Secrets, lies and devious behavior

[Depression = 72% of members]

HoM - I get the impression that you are looking for a boundary re the adult chat sites (or whatever else he's doing) that stops short of your leaving him. Is this correct? You are entitled to change your mind about your boundaries and your defence of them. Perhaps this behaviour is a problem for you but not quite a 'dealbreaker'? That's okay. But then you need to figure out a few things:

1. Can you live with the behaviour? If you absolutely can't, then it's going to be a dealbreaker, no way around that.

2. If you're not sure if you can live with it (i.e. whether it's a dealbreaker or not) then you need to examine your feeling surrounding the issue. How does his online behaviour impact your values? How is it affecting you? It it the effect of the behaviour that you ultimately are trying to protect yourself from with boundaries. For example, is the root problem that you don't feel your religious values are in synch? You fear his behaviour is leading to something else (and, if so, where? And why are you concerned about that)? You fear that you won't be able to cope on your own if he leaves the r/s? Something else?

3. Once you decide what it is about the behaviour that is really getting to you, you can start to think of appropriate boundaries to protect yourself.

So, to continue my previous example: I decided that I don't like being lied to. I don't like it because it usually means that the other person doesn't respect me enough to tell me the truth or that they think I'm sort of dim and I'll believe everything they tell me (I feel duped). Sounds like it could be a dealbreaker, right? A lot of that is just my own projection though - people lie for all kinds of reasons and, in the case of my dBPDh, he mostly lies for his own comfort and/or out of fear (i.e. really nothing to do with me). So, in principle, it's not so very bad. But the lying also means that I can't trust him. There is an unpredictability there that makes me very nervous. I can't live with uncertainty about my own basic needs being met in the future. I can take of myself so long as I have a bit of money to buffer any major life changes and give me time to reorganize. So, in order to meet my own needs and alleviate my own stress, I made sure that my H's lying and unpredictable actions wouldn't sabotage my personal security. I did this by opening a separate bank account. So, by figuring out that my root fear/upset was caused by feeling like my future could be jeopardized, I came up with the financial boundary that would make me feel better.

[arabella]

HoM - I get the impression that you are looking for a boundary re the adult chat sites (or whatever else he's doing) that stops short of your leaving him. Is this correct? You are entitled to change your mind about your boundaries and your defence of them. Perhaps this behaviour is a problem for you but not quite a 'dealbreaker'? That's okay. But then you need to figure out a few things:

1. Can you live with the behaviour? If you absolutely can't, then it's going to be a dealbreaker, no way around that.

2. If you're not sure if you can live with it (i.e. whether it's a dealbreaker or not) then you need to examine your feeling surrounding the issue. How does his online behaviour impact your values? How is it affecting you? It it the effect of the behaviour that you ultimately are trying to protect yourself from with boundaries. For example, is the root problem that you don't feel your religious values are in synch? You fear his behaviour is leading to something else (and, if so, where? And why are you concerned about that)? You fear that you won't be able to cope on your own if he leaves the r/s? Something else?

3. Once you decide what it is about the behaviour that is really getting to you, you can start to think of appropriate boundaries to protect yourself.

So, to continue my previous example: I decided that I don't like being lied to. I don't like it because it usually means that the other person doesn't respect me enough to tell me the truth or that they think I'm sort of dim and I'll believe everything they tell me (I feel duped). Sounds like it could be a dealbreaker, right? A lot of that is just my own projection though - people lie for all kinds of reasons and, in the case of my dBPDh, he mostly lies for his own comfort and/or out of fear (i.e. really nothing to do with me). So, in principle, it's not so very bad. But the lying also means that I can't trust him. There is an unpredictability there that makes me very nervous. I can't live with uncertainty about my own basic needs being met in the future. I can take of myself so long as I have a bit of money to buffer any major life changes and give me time to reorganize. So, in order to meet my own needs and alleviate my own stress, I made sure that my H's lying and unpredictable actions wouldn't sabotage my personal security. I did this by opening a separate bank account. So, by figuring out that my root fear/upset was caused by feeling like my future could be jeopardized, I came up with the financial boundary that would make me feel better.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[allibaba]

Arabella,

That example was very helpful to me.  I don't have the same issue with financial security or the concern with adult chat sites but that was just a really helpful example of how you worked through an issue.

