Hardest Symptom

[whereisthezen]

For me it is projection. Projection is like psychosis. The BPD acknowledge just about all of their thoughts clearly, loudly, incessitantly, but says its the other person. Its the light halfway going on, halfway to understanding except tge other half missing, the part that its them and they are projecting is missing.

Hardest symptom to recover from. Its eerie, abusive and I cant think of any positives.

What is the worst symptom you are trying to get through?

[crazylife]

Gas lighting is the worst for me.

[BorderlineMagnet]

Saying something but expecting the opposite/self-prophesizing. Those two were the worst for me with my 2 ex pwBPD's. With my low-functioning e, she would rage and say she didn't wanna talk, but when I backed off he would be mad that I didn't talk to her to make it better. Simply maddening. With the current ex who's high-functinoning she told me "right now I don't I don't think I wanna talk to you again" after I exposed her to her new guy while she was still with me. This is confusing because not only is it a back door for her ( "right now" ), but it could be also that she does want to talk to me. Self-prophesizing also leads to confusion when they speak of a scenario they don't want to happen, or do, and then they do everything to make it not, or make it, happen. Low-function ex would hint to me everything she was gonna sabotage. The current one (who I do want to reconnect with) aid to me when I confronted her about the guy "What, you think I was going to break up with him and come running back to you?" Now I' confused if that's what she plans on doing or if that was the most hate I was gonna hear from her.

[benny2]

I think the push/pull is the hardest for me. One day I'm the love of his life, the next I feel like nothing more than a friend. Its really hard for me to absorb and even though now I know theres a disorder behind it, it still hurts.

[DJB0531]

Definitely the splitting and the black/white thinking.

I have been her KISA and then her whipping boy, more times than I could convey.

I have watched it happen with her girls over and over again... .   one bad, one good.  Never at the same time.

I am sorry to hear of all the pain that everyone experiences in their own way.

[daze]

Push pull - definitely the worst for me.

[profplum]

for me the biggest frustration is if they refuse to seek any form of medical or professional help despite in the calm times acknowledging they need it

[Cloudy Days]

I think the black and white thinking is the hardest to deal with. The world just does not function in black and white terms. When my husband splits me black I am the worst person in the world. It's the fact that I messed up somehow and if I am not perfect then to him that means I am all bad. So if I burn his dinner, that means I am cheating on him and I have all kinds of secrets I am keeping, because if I'm not white and perfect, I am all bad. It has nothing to do with each other, but he always goes there. Heck I have even tried to explain it to him, He will go from getting mad at me for spending $10 too much to saying if I don't respect him on that issue, then I don't respect him on anything so that means I am cheating on him.

He does it with more than just people too. Everything in his life is either black or white. It's a very flawed veiw of the world.

[bpdmcgee]

Everything. The way he acknowledges and understands what he does when he is in his "good place" (his words), the way he inevitably forgets all that as soon as he is triggered by (anything... .   ANYTHING) he feels offended by.

The exhaustion of it all. The way it it is sucking the life from me.

The insanity of trying couples therapy, only to watch him present his wounded, misunderstood persona, that I sadly watch the counselor get sucked into while admonishing me how better to communicate in less "fighting words" (yah I know, I read that couples counseling would likely not be effective but still wanted to try).

You know what my "fighting word" was today? I said the word... .   never. 45 minutes wasted of my life debating my choosing the word,NEVER, because it made him feel devalued. THIS... .   while he expects understanding for everything because "I know how he is".

I feel like banging my head against the wall with the absurdity of it all. The insanity. I am existing (yes... .   right word... .   NOT living... .   ) in a world of bizarre reality.

And then he demands that I verbally say I am not going to leave him while I am in yet another throe of this twisted reality.

You know what the hardest thing is? Not mattering. Having it be all about him. His blindness to it all. Worried... .   seriously worried... .   that I am with a crazy person.

[benny2]

I know what you mean. I am always rethinking everything I say as I am afraid it will be taken the wrong way. Its crazy! I even had the hardest time finding a birthday card for him as I did not know if he could take a joke. Well I guess I will find out soon.

[defusion5]

Gas lighting is the worst for me.

I agree.  It's affects me physically (feeling weak, sleep disturbances), emotionally (overwhelming discomfort in my stomach, feel fragile, vulnerable, teary,) Spiritually (shaky)

[VeryFree]

I can’t put on above the other. It’s the total package that has been taken me down. The projection is frustrating, the splitting is horrible, the black and white-thinking is irritating, the gaslighting is nervewrecking.

[whereisthezen]

Lying is also really hard, I think in my r/s he really believes he's telling the truth if he is in a certain state and it gets re-written in him mind. Same goes for behaviors, I believe he doesnt always feel that he's done them. Like it may have happened, but not in my life... .   Probably believes it happened like in a dream. Sad.

[WalrusGumboot]

Gas lighting is the worst for me.

I agree with gas lighting. This one, if successful, made me question my own mental health.

[benny2]

I agree with the lying. It does seem in their mind they are telling the truth. So hard to deal with.

[Siamese Rescue]

I am so grateful for this board. I'm here, practically paralyzed, in my bed in tears because of the latest round of his inconsistent behaviors. It's so emotionally exhausting and scary to me I could collapse. The worst for me is the gas lighting and him painting me black in such a sporadic unexplained nonsensical way.

[motherof1yearold]

In order:

Gas lighting

Lying

Projection


So painful... .   makes you feel crazy every time... .  

[healingmyheart]

That's a good question... .   what was the hardest symptom? 

For me, it's hard to really place one above the rest BUT ultimately it was the

LYING/DECEIT that made me leave as well as the VERBAL ABUSE... .   raging.

Now that I know the reality of the disorder which I didn't when I was enmeshed in the relationship, the hardest thing is knowing that he will always live in denial and there is no chance for improvement. 

[funkenstein91]

It's tough to say, but for me the worst of it is that I'm the only one who realizes what she does. Her friends and my family all see her as the sweetest, most wonderful person imaginable. They don't understand her splitting behavior, or the emotional abuse, or her projective or exaggerated behaviors. I'm sure her friends think our relationship fell apart almost exclusively because of me, and my family just thinks she's completely innocent in general. It all makes me feel completely alone in this battle.

[whereisthezen]

Thats certainly a tough one. Ive been there, talk to someone even if its a good friend of yours if you have been keeping it all to yourself.

It changes for me but I find projection and lying ( to where they benefit from deceipt) the hardest.

I've been disconnecting and its began to help. BPD partner still lies a lot but Ive accepted that I am OK to just work on myself right now. He's no longer more important than me. Which I find very freeing.  Little steps help.

Do you journal, it may also give you a place to tell your story if you cant to anyone else. 

[BorderlineMagnet]

The lies are extremely hard to deal with. But you know what? There's a silver lining to that. When they lie you can then decode what they really mean. They tell on themselves all the time. Their lies are actually the easiest way to get the truth you need from them. In my experience, they lie like children, so it's not too difficult to tell when they are doing it. Just don't feel the need to call them out on it. That just makes it worse, because again, like children, they will react in childish ways when they get flustered. Take what you need from their lies to validate those gut feelings you have most likely been having.

[whereisthezen]

Borderlinemag, I'm right with you on that one!

i really know that one for a while now just had to "accept" it which is hard but then relief.

He pretty much says it ALL. Just had to be in it long enough to realize thats what he's doing. I'm detaching from him now, now that I know when he's lying and what the truth is and not asking questions, he I think is wondering why and what Im doing more if that makes sense. I no longer check into his lies because I know he lies, so he now wonders if I care and whats going on with me, is somewhat more attentive so I try hard not to get caught up in that or in him. Breaking my codependency, I have to disengage right now in a heathier way.

