What do you think 'detachment' is?

[vivekananda]

OK, I’m at another Folk Festival and the thoughts are swirling about my head. I am working on seeing how the techniques I know fit with the concepts I am developing an understanding of, and my own personality traits, practices and behaviours. Ultimately here, I want to explore the concept I know as ‘detachment’.



Techniques: boundaries, validation, critical reflection/self reflection, positive self talk.

Concepts: mindfulness in its three components: acceptance, detachment and being ‘open to the universe’ (note, my choice of words to describe what others can call something else)

Myself: working on changing my patterns of thinking and my behaviours to embrace happiness regardless of what happens to me, dh, dd and anyone, anything.

It seems to me that the more I delve into a concept, the more I practice a technique, the greater I understand and the more these things all link in together.

So, what do I think detachment is? It is not separating or isolating myself from problems or people. It is not going n/c. It is not disassociating in any way. Being detached means being involved. Being detached means recognising my own emotional needs and meeting them for myself. The hardest part of this for me has been ‘letting go of ego’. But first I will digress a little. (sorry I am verbose…)

Years ago I read a Psychology book called “How to deal with Difficult People” (I think that was it…). The book was wonderful, I read it so I could learn about my older sis – BPD. I didn’t learn about BPD but I did learn about narcissism and I thought that was her issue. More importantly I learned about myself. I recognised my high anxiety and how that made me a difficult person. This book had strategies to adopt to work with difficult people. To ease an anxious person, they need reassurance that they are safe. I began to recognise when I began to feel anxiety levels rising and I would tell myself that I was safe, I was ok, nothing was going to hurt me. And this worked. I had begun to identify an emotional need and how to meet it.

The next big step was to begin to ‘let go of ego’. My paradigm shift occurred in 2008 when I was working in a highly stressful situation with a friends and colleague. She was lashing out and making my life so difficult. We were teaching together (in a 3rd world country where the population was suffering post traumatic stress and the evidence of this was everywhere). I learnt to tell myself not just that I was ok, but that my friend’s stress was not about me, and that I shouldn’t take it personally. I learnt that I had to keep my eyes on my own goals and to work with her, to accept her and the situation and to keep my head level and myself calm. So, when the barbs were hurled in my direction, I would tell myself to let go of my ego, remember why I was there and deal with it calmly and positively. At the end of that 3 mths I was a wreck, deeply saddened by my friend’s behaviour, but I was sane and the program had been highly successful. Since then I have used that concept of letting go of ego to remind myself to detach from the turmoil of a situation and keep my eyes on the main objective. It feels very different to acceptance – but it is of course interrelated.

So, detachment for me, is about not allowing another’s maladjusted attempts to have their emotional needs met to deter me from what I know is the right thing to do. I maintain my integrity (usually….) by identifying my emotional needs and work on meeting them, and recognising that it is not someone else’s job to do this.

There is more to this idea, but I still have thoughts swirling about in my head and I am trying to grasp them. Can you help me? What do you think?

Cheers,

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Good topic Vivek  



not personalizing projection

empathy vs enmeshment

advocating vs enabling

independant vs codependant

When I do not personalize projection (accept someone else's thoughts, feelings, actions are about me) I am able to empathize (connect emotionally without adopting their beliefs), advocate (support and not rescue), remain independant (be emotionally healthy through boundaries) instead of codependant (personalizing, enmeshed, enabling).

Detachment is a process that can be hindered by any of the above and probably some other unhealthy practices I didn't list.  As parents it is our job to slowly detach from our children as they become independant from us and ready to leave the nest.  When our children don't progress through the stages of detachment (individualization) due to their disorder the detachment process gets derailed for both parent and child.

This is what detachment means to me.

lbjnltx

[Reality]

very helpful thread... . personalizing projections... . great wording... . that is what I meant when I wondered in a thread if pwBPD were acting out other's projections... . if one personalizes projections, chances are actions follow thoughts... . thanks for the wording lbjnitx and for the thread Vivek ananda... .

I guess this lack of detachment results in an illusion dance in the family.  So true.

Reality

[whiletheseasonspass]

FROM REALITY

that is what I meant when I wondered in a thread if pwBPD were acting out other's projections... .

Reality,

I have a memory of you posting this before- and thinking is Reality defining what I think she is?  

And if so am I understanding you in this wording of yours in the above quote- for instance that because the pwBPD ( and possibly other overlapping PD's) they can be extremely perceptive (almost psychic) - that they pick up OUR fears, concerns, what-have-you without ( or with our verbage)  that they then act out what they perceive?  

So  if for instance if we  feel WORRY for something they are doing that we fear they MIGHT do- something scary yet we say nothing- or perhaps we do give cues- without coming right out and saying ANYTHING (thus their high perceptive skills) or if for instance - or even our VOICE tone- WHEN they announce something- or however they perceive we are projecting - and they act on this- is this what you are saying?

 

wtsp

[Reality]

I remember the emphasis given in a Cognitive Behavior Therapy course on the relationship between our thoughts and our actions, how inter-connected, so that if one personalizes projections as lbjnitx stated, chances are actions will follow.

My son was extraordinarily intuitive and aware, an open soul.  I think pwBPD  pick up not only the projections of families, but also of outsiders and the society at large.  Hence, my constant fixation on their likeness to shamans and wise men.  Like the three following the star.  

Yes, that is why validating THEM works, one is stepping outside of one's own personal mess and putting oneself in their shoes.  It is impossible to project, if you are validating.

There is darkness in all souls.  If one doesn't have skin, as Marsha Linehan says, it might be pretty easy for the darkness to seep into one's soul.  

Detachment then means being authentic oneself.  No balderdash.

Reality

Yes, whiletheseasonspass, I think we might be saying the same thing here. 

