Lack of Affection, Sex, and Intimacy is Wearing Me Down Today

[Depression = 72% of members]

Sorry this is so long-winded... .  I really need some advice from the seasoned pros, or anyone who has figured any of this out, or, heck, just some plain support might help me.   

Uggh! Okay... .  I was doing okay today... .  been doing okay for weeks, actually. It's just this feeling that comes over me every few weeks that starts driving me crazy. I know what is causing it, but I don't know what to do about it... .  The answer is probably for me to just keep my mind off of it, and keep myself busy, but, like I said, every few weeks I get this feeling I just can't shake... .  I'm getting worn down, it seems. I don't think it is any more intense this time as it has been in the past, and I've recovered within a day every time in the past, so, I know that this feeling I have will pass, but right this minute, I'm having a hard time with it.

Okay, there is peace in my house, way more peace than not nowadays, as many of you will already know... .  That's good... .  no doubt about it, but tonight I'm feeling really needy. It's been 2 weeks since my wife and I had any intimacy, and, for at least the last 3 months, intimacy = sex for the most part. As I have told you all before, I do not initiate ANY physical contact with my wife. The reason I don't is not because my wife will reject a hug or holding hands 100% (more like about 50% chance there). If I were to try initiating sex, my chances of getting rejected would be much higher, I'd bet about 90%, since I asked. I figured that out over a year ago, and quit even trying to initiate sex, because the rejection hurt so bad... .  now, after finding that not being rejected (because I don't try), I decided about 6 months ago to stop initiating any affection, hoping to get rid of those feelings of rejection when I only wanted to hold her hand.

Well, if my wife has ever noticed this about me... .  my never being the one to reach out first anymore, she hasn;t said a word to me about it. She did send me an email the other night when I was out that said, "NO WOMEN!" Made me think that she is insecure... .  Maybe the two weeks without sex is actually triggering some insecurity on her part? I don't know... .  and I know that I can't concentrate on her motivations... .  that's not going to get me anywhere productive.

What has happened as a result of my actions? Well, here is what it's like... .  We have sex anywhere from once a month to around 3 or 4 times a month on a good month. We did go 1 full month without sex about 4 months ago, but there was at least several nights where she wanted me to hold her, and we cuddled more frequently. So, now, there is almost no affection. She did hold my hand for a couple of minutes last night, and asked me to give her a peck on the lips once about a week ago. In between these small offerings of affection, there is ZERO flirting of any kind. There are fewer episodes of dysregulation directed at me... .  she will still get worked up about something that someone else in the family has done, but rarely at me, and when she does, I protect my boundaries, and she comes back around within a day or two. I don't seem to be painted black right now, and I don't seem to be painted white either, but she does pay me some compliments. Where is the good in this right now, you might wonder? Well, even though we don't spend a significant amount of time with each other (maybe 4 nighst out of the week), we have good conversation. We laugh. We joke with each other. She thanks me for things I do. It's nice. But, it REALLY does seem more like a casual friend relationship more than a marriage. I go to bed on my side of the bed, and she is on her side. Oh! Just remembered something... .  a few nights a week she will ask me to tickle her back. I usually do that for about 10 minutes when she asks, and I stop. She does not reciprocate in any meanigful way to show etnderness towards me... .  If I understand BPD, she must not feel any tenderness for me, otherwise she would, like she has when I seem to be painted white.

Here are some of the things I am struggling with:

1. I am wondering if I am taking this not initiating any physical contact to an extreme... .  Maybe she has finally figured out that she always has to make the first move for even a 20-second hand hold. Maybe that method I am using is making her feel like I don't want her, and so she is initiating physical contact with me less now? Should I reconsider, and go back to trying to initiate a hug every once in a while?

2. I'm starting to feel used, even for tickling her back for 10 minutes, because there is no significant reciprocation: No flirting, or sex, or, heck... .  I'd like to have MY back or arm tickled for a few minutes. Just because I'm a man doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to be touched like that. I mean, I can't help but wonder... .  would it even matter to her that I'm the one tickling her back, or would she enjoy it being done by anyone every bit as much? I don't ask her to tickle my arm or back... .  I sense that if I did, I would likely get a strange look from her, and if she did, it might be done half-heartedly for just a minute or two.

3. It's definitely MY stuff here, but I am feeling insecure about her being faithful to me. A part of me knows that her distance is a symptom of her BPD, but, another part of me also knows full well, that a married couple has to feel connected, at least in some way, in order to stay faithful. If she is bored with me, not excited by me, not physically attracted to me, then she may become attracted to someone else while things are like this. I'd be lying to you all and myself if I said that I NEVER think about having an affair. That may sound extreme, and it is, but I am being affected by this lack of affection. I doubt that I would ever come close though... .  I have to look at that guy in the mirror when I shave for the rest of my life, you know. 

4. This time of year seems to be a "slow" time of year, with less sex... .  picks up in frequency in the spring... .  not a big amount, but more consistently around 4 times a month. There is also more affaction it seems, but I'm comparing last year at this time when I was still in the process of changing, so, there were some periods of time when she had me painted white, and I rolled with it... .  I was on the roller coaster, and loving the highs. So, it's different from last winter, where we many not have had sex any more often, but there was at least a bit more affection on a consistent basis. Should I be concerned with this? Is it more to do with the season, or is it the state of our relationship that is causing this?

5. Sex, when she does initiate it, is most often after she has been drinking. She's not drunk enough to stumble (she gets that drunk on on very rare occasion... .  twice in the past 3 years, with both of those times over 2 years ago, when we were dating). I don't think we have had sex without her being at least moderately buzzed on alcohol in many months. I can't say exactly why this bothers me... .  well, yes I can... .  I feel like she is paying me some attention, but it's like she's not 100% with me... .  90%, maybe. Do I need to just get over being worried about only having sex with my wife after she has had several drinks? Makes me think she has to be intoxicated to sleep with me, and, yeah, that hurts my feelings... .  not as bad as it would have a year ago when we would still get enmeshed in cycles, but it does still hurt.


6. After sex, she used to say 'You felt good,' now it's more of a less personal, 'that felt good.' Am I splitting hairs here, or does it seem like she is making it less personal by her word choice? She doesn;t seem quite as distant during the act as I've read others describe, so, I feel fortunate in that regard, but I can't help it... .  this bothers me a little bit.

