How much are her actions "BPD" and how much are "choice"?

[Iamdizzy]

I'm trying to make sense or at least grasp what has happened. In my last topic post, a member stated "I don't know how much of their actions are choice and how much of it is due to BPD"

That resonated in me, in particular, I can recall on many occasions the snide passive aggressive and the downright pugnacious behavior towards me (due to issues that I'm trying to work on). I many never find a definitive answer, ever, but I would like to get opinions on here regarding this: how much of their behavior (rages) is PD and go much is personal choice?

[Reg]

Hi,

Personally I would say it has nothing to do with personal choice, it is all the BPD.

A BPD can not even make real choices as we make choices, at least not on an emotional level.  The truth evolves in their head in the way it makes them more comfortable.  Gets them more attention... .   They do not see the difference between truth and lies, they are emotionally stuck in early childhood.  There's only black and white, and there's only BPD on all emotional behaviour.  They don't even have their own identity as we have one... .   They simply don't get it when it has to do with emotions.  Sad !

Reg

[seeking balance]

The cluster B personality disorders have little to do with choice in that the natural way for coping to emotions... . emotions that scientifically are shown to be more intense in the brain... . the maladaptive coping is survival.  The pain and fear is real and intense and happens more than any of us realize. 

This isn't a "bad attitude"... . it is a mental illness.

[Emelie Emelie]

Yeah well mine was fully aware of his mental illness.  And used it as justification for his behavior.  But didn't seek treatment for it.  Just kept hurting people.  Sorry.  I'm having a hard night and not feeling remotely empathetic towards him. 

[simplyasiam]

my had same control as a 5 years old... . see it want grab it trash when your done with it. she really seemed to have came out of it got past acting that way in the late spring and early sumer. not its all falling apart on her she started reaching out to me again, im not willing to play the game. i put a stop to it again today.

i pray ill be over this soon

[seeking balance]

Yeah well mine was fully aware of his mental illness.  And used it as justification for his behavior.  But didn't seek treatment for it.  Just kept hurting people.  Sorry.  I'm having a hard night and not feeling remotely empathetic towards him. 

Aware with a diagnosis and no treatment is a choice.

Nobody says you have to feel sorry for him.

[willtimeheal]

Sorry but I find it hard to believe they have no awareness of their behavior. Mental illness or not when you hurt someone the way they hurt people and mess with people's hearts and heads the way they do don't hide behind BPD and claim you are  unaware. That can only go so far. That is like a get out of jail free card an  their comes a time when those run out and you need to take responsibility for your actions. It's called being an adult. I don't buy that they are  unaware. Sorry.

[Cooper10]

Hi,

Personally I would say it has nothing to do with personal choice, it is all the BPD.

A BPD can not even make real choices as we make choices, at least not on an emotional level.  The truth evolves in their head in the way it makes them more comfortable.  Gets them more attention... .   They do not see the difference between truth and lies, they are emotionally stuck in early childhood.  There's only black and white, and there's only BPD on all emotional behaviour.  They don't even have their own identity as we have one... .   They simply don't get it when it has to do with emotions.  Sad !

Reg

I agree.  I struggle with this truth because this definitive quality of the illness seems to preclude seeking treatment.  

[Cooper10]

Sorry but I find it hard to believe they have no awareness of their behavior. Mental illness or not when you hurt someone the way they hurt people and mess with people's hearts and heads the way they do don't hide behind BPD and claim you are  unaware. That can only go so far. That is like a get out of jail free card an  their comes a time when those run out and you need to take responsibility for your actions. It's called being an adult. I don't buy that they are  unaware. Sorry.

My ex lacked empathy entirely.  I really don't think he understood that his actions could affect other people--either positively or negatively.  To your point though, I do think he chose not to think about the consequences of his actions though, as he told me that on a number of occasions. Maybe that's kind of the same thing - like willful blindness or something.

[Iloveljj]

My daughter appears to save her worse behavior for me.  She is refusing all contact for the last year because she said I would not listen to her problems while I was sick and in the hospital.  She says I emotionally abandoned her.  I don't believe I did, but was on lots of pain meds so maybe I did not listen  and make sense.  No amount of logic or explanation will change the fact in her mind that I am a terrible Mom since that incident (which I don't remember at all). 

My point is that she seems to chose to think that way with me and not others in the family.  I am the scapegoat for everything that is wrong in her life.  I am very glad she does not treat her children that way.  Her husband gets a lot of her BPD behavior too.   He says he feels like he is in jail, because he is afraid to leave her alone with the children, just in case.

She is a MD and has a good practice so she must have some empathy for her patients, but not for me.  It is very hurtful but I just tell myself she is mentally ill. 

I think she does exercise some choice in who she takes her BPD actions out on.

[bpdspell]

I struggle with believing there's a definitive answer for this question. I personal feel it's a bit of both the disorder and simply not caring about hurting others.

I truly believe that mental illness and BPD is real but sometimes it does seems that they are purposeful and intentful on hurting others. My ex was sadistic and punishing and if it wasn't on purpose... . it sure felt like it was. When he wanted to hurt me he didn't hold back BPD or not... .

There were times when I stooped to his level out of frustration to give him a dose of his own medicine and it certainly hurt him... . so I sometime scratch my head that they don't "know" that they hurt others... .

Spell

[Clearmind]

My ex did not understand cause and effect - if I do this, then Clearmind reacts like this then maybe I shouldn't do it or say it. There was no filter, there was no thought about consequences because he just couldn't piece it together. His reactions were emotional - anyone who reacts on an emotional level, not using Wisemind will in effect hurt others... . this is why I have empathy not anger for my ex. He is who is, I chose to engage, I chose to react - I had to make my own peace with the relationship. I choose to no longer be a victim of circumstance - because I got into it all on my own.

Good decisions come from Wisemind - where the logical mind and emotional mind overlap.

[Iamdizzy]

Iloveljj- there is ABSOLUTELY no reason for you to think you abandoned her, on the contrary.

I know I choose to engage and continue to be with her, it was wrong. Like many on here I was naive and had absolutely no idea what BPD was, heck I'm still trying to figure it all out. I couldn't resist the idealization and the horrendous stories about sexual abuse. I just feel like she just intentionally knew what buttons to push. Does a serial killer know they are going to inflict damage to another? Yes, but they still do it. Like I've said before its radical to compare them to BPD but they do know that they're doing. I understand BPD or not we do foolish things when we act on impulse and are wired up on our emotions. I flip out at times when I Come across a crazy driver it's natural. It's a whole different ballpark with BPD. Wen things were going too good, she would perhaps subconsciously, start a fight. Ok, that's the BPD coming out but there were also just down right hurtful disgusting vile sentences she threw out at me *KNOWING* it would hurt me, that I believe it's by choice.

[ScotisGone74]

This is the question that I have struggled to answer in completing my assessment of the whole train wreck of a

relationship.  My exBPD is a grown adult, who makes her own decisions, BPD or not.  I realize their feelings are very intense, but they choose to make their decisions, to lie, to cheat, to steal, to whatever ... . without considering who they hurt or the consequences involved, and at times considering just how awfully bad they Will hurt someone else intentionally.   At some point they know they have a serious problem, they Choose whether to get help or not.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.  Some people are on a path to function as forever broken. 

[VeryFree]

Does it really matter what the answer to this question is?

Musquitos sting and suck your blood. Very irritating, sometimes painfull.

Do you ask yourself the question wether it's their nature or personal choice? Does the answer to this question makes you act differently towards them? Does knowing that musquitos don't really have choice make you open your windows at night, leaving the lights on and inviting them in?

Imho it's about self-protection: we have to take our own measures to prevent our blood is sucked. For some persons that's trying to live with their disordered SO by using the helpfull tools on these boards. For others it's detaching from their SO.