I also think this is also why Mentalization works so well.  It is all about being curious about the other person, truly getting to know the pwBPD.  Real love.  Maybe detachment is real love.  Hmmm... .   Not about oneself, because one knows oneself to be fine.

[whiletheseasonspass]

Detachment then means being authentic oneself.  No balderdash.

Presently I am gently and with kid gloves (not forcing it down his throat for he can't hear me then) I am gently trying help dh understand something- i.e.   trying to help him stop validating the wrong things re: dd- which he (dh) KNOWS he needs to work on and is willing to but also something is holding him back yet not entirely- so that is where we are hopefully heading next... . so yes he validates- yes- but we both know that it is not helpful to dd's chances for movement in a different, better direction.  

dh knows when dd paints her picture to him - (even if he knows it can't be the way she is painting it) that something "emotional" takes over when dd talks to him - and thus he ends up (not wanting to) engaging in a way that is contributing to the perpetuation of dd's self-harming behaviors (this is something he has to "break" away from for he has been this way since she was a troubled, hurting youngster and he is improving.  He is!  But he knows he needs more work- he admits to this easily).  He at least admits and sees that dd is mentally ill which took years for him to acknowledge- and I am not saying I am perfect but I think because I read so much and write about it and reach out and study so much about this all- and listen to wise voices etc- it is helping me to be better at being detached but showing love and I "think"    - I believe that I do way better than I used to.

That said- Reality- you seem to have such a grasp on concepts and your special way of thinking resonates with me- you offer interesting viewpoints.  

THAT said, would you mind explaining a bit-  "being one's authentic self.  No balderdash".   Do you mean for example whereas dh admits to needing help- him not letting dd's darkness seep into dh's soul (if I am to use dh here as my example) -whereas  often he is not thick-skinned enough to "hear" what is really going on without his emotions as I was saying take over- thus his boundaries disintegrate sometimes and then he "validates" (not intentionally) in the way that opposes Linehan and other concepts we learn on this board re: communication etc.   And again- he inadvertently contributes in a deleterious way that sends dd's tentacles deeper into her self-harming place.  He doesn't do this intentionally.  Just does.  

Thank you for being here Reality- and thank you in advance with me posing another question to you especially if I did not put my words in a clear way-        

wtsp

[Reality]

whiletheseasonspass,

Yikes!  That is a very difficult question.  I  actually don't know, but here goes.

Authentic means loving oneself, not covering up one's foibles or weaknesses, being honest, having integrity.  Live and let live.  Live one's life according to one's own vision and let others do the same.  To be authentic means to be respectful towards oneself and others.  Without kindness, one can never be authentic because there are other values defining the person.  

Honestly, I think many of our husbands share a certain profile.  They tend to be good men, yet not men who take to real fathering.  My husband never had patience with my children.  Too quick-tempered, too reactive, not really taking the time to discover who the kids were as people.  Just the way he is.  As well, he would never participate in family therapy, so that was a huge problem.  Between you and me, he now realizes how he let Will and me down, big-time.  

My husband's emotions so often took over the relationship with Will.  It is rather tricky, as I know my husband means well, yet sometimes I honestly think they are the main problem and we women are left caught in the middle of two messes plus the mess they create between themselves.  I don't like to be talking about my husband this way, but isn't it the truth?

Reality

[vivekananda]

I got timed out... . all that good thinking gone! I'll try again... .

Thanks lbj for making such sense. I believe that's what I am talking about, by my perspective is based on yoga language etc and not psychology. Forgive me when I continue to use my language, the other is too new to me yet  .

Reality and WTSP, how did you know I was thinking about dh in all this?... . great minds eh?

So, the thoughts are still swirling about trying to make sense. And I am talking out loud again.

I visited my SIL interstate, this week. I was reminded of my dh's family traits that are so unhelpful. Yes, my dh is a kind and gentle man, a good husband and father. Nonetheless he and his family have an over riding family trait of egocentricism, self centredness that is rather ugly. The family is also scattered with N/BPD people. So, I am thinking that this trait is a part of his family's manifestation of the disorder.

Briefly, dh 's primary motivation is to get what he wants ... . of course we all make choices based on what we want, but dh's mind works differently to mine. A friend says it goes with the equipment, but I think such a generalisation is unfair. Dh is different to other men, of course. This self focus of his means that dh believes that he is right and what he wants is right, because he is right then he thinks he also knows what others want and feel etc Of course being a little intelligent means that he often is right about things. So, because he knows the answers already, he doesn't need to consider others unless it suits him. Now this is harsh and blunt and not the whole picture of course but it'll do  .

Last Thurs I caught a burglar in our home. 2 workers who came to my aid were subsequently attacked with a knife before he was disarmed and arrested. It was quite an exciting experience that turned out very well. He (35 yrs old) is inside now, unlikely to be released (he was on parole, armed and dangerous, in remand before trial). Dh wasn't home at the time, so I texted him: police here, caught burglar in house, all ok. When dh arrived home he tried to brush past me to get to the kitchen where police were. Why? Well he knew I was ok didn't he? Of course I stood in his path and made him acknowledge me   The adrenalin lasted till the next morning... . I was rather high with it. I constantly relived the experience with dh throughout that night. Finally, before going to sleep, I said you haven't validated me once. He replied, how do you feel - rather lamely. I explained I had been telling him how I felt all afternoon and evening! He just didn't get it.