[House of Mirrors]

Hi,

Thanks again for your insights. I don’t know about you guys but I think maybe some of us have genuine blindspots when something really triggers us - I am feeling that with me right now. I feel so angry and deeply upset about this particular issue that it kind of ties me up in knots – maybe because I know deep down the fact that this is a dealbreaker for me yet I don’t want to lose my relationship.

I feel really, really angry that he engages in this behaviour, the fact that I don’t even know whether in the 12 years we have been together whether the physical boundaries have ever been crossed (i.e. him having contact with people). I am confused about the fact that he is so plausable and acts so normally and has the ability to tell me absolute lies and yet present them as the truth. When the hell does he even do this as he is either at work and really busy (which he is) or at home with me in the same room (most of the time)?

He KNOWS that him engaging in this activity and me finding out will destroy and end our relationship. I am just too weak right now to enforce that and I don’t want to end my relationship because on the surface of things right now he could not be nicer or kinder – after all the struggle things on the surface are actually easier. I hear all about compulsions and addictions being part of BPD and I hear that he may not be in ‘control’ as such but I refuse to accept that is really true. My view is that he is just getting away with what he can and totally disrespecting me.

I hate that he does this. I hate that I don’t know if he is being physically unfaithful, I hate that I can’t confront it. I hate that I know which site he has a profile with and I am too weak and scared to set up a profile and ‘trap’ him and then have the almighty, volcanic argument that will completely destroy my relationship and leave me alone with a lot of difficult choices to make about what to do with my home, finances, possessions etc.

It is easier for me to just try and rationalise and minimise what he is doing and tell myself it is just online and fulfils some stupid, pathetic childish need he has or validation he seeks. This makes me so unhappy this whole issue – hence I am struggling. It makes me feel so sad and like I am living in a big lie that he is making and sucking me into. I am sat here crying while typing this and yet today is our 12 year anniversary  :'(

Those feelings just make me feel powerless and like I can’t deal with this issue so I just focus on the day to day and the fact that we are getting on great and having fun together. Underneath that my trust is broken and my integrity to myself and my wants and needs is being sold out by me. Trust is key to me and I can’t trust a liar who lies time and time again.  He really is two people; one to my face and another behind my back when he thinks he is unseen and unheard…

What to do?

So glad I found you lovely people 

HoM

[almost789]

House,

If you believe that he has addictions and compulsions then what is it that leads you to believe he does this just to disrespect you. They don't have addictions and compulsions because of you or to disrespect you. This is where your anger lies. You need to understand that the very nature of addiciton and compulsion is uncontrollable, otherwise it is not an addiction. It has nothing to do with you. If you can get that your anger will lessen. If you continue to believe that he does it just to disrespect your relationship you will constantly feel anger. I know, been there! I don't blame you for this being a deal breaker, it would be for me too if it was my primary relationship. My boundary would be treatment or no relationship. Perhaps you should read up on addictions and compulsions to  help you understand realistically what that means and stop thinking it is about you or that he can just stop for you, especially if you are saying you are not ready to end the relationship.

[Peterpan]

Waverider, can I reinforce your earlier post 

I have had two years now of this ridiculous cicle of back and forth crap from my kind of ex pwuBPD.

I have been through that feeling of wanting to catch him out, even though all my trouble started out as exactly that,,I cought him out!

I gave the benefit of the doubt, I listened to the pleas, watched the sobs, felt the stalking, all at the same time as not really trusting any of those actions.

Two years later, he is still in my life, although I take it all lightly and exactly for what it is. I love the person he 'professes to be' but I do know that person is not really there under his skin.

I have tried to live with it as it is, accept him fro who and what he is, it is very soul destroying!

He still contacts me by text, but yet keeps me at arms length, will talk on the phone, only if he feels an impending problem, otherwise it is me who has to ask him to talk.

We are not lovers,(we were lovers) but yet we are more than friends, and yes the only thing which stops me making any more a fool of myself is becasue I KNOW what he did, and if he could do that at the beginning of a new relationship and 'get away' with it, then surely he willl do it again yes?

I am stuck at this and have been for the last eighteen months, trying to trust and believe, feeling sorry for his undiagnosed disorder of insecurity. I find myself ignoriing him for a while, but always end up answering because he is so persisitent.

I am also obsessed with wanting to find the truth, no matter how much it hurts.

You are absolutely correct with this, we end up feeling so sure of their habits and ways that it is inevitable.

