4 months NC -- now here we go

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Welp,

Almost 4 months out. I get a text a couple nights ago from his best gal pal (who was also my friend)... basically saying she hoped everything was going well.

I get to work the next morning, and my best friend who works with me said she got a personal message from him on FB asking her to tell me happy new year if I'd receive it well, if I'd be upset then to delete the message and not mention it.  

Seems to be a rash of postings like that lately.  Of course she was going to tell me. She didn't respond... .  of course I wasn't going to initiate even though it did peeve me that he put my friend in that position... she was stressed about it.

I'm sitting here at work, busting away on an important project and now 45 minutes ago, I get an email at my work:

I need to discuss something important with you.  What I have to say needs to be said in person.  Can you please meet me next Saturday afternoon?  This is not an idle request just so I can chat with you.  It is important so will you please come listen to what I have to say?  Please

Crap, now his gal pal just texted me and said "PLEASE call me!"

Now I'm scared. My palms are sweating and I'm panicking.  I got STD tested 2 months out... .  I don't know, maybe I should get tested again. SHOOT!

[Yolo]

Welp,

Almost 4 months out. I get a text a couple nights ago from his best gal pal (who was also my friend)... basically saying she hoped everything was going well.

I get to work the next morning, and my best friend who works with me said she got a personal message from him on FB asking her to tell me happy new year if I'd receive it well, if I'd be upset then to delete the message and not mention it.  

Seems to be a rash of postings like that lately.  Of course she was going to tell me. She didn't respond... .  of course I wasn't going to initiate even though it did peeve me that he put my friend in that position... she was stressed about it.

I'm sitting here at work, busting away on an important project and now 45 minutes ago, I get an email at my work:

I need to discuss something important with you.  What I have to say needs to be said in person.  Can you please meet me next Saturday afternoon?  This is not an idle request just so I can chat with you.  It is important so will you please come listen to what I have to say?  Please

Crap, now his gal pal just texted me and said "PLEASE call me!"

Now I'm scared. My palms are sweating and I'm panicking.  I got STD tested 2 months out... .  I don't know, maybe I should get tested again. SHOOT!

[exbpdgf]

My unasked for advice is yup, go get tested, do whatever you have to do, but stay NC! It sure smells like a triangulation (read definition) to me.

[ambi]

Ouch.  No words of wisdom to offer.  What do you think you're going to do?

[gina louise]

If you don't feel good or comfortable about face to face just say no, I would prefer that if you have something to say you write it, mail it, or e-mail it.

Whatever gives YOU control over the situation.

Be polite- but politely decline the f2f meeting if you feel anxious. Don't let your ex wrestle control back with a surprise ambush.

I'd be wary if I were you.

GL

[Blessed0329]

I agree with the sentiments expressed, especially for you to do what gives you control over this. Also remember that while we might express urgency over something that is really urgent, pwBPD might express urgency over something that, quite frankly, is not urgent at all, except in their minds.

[myself]

Wouldn't do face to face. Crucial info can be transferred electronically. If it's std and he told his friend before you? It could just be a recycling attempt. Best to stay NC. If anything, text back "What is it? I'm busy moving on" or however you would word that.

[Yolo]

Update: I was at work so I was concise, but very unsettled, so I logged on here at work.  My drive home is about 20 min.

I try to get settled in and see his best friend trying to call me... .  goes to missed mostly because I'm like OMG WHAT is going on? This must be serious. Now I'm really worried at this point.  She and I really liked each other but also knew what the deal was. She's his friend. If something happens... .  we can still admire each other, but continued friendship was a no-go.  I think that is respectible enough.

The fact she has gone out of her way to contact me in spite of his potential "wrath" worried me, because she implicitly knew what the 'rules' were as did I and they were rational.  An email from him speaking in vague language... then 30 min later her begging text then within the next hour her trying to CALL ME? Clearly she knew what was going on and clearly she may even be aiding him... .  /cry... do I need to block her now?

Maybe she like me so much that she is thinking that he and I getting back together will be the only way we can be friends again (true).

I settled down... .  then I texted her this:

Me: Hi XXXXXX, sorry I missed your call... I can't really talk right now. I got [ExBPD's] email at work but was super busy. He was vague. I'm guessing you know what this is about and I'm pretty concerned about it. Is this STD related?  Am I about to be subpeoned to court?

She said: It's not a bad thing... .  I promise you. That's why I contaced you. I feel like you would appreciate hearing what he has to say.

So me... .  I'm relieved, that maybe I don't have to go get RE-TESTED just to be sure... AND I'm not to be called as a character witness in some messed up legal case.

I say: Oh god, thank you! I thought someone was dying or that 2013 was setting up for epic failure.  Thanks so much and sorry you are being involved.

I thought she would drop it at this point... .  I thought I gave her her out for being involed. But no.  She says:

If the situation was reverse I would want you to encourage me to go.

Anyway, I'm relived to think that maybe I don't have to go get retested for STDs (he was a man-whore... .  I understood this while I was in it, and got tested 2 months out and by grace of God clean bill!).  I was relieved that some legal thing didn't come up where I didn't have to attest to his character and maybe that is why he wanted to talk to me 'in person'.

What needs to be understood is that my ExBPD and I always related and communicated very similarly in writing, so half of our relationship was in correspondence, even if we'd see each other that evening.  We saw each other 3-4 times a week... .  we'd correspond text, constant written communication every day.  Our previous recycles have been through correspondence.   He can be very shakesperean in his recycles... and in his idealization phases... .  mesmorising with words.  Our prior recycles were all through correspondence.  So what he wrote me today was so different than the last 3.

So this was new.  Using my best friend as a conduit.  She was ticked... .  she hates him.  Using his best friend who he knows is still in my good graces [tho maybe not so much anymore because I also thought she'd fight for me on the inside, want the best for me and DISCOURAGE him from interfering]... .  this is new I've never experienced it before.