This is the man who has asked the T we see to explain to him about validation. The man who is constantly exposed to validation by me as I explain and show by example. He just doesn't want to change the way he thinks, he doesn't see it is an issue. Remember this trait tells him he is right... . He is unable to 'let go of ego', he has immersed himself into the situation and believes he is right. There is nothing wrong with him, he is right

So why all this? I want to try to draw links between thinking and doing. We don't need to understand why and how validation works, we don't need to think that we need to change ourselves. We just need to begin to practise our techniques: boundaries, validation and self reflection. As we study these techniques and apply them, we begin to consciously change our behaviour. We begin to create new neural pathways for ourselves, we begin to change who we are. To help us, it helps to learn this other stuff too, to give ourselves the language to develop further and deepen our understandings.

Poor dh just needs to practise validation. Practise on strangers, practise on shop assistants, practise on friends. Just practise. Then he will begin to learn that he isn't always right and that he can begin to learn to 'let go of ego'.

Make sense?

Vivek    

[griz]

I am thoroughly convinced we live in an alternate universe and we share the same children and same husbands however they just look different physically to us.  My dh too is a good man but just does not get it as a father and never has.  This has been an ongoing argument in our home for years.  My older daughter is quite a wonderful kid.  Never gave us an ounce of trouble but the one thing she is is outspoken and firm in her beliefs.  During her teenage years there was virtually nothing she could do that dh didn't find fault with.  Every day was a battle in which I was caught in the middle.  He fought with her on the most childish levels and never validated anything she felt.  Is she was upset about something he had to tell her that she shouldn't be upset or it was ridiculous or no big deal.  Time and time again I would tell him that it was a big deal in her eyes at this moment of her life but he could never get it.  If she had a fight with a best friend and was upset in his mind (and he had no problem telling her)  that it is not big deal that in 10 years you probably won't even remember this person.  Everything and anything that was wrong was her fault. I remember one day picking DD up from school on a Thursday and she was so happy in the car on the way home and I said why are you so happy and she replied, "I love Tuesdays and Thursdays because dad works late and won't be home so he won't be fighting with L".  I remember how this broke my heart and all I could think of was how I would hate for my child to ever feel that way about me.  Dh also doesn't validate how I feel or often even listen to how I feel.  Very often I will be talking or telling a story and he will start talking about something else as if I wasn't even talking.  I use to get angry, now I just stop talking.

My older daughter is 23 now and has very little of a relationship with him and he doesn't know why.  For years I have tried to make him see that she has to give up his ego of always being right and always wanting it his way and he has never tried to change things.  I have very little hope for their relationship any longer.  They are cordial to each other but I don't know what else is there.

Tonight we dh and I went to dinner at our friends house that we spend Passover with every year.  I was telling a story that started out with saying that 2 years ago DD decided to go to a military school and although it didn't work out she met a very good friend there.  As soon as I started telling the story dh felt it necessary to tell everyone that DD only lasted one day.  Was that the truth, yes, did it have anything to do with the story I was telling no.  So I calmly said, "yes, anyway DD met this good friend... " and again he held us one finger and said while laughing "One day".  I started to really get annoyed first that he kept interupting me and second that he was making fun of DD.  Yes she only lasted one day and it was very sad.  She planned this all herself, looked into the school and begged us to send her because she thought that the structure would help her get her life together.  I was very worried that this was not a good decision but we looked at the school and they assured us that they were prepared to help DD.  We spoke to her P about it and he said, give it a try, if it doesn't work, big deal.  She tried and yes 24 hours later we had to go get her because she couldn't handle the anxiety of being away from home.  Anyway, I tried to continue my story and a third time he brought up that she was there only one day and a few of the people around the table were laughing so I gave him a kick under the table.  I can identify what I was feeling and it was embarassment for DD, even though she wasn't there I felt like she was being made fun of and laughed at and it hurt. (guess that is the mother bear in me).  We left shortly after and when we got in the car he was really angry at me for kicking him and I asked him why he felt such a need not only to interupt me but also to continue to make a joke at DD's expense... . no answer, just kept bringing up how I kicked him so I repeated the question and still no answer.

I don't believe that dh will ever get it and I think I am beginning not to care.

Griz

[qcarolr]

Technical note: I often 'copy' my whole entry before I hit "post" just in case it lost in space. Then I can logout, login and "paste" it in a new reply.

I got timed out... . all that good thinking gone! I'll try again... .

[qcarolr]

WOW - husbands!   You are all describing my conversation with my dh just last night. How he lumps groups of people "them" and seems to know they are not like him, and therefore they are not OK. I saw this in more extreme ways with his dad. This leads my dh to be very sarcastic and passive aggressive in his behaviors. Espcially when he is uncomfortable or feeling challenged. He likes to debate everything - everything. He seems to get pleasure out of others mild distress. THen, in our house anyway, things swirl out of control and then he is frantic to put a stop to the LOUDNESS of it all. He just can't seem to get that he started it all.

He refuses to do any therapy, and the family sessions he did attend he sabatoged - most often it ended after the initial appt. He did get through a 6 week couples evaluation (free under his EAP at work). He felt picked on by me and the T. Yet, I knew it helped him start to listen to me. That was in 2009. He refuses to read the books, though her has read some of the articles and workshops I print for him - well at least a couple years ago. He is trying harder to listen to me as I try harder to give him his debriefing time after work. He is good with gd - she enjoys his tinkering ways. They do wii bowling tournaments together - and we are searching for real bowling we can afford! He was home with her all day from 9 months to 18 months when unemployed with an injury. Made a strong attachment - he has rescued gd in so many ways. He did try with DD when she was little - she had no interest or ability in mechanical things which is so hard for him to accept. Like "How can she drive a car and not know what is going on under the hood... . "

Guess I am trying to say, don't give up hope - just keep on living in the new skill practices. I totally agree with Vivek  on this. We cannot force ourselves to be different. We can only gradually replace old patterns with new ones. Push the old out with the new. Replace a 'bad' habit with a 'good' one. And the more we push ourselves to just 'get over it' get rid of it' 'change it', whatever the it for today is, the more it takes ahold of us and refuses to let go.