[thisyoungdad]

Interesting topic. With my ex, the vast majority of the painful comments and interactions were that she would simply say or do whatever came to her in that moment and if she would think about it, that was only later. And most the time she couldn't understand, and I truly believe in her case couldn't most the time, how it was painful. For what it is worth with her, her father to this day at 70 years old is the most inappropriate person because he will say whatever he thinks and it has gotten so bad when he is around we warn our friends not to get offended because he will say something offensive. So she grew up with this and the not taking responsibility for it. However I do have a few notes from her where she would come back and tell me that she was very sorry for what she said or did and she wished she had done it different. She would even say sometimes she wished she did it different AND she didn't know why she said it or did it. Sometimes she would say something and then I could tell she would genuinely feel horrified. For her anyway I think that 80% of the time it was just her nature. It was the 20% that wasn't which was/is the unbearable part.

[Reg]

Hi,

I've been thinking also for a long time that it had to do with personal choices partially.  It doesn't.  They are unaware of their behaviour or in denial of their problem.

I think if most of us look back to our relationships, if it lasted for some time and you lived together, you will have received signals.

For example I told my ex put yourself in my place, and she tried a few times, but a few times she told me she wasn't able to.  There was happening to much in her head. And that is the truth !

Or she said that she had cried, I asked why, she didn't know it... .

Or she was over thinking, but if I did confront her with what we as nons should think about in that case, she hadn't been thinking about these things, and I had no clear answer on what she had been thinking.

There's absolutely no emotional logic in their thinking.  My ex had broken her word several times on decisions, if she was able to make one at all, it didn't last long.  The mirroring, lack of identity, makes them highly influencable from all possible directions.  In my case some high level BPD's as well.

When she broke her word once more she did get me upset and angry.

Now here is how they think, for me a very good example, and what she actually told me one moment at the end of the relationship : she didn't take a decision, because she was scared that I would be angry again.  So no matter if the decision was positive or negative, she didn't think about the decision on this matter itself, she was connecting my reaction on breaking her word with taking a decision and was thinking about that.  Not on what to decide and why decide this as we nons do.

Is that logical ?  Emotionally logical ? Is that an own choice ? I honestly don't think so... .

The more you understand the borderline mind, the more you understand they have a serious mental problem, coming from the early stages in their life, and in the case of my ex, with some serious abuse in her late adolescence, leaving even more post traumatic stress.  And we may have added to that as well, unknowingly, and not a cause for guilt from our side.  We didn't know it... .

I have empathy for my ex, but not to the point that I want her back in my life, I don't want to be a whitness of the fact how this borderline will screw up the rest of her life, even with the risk that she commits suicide.

I have tried to help her, to convince her, but the influence of some other borderlines is too big.  Even of the husband to whom she's still married on paper.  He will say all the opposite from me, just to keep her in his egocentric world.  He doesn't care about her, he only cares about what he wants.

Even her own closest family is unfortunately too busy with their own issues, it was and is not a warm and loving family.

I'm the only person in the end who cared enough to search for what's happening in her mind.  And I am the same person who knows it is of no use in my case to try to convince her to seek help.  She lives to far away, I can't influence her enough on that matter, I don't get any support on the matter from those who surround her, I see her child suffering more and more of emotional problems.  That is hard, so I decided to take my distances from the whole matter.  For myself.  It may even sound a bit egocentric from my side but that's how it is.

Borderline is hell in the brain and prevents them from everything we can.  At the end, we are the lucky ones, allthough you may not feel like that.  :)on't forget about that !

Reg

[thisyoungdad]

Reg-

Yes we are the lucky ones, but when I think about that I feel very sad. Sad because I can not imagine what it must be like to have the life they have. On some level they have to be aware that something is wrong whether they know what it is or not, at least I would think so. My ex I think knows that something isn't right because for instance she left me 10 months ago and we are in the end stages of divorce. Yet she has told almost no one, which is what she does when maybe just unconsciously, she knows people won't approve, or will wonder what the heck she is doing. Which in this case most people had asked what the heck, because they don't know. So that tells me she has at least some level of awareness but can't own her decisions because the shame would be overwhelming. She is still paying off her first divorce (she is a high powered professional so she makes a lot and thus ends up being the one to pay a huge sum of money) for another 3 years and now is spending an astronomical amount to divorce me. Even her attorney was floored she was unwilling to work on anything with me when this was the case, and that she always said how wonderful a father I was. Any hint of her making a mistake or not getting approval is so painful for her that she not only can not take responsibility but in this case can't even tell almost anyone we are getting divorced. I only starting telling people except my closest friends a month ago because we are so close to being divorced and no one knew. She doesn't know why she "needed a divorce" from me but she did and she told me this more than once. Yet her not telling anyone is a perfect example of not taking responsibility and putting it on me. It is just so sad to watch her dig her hole deeper and deeper, losing friends, increasingly large amounts of money and now her family.

[Reg]

thisyoungdad,

I understand the way you feel very well.  It is very sad, there's no denial possible on that matter, once you know how their mind works.  And how they destroy their lives as well as that from others.

If I was to have any support, I would have supported her as a friend, to seek help.  But well even her own family doesn't really seem to care enough.

I wouldn't want to be in their shoes at all.  Neither would you, I know.

Yes I'm seriously convinced that they know something is wrong, but you did hit it spot on, the shame is to big to admit that.  People might say that they are crazy.  And it is very very difficult to convince them that it is not their fault that this happened to them.  It still is very stigmatizing, certainly here in Europe.

Concerning divorce I see the same pattern with my ex.  Her divorce has already been on and off for almost 5 years now.  To the world she is now again the happy couple with her husband, he's happy that he doesn't need to do a lot in housekeeping, even when there's no love or sex between them and she is seeing someone else, a recycled BPD... .

I know it has no use, and to protect them from themselves while healing one should almost put them into a glass bowl, only making contact possible with those who are actually caring about her, which is impossible... .

Reg

[Cocoalover]

From what Ive understood so far, the way they act out are all all relevant to the disorder , but there are things which make them justify what they do no matter how hurtful to those who they care for them, I call it enablers. In my case there were to types of enablers , first his friends who would go out with, getting drunk and giving contact numbers like flyers, second his appearance which makes him so desirable as he was so attractive, that made him indifferent and not give a hint about what he had with me to the point made me realise what I had with him was anything but a relationship!

[Reg]

Cocoalover,

The appearance that makes them so attractive is mainly due to the mirroring.  Although my ex had very beautiful green eyes, which made her also attractive, together with her own way of walking, the only thing she didn't mirror from others.  And possibly the only part of her identity that would be real in our view.  Her daughter is mirroring this also.

I think the borderline mind is complex but on the other hand rather logic in their own way.  It is some kind of self defensive system that relates to the early childhood.  Remember they kept stuck in that period in a way on an emotional level.

So what we see as indifference, is not indifference as we know it.  Their lack of being able to feel empathy, to put themselves in your shoes, is because they have never learned this.  Althought they may appear to have it.  My ex once came to comfort me, and I actually came to the conclusion afterwards that she did not comfort me in the real way, she was just mirroring again !

She said a few times to me that it was impossible to put herself in my shoes, as there was to much happening in her own head ! I think this is one of the very honest things that she shared with me.

For example, her unsolved anger about the suicide of her aunt, now two and a half years ago, makes me think a lot of little child, who does not get what it wants and is stamping its feet, or is becoming agressive.  It hasn't learned yet that it can get no for an answer.  And doesn't understand why it can't have everything it wants.  In this case life said no to her, and did something she didn't understand.  And doesn't know how to handle that.  She can't place it.  It is already hard to place it for other people... .

I've seen similar behavior with my ex partner on the same matter that she would not give a hint about being in a relationship. Remember, you are an object to their needs.  They do not feel love as you do, as I do.  I think this relates very well to the childish behaviour I mentioned before.

Well that's my two cents on the matter.