Anyway, I feel bad... since New Years I've been bombarded at work very busy and focused not much time here on the forum the last week. I spent months thinking this would happen and it is true... .  just when you are really starting to make progress... .  sometimes--just sometimes it's like "BOOGEY BOOGEY BOOGEY"!

I knew this was the first place I needed to go to express my shock.  I knew he'd contact me as soon as I got the wierd text from his friend only to find out that he'd personal messaged my best friend the same day. On the break I thought it'd be sooner. We'd only gone 2-3 weeks NC longest before... .  I had reasons to think this time might take longer... but thru the holidays nothing so I really started to think, OK... .  IT IS OVER.

He was always direct in past recycles... from him to me, now he's using my best friend and his best friend whom he knows I adore but couldn't keep.  His correspondence today, not shakesperean... .  matter of fact yet urgent.

Like a virus. He's changed his form and the game because he knows I'm immune to the old games.  Oh god.

I love this forum.  On the outside it is so easy to see... .  when you are in it. Fricken suckes.  If his BPD pattern would stay the same that is easier. Hes changing it because he knows... .  he knows I expected it sooner, he knows I expected poetic prose and apologies, he knows I expected it directly from him.  Now... .  it was... .  wait 4 months, entangle best friend, entangle his best friend who he knows there remains mutual respect, send direct message that is devoid of emotion but wrought with practical urgency.

OMG he's good!

[patientandclear]

Seems pretty clear he is going to tell you (if you see him) that he regrets many things, wants to make amends, will do things differently, and cannot live without you.

Maybe that he will pursue therapy.

So the question is: what do you think about that?  Is the answer no no matter what?  Is it no unless he takes certain steps?  Is it no for now, let me know if you get well into BPD-targeted therapy & want to pursue this?

[ambi]

It really does sound like a recycle attempt.  Are you thinking about meeting him?  How are you handling all of this?

[Yolo]

Thank you for your responses guys... .  they really helped calm me down a bit... .  you are all so very right!

I did respond to his friend and said told her that she is a great friend and that I love her but nothing personal but we should stop communicating now.  She said she that I'm always so sweet, that she understood and just wants the best for me. 

I did email him,  pretty short, not addressing the meeting up thing.  I asked him to please not involve our friends, that my friend was upset at getting his message on FB, and that between him and his friend I made my self sick thinking something really bad had or was about to happen.

Then I threw in that I had loved him and that had given energy to some things in the end that don't matter now months later. [referring to how I ended it... .  I was ruthless and called him a mean, sick, selfish a-hole and told him to go F-himself]. 

I signed off by saying I didn't want a big exchange, more concerned about our friends, I don't hate you.

Guess maybe thinking that he's had some difficulty moving on because he thought I hated him... .  perhaps this has made his shame unbearable.

He responded with sorry for upsetting my friend, he merely wanted to send his best wishes. Then to Please meet him next Saturday, the rest will become clear.  He understands it's been months but he wants the best for me and truly means no harm.

I need to figure out how to word things as to decline his request... .  I agree with all of you, I need to maintain control of this and scurry back to NC.  Even if he were to admit he was sick and would commit to therapy (which is something he hasn't tried yet), I know too much now with this forum to gamble more of my life away on that bet.

Anyway, I feel much less scrambled today and I guess NC and actively working on detachment has helped.  There would have been a time I would have considered meeting him.  That is not going to happen now

Thanks again to everyone that helped get me back to center!

[afterdeath]

wouldnt it be a totaly shutter island experience if he were to meet with you and tried explaining hes worried for your health and thinks you have BPD and need therapy? Id believe i was crazy all over again... .  i doubt those are his intentions... but wouldnt it be totally ludicrious... .  on a side note it sounds like hes read or taken some very poorly written or expressed "how to get your ex back"... .  the trick is seeing you in person retriggers you unbeknownst yourself... if he were to touch you in anyway youd be screwed with emotions... .  be assured it would be a facade and a mask... he wouldnt be magically better... only acting... .  ive been down this road... .  stay strong... let your gut guide you and ignore your fickle and wounded heart... good luck

[ambi]

TemptingFate - he's not done yet.  There will be more attempts to contact, more emails. Whatever this Saturday thing involves, he anticipates it will make you happy and so does the mutual friend.   TemptingFate.  This is tempting fate, isn't it?  

[willy45]

Funny... .  along the Shutter Island lines... .  

At one point, after about 2 months of the breakup, my ex went to therapy. She went for 3 sessions. She told me she didn't like the therapist so quit. But, her major breakthrough was to figure out that I was bipolar and that explained all my major ups and downs. That is what she figured out. It was nothing about her rages, her cheating, her abuse. The reason for our breakup was that I was bipolar. And man, did that mess with my head. Still does, a bit. I went to see two different therapists who specialize in bipolar to get some answers. And no, I am not bipolar. I was just struggling to figure out a) who she was since she would be one person one day and another person another... .  actually, that is generous... .  she would be one person one minute (super loving, tender, kind) and another person another minute (raging, angry, depressed). I told her that I had gone to see specialists in bipolar. She told me: "Isn't that the clearest example of you being bipolar?" She then made fun of me for spending all this money on therapy and told me that she didn't need it to get through the breakup.

So... .  that is my story. She was so heavily invested in not looking at her own behavior or understanding it that her big breakthrough that she just HAD to tell me was that I was mentally ill. Good times. Am I perfect? No. Do I have baggage. Sure. Do I have feelings? Of course. Does this make me a human being? YES! Should a relationship include the leeway to have feelings, to struggle with things, to get upset when your 'partner' is raging at you in the middle of the night? YES!

Not sure if this story helps, but might be a cautionary tale. I know for me that there is a pull to see behind the curtain and to see if she has come to any sane conclusions or done any introspection or come close to healing. That is a HUGE pull for me. I keep thinking she will one day come to the conclusion that her behavior was out of line, that is was abusive, and that she is working to change. I keep thinking that. Why? I am heavily invested in the fantasy of her. Not her. She will never do that. She doesn't have that capacity. And it has only been recently that I've figured this out. Asking her to understand herself, apologize, and make credible steps towards healing is like asking a color blind person to see blue when they can't. It is like trying to explain the color blue and getting upset that they just can't. The problem then lies in me. I need to accept that she doesn't have that capacity and that she never will. And I need to value myself and accept that her not having that capacity is not something I want to live with. I need to love myself enough to value my perceptions, value my judgement, and value my own self-worth.