So letting go - detaching from old patterns, thoughts, behaviors - is about not trying to let go. Does that make any sense?

qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Reality]

Maybe detachment is like being in the groove for musicians and artists.  Reminds me of sailing... . you have to be sensing the wind, where it might be, trimming the sails to suit the wind now, but being prepared for change... .

My husband, too, was often sarcastic and definitely short-tempered with kids... . not easy... .

Realiity

[qcarolr]

Maybe detachment is like being in the groove... .

I really like this metaphor 

qcr  

[Reality]

Thanks qcr, my thinking is abstract-random and I never know what I might say next! 

Reality

[lbjnltx]

Thanks qcr, my thinking is abstract-random and I never know what I might say next!  

Reality

 

That's why we love you!

[griz]

I couldn't agree more   

[vivekananda]

ahah! so they're the same but different. It is easy see the flaws in others isn't it?

Men, I understand, have to 'fix' things. They feel a role as providers as protectors. Women I believe, see themselves as supporters, and social lubricators. Men do things, women see that things are ok. Gross generalisations of course and therefore inaccurate when applied individually maybe helpful though in a general sense. I can smell irony here somewhere... .

Detachment I read recently is a type of 'defusion' where to defuse our thoughts and emotions is the purpose. It requires being able to stand aside from ourselves while understanding what we are experiencing. It is not a distance from oneself, it requires being totally in tune with oneself and the world and able to see it clearly. With defusion we can avoid tangling ourselves into a mess of thoughts and emotions, we can gain clarity. It involves letting go of our ego, and understanding that ‘it’ is not about ‘me’.

Now, I have a sis, she would agree totally with this. She is a 'rescuer' (see Karpmann Triangle). She goes to the homes of my sibs and spends days, weeks, months cleaning them for them, without their asking for this. They don't express the appreciation she expects. In recent years this trait of hers has become more marked, but she always was a rescuer. Going in to save others from themselves - because she knew how to help. She would say that 'it' is not about 'her', she is helping them because they need her. Personally she would rather be elsewhere having a good time. So, what is her view of detachment about?

I would suggest, she is meeting her emotional needs by doing this. I would suggest she doesn't see what her emotional needs really are and so looks to others to provide the way to meet her needs. Then she gets hurt when they don't reciprocate the way she wants. Detachment requires us to meet our own emotional needs ourselves. But first we have to understand them eh?

So how do we do that? How do we understand our own emotional needs? How do we identify our own personality traits and patterns of behaviour that lead us astray?

Vivek  ... . groovy  

[lbjnltx]

Detachment requires us to meet our own emotional needs ourselves. But first we have to understand them eh?

So how do we do that? How do we understand our own emotional needs? How do we identify our own personality traits and patterns of behaviour that lead us astray?

Identifying our emotional needs can be difficult sometimes.  With every feeling there is a need.

Try practicing this:

I feel_____hitI need_____.

Our behaviors are driven by our thoughts and feelings.  Trying to get a need met.

It seems to me the foundational work is to work on identifying our emotions. Having a good emotional vocabulary can help.

Then discerning what need that emotion is significant of.

Sometimes we have thinking errors that interupt our ability to meet our own emotional needs.  Identifying thinking errors and being more centered in our thinking will affect our emotions and our behaviors. 

I see this more as a circular process rather than a linear process.

[pessim-optimist]

... . It seems to me the foundational work is to work on identifying our emotions. Having a good emotional vocabulary can help... .

I have a great vocabulary! A full page that sits on my desk. I just don't know what to match it to... .  

Thank you, lbj, just wanted to inject a bit of humor here. You are right, identifying those emotions and what needs they are connected to is crucial. It is a learning process for sure.

... . He just doesn't want to change the way he thinks, he doesn't see it is an issue. Remember this trait tells him he is right... .

... . We don't need to think that we need to change ourselves. We just need to begin to practise our techniques... . As we study these techniques and apply them, we begin to consciously change our behaviour. We begin to create new neural pathways for ourselves, we begin to change who we are.

Poor dh just needs to practise validation... .  Just practise... . Then he will begin to learn that he isn't always right and that he can begin to learn to 'let go of ego'. ...

Make sense?

Vivek   

Dear Vivek , wish life were more simple sometimes... . I detect a bit of chicken and egg problem here:

Your dh doesn't think there is an issue, he thinks he is right, doesn't think he needs to change.

Now, WHAT MOTIVATION does he have to actually begin learning and practicing if he doesn't feel the need to change anything?


My take on 'detachment' is avoiding enmeshment. Staying connected while keeping appropriate boundaries to not confuse were I end and others begin. Knowing what others want from me, being able to empathize, but having a clear picture of what I want and don't want to give, and being able to say yes or no freely, after I have weighed the situation from all angles.

[lbjnltx]

I have been known on occassion to ask my husband... . ":)o you want to be right or do you want to be happy?"

[pessim-optimist]

I have been known on occassion to ask my husband... . ":)o you want to be right or do you want to be happy?"

What was his answer?

(Mine would have been right AND happy )

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Well of course... . "both".

So I tell him... . "that would be nice...   In this situation you only get to choose one.  It's not a shmourgusboard" (sp)

[griz]

This whole topic has been such an eyeopener for me for I realize I really haven't understood detachment nor been able to practice it.  I have been following the subject hear and reading everyone's comments and last night in the middle of a breakdown I think I finally got it.  I came home from work yesterday and was feeling overwhelmed and only my older daughter was home.  She asked me what was wrong and through my hysterical crying I was able to list the following:

Dad is just no getting it and never has.  He finds something wrong in everything everyone does, from where I park the car in the driveway, to fighting with you constantly and more.  I am so worn out by his constant complaining and his seemingly disinterest in how I am FEELING.