7. Discussing anything about my needs for intimacy or sex was a HUGE trigger for her. It, of course, started prior to her dx, so, we had some really bad arguments about sex in the past, no matter what approach I took when trying to discuss the topic with her. After learning some tools, I tried DEARMAN, hoping that I could explain to her how much I love her, and how I need to feel close to her just a little more often, even if it's not sex. Cuddling more would be nice. Knowing that old wounds to a person with BPD can usually feel every bit as intense as when the originally occurred, I have not addressed how I feel about this to her in a year now. How do you tell your SO that you have a need going unmet when you know it is very likely to trigger her... .  it might improve thinsg after a blow-up on her part for a few weeks, but, I assume that in 3 months we might be right back where we are now, so, I don;t know that I want to do any further damage without at least a decent chance that something can be changed on a sustaining basis. So, do I tell her that I feel neglected... .  that I miss her... .  that I have needs going unfulfilled? I don't think that she truly understands that it is a need, for one thing, based on past conversations, which is a problem in itself. She thinks that sex is 100% in the want category.

I seem to have trained myself to not express one of my critical needs in my r/s, which is for more affection and to feel like a husband, rather than a roommate or casual friend. I know that everything is about balance, and I'm struggling with how to achieve that right now. In significant ways, she seems to be doing better with this, based on the fact that she's not raging at me. I think she likes the space, but does she really? I know I have said a lot and asked a whole lot of questions, but I'm really stuck here, because I do accept her for the way she is... .  It may not sound like I do, but I do. At the same time though, I don't feel loved by her, or anyone, in a romantic way, and that is something that I crave for every few weeks. Of course, I'd like for it to be with my wife, but I'm not angry at her for not providing it. It's a predicament. I think tomorrow will be better... .  maybe a bad day every few weeks is just what it takes to sustain this... .  it might be a small price to pay. I don;t know.

[CodependentHusband]

Sorry this is so long-winded... .  I really need some advice from the seasoned pros, or anyone who has figured any of this out, or, heck, just some plain support might help me.   

Uggh! Okay... .  I was doing okay today... .  been doing okay for weeks, actually. It's just this feeling that comes over me every few weeks that starts driving me crazy. I know what is causing it, but I don't know what to do about it... .  The answer is probably for me to just keep my mind off of it, and keep myself busy, but, like I said, every few weeks I get this feeling I just can't shake... .  I'm getting worn down, it seems. I don't think it is any more intense this time as it has been in the past, and I've recovered within a day every time in the past, so, I know that this feeling I have will pass, but right this minute, I'm having a hard time with it.

Okay, there is peace in my house, way more peace than not nowadays, as many of you will already know... .  That's good... .  no doubt about it, but tonight I'm feeling really needy. It's been 2 weeks since my wife and I had any intimacy, and, for at least the last 3 months, intimacy = sex for the most part. As I have told you all before, I do not initiate ANY physical contact with my wife. The reason I don't is not because my wife will reject a hug or holding hands 100% (more like about 50% chance there). If I were to try initiating sex, my chances of getting rejected would be much higher, I'd bet about 90%, since I asked. I figured that out over a year ago, and quit even trying to initiate sex, because the rejection hurt so bad... .  now, after finding that not being rejected (because I don't try), I decided about 6 months ago to stop initiating any affection, hoping to get rid of those feelings of rejection when I only wanted to hold her hand.

Well, if my wife has ever noticed this about me... .  my never being the one to reach out first anymore, she hasn;t said a word to me about it. She did send me an email the other night when I was out that said, "NO WOMEN!" Made me think that she is insecure... .  Maybe the two weeks without sex is actually triggering some insecurity on her part? I don't know... .  and I know that I can't concentrate on her motivations... .  that's not going to get me anywhere productive.

What has happened as a result of my actions? Well, here is what it's like... .  We have sex anywhere from once a month to around 3 or 4 times a month on a good month. We did go 1 full month without sex about 4 months ago, but there was at least several nights where she wanted me to hold her, and we cuddled more frequently. So, now, there is almost no affection. She did hold my hand for a couple of minutes last night, and asked me to give her a peck on the lips once about a week ago. In between these small offerings of affection, there is ZERO flirting of any kind. There are fewer episodes of dysregulation directed at me... .  she will still get worked up about something that someone else in the family has done, but rarely at me, and when she does, I protect my boundaries, and she comes back around within a day or two. I don't seem to be painted black right now, and I don't seem to be painted white either, but she does pay me some compliments. Where is the good in this right now, you might wonder? Well, even though we don't spend a significant amount of time with each other (maybe 4 nighst out of the week), we have good conversation. We laugh. We joke with each other. She thanks me for things I do. It's nice. But, it REALLY does seem more like a casual friend relationship more than a marriage. I go to bed on my side of the bed, and she is on her side. Oh! Just remembered something... .  a few nights a week she will ask me to tickle her back. I usually do that for about 10 minutes when she asks, and I stop. She does not reciprocate in any meanigful way to show etnderness towards me... .  If I understand BPD, she must not feel any tenderness for me, otherwise she would, like she has when I seem to be painted white.

Here are some of the things I am struggling with:

1. I am wondering if I am taking this not initiating any physical contact to an extreme... .  Maybe she has finally figured out that she always has to make the first move for even a 20-second hand hold. Maybe that method I am using is making her feel like I don't want her, and so she is initiating physical contact with me less now? Should I reconsider, and go back to trying to initiate a hug every once in a while?

2. I'm starting to feel used, even for tickling her back for 10 minutes, because there is no significant reciprocation: No flirting, or sex, or, heck... .  I'd like to have MY back or arm tickled for a few minutes. Just because I'm a man doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to be touched like that. I mean, I can't help but wonder... .  would it even matter to her that I'm the one tickling her back, or would she enjoy it being done by anyone every bit as much? I don't ask her to tickle my arm or back... .  I sense that if I did, I would likely get a strange look from her, and if she did, it might be done half-heartedly for just a minute or two.

3. It's definitely MY stuff here, but I am feeling insecure about her being faithful to me. A part of me knows that her distance is a symptom of her BPD, but, another part of me also knows full well, that a married couple has to feel connected, at least in some way, in order to stay faithful. If she is bored with me, not excited by me, not physically attracted to me, then she may become attracted to someone else while things are like this. I'd be lying to you all and myself if I said that I NEVER think about having an affair. That may sound extreme, and it is, but I am being affected by this lack of affection. I doubt that I would ever come close though... .  I have to look at that guy in the mirror when I shave for the rest of my life, you know. 

4. This time of year seems to be a "slow" time of year, with less sex... .  picks up in frequency in the spring... .  not a big amount, but more consistently around 4 times a month. There is also more affaction it seems, but I'm comparing last year at this time when I was still in the process of changing, so, there were some periods of time when she had me painted white, and I rolled with it... .  I was on the roller coaster, and loving the highs. So, it's different from last winter, where we many not have had sex any more often, but there was at least a bit more affection on a consistent basis. Should I be concerned with this? Is it more to do with the season, or is it the state of our relationship that is causing this?