It sounds like you are well on your way in this regards. To not get sucked in to looking behind the curtain and hoping to see something that you KNOW doesn't exist and will NEVER exist. Good for you.

[exbpdgf]

Ive found out the hard way that even the best of people can get "sucked" into my ex BPDgf's "fog". I had such an experience yesterday. Every time I've even considered any sort of info, I've always regretted it. And I've been sucked in on several occasions in the past year.

My ex is a pro at telling people what they want to hear. I've learned that just because I trust someone, I absolutely cannot confuse this with trusting anything they say about my EX. Regardless of who says what,  I have to stay NC. My sense (just from what you've written) is that your friend has been unwittingly sucked into some such charm offensive by a dangerous person.

[willy45]

TemptingFate... .  

How did your Saturday go?

J.

[myself]

TemptingFate, that is YOUR Saturday, to do with whatever you feel.

It's HIS Saturday, too. Hope he makes the best of it without you.

Don't slip back into the FOG, you're thinking clearly now.

Being NC, you don't need to respond.

He already got the message.

You're done.

[gina louise]

tempting fate,

TRIANGLES mean LOOK OUT. (in road signs... .  right?)

and he tossed two of them at you with two people.

don't engage. he's lonely. let him be.

consider it a huge favor to yourself.

My stbxBPDh still texts me his dreams. funny huh? nothing much else.

GL

[Yolo]

Thank you all for your input once again….

I responded to his request to see him next Saturday early yesterday after I wrote here.  I told him that  didn’t think a face to face was a good idea and it wasn’t because I detested him or was still hurt/angry.  It also wasn’t because I was afraid of him or that he’d be mean or spiteful.

I said I question why face to face was so necessary... that I wasn’t ready for a friendship or even knowing about his life right now, and that I was open to very limited contact via email. And by limited I mean limited.

Then I said it was very brave of him to reach out and kind to wish me well, I appreciated his strength and that I really do wish him well too.

His response was : I completely understand your reservations. If I were in your shoes I can appreciate that I would feel  exactly the same.  Please rest assured that this has nothing to do with resolving some old matter between us, me reaching out to form a friendship, beginning limited contact, my obtaining reassurance, a need to express something left unsaid, or to simply make me feel better.  All those things could be done quiet easily via email.  This is not a ploy to say what could be said over the phone or email, but to just do so in person instead.   I love you very much and would not want to do anything to jeopardize your peace of mind.

I do a good job of just letting that sit for several hours.

Then his gal pal again: “I would not encourage you to see him if I didn’t think it was important that you do. Please just go. You won’t be sorry.”

So, I just lay off any responses and go out to dinner with two of my friends (different from the one that got that FB message earlier this week).  Both of these friends have very different personalities.  We talked about it for hours.  They actually thought I should go, though they were very annoyed at the fact he just won’t go away.

Rationale:  If I don’t go I will be curious as to what this "thing" is that both he and his friend are tight lipped about.  It may eat at me.  [True].  If I don’t go, I’ll be looking over my shoulder waiting for him to show up at my home or work…if he’s desperate to see me he can make that happen (he’s done it before in a prior break up).  I don’t handle surprises like that well, that was part of the issue in the relationship was constantly being taken off guard.  If I go it’s controlled, I know when and where it is going to happen.  My friends also noted that at 4 months, I still seem overly concerned about bumping into him while we are out and about…that I restrict where us girls go based on what I know of his kid schedule, and that this might be a good way to “Face my Fear” and realize he isn’t so big and scary.   Since the last interaction was bad, maybe to put me at ease about the bumping into scenario.

Then we speculated as to what this could possibly be, and we all do think that it’s possible he hit rock bottom and realized he’s messed up and will be pursuing therapy.  We all agreed for HIM this would be HUGE.  For him to admit he has issues and intends to work on them? Huge, and sometimes doesn’t happen for some until people hit the bottom.  That would make sense why his gal pal is so persistent in her ‘encouragement’.  She certainly has hung out with him enough to see he has issues.  I think she also knew he could treat me like crap, and even “came to my rescue” a couple times.

So like PnC said, I need to figure out where I stand.  I feel like I know I will NEVER get back into that relationship the way that was.  The trust is too far gone and even the thought of it makes me queasy.  The only thing that would give me pause is if he is seeking help, but he has to do that on his own, for himself not me.  So I can not re-enter that relationship just based on that scenario.  I might start to consider it way down the  line after commitment has been demonstrated, and that is IF I’m still available.  I can’t continue to work on my issues with him (or anyone) in my life.  Same with him.

So I wrote him after considering all I know, all the input from my friends on the forum, and my two girlfriends and decided….drumroll… to go ahead and see him.

I know, I know…potentially a bad move, and a test of my resolve, but I do want to make an attempt to be mature about this.  I don’t feel like I’m just going to melt at the sight of him.  Towards the end of the relationship, I didn’t really want to be around him at all.  I just don’t think he could possibly say anything to reverse my aversion to him in general. 

I feel like I know him too well now, and know enough to stay strong. 

When I wrote him, I told him I couldn’t do next Saturday, but maybe Sunday but he needed to understand that that relationship had become highly dysfunctional and toxic (once again) and that I will not be returning to it.  Sometimes love does not conquer all …in our case it made us very sick.  That I didn’t want to discuss it, but he needs to understand this is not going to be some Hollywood style reunion, that I am not convinced anything good will come at meeting in person, but would like for each of us to be at peace.  As long as he understood that I could do 3:30 next Sunday at a coffeeshop.

I did this to set his expectations correctly, that I don’t have an intention of reconciling with him.