I am sad because grandma and grandpa are getting old and they dont understand things and I keep trying to help them and they refuse to see the doctor and I am trying so hard to help them but they are not participating in making things better.

I feel horribly quilty that while we were going through this whole mess with your sister you became so lost and I know that was two years ago but you went out to blow off steam and drank and got in your car and drove and ended up with a DUI. And maybe if I was a better mother and I was there for you more that wouldn't have happened.

I feel terrible that your sister (DD) suffers so much and no matter how much I try i can't fix this and alot of times I think what did I do wrong as a mom and I feel so like a failure.

And I have lost most of my friends because they don't understand MI and chosose to desert me and not want to be my friend any more.

And the only person that seems to think I'm really the bomb is the f... . ing dog.

My daughter looked at me and said  why do you think you are in charge of making everything right.  Dad needs to work on Dad, I made the decision in the end to drive my car after I drank, grandma and grandpa have to help themselves along with your help, your "friends" were idiots and leaving you said more about them then it does about you and you can't fix DD. You didn't cause this, she has a mental illness and you are giving her the support she needs so why are you doing this to yourself, why do you continue to beat yourself up and I finnaly understtod detachment.  I am so emmeshied in everyones lives it is like I have never seperated myself from everyone else.  So over the next few days I am going to sit myself down and make a list and answer the questions Who am I?  Who is Griz and what are her needs? How can I help  others without hurting myself or giving up myself?

I think I have a lot of work to do.

Griz

[lbjnltx]

Oh dearest friend griz... .  

First let me say you have a raised a wise daughter.  Kuddos to you for that.

I celebrate your breakthrough as another step of your journey towards healing and peace.

I like your plan too.  Who is Griz?  That's a good place to start.



lbj

[lbjnltx]

From the Lessons on the Leaving Board:

I have a friend whose 18-year-old son dropped out of school and now lives on the streets, choosing not to get a job. My friend and her ex-husband did everything they could to keep their son in school, including promising to support him financially through any form of educational training he chose. When none of their efforts worked, they acted on professional advice and withdrew financial support. Now, when they want to see him, they drive six hours north and go to the park where he hangs out and look for him. Their son seems fine with the whole situation, but they still wake up in the middle of the night, imagining him cold and hungry or seriously injured, and they move daily through different stages of worry, fear, and anger.

"This is the choice he's making about the way he wants to live his life," they tell themselves, drawing on the spiritual teachings that have nurtured them. "It's part of his journey. He has his own karma." But how do you stop being attached to your son's well-being? Can you just cut the cord that binds you to that long-cultivated feeling of concern and responsibility? During times like this—usually times of loss, since loss is notoriously more difficult to detach from than success—we face the hard truth about detachment practice: Detachment is rarely something we achieve once and for all. It's a moment-by-moment, day-by-day process of accepting reality as it presents itself, doing our best to align our actions with what we think is right, and surrendering the outcome.

On one of the homeless son's birthdays, his mother found him, took him to dinner, and bought him new clothes. He didn't like the pants, so he left them and went off in his old ones. "At least I saw him. At least I could tell him that I loved him," my friend said later. "I could remind him that anytime he wants to make other choices, we're here to help him."

I admire the way this woman holds the complexity of her feelings about her son, doing what she can while still recognizing what she has no power to do, looking for a way to find the best in the situation without glossing over its difficulties. There's nothing Pollyanna-ish about her detachment; it's hard-won. Life demands this of all of us—all of us—sooner or later, because if this world is a school meant to teach us how to love, it's also a school for teaching us how to deal with loss.

The Lessons are written to help the non detach from a romantic partner.  Regardless of the relationship designation the Lessons still apply.  (working on adapting this for parents).

Here is the link:

Just Let Go

[Reality]

Dear friends,

Last night and early this morning I experienced deep distress, deep.  I phoned the distress centre at 2 in the morning and talked.  After an hour, I felt less pain and I hugged my Carribbean cloth doll and fell asleep.

I felt badly that I wrote about my husband in a negative way here on the board because I felt that maybe people will think I am just a complaining person, which I don't like to be.  I was trying to understand how my husband's ways might not have been helpful for my son.  I know I, too, made many mistakes.

We are all very lucky that we know each other on this board.  Thank you, griz and lbjnitx, for accepting me and for saying so, loud and clear. 

I, too, feel like such a failure, as my wonderful son is dead.

Reality

[qcarolr]

reality - just want you to know I so care about you. you keep things real for me.     

qcr  

[qcarolr]

The Lessons are written to help the non detach from a romantic partner.  Regardless of the relationship designation the Lessons still apply.  (working on adapting this for parents).

Here is the link:

Just Let Go

I have tried and tried detachment as described in this link. So far only 'successful' when things are on the up side. When life gets tough, I have turned away as this is really hard work then. My experience while DD26 was homeless 2009 - 2011 was from Al Anon - their principles are very much based on ":)etachment with Love". It is very much about letting go of the anger and resentment so one can be connected in relationship and detached at same time. Living in the paradox.

OK, so this is the quote in my profile! So I have been working on this paradox since DD was in middle school 15 years ago, when things go so much harder for all of us. Dh and I stepped out of her life in many ways - allowing a girlfriend to be at our house while we increased our time working in dh's business. Being very superficial as parents. I work on my guilt over this now, just as I did then.

I also see this detachment over and over and over in my new connection to Bible study. Jesus said to walk away from our earthly life to follow him, and then we would have a better connection to the people in our lives. Same paradox, different language.

I have seen this in my experiences with the Buddhist community, very strong where I live.