Reg

[Cocoalover]

Reg, I broke up with him 3 years ago, the first year was low contact, tha last two years was no contact at all. Before leaving The Uk I thought I would call him for a coffee as I felt bit of guilt not responding to his messages and emails. We met and soon he started crying, what for? I don't know. I wanted to be civil and explain why I had not answered. He asked to be in touch when I'm back home. Before leaving he started flirting again, could I stand firm on my feet? No, coz I still loved love him, why ? That's has been the most difficult answer to the point make me questioning my self-esteem! When he intiated sex( he is in a r/s for 1.5 now) i said no, I don't want u look at me as an object and don't make things cheap, I might not say the same things I used to say when we were together but I still am loyal to the feeling I had for u? Did he get it? A big NO

At last he didn't even come to see me before leaving. I was an object

[pk]

Interesting thread-  My BPDs T said he CAN make better choices but he is just programed to make the BPD decisions and that his CBT will help him make the better choices etc.  I have seen it working to some degree.  Also when I threaten to leave or he NEEDS to - he makes very rational normal choices and decisions.  He will appear not mentally ill until the threat passes and he can go back to being the BPD he is comfortable with.

[Reg]

Cocoalover,

What you mentioned at the end, not even coming, is indeed logical in their way I think, you are an object that can not be used for his needs untill you come back.  That and the combination perhaps of the fears of abandonment ?  Not knowing how to deal with this ?

Self esteem is one thing, but I think guilt is another thing.  From what I've been reading here a lot of people feel guilty about not having been able to take care of the person as they wished to have been able to.  I think and I repeat myself it is important to learn about their behavior, at least it was for me, to understand how they think, and not to feel guilty for having 'failed'.

We didn't fail, if you are a typical caretaker or not, the thing that has failed is their emotional growth, resulting in borderline behavior.  We are no therapists, and if you actually care about someone you can try to convince them to seek help.  Everybody's saying that it is the best that they hear about their problem from a therapist, and I agree.  But my borderline heard it from me, and nobody would have had the guts to tell her from her family.  I tried to convince her to seek help, but was all on my own.  Others were or negative or not really paying attention to this... .   I have tried it at least, the rest is her decision, and her decision only.

pk,

I am convinced that with help they can make better choices.  Or learn this.  I think it depends on their motivation and also on the negative influence from others. I think the older one gets with BPD the more difficult it is to change the behavior.

I think that after all seeing a therapist is some kind of a high speed course of learning how to think on an emotional level as nons do, and the longer they have been stuck in their behavior the more difficult it must be to let go of it.

Would love to hear opinions on that BTW !

Reg

[slimmiller]

Deos the alcoholic keep drinking or cope and dry out?

Does the diabetic watch his/her diet and monitor their sugar levels or ignore it?

Does the BPD know that they have a problem?

Why do they say;

'I feel so empty inside?'

'Whats my purpose in life?'

or;

'I will always love you, I just cant be with you'

'He is nothing to me like you are'

'It is not forever' (referring to above statement)

'We will be together in the end, just not right now' (As she once again beds down in a college dorm room with a guy half my age)

'We will always be a family' (after doing the above statement)

'I never abandoned the family' (argument after the above action and after not even calling her own kids for 2 weeks)

'I just cant hurt you anymore'

'We will do this and or that as a family' (After recycling the above bed mate for his buddy)

'It would be sick for you to date my friends' (as she beds her next 'soulmate' that is her current lovers best friend and roommate)... .

 


What they lack is the ability to discern their own behaviour as we can see above. Some of my friends have already asked, 'who does that?'  Her own son, my stepson, asks the same question. They also lack empathy and the ability to 'emulate' others with good quality. They only mirror what they need to survive.

Knowing mines history of how she was raised explains a lot. I never asked for character references of how she was raised but she gave me enough cluses over the years. Childhood neighbors, her siblings and even her mother have said things that expalined a lot. She made references to being given money by her mother to go buy candy because mother was going to get physical with her sister (physical punishment) This sister mind you was more of a mother then her own mother ever was. Both are blatant BPD.

Yes it is a disorder but they choose to go against the norms of all normal people that they could emulate and instead choose to follow their own path of destruction. They are astute enough to know something is wrong but they are so ingrained they will not change unless there is enough pain to give incentive to change. Instead they choose to do the hurting before others can hurt them enough to change them... .

But I honestly believe they do on some level know exactly what pain they are causing and they just dont care.

In the end the clincher for me is the fact that even after she has admitted that 'all I do is hurt people' she STILL refuses to try and get help. I think people that avoid seeking counseling are like liars that refuse a lie detector test because they know they are guilty

[jdcthunder14]

Yeah well mine was fully aware of his mental illness.  And used it as justification for his behavior.  But didn't seek treatment for it.  Just kept hurting people.  Sorry.  I'm having a hard night and not feeling remotely empathetic towards him. 

Mine did the same thing... . saying things at the end like "I told you I was crazy." Just recently I was recycled and during that she told me that she was done with relationships (good I say... . ) because she has nothing but bad luck with them. She meant this... . in her mind her actions had nothing to do with the end, just bad luck. I can't speak for all, but mine is 1000's of mile's from really having any clue who she is. It is a brain thing pure and simple.

[Iamdizzy]

Reg, very interesting posts. However, my uBPDex KNEW she had issues. Perhaps she had no idea what BPD was and just called it PTSD and a near infinite anger towards her parents / sexual abusers. She often tell me, I am dizzy- you don't deserve me I'm bad for you I'm damaged goods. Now that I think abut it this was just or it seemed like typical push pull behavior. I truly believe they know what they're doing. Like someone has mentioned they are masters of manipulation, it's tactic that they have adopted from a very early age but nevertheless every action and movement we do, granted we are not under the influence, is thought of prior to carrying it out. How will this discussion benefit me? I'd like to think it was purely BPD because someone couldn't have been this toxic, selfish, cruel, indifferent, a literal rollercoaster of emotions, but then again her behavior at times, seemed to be done on purpose to spite me because in her mind I was bad.

[willtimeheal]

Iamdizzy,

My BPD used to tell me also that "she was broken" and that "she was no good for me."  She would verbally and emotionally abuse me and then hide behind the fact that she was "broken"  and that everyone in her life leaves her.  Total manipulation because I wanted to prove to her that I wasn't like everyone else so I stayed and put up with all the abuse.  So I do believe they understand what they are doing.  But it is so much easier to blame others than look at yourself.  That is why we are all here posting on this board... . because we have the courage to look at ourselves and make the necessary changes and not blame others for our mistakes and behavior.  So I don't buy into the fact that they they don't understand what they are doing.  They make a conscious choice to look the other way.

[Scout99]

I have read these boards over and over and one thing I read a lot is BPDs are master manipulators. Manipulators know exactly what they are doing to get what they want.  The have conditioned themselves to look the other way. It is much easier to blame your past or someone else then to take good long look at yourself and make the necessary changes. My ex used to complain that everyone leaves her... . then guess what... . go get help and figure out why and quit complaining.

I think it is important to distinguish between what motivates and drives a person with a severe mental disorder and how it feels to be on the receiving end of behaviors that are motivated by their disorder.

I can truly agree with that to experience being manipulated within the realm of a r/s feels horrible. But there is certainly a difference between a master manipulation of a malicious mind and the manipulations of a child who has learned that if I scream loud enough in the store my parents might silence me with giving me what I want... .

If we take it one step even further to the infant who yells to get mommy to come because they are hungry or fear she is not there anymore. That too is a form of manipulation... . And that comes closer to the forms of manipulations that take place when a pwBPD is involved... .

They manipulate motivated by fear. Fear of being abandoned, fear of engulfment, fear of their own feelings of discomfort. Much of the motivating factors behind BPD behavior is intolerance to feeling uncomfortable. Their emotions run more high than normal peoples from a neurological perspective... . More activity in the cortex of the brain, simply put... . hence extreme difficulty in self soothing.

Now a narcissist, or even more so a person with antisocial traits, like a sociopath can manipulate with more of a malicious intent. And unfortunately some people with BPD also have narcissistic or even antisocial traits, depending on how the disorder is formed... . The borders between these disorders are not clear cut... .

Therefore when one reads on forums like this, which are soo important whether or not one is in or out of a r/s, one also has to understand that a large majority of people here, myself included have been wounded from relationships with people having these disorders... . And since manipulation hurts, we also tend to want to think that it must be coming from a malicious intent. Because we function in logic. And it would be more logical if there was an evil intent... . And also easier to detach from and understand if a person can be said to know what they are doing... . and understand the ramifications of their actions... .