He responded:  Perfect. I will see you in seven days and seven hours.  I so want to write and write and write you more, but I will leave what needs to be said for my opportunity then to speak to you in person.  Thank you for trusting me to come and listen. Until then….

So there you have it guys.   Guess I’m about to get tested…at least I’m fairly certain he will leave me alone for the next week.  I’m at peace with it, not nervous at all because I do believe I’m resolved.   I just don’t think there is any ‘in-love-ness’ left, I don’t feel the same way about him.  I do think my path will be less  encumbered if he is at peace.  Although there is a chance he could throw a curve ball at me…I think I’ve thought of all the likely scenarios, and if him entering therapy is what he wants to tell me, I know I can be supportive of that, and also stand firm that we need to take these journeys separately and if fate would have it in the cards for us, maybe we can talk in several months.

Am I doing this for him or doing this for me?…I feel like I’m doing this for me.  I’m curious as all hell to figure out what this ‘thing’ is…he and his gal pal have done a great job of setting up some massive mystery.  [Curiosity killed the cat? Hope not!]  I know he does not have some mystical power over me…I’ve already been disenchanted.  I know he can not make me go back into the relationship, I have power over that.  I can not be recycled if I don’t allow it, and I won’t, I simply can’t, I’d more have to FORCE myself to get recycled than FORCE  myself to turn away.

[seeking balance]

We are not done until we are done - this is something you want to do.

If I were in your shoes - I would brush up on the staying board lessons.  Make sure you are comfortable with communication tools and clearly identify your boundaries prior to going and what you will do if  a bounday is crossed.  Having a strategy will help you.

I have been on these boards for a while... .  lessons are learned many ways and one thing for sure - the emotional journey you are going on by engaging in this will give you lessons and you will have a clear gage on where you are in your own detachment process.

Good luck!

[Seahorse1]

What if he tells you he is getting married?

Just putting it out there as you know how these people can be... .  

I never understand why people can't just say what ever it is they want to say... .  If I had something important to tell them I would tell them ASAP even if that meant over the phone... .  

[seeking balance]

What if he tells you he is getting married?

Just as likely - grand jesture wanting to marry Tempting Fate

[trouble11]

Good luck TemptingFate.  I would be shaking like a leaf.  I'm coming up on the 4 month mark and starting to get text.  I know they're all different, but mine runs in four month cycles like clockwork.  Weird.

[myself]

TemptingFate, Even though I'd still say don't go, it's brave of you to do so and I wish you well. As long as you're not giving away your power by doing so, which it sounds like you're not doing. It helped me in some ways to see my ex again (we didn't agree to meet, though, she just showed up). I saw she wasn't 18 feet tall towering over me with madness in her eyes and sharp teeth (well, at least she's not that tall). The only sense of closure I got from it was seeing the disorder in action some more, showing me it's best to stay away. I saw things had changed: For Me. Other than that I just felt sorry for her.

Being "curious what his 'thing' is" could be a hook he's using to draw you in. What about the next time he has a 'thing' he feels he has to share? Will you meet him then, or not? Having seen it this time around, you may not need to, but what if it's another 'thing'? So much of these relationships revolve around the patterns. Be careful which ones you step back into, and which you help create. Read between the lines of his response, too:

HE: "Perfect. I will see you in seven days and seven hours.  I so want to write and write and write you more, but I will leave what needs to be said for my opportunity then to speak to you in person.  Thank you for trusting me to come and listen. Until then…."

Nothing's ever 'perfect'. He has this timed down to the very hour. He'd earlier said he's not trying to reconnect, yet he could 'write and write and write more'. He's getting another chance (that he may not deserve, that's up to you) and he's running with it. It's all about him. He thanks you for trusting him because he knows he hasn't proven trustworthy to you and you're nervous to even be around him now. He sees he's getting his way. 'Until then... .  ' sounds like you're already in his web and it's just a matter of time until... .  Whatever he has up his sleeve. Looks like you'll find out soon enough.

Sorry. Too many times around the block with this kind of stuff. Too many tricks and times it was supposed to go one way but it went another. Again, good luck with this, but it's probably just an attempt to reel you back in somehow, and it could have been done by email (or NOT AT ALL) instead of getting you worked up and going through it.

Maybe he'll see firsthand YOUR important new 'thing', as well. Your Freedom.

[ambi]

I'd have agreed to go, too, just because I'd always wonder about it.  At the same time, though, I don't understand the secrecy/cryptic aspect to it.   Wouldn't other people preface this so you had a small clue about it?  That's the part that makes it feel like a game of sorts.  

And then the 7 days and 7 hours thing - that really sounds like a recycle kind of phrase. 

I'm sure everyone's advice is the smartest course of action, but I get why you're going. 

I hope all goes well.  

[HardTruth]

Hi TF.  I think it's manipulative that whatever it is is a big secret.  And all the things he said - I don't want to hurt you or hurt your peace of mind - ... .  bull___.  He has already shown that his feelings and desires come first.  Whatever he wants to meet about, it's something that he wants for HIMSELF. 

I think that often BPD's don't intentionally do things to hurt us, but they do as a result of acting on their impulses, fears of abandonment/engulfment, etc.  I don't think they know HOW to truly keep YOUR interest in mind. 

Perhaps he thinks that whatever is good for him is good for you.  How often in the past was he even able to put himself in your shoes and act from that place?  My guess is that he's not doing that now.

Personally, I probably would have told him that I would consider meeting him after he told me what the topic of the meeting was.  If he was unable to tell me the topic, I would say, Sorry, can't meet you then. 

Honestly, what is the big secret?  It's just a bunch of drama, I'm guessing. 

One of my exNPDbf's did that to me.  "Oh, it's so urgent, it's so urgent! Must see you right now!"  I had a big test coming up that I was studying for - "Oh, it won't take long".  Lies lies.  So I met him, and guess what?  He proposed to me!  Got on one knee, the whole thing.  I was dating someone else at the time, that I was totally in love with.  He had just hit a wall and couldn't stand to see me happy with the new guy and wanted to steal me back.  Disgusting.  And yes, it wasn't a short event.  Took 2-3 hours out of my precious studying time!  But, surprise surprise, it is always about HIM. 