So what keeps me from working with this principle when things are hard? Why do I jump back into my old patterens of thinking and acting (being very manipulative with my emotions in my family)? How can I reprogram my brain systems to keep on working throught the grief, pain and suffering? I am so tired - how do I motivate myself to keep working the detachment process instead of giving into running away?

qcr  

[lbjnltx]

I can only speak to what has worked for me.

Radical Acceptance.

Because I have a strong faith in God I have somewhere much more wise and powerful than myself to send my concerns.  Rather than ask myself over and over "why" I would talk to God and acknowledge his Omnipotence, Omniscience  and Love for myself and my daughter... . I would ask Him "what do you want me to learn from this?" and tell Him "I know that all things work together for the good of those who love You and are called according to Your purposes."

I would give it to God and when I found myself taking it back from Him I would repeat the process again.

lbj

[Reality]

qcaroir,

Thank you for accepting me with all of my strange ways.

Reality

[Reality]

I posted and then tried to modify.  It didn't take.

Reality

[Reality]

lbjnitx,

The whole point of Good Friday is that life is so valuable, we are so loved, as the lilies of the field, which I think might be abstract-random thinkers, by the way, (haha as heronbird says)  that the change has happened, the Garden of Eden is at hand.

I understand the notion of sacrifice, yet even Abraham did not lose his wonderful son, Isaac.  Yet, Mary and Elizabeth... .

I am into mustard seed faith, as I count myself lucky on any given day to have the grain.  So what am I to learn?  The  only lesson I can figure out is that the world is a far more brutal, judgmental place than I could ever have imagined.  That doesn't mean, of course, that God isn't there or that I am plunged into a place of meaninglessness, just that people's lack of compassion and kindness plays out in the real world.  Next lesson might be that the mustard seed is not big enough or mighty enough, but that doesn't ring true to me either.

Which takes me back to the lesson part.  I may sound flippant, but I am just trying to say it as it seems to be.

I guess I had better go read CS Lewis, who lost the love of his life after such a short time.

Maybe time doesn't exist as we know it, clock-wise.  Or as my last son says, I need to think in Will-Time.

I really like being a lily, full of hope and trust and just being.  I think that is such a part of the agony, maybe all of it.  My liliness is gone.  I do pretend to be a lily much of the time, iron my petals and wash them with dew... .

You know, lbjnitx, just talking to you lightened the load.  Thank you.

Realily

[pessim-optimist]

Oh, Reality,      

You are so right! C.S. Lewis is one of the best writers I know... . Such profound wisdom, and human honesty at the same time.

Life in this broken world just brings us so much pain sometimes and unanswered questions... .

The juxtaposition between our pain and God's love; the valley of tears we go through and the hope that we have at the same time... .

What I see in the parable of the mustard seed is that the seed is so small, seems like nothing really, but if it sprouts and takes root, it can grow into something really big and strong, something surprising, and that God knows the potential and is there to help make it happen.

That His ways and purposes are not so obvious and predictable to us. That it is a journey of time and slow growth under His loving care. He makes you into a beautiful lily, Reality, you don't have to work on those petals, just breathe in and out and as you relax in His presence, and stretch your hands towards Him, His love shines upon you, the petals will straighten and heal with time on their own... .    

[lbjnltx]

Dear Reality and friends,

We are all grieving.  Some of us are grieving the loss of the children we thought we had and you my dearest Reality are grieving the loss of your son here on earth.  There are stages of grieving.  These stages are not a linear progressive process.  We may visit any or all of the stages many times.  The final stage of grieving is acceptance.  What we know here to be radical acceptance.

What helps us be able to grieve is having the validation of each other and our experiences. Can we ever get to radical acceptance, the last stage of grieving without acknowledging that we are grieving?  There is much information about grieving the loss of a loved one.  What I couldn't find is information regarding the grieving of our living children.  

I am working on putting together some info that I hope will help all of us.  What helps us now is the strength we get from each other.  When one of us hurts we are here to encourage, support with kindness, accept, validate and pray for each other.  When one of us has a breakthrough, a victory to report or something funny to say we all rejoice together.

How does all of this relate to detaching?  To detach we must practice radical acceptance, to get to the point of radical acceptance we must go through the grieving process.  No one is grieving  more amongst us than Reality.  We are here to learn from you, while we support you.

lbj

[qcarolr]

I say YES to all of this from all of you who I count as dear friends. qcr  

[vivekananda]

lbj, for me the thing about grieving for my dd is that I still harbour hope that we will have a relationship and hope that perhaps she can heal herself but have to accept that there is a chance that neither of these will happen.

... .

In my last post I asked, how do we understand our own emotional needs... . it is easy to see the faults in others. Last night I was thinking of one of my favourite lessons from the bible: why are you telling me I have a splinter in my eye when you have a log in your own! If I have a log in my eye, I can't see too clearly can I, let alone criticise someone else for having a splinter in theirs?

I detect a bit of chicken and egg problem here:

Your dh doesn't think there is an issue, he thinks he is right, doesn't think he needs to change.

Now, WHAT MOTIVATION does he have to actually begin learning and practicing if he doesn't feel the need to change anything?

PessiO, I think the point is that while I can see the splinter in dh's eye, really I could be looking at my own log and doing something about that maybe   I think for me dh's issues provide me with an opportunity to look at my personality traits that are less than helpful and find ways to correct the imbalance I find. If dh's self centredness is such an issue for me, then perhaps I could look at my own ego driven thoughts and behaviours. I always found it ironic that the things that others tell me is wrong with me, are the things that I see is 'wrong' with them. So perhaps one way of looking at our flaws, is to see what bothers us in others.

I have tried and tried detachment as described in this link. So far only 'successful' when things are on the up side. When life gets tough, I have turned away as this is really hard work then.

