended period of time, are inflexible and pervasive, and are not a result of alcohol or drugs or another psychiatric disorder - - the history of symptoms can be traced back to adolescence or at least early adulthood - - the symptoms have caused and continue to cause significant distress or negative consequences in different aspects of the person's life. Symptoms are seen in at least two of the following areas: thoughts (ways of looking at the world, thinking about self or others, and interacting), emotions (appropriateness, intensity, and range of emotional functioning), interpersonal functioning (relationships and interpersonal skills), or impulse control

• Spectrum Disorders  An extremely important aspect of understanding mental disorders is understanding that there is a spectrum of severity. A spectrum is comprised of relatively "severe" mental disorders as well as relatively "mild and nonclinical deficits".  Some people with BPD traits cannot work, are hospitalized or incarcerated, and even kill themselves.  On the other hand, some fall below the threshold for clinical diagnosis and are simply very immature and self centered and difficult in intimate relationships.

• Comorbidity Borderline patients often present for evaluation or treatment with one or more comorbid axis I disorders (e.g.,depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder, ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa). It is not unusual for symptoms of these other disorders to mask the underlying borderline psychopathology, impeding accurate diagnosis and making treatment planning difficult. In some cases, it isn’t until treatment for other disorders fails that BPD is diagnosed.  Complicating this, additional axis I disorders may also develop over time.  Because of the frequency with which these clinically difficult situations occur, a substantial amount of research concerning the axis I comorbidity of borderline personality disorder has been conducted. A lot is based on small sample sizes so the numbers vary.  Be careful to look at the sample in any study -- comorbidity rates can differ significantly depending on whether the study population is treatment seeking individuals or random individuals in the community.  Also be aware that comorbidity rates  are generally lower in less severe cases of borderline personality disorder.

• Don't become an Amateur Psychologist or Neurosurgeon  While awareness is a very good thing, if one suspects a mental disorder in the family it is best to see a mental health professional for an informed opinion and for some direction - even more so if you are emotionally distressed yourself and not at the top of your game.  

I hope this helps keep it in perspective.  
 
Skip


Additional discussions... .
 
Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder

[Lucky Jim]

There is a difference between "being narcissistic" and having NPD and a "malignant narcissistic". smiley

Right, my question was whether those w/BPD have a narcissistic side, not whether they have NPD.

Needless to say, it's a complex issue and this is a really interesting discussion.

Thanks to all for your replies,
LJ

[Skip]

my question was whether those w/BPD have a narcissistic side... .

Jim,

This question may reflect a misunderstanding of what a personality disorder is. We all have narcissistic traits. Personality disorders are constellations of pathologic traits.

Are you possibly asking a question like, does a monkey have a human hand?  :)oes a dog have a human eye?

What trait do you have in mind that is distinctly and uniquely narcissistic that some people with BPD traits express?

Skip

[StayStrongNow]

I have researched and I am still learning but as I was trying to learn of why my uxBPDw actions seemed to not only include those with a pwBPD there are also narcissistic and attention seeking traits pervasive in her personality. Coupled with that "cluster" of traits she had severe fear anxieties of things like screaming in fear when I zipped up a tent she was in to give her privacy. Another example of her anxieties is when she screamed in fear while snorkeling observing giant turtles she was distracted and in high fright of a small school of very small fish. So she had another "cluster" of traits of fears different than the other "cluster" of traits of emotional instability.

I was so confused by my X's actions for so long but with the knowledge I have gained every time I remember any of her actions she took that were once such a mystery then I refer to what I learned and it can explain these so accurately to me.

The first set of traits pertaining to her high emotions state relate to a person with Cluster B Personality Disorders. The set of traits relating to her phobias and heightened fears relate to a person with Cluster C Personality Disorder. She is much more effected by Cluster Bs and the BPD most than the others.

I have known my X longer than anyone in her adult life and I have seen the BPD cycles first hand to know that she primarily has traits of BPD first, the other less. This is hereditary, her mother and grandmother have traits of BPD also.

Now I know there are the seasoned posters here at bpdfamily who are going to try to blast holes in my opinion, scold me for not doing this or that, jab me for just not working on my self to be and living my life the "proper" NON way. They will remind me I am not a T and how dare I make such claims. But the fact of the matter is I have obtained the best closure for me because all these traits as described almost universally is exactly the way it is with my X and there is no doubt about it. Nobody went through my world exactly how I did with my X and continue to do so. Actually with some residual anger at her and myself I am still working on, my light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter and brighter.