Most people with BPD have however a very poor understanding of logic, at least if there can be emotions involved. If emotions are involved, logic is out when it comes to pwBPD. They function totally through lack of impulse control and are motivated by fear and emotional chaos once their feelings are disrupted. It is a sick behavior coming from a disordered mind.

And if all it took was that they simply just "grew up and started acting responsibly like everybody else" then there wouldn't be any need for a diagnosable disorder called BPD. Then we could just "fix them" with some discipline, tough parenting and lessons of manors... .

The biggest problem is that as they are extremely immature on an emotional level, they are just as mature on an intellectual level as most other people, so in their darkest hours, they do understand that they wreak havoc in other peoples lives. Something most people having been involved with a pwBPD can give witness of having heard in their rants and speeches at times... . Stuff like, I cause nothing but pain to the people who mean the most to me, you should stay away from me... . Now that too can be taken as self serving or victimizing, but most of the time it is also quite simply the truth... . They know it, but can't help it. Because on a deeper level, they just don't get how it always ends up that way... . Because the answer would require understanding of logic and mastering the ability of learning from ones experiences and understanding the grey areas of life and not just the black and white... . The manipulation skill is acquired through years of black and white thinking and is a pure instinctual survival skill. Not a craft.

It is the result of a lifetime of emotional chaos and the ever present fear of the awaiting catastrophe... . and through that comes either the rage, the manipulations or the please don't leave me or the cheating or whatever they dash into trying to escape the discomfort.

At least this is my take on it... . from my experience... .

[Reg]

Hi Iamdizzy,

My ex told me a few times just the same.  There are moments when they know that they have a problem.  Just as alcoholics do it in moments.  But an alcoholic has made the choice to drink to forget, a BPD did not have that luxury... .

Psychiatrists are agreeing on the matter that BPD is triggered in very early childhood.  These are not my words.  The way of acting is triggered at that time of age in an unconscious way.

In moments that were rather rare, my ex was telling me she cried for no reason, was not able to think that there were 1001 things going through her head at the same time, that she was ashamed, not worthy of me, etc, I've seen the real scared woman on that moment.  But it changes from one moment to another.  The problems seem to be quite a lot larger then that.  

Mirroring makes them parotting (or playing chameleon) one moment this person, and another moment another person, so you never know in advance who they will be today or the next minute even.  And their thinking may just lead to actions you don't expect to happen, and they know even not themselves how this happens anymore. They have little or no identity at all.

Having seen the influence of BPD's on one another, the influences from all sides, which I could sometimes identify from which side or what person they came, I know it is more then a serious mess in their head.

I've seen numerous examples of bending the truth in a certain direction to get attention, I've been personally the victim of this, and had to file official complaints on the matter with the police.  They imagine things and these things become the truth.  They don't even know the reality or the facts anymore.  What's even better, my complaints concern a known BPD who lived in my street and which I stopped twice from committing suicide !  As she couldn't get me, she decided to take revenge by seducing my ex !  She doesn't realise anything of what she does and did.  :)o I hate her ! Yes ! I still do. But do I understand she can't help it due to the mess in her head, yes !

I'm not here to protect them, I'm not here to sympathize for them, I'm here because I wanted to heal from my wounds.  For the past six months I've read a lot on the matter.  There is a lot of bull on the internet on the matter, even written by non recovered BPD's ! Everything I know now, makes me realize how sad they are as a person.  And can't help it.  It is the BPD.

I saved once the life of my stephdaughter, or at least saved her from getting seriously hit by a car.  My ex would never forget this she said, later it was actually my fault this had happened, I never talked about it again.  They have big holes in their memories (my ex often said I don't remember that, or I had forgotten about that), possibly caused by some form of post traumatic stress and the other mess in their head.  Which just adds to the problems in their head.  I have the memory of an elephant concerning important things LOL, I never forget them.

However I do completely agree on the matter that they should seek help.  My ex first said yes, I have a problem, four days later, she had a problem but no BPD (I actually found out that this was something her egocentric and possibly narcistic husband had told her) and after that she had no longer a problem, words coming from other borderlines... .  go figure !  Half of her group of actual friends are for the moment borderlines !  They fight, are friends again, accuse one another of BPD, to us it's a real circus of unbelievable events... .  No soap on tv can get this level... .

It just shows that influences are so strong on them, that they loose complete touch with reality... .

I'm not happy with the fact that she doesn't seek help.  I'm not happy with the fact that she goes on destroying lives, that of her own, and that of others.  I'm not happy that she is destroying the life of her own daughter, who is already showing seriously emotional problems with loss.

What we see as manipulation is a self defence system for shame and hurt that they use since childhood.  It is what they have become.  One person filled with fear and shame without any other real content. They don't even understand their own actions.  They don't understand love as we do it, they understand nothing on the matter of emotions at all ! They can't even trust their own brain anymore !   Yes it is all the BPD, in a way they have become the BPD... .

I know a BPD who is terrified of fears when driving at speeds of 60 miles on a highway, and I know a BPD who usually drives at 130 miles per hour on the highway.  There's no logic, none at all... .

What is needed is a lot more awareness for this problem.  Possibilities to force them into help if necessary (I know specialists on the matter will not agree with me), save the children from living in such circumstances and to become damaged goods themselves with a high risk of BPD.  The number of BPD's is growing, actually 1/5 in my country of the patients in psychiatry are BPD.  I think we should also consider the number of people in a depression in a hospital due to BPD's and their actions.  We would save tons on public and other health care !

But we forget one thing, it's all about shame and fears in their head.  Psychiatry, certainly in my country is still very stigmatizing.  You have to be crazy.  Crazy does not really exist even... .  They are all disorders, triggered by traumatic events. In the unconscious.  So if one seeks help, they get a stigma.  He or she is crazy.  Not ! They can't help it that it happened to them.  If someone goes to the doctor for a health problem, it is normal.  If someone sees a therapist over here and in many countries in all of Europe, they are stigmatized and crazy.  Would you like to be stigmatized for the rest of your life ?  Think about it... .  It gives more shame, and more fears, just the two most important things they have to get rid off... .  It needs a lot of guts to do this, the one thing they actually lack,because they can't make emotional decisions and don't keep them, unwillingly... .

They need to learn the skills of emotion, they have to reorganize thinking in a new way.  Call it a speed course of normal emotional behavior if you want to.  But remember they have a very long way to go.  What is normal for us since 20, 30, 40 years or more is completely new for them.  And so extremely scary.  They have to learn all of these skills that took us so long in two or three years of therapy.  I would be scared myself !

I think if there's one thing we non's should do however is not to think in black and white as the borderlines.  Otherwise, I think we are no better then they are.  It has taken me months to understand that myself.  And I'm not scared to say it, I have been thinking in the same way many of us here still do.  We seek an explanation, and I was having the same ideas.  It just wasn't possible they didn't realize what they were doing.  At the end I had to say yes, they do not realize it.

I think that is the positive message of BPD.  It's not them.  It's the BPD, all of it.  For me it's relief.  It explains a lot.  As some of you may have read, I'm writing a book on my relationship.  All of her behaviour is now crystal clear to me, and I also explained why it is. It is like math (though that never was my strongest side LOL) saying two plus two is four.  It is !  And I'm so happy and thankful my problems are so much smaller then theirs finally !

Reg

[Reg]

Scout99 I think you have said it in much better way then I tried to do.

[Cooper10]

Scout99 and Reg, I completely agree.  Brilliant and well-said.

BPD is a lose-lose situation.  They hurt themselves and they hurt the victims.  The harmful effects on us can be so powerful that they blur the distinction of malicious intent versus illness.  Insanity is a mental illness.  The insanity defense allows a person who commits a crime to avoid liability where, at the time of the crime, the person did not appreciate the nature or quality or wrongfulness of their acts.  This doesn't mean that the crime is committed without consequences or that we don't hold them responsible--the mentally ill person typically is institutionalized rather than imprisoned.  But the law has decided it is inappropriate to assign criminal liability where a person didn't have the mental state to appreciate that s/he was committing a crime.