5. Sex, when she does initiate it, is most often after she has been drinking. She's not drunk enough to stumble (she gets that drunk on on very rare occasion... .  twice in the past 3 years, with both of those times over 2 years ago, when we were dating). I don't think we have had sex without her being at least moderately buzzed on alcohol in many months. I can't say exactly why this bothers me... .  well, yes I can... .  I feel like she is paying me some attention, but it's like she's not 100% with me... .  90%, maybe. Do I need to just get over being worried about only having sex with my wife after she has had several drinks? Makes me think she has to be intoxicated to sleep with me, and, yeah, that hurts my feelings... .  not as bad as it would have a year ago when we would still get enmeshed in cycles, but it does still hurt.


6. After sex, she used to say 'You felt good,' now it's more of a less personal, 'that felt good.' Am I splitting hairs here, or does it seem like she is making it less personal by her word choice? She doesn;t seem quite as distant during the act as I've read others describe, so, I feel fortunate in that regard, but I can't help it... .  this bothers me a little bit.

7. Discussing anything about my needs for intimacy or sex was a HUGE trigger for her. It, of course, started prior to her dx, so, we had some really bad arguments about sex in the past, no matter what approach I took when trying to discuss the topic with her. After learning some tools, I tried DEARMAN, hoping that I could explain to her how much I love her, and how I need to feel close to her just a little more often, even if it's not sex. Cuddling more would be nice. Knowing that old wounds to a person with BPD can usually feel every bit as intense as when the originally occurred, I have not addressed how I feel about this to her in a year now. How do you tell your SO that you have a need going unmet when you know it is very likely to trigger her... .  it might improve thinsg after a blow-up on her part for a few weeks, but, I assume that in 3 months we might be right back where we are now, so, I don;t know that I want to do any further damage without at least a decent chance that something can be changed on a sustaining basis. So, do I tell her that I feel neglected... .  that I miss her... .  that I have needs going unfulfilled? I don't think that she truly understands that it is a need, for one thing, based on past conversations, which is a problem in itself. She thinks that sex is 100% in the want category.

I seem to have trained myself to not express one of my critical needs in my r/s, which is for more affection and to feel like a husband, rather than a roommate or casual friend. I know that everything is about balance, and I'm struggling with how to achieve that right now. In significant ways, she seems to be doing better with this, based on the fact that she's not raging at me. I think she likes the space, but does she really? I know I have said a lot and asked a whole lot of questions, but I'm really stuck here, because I do accept her for the way she is... .  It may not sound like I do, but I do. At the same time though, I don't feel loved by her, or anyone, in a romantic way, and that is something that I crave for every few weeks. Of course, I'd like for it to be with my wife, but I'm not angry at her for not providing it. It's a predicament. I think tomorrow will be better... .  maybe a bad day every few weeks is just what it takes to sustain this... .  it might be a small price to pay. I don;t know.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[GreenMango]

Hi CDH ... .  I noticed you seem like a warm and fuzzy kind of guy.  This sounds really rough.

I don't normally post over here and wish I had some great advice.  I don't, yet I can say you sound like you are in a better place and better equipped to put your skills into action a bit.

I don't see anything wrong with expressing these needs, it's just adjusting your expectations that it will go over well.

If it doesn't go over well you seem to have the tools to handle that.  Maybe it's a good time to tackle the other problems in the relationship, like this one, slowly. 

You might have gone a bit overboard with the never initiating affection or sex, but I get it especially when your partner has those issues.  It's hard to gauge what's okay, where they are at.

You mentioned a couple of fears.  What's the biggest?  Maybe if you can get a handle on that then addressing the intimacy issue won't be as difficult.

Wishing you well.

[Lady31]

I don't normally get on this board either, but wanted to respond to this.

It is apparent you feel hurt and rejected.  I can appreciate what you are going through.  My H recently said he wanted a divorce (again) but even before that, it's been 3 months since we have had sex.  The sex started dropping off right around when we got married.

When it started slowing down:

The first year or two it was once every two weeks.  Then stretched to month/month & a half.  Then to months in between.

My H even has strange reactions when I touch him - his muscles twitch where it is that I touch him when we are just hanging around.  It shows me he is extremely uncomfortable with any kind of intimacy.

He was VERY promiscous before we were married.  (very attractive and smooth)  I think he is only comfortable in meaningless sex as long as there is no intimacy - or possibly that having that many partners damaged him in some way for a life long partner. 

He will literally stand there like a tree when I go to huge him (nothing in return), a lot of the time he will THROW my hand off of him or whatever if I am trying to show nonsexual affection and tell me how selfish I am and that that isn't comfortable for him or he doesn't like it! ?

I know most would probably argue this but I am 95% sure he is faithful - that's a whole different explaination.

I know how you feel and I am so sorry, it is very lonely and sad.

Is there a chance she was sexually abused?  On a side note - perhaps the alcohol helps her to loosen up enough if there is some issue there.

[Rockylove]

CoDe... .  I'm so sorry you're struggling with this right now.  This time of year seems to throw everyone I know a bit off~~including me! 

The whole issue of sex and intimacy has me completely baffled.  Just when I think I understand the concept, the rules change!  I had no idea what my bf's view of sex was other than the disjointed ramblings about it when he was raging~~which totally lumped me in a category of women that think they're so great in bed that they would be used for it.  It took over a year for me to finally figure out what he meant when he said a kiss is not just a kiss.  I couldn't use the word intimacy without him thinking that I was associating it with sex!  It took many many tiny conversations and a lot of trial and error before I felt I could begin to understand how to have the intimacy that I longed for in a way that would not trigger whatever negative feelings he has toward it~~he needed to know that the reason I was kissing him, touching or hugging was coming from a space of pure love... .  not lust (which in all honesty has always been the case for me with him, but I guess he didn't trust that to be true until recently)

You said that perhaps you may be taking the not initiating physical contact to an extreme... .  in my humble opinion~~yeah!  You've probably read more than one article on the research~~humans NEED physical contact!  When they don't have it, they withdraw emotionally.  Granted, there are circumstances where abuse has created a barrier to the desire for physical touch and I don't know if that is the case with your wife or not.  It sounds like you've both created a situation where neither one of you feels comfortable initiating a loving touch so you've both withdrawn.  Perhaps your thoughts of her having to be intoxicated to sleep with you have influenced her withdrawal in a way~~she may sense your displeasure.  I know that I would cringe when my ex-husband would come to bed drunk and groping me... .  I didn't want to have ANY physical contact with him and shut off the emotions~~it didn't help him come to bed any more sober though! 