I think somehow he thought I would drop everything when he said the magical words "love" and "marriage".  Nope.  I'd rather get an A on my test... .  :P

Anyway, just my 2 cents.  Good luck to you on Sat

[exbpdgf]

Yeah, I gotta say to me it sounds like he's manipulating again-he used any way he could  to get at you. To me, his "trump" card was your curiosity. Even if he tells you he's getting help, he's got a long road ahead of him. Even if he tells you he's joining the seminary, the peace corp, won the lottery or is getting married, i hear danger danger!

[Yolo]

One of my gal pals spent the night with me, then we hung out at my place just shooting the breeze all day and 80% was not about this situation, so it wasn't like I was all frantic obsessing about it and having to talk about this for an entire weekend.  I've had dinner with friends, chatted about it, moved on to their lives... .  it's been good.

BUT, as HT said, not wanting to disturb my peace... that is BS, because he already has. 

Bottom line... .  this is ridiculous. We have been broken up for 4 months and then as Gina L said the surprise ambush, and that is what it felt like! By him, and his gal pal who he knew I still highly respected.

Sad she probably doesn't even realize she's been manipulated, she probably feels like she is doing the best thing for him and for me.

He is good in changing his pattern completely... .  and I mean... I thought I could anticipate, but he messed that rubix cube up so much that I've become disoriented again.

But the fact is... .  his gal pal and himself gave it away. If they wanted to guarantee I'd be there they would have never revealed that it wasn't something horrible... .  someone dying, some residual ickiness I needed to be made aware of (STD), some bull I'd be pulled into just by being involved with him for almost 4 yrs (legal).  So if they wanted to be sure I'd be there, they would have been smart enough to make sure I thought this was a very severe negative thing that should be discussed in person.  It was a flaw to try to keep me in by saying it's nothing bad at all.

Guess that depends on perspective, because good for him (or even in the exMutual friend's mind) is NOT good for me.

I do not want to hurt myself, and I do not want to hurt him.  If this is about reconciliation, that is not going to happen.  He should not put himself through it... .  and I kind of dread having to tell him "no" again especially if he becomes emotional.  If it is about him being so proud as to tell me he's "seen the light... I'm messed up and going to therapy!"... .  it will still be sad because I will still have to walk away... .  for a considerable amount of time.  If it is he has 'news' about his life, I don't even want to hear anything about it... gone out of my way not to hear it or care about it.

The potential "good", I think, may not be a good experience for him or for me. It all points to me needing to walk away, and to do that face to face... .  UGH!

I thought about Seahorse's response and thought UGHHH! Well I don't want to hear that! Like we've been out for 4 months and I don't need him rubbing that in my face, I've avoided info about his life for that reason... .  but can see why something like that 'might' validate a face to face?  Then SeekingBalance and HardTruth... .  what if he is thinking to propose... .  UGH! That'd be horrible!  I care for him, I've loved him, but I just know I'd have to say 'no'... .  omg, just awful to imagine because I'd love to say yes to Dr. Jekyll, and no to Mr. Hyde.

Anyway... .  I've tried to warn him that I'm not happy about going and that that relationship was toxic. I don't see any good coming from face to face and that I'm very reluctant to go, but want peace. 

The reality is that IF this isn't something 'bad', then there is no reason for me to go... .  we are over. It is done. I'm not going back.  Having some scene in person will just be hurtful to both of us.

So... plan of action.  I don't think he will actually be able to keep from contacting me for a whole week.  When he does ping me, I do think that I will tell him that I feel like it would be fair for him to give me more information as to what I'm walking into on Sunday... at least give me a clue if he feels like email is not appropriate, but that I should not have to walk in blind... .  or as Hard Truth said,  I won't walk in at all.

That is reasonable. I am no longer obligated. We are supposed to be moving on... .  so... .  I don't owe him anything.

Anyway, sister calling! Probably to give her 2 cents as well... .  

I thank you all... .  and kind of thank the Ex for giving me a week look at this with my friends to see what it is. Thank you, guys!   

[myself]

If it's really over, you don't even need a clue.

My ex has been fishing lately, too. Can't catch what isn't there.

He's not being honest with you. Make sure you are (sounds like you are).

[Thyrsos]

Sticky spot... .  

In the words of Admiral Ackbar: "It's a trap!" 

I guess I'm lucky my exBPDgf painted me so black I will never hear from her again.

I do not envy you, or anyone, who has to deal with this soulripping behavior.

Wish you the best!

"May the force be with you!" 

[BleedsOrange]

"I would write you and write you and write you more... .  "

You think he thinks this isnt a movie-style reunion? That's some pretty smarmy crap right there. Brace yourself. Oh, and yeah best ceckity check the staying boards so you are SURE you can keep your head straight no matter what comes about.

[exbpdgf]

I agree with everything that's been written. Here's a bit of rough advice: change your mind, don't go, don't communicate further with him (you already gave him a win IMO-any communication is a win).

Really, do you really need more information? As you said, it's already been exposed, it's starting to unravel, just  same old stuff in a new package.

Needing more info is a trap too. Whether it comes as honey or vinegar. These folks are masters at dangling just enough information to "hook" us.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... .  

[patientandclear]

For what it's worth, I think it makes sense to go if (i) it will bother you if you don't find out what he wants to say (I find the torture of wondering/not knowing to be more work than knowing & dealing with whatever it is); and/or (ii) you might possibly, under some set of circumstances, be open to continuing your relationship.

NC is a tool.  It is not the goal.  If it gets in the way of serene acceptance of where you end up, it is not helpful.  Sometimes, it does.

It's true that sometimes, needless exposure to pleas and promises, when you know ahead of time you would categorically dismiss them, is unhelpful.  So then, NC is a good tool.  It prevents the tugging and confusion that occurs when you hear pleas you already know you should not respond to.