Yep, me too. I find that when under stress, my default thoughts and behaviours return to the old less helpful ways of doing things. And this is I think the time (or afterwards, when we can reflect) when our best learning can occur. When we feel our stress levels rising and the adrenalin kick in, that is when we are likely to revert to finding external means to meet our emotional needs (unless of course we are dealing with a true life threatening situation). This is when we blame others, when we say, 'why me?', we when we want someone else to solve our problems. These are the situations we can use to practice those things that will draw us back to 'detachment', 'acceptance' and being open to the 'positive energy of the universe.'

... .

Griz, dear Griz strength to you! That time of wingeing and complaining about others is just the thing. That's me - or I hope, that was me   It's times like that I say to myself, 'it's not about me', that I need to 'let go of my ego' and remind myself of what my objective for myself really is. Now, I feel the need to say, I do still indulge myself and winge and complain about others, but I hope that this is slowly becoming more productive. Generally I feel that it is.

... .

Dear Reality, your grief is so very real, I can feel it. All this talk in the abstract may be of help to us to understand who we are and how to become better, but I think it does nothing much to ease the pain here and now, of your grief. Your sorrow is so, so deep and if you were here I would want to hold you close and soothe you. Instead please accept my feeble attempts to do so with these words. You are much regarded here for your insight and wisdom, we would all want you to take especial care of yourself, for our sakes.

... .

lbj that site:

Here is the link:

Just Let Go

is just brilliant!

... .

Now, as I see this, 'acceptance' 'detachment' and being 'open to the universe' as three discrete concepts that are interrelated and interdependent. To be able to become a better person, requires that all three become embodied in my thoughts and behaviours. To understand these concepts is not easy, and there are layers of understanding that can take us deeper and deeper into a greater consciousness of who we are. To continue to develop I need to continue to work on understanding them and those techniques such as validation and values based boundary setting and self reflection. This I have discovered for myself is not an easy fix, but a part of a process. I want to make my default thoughts and behaviours those which leads to a better life for myself, so that I can be a positive force for my world.

Thank you also, to my good friends here. I shudder to think where I'd be without you.

Viv     

[lbjnltx]

That is the dialectical dilemna Vivek , grieving for what we have lost while holding onto hope for what may come in the future... . to radically accept that both exist  together in the same space... . to be able to even explore these concepts we need to be willing to detach.  Yes?

[qcarolr]

lbj - yes. It helps me to remember that radical acceptance is one part of the 4 areas of DBT skills. The other skill areas are needed to support our ability to accept. I think it is part of the Mindfulness module. The others are Distress Tolerance, Emotion Regulation and Interpersonal Effectiveness.

Need to also remember that this is a practice - a daily need to review and use and over time it will intergrate. Yet, when I stop daily practice it slips away again.

qcr

[vivekananda]

Dialectical dilemma probably yes,  think but I do need to explore all this so much more.

When we look for answers and we come to realise that we need to look at our own thoughts, feelings and actions and see them clearly in the context of our own experience, it is like a thunderbolt (or it was for me).

Then to begin to understand requires a flexibility of mind and actual physical practice so our understanding is not just theoretical and in the mind, but also physical, in our thinking and our communications with others and in our emotions. This is not abstract 'argument' or discussion but very real and requires us to be present in the moment. We have to learn to implement our techniques: boundaries, validation, our personal mantras, etc etc daily, constantly. Until our practices become a part of us and our way of thinking.

In this way we can begin to strengthen our understandings, getting through the layers of understanding from starting out so simply to begin to delve deeper and more. Because we have others with us on this journey we are able to stay in touch and engage in the dialogue that develops our understandings. We can stay on track.

I have found that being involved in the posts of other people has been a good way for me to consolidate my learning. That dialectic though is still something that requires more attention from me - you see I first learnt about the dialectic dilemma when studying Karl Marx! It meant something different then   

It feels like I am preparing a new suit of clothes to wear and I have been selecting the right materials and designs and I am washing them, adjusting the fitting measurements, selecting the accessories and so on and so forth. Soon I'll have a whole new outfit I hope - and it will be one that ill be constantly changing too, to suit the changing in learning and experiences... . or so I hope,

lots of love to yas all,

Viv   

ps perhaps I need to learn more about those DBT skills, can you help me?

To be able to discuss this here, amongst friends who understand my situation, is a blessing.

[qcarolr]

Vivek  - here is a site that has helped my understand DBT.  www.dbtselfhelp.com/

qcr  

[mamachelle]

I just wanted to let you all know I was reading these posts and was almost in tears over passover-Easter weekend. So much of my husband in your husbands, so much of the grief and also hope I feel for my 2 DSS's as well as their siblings. There is so much here that resonates with me.

I am still reading and looking at all the links. I am posting to say thanks ... .   and also to make sure I don't miss any more insightful posts.

[vivekananda]

there you go... .   qcr I saved it onto my favourites only to find that I already had the link there!

How many of you have read stuff in a frenzy and then found it new again and read it again and begun to understand... .   ? me for one.

but this site requires serious dedication and there is so much work here already (esp the need to reread the link lbj gave on detachment)

Still got thoughts swirling around my head... .   that I need to think out loud here, but they are not making sense yet. I need to consolidate all this I reckon.

Cheers,

Vivek

[vivekananda]

ok, you remember how this all started? How looking at poor old dh and sis and how not with it they were... .   well try this:

"So how does a little venting hurt us?  When we are resentful, we try to balance the wrongs we feel by demeaning the person that hurt us.  We bash them, feel disgust for them, feel hatred or look down in pity... .   we may even wish them harm or lash out to hurt them or their reputation.

The problem for us is that we create a dysfunctional and false reality to sooth our pain.  And in doing so we cling to a futile need to be right or be superior, which overrides our capacity to heal and to make healthy changes in our lives... .   usually because we don't know any other way to come to grips with the painful feelings of hurt, rejection, and abandonment. "

detachment is so important eh?