[bruceli]

I know what you mean. I am always rethinking everything I say as I am afraid it will be taken the wrong way. Its crazy! I even had the hardest time finding a birthday card for him as I did not know if he could take a joke. Well I guess I will find out soon.

Wow!  I thoght I was the only one with the birthday card dilema :-)  And having to watch every word/ststement.

[rollercoaster24]

God, hi all, where to start?

DR Jekyll at times

Definately the lying

Stealing, and justification for everything they do, including verbal abuse, (no excuses for anyone else though!)

Possibly cheating?

Financial abuse, emotional abuse, and selfishness

Lack of empathy

Self obsessed, braggarts, over opiniated, narcissistic.

double standards

Two faced

Violent, dangerous and agressive

Mr Hyde at others

Sweet, loving funny, generous, giving.

The sheer knowing that you will never find another you will feel this way about again... . especially knowing they cannot help it, but infuriating they do nothing about the havoc they wreak, and the life hours they waste, both of theirs and yours!@!

[rollercoaster24]

But most of all?

When they begin another stage show, and they succeed in bringing you down to where they are... .

It almost seems they are happy when they finally push your buttons enough to get you acting just as crazy as they are... .

Like they know they are totally disordered deep down, (especially at times when they admit it) and they succeed at making the line between your own sanity just as blurred as theirs is!

Sometimes, I just run away!

[forestpeace639]

Silent treatment and stonewalling--hands down. Coupled with recycling.

At least for me, it absolutely tears me up inside. The fact that you keep thinking that someho, maybe you'll say the magic words that will get them to come around. Then realizing that nothing you say is right and that they've completely blocked you out of their life without ending the friendship/relationship you have.

Then, when you're just recovering from being broken over and over again, the come back like nothing's happened. Things get better, then it starts all over again.

This is what I'm currently going through. (I wrote a novel of a first entry in the "introduce yourself" forum . If you're in the mood for reading and helping me out, that would be great haha. The truth is, I don't know what to do with myself. Hello, I'm new!)

[VeryFree]

I know what you mean. I am always rethinking everything I say as I am afraid it will be taken the wrong way. Its crazy! I even had the hardest time finding a birthday card for him as I did not know if he could take a joke. Well I guess I will find out soon.

Wow!  I thoght I was the only one with the birthday card dilema :-)  And having to watch every word/ststement.

No, I had the dilemma too!

Last year I had the best birthdaycard ever: made it myself (she couldn't say I didn't put any effort in it), with pictures from her loved ones (she couldn't say I did it for me), with just kind words without any meaning.

Guess what her reaction was?

.

.

.

I have not got a birthdaycard from you... .    :'(

[VeryFree]

I can’t put on above the other. It’s the total package that has been taken me down. The projection is frustrating, the splitting is horrible, the black and white-thinking is irritating, the gaslighting is nervewrecking.

Rereading I think I have the most difficulties with her lack of empathy, the lack of conscience. Without that all the other things wouldn't be possible.

[AJ Wrangler]

For me it is the inappropriate anger and rage outbursts anytime I don't do or say what she "expects". It makes me stressed out and I feel so much stress I can barely breathe.

I don't know if this is considered a symptom, but the hardest thing for me to accept, that really makes me want to leave her, is the her manipulative, controlling ways, making me feel like I have no way out.

AJ

[hellokitty4]

There should be a "like" button here because I agree with all the comments.

For me it's the push/pull, the double standard,, the never ending finger pointing, the constant blaming even when I really didn't do anything wrong, the anger, the irrational thinking, jealousy... . She is wired different.

[whereisthezen]

"She is wired different", mine too Hellokitty, perhaps a little crosswired at times!

My H has some understanding that he is emotional and hides himself from the world ( by mirroring people of dignity or other peoples morals) as I believe one side of him wants to be that, the otherside is in complete turmoil so much so he seeks instant gratification and approval from the way he dresses, who he socializes with, and financial status.

Once in a while I get a glimpse he understands or can control himself but that is not very often.  I think inconsistency or inability to dig deeper in himself is frustrating to me, however I am more focused on myself the last month.  I do believe he will continue his behavior his traits... .  So I've got to deal with me first now.

[KellyO]

I hated double-standards and raging, but hardest for me was projection. It took long time to get my head around it, and I noticed I did it too (like all people do sometimes), but he projects literally everything in me. It was like a heavy load in my shoulders that I couldn't get rid off. When later I realized how much he projected, I mean it was ridicilous, I begin to blame him from lying. For me it was lying. He blamed me for doing what he did, without having no clue if I did it or not. Often it was something he was shamed of in himself, and did not want to admit he had done something he had said he would never do. So he decided it is actually me who does stuff like that. This really drove me nuts.

Good part is, today I'm somewhat immune to projection. I notice if I project, and if someone projects their own crap to others, I notice it too, and it gives me information about that person.

[bruceli]

I know what you mean. I am always rethinking everything I say as I am afraid it will be taken the wrong way. Its crazy! I even had the hardest time finding a birthday card for him as I did not know if he could take a joke. Well I guess I will find out soon.

I can relate except it was mothersday this past sunday.  Took the whole family out to brunch the Sunday before mothersday to celebrate because my mother was going on vacation and would not be around on mothersday.  BPDw this past sunday night, mothersday, says... .  You did'nt do anything for me for mothersday.  I said remember brunch last Sunday?  Her reply... .  But I did'nt WANT to  go to that, the reason being that she was soo hung over from a party the night before, so that does'nt count... .  LOL

Wow!  I thoght I was the only one with the birthday card dilema :-)  And having to watch every word/ststement.

No, I had the dilemma too!

Last year I had the best birthdaycard ever: made it myself (she couldn't say I didn't put any effort in it), with pictures from her loved ones (she couldn't say I did it for me), with just kind words without any meaning.

Guess what her reaction was?

.

.

.

I have not got a birthdaycard from you... .    :'(

[Black Pearl]

for me the absolute hardest symptom has been the passive/aggression, it is an acid that just slowly eats into me.

My mother was an expert at this but I did not realize it until many years later, but my wife is so good I don't even realize what is happening until the argument she wanted is in full swing then the projection starts and what ever she is feeling are my emotions.  I hope to learn tools to work around this here.   

[careman]

To me I think it was

-push/pull and its more-of-the-same version breakup/makeup

-contradictions saying A then B then C doing D meaning E ( https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=187665.0;topicseen )

-self centeredness or 'un-we-ness'. I lacked the continuity and consistency of a 'we' feeling, and accompanying security of the r/s. Had that in episodes only.

There was also an 'on-the-brink' quality in the r/s not mentioned here that I felt; her beeing either in the r/s or out of it, but mostly balancing just right there perfectly in between, on the edge of being in/out - 'on-the-brink'. I felt oftentimes I had to 'win her minute by minute'. VERY stressful

yeah well... .  the craze of it all... .  rollercoaster... .  on-off... .  

/Careman

[Juliecelle]

Lying! It's the lying!

So much of this disorder revolves around lying! Gas-lighting, distortion campaigns, painting their victim(s) black and white, etc.

They lie to avoid shame.

They lie to avoid responsibility.

They lie to avoid reality.

They lie to receive attention.

They lie in order to appear as someone they are not.

They lie to make you appear as someone you are not.

Lies. So many lies.

