Do pwBPD traits ever truly understand the pain they cause their loved ones?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have studied BPD and Anxiety traits in depth now for the past four (4) years. I understand the "Relationship Disorder" aspects of these traits, and that pwBPD (people with BPD) traits may tend to harm those people closest to them in their respective lives due to their "hypersensitivities" (or making massive "Mountains out of Molehills" over typically very benign incidents).  

I also understand that they may feel minimal empathy and compassion for themselves as well as for others close to them. Again, a person may not treat anyone else around them any better than they treat themselves. Short of them being possessed by the Devil himself, I still can't figure out how someone may change that drastically in just a short period of time.

Yet, I still can not fathom or comprehend how they truly inflict so much pain and suffering on their loved ones (spouses or former spouses, children, parents, etc.) without being completely 100% guilt free. I get that pwBPD traits may feel unlovable, unworthy, and may tend to act with a lot of guilt and shame even before they "split" their loved ones. Yet, how overwhelming must their guilt and shame be AFTER they figuratively "crush" their loved ones after "splitting" us from "all good" to "all bad"?

These questions are more for a BPD specialist, a Non who had some to a lot of relationship improvements, or a recovered Borderline though, and are as follows:

1.) "Why do you or pwBPD traits try to destroy (financially, emotionally, etc.) the very same people who were your or their Best Friends or closest loved ones?"

2.) "How can you or them not feel any minimal empathy or compassion, especially when those same loved or former loved ones offer to help you?"

3.) "Was there anything specific (a memory, a therapist, a "stress trigger" event, other family members and friends speaking to you or them, or other incidents) which made you or them "snap" out of it, and act like a compassionate, considerate, loving, and empathetic Human Being once again?"

As I have written before, I would venture to guess that few people on this Board have endured a more horrific "High Conflict Divorce" than me IN SPITE of me being a very compassionate, empathetic, faithful, and loving Best Friend to my ex for 20 years. I have tried to resolve this nightmare family conflict anyway possible, but absolutely NOTHING has worked to date so now I want to hear back from others who may have had some successes, hopefully.

Forgiveness + Compassion + Empathy + Love = Healing! (For both pwBPD traits and the Nons)

“Holding onto anger is like drinking poison, and expecting the other person to die.” (Buddha)    

[SeaCliff]

I have studied BPD and Anxiety traits in depth now for the past four (4) years. I understand the "Relationship Disorder" aspects of these traits, and that pwBPD (people with BPD) traits may tend to harm those people closest to them in their respective lives due to their "hypersensitivities" (or making massive "Mountains out of Molehills" over typically very benign incidents).  

I also understand that they may feel minimal empathy and compassion for themselves as well as for others close to them. Again, a person may not treat anyone else around them any better than they treat themselves. Short of them being possessed by the Devil himself, I still can't figure out how someone may change that drastically in just a short period of time.

Yet, I still can not fathom or comprehend how they truly inflict so much pain and suffering on their loved ones (spouses or former spouses, children, parents, etc.) without being completely 100% guilt free. I get that pwBPD traits may feel unlovable, unworthy, and may tend to act with a lot of guilt and shame even before they "split" their loved ones. Yet, how overwhelming must their guilt and shame be AFTER they figuratively "crush" their loved ones after "splitting" us from "all good" to "all bad"?

These questions are more for a BPD specialist, a Non who had some to a lot of relationship improvements, or a recovered Borderline though, and are as follows:

1.) "Why do you or pwBPD traits try to destroy (financially, emotionally, etc.) the very same people who were your or their Best Friends or closest loved ones?"

2.) "How can you or them not feel any minimal empathy or compassion, especially when those same loved or former loved ones offer to help you?"

3.) "Was there anything specific (a memory, a therapist, a "stress trigger" event, other family members and friends speaking to you or them, or other incidents) which made you or them "snap" out of it, and act like a compassionate, considerate, loving, and empathetic Human Being once again?"

As I have written before, I would venture to guess that few people on this Board have endured a more horrific "High Conflict Divorce" than me IN SPITE of me being a very compassionate, empathetic, faithful, and loving Best Friend to my ex for 20 years. I have tried to resolve this nightmare family conflict anyway possible, but absolutely NOTHING has worked to date so now I want to hear back from others who may have had some successes, hopefully.

Forgiveness + Compassion + Empathy + Love = Healing! (For both pwBPD traits and the Nons)

“Holding onto anger is like drinking poison, and expecting the other person to die.” (Buddha)    

[schwing]

I'll take a shot at your questions... .  