Has the anger gone too far?

Vivek  

[mamachelle]

From the Lessons on the Leaving Board:


The Lessons are written to help the non detach from a romantic partner.  Regardless of the relationship designation the Lessons still apply.  (working on adapting this for parents).

Here is the link:

Just Let Go

Ok, so with 6 kids and a new volunteer ambassador position here, my DH dealing with his own depression in not so constructive ways. I am sitting here with my s2, watching caillou and he's looking at this little guy      and waving bye bye  and trying to get a post in edgewise... .  

I was reading the articles on the sally kempton site that lbj was referring to and saw this one on Difficult People... .  

www.sallykempton.com/resources/articles/the-difficult-people-in-your-life/

I tried the flower meditation on my DH and it worked. I tried it a bit with SS10  (bipolar-- and udx BPD traits) and it also seemed to work. it's not a long term fix for them but it is helping me see people as energy bundles which is old school new age thinking, but it helps to reframe things in not so clinical terms.

---

As far as detachment practice, I had a toothpaste revelation the other day.

I was sitting with my S2 on Monday morning and my SS15 was getting ready for school and kept coming to me with anxious requests. He suffers from Bipolar and is on the autism spectrum as well.

He was asking me for the 6th time if I knew about/ could get him/ did I remember / he needed a new head for his electric toothbrush. *He went from not brushing his teeth at all prior to hospitalization... . to over brushing his teeth to the point where he gags. The hygenist suggested an electric brush and even with that, in a week he had gone through a new head* I was reassuring him when a toothpaste commercial came on. There was this happy looking guy with a big smile just saying goodby to his happy parents and joining friends... .   and I just felt this synchronicity and sadness that my SS15 and SS10 will never be that boy in the commercial, in fact, with Ss15-- it was this twisted tooth brushing obsessive behavior -- and then I just said--- ok mamachelle this is a perfect moment to practice detachment and process and see a trigger... .  

Still long ways to go on detachment, but wanted to share.

[qcarolr]

The past few weeks I have been searching for my 'detachment' toolbag that has gone missing. Just need to say thanks to all posting here.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

mamchelle, that article is just right for me. Thanks you for the link. The website looks just grand too. I feel so much better.

The flower meditation brought tears to my eyes, this is what I am lacking in my life right now, guided meditation. I will immediately begin my practice. Thank you again   

Viv     

[qcarolr]

mamachelle, thanks for this article link. I have many conflicts to work through. This is one path to link into.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

I just wanted to say I think detachment is not cutting off from others or the world, but rather it is about meeting my own emotional needs, not projecting them onto others.

or something like that

Viv  

[qcarolr]

My personal experience in a very parent oriented Al Anon group helped me so much while DD26 was not allowed in our home for almost 2 years. One of their primary principles is ":)etachment with Love". It is really about taking care of ourselves by stepping back and this allows a healthier r/s. And sometimes there it requires some physical distance. This was part of what allowed me to reconnect with my DD so she can be back in our home.

Things are tough right now. DD is under extreme stress - self induced - with her avoidance of her DWAI probation requirements. Her peer group does not support her success in this. Many of them have spent time in jail, and don't get why she is bothering with complying at all. DD does not want to be in jail - she has been before.

I am finding myself detaching from her - well more like dissociating with her. It is really not very healthy for either of us. I am working on finding the 'love' part again. This is also what validation skills are about. To take care of self so can be in a sincere and strong emotional state to build communication with our pwBPD.  Keeping ourselves feeling safe is a primary concern to be open to this communication - at least for me.

qcr  

[vivekananda]

This is also what validation skills are about. To take care of self so can be in a sincere and strong emotional state to build communication with our pwBPD.  Keeping ourselves feeling safe is a primary concern to be open to this communication -

affirmative   

Viv   

[Reality]

I think detachment is  allowing reality to be reality.  Mental illness is about illusions, a flight from reality.  Illusions are fascinating, yet very dangerous. 

Detachment is looking for truth. It is not about how we feel.  It is about observing.  The Dalai Lama. 

Stories can be very illusory.  Labels de-humanize. 

I see now that I was not thinking clearly for the last years.  Scary... .  

My husband and I needed to be a team, to discuss the reality of our son's dangerous behavior sensibly... .   slowly and sensibly finding sensible solutions... .  

It is very easy to disconnect from reality... .  

Detachment is seeing reality.

Reality

[Reality]

Detachment is living each day.

Detachment is eating each bite of food, with contentment.

Detachment is about noticing.

Detachment is wisdom.

Detachment is the opposite of panic.

Detachment is true kindness, not pop-psychology behavior.

Detachment is being dignified.

Detachment is the opposite of being reactive.

Detachment is about using one's own mind to see reality, trusting one's perceptions.

Reality

[vivekananda]

thank you reality... .   your words are blindingly clear.

I hope that you and your dh are a strong comfort for each other. It must be hard.

I am trying to work on seeing my reality with my dh. What it is with me that I can do, I ask myself. So easily I can tell him the splinter that is in his eyes, but that log obscuring mine, distorts my view.

Sadly, I have not been walking lately... .   a long story... .   it is when I walk on my own that things become clearer, when I can reflect and connect with my universe, when I can build acceptance and detachment.

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

Detachment is living each day.

Detachment is eating each bite of food, with contentment.

Detachment is about noticing.

Detachment is wisdom.

Detachment is the opposite of panic.

Detachment is true kindness, not pop-psychology behavior.

Detachment is being dignified.

Detachment is the opposite of being reactive.

Detachment is about using one's own mind to see reality, trusting one's perceptions.

Reality

IMHO the process to reach a place of healthy detachment is through mindfulness practice.

qcr