We end up spending most of our time trying to find the absolute truth becasue our 'gut instinct' always tells us something is wrong.

This is what I have had trouble with, so paranoid that he is seeing someone else whilst he is not with me, that I have ignored the real issue.

It's how he treats ME that I should be objecting to, whether there is someone else in the dynamic or not?

WHne we are co-dependent and also afraid of the rejection, it does become easy to let your baoundaries slip. I have put so many in place, only to let them slip.

I really need to study up on this boundary thing don't I 

[House of Mirrors]

Summer – you are probably right but maybe I am coming from a place of being tired of it all being about him and his needs. I have been endlessly understanding about many things – not just this issue. If I now have to extend myself again by understanding this is part of his uBPD and I need to educate myself about HIS issues rather than mine then aren’t I just being MORE codependent? Maybe I should be looking to raise my self-belief and self-esteem to a point where I just tell him to shove it and feel OK about that? However, there is the classic BPD dynamic at work in my relationship which is that the good stuff is great and the bad stuff is terrible – just like when he is nice he is nice and when he is not he is awful. We stay for the good stuff / good times and minimise / justify the rest to ourselves. Sad but true.

What makes me think that he is disrespecting me is this: my belief is that as he is a grown man he should be able to be rational and understand that if I have said he will lose the relationship if he continues then surely the risk outweighs the reward of his sex liaisons of whatever type they may be.  I made myself VERY clear to him about what my views are (albeit before I realised the behavior may be BPD driven) and he is still crossing those boundaries. You are saying he is not in control of that. You may well be right as he is not in  control of any other aspects of his BPD but part of me is tired of being on the receiving end of the BPD behaviours and just wants a normal, truthful, adult relationship and for my partner to be who he says he is rather than say he is something and be incongruent. He knew how much his behaviour hurt me when I found out before yet still he persists. As long as he is getting his needs met why worry about mine I guess... .

I am tired. I am sad. I am OK one minute and not OK the next. One minute I am on the boat enjoying the sun and the next I am plunged into the deep water and facing the sharks circling beneath.

Dealing with my CD and his uBPD is really hard

HoM

[almost789]

I think that your pain comes from not knowing what you want. To accept it for what it is, or not and move on without him. To understand that a compulsion/addiction/mental disorder is not about you, is not co-dependant. When you can understand that his behavior is not about you, it just eleviates the anger part. I'm not saying for you to accept it. Im saying you need to get to a place where you radically understand and accept it is what it is, an addiction that will not change because you tell him it has to end. You already learned that. You told him, he continued. You have to either accept it, or don't. That is your choice and it is a difficult one to make and I don't think MOST people cant accept it and ultimately it does lead to the end of the relationship. But, if you decide you do not want the end of the relationship, then it would help you to learn what an addiction or mental illness really means so that you can understand that his behaviors have NOTHING to do with you and you can't control them with threats of leaving. Infact, that only exacerbates it.

[House of Mirrors]

Firstly - apologies Murph for totally hijacking your thread and I hope you are OK.

Summer – I think my pain comes from not knowing what the extent of it is – so not being able to accept it (i.e. is it contact or non-contact? If non-contact I can make some BPD allowances but I still don’t ACCEPT or LIKE it) and also not being able to have complete transparency or trust in my r/s. It pains me to not be able to discuss the elephant in the room – I want to bring it out and deal with it adult to adult and I can’t – that makes me feel so alone and impotent. I admit that other pain comes from ending things so to a degree you are correct. I am caught between pain and pain! Great choice…

I understand that this issue is not about me and I agree that is not CD BUT if I go away and spend my time and energy (MORE time and energy) reading up on WHY he behaves like this rather than focus on raising my self-worth then that IS CD as I am prioritizing him over and above me.

As for radical understanding and acceptance – I know nothing about this topic. Is it what it says on the tin? Do I have to just accept and understand that as the behaviour most likely stems from BPD (rather than being a selfish pig who disrespects me) then he is not in control of it and so until he chooses to change then I have no choice? I agree that we can only change ourselves. I am trying to change myself (not FAST enough!) but I can’t outrun the pain that his behavior causes me.

Feel free to recommend a tool that would help me here. I feel a bit lost!