[byasliver]

GREAT thread! For me, it's the verbal abuse no matter what BPD trait it comes from: projection, lack of empathy, black/white thinking, etc. When my uBPDh is hurting or feeling attacked he is going to make sure others around him feel 100 times worse than he does. He is beginning to recognize when his feelings are building and trying to self-sooth but hasn't recognized how he takes his feelings out on others, yet. With his heightened sensitivity, he can zero in on just what will sting the most.

It used to be the double standards that got to me most but I'm starting to recognize more how that is projection. The less I feed that monster by validating those thoughts, the less it rears it's ugly head. Now I focus more on the root of what he's really saying and validate the more rational feelings. Hard to do but easier than dealing with the hypocrisy.

[BorderlineMagnet]

Manipulation sucks too. Just today I received a phone call from one of my BPD ex gf's asking if I wanted to work on things when she got out of her latest stab at rehab (what is it, the fourth try I think?). She had this friendly, yet desperate tone to her voice. When I flat out said no I hear her voice change to this icey cold, venomous tone and she said "whatever" and as I was going to explain to her why (never told her about the BPD ex after her, 2 in a row is too much for me), she hung up on me. It's obvious that I was just a need for her, and she thought her tone of voice could manipulate me into thinking otherwise. Sorry girl, I speak BPD now. Not fooling me.

[almost789]

1.Gaslighting, thats REALLY difficult because if you actually get trully gaslighted you question your own reality. I had a very bizzare day after he gaslighted me. I don't think I have ever felt that way before and it took hours to come back to my reality.

2.Projection: seems to be common practice now. Interesting, yes. What they call you is what they hate about themselves. I don't know how to deal with it, I've been kind of acknowleding it in a sense, like ok if you say so, I see, or something like that, then dropping it and asking to move on... .  that dissapates the rage on his part, but not sure that's the right way to deal with it. At least I don't flip out in anger anymore and throw it right back in his face. Hahaha... .  that didn't help.

3. Silent treatment... .  hahah thats a piece of cake now! It doesn't bother me all that much anymore. I have been through weeks and weeks of silence with him. I'm used to it. Funny, he doesn't do it anymore much either.

[Chazz]

To me I think it was

-push/pull and its more-of-the-same version breakup/makeup

-contradictions saying A then B then C doing D meaning E ( https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=187665.0;topicseen )

-self centeredness or 'un-we-ness'. I lacked the continuity and consistency of a 'we' feeling, and accompanying security of the r/s. Had that in episodes only.

There was also an 'on-the-brink' quality in the r/s not mentioned here that I felt; her beeing either in the r/s or out of it, but mostly balancing just right there perfectly in between, on the edge of being in/out - 'on-the-brink'. I felt oftentimes I had to 'win her minute by minute'. VERY stressful

yeah well... .  the craze of it all... .  rollercoaster... .  on-off... .  

/Careman

Constantly being on the "edge of being in/out"... .  AMEN ! ! ! !

[Nearlybroken]

The hardest symptom for me (not that any of them are easy to live with) is the lying.Utter pointless lies... .  to me and about me.I also struggle with the fact that he feels he can express his (distorted ) opinions but when I attempt to convey my point of view he just switches off... .  makes me feel like I am not worth listening too.Mind you... .  maybe I should be grateful for those times because when he does listen he invariably reacts with yet more distortion and anger.It sounds dramatic but I feel like I am trapped in a nightmare.

[enough abuse]

OMG, I can relate to all these... .  definatly lying, +++ refusing medical and psy treatment, denial they have a problem and try to convince anyone they can every behavior of theirs... .  is really you... .  manipulation, push pull... .  put others in a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't situation. 

My prayers for all families dealing with a family member with BPD and or narcissism... .  

[luckyduck]

I can relate to everything but my absolute biggest peeve as others have said is the lying.  Flat out, look me in the face LIES!  I don't know how to handle it! UGH!

[whereisthezen]

Lying is bad!

What took me by surprise for last few months was realizing their was a whole web of lies and deceipt.

White lies I'm ok with but deceptive lies oh that makes reality into an uncomfortable place for me. Best thing is telling myself the truth, listening out for the truth, opening up to projections so I can hear what the real issues going on are and of course going to Coda meetings. Which I'm overdue on and going wed/thurs so need it.

Byasilver verbal abuse is horrendous. Not loud voices shouting it is foul and deep and disturbing so I definitely see that as a big  in bod r/s's too.

BLM manipulation occurs in a lot of the behaviors you generalized it well, projection, lying, gas lighting, mirroring, it all has a hint of manipulation. I hope you are doing well?

[Bananas]

All.  But the dissmissiveness hurts me the most. 

[whereisthezen]

Bananas,

Dismissive on your feelings? Events? Communication?

[Bananas]

Bananas,

Dismissive on your feelings? Events? Communication?

All of the above.  I could write a novel.

Feelings:

The closer we got the more that feelings I had he dismissed or ignored.  "You don't love me".  "you have no right to be angry", "why are you sad just get over it,", "you are crazy", even when we were together and having a good day, "it makes me sick that you are so happy all the time".  As the relationship progressed, it seemed as though if I kept things on a superficial level he was fine.

Events:

Any "good" prolonged intimiate periods were followed by him going silent for days.  He would just disappear.  So I felt as if the time we spent together was dismissed.  And anything "bad" and argument, he would just sweep under the rug.  It didn't happen.   

Communication:

To this day he has not talked to me face to face about anything to do with our "breakup". (basically he moved on, didn't tell me, I found out from a third party).  When I tried to communicate with him about what was going on I got one very angry phone call about "how I was acting like a crazy person and ruined his life" then a few dismissive emails and texts pretty much, "get over it, I moved on, I have nothing to say, I owe you no explanation, the only thing I can do is forget the whole deal."

   

When I see him (we work together) he either ignores me completely or tries to talk to me like everything is normal and we are "best friends".  And this can switch up by the hour.

 


 

[MammaMia]

It never ceases to amaze me how the symptoms of BPD are so exact in everyone who has it. 

It is a difficult... . no... . impossible disorder.  One must love a pwBPD unconditionally and put up with their bs or move on.

Take care to protect yourself from the abuse that goes hand-in-hand with this illness.  We are not stupid, crazy, or a list of other negatives.  That is their perception.  Do not fall for it.

[qwaszx]

for me its the lies(really pointless lies), and manipulation, that she has to be in control of everything! 

[BlushAndBashful]

I don't even know how to answer this, because I still get riled up over all of it.

The lies. OMG the lies. The quantity and quality and the varying shades of truth. Pathological.

The push/pull.

The lukewarm "friends" mode- he would dole out the medium chill at random.

The compartmentalization (I was never allowed near his friends or family)

Passive aggressive behavior

Refusal to seek help (coupled with lying about getting help or taking his meds)

Inability to have an actual disagreement or debate- he just agreed with everything I said.

Inability to state his own wants, needs, and desires. (And then I was "controlling"

Smear campaigns - I had never heard of them, but OH BOY did I live them

Gaslighting

Changing his mind on a dime about issues he was 100% positive, hard-core, fully-on-board for. Or against.

But I think the hardest symptom for me to deal with is the fact that he IS both. He is both Jekyll and Hyde. He is both wonderful and devious. I had thought he was an amazing man who happened to have an occasional slip. I thought with enough communication or work, we could get through those little obstacles. Almost like a physical health condition- where they are great 95% of the time until they (have a seizure, don't take their insulin, get stung by a bee and have an allergic reaction, etc).  If he were just a jerk, I would have kicked him to the curb long ago. If he were as great as he sometimes was, he would have been a keeper. If he was just an average guy with normal ups and downs... . well, I wouldn't be here. It's very hard to accept that one person can be on both extreme ends of the spectrum. 