I hope you can find a reasonable balance of intimacy... .  I think it's important






 

[CodependentHusband]

Thanks all. Good points... .  I think I've gone too far... .  I'm consciously withholding affection from her. I guess I thought that if I did that it would further reinforce the fact that she is in full control of our physical contact. I control the money, she controls the physical contact is the way I've thought about it in the past... .  Creating some kind of balance in power in the r/s.

I should be thankful, things REALLY are better in oh so many ways when I think back to a year ago. I guess it's human to yearn for more. I think I just fear that we are drifting further and further away with every passing month.

[Wishful thinking]

Hi Codependant

Its a difficult one. I cant offer any advice but i can empathize with you cos im going thru the very same thing.

Anything initiated from my side gets rejected for various reasons. Talking about it doesnt seem to help either.

Maybe its their way of feeling a sense of control.

[CodependentHusband]

Maybe its their way of feeling a sense of control.

Thanks. I know that you are right about this. It's pretty clear to me that she needs to feel in control. I think there may be some history of sexual abuse, and my heart breaks for her about that. So, that's a big reason I really don't have any resentment over this. It's just so lonely when these days come up every few weeks.

[GreenMango]

Now my experience was typical relationship advice in a relationship like this could totally backfire... .  and sometimes there was some good pieces buried in it but how weird is this timing?

I ran across this when I was posting another link from someone here and thought of you... .  take as much or as little or none but I thought there were a few good kernels in here.  Maybe you want to check out the book this is from?  It may help with ideas on how to approach this slowly and safely.

Lots of Nonsexual Touching Is the Key to a Successful Long-Term Relationship

by Katie Halper

Full disclaimer. I'm single. So I shouldn't exactly be doling out relationship advice. Then again, maybe I should be, because I have an objective distance from the subject. Luckily, Jane E. Brody, the Personal Health columnist for The New York Times has some advice to share in an article called "That Loving Feeling Takes a Lot of Work." Sounds like a downer, especially for lazy people who don't like to work. But, according to Brody, the work is doable and could save many a relationship and marriage.

We have all heard that passion doesn't last forever. As Brody puts it,

"the feelings that prompt people to forget all their troubles and fly down the street with wings on their feet — does not last very long, and cannot if lovers are ever to get anything done."

That's true. I mean, who hasn't blown off some chore or perhaps major responsibility because at that very moment they don't see nothing wrong with a little bump and grind? What surprised me was that the non-passionate love part doesn't die out, per se, but becomes insufficient to sustain a happy relationship. Studies show that "the happiness boost that occurs with marriage lasts only about two years, after which people revert to their former levels of happiness — or unhappiness."

Who knew? And why is that?

The natural human tendency to become "habituated" to positive circumstances — to get so used to things that make us feel good that they no longer do — can be the death knell of marital happiness. Psychologists call it "hedonic adaptation": things that thrill us tend to be short-lived.

In other words, we start taking a good thing for granted. It's like tolerance for an addictive substance. I'm about to share something with you, readers. I'm addicted to coffee. When I started drinking coffee it gave me a jolt. It really made me feel something. Now, that same amount just makes me feel not totally exhausted. If I want that jolt, I need to increase my intake of coffee. Luckily, you can add jolts of happiness into your relationship without ruining your stomach lining.

Enter Sonya Lyubomirsky, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Riverside, and author of "The Myths of Happiness," who offers steps for you to fight against the habituation that destroys relationships.

Here are the steps:

Appreciation: remind yourself of what you appreciate about your partner. (If you can't figure out what you appreciate about your partner, s/he's probably not the one for you anyway.)

Variety: try to spice up the relationship by doing new things. Keep your relationship"fresh, meaningful and positive." (I'm not sure what exactly that means or how to do that, but you'll figure it out.)

Support your partner's values, goals and dreams: Brody gives the example of supporting her husband whose "passion lay in writing for the musical theater. When his day job moved to a different city, I suggested that rather than looking for a new one, he pursue his dream. It never became monetarily rewarding, but his vocation fulfilled him and thrilled me. He left a legacy of marvelous lyrics for more than a dozen shows." (Hopefully, this works with non-musical theater based dreams as well.)

Nonsexual physical touch: Lyubomirsky encourages "increasing the amount of physical contact in your relationship by a set amount each week... .  Introducing more (nonsexual) touching and affection on a daily basis will go a long way in rekindling the warmth and tenderness." (But do it gradually, or else you'll literally never stop touching your partner. And then you won't have any time for sex.)

Nice words: Brody writes that, ":)r. Lyubomirsky reports that happily married couples average five positive verbal and emotional expressions toward one another for every negative expression, but 'very unhappy couples display ratios of less than one to one'." [edited for language]

Journaling: keep a journal of the good interactions and the bad interactions between you and your partner. Try to increase the ratio of good to bad interactions. (If you don't succeed in creating more positive interactions, you can always transition from diary writing to fiction writing.)

That Loving Feeling Takes a Lot of Work [NYT]

image via Strawberry Mood/Shutterstock

[cartman1]

Hi CodependentHusband,

This really is the million dollar question. This is the one that has been turning over and over in my noodle. I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately and I see it like this. My uBPDw wasn't shown much affection at all during her childhood and is extremely sensitive to rejection and like your Wife doesn't really show affection. I think this is because they are petrified of rejection. Since I've been working on the relationship I've noticed she will smack my bottom or call me a silly name and I think back to the old days and it hit me. She used to call me names and I used to call her silly names back then she would initiate the play fighting and I used to play fight with her, then she would run to the bedroom and I'd chase her. Then she would initiate. Just wondering if there was any behaviour in your wife that could be a sign of affection?

My wife likes being tickled but this never leads anywhere and I'm guessing she may just feel lonely and if I try to initiate then I think she might feel vulnerable and push me away which can be frustrating to say the least! I'd suggest thinking if there was any other signs of affection she shows when she's in a good mood and just try and enjoy that affection and see where it leads and remember the saying slowly, slowly catch a monkey. It may take time

[CodependentHusband]

Thanks, GM! I'm going to give that a try.

Thanks, cartman!

   Sounds like your wife is similar to mine. Her father isn't very affectionate, and never really has been. On top of that, she was raised to be very conservative about sex, which is fine, but she seems to think that all of that repression applies to married couples as well. It could be that there are some painful memories in her past as well that further contribute to the issue.