Knowledge is power.

[Herodias]

From all of my research, there is a spectrum that people can be. Not necessarily all just one disorder. BPD in general consists of many of the different traits to begin with, so sometimes it can be confusing. I have learned we should not try and label anyone. Even the psychiatrists now are putting them into a category "cluster B".  It took me a long time not to label him, because I just wanted to know what he was, so I thought I could understand how to deal with him. He was diagnosed with a "personality disorder" and that was it! My ex has symptoms of all... .mostly on the anti-social side. He even asked me if he was a psychopath when I was taking classes about it. His parents read "walking on eggshells" and told me that I was wrong about the BPD. I think they just want to keep it all a secret. I believe mine to be anti-social now, but it is amazing how linked together they all can be. I thought he was caring and feeling. Now I see he was controlling and manipulating. He did not have empathy when I thought he did and he used the self destruction and cutting himself as attention seeking. Even though a therapist is the only one to diagnose someone, I believe those of us who live with them see more than they tell them. They also know how to answer the questions... .I think we should put them in one big category sometimes and leave it at that. Too confusing.

[roberto516]

Traits for sure I believe. My ex was a former coworker. The individual who supervised my internship now has a psyd. He knew her as well. He believes my ex displayed narcissist and histrionic traits. When my therapist (who worked 3 decades at a psych hospital as a therapist) told me "she sounds BPD" and I told him what the psyd said he replied "well borderline in a nutshell is really just a combination of narcissist and histrionic traits. Which makes sense to me when you look at all 3 of them individually and then combine the two together.

Not a fact I'm saying. But an interesting thought to ponder.

Also, my ex would have certainly met criteria for BPD in her youth based off what she told me (diagnosed anorexia, self-harm, intense relationships etc). I think 2 decades of antidepressants and on and off again therapy has mitigated a lot of the symptoms. (She finally admitted to me near the end she battled anorexia and still feels very betrayed when she thinks she's fat and someone brushes her off as being silly... .she's not fat at all btw.)

But many of the traits still linger. One last thing, new years day her cousin who she rarely sees anymore came down to visit. She brought my exe's Xmas gift. It was a shirt that said "it's all about me". Everyone laughed but I remember sitting there thinking "my god that's way too accurate". Can't get more narcissistic trait like than that in my opinion.

[Idsrvt2]

My x during one of the first msg exchanges we had, before that it was all in person communications... said to me "I think I fear hurting others" and I replied "but do you hurt people?" I was stunned as he seemed so nice to me in person.
He wrote something like " when attacked or when stressed he needs space" Andy that he seems to be a slow moving target

I remember in my driveway him yelling at me almost pleading for me to stay away from him... I was again stunned this was a few days after the msg he sent... .he said that he is not right in the head and isnlike his father, has rage issues, and he can't explain it, but he picks apart people and can find things about them and hurt them.   I immediately said to him do you mean like a narcassist... .he said no, he is not NPD as he feels too deeply.

A few days later he took all the above back and claimed it was to scare me off from knowing the truth that he was raped.

He came to me and said he has a PD he things split personality and he was getting helpmwith therapy and had already told his boss.   

I'm starting to think some of this may have all been an act of a NPD... even the RO on me ... he would take all texts as mean and harsh his coworker told me that he takes things very personally even if it's not meant as such.

I've never been with someone that would up and dump me and regret it, or take out an RO and then want to withdrawal it .

He claims he feels too much to be NPD ... I really just don't know

It's still leaves me puzzled today and I see him daily now and he can just walk past my house etc like I never existed. A ghost is what I now call him

[insideoutside]

Yes most definitely.  My friend was diagnosed Bipolar (or so he says) but he more fits BPD but def has strong narc traits too.  He has an inflated sense of self at the best of times but after our last fight I noticed he put some extremely egotistical things about himself on Facebook, such as living in a very affluent area of London (when in reality he lives in one bedroom in a shared house) and that he was a philanthropist.  Yeah, ok then!

[Skip]

Are we missing the point?

This is a pretty senior level thread, guys.

Most of us are familiar with Meyers Briggs test.  It divides categorizes everyone into one of 16 personality types. It's an extension of Swiss psychiatrist, Carl Yung's work.

In a similar sense, the personality disorder characterization does the same (there is actually incidental correlation to Meyers Briggs), but at the pathological levels.