I understand the "Relationship Disorder" aspects of these traits, and that pwBPD (people with BPD) traits may tend to harm those people closest to them in their respective lives due to their "hypersensitivities" (or making massive "Mountains out of Molehills" over typically very benign incidents).  

My understanding of their "hypersensitivities" is that pwBPD are unable to regulate their emotional states; they cannot temper their temper (among other emotions).  Moreover, they tend to "harm those people closest to them" because those are the kinds of relationships which triggered their most disordered emotional states: irrational fear of abandonment.

I also understand that they may feel minimal empathy and compassion for themselves as well as for others close to them. Again, a person may not treat anyone else around them any better than they treat themselves. Short of them being possessed by the Devil himself, I still can't figure out how someone may change that drastically in just a short period of time.  

Unless they also exhibit narcissistic traits (which include lack of empathy), pwBPD do have empathy (and compassion) except when their own unregulated emotional states override such feelings.  It is hard to *feel what others are feelings* (empathy) or concern for the suffering of others (compassion) when one is overwhelmed by one's own suffering (real or imagined).

Yet, I still can not fathom or comprehend how they truly inflict so much pain and suffering on their loved ones (spouses or former spouses, children, parents, etc.) without being completely 100% guilt free. I get that pwBPD traits may feel unlovable, unworthy, and may tend to act with a lot of guilt and shame even before they "split" their loved ones. Yet, how overwhelming must their guilt and shame be AFTER they figuratively "crush" their loved ones after "splitting" us from "all good" to "all bad"?

I believe they "process" their guilt in the same way that they process their other disordered emotional states, in a dysfunctional disordered way.  For example, they might "project" that guilt onto us.  So instead of they having mistreated us badly, *we* mistreated *them* badly.  They cannot handle guilt for too long or else they would "split" themselves all bad; though sometimes they do persist in extreme depressed states when they are terribly harsh on themselves.  And these bad feelings about themselves can lead to some very dark places where suicide might be contemplated.

1.) "Why do you or pwBPD traits try to destroy (financially, emotionally, etc.) the very same people who were your or their Best Friends or closest loved ones?"  

They mount their "distortion campaigns" (I believe) after having "projected" their bad feelings and behaviors onto us.  So instead them cheating on us, or mistreating us over the years, they suddenly believe that it was we who cheated on them or mistreated them over the years.  And it is not enough that they entertain these delusions, but they feel compelled to convince the rest of society of what they believe.  Anyone that does not whole heartedly subscribe to their delusions is cut off.

Also their distorted fear of abandonment must play a role in this behavior.  Now that they are not in fear of abandonment should they express their disordered and confusing feelings, they can give full voice to their distorted fear that we would abandon them.  And so not only did we treat them badly over the years, but also we had always intended to abandon them.  They will communicate an experience of which only they were aware.

I think they might even be angry at us for these feelings.  It is an anger they probably should feel having suffered the core abandonment trauma which set them on the road for borderline personality disorder.  But it is a displaced anger.  And in the aftermath of these relationships, we become the lightning rods.

2.) "How can you or them not feel any minimal empathy or compassion, especially when those same loved or former loved ones offer to help you?"

As I speculated about, their most immediate feelings, that of projected guilt and shame, anger from how this experiences reminds them of their abandonment trauma, all these intense emotions override any sympathy, empathy or compassion they might otherwise feel towards us.  Maybe at some point in time, they might be able to recall the relationship more objectively.  But by then they would not be able to recall any of the positive emotions either due to their "emotional amnesia."  Certainly there would be no sentiment.  Some positive emotion might exist if they wish to "recycle" our relationship.  I believe they would stop "loving" us, so long as they no longer "need" us.

3.) "Was there anything specific (a memory, a therapist, a "stress trigger" event, other family members and friends speaking to you or them, or other incidents) which made you or them "snap" out of it, and act like a compassionate, considerate, loving, and empathetic Human Being once again?"

I don't believe anything would "snap [them] out of it" in the sense that their disorder is not an occasional dysfunction.  Once we accept that when they do act like "a compassionate, considerate, loving, and empathetic Human Being" it is only when they are idealizing us.  When you realize that for pwBPD, the reasons why and how they idealize us, are the same reasons why they devalue us, then you will see that there is nothing to "snap out of" the whole are of the relationship is just one cycle in a repeating pattern of disordered behavior.