[mobala]

Everything. The way he acknowledges and understands what he does when he is in his "good place" (his words), the way he inevitably forgets all that as soon as he is triggered by (anything... .   ANYTHING) he feels offended by.

The exhaustion of it all. The way it it is sucking the life from me.

The insanity of trying couples therapy, only to watch him present his wounded, misunderstood persona, that I sadly watch the counselor get sucked into while admonishing me how better to communicate in less "fighting words" (yah I know, I read that couples counseling would likely not be effective but still wanted to try).

You know what my "fighting word" was today? I said the word... .   never. 45 minutes wasted of my life debating my choosing the word,NEVER, because it made him feel devalued. THIS... .   while he expects understanding for everything because "I know how he is".

I feel like banging my head against the wall with the absurdity of it all. The insanity. I am existing (yes... .   right word... .   NOT living... .   ) in a world of bizarre reality.

And then he demands that I verbally say I am not going to leave him while I am in yet another throe of this twisted reality.

You know what the hardest thing is? Not mattering. Having it be all about him. His blindness to it all. Worried... .   seriously worried... .   that I am with a crazy person.

OMG, I can soo much relate to your post. With exception of word "never#... . for me it was "no". I'll not sleep on the couch, I'm going to bed.

And also for me... . the hardest- to be painted black. ALL the time... . EVERY DAY for the last year.

We're together for ten years and I did leave him last year, because it was impossible to be in a relationship like that... . but now... . now our R is mental institution without medication or help.

[HazelJade]

- Expecting me to read his mind and punishing me when I don't read it well enough or quickly enough.

- Silence treatment.

- Projections.

- And this: (still very hard to accept for me)

He is both Jekyll and Hyde. He is both wonderful and devious. ... . It's very hard to accept that one person can be on both extreme ends of the spectrum. 

[Mr Bean]

It's tough to say, but for me the worst of it is that I'm the only one who realizes what she does. Her friends and my family all see her as the sweetest, most wonderful person imaginable. They don't understand her splitting behavior, or the emotional abuse, or her projective or exaggerated behaviors. I'm sure her friends think our relationship fell apart almost exclusively because of me, and my family just thinks she's completely innocent in general. It all makes me feel completely alone in this battle.

Damn it. Your story is similar to mine.

[Mr Bean]

For me lying, lack of empathy, selfish, controlling and abusive.

[SadWifeofBPD]

The Splitting is the worst.  Being "split black" for the most minor things (or non-issues) is unbelievable because then he throws every attack at me (cheating, lying, bad wife, bad mother, etc).  And during those times, he gets on the phone with his relatives (who live far away and I haven't seen in over 7 years) and he says all these horrible things (cheating, etc) and they BELIEVE him.  So, then they hate me, too... . based on lies.

I once read my H's notes from a T session while I was "painted black".  One thing he said to his T was: "my family can't understand why I'm still married to her, and they know her."   I confronted him about that because not only does his family not know me, they have only spent 4-5 times with me in 30 years!     All short periods (like Christmas) and I was an excellent guest.  I asked him how his family could "know me," and he wouldn't answer.  The fact is that all they know is the lies he tells them when he has split me black.  That's when I'm Hitler's Sister. 

I am expected to be PERFECT.  I once asked my H to name 5 "flaws" that I'm "allowed" to have that he won't bug me about. (and I meant minor things).  He couldn't/wouldn't name any because he doesn't want me to have any flaws.  But, he denied that he expects perfection.  

[MammaMia]

Sadwife

As we all know, BPD affects the part of the brain that controls these emotions (or lack of).  But it sounds as if you were actually able to discuss his accusations with your husband.  That in itself is amazing.  I hope it gave him something to think about.  They do that when they think no one is looking, you know!  They replay conversations over and over in their head.

My pwBPD is not a spouse but an adult child and I do not live with him.  I seriously doubt I could handle what you and others with BPD spouses go through on a daily basis.  The verbal abuse is so demoralizing and demeaning.  It is just plain cruel.

It takes a very strong person to rationalize it is the illness speaking and to deal with it on such an intimate level.  You and others in your situation deserve our respect and compassion.

[SadWifeofBPD]

As we all know, BPD affects the part of the brain that controls these emotions (or lack of).  But it sounds as if you were actually able to discuss his accusations with your husband.  That in itself is amazing.  I hope it gave him something to think about.  They do that when they think no one is looking, you know!  They replay conversations over and over in their head.

H has told me many times that his family doesn't think that I cheated on him.  But, when I ask him how he cleared that up, he wouldn't answer.  The fact is that he has told them that many times.  How can he then later say, "Uh, I made it all up"?   That's why I don't believe him.  If he had "cleared things up" with them, then they'd know never to believe him.  but, they do believe everything he says about me.  The funny thing is when I'm "white" again, then he raves about how awesome I am, and they still don't understand that he has a serious problem. 

[MammaMia]

Depending on how your husband treats his family and his history with them, they may know more than they are letting on.  If he is truly BPD, he has probably been so for a long time.

Has he acted this way through your entire marriage?  Do you know at what age he was diagnosed?

Perhaps they are aware something is wrong but do not want to make it their problem by recognizing that he is sick.

[em754]

Lying! It's the lying!

So much of this disorder revolves around lying! Gas-lighting, distortion campaigns, painting their victim(s) black and white, etc.

They lie to avoid shame.

They lie to avoid responsibility.

They lie to avoid reality.

They lie to receive attention.

They lie in order to appear as someone they are not.

They lie to make you appear as someone you are not.

Lies. So many lies.

This is it in a nutshell, everything flows on from the lying!

[qwaszx]

i changed my mind, for me the biggest isnt the lies(i normally know when shes lying anyways) its the detaching and disappearing when shes suicidal, it scares the hell out of me... . not knowing if shes ok or if shes gone to far this time... . ahh!

[SadWifeofBPD]

Depending on how your husband treats his family and his history with them, they may know more than they are letting on.  If he is truly BPD, he has probably been so for a long time.

Has he acted this way through your entire marriage?  Do you know at what age he was diagnosed?

Perhaps they are aware something is wrong but do not want to make it their problem by recognizing that he is sick.

H was a VERY difficult child, but his family's memory seems to have faded about that.  For nearly 22 years, H has had little-to-no contact with his family, so it does seem like they have forgotten.   About 7 years ago, he began contacting them on and off (when he had painted me black) to tell them that I had been unfaithful, etc).  This set theiir minds to hate me. 

Their words to him suggest that they believe everything he says.   

[KellyO]

Did any of you experience  this: You are asked what you want (to do, to eat, have, whatever... . ) and you tell. Your PD gets angry because you gave wrong answer! You were expected to know what PD wants and want the same thing too, but of course PD never told what they wanted. So now you are selfish and unloving and care only about yourself. They are nice people because they definitely asked what you want, so how could THEY be selfish?

I never found out way to cope with that. It was just always a brain-bleed moment for me. It's like... . can't they see that other people are separated from them and do not read minds?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Did any of you experience  this: You are asked what you want (to do, to eat, have, whatever... . ) and you tell. Your PD gets angry because you gave wrong answer! You were expected to know what PD wants and want the same thing too, but of course PD never told what they wanted. So now you are selfish and unloving and care only about yourself. They are nice people because they definitely asked what you want, so how could THEY be selfish?