Though it looks different than insanity, BPD is a mental illness also.  I don't think that means that we as nons are required to suffer the effects of that--BPD is not a free pass to hurt others just like insanity is not a free pass to commit crimes.  To understand the illness helps us to make sense of everything, but it doesn't change that we should not continue to be in unhealthy relationships with them.  In that way, like the mosquito example, it really doesn't matter what the motivation is as far as our continued interactions with them are concerned.  Once, my ex did something so blatantly hurtful that it was mind blowing.  In the aftermath, he told me he didn't mean to hurt me and asked me to decide whether he was an idiot or a jerk, begging for another chance if I believed the former.  I told him it didn't matter when the effects of his actions were the same.  In trying to help him realize this I asked, "if I was killed in a car accident with a drunk driver who didn't mean to hurt me or shot in the head by someone in cold blood, would it make a difference to you whether I died because someone intended to kill me or not?  I would be just as dead either way."

[tailspin]

dizzy,

My ex loved to pontificate about "free will" yet was never able to apply this concept to his own life.  I think he really did know the pain and hurt he caused others was "wrong/bad/black" but was never able to reconcile this knowledge with what he was able or willing to do about it... . which was nothing.

I do believe he tried to control his mental illness but he chose to never take responsibility for it.  Knowing some (abnormal) reactions are beyond your control is one thing, but refusing to take responsibility for what you do in response to these reactions is a choice.

tailspin

[willtimeheal]

All valid points.  But it does not take away the responsibility of their actions.  I am sorry but it doesn't.  My ex BPD who was an alcoholic for the majority of our relationship as well used to tell me it was my fault she drank... . she would say with a smile on her face, "you bought it for me."  There is little I can do when she orders drinks at dinner in a restaurant.  That little smile and remark demonstrate she was throwing blame.  My exBPD would always say her family was dysfunctional.  She knew it and she knew that inorder to have a some what normal life she would have to distance herself from them.  She would tell me that.  When she was in therapy her therapist told her the same thing.  But she choose to stay with them... . With the dysfunction and she quit therapy.  That this a choice to live in that chaos.  It was easier to stay in the chaos and blame others than to make the necessary changes.

[Scout99]

All valid points.  But it does not take away the responsibility of their actions.  I am sorry but it doesn't.  My ex BPD who was an alcoholic for the majority of our relationship as well used to tell me it was my fault she drank... . she would say with a smile on her face, "you bought it for me."  There is little I can do when she orders drinks at dinner in a restaurant.  That little smile and remark demonstrate she was throwing blame.  My exBPD would always say her family was dysfunctional.  She knew it and she knew that inorder to have a some what normal life she would have to distance herself from them.  She would tell me that.  When she was in therapy her therapist told her the same thing.  But she choose to stay with them... . With the dysfunction and she quit therapy.  That this a choice to live in that chaos.  It was easier to stay in the chaos and blame others than to make the necessary changes.

I get you completely!

No it doesn't make them get a free card from responsibility. The difference is as non's we can exercise control at will. We can choose to silence our emotions and go into logic mode if needed. Now even that can be hard enough.Sometimes even a cinnamon bun can take control of us, several times a week even... .  But we can still do it way easier than a person with a personality disorder ever can.

But I agree with you that not jumping to the chance of getting help and keep on trying is also a choice. However again. For somebody not having a PD quitting alcohol even with a lot of help can be pretty hard to do and many never succeed... . Doing it with a PD makes it that much harder... .

If a non chooses to stay in addiction or even in a dysfunctional r/s it is a sign of choosing not to take responsibility. When a person with PD does it, it is partly a choice, and partly a belief that they just can't make it. Taking responsibility might be a thing they wish the most that they could. I know it is for my SO BPD. He wishes so much he could follow through. And he takes on loads of responsibility in his work. But as soon as something involving emotions come to play, if so just a puny phone call w someone at work he can't immediately please - his whole world crumbles and falls apart... . Suddenly he can't even spell the word responsibility, but is instead all feelings... . Because they overpower and overwhelm him... . I have watched it so many times from the side, and have come to realize that no matter how hard I try I don't even come close to understanding how it feels for him in those situations... . Simply because I am not wired the same way in my head... .

The example you bring up here, is clear cut from your non pd perspective. Of course your ex BPD gf should have remained in therapy. Of course it would have been better for her to get away from bad relatives. That's logic for you and for me... .

For her it would be going through with the toughest separation thing she ever would have been able to imagine and willingly force herself to get to what she fears the most - abandonment from the only people, dysfunctional or not, that still is a part of what is consistent in her life and choose to go to a place of constant discomfort that is the price for learning our way of dealing with things, or not learn really but learn how to mimic... .

Therapy can be a big help, but it is not a cure. Emotions rule the BPD, not logic or reason. I am a firm believer in therapy. But realistically, a person with a severe PD doesn't become a normal person because of therapy. They can learn to mechanically mimic skills and tools not to make life such a living h*ll for people around them, making it for instance easier to keep a job or even a r/s perhaps depending on the quality of the therapy offered... . Panic attacks, some anxiety issues, phobia and depression can be cured with therapy, but not as or yet PD's... .

Learning coping skills that might make the world of difference for people around them doesn't necessarily really make them feel that much better... . It doesn't mostly even silence the emotional chaos on the inside of them, it only teaches them how to endure remaining in the pain without releasing it... . So it is not necessarily a win win for them... . again depending on the severity of the disorder... .

I have come to believe that sometimes staying in the chaos their in might actually be the best choice for some of them, in some cases. And then again the worst for others. PwBPD are just not all alike... .

Important though, and what I believe you are really after, is the fact that we who get ourselves involved in r/s with people who have these disorders are not in any way obligated to stay within a dysfunctional relationship with a person who is driving the living daylights out of us just because they have a disordered mind. We do have a choice! And we are fully equipped to take responsibility for our choices and our actions. And can choose to bail out. Heal and see a T and truly change our lives... . They don't really have the same plethora of options... . They can choose between living a roller coaster life with extreme highs and lows or a perhaps more controlled life behavior wise, but never really without the undertow of burning fear and chaos inside... . They can't ever get totally free from their disorder or from themselves. Non's can. It is however a very sad truth... .

[papawapa]

It is 100% choice. As humans we act. We make choices based on perceived discomfort and we choose from available means to reach our desired end of feeling better. It makes no difference if a person has BPD or not, we are all still acting individuals.


I do not believe pwBPD have no empathy, can't feel love, or any of the other such things I have read many people on here claim. What I do believe is their brains are wired differently than ours. They become overwhelmed by their emotions and to overcome their discomfort they take actions that they have learned work for them. They become so overwhelmed that they do not think about what the extended consequences of their actions might be. What they have is a set of coping tools they use as a means to quell their inner suffering.

[Iamdizzy]

Yes!

Their past history of abuse is horrible and I allowed so many things slide. I've stated before I didn't see her abusing me, I saw her abusoers rather than seeing HER for her behavior. I let so much crap slide because of it. I'm not beginning to realize that like some of you on here have said IT DOES NOT EXCUSE HER BEHAVIOR. It's up to you. There were many people here who have suffered from so much pain and traumatic experiences, it's up to us to THINK about what we are going to do. For example, I had my older sister diagnose with cancer at a relativity young age, thank god she is in remission. What did she do? During and after? She kept positive, moved ahead. No one could say having cancer isn't traumatic. One of my best friends was deployed a few years ago came back and was completely messed up in the head. He went and looked for professional help. The things he had to do/see I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

My BPDex? Went to therapy 3x and each therapist, according to her, was horrible and she never went back. Btw she was forced to go by her parents. She needs help she knows it but does not look for it. Rather, looks for guys to have sex and satisfy her, that's her ill fated therapy. I have no doubt they know what they're doing they are grown adults.