For you, for us, for anyone that has already gone through a "cycle" it is rare for them to repeat that cycle because of the history and intimacy and thus disordered feelings that stirs in them.  But for someone brand new, or sufficiently distant, they can repeat this cycle.  And for the new person, they can be that "compassionate, considerate, loving, and empathetic Human Being."

It is not that they are incapable.  They are incapable for being so for long because of the wound within them that remains unaddressed, unhealed and unrecognized (by them).

Best wishes, Schwing

[SeaCliff]

You are very wise, Schwing. Thank you for taking the time to reply. For me, I sometimes wish that I may stop being empathetic towards her too so my pain may lessen as well. Yet, I am well aware of her years of health challenges, and Family Tree dysfunction. I am a "Problem Solver" at heart, but I can't seem to solve this horrific problem in spite of my years of efforts.

[GustheDog]

I don't believe anything would "snap [them] out of it" in the sense that their disorder is not an occasional dysfunction.  Once we accept that when they do act like "a compassionate, considerate, loving, and empathetic Human Being" it is only when they are idealizing us.  When you realize that for pwBPD, the reasons why and how they idealize us, are the same reasons why they devalue us, then you will see that there is nothing to "snap out of" the whole are of the relationship is just one cycle in a repeating pattern of disordered behavior.

For you, for us, for anyone that has already gone through a "cycle" it is rare for them to repeat that cycle because of the history and intimacy and thus disordered feelings that stirs in them.  But for someone brand new, or sufficiently distant, they can repeat this cycle.  And for the new person, they can be that "compassionate, considerate, loving, and empathetic Human Being."

It is not that they are incapable.  They are incapable for being so for long because of the wound within them that remains unaddressed, unhealed and unrecognized (by them).

Best wishes, Schwing

Hi Schwing,

Hoping you can elaborate on, or direct me to some resources, that help explain a couple things here.

First, I understand that they do idealize us and later devalue us, and I have a pretty decent grasp on why the devalue us as well.  It has never occurred to me, however, why we are idealized in the first place.  Is it because they're constantly searching for that elusive "one" that will save them from their distress forever - that is, before a person becomes familiar enough to trigger them, do they believe they've found a unicorn and then devalue when we turn out to be ordinary mules?  But, if so, I'm still a little confused as to why the idealization so intense.  Stated differently, why isn't it just "I'm really into you" followed by devaluation rather than "I worship you" followed by same?

Also, I thought that it was in fact not rare for them to recycle.  Can you explain your contrary statement above?

And by "sufficiently distant," do you mean physical or emotional proximity, or both/either?  If emotional, why should they have been triggered to move through the full cycle in the first place?

Thanks!

[karhues]

Hi Troyman,

I too have been extremely hurt by my ex - we were best of friends and married for over 20 years.  The divorce was more painful then the death of my mom, my dad and my brother.  We almost went to trial because of his sick and twisted ways.  I had to dig deep into my soul to gather the courage to divorce him - it broke me and took me two years of therapy not to cry everyday.  The following is my story:

I was divorced from ex of 20 years for 2 years when he came back into my life and child's life.  I was very skeptical at first - the divorce was very painful - his constant cheating and lies were too much plus he did something so awful I could not go back.  So anyway he pursues me thru our oldest daughter - who also has issues and has been hospitalized - she tells me how dad has changed and just wants another chance.  A month goes by and he calls or stops by - offers to help us move.  I accept the help after all he is in another relationship so I figure he'll leave me alone - he tells me the relationship isn't going well - she's selfish etc.  So the next thing I know he's back and things were amazing.  He helped me with my eldest actually stepped in when she would go off on me - but as time went on - I would say about a year into our new relationship - the same patterns emerged.  My daughter would start talking to me in an awful way and he would just sit there like nothing was happening - the more I asked for support the more distant bacame.  He wanted to move in with us - I said no - I liked it the way it was and was taking the risk of losing yet another house because he fell in love with yet another.  So anyway everytime my eldest became too much to handle he would volunteer to take her to his place to cool down - I thought how great - however, I found out later after looking though his phone records that he was texting several women the whole time he was staying at his place.  I later found out he was cheating me on the whole time.  He never broke up with the women he was with when we got back together and actually stayed in that one for several more months and when that one ended he tried to recycle the one relationship with the women he was with that help cause our divorce.  There were about 15 women in all in a matter of 2 years - he denied it of course - I saw nude photos, inappropriate texts and videos - when I addressed it he would say "I can't help what these women send me"  or "I can't help what you think in your head"  and " there are so many desperate 30, 40 and 50 years old's out there - its so easy and he admitted to loving the attention.  He would never never take responsibility - I tried to explain how much it hurt me and how much I loved him and how blessed we were to have a another chance to be a family.  He knew how much family meant to me - I had just buried my brother the year prior and both parents in the past 5 years.  I told his I couldn't do this anymore - the toxic relationship was making me ill - he said he knew and wanted to get better.  Better it did not - I tried to communicate something was not right the last weekend I saw him - we ended the weekend fine - I thought - For the next 2 weeks he disappeared off the planet - he wouldn't answer by calls or text nothing - well my daughter's b-day arrived at the end of those 2 weeks and she get a text from him saying he'll be over after work - I wasn't surprised - he came over with his brother - I tried talking to him - but he was very distant - anyway the next few days came lovely texts - he wanted to take me out anywhere I wanted to go - I declined the pain was too much - I'm back in therapy weekly - the only time I've ever needed therapy is when he does this to me.  He said he understood.  Next come the texts about how it him and not me - how wonderful I am etc.  How he is getting darker and darker and that he is going to see a therapist to work on the underlying problem - I was so happy - I thought wow - he's going to get better - well he went to one appointment which he said went great however in the next week he as met yet another student of his who is newly divorced and needy and gone is the therapy.  Of course he didn't tell me no he kept telling me how much he loved me and he missed my terribly but come on after being thru this over and over how stupid could I be so I checked on his Facebook and there she is a new friends who loves motorcycles I addressed it and he lies telling me she's just another student nothing more - well a few weeks go by and he informs me hes done with therapy I again question the new friend on Facebook he finally admits he's been seeing her for a month now.  So that month when he was missing me etc was all a lie -he moved on again!  Christmas comes and there she is what a lovely sight - my youngest again has to meet another.  He hasn't bother with my youngest in months - missed her play, her college tours - her homecoming - but now he wants to bring her to the movies to show the new love of his life what a great dad he is - just great.  Just to put the frosting on the cake he also texted me Christmas morning to tell me "I'm thinking of you often and that he loves me"   WHAT?  To make matters even more twisted his new girlfriend has given my eldest a job in her office.  This happens with each of his girlfriends - my eldest gets close to them and at the same time is aware that her dad has a few other women on the side but told not to say anything - to her dad is cool - he always gets what he wants - what a great role model.

So to answer your question - why do they hurt the ones they love - I believe he is very sick as is our daughter - I try not to hate either and try with all my might to wish them well.  I am again in therapy and feel extremely broken - I miss him with my whole being but I know being with him will kill me - each and every time he lies to me, cheats on me repeatedly I die a little more.  I need to detach and gain comfort in knowing I did all I could do and I can't fix crazy.  Best of luck on your journey.

[SeaCliff]

Best of luck and speedy healing to all of us in our family conflicts, Karhues. I am sorry to read about your painful family traumas as well.

I know at least thirty (30) people who have endured absolutely horrific "High Conflict Divorce Cases". In every case, the "Non" (male or female) was a kind, supportive, compassionate, and loving person.

The longest marriages with "High Conflict Personality" People typically include a spouse who may have "Rescuer", "Enabler", and / or "Healer" traits since we tend to be the ones who will put up with their mood swings as we also try to honor our marital vows which included "in sickness and in health."

Fear ("False Evidence Appearing Real" comes from within as does Love, Trust, Compassion, Anger, Empathy, and Healing. While we can't seem to change them, we may try to change ourselves instead.

[schwing]

@GustheDog

First, I understand that they do idealize us and later devalue us, and I have a pretty decent grasp on why the devalue us as well.  It has never occurred to me, however, why we are idealized in the first place.  Is it because they're constantly searching for that elusive "one" that will save them from their distress forever - that is, before a person becomes familiar enough to trigger them, do they believe they've found a unicorn and then devalue when we turn out to be ordinary mules?  

That sounds about right.  My understanding is that for them, romantic feelings don't quite provoke their visceral disordered fear of abandonment quite like the intimacy developed around familiarity (i.e., family).  And they are trying to find the "elusive one" which is the one person who they can be intimately connected to without provoking their disordered feelings.

And often they *think* they've found it when they get deeply involved with people in these fast whirlwind relationships.  They *think* wow, I can marry this person because I don't feel crazy around them... .  until that starts happening, and then Pandora opens the box.