I never found out way to cope with that. It was just always a brain-bleed moment for me. It's like... . can't they see that other people are separated from them and do not read minds?

I haven't experienced that, but this was common for me... .

H RARELY ever suggested doing/going anywhere unless it was a golfing for him.  So, it was always up to me to get "something going" (vacatiion, going to the movies, etc).   I would ask him if X vacation destination was ok, and he'd say, "yes."  I'd ask him if there was anything particular he wanted to do there, and he'd say "plan it."  Then I'd look up site-seeing locations, etc, and plan the intinerary.  I would frequently bring him the print out of what I had planned and request that he "look it over" and provide input or change requests.  He would typically throw the papers aside and say that he'd look at them later.  I would later repeat the request and get the same answer. Then the trip would come and he'd complain that I controlled the whole trip!

[MammaMia]

qwaszx

You are absolutely right.  The suicide threats and disappearing are #1  on the "torture list" without a doubt.  Everything else pales in comparison.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Has he acted this way through your entire marriage?  Do you know at what age he was diagnosed?

At the beginning of our relationship, there were some odd "red flags", but they weren't frequent enough for me to realize the seriousness.  

After we were married and living together, conflicts appeared more frequently, but still not like they've occurred the last 5-10 years.   The last 6 years and the last 2 years have been ridiculous.  

Sometime around 10 years ago, H became an alcoholic which made things worse.  About 5 years ago, his drinking got worse.  Within the last 2 years it's gotten much worse.  He went to rehab last fall for a couple of months, but started drinking again soon after.  

We've been living apart for a couple of months now.  He claims that he hasn't drank at all for about a month (of course he claims that being away from me is the reason he's sober.  )

As for his diagnosis... . While in rehab for 2 months, his psychiatrist (wrongly) Dx'd him with Dependent PD because during that time he portrayed himself as this poor little lamb, the nicest guy in the world, who has been so mistreated and controlled by his cruel evil wife.     When my sister (a T) saw the written Dx, she immediately said that they Dx is wrong (sister has known H for 30 years and has spent a gazillion hours with us and has witnessed his rages.     Up until that Dx, my sister had been politely hesitant to mention what is wrong with H.  but once the "jig was up" and he'd been Dx'd Axis II, sister said that he has BPD with some NPD traits.   She said that the psychiatrist made a common mistake because the P had only seen H for a few weeks (but Axis II came thru loud and clear) and that the P was completely unaware of H's rages.   A critical difference between BPD and DPD is the anger/rages and H "hid" those symptoms from the P (since he only saw the P for such a short time).  

[KellyO]

H RARELY ever suggested doing/going anywhere unless it was a golfing for him.  So, it was always up to me to get "something going" (vacatiion, going to the movies, etc).   I would ask him if X vacation destination was ok, and he'd say, "yes."  I'd ask him if there was anything particular he wanted to do there, and he'd say "plan it."  Then I'd look up site-seeing locations, etc, and plan the intinerary.  I would frequently bring him the print out of what I had planned and request that he "look it over" and provide input or change requests.  He would typically throw the papers aside and say that he'd look at them later.  I would later repeat the request and get the same answer. Then the trip would come and he'd complain that I controlled the whole trip!

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent. In this example he overlooking everything you try to make him see gives him what he wants: he can feel himself controlled and he can blaim you. If this would be one time with a person, it could be accident, but this is a pattern, right?.  I was expert in this myself, doing passive-aggressive stunts like this in my life! Yep, codependents are not sunshines either.

If you would tell him he does this, he would go in fullblown rage or whatever he does to make the situtation go away, and would never admit he has done anything wrong. You could have tried harder, he says! When people do this it is subconsious, but they really do it. They make sure they get the situations that reinforce their view, their believes, their twisted logic. You see you did try all you can to make him contribute, he has wiped it out from his mind because it serves his purpose: feeling being controlled. He does feel controlled, it is true. It is totally unvisible to him that he made the situation from thin air to serve his need to fight against "controlling you", and to mask the thruth about himself.

[VeryFree]

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent.

Just a daily ritual with my stbxBPDw:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, but we have abc in the fridge and we should use that.

Me: Okay, but why ask me?

She: ... .

Day 2:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Do we have something in the house that should be used now?

She: No, not really.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, I'd rather make abc.

Me: Okay, but why ask me, why don't answer to my first question?

She: ... .

Day 3:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: I really don't care either, why don't you propose something?

She: I allways have to figure out what to do for dinner. You never think along, you're just blablabla... . and there would be no dinner.

[empathic]

Just a daily ritual with my stbxBPDw:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, but we have abc in the fridge and we should use that.

Me: Okay, but why ask me?

She: ... .

Yes, I got this a lot also. I guess they get some kick out of power and control, getting to be the one who decides. The one who expresses a desire first "loses".

I think I heard somewhere that as a negotiation strategy you should never make a first offer (like when discussing salary etc) because the one who goes second always gets the upper hand.

In my case, I try to distinguish what is her BPD traits and what is the effects of her growing up with an NPD brother (eventhough I really shouldn't have to care about that). In this case, it might be the effects of growing up in a household where nobody respected your wishes - i.e. she had to grab what she wanted (but it doesn't make it any easier on me).

[VeryFree]

Yes, I got this a lot also. I guess they get some kick out of power and control, getting to be the one who decides. The one who expresses a desire first "loses".

I think I heard somewhere that as a negotiation strategy you should never make a first offer (like when discussing salary etc) because the one who goes second always gets the upper hand.

That sounds true.

Negotiating often is about reason and about trying to come to a mutual understanding. Two things that are hard for a a BPD.

I saw it in trying for a settlement: did a very good offer, she refused and made a ridiculous counteroffer. I refused, but adapted my offer so it would be closer to her demands. Again she refused and demanded even more.

No reason, not wanting to come to solutions, just controling.

[aviator7]

1.  :)enial - I would bring up concerns (whether about his daughter, mom, his behavior or thought process, etc... . ) and give factual, valid, points and he would make excuses and say that I was "crazy" for saying any of it and then would lead to... .

2.  Projection - HE would tell me: "you have anger issues, a christian wouldn't say those things, you hate my mom, you say mean things about my daughter, you are unaccountable, you are always the victim", which leads to... .

3.  Splitting - then he would bring up everything from the starting point of our relationship on as validation to demonize me as I was such a crazy, hateful person... .

4. Push/Pull - I guess in the onset it was extremely devastating and confusing, after a while I became used to it, but it still was degrading and made me feel invisible, disrespected, and devalued

[SadWifeofBPD]

H RARELY ever suggested doing/going anywhere unless it was a golfing for him.  So, it was always up to me to get "something going" (vacatiion, going to the movies, etc).   I would ask him if X vacation destination was ok, and he'd say, "yes."  I'd ask him if there was anything particular he wanted to do there, and he'd say "plan it."  Then I'd look up site-seeing locations, etc, and plan the intinerary.  I would frequently bring him the print out of what I had planned and request that he "look it over" and provide input or change requests.  He would typically throw the papers aside and say that he'd look at them later.  I would later repeat the request and get the same answer. Then the trip would come and he'd complain that I controlled the whole trip!

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent. In this example he overlooking everything you try to make him see gives him what he wants: he can feel himself controlled and he can blaim you. If this would be one time with a person, it could be accident, but this is a pattern, right?.  I was expert in this myself, doing passive-aggressive stunts like this in my life! Yep, codependents are not sunshines either.