  Yes, my wife used to call me names... .  The names alternated, based on her mood at the particular time, and were rather extreme from one day to the other, as I'm sure you can imagine!  . Seriously though... .  She only uses terms of endearment lately when she has just asked me for a favor. Now, I want to be clear here... .  We talk pleasantly, joke around, go to dinner together, and watch movies at home a few nights out of the week. So, it's not as if there is no positive interaction. There is... .  it's just that there is almost no physical contact, and it really seems more like I'm in the "friend zone" with her, more than her husband.

Yesterday I broke down and texted her later in the morning.

Me: "I'm feeling needy today. I'm okay, but I hate it when this happens."

dBPDw: "Why?"

Me: ":)on't know what causes it. Wish I did." (I lied, of course, but I'm trying to keep the focus away from anything that will make her blame herself and feel shame)

dBPDw: "Ok. Don't do this all day texting. I'm busy at work."

Me: "I won't bug you today. I promise."

dBPDw: "Italian tonight?" (meaning for me to take her out to dinner)

Me: "Yes. Sounds good to me."


When I got home from work, she was very standoffish... .  arms crossed, and giving me very short answers... .  I thought... .  Okay, Well, I'm not going to make this worse. I kept quiet on the drive to the restaurant. Once we got there, she opened up a little, and we had pretty good, light conversation. A laugh or two... .  It was nice.

When we got home, both SD's were home from having dinner with their father. We spoke to them for a little while, and my wife did her usual thing... .  went to the bedroom and watched TV. I went to finish up a few things for work. When I came to bed later, she was already half asleep, and was grumpy because I was "inconsiderate" for rustling around in the bed to get ready to sleep. As usual, I didn't say anything about that (it not being appropriate to apologize when I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't jump up and down on the bed or turn on a bunch of lights, after all. ). This morning she's sent a few good-natured texts.

I don't know... .  I think that this is probably just like everything that came before in our r/s... .  it's a cycle, and she will come back around like she always has. Things aren't all "doom and gloom" or high drama, but, like GM's post says... .  I'm missing that littel spark every once in a while... .  or, maybe the periods of time in between are longer than I would prefer. I'd just like to get out of this "friend zone" with my wife a little more more often, if that makes any sense. If not that, I think it would make me feel a little better if she would at least seem to care or try to cheer me up in the slightest little bit when I tell her I'm feeling needy. I know that she isn't capable of doing that when she is dysregulated, but when things seem to be going very well on all other fronts like they are now, I'm a little confused as to why she would seem to not care about how I feel when she's not stressed out or overwhelmed. It's like I need to learn how to seduce my wife or something, if that is even possible.

[mitchell16]

I wish I could tell you how to handle it. BUt I really dont know I have ran into the same things with mine. Most of the time she had no problem in the sex department but I did notice at time she would with hold and otehr emotions and almost a form of torture. I once asked her how come she stopped tellimg me she loved. It has been our routine. When we hang up the phone or go to bed to tell each other we love each other. Now if she didnt say it a few times no big deal. I mean she in a hurry or whatever. but it started going on for ahwile and I asked why she had stopped. Her answer, becasue you want me to say it so bad. I was just amazed. I mean why would you with hold something like that on purpose. That showed me that she was doing it on purpose. for what reason I dont know. So i feel for you and hope you can make it better but you where no alone I found very similar things. it was like she just wanted to punish me.

[CodependentHusband]

Hmmm. Yes. That reminds me of something along similar lines that my wife told me in a 'moment of clarity.' She said that she wanted me to hurt really bad because she hurt so bad.

Who knows... .  I'm feeling better today anyway, despite her limited affection for me. It could well be too that I just need to try touching her more. I know in my mind that everything is about balance. Maybe I have to give just a little more to get a little more back from her. I think I can do that.

[cartman1]

Your experiences are uncanny! Not only does your Wife sound like mine but you sound a little like I do at times. I hate the 'friend zone' as you describe it. The thing bugging me is since I've been putting loads of effort in to the relationship my wife has been getting compliments in work on how much more bubbly she is while I seem to be getting 'friend zone' conversations at home, frustrating to say the least!

One thing I've noticed though is she has started telling me things she would like to do in the future. I'm seeing this as a good thing. Have you found any ways to bridge the gap when she's distant?

[CodependentHusband]

Yeah... .  that's funny you mention that. My wife will get on Facebook and say things like, "Today was pretty rough, but going out to a nice dinner with CDH and seeing my girls at home afterwards really brightened my day." Which, I won't take any of that away from her... .  I had a nice time at dinner. I enjoyed myself and her company very much, at least from the moment that we entered the restaurant and she started talking, but, you know, it just leads others into thinking that eveything else is as it should be. It's almost comical.

You know, if the new cycle goes from "friend zone" to some romance every once in a while, that's a big improvement over intense rage and intense closeness. I think that my real fear here is that if I don't do something, we're going to end up in a sexless marriage. I can't ignore the trend in that direction. I'd be blind to not see it. We've come so far in just 3 years (well, I have anyway)... .  too far to accept things exactly as they are without trying to further build on the success of getting where we are now.

As for filling the gaps. I like to listen to music, read books, watch movies... .  and lately, I've been writing a lot. Not sure if I'm going to get anything finished to actually publish, but i hope to.

[elemental]

It strikes me that she knows exactly what she is doing.

She knows why you are upset and needy and you expressed this and she coldly re-directed and when you next saw her in person, she made sure to physically repell you by the way she was standing, etc.

In terms of what you can do...

You said in the past that she had been hooking up online with an old family friend.  Are you sure this sort of thing is truely in the past.

You said probably it looked like you had withdrawn affection.

What do you do to show affection that doesn't include any physical action to touch her, which she appears to be very controlling about?

How does she like to have affection? I remember reading that people FEEL loved in very personal ways, for example some people feel best loved when they get gifts, some people feel loved when you spend time with them, or they like lots of affection verbally,  and so on.

I don't blame you for not wanting to put yourself out there for her. When I was married, my ex husband wouldn't initiate, and when he did he would abruptly laugh and push me away and walk off. Any effort I made in the direction turned in to ZERO because I wasn't up for the humiliation.

[laelle]

I dunno intimacy brings about fear of abandonment.  When I really get close to someone I find reasons (unconciously) to get angry or displeased with them because the fear of losing someone who I really connect with is soo painful. I fear sooner or later I will screw it up.  Its exposes my raw self, no masks, no ego, no defense mechanisms. Its a very scary thing.

There are alot of confusing emotions that occur when allowing yourself to be exposed.  If it were just sex, thats no big deal, you can wear your mask to that, but when its an emotional relationship its difficult to allow yourself to just let it be and not worry about it.