[thisyoungdad]

Reading everyone's thoughts and experiences reminds me of a piece of my relationship I had not thought about. My ex wife always from the earliest days was very sensitive, not necessarily with me although yes at times, but just in general. She cried a lot, still does, over things that I was baffled she was crying about. Now we have a 3 year old. She is in this stage of pouting and crying and whining with me to get what she wants (she is a daddys girl and tries to play that card with me) and it is a very conscious thing on her part. Lucky for me it is a normal 3 year old thing and I get choices on how to deal with it. But it reminds me so much of my wife, in that young child like world where crying gets you what you need or want. Of course now my child is very verbal but even 6 months ago couldn't express herself super well and crying was a tool she used. So when I think about what my ex cries about, and what my daughter cries about (and her other little friends) it is strikingly similar at times the way they respond. I think it is that my ex is emotionally stunted at a young age for a variety of reasons. Interesting perspective though for me, because I used to find it so annoying she would cry over what felt like everything. Again, very sad really especially for my ex because she knows she is responding out of proportion or inapproriate for the situations. I think of how many times I just didn't know and treated her poorly because of my lack of knowledge about what was going on.

[Reg]

Hi thisyoungdad,

A most interesting comparison that you are making indeed.  Mine did cry a lot herself also.  In times she had a reason, but most of thime she didn't even know herself why she was crying, and I think these were the most honest moments.  Very often they seem to make up a reason, just like that... .

If you think about how poorly you have treated her, you should remind yourself of how much worse she did treat you.  We are no therapists and they are the only ones who actually need help (a bit or a lot, depending on the will to improve of the personin question).  I did let go of my guilt on that matter.

I really is what it is, the borderline, and that I can't do anything about it.  If she would have tried to see a therapist for this she would have received full support from my side, at least as a good friend.   But she preferred to listen to those who made with a really bad influence on her life.   I'm not going to destroy my life any further or again, trying to break down the former Berlin wall as a matter of speaking, all on my own... .

Reg

[danley]

There are  many people in this world that have had childhoods just as bad or worse than a BPD and they don't hurt people they way a BPD does and they take responsibility for their actions. You can distort reality all you want and view the world as unfair and uncaring but it doesn't give anyone the right to abuse or hurt someone else. As far as I am concerned  they have conditioned themselves to turn a blind eye or distort the reality so they can "forget" the abuse they just put someone through. I don't buy that it is all due to unconscious they are willing participants and on some level have an idea what they are  doing. That is why they keep running and running when they hurt someone. They are cowards and it is easier to blame someone else or your past instead of looking at yourself and making the necessary changes. But hey let's keep making excuses for them.

Wow.

That's how I feel about it too.  But then again, I don't know how much BPD plays a part too. I actually called my ex a coward when we broke up. It was the first word that came to mind. I pretty much told him what you wrote. He of course got upset and tried to manipulate by threatening to never give us a chance in the future. He also lashed out a number of excuses but I told him that the common denominator was still his fear of rejection, fear of intimacy, and of course his shame. He about lost it and then started attacking me in ways that I KNOW he knew would hurt me to the core. I guess his motto is AN EYE FOR AN EYE.

[Iamdizzy]

Reg, I too would of supported her all the way. My ex cried perhaps 3 days out of the week, every week. I figured its about her past sexual abuse that's what I was so lenient with her, I let so much slide. I was always there for her and at times I was never as angry as how she made me. She bought me to such points that I could say I've never been that angry before. I've never laid a hand on her but I would flip out but I do not have anger towards myself for that.

I told my ex, my final words to her , you need to find god and a psychologist and from then on never has called me again.  I figure she has a clue that I know about her behavior.

[momtara]

It's hard to know.  They do have SOME control over it.  But not over all of it.  When I finally left my husband, he wouldn't admit to anything.  Slowly, he started admitting to things and going to therapy.  He kind of knew all along that the verbal abuse was wrong.  Or maybe he didn't entirely know.  You know what?  I don't know!  He has descended back into it now, and it is pushing me away when really, deep down, he wants us to get back together. 

It's so terrible that this disease makes people do the opposite of what they really want.

[LosingIt2]

It's a mental/emotional disorder. There are plenty of skeptics out there who scoff at mental illness. If that's how you feel then this probably isn't the right board for you. PwBPD process emotions differently, and it leads to unstable relationships... . that's why this forum exists, to cope with the personality disorder. It's real, they're not making it up. There are probably support groups out there for "my bf/gf is a do*che bag". You can take that approach too, no one is stopping you. We would like our pwBPD to get help, but it's just not that easy. You should hold BPDs accountable the same way you would an alcoholic. It's an illness.

[snappafcw]

"i know im over a month late, but i wasnt sure to reply to you or not.

but anyways, thank you for wishing me a happy birthday and everything else.

hope everything has gotten better for you since everything that happened.

i just wanted you to be happy, i was just so much trouble for you.

& i understand why you blocked me on fb and everything.

be happy.

thanks for everything, take care of yourself."

This is the last ever email that i got from my uBPDexgf  about 6 or 7 weeks ago. She has had other rare small moments of clarity like this one but would quirky resort back to her cruel passive aggressive self with the snide remarks thrown in. The way i see it I really do think her heart deep down is in the right place but having this disorder she will always act on impulse to do anything to make their emotions feel better. I think they are aware of what they are doing but not the hurt they cause at the time because they are trying to survive. its afterwards that they feel the shame and thats generally when they run rather than face their wrong doing. My take on it anyway.

[Iamdizzy]

Snappafcw,

Perhaps you're right, that's a good take on it. I do think her actions are deliberate having BPD is not an excuse. But I don't have BPD I can only speculate that before they fire their cruel words at us, there is a moment in which they say "it's hurtful, you know it's going to hurt them". Perhaps they may feel shame and run away because they can't bare the thought of having hurt yet another person who has loved them.

[Numbers]

Yes, there is much controversy on this topic, both here and on other forums, no matter the attitude towards illness.

I am personally now firmly into "personal choice" territory. Mine could fuction normally in work or with friends. There certainly are invalidating triggers in such environments too, but she chose to act out only in her intimate setting. So, control mechanisms are definitely present and being used. The simple, and therefore almost certainly true, reason for hostile, hurtful and unethical behaviors in relationship is that there is no applicable sanction. Me and all of us here were always considered as easily replaceable.

I can accept that BPD conditioning lays the groundwork for dysfunctional realtionship and that there exists an underlying deficiency or disorder of personality. However, there is supposably a sizable number of BPDs in professional psychology/psychiatric community and I guess much of "oh forgive them they do not know what they are doing" advice comes from such sources.

Further proof from my last recycle:

- At the beginning I said: "please let's not do this if you do not have an understanding, energy and will to improve on what did not work."

- 2 weeks in I said: "we are in good place now, I think we can be really good friends, let's not sacrifice this for another breakup."

- a month later... . triangulation (read definition) > rage > boom.

My messages were clear and very well heard.

[LosingIt2]

Ignorance is bliss.

US: From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle

for members that have exited BPD relationships

[Conundrum]

I am personally now firmly into "personal choice" territory. Mine could fuction normally in work or with friends. There certainly are invalidating triggers in such environments too, but she chose to act out only in her intimate setting. So, control mechanisms are definitely present and being used. The simple, and therefore almost certainly true, reason for hostile, hurtful and unethical behaviors in relationship is that there is no applicable sanction. Me and all of us here were always considered as easily replaceable.

I do not believe that situational competence is evidence of machiavellian intent, but is illustrative of innate inconsistencies present in this relational disorder. While invalidation may occur in the workplace, or with friends, the core abandonment wound more often than not plays out in the most intimate of relationships. When untreated, it is too simplistic to posit that situational control mechanisms can easily be transferred to the relationship in which the abandonment cycle is being replayed--because the nature of untreated emotional dysregulation is that it seeks a specific dynamic in which that particular cycle can be effectively re-enacted.     

I believe that (as nons) our subjective relational expectations do not align with their needs, and that disconnect colors the entire debate. In essence, that is the divide.