If you would tell him he does this, he would go in fullblown rage or whatever he does to make the situtation go away, and would never admit he has done anything wrong. You could have tried harder, he says! When people do this it is subconsious, but they really do it. They make sure they get the situations that reinforce their view, their believes, their twisted logic. You see you did try all you can to make him contribute, he has wiped it out from his mind because it serves his purpose: feeling being controlled. He does feel controlled, it is true. It is totally unvisible to him that he made the situation from thin air to serve his need to fight against "controlling you", and to mask the thruth about himself.

I think you've nailed it.

I also think that my H never planned things because then if anything went wrong, he could say, "well, you planned this. you screwed up.  I would have done things differently".

I do think it's telling that he only plans things for himself (golf outings, trips to the gym, etc).  When the kids were young, he never suggested any kind of family outings.   

I also think that golfing serves some kind of release for him.  H has a very powerful long drive.  So powerful that people will watch him.  I now suspect that the power behind his drives is from his anger. 

[MammaMia]

I agree with all of you that control is key.  PwBPD never want advice.  They ask for it and then immediately counter with their own suggestions.  If WE make the decision, it is always the dumbest suggestion ever.  What are we... . morons?

The other thing that drives me nuts is when it is impossible to get a simple  answer.  Ask a question... . any question, even a yes or no question, and the reply is "I don't know" followed by rage if questioned further.

I have also learned that if they do make a decision, they will change their minds at least 3 times.  The first decision is rarely, if ever, what they really want. Sometimes they circle back and claim our suggestion as their own.  When that happens, I just say "great idea, why didn't I think of that?"... . (?).  So predictable.

It is a no win situation... . just one of so many with BPD.

[VeryFree]

The other thing that drives me nuts is when it is impossible to get a simple  answer.  Ask a question... . any question, even a yes or no question, and the reply is "I don't know" followed by rage if questioned further.

In my experience questions, simple and more complicated, almost always were answered with a question. Never just a straight answer, always a counter-question.

[SadWifeofBPD]

PwBPD never want advice. 

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.   

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

[VeryFree]

So true SadWife.

The problems in my stbx's life always were because of others: her boss, her mother, a T, a neighbour, friends, me.

In 10 years she never has said once something was her own fault.

[SadWifeofBPD]

So true SadWife.

The problems in my stbx's life always were because of others: her boss, her mother, a T, a neighbour, friends, me.

In 10 years she never has said once something was her own fault.

The only things that H has ever said were his fault were things that either weren't a big deal or there was no way he could blame someone else.  However, if there was any possible way he could blame someone else, he would.


There is one other thing that is so difficult with being with a pwBPD... .   A normal person understands that relationships have "good times" and "bad times".  They understand that marriages have "ups" and "downs".     Although my H would never admit it, his behavior/reactions indicated that he thought that a "good" relationship only has "good times".   Any "bad times" were a sign to him that the relationship shouldn't exist anymore and should end.  And when he felt that way, he didn't have the maturity to understand that his feelings of the moment would pass.  Instead he believed that the feeling of that moment was permanent and wouldn't change.  And, everytime his feelings did change, he acted "surprised" and would say, "I didn't believe that I would feel differently"  (and he never learned from these changes of mindset that would happen year after year after year.)   

[waverider]

H RARELY ever suggested doing/going anywhere unless it was a golfing for him.  So, it was always up to me to get "something going" (vacatiion, going to the movies, etc).   I would ask him if X vacation destination was ok, and he'd say, "yes."  I'd ask him if there was anything particular he wanted to do there, and he'd say "plan it."  Then I'd look up site-seeing locations, etc, and plan the intinerary.  I would frequently bring him the print out of what I had planned and request that he "look it over" and provide input or change requests.  He would typically throw the papers aside and say that he'd look at them later.  I would later repeat the request and get the same answer. Then the trip would come and he'd complain that I controlled the whole trip!

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent. In this example he overlooking everything you try to make him see gives him what he wants: he can feel himself controlled and he can blaim you. If this would be one time with a person, it could be accident, but this is a pattern, right?.  I was expert in this myself, doing passive-aggressive stunts like this in my life! Yep, codependents are not sunshines either.

If you would tell him he does this, he would go in fullblown rage or whatever he does to make the situtation go away, and would never admit he has done anything wrong. You could have tried harder, he says! When people do this it is subconsious, but they really do it. They make sure they get the situations that reinforce their view, their believes, their twisted logic. You see you did try all you can to make him contribute, he has wiped it out from his mind because it serves his purpose: feeling being controlled. He does feel controlled, it is true. It is totally unvisible to him that he made the situation from thin air to serve his need to fight against "controlling you", and to mask the thruth about himself.

I think you've nailed it.

I also think that my H never planned things because then if anything went wrong, he could say, "well, you planned this. you screwed up.  I would have done things differently".

I do think it's telling that he only plans things for himself (golf outings, trips to the gym, etc).  When the kids were young, he never suggested any kind of family outings.   

I also think that golfing serves some kind of release for him.  H has a very powerful long drive.  So powerful that people will watch him.  I now suspect that the power behind his drives is from his anger. 

I think what you have here is behavior they cant change, but they need validation, as we all do. In order to validate themselves they subconciously create situations that provide it

eg. They have a fear of being controlled. They cant overcome that fear. If you are not actually controlling them, they will create a scenario that will enable them to show that you are, hence validating their fear. So that fear is justified and not their fault.

[waverider]

So true SadWife.

The problems in my stbx's life always were because of others: her boss, her mother, a T, a neighbour, friends, me.

In 10 years she never has said once something was her own fault.

The only things that H has ever said were his fault were things that either weren't a big deal or there was no way he could blame someone else.  However, if there was any possible way he could blame someone else, he would.


There is one other thing that is so difficult with being with a pwBPD... .   A normal person understands that relationships have "good times" and "bad times".  They understand that marriages have "ups" and "downs".     Although my H would never admit it, his behavior/reactions indicated that he thought that a "good" relationship only has "good times".   Any "bad times" were a sign to him that the relationship shouldn't exist anymore and should end.  And when he felt that way, he didn't have the maturity to understand that his feelings of the moment would pass.  Instead he believed that the feeling of that moment was permanent and wouldn't change.  And, everytime his feelings did change, he acted "surprised" and would say, "I didn't believe that I would feel differently"  (and he never learned from these changes of mindset that would happen year after year after year.)   

This is a kind of stuck in the mood of moment issue. How they feel now is how they always have and always will be. They cant seem to acknowledge their own extreme cycling mood changes. So if things are bad extreme depression can set in as it all becomes pointless there is no good future round the corner. I think this is the thinking that can create suicidal thoughts. when things are good over optimistic impossible plans and promises are made.

The other aspect this has is they revise history to validate how they feel now. So recollections are inconsistent. Also plans/ future projections change based on the now. Plans are made then broken as the mood changes. This creates a lack of productivity, and hence low sense of achievement/ self worth.

[waverider]

PwBPD never want advice. 

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.   

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

Not really asking for advice, only validation for their own decisions.

I get this all the time. This is where the use of SET comes into its best use.

It is one of the easiest traps to fall into though.

[SadWifeofBPD]

PwBPD never want advice. 

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.   

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

Not really asking for advice, only validation for their own decisions.

I get this all the time. This is where the use of SET comes into its best use.

It is one of the easiest traps to fall into though.

Right. 

So, what would be the correct SET response be?

[qwaszx]

This is subconsiousness in work = they are making sure these situations where they can blame others from being controlling, selfish, unloving, you name it, come up and are frequent.

Just a daily ritual with my stbxBPDw:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, but we have abc in the fridge and we should use that.