Alot of BPD's think they are dirty inside.  Bad people and they dont deserve to be loved and they dont want to hurt the other person because they know they cant be what they are suppose to be.  Being friends is a way to keep that person in their lives without having to open up and expose all that raw fear and loathing of themselves.  I think anyway.  In a way I feel I am doing that person a favor because I would just let them down in the end.

[CodependentHusband]

elemental,

   I don't doubt that some of this is being done on a conscious level by her, at least on the surface. I believe that a pwBPD does some hurtful things on a conscious level, but there is a driver for that action at the core wound that is at the root of the problem.

  As for the possibility of her having some kind of emotional affair, I guess it is possible, and I wouldn't know. The last time that happened though, she was pushing me away... .  had me painted pitch black. So, maybe there really is somebody else in her life, or at least in her thoughts.

 You know, I'm not 100% sure what makes her feel loved, but I think that she appreciates all of the errand running I do (which I don't mind). I bought her some new light fixtures she wanted last night which I am installing this weekend.

 As for affection, she seems to enjoy me tickling her back, but almost never reciprocates, so, I'm not really sure it means the same thing to her that it would for anyone else, beyond the tactile sensation. I don't get the feeling it makes an impact on her at an emotional level for me to do that... .  it doesn't seem to make her feel closer to me.

 When I was rejected by her, it's not done with a laugh, but it is with a kind of mean-spirited irritation. That has been quite some time ago, of course, since I no longer try, but I would expect the same results if I were to try again now.

  I chatted with her briefly at lunch just to see how her day is going... .  positive experience for both of us, I think. I sent her a text message later in the afternoon:

Me: "I miss being really close to you today. You mean more to me than I show you lately."

dBPDw: "I love you too honey."

Me: " "

  So, yeah, I think you are right. I think I'm communicating with her clearly and in a non-threatening way. I don't think for a minute that she doesn't know that I am asking for more affection from her. Guess there isn't anything more I can do.

[elemental]

oh well, I was just tossing out ideas.

I realized with my guy, a lot of the success I get, even with negative stuff how I am feeling is like what you did today:

yesterday you say you are needy and bummed= negative response from her

you put a positive spin on it today, pretty much saying same thing underneath it all:


hey I am glad to see you, I missed you! = positive response from her.


One comes across as pain and low and maybe tiggers off feelings of blame and the other comes across as you were upbeat, doing your things and you were thinking of her and a positive light and wanted to see her because you like her etc.

no blame to be assigned because you are not "depressed" and it's not her fault.

I hope that made sense, cause I seem to be batting zero today 

[CodependentHusband]

I dunno intimacy brings about fear of abandonment.  When I really get close to someone I find reasons (unconciously) to get angry or displeased with them because the fear of losing someone who I really connect with is soo painful. I fear sooner or later I will screw it up.  Its exposes my raw self, no masks, no ego, no defense mechanisms. Its a very scary thing.

Yes. She definitely gets engulfment fears the next day pretty consistently. I've found that if I give her a lot of space the day after we are really close, it seems to help; otherwise, she finds something to rage about or devalue me over. I thought that using that approach was helping, in that it was keeping things as positive as they could be, but I'm wondering if I'm just reinforcing or enabling her to simply not even try being close to me at all. I've stopped enabling all kinds of behaviors to good effect within the past year. I don't want to pretend that it's okay to just be in the "friend zone" for weeks on end, lest she think that it's okay to be that way 100% of the time.

[laelle]

For me, the most important thing is that at the end of the day the person in my life accepts me for who I am, damaged and all.  If they actually liked me with all my quirks that would be even better.    I think being ok with who you are and who she is is the key.  There is obviously tension and fear concerning sex.  Fear of rejection is enough not to even try.  I would just say  "Hey, wanna go mess around?" and give her your most charming smile.  If she says yes, great... .  if not, dont take it personally and say... .  Ok, but im gonna ask you again soon and give her that smile again.

[tuum est61]

CDH,  

Its been awhile since we've commented on each others threads.   You've got an excellent and topical thread going here.  

I've made lots of progress in our relationship but the intimacy - sexual and otherwise - is still not at an acceptable level.

I do still try to initiate sex because my W straight out told me that she "never" will initiate sex.   The best she can do is a vague reference to going to "lie down" in the bedroom and while that used to mean sex during the early stages of our relationship, it only rarely means she actually is using it as a euphemism for sex.  

I am rejected 9 times out of 10.  A few days ago, I commented that we hadn't had sex for over 2 weeks.  She said that it hadn't been that long and she was going to put up a calendar and start "marking it down."  I guess she was joking because I put up a calendar in my closet and only got a derisive sigh and a rude comment about it.  

My W tells me she was sexually assaulted at least once when she was younger - although she changes the details about whether he actually fully raped her or not.  At any rate, the fellow that did it was not turned in or caught but experienced the karma of dying in a car crash a few months later.  I do think it is a major factor for her.  She recently told me that she would not touch me sexually because of this man telling her to do so.  I've come to believe that she has probably had to fend off men so strongly during her life - she is very attractive - and that it is just a very strongly held defense mechanism.

I hold out hope for greater intimacy, including sex, but am not holding my breath.   We are becoming more intimate in non sexual ways and though infrequent, we both enjoy sexual intimacy with each other very much. When she does finally "decide" that she wants to, it seems to be a a nearly spirtual event for her (or am I just that good?   )

The linked post on the role of non-sexual intimacy fits my MO and line of thinking at this point.  I am trying to increase the amount of that wherever I can, thinking it may take us in the right direction.  

PS: Laelle and elemental have basically just advised us NOT to take the "needy" approach.  My W is definitely turned off by any hint of neediness.  I am going to switch to the "devil may care" and charm approach that laelle espoused.  

[CodependentHusband]

Yep. I've tried the fun loving approach. I think I might just need to adjust my own withholding of affection and give it a rest with putting any pressure on her. I feel a little hypocritical when I think about it some more.


I do love her a lot, and I do enjoy our friendship. I already knew that her ability to meet all of my needs wasn't possible on a consistent basis. This may well just be an extension of that. I need to grow a little more myself, and just give it some time.

[20years]

I walked down that highway what a long journey ... .  gave it wayyyy too much time

played him at his own game because he knew exactly what he was doing

I withheld affection well I wasn't gettin any so why bother giving it... .  so I asked him to sleep in another bedroom... .  