If we accept that they developed maladaptive schemas as children, then why do we expect them to process relational connection points in sequential order? Is it because that is how we are used to building meaningful attachments? They do not view attachments as a series of events joined over time carrying sentiment. While it is difficult for us to dissociate from what we perceive as a series of linked relational events carrying sentiment, that is not true for them. They perceive relational continuums as an abstraction.

That ability to meaningfully link relational moments over time, (which motivates behavioral boundaries) is deficient in this disorder. The maladaptive schemas that grew in place permit disassociation from (objectively) meaningful connections. That causes great suffering for nons because our relational values teach us that meaningful connections supercede trivial desires. Consequently, our relational codes of conduct reflect that. Being that they struggle greatly with meaningful relational connections, it is altogether not surprising that they require significantly stronger sensory/emotional stimuli in greater frequency than a non does. What we perceive as willful manipulation is a shame based coping tool--employed to alleviate the pain born from relational disconnects in an attempt to satiate perceived disordered needs.

[Skip]

Does an obese man eat cake because he has an eating disorder or because he chooses to be fat?

[tailspin]

Does an obese man eat cake because he has an eating disorder or because he chooses to be fat?

... . or maybe because cake is delicious 

[Skip]

Does an obese man eat cake because he has an eating disorder or because he chooses to be fat?

... . or maybe because cake is delicious  

Yes.  

Often, when a pwBPD is the most hurtful is when they are fighting back (dysfunctional coping) because they feel they were wronged or cheated (distorted BPD filtering of disappointment) - there can even be a self righteousness to it (satisfaction).

We often have a role in these confrontations.  If we are responsive to the bad behaviors, we are rewarding and encouraging it.  Over time it tends to escalate.

We're here to here to learn to heal from a failed relationship and a relationship is the interaction of two people.

[willtimeheal]

Some people are fat because yes they are to lazy to exercise or they have a genetic predipostion.  But hey... . you can get help for both those things instead of complaining. 

[Clearmind]

Schema Inventory: Take the Test

The "lonely child" is only one schema.

[Inside]

“how much of their behavior (rages) is PD and [how] much is personal choice?”

This is an answer without looking at what’s been posted: ‘Mine’ sure appeared to be ‘forcing’ her tantrums.  The ‘real’ anger she seemed to keep tight inside.  The rest appeared to be an act, almost choreographed.  The worst of her outbursts were far from spontaneous, I'd watch the gears churning… while she monitored my response.  If I remained calm - she’d ratchet it up.  If I ‘fought’ back (verbally), her responses seemed prepared.  

This led me to feel it was by “choice.”  Not to say she wasn’t responding to some inner fear, but it always appeared as though she’d wait for an opportune time to instigate and act.  Yes, nearly theatrical!  She’d also keep an eye open as to ‘who’ was witnessing her tantrum, she seemed to appreciate an audience, likely realizing it led to my further discomfort.  Strange …I felt ‘I could handle and/ or forgive’ such outbursts, but definitely feared ... . explaining them, or my acceptance of them to others; neighbors or friends.

I think ‘they choose’ the time & place – but have an apparent ‘need’ to ... . act on their inner fears.  Make sense    …if only in BPD land ~  

I found this very telling: “they choose to do the hurting before others can hurt them enough to change them... . ”   

I think it’s preemptive.  They know ‘it can’t last,’ so they hasten its demise…  And by attacking, they intend to have ‘you’ feel responsible for the relationship’s demise.  I’ve begun to feel they control their anger quite well … using it as a tool.

“I think people that avoid seeking counseling are like liars that refuse a lie detector test because they know they are guilty”  [also from Slimmiller]

There must be some powerfully overwhelming and terrifying fears going on within their heads.  Can you imagine – we (us ‘non’s’ behavior seems quite benevolent) are perhaps the most loving and giving people (left) in their lives – yet they turn on us   Talk about insanity…  They fear ‘us’... . ?  Or do they simply fear our opinion?  There’s a very hostile world out there, they apparently peg us as ‘their saviors’ (at least for awhile) …then drive us away... . ? 

…let’s see… what have I concluded: They know they’re not right, and no matter how hard they try or pretend - they’re still ‘not right.’  They formulate a pattern of behavior that allows them to survive.  But even they need more than mere survival …so they attempt love.  But like perpetual children, they do not understand the responsibilities of adult love.  They confuse many emotions with love, acting on them all.  Those that gain them attention and affection, they continue, even if it also gets them into trouble.

Given the unconditional love of a parent, they return to us.  And like every other personality disorder (I suspect), even ‘they’ recognize their disordered behavior doesn’t end well.  But no matter how twisted their minds – that’s all they know, and can only ‘compare’ their behavior and its aftermath to that of others.  And since it always comes up lacking or broken, they eventually realize/ assume (deep inside) …it’s their fault.

If they’ve the intelligence to recognize it … do they have the strength to face it?  And do they have the strength to consciously curb their defective instincts … to behave in a way that’s fake and foreign to them … just to fit into ‘our world?’  Personally, I think BPD’s almost exclusively hard-wiring and very little to do with upbringing.  And that’s why I feel it’s nearly impossible for them to ‘get well.’  Unlike PTSD, a trauma I’ve personally learned one can recover from, as it was ‘inflicted’ - as opposed to ‘hardwired,’ BP’s are often doomed.  And, they know it.

What can we do... . ?  What we do …I guess.  Remain stable loving human beings willing to help another in need.  If that person continues to betray our trust, or walk right back to the railing and climb overboard, again … we may eventually get tired of rescuing them …as they no doubt become resentful of being rescued…  I work with ‘cognitively delayed’ youth, in some, I think I’ve witnessed near suicidal intentions, almost ‘instinctive.’  On a higher level, I feel BPD’s exhibit the same inclinations; aware of their inabilities and defects, and incapable of ‘fixing them,’ they appear to endlessly seek a way of masking, numbing, or ending their pain.  And it appears we are used for all those reasons.  They know we love them, but that they can’t love us back.  They need us, like children need their parents … but we need more - and they can’t provide it.

I don’t think they mean to hurt us, or use us…  I think they ultimately feel deeply ashamed for all they’ve taken from us.  Perhaps, after what we give so overwhelms what little they contribute … they drive us away out of guilt.  They can’t face the one-way flow of love and generosity, know they’re incapable of ever matching it …so lash-out at us in anger with themselves.  If we see through it, recognize their pain … even step in to hold them closer – they feel engulfed by guilt and struggle with all they’ve got to get loose!  Aware of our weaknesses, they also know where to strike. 

Do we deserve their wrath?  Of course not, because (from all I’ve read and continue to read around here) – we are as Saintly as anyone … while experiencing a living Hell.  To me, if anyone within this dynamic has a disorder stemming from childhood – it’s us!  Though wired right upstairs, we do appear to respond in an addictive manor to the ‘mirroring’ and unconditional love (we may not have received in childhood) that BPD’s lavish on us at the onset…  And perhaps as people who’ve been hurt … we stand out as less likely to hurt others - and apparently show up quite prominently on a BPD’s radar!  So what seems like a “match made in heaven” …actually IS a match … except for the fact our BPD friends are not who they appear to be.  They’re not ‘us.’  And though we eventually find that out, and they feel guilty … we never appear to forget the feeling of unconditional love they temporarily lavished on us. 

[forgive me …going on... . ]  Are they evil parasites... . ?  Like someone stated … hating them would be like cussing out a mosquito…  And by the time they figure out they are parasites, they hate themselves all the more.  Now – if they only realized some (if not all) of us are willing to live with a few bites - because I think we see more… even more than ourselves reflected back on us.  We see something we love, and deserving of love.  Problem is, they apparently never will, don’t know how we could love something as defective as them … and continue to seek temporary praise for their fake behavior from others in a never ending cycle of dysfunction.  We can only remove ourselves from their equation.  And it’s not that we want to … but that we eventually have to… for what’s left of our sanity ~

[slimmiller]

I am personally now firmly into "personal choice" territory. Mine could fuction normally in work or with friends. There certainly are invalidating triggers in such environments too, but she chose to act out only in her intimate setting. So, control mechanisms are definitely present and being used. The simple, and therefore almost certainly true, reason for hostile, hurtful and unethical behaviors in relationship is that there is no applicable sanction. Me and all of us here were always considered as easily replaceable.