Me: Okay, but why ask me?

She: ... .

Day 2:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: Do we have something in the house that should be used now?

She: No, not really.

Me: Okay, let's make xyz.

She: Oh, I'd rather make abc.

Me: Okay, but why ask me, why don't answer to my first question?

She: ... .

Day 3:

She: What are we going to make for dinner?

Me: Did you have anything in mind or wanted something special?

She: I really don't care, you say it.

Me: I really don't care either, why don't you propose something?

She: I allways have to figure out what to do for dinner. You never think along, you're just blablabla... . and there would be no dinner.

yeah, that's me and my friend also

Her: wanta watch a moive?

Me: alright, what one? you pick.

Her: you can pick this time:)

Me: *goes to the movie rack and brings back one or two I'd like* ok how about one of these?

Her: no, im not in the mood for those ones.

Me: ok, it doesn't really matter to me, what are you in the mood for then? you pick.

Her: ok, well lets watch this one

Me: alright:)  well then why do you ask me?

or

Her: wanta watch a movie?

Me: ok, you pick

Her: you can this time

Me:  *goes to the movie rack and brings back one or two I'd like* ok how about one of these?

Her: no, im not in the mood for those ones but you can watch one of those if you'd like, I'm going to bed

Me: ummm, well I don't care what we watch, you can pick, or aww I don't want you to feel like you have to leave cuz we don't want to watch the same movie, it doesn't really matter to me.

Her: no, im tired anyways, this way you can watch what you want and I can watch what I want:)

Me: O.o but its only 530... .

Her: yeah your right it is, *goes to bed*

[BlushAndBashful]

I think I changed my mind on the hardest symptom.

BESIDES all the stuff I had written down (lying, compartmentalization, etc) and random goodies I've thought about (circular arguments)... . I think the thing that kept me struggling was that he is SO high functioning and rages inward. Everything is extremely covert and hidden and done behind my back. He never raged. He rarely was caught painting me black. He was well liked in the community. Stuff would bug me, but I didn't know why. I thought I was a bad communicator, or I said something wrong, or I was going crazy. The extremely subtle abuse was like walking through a cobweb and feeling it cling to your face - you could feel it, but you couldn't see it or pinpoint it, you couldn't remove it, and after a while you think you are imagining it.  I never thought he had a problem. I'd like to think I would have run like a bat out of hell if he would have shown me 1% of the craziness.  It's also been hard trying to heal, because a lot on this forum focuses on all these red flags we supposedly chose to ignore and why we were attracted to our pwBPD's dysfunction. Hell, I would have never put the word "dysfunction" and my ex in the same sentence- at least for the first few years.

[leftbehind]

Cheating, Lying, push/pull, and detachment after intimacy.  All suck bad.

[waverider]

PwBPD never want advice.

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.  

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

Not really asking for advice, only validation for their own decisions.

I get this all the time. This is where the use of SET comes into its best use.

It is one of the easiest traps to fall into though.

Right.  

So, what would be the correct SET response be?

Listen to what they want to do, let them explain why they want to do what they want to do. Agree that is one option they can take to do whatever is they want to do (S&E). As that is the validation they where after in the first place. You are neither agreeing or disagreeing whether it is a good option, just acknowledging that it is an option

The truth part is not about telling them what they should or shouldn't do but rather how you might consider doing things if it was you in that position. In this instance it would be along the lines of "if I took those things late in the day I probably would have difficulty sleeping, but that's me".

You are not saying what they should do, but rather what you wouldn't do. Make it about you not them.

They may well say, well "I'm me, not you". Thats fair enough, you still cant make them do anything, but neither can you be accused of telling them what to do, but you have aired the option, in a non controlling way. Assuming of course its not all said in a patronizing tone.

Not saying it will work, often nothing works, but the odds are better than falling for the trap of "I think you should do XYZ"

[SadWifeofBPD]

PwBPD never want advice.

My H would ask for advice, and as long as my advice didn't involve something that he was doing wrong or should be doing, he was fine with it.  However, if my advice meant that he had to change a behavior or something like that, he'd get mad.  

For instance, if he took his Adderall late in the day along with caffeine and then complain that he couldn't get to sleep that night, if I said, "well, you shouldn't take Adderall in the afternoon," he'd get very angry for "blaming him" when he wanted to believe that he was just having "bad luck".   H always wants to believe that "the world is "$h1t*** on him," and none of it is his fault.  In truth, he sabotaged himself on a daily basis.

Not really asking for advice, only validation for their own decisions.

I get this all the time. This is where the use of SET comes into its best use.

It is one of the easiest traps to fall into though.

Right.  

So, what would be the correct SET response be?

Listen to what they want to do, let them explain why they want to do what they want to do. Agree that is one option they can take to do whatever is they want to do (S&E). As that is the validation they where after in the first place.

You are neither agreeing or disagreeing whether it is a good option, just acknowledging that it is an option

The truth part is not about telling them what they should or shouldn't do but rather how you might consider doing things if it was you in that position. In this instance it would be along the lines of "if I took those things late in the day I probably would have difficulty sleeping, but that's me".

You are not saying what they should do, but rather what you wouldn't do. Make it about you not them.

They may well say, well "I'm me, not you". Thats fair enough, you still cant make them do anything, but neither can you be accused of telling them what to do, but you have aired the option, in a non controlling way. Assuming of course its not all said in a patronizing tone.

Not saying it will work, often nothing works, but the odds are better than falling for the trap of "I think you should do XYZ"

You are neither agreeing or disagreeing whether it is a good option, just acknowledging that it is an option

Yes, I've done that.  And, later when there's a bad result, I get blamed because he told me his plan, and the fact that I didn't suggest something better, means that the bad result is MY fault.

Often, H isn't really asking for advice, he's just whining that "I'm doing everything right, but I'm still (tired, painful muscles, hip hurts, etc)".   H loves to say, "I'm doing everything right, but (insert complaint here)."   But, the truth is he's doing plenty of things wrong:  drinking too much, taking his meds wrong, working-out too much so muscles hurt, going to bed too late, etc.  Yet, he's whining that he's "done everything right, but the world is $hitting on him."   In good conscience, I can't agree with him that he's done everything right, since he's likely done at least 2-3 things wrong that contributed to his tiredness, painful muscles, etc.   If I say nothing, that also ANNOYS him.  He wants me to say something like, "Yes, the world picks on you.  You're doing everything perfectly.  For some reason, things work out for others, but the world hates you so it makes your life miserable."    I just can't do that. 

[waverider]

You cant reassure and fix everything, only state things in the least provocative way.

How they take it is their problem.

The fact that YOU know you haven't provoked anything, been disrespecting, or invalidating, means you have done your best. So YOU can absolve yourself of responsibility or guilt.

This comes back to Radical acceptance, accepting you cant fix all their issues, that their issues are ultimately their responsibility, that is the disorder. You did your bit, you didn't make it any worse. It is what it is. You are not left thinking what else can i do, because you did it.

If it escalates you disengage or even leave the vicinity if you have to, its no longer your problem.

After you have used SET you do not have the obligation to be the eternal rescuer. It is about YOU knowing what the right thing to do is, not trying to conform to what they think is the right thing... . That is the path towards the proverbial eggshells.

My partner is a self destructive hypochondriac so I do know where you are coming from, and that you cannot ever appease them. It is hard to pull back and watch them screw their lives up unnecessarily, but that is ultimately their choice, frustrating as it is.