Don't you miss me I asked... .  it was more than obvious he didn't

[LetItBe]

Yes. She definitely gets engulfment fears the next day pretty consistently. I've found that if I give her a lot of space the day after we are really close, it seems to help

Same experience with my BPDex... .   

And, I, too, feel vulnerable after intimacy, especially in the beginning of a RS, so his distancing himself the next day (or more) was difficult.  I learned through my next RS that I'm better at not taking things personally now and managing my own insecurities through meditation, etc.

[CodependentHusband]

I am rejected 9 times out of 10.  A few days ago, I commented that we hadn't had sex for over 2 weeks.  She said that it hadn't been that long and she was going to put up a calendar and start "marking it down."  I guess she was joking because I put up a calendar in my closet and only got a derisive sigh and a rude comment about it.  

tuum,

    Yes. It has been a while! Hope you've been doing well. It appears that I was responding to you post, when in fact I was responding to the previous post. You make a lot of good points... .  We discussed the calendar thing on time last year... .  My wife had a similar response to yours, but I thought that she was maybe 30% on board with the idea at first... .  

   You know, like I said... .  I'm sharing some pain here with you guys, and I know in my heart that I'm really moving the goal line in my r/s... .  I don't know if that is a good thing or not... .  Just want to make things as good as they can be. I'm actually feeling pretty good about things, despite my wife's responses... .  I KNOW her, and I KNOW that she knows that I am telling her what I need/want. She will come around, just like she has in the past... .  there difference is that there won't be many rages in between those times when she does... .  She's never been a huge flirt, except for the idealization phase. I know that won;t come back, and I don't even really think about it until it's been three weeks without some kind of meaningful intimacy. At least I'm to a point that I'm working on dealing with one of the core features of the illness (as it is manifest in a pwBPD who also possibly has a history of sexual abuse).

   I don't think I could do what you do though... .  I can't be rejected 90% of the time... .  Just was too hard on my self esteem. Funny... .  By not trying, even though I know my batting average would probably be about the same, it just doesn;t affect me the same way... .  

[CodependentHusband]

I withheld affection well I wasn't gettin any so why bother giving it... .  so I asked him to sleep in another bedroom... .  

Don't you miss me I asked... .  it was more than obvious he didn't

You know... .  I need to be honest here... .  I don;t withhold affection because I'm trying to shape her behavior... .  I did that prior to last year. My motivation is to not feel the rejection when she doesn't want to hold my hand or hug. It's weird, but it works... .  I think I am reconsidering this now though. I think I have to be the one to reach out consistently in at least some kind of way.

[CodependentHusband]

Yes. She definitely gets engulfment fears the next day pretty consistently. I've found that if I give her a lot of space the day after we are really close, it seems to help

Same experience with my BPDex... .   

And, I, too, feel vulnerable after intimacy, especially in the beginning of a RS, so his distancing himself the next day (or more) was difficult.  I learned through my next RS that I'm better at not taking things personally now and managing my own insecurities through meditation, etc.

Yes, and she will often try to start a fight immeditely following intimacy too... .  I've done much better at helping to stem that too, either by changing the subject, validation, or protecting my boundaries (haven't had to do that very often, in this particular situation, thank goodness).

[laelle]

A Calendar?  OMG!    Nope, if you put me on a calendar you would NEVER be gettin any. 

When I suggested that you ask her if she wants to fool around with a light attitude its not really so she will say "yeah", although I hope it does, but when she says no and tell you ok, smile, and "I'll be back", It validates that you want her now, you will want her tomorrow, and that you wont stop wanting her without triggering her feelings of engulfment. She will learn its ok to say no without you being hurt by it. 

I know that when I hurt someone I really take it hard.  I internally flog myself.  If she knows she hurts you by saying no, she will probably hate herself for it, but she cant help that she feels the way she does.  Who wants to have sex while insulting and beating yourself up?

I get in the mood for sex when my partner shows me that he cares about the things that are important to me.  When I am appreciated and cherished. I think cherished is another word for radical acceptance.     

[GreenMango]

A Calendar?  OMG!    Nope, if you put me on a calendar you would NEVER be gettin any. 

... .  

I get in the mood for sex when my partner shows me that he cares about the things that are important to me.  When I am appreciated and cherished. I think cherished is another word for radical acceptance.     

I agree that Calendar would erk me and you wouldn't be getting any.

I'm not saying you guys aren't sensitive to your wife's needs or considerate.  Maybe this a male/female thing too.

It's not so much the neediness for me that is a turn off ... .  it's when it's packaged with whininess, sulking, or resentment.  Because sometimes, I noticed some men, struggle with this and can get pissy.  Sometimes it's an off day, long day, stressful day.

Maybe throw a positive spin on the need, because we all have em, like "I like when you hold my hand" or "It makes me feel good snuggling with you".  It's not so, you don't do this or that.  And maybe working in, if she's worried everytime you touch her it's pressure for sex, that touching doesn't always mean sex.

Not saying you guys do any of this ... .  just throwing it out there.

[laelle]

I never thought about this, but GreenMango brought it up and its VERY true.  If you only touch your partner when you want sex, she will begin to think of sex as the giving of a demand instead of an act of intimacy. I love it when my boyfriend always grabs my hand when we leave the house or keeps a watch out for would be pick pockets.  I love the way he takes care of me that way. 

[Rockylove]

I really get lost when it comes to matters of sex and BPD.  I didn't know how to respond to him at all!  He rejected my advances at times and made some really rude remarks.  It did sting my ego a bit, but I figured he was just insecure (he had a prescription for Viagra or something similar) and when I let it go and let him know that it wasn't about the act of "sex" for me, he relaxed.  It was still a bit of a struggle for the 1st year, but I didn't push it and let him initiate.  I spent a lot of time cuddling and showing other gestures of affection, but not actually requesting SEX.  It worked in my favor to some extent.  He wanted to make sure I was putting LOVE behind the act and I do... .  he seems to want to separate lust (his stupid internet slutlings) from loving (his relationship with me)  I don't get that part of it at all... .  and if anyone has a theory, I'm willing to listen. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[CodependentHusband]

Good point, ladies. Yep... .  The calendar thing is something I've seen mentioned as a tip for some couples to try... .  More of a checkbox for, 'yes... Okay, we've tried everything.'

Really good point about touch = sex. I certainly don't feel that way, but I guess my wife could have that association. Its ironic though, because that non-sexual touch is more of a problem than the lack of sex for me. Sure, I'd love to have more sex, but really, if the frequency stayed the same, and there was more touching in between, that would be awesome. One thing too is that she asks me to do the majority of touching. When she does let me hold her, she rarely holds me at the same time. That might sound a little silly, but when I have my arms around her, it would be better for me if she had just one arm drapes over me too, instead of both of her arms pulled in to herself. I've told her gently that I like that when she does, and on the rare event that she does, I've told her how much I like it.