But sometimes, we need to know.  I think sometimes we can confuse the tool with the goal.  As several veterans on this board observe from time to time, the goal is detachment. NC is a strategy for getting there, but there are others.

Even if you stay connected to this person, a degree of detachment is important.  For me, renewed contact after a period of NC has been helpful in achieving detachment -- I am now dealing with the real person, not the mythical idealized possible partner of my dreams.

My point is just that I don't think that, by seeing him, TF, you are sentencing yourself to "relapse" or make bad decisions.  You quite possibly can see him and still make good decisions.  The question is just whether you are in a place emotionally to manage that.  You probably have a pretty good sense of that yourself, and those of us on this board don't know that as well as you do.

[BleedsOrange]

Really great point, P&C.

[Yolo]

Good Evening bpdfamily.com friends!

It’s been a long week so far, and oddly, not because of the Ex or this ‘opportunity’ that’s been thrust my way.  I’ve been super busy at work, and I’m happy to say, thinking about this has been a low priority.

Myself, you are right... it does seem pretty calculated and manipulative. And I do believe he threw the ‘thanks for trusting me’ thing in there because he knows I don’t trust him.  Maybe it sounds like a recycle attempt, ambi, I don’t know. He hasn’t inquired about my availability (which I know doesn’t matter to a lot of BPDs), but seems he wouldn’t want to put himself out there only to be told that.

ExBPDgf, I thought about writing him to inquire more about the nature, or just call it off.  But I don’t want to lead in about any mental state, true or possibly perceived by him. Less is more.

I guess at first I thought he’d leave me alone till then…not wanting to scare me off, then thought nah, he won’t be able to resist pinging me for an entire 7 days.  Which would give me an opening to get more info or bail.  As it’s looking now, it’s scenario 1 so far.

I didn’t realize that the gal pal had left me a vMail when I missed her call last Friday.  I’m terrible at listening to vMail. Listened last night and she had left me a voice mail.  She seemed very serious, and kind, encouraging me to go and listen to him…but not all giddy. She said she’d just gotten off the phone with him and he told her that he’d written me.  So that put the skids on my vision of the two of them sitting next to each other, conspiring to ‘reel me in’. May have been her own initiative.

On Monday, I too was sort of like, this smells like a ‘trap’!

But you know what, I glanced at Green Mango’s post about the Challenge, and reframing.  I’m not trying to downplay his possible motivation, or what he’s capable of, but if I reframe this, We are broken up. We have been for 4 months.  The way things ended, he is risking MUCH more in terms of rejection than I am.  He has much more at stake than I do really.  He is the one that should be nervous, especially given how it ended.  I shouldn’t be nervous or worried, he should.

This is a coffeeshop, he’s much less likely to get teary or emotional in public…so I can’t see much of a scene.  He ‘says’ he assures me it is not to rehash unresolved matters, no need to get into the past stuff then.  He ‘says’ it isn’t to form a friendship…no need to get into personal details of our separate lives over the last 4 months.  He ‘says’ it isn’t to say things left unsaid, or to make himself feel better.  Those were his assurances.

So... I just need to be mindful, very mindful that if the past comes up, to cut the conversation short and leave.  That crap is over.  Shoot, I can’t even think too much about the past without a wave of nausea.

If it starts to get into details of our now seperate lives, I’m not his friend, and don’t want to hear it, so cut the convo short and leave. 

What I need to remember is that I am NO LONGER  OBLIGATED to him.  That feels good, to reframe in the context of I HAVE the upper hand, not him. He’s lucky I agreed to see him, and if it weren’t for his friend, I may not have.  And I can leave at any point.  We are not together anymore, and I’ll need to care more about my comfort level than his. And not feel GUILTY for cutting a conversation short and politely excusing myself if it is heading in a direction I don’t want. That is freeing to think that.

Boundaries! So this must be what they are…. Hmmm…

I’m glad for the few short exchanges where I could establish that I do not hate him and do not wish him ill and wish him the best.  So that would take the edge off of any ‘bumping into’, which I’ve been dreading since the break up. 

Yes, the curiosity is the hook.  I would always wonder about it.   Knowing how articulate we were in correspondence,  this must be unique where he does feel f2f is necessary. Okay, I’ll try to respect that. Sometimes there are things that are better expressed in person.   He is still a person and I can get that so can go in good faith.  So far, he is being nice and careful.


Going back to my other rationale, if I don’t go, and he is desperate to see me…he can.  I don’t want to be surprised at work or at home.   I read of others rattled by being taken off guard like that, and I myself have also a couple times in the past. I hate that stuff!   I’d much rather take an hour or two of my time and know when and where and hear him out. I don’t want another reason to be paranoid.

I will not, NO WHEY get back into that relationship the way it was.  I will not be tempted by “I was wrong, I’ll change, I’ll treat you better, come back”.  The first 2 times, I heard that, we negotiated and I thought happily compromised on terms,  and by the end of those cycles it all came back to the same entitled, selfish, uncaring crap and him basically abandoning those agreements he entered into with me so enthusiastically in the beginning.  AND blaming me for him not wanting to live in the agreements, it was my fault because of X, Y, and Z,  he isn’t accountable to me yada yada…and poof, they were gone and I was left enmeshed and crushed and wanting out but couldn’t seem to leave.

So this will not be, “I’ll consider it if we this, and you that, compromise”.   With him (and any BPD I guess), if they feel they are doing something for you or because of you…you are an easy scapegoat for blame when they fail.

If it comes down to any of the above, there will be a ‘no, and I’m sorry, but we’ve already tried a few times and a relationship between us has proven to be very unhealthy for me, and probably for you as well’.   And I’ll try to express that I do care for him, but we both deserve healthy relationships.

Leave it like that.  No further justification or explaining (JADE-ing)  and certainly not dredging up the past or insinuating at all that he’s possibly mentally ill, treated me ergregiously and needs to seek help.  He isn’t stupid, by a long shot. ... he was there.  He’d need to come to that conclusion on his own.