Most of our exes are subclinical, so we are, in a sense, looking at high end of a Meyers Briggs classification or a very low end of a clinical classification.

The point in all of this is that people mostly fit into one personality type and that tells informed others what to expect of that person. It tells us how to read them and how to best communicate. In the clinical setting, how to treat them.

And, of course, in a statistical distribution, some are located dead center of a classification box (very clear), some are nearer to the borders of the box.

Going backward: If we can get a general idea on where our partner fits within these classifications, we can better understand what transpired in the relationship and better understand the nature of the conflict we engaged in. What was normal incompatibility, what was pathology or immaturity (either side), how did we make things worse by not getting it, etc.

Going forward:If we can get our hands around this, we can better deal with the world in front of us. 25% of the population has a DSM disorder.

    short term mental illness (e.g., depression),
    substance induced illness (e.g., alcoholism),
    a mood disorder (e.g., bipolar),
    an anxiety disorder (e.g., PTSD),
    a personality disorder (e.g., BPD, NPD, 8 others),
    a neurodevelopmental disorder (e.g., ADHD, Aspergers), or
    any combination of the above (i.e., co-morbidity).

We are dealing with people with issues more that we know, many of us have issues we didn't realize we have. We can clean up our side of the street and become street smart to compassionately navigate among others with problems without letting them become our problems.

[DaddyBear77]

Ok Skip, so, let me see if I can summarize what you're saying:

1. Everyone has a unique clinical classification / profile, similar to how everyone fits into a certain Meyers Briggs type
2. Clinical classifications fall within a statistical distribution, and most people are on the edges, not the center
3. "In a 2008 study, the comorbidity of BPD with another personality disorder was very high at 74%"
4. For clinical purposes, it's important to identify the primary diagnosis, and most people fit more strongly into one or the other.
5. The authors of the DSM-V recognized the overlap, but were unable to come up with a "neat and tidy" solution.

So, therefore, the most important conclusion is:

We are dealing with people with issues more that we know, many of us have issues we didn't realize we have. We can clean up our side of the street and become street smart to compassionately navigate among others with problems without letting them become our problems.

[Lucky Jim]

Friends,

Maybe we are making this more complicated than it needs to be?

I started this thread because, in my experience, those w/BPD tend to have traits of self-centeredness coupled with a disregard for the feelings of others, which can be viewed as narcissistic qualities.

Narcissism, of course, is a spectrum disorder and we are all on the continuum, to a greater or lesser extent, as Skip notes.  My question was whether you agree/disagree that those w/BPD tend to have these particular narcissistic traits, not whether they have NPD.

Thanks to all for contributing to an interesting discussion,
LuckyJim

[Skip]

will prod, bully and goad to get the Non to engage.  For all these reasons, it seems like those w/BPD have a narcissistic side.  

self-centeredness coupled with a disregard for the feelings of others, which can be viewed as narcissistic qualities.

I think these are characteristics of many physical and mental illnesses, situations of stress, and substance abuse/addiction and generally inherent to BPD as well. Neither (self-centeredness, or a disregard for the feelings of others) is listed as an specific NPD trait - these traits are inherent to many things.

So yes, I think pwBPD traits can be self-centered at times and disregard the feelings of others - there are many pwBPD who are giving and empathetic at times (e.g. caregivers, etc.).

So, no, I don't think BPD = NPD ("Are those w/BPD also narcissists?".

[StayStrongNow]

Lucky Jim, I do believe that my uxBPDw definitely has traits of a pwNPD and also traits of Histrionic HPD. These traits are like a bundle of yarn meshing together into the Cluster B type of personality. Please note I use the words traits, the same as a T we both were seeing used to describe her.

Even though my X's life became unmanageable, out of control and not functional she had such high esteem amoung other NPD traits of herself at the same time her mug shots were hitting the Internet. She was arrested and convicted 3 times including domestic battery, she was found indicated by DCFS several times and had many other numerous incidences showing she just lost it. Her opposing council in our divorce settlement and custody agreement conceded she had a "mental instability issues" her attorney quipped and backed down from a trial that "would have been a blood bath" for my X as my attorney put it. Meanwhile besides conducting actions of a pwBPD she definitely showed and continue to display to this day NPD traits.

My vote would be that if a person has traits of a pwBPD then they would most likely have some extent of traits of a pwNPD.