But, if so, I'm still a little confused as to why the idealization so intense.  

I believe it's intense because for pwBPD, I think they have a deep seated desire to work through this psychological problem that non-disordered people have.  As non-disordered people, our first lesson in attachment is working out our feelings with our parents, as toddlers.  Our parents are our worlds, and we demand from them a sense of stability, security, attention/affection, attachment.  I think that as adults we "fall in love" when we encounter a relationship that reminds us so much of this first lesson that regress to very old and deep feelings, feelings which pwBPD feel each time they form an unstable attachment with a new person.  I think unconsciously they want to move past that stage of development, but what stops them each time is the memory (and in some cases deeply buried memories) of the trauma they sustained when they were first learning to work through that attachment.  And their learned lesson was, "my parent has abandoned me" (real or imagined).

For non-disordered people, subsequent relationships (post parental) have allowed us to build upon our palate of what kinds of relationship we seek and tolerate.  For disordered people, I think they will just keep repeating that first lesson until they finally get past that trauma... .  and then find themselves.

Stated differently, why isn't it just "I'm really into you" followed by devaluation rather than "I worship you" followed by same?

I think because their relationships are "binary" (perhaps for the same reason why they "split", they are either "all in" (deeply in love) or "all out" (acquaintance).

Also, I thought that it was in fact not rare for them to recycle.  Can you explain your contrary statement above?

I don't mean that they rarely recycle.  I mean that it is rare for them to get back to that early state of idealization.  They might try to re-establish, but unless they can disconnect the acquired intimacy developed over the time spent with them, they will devalue much sooner that they (or we) would expect.  The relationship cannot be "new" again.  

And by "sufficiently distant," do you mean physical or emotional proximity, or both/either?  If emotional, why should they have been triggered to move through the full cycle in the first place?

I mean emotionally distant.  Being physically distant can help.  But so long as they feel attached, connected, then their disordered feelings are just bubbling at the surface.  

I mean when they feel emotionally connected/intimate and *vulnerable* this is what triggers their disordered feelings.  In the beginning, we were more or less strangers.  Granted we were behaving very intimately, but without true familiarity (that developed over time spent together), their disordered feelings were less triggered, allowing them more space to "idealize" -- then, they could fill in the blanks with their own delusions.  

We might "recycle" our relationships, but I don't think we ever get to a point where we "fall in love" in the same way as in the beginning.

[SeaCliff]

Thanks for another informative post, Schwing. Show me someone with a severe personality and / or anxiety disorder trait, and I will show you someone with Nutritional Deficiencies, Heavy Metals toxicities, too much exposure to wireless (high or low frequency) devices, and damage to their butterfly-shaped Thyroid, Adrenals, and / or Amygdala ("fear and stress center" of the brain - Greek for "almond" due to it's shape) with or without any childhood traumas, in many cases.

Everything is curable by our Immune System, and our bodies and minds are all connected as ONE. For me as an almost lifelong natural health enthusiast, I think that anything is possible and curable which makes BPD so frustrating for me.

Since it is a "Relationship Disorder" at it's core, people with BPD who are not in a relationship with me are able to listen to me since I don't trigger their negative emotions. Ironically, I prefer to make people laugh instead.

[WhisperingGoose]

I second what Troyman said about root causes, it's a big picture to see.  On a related note my BPDex blamed most of her problems on the fact that her mother was perscribed amphetamines during pregnancy (in the '60's).  BPDex also had addiction problems regarding amphetamines so it was a convenient excuse as well as a real thing.  Between in utero and adult drug abuse there may well have been brain damage.  I can't say I ever figured out what the childhood trauma was about or if there was any.  She alluded to neglect and trauma but nothing specific and her parents are just too loving for me to believe anything really terrible happened.  I always felt she was looking for sympathy or justifying her state when she inferred abuse and neglect.

[waitaminute]

Fwiw... .  

After i said goodbye and went through a few weeks of being painted black, panted white, threatened, insulted, guilted... .  She did say "I am sorry for what i did to your life."

[Jay08]

Fwiw... .  

After i said goodbye and went through a few weeks of being painted black, panted white, threatened, insulted, guilted... .  She did say "I am sorry for what i did to your life."

Hey at least you got that!

My ex called me 3 weeks after NC accusing me of writing on her car, then told me crying, "i know you did it, because quite frankly i was such a b*tch to you and deserve it"

That was the closest apology i ever got .