This whole *maybe*  he HAS come to that conclusion and is seeking help.  That would be worthwhile listening to since I thought pigs would fly before he’d EVER EVER come to that conclusion, much less pursue therapy.

Since that is such a long shot, I’m not going to hold my breath with that one. In fact, it is all speculation anyway. He may not be angling to get back together or start some ongoing anything so it's kind of moot right now except in being prepared.  Maybe he won the lottery with some ticket we purchased jointly and is honoring it! Yayyyyy! 

It’s going to be awkward anyway.  I’m walking into a coffeeshop to meet up with someone I really didn’t like 4 months ago and not sure I can even get to neutral with even now.  I do feel somewhat detached and disconnected, so it’ll be strange to talk about something serious with someone I feel so disconnected to. Almost like talking to someone a stranger you are uncomfortable with about something ‘serious’.  Weird.

He did honor my request for NC for 4 months. That is an accomplishment I think.  And as PnC said, NC is a tool to be used in order for ME to detach. Not to punish, or make some point.  The person I want to be is mature, and kind, and can keep to boundaries, so this is a good opportunity to exercise that.  Additionally, as SB said earlier, it is also a gage to see how far along I am in the detachment process.  SB also said in another post that sometimes we can go NC and still not make progress disconnecting.  I do want peace of mind... for myself, and for him as well.  If I manage this well, and just stay mindful of MYSELF, there is no need to think of this as some big elaborately constructed manipulative trap, but think of it as another opportunity for growth.  I can try to see it as someone that really would like to see someone else, and is doing what they can under the circumstances to get a moment of face time.  Not entirely sure any of us wouldn’t do the same thing, or at least consider the best approach if we wanted someone’s ear who may not give it to us. 

Don’t know that I’ll ever ever get to the point with that Ex as PnC has though …that’s some very patient ongoing radical acceptance right there!  Hat’s off to getting to that point, PnC. Your name says it all.

Sorry for being so wordy.  I’ll let ya’ll know how it goes Sunday.  Anything other than ‘I’m sick, seeking help’ will bring me right back to this Board.  A little wiser I hope.  The tools on Staying will be useful no doubt, (though the name of the Board is intimidating). 

Much love to you all! Back to catching up on a weeks worth of domestic chores *sigh*

[Yolo]

Happy Tuesday everyone!

I know everyone has been waiting with baited breath …okay probably not, but just in case there was a lingering “WELL, how did the story end?” thought out there I’m back to tell you, it isn’t ending, it’s being rewritten. It seems as though I’ll be spending quite a bit of time on the Staying board now.

I showed up, a little late, but feeling overall calm. He had my coffee ready and a spot outdoors picked out.  I was a bit surprised at seeing him I didn’t start testing the strength of my antiperspirant. He looked very dashing, but still…I felt I still had a very strong resolve.  He asked for a hug... and oops a little resolve slipping, or maybe it was relief from the tension.  It’d been 4 months after a pretty wicked ugly ending, so I felt much more comfortable after that.

And so he starts to talk…begins with “Fate, I want to thank you so much for what you did in September…”

Oh boy, here we go…ExBPDgf was right!  He’s gunna tell me he moved on and found the most precious thing ever and if it weren’t for me he’d never have got his act together and met her.  My head… ‘you keep talking mister so I can wish you luck and get my ass home to fume’.

And he does keep talking.  About how I was actually a crutch for him, I made it easy for him to continue on a destructive path, and until I broke that crutch could he really see the magnitude of what he’d done,  his own dysfunction,  and what he was possibly losing. He’d done a lot of journaling and looking at himself and his role in that mess. (Offered to show me too!)  There was a lot of owning up, a couple tears, admitting to baggage stemming from his estranged relationship with his mom, and his prior marriage, and sincere apologies.

So, in a way, PnC, you were correct to this point.  And although we’d tossed around that possibility here, the reality of listening to him expressing his thoughts like this was a bit surreal given, well, it just never happened like this…maybe the first time we got back together there was an aire of deep reflection and responsibility….I was in shock at how well he laid it out for me—in person.  Well, that kind of made in person meeting worth it!

We talked about that a while then….SeekingBalance, you were correct, with a huge shocking twist.  He did make the grand gesture to marry me, had the exquisitely beautiful rings, kneeled before me the whole shebang.  His proposal was really quite amazing and heartfelt.  Again, something we hypothesized about here, tho I truly didn’t really ‘believe’ would happen because he’s been Never-Getting-Married-Again-Over-My-Dead-Body for the entire relationship. 

Heres the huge shocking twist (for me), he also said he wanted a “Normal, Monogamous,  Exclusive, Committed” marriage with me.  For those that don’t know my backstory, we spent the lions share of that relationship navigating the choppy waters of an open relationship since the very beginning. Emotionally monogamous, but allowed to see other people.  He’d always proclaimed that ‘This train don’t go to monogamy-ville’.  I was flabbergasted that he was saying he was done with that disorganized playground.

I didn’t know what to say, I really didn’t.  Dear in Headlights=Me.   He’d managed to take ownership of a lot of emotional spaghetti, he managed to apologize, he proposed, and HE was insisting on M.E.C (monog,exclusive,committed).  

You know what, I believe him, every last word.  So, I said yes, but it’s conditional on both of us working on our own issues and how we interact,  our interactions always seemed to end in ways that were toxic for me, and it isn’t just going to go away because we ‘decide’ to make it go away.  We both need to do our work, or it isn’t going to work.  We will be meeting tomorrow to discuss our options / plan for structured work, therapy, counseling.  The fact he was all in with that as well is somewhat unbelievable to me.

We haven’t spent a lot of time talking about dates but he was ready to do it right then.  I think we both know we have a ton of work to do and will need a substantial amount of time to see progress and rebuild trust.

Wow, so yep, there you have it.  I am still processing it all….I went in expecting God knows what kind of exchange with someone I never thought I’d even like again…to rediscovering my love for him.      I have a reserved enthusiasm,  tentative but excited as it really does seem his intentions are real and he’s willing to pull his weight to make this work.