[laelle]

I think the calendar might and I mean a big might help if you are a couple who just have trouble finding time due to family, stress and work.

If I had intimacy issues I would see them on that calendar and it would hurt.  It would expose them and make me feel like a failure.

[itsnotmyfaultanymore]

I have been watching this thread very closely... .  As it is close to my heart... .  

As things have started to improve for me over the past 4 to 6 months (by taking care of myself, seeing a T, refusing to argue or JADE and praticing validation) - I can see things are changing, for the worse for my pwBPD (this may be the "it gets worse before it gets better" thing?).

To the point of this tread however - I, like most others it would seem, would initiate 95% to 99.9% of ALL forms of affection over the past 3-4 years as things have spiralled out of control. Prior to this very long, very trying period (we have been in our r/s for 20 years), I was still the one initiating 7 or 8 times of of 10.

This goes for all forms of affection, the peck on the check before bed, hand holding... .  all the way to sex.

And, it would seem like most of you, I get rejected often... .  And this has been VERY hard on my ego.

Over the past several months, as I work VERY hard on myself, I can see a rather dramatic change in her (not a good change as I mentioned) - in the past month or so the "peck on the cheek" has, for example, become a trigger. I could see her eye's change as I would approach her from a "normal" person to the look of "anger/hate/despair".

I believe for my r/s it has come to one simple (as simple as it gets for a r/s with a pwBPD anyway) thing - CONTROL.

My uBPDw has been controling almost EVERY interaction between us for almost 20 years. And now she see's she cannot, or is not any more, in control of "my" emotions she has "upped the ante" by controlling (more than she had in the past) the affection within the r/s.

I, like codependantH had mentioned early in this thread, have "backed" away. It has been 6 weeks (yes... .  thats right... .  don't complain about 2 weeks... .  ) since we have had sex - simply because I have not initiated. And now it has been just a little more than 1 week since I have stopped the "peck on the cheek" (I can't help but see the pain in her eyes).

So, it would seem to me that I have a very similar problem, codependantH.

Do I allow her this control?

Or, does allowing her to control our affection continue the cycle of codependence and dysfunction?

Or, does my withholding my affections continue this cycle?

Very confusing... .  

[20years]

Hi Codep how are you feeling today bless you... .  you stated that your motivation is not to feel rejection. With respect that is easier said than done for a non. We havn't got BPD.  It became fundamentally opressive for me to repress wanting to reach out and give my love and affection.  

To wait for him to decide what form of affection I was to be given and when became absolutely intolerable. I just withered away and died... .  

[CodependentHusband]

itsnotmyfaulta,

   I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. A little over a month is the longest we've gone in between, and, you are very right when you say it can get much worse... .  no doubt about that. In fact, that is what I am fearful of, so, I want to make sure I am doing what I can on my side of the r/s. To give you a little background, I've been working the tools for a little over a year now, and I've been with my dBPDw for about 3 years. She used to have some intense rage episodes directed at me on a regular basis. Through the use of tools, that aspect, which was the most troubling and damaging to the r/s, has been pretty well under control for quite a while now. With having so much improvement in our day to day lives, the majority of our interactions are much more positive than they used to be before last year. I used to take the rejections for affection VERY hard, and it did impact my self-esteem. I honestly am at a place when it no longer impacts my self esteem, but, as fate would have it, as soon as we clear one hurdle, another one pops back up... .  it's about continual improvement, I guess. What's going on with me now is that I don't expect her to necessarily do anything; however, I do not feel loved during times like this. I know that might sound like I am splitting hairs here, but it is a little different type of hurt. Luckily, it is nowhere near as intense as the pain I felt when my self esteem was being impacted. Now sometimes I feel like an unloved, confident guy, if that makes any sense.

   I think that you are right about the control thing... .  I think that my pulling back for quite a while has made my wife feel more in control of our interaction, from simple hand holding, all the way up to sex. She's not much for kissing very often, but when she stopped giving me those little pecks on the cheek, holding hands, or anything like that, but we also got along so much better in every other dimension of the relationship, that kind of leaves me confused. I think I am just going to start being a little more proactive in touching her more often, as was suggested. It's all about finding just the right balance, I think.

   I hope that things get better for you soon too, and that you are able to find something that is going to help your r/s as well. This is a difficult journey, but I wouldn't have it any other way. She is worth it.



20years,

   I really am feeling MUCH better today. Looking forward to the weekend. My daughter is with us this weekend, and hopefully me, dBPDw, D8, SD13, and SD15 will find something fun to do as a family.

[real lady]

Hi CodepH; I am sorry to hear that you are facing the dreaded BPD rejection; it hurts so badly. 

As far as my uBPDso goes, he has not initiated physical contact for several months. I stopped "reaching out" and hugging him when I "felt like it"; not necessarily to "get some back" but he was not open to it so I STOPPED. I don't know if that is a good thing or not... .  it doesn't give him the reminder that I am "here"... .  I stopped saying the expected "I love you" at the end of a conversation as to show him that it is HIS CHOICE to SAY he loves me but shows me NO physical attention. He still calls me "hon" when it is ok for him but other than that, there is no physical or verbal "attention" or sweetness going on and it hurts but I have radically accepted that HE WILL COME TO ME when and IF he wants MY attention. Until then, we exists quite separately.

I have moved to the "undecided" (because of detachment) but I am "staying" with him in his household for now... .  writing a song about it that I might record and post for all who "be so close but feel so far away" from their pwBPD... .  it is heartbreaking to LOVE and not have it reciprocated... .  

I think that this is the hardest part of loving a BPD for me... .  

[LetItBe]

I am happy to hear you're feeling better today, CH!  I hope you have a wonderful weekend with your family.

I like what you said about balance.  I hope you two find just the right balance together. 

[CodependentHusband]

NonGF,

   Thanks! I hope so. I think things are moving in the right direction as a whole.

RL,

   Yes. I saw that you had moved over to "Undecided." I don't blame you one bit. You've put up with far more than you should have as it is. This situation is tough for a non. We all have so many of the same struggles. That's why it's so great to share here. Thanks for the well wishes, and I hops that things improve for you too... .  I know they will improve for you, no matter what you do. You've worked hard and come a long way. 

[real lady]

RL,

   Thanks for the well wishes, and I hops that things improve for you too... .  I know they will improve for you, no matter what you do. You've worked hard and come a long way. 

Thanks CodepH... .   and too you too.