HoM

[almost789]

No, I didn't say you have to study up on his illness. Of course you can just accept it is an illness. What I said was that you SHOULD understand what an addiction/compulsion is, because you first stated you didn't believe he had this no control over it idea and that he was doing it just to disrespect you. I had a very bad anger problem with mine too for a long time because I kept thinking he just didn't care and was just doing it to hurt me. Ok, so then I understoon the addiction part, so I was good there. But then the other things! The things that go along with BPD. Those things I thought he was doing on purpose. And it really appears as if they are doing things on purpose to hurt us, but it wasn't until I understood that it is NOT on purpose, their brains make them do things they dont want to do! Not until you get that will you be able to have empathy for them when they are pulling their stunts! It took away all my anger. Just dealing with "myself" and turning a blind eye to understanding to what was going on with him did not work for me. It just didn't. I had to understand. But, if you can cope by just saying... . he has a disorder of course do what works for you. Your not going to change him. Its not going to change without treatment. Im sorry, this is tough to swallow, but that is what radical acceptance is. It does not mean you AGREE with it.

[waverider]

The problem with addictions and destructive behavior is that the only truth is that you will never know the real truth. That is hard to accept and it is the chase to find the elusive truth that destroys you.

Even if you were told the absolute truth you would not have complete faith in it being so, hence it is an empty result.

Protect yourself from the pain of the never ending quest for this empty truth. You are being indirectly infected by the illness.

[arabella]

The thing with an addiction is that if the person is able to stop, then it's not an addiction. Think of an alcoholic - they can't stop. They may know their drinking is destroying their lives and their relationships. They feel terrible. They are desperate to try to hold things together. Yet, they still drink. Some hit rock bottom and seek out treatment and manage to recover - most do not. It is the exact same thing with your husband.

Not being able to talk about it, for me, would make it feel worse. Imho, if you are going to stay, you need to adjust your boundary so that you aren't constantly hiding from yourself. Then tell your husband that you know. Point at that elephant, give him a name, and start learning how to keep him out of your way. At least then you're both being honest about it - even if you don't like it.

[House of Mirrors]

Hi again,

Thanks for your replies. I needed a time out to reflect upon my feelings. I think you are right that I am making it about me when in fact this is his stuff that he probably has no control over.

Two books on BPD turned up today that I had ordered. I have scanned some parts of them and it just reinforces what you are saying. There was one very poignant paragraph: 'You will have to give up the fantasy that you can change someone else. When you let go of this belief you will be able to claim the power that is truly yours; the power to change yourself.' I don't want to change him - I want him to want to change himself but he won't, his self-concept is too fragile to cope so who am I to push him?

So YES I should be dealing with my own reasons and behaviours that keep me here I guess and coming to terms with the fact that if I don't want to be with someone who is a sex addict (whatever extents that has to it) then I need to work at being strong enough to leave and follow through on my ultimatum. That is exactly the process I started a month ago. It is not easy. It is not what I want to do but if I want to be in a truthful and adult relationship then I am kidding myself staying where I am.

He is in firm denial and I am not sure he is capable of change, even probing at the issues gently results in denial and lies so where is there left for me to go? I guess I need to work at getting stronger and prepare myself for an exit at some point... . when I feel ready.

In the meantime I need to read books about MY stuff, not his... .

Sigh

HoM

[almost789]

You are catching on quickly! I still struggle with this too. Im in the same position. I want him to change. I want HIM to want to change. I don't know if he REALLY wants to change. He is bigtime in denial, I think he wants to, but I don't know if he is ready. He's not communicating that.  But I am getting to a point where I'm feeling like I have to get on with MY life, if he want to change, great. We don't have to draw that line to say, it's over I am leaving. But, I need to start paying attention to me now and see what happens from there. Good luck to you!

[House of Mirrors]

Thanks Summer,

The head can understand things and the heart feels something far more painful

I feel very sad a lot of the time right now, even when things seem fine on the surface. I guess because my illusions are shattered.

I am considering trying to find a local group or some help for partners of sex addicts. I did some reading about this and identified so much with the codependent feelings and behaviours because that is the exact situation I am facing. I am then not dealing with his feelings but MINE. I also wrote myself a list of things fo rme to work towards so that I get stronger.

Maybe my position in time will be to tell him that I am ending our relationship as I no longer feel I should stay with someone who is living in denial, lying to me, busting my boundaries, and resistant to changing himself. We will see if I can get there... . it is a tough road but I know it is time for me to change and deal with my emotions past and present.