 

So, Staying Board, here I come.  The upcoming months will be very telling—actions speak louder than words, in my heart of hearts, I know he would not lay all of this out for me like this if he weren’t dead serious.  I was never going to go back into that relationship the way it was, shuddered at the thought.  He seems to have turned a corner and wants something entirely different from what it ‘was’.  I certainly didn’t have this much hope the last time we got back together…in fact I felt hopeless but also powerless. 

This seems like the right thing to do…I’d always wonder if I made a huge mistake by not taking this leap of faith.

I’ve already received a ginormous heap of intervention from a couple of my friends (not all of them).  My sister actually posted on my FB wall “WOW. Is this an awful joke?”... he is fully aware I’m nervous and of where the resistance comes from and is taking it in stride and understands he has a lot of work to do to prove himself to me and my close friends/family and also to repair our relationship and ourselves.

*GULP*  If this is wishful thinking then I feel I'm basing it on something different... .  time will tell.

I got a receipt for my agreement with him yesterday.  Ok, he’s a developer and was having a bit of fun with it. 

------------------------------------------------------

We here at the Us team would like to thank for your your recent upgrade to Us 2.0. Us 2.0 is a ground up redesign from the original Us 1.0 family of products, including Us 1.0, Us 1.1, Us 1.2, and the notoriously unstable Us 1.3. We acknowledge some of our users may have had troubles with these earlier releases of the Us system, but we are confident that the new product you have recently acquired will fulfill the Us promise of a smooth operation in your business and/or home. As you take a tour of the Us 2.0 system, you will notice that the new Reach Out feature is available from anywhere in the system and we encourage our users to familiarize themselves with it, as it is one of the best ways to ensure a smooth transition from earlier versions of Us. Here on the Us team, we strive to deliver the highest quality product and are dedicated to ensuring your continued happiness and productivity.

[seeking balance]

We talked about that a while then….SeekingBalance, you were correct, with a huge shocking twist. 

if only everyone would realize this... .  

seriously, commit to the communication skills, lessons and boundaries offered by the stayers.  There are some amazing people over there.

Peace and Congratulations -

SB

[GreenMango]

Holy Smokes, I've never actually heard this happening before the full admission and the proposal all rolled up into one.  I've heard of the admissions or the let's get married.  I do think its a good that you are taking it slow to let him show you and are a still a little skeptical until you've seen more (I'd be worried if you weren't) ... .  I also agree with SeekingBalance on going to staying and work those tools.

On a serious note, we can often look for help when things are bad; but the tools on staying work better when you start early before the crisis points and utilize them from the beginning.  They are good skills to master for any relationship.  So don't wait on heading over there and introducing yourself.

Put that best foot forward by being proactive... .  and Congratulations.  Wishing you well and drop by to say hi whenever. 

[HardTruth]

Hi TF. Thanks for the update!  Yes, I wanted to know how the story ended!

Despite all his triangulating (read definition), he could recognize that you are a special, quality person.  In his mind, he perhaps wanted to make people replaceable, but you are not.

I am a little worried that there are so many grand gestures with just 4 months of reflection.  I don't think I could grow from being a person who wanted the freedom of multiple partners to one that desired the intimacy and vulnerability of monogamy in that time period, but that's just me.  I am a little suspicious because I think he knows what he would need to tell you in order to have a chance of getting you back.  What many of us want - monogamy, commitment, the acknowledgement that you are the one and no one else. 

I am glad to hear that he acknowledged where he went wrong, and that he recognizes that work, counseling needs to be done. 

My advice is to not hand your heart over to him.  To let him prove to you that his actions will meet his words.  How good was he at making his actions meet his words in the past?  Be on the lookout to see if he is really doing this or not.  Be discriminating.  Trust yourself, and not him until some time has passed and you can see that he's made and is making a deep change.  Not just for you, or to get you back, but for himself.  Does that make sense?

Good luck to you. You deserve all the things he has offered you.  I hope that he is truly up to giving those things to you

[Tausk]

I wish you the best.  When i recycled with my ex after four months (which is when poster 2010 says the greatest urge to recycle occurs), it was also because through some therapy and DBT she said that she had changed.  She talked about respecting boundaries, taking responsibility, watching her emotions... .  And at first it seemed to be better.

But I was a trigger for her and in the end we ended up even more destructive and me even more lost.  I realize that being apart was the motivation for my ex to get better.  Getting back together stopped the motivation for both of us as we got lost in the idolization. 

Perhaps one question to ask is: will my re-engagement with my ex derail his recovery.  People in substance abuse recovery are told to stay away from r/s for at least a year.  And a r/s in early recovery is the most common way that people lose any initial recovery.  For us it's even more difficult, because the drug in this addiction is relationships.

Honestly, four months of therapy is a drop in the bucket as far as real recovery for the BPD is concerned.  It's a drop in the bucket for the "nons" and we're supposed to be the ones without the disorder.  So it's a long hard road.  The vast majority of BPD, in fact almost all, don't get real recovery.  They may get to the point where the acting out is lessened, but the baseline disorder remains unless a real psychic break occurs.

My friendship/recycle cost me an additional year of recovery, and more in terms of getting back what I lost.  Worse yet, with all relapses for any addict, we do not go the place from the perspective of having a lot of recovery, very quickly we can move to the place where we would have been if we had never left. 

I wish you the best, but I'd say keep coming to the board. 

[HardTruth]

Schroder's Piano - great post, thx.  I didn't know that about the 4 months.  It has taken me years of T to change some of my fundamental beliefs that are unconscious and result in knee-jerk reactions when confronted with a trigger.

TF - In this process, in my process,  I am often reminded of one of your other threads where you gave a definition of Compassion, which was something like, Empathy for a another coupled with a desire to take action to alleviate their suffering. 

This is baseline.  I can't believe how many times I have bypassed this and overlooked this in relationship.  In favor of passion, companionship, or whatever.  If he doesn't do this, the relationship he has to offer you isn't good enough for you. 

Just my 2 cents