Their mind is disordered, mine is not, so their perceptions cannot override mine. I will not give in to any resultant attempts at a guilt trip

[SadWifeofBPD]

You cant reassure and fix everything, only state things in the least provocative way.

Very true.  My sister, a T, has observed many of these situations.  She has concluded that H thinks I'm "all-powerful, all-knowing, and can control the behavior of others/events" so if anything goes wrong, it's my fault.  H has even raged at me when other adults make other choices (vacation times, etc), as if I can "make" another family change/cancel their vacation plans because their schedule negatively affects him/us?  

For many years, I thought it was a compliment when H would say things like, "that's why I married you" whenever I did something smart, clever, money-saving, etc.  What I didn't realize that it was very literally true, he married me because he thought I was perfect and could do all, know all, fix all, etc.  So, when I'm human (imperfect, can't control others, etc), then I've FAILED.  

H's mother did the most minimum for her children.  My own T believes that H's mom had NPD.   I guess he picked me as some kind of mother-replacement, which he believes should be able to "do it all" and always perfectly.

I just don't know how to do/say things in a less-provacative way.  I often feel like I can't win either way.  I'm accused of saying too much, saying too little, appearing distant, appearing controlling, etc. 

[waverider]

Doesn't matter what you are accused of, as long as you have the insight and objectivity to take it on board, see for yourself if there is any merit in it and take it for what it is.

I rarely dismiss my partners opinions on face value assuming them to be faulty, as there is often a grain of truth. That is why they can be so convincing as they do often contain an element of truth it's just the application of "their" truths that faulty

You could say my partner has forced me to take a good look at myself and not get away with a lot of stuff regular folks would let slide.

Using the S & E part has taught me a lot, whereas previously I would have arrogantly outright dismissed their issues as silly.

We are not always right.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Doesn't matter what you are accused of, as long as you have the insight and objectivity to take it on board, see for yourself if there is any merit in it and take it for what it is.

I agree.  And, if there is a "grain of truth" or more than a grain of truth, I certainly repect that and admit it.  Of course we're not always right.  We're human and make mistakes.  The problem is when a mistake is just a human "boo boo" and not intentional, the pwBBD will accuse you of doing it "on purpose."   I once called my H while he was on a business trip and forgot about the "2 hour time change" and woke him up.  It was an innocent mistake and I quickly apologized.  No, that wasn't good enough.  I had committed the huge sin of waking him up.  And, he kept accusing me of doing it "on purpose."  So, yes, there was a "grain of truth" that I had woke him up (which I apologized for), but it wasn't done on purpose!

More to the point, when the "punishment" (raging) doesn't fit the "crime", then that becomes a problem.  A minor "oops" shouldn't warrant raging and 3 days of the silent treatment (because that breeds "walking on eggshells".   Or when there isn't any grain of truth, but only the pwBPD's insecurities going on so raging ensues, then that becomes a problem. 

[MammaMia]

Reading all the posts about circular arguments reminds me that we are all in the same boat.  AND it has a hole in the bottom.  Sometimes we can bail fast enough to stay afloat and sometimes we start to sink.  

I have found there is no hard and fast rule with circular arguments.  What works on one occasion may not work the next.  Everything depends on how THEY react... . how upset they are, what the topic is, how many times the same argument has been revisited, what has been tried in the past to resolve issues, etc.  The list goes on and on.  It is all about them.  Even when they dismiss our solicited point of view or suggestion as to what we would do, even when we commisurate and validate, even when we praise them for coming up with a solution on their own, there is no guarantee they will follow through.  Sometimes they will do the exact opposite.

While they often reject our attempts to help, it gives them things to think about, and I believe they do consider all the options.  They want our input but find it condescending and patronizing at the same time.  They need to be in control.

The long and short of it is that there is no hard and fast rule on how to deal with circular arguments.  Often the topic of the argument is not the real issue at all.  They want us to know how they FEEL.  They want to vent and they need us to just listen.  

Circular arguments are exhausting but they can be productive if we invest the time and effort to find out what they are really about.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Reading all the posts about circular arguments reminds me that we are all in the same boat.  AND it has a hole in the bottom.  Sometimes we can bail fast enough to stay afloat and sometimes we start to sink.  

Exactly, we're fighting a losing battle.  I realize that those with BPD children don't have much choice, but anyone else (especially those who are dating), should really think long and hard before deciding to continue these relationships because you can get to a point (children, money, etc) where leaving becomes very difficult.

I have found there is no hard and fast rule with circular arguments.  What works on one occasion may not work the next.  Everything depends on how THEY react... . how upset they are, what the topic is, how many times the same argument has been revisited, what has been tried in the past to resolve issues, etc.  The list goes on and on.  

Exactly, much depends on where they are emotionally.  If they've already had a couple of things annoy them within the last few days (or few hours), they will not be rational no matter what. 

I've also found that it can depend on who's around. H doesn't want to lose his relationship with our older son, which is very precarious right now, so if that son calls H on his craziness, H will sometimes admit it or at least "back off".  However, there have been times when older son can't calm him down, either. 

It is all about them.  Even when they dismiss our solicited point of view or suggestion as to what we would do, even when we commisurate and validate, even when we praise them for coming up with a solution on their own, there is no guarantee they will follow through.  Sometimes they will do the exact opposite.

Yes, it is all about them.  We can calmly discuss a plan, he can totally agree to it, but then the day will come for the plan to be implemented  and if he's no longer in the mood or has received a golf invite, then off he goes to do what he wants (usually after he's picked a fight so he can justify his behavior.)

While they often reject our attempts to help, it gives them things to think about, and I believe they do consider all the options.  They want our input but find it condescending and patronizing at the same time.  They need to be in control.

Yes, yes, yes.  H will complain that he's being treated like a little kid.  H likes to do things "his way" (because it's all about him), so instead of getting up at a decent time to do some chores H will sleep in til 2pm, eat, shower, go to the gym, and then say it's too late to do the chore.

The long and short of it is that there is no hard and fast rule on how to deal with circular arguments.  Often the topic of the argument is not the real issue at all.  They want us to know how they FEEL.  They want to vent and they need us to just listen.  

Circular arguments are exhausting but they can be productive if we invest the time and effort to find out what they are really about.

Yes, they want us to know how they feel, because they "feel" more, the "hurt" more.

[waverider]

The long and short of it is that there is no hard and fast rule on how to deal with circular arguments.  Often the topic of the argument is not the real issue at all.  They want us to know how they FEEL.  They want to vent and they need us to just listen. 

Circular arguments are exhausting but they can be productive if we invest the time and effort to find out what they are really about.

This is important as it takes the argument out of it, you dont need to be right or have the last word, and as you know they are not taking stuff in, so no point saying it. Go find something else to do if you can

we are all in the same boat.  AND it has a hole in the bottom.  Sometimes we can bail fast enough to stay afloat and sometimes we start to sink.

 

and we have a crew member who is busily trying to knock another hole in the bottom while we are trying to deal with the first one. If it sinks its your fault for not bailing fast enough, and they make you believe it is too.

[maxen]

the victimology, which infuriated me, which is a bad response to have, especially to a pwBPD; and the projection, which just left me gawping and JADEing.

The insanity of trying couples therapy, only to watch him present his wounded, misunderstood persona, that I sadly watch the counselor get sucked into while admonishing me how better to communicate in less "fighting words" (yah I know, I read that couples counseling would likely not be effective but still wanted to try).

this too. all she did was put the needle back at the start of the record every time, while the marriage T responded to me by chiding "now, maxen, say that again without the sarcasm," as she called it.

[Surnia]

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