The strength of my feelings yesterday made me realise that I need to address my pain and take steps to heal myself - not him, he is responsible for himself. I may wobble from that position - we will have to see... .

Have a good weekend,

HoM

[Granum]

I recently left my BPD boyfriend, and while i KNOW he has BPD, he is undiagnosed.  His behavior fits the BPD criteria to a T.  While we have only exchanged a few texts in last 2 weeks (me just reiterating a strong boundary of -- get into recovery, or NC with me), what I think a lot about is this sex addiction part of his behavior.  In the beginning of our relationship, we had sex a lot - it was last summer, and we both had more time than usual to be able to do this.  But soon I started to see that his behaviors appeared "objectifying" or certainly only caring for his own instant gratification, and in no way resembled true intimacy between two partners who said they loved each other.  I could not wrap my head around it.  Then I caught him -- only a month or two into our relationship-- "sexting" with another woman.  We had a huge row, and I left him (For the first time of probably 20+ times I left him in all).  While he fell short of making true amends, I did see in their texting exchange that these two had "probably" gotten together, at least once.  As I write this, I cannot believe I allowed him to talk me back!  He went to rehab for 7 days, and while he did not take rehab seriously enough (he did not stay, and covered up the center's true recommendations -- he is an alcoholic), he did emerge making indirect apologies for this event.   

But the more recent behavior centered around his desires for "us" to view porn while making love, wanting to go to strip clubs, wanting to have threesomes/eightsomes (!).  The grilling for all of this - yes, grilling - was relentless; felt like he mentioned it daily.  It was not "fun" talk; it was tiresome.  All the while he was acting out, raging over small things. And I am thinking to myself, -while I am up for adventure in a truly trusting relationship -- that is not what we had, as he abused that trust over and over and over.  I guess I speak to the other members who here too who have had similar issues with their partners.  He wanted to "push boundaries" with me in the bedroom -- but trust is SO key to be able to do that.  And the boundary-pushing was usually something greater for him, not for me.   what am I getting out of a threesome? He just wants to be validated and gets to have sex with another while I am present, which in his mind,  just tells him it is ok.  I told him I was not interested in an "open relationship".  A couples counselor told him to drop it finally.  But he would not drop the porn, the references that I needed to get more creative in the bedroom (while he mostly did nothing special for me).  It made me SO resentful, and I think it made me love him so much less.   He also asked me/no made me do things in the bedroom I did not want to do -- and told him I did not enjoy -- but he did not care.  All he cared about was his own gratification.  It was emotional/sexual abuse.  I consider myself a sensuous, love sex kind of woman, but his demands and his ways made me dread sex with him, even though my physical attraction to him prob kept me there MUCH longer than I would have otherwise.  Believe me, I note a lot of my own sickness here, --that I allowed such behavior, and did not enforce my boundaries enough - but I tried, tried, tried over and over again.  But his long line abuse has frittered away a love for him.   Thus, sadly enforcing my latest boundary of NC unless recovery - while challenging, isn't nearly as hard as it has been in the past.  I never could detach and still keep my love alive for him after all of this.  I do miss the good parts, but can't live with the abuse/lies/deceit any longer.

[almost789]

Dont blame you there Granum. You don't need that! You deserve better.

[arabella]

Granum - that situation was wholly untenable, good for you for getting yourself out! That must have been so hard to do, but obviously you're a very strong person.

HoM - I think we sometimes inadvertently contribute to the denial. I'm not suggesting you take ownership of his issues, I'm just suggesting that perhaps some of 'our stuff' conflicts with 'their stuff', you know? So, if I tell my H that if I catch him watching porn again I'm leaving him, guess what he's going to do? Hide it. And in hiding it and lying to me he starts to lie to himself. If he acknowledges to himself that he's lying to me and behaving inappropriately then he feels bad about himself - and he can't handle that. I am essentially asking him to choose between the only two things that make him feel better - porn or me. What a dilema! So he lies, even to himself, to avoid the choice. He can't even admit he has a problem in order to seek treatment because then: (a) he won't have his 'drug' anymore and he can't think what he'd do without it (he doesn't know that treatment means discovering new ways to self-soothe, he probably doesn't even realize that's what he's doing); and (b) if he admits he has a problem then he admits he's 'using' again and I'll leave him. You see the catch-22 there.