I can accept that BPD conditioning lays the groundwork for dysfunctional realtionship and that there exists an underlying deficiency or disorder of personality. However, there is supposably a sizable number of BPDs in professional psychology/psychiatric community and I guess much of "oh forgive them they do not know what they are doing" advice comes from such sources.


My messages were clear and very well heard.

Yes. The last time mine attempted to apologize I did not even respond in any shape or form. My thought was, why even apologize, its only hollow words and it was never real in the first place? I was just a door mat  

I understand the fact that they do have a genuine problem processing things in their mind normally. That being said, I challange anyone professional or not, to live in my shoes and live the Hell it takes to co-parent with my exBPD and then make excuses for her behaviours. I KNOW she is wired wrong but it is still a choice on some level. She does not spend weeks at a time flopped down with yet another 'soulmate' half my age in a college dorm room halfway across the country and not even call her own kids for weeks at a time because she 'cant help it'. Its a choice on her part to do that. No amount of 'messed up childhood'  excuses that. There are too many folks that have horrid childhoods that go on to at least function within what is considered the 'social norms' to say she HAS to live that way.

I think its partially a social mindset that accepts this kind of 'malfunction' of you will. If we took them (BPDs) back a 100 years I dont think society would be as forgiving of the maladaptive ways that BPDs function and I think they would have to get themselves within the norms of society. Society today kind of makes excuses for this sort of behaviour.

Its sort of like little Johnny has anger issues because of something that happened in the past, little Johnny pokes Susie in the eye for whatever reason because he gets some sort of satisfaction out of it. The parents stand there and tell little Johnny, 'Now Johnny, please stop that, you are hurting your sister'. They reason that he 'cant help what he is doing' because this or that has happened in the past so they dont want to upset him. They allow it to continue because after all 'he cant really help it right?' All the time little Susie is being abused and in pain and yet little Johnny's behaviour is because he has a problem. When in fact if the parents grabbed little Johnny, administered some firm discipline and made him go hungry for a few meals he would figure out pretty damn quick that, that kind of crap wont be tolerated.

My point is, mental disorder or not, it is being accepted and too many of us nons are being abused. And yes the BPDs know good and well they are inflicting pain but they enjoy it (at least on some level). They just choose not to own their own problems and instead force pain on the ones that love them the most

I am one of the most open minded logical folks you will ever meet and I just have a great deal of difficulty in giving them the 'its not a choice' pass

And yes I know, its my choice in how I will deal with it. I can not change her

[tailspin]

Does an obese man eat cake because he has an eating disorder or because he chooses to be fat?

... . or maybe because cake is delicious  

Yes.  

Often, when a pwBPD is the most hurtful is when they are fighting back (dysfunctional coping) because they feel they were wronged or cheated (distorted BPD filtering of disappointment) - there can even be a self righteousness to it (satisfaction).

We often have a role in these confrontations.  If we are responsive to the bad behaviors, we are rewarding and encouraging it.  Over time it tends to escalate.

We're here to here to learn to heal from a failed relationship and a relationship is the interaction of two people.

I saw this smug satisfaction with my ex and misinterpreted it for arrogance/entitlement as he seemed to relish the opportunity to inflict/deflect pain.

I now understand how there must have been some sort of anxiety release for him when this happened; like letting air out of an over-inflated tire or dodging a bullet. The temporary satisfaction he felt was a result of how it made him feel and had nothing whatsoever to do with the pain it caused me.  There was no room for my pain. 

I resented and hated him for this and was consumed by an anger that drained my energy. 

My healing began the moment I found the courage to trust myself enough to let go of him.

tailspin

[Skip]

I think its partially a social mindset that accepts this kind of 'malfunction' of you will. If we took them (BPDs) back a 100 years I dont think society would be as forgiving of the maladaptive ways that BPDs function and I think they would have to get themselves within the norms of society. Society today kind of makes excuses for this sort of behaviour.

Is there a social mindset that excuses a pwBPD?

One could also say that this is a highly stigmatized disorder.  The most extreme cases of this spectrum disorder have been portrayed by Hollywood as "typical".  And the disorder is more commonly identified with Jodi Arias than Marilyn Monroe or Hitler rather than Princess Dianna who all who appeared to have the disorder.  

But more important for all of us than any social statement is knowing that we have a choice. We can chose to have a realistic understanding of what happened in our lives so that we can pick up the pieces and make the changes we need and group forward... . or we can chose to look at this as "a weak society" or "good vs evil".

In your case, this has everything to do with co-parenting and helping your children.  As a person with BPD your ex will respond somewhat predictability to certain actions on your part and knowing this gives you the best insight on how to manage your ongoing co-parenting relationship for the benefit of the children.  

Your wife cheated on you and that is a Class A violation, a mortal sin, and one of the worse things that can happen to anyone.  You have every reason to be angry and resentful (A).  You also have a great responsibility to your children (B).  

As hard as it is to say this, to some extent, you have to chose.

We all do.

[LosingIt2]

This article is helpful and relevant to the turn this topic has taken.

The formation of the word ‘non’ has in itself setup a framework for ‘us verses them. Using the application of the word non, splitting is unnoticeably engaged providing an unyielding temptation to split a non as all-good and the borderline as all-bad... .

... . Black & white thinking is something that children and borderlines do quite often. Once some nons are actively engaged and enmeshed with the borderline personality, they too may begin to take on the primitive defensive mechanism of black and white thinking (splitting). At this stage a non becomes what may be referred to as a post-non. I have seen many examples of post-non thinking using absolute sweeping statements such as, “All borderlines are evil” and “Everyone in a relationship with a borderline is wasting their time” and “Borderlines never get better.” Notice the operative words “All, Everyone and Never.”

More here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=49987.msg636996#msg636996

[Iamdizzy]

BPD is a highly. Stigmatized disorder and in today's world people would just refer to them as being crazy (beep) people. A BPD wouldn't be able to carry that shame because they're already overly saturated with shame. I thank you all for your posts very insightful.

[danley]

Sometimes I feel like It's a confliction of both. A struggle of sorts. I've been thinking about this topic for a few days now. My ex painted me black as can be a few months ago. Accusing me of being selfish, in denial, only caring about myself and feelings. Flash forward to three weeks ago and now I'm special, caring, giving, and everything else wonderful. He has been saying a lot now like he used to say while we were together ... . that he cares about me, respects my feelings and me, that I'm so sweet, he appreciates my compassion, etc. Of course I'd like to believe all the kind words from him but It's so eerie how he flip flops from one extreme to the other. I believe It's the disorder but I think it has to do with choice too in a way. It's almost as if I can see his mind churning and fighting to make sense and find clarity in things. Seems like when he's in a calm state and feels comforted he chooses to believe and see the good. But when he's in a frenzy and hating on himself he chooses to pick out real or imagined bads about everything and me. Or rather, I become the dumpster for his self loathing and pain.

[TakeFlight]

OK so, two lines from BPD women I have dated:

"I try to mind ___ my boyfriends"

"If we ever broke up, I feel like I would have to make you hate me" (there was no just "breaking up" to her)

I think we should all rememeber that underneath these PD, these people have generic personalities as well. They are simply magnified by the manifestation of the PD. SO, rememebr that there are good ppl in this world and there are bad ppl. Some of them are BPD, some are not. So theres a good chacne alot of us got involved with partners who less the BPD, probably would have been pretty crumby people anyways. For others, there may have been some decent personalities under all the BPD.

But at the end of the day, yes they are certaintly at times aware of when they are hurting people, and may even plan it (and state it to you!) in advance.

My thoughts... .

[Clearmind]

I get your point TakeFlight - a little B&W - Borderlines are not all bad or all good  although granted they paint us as either or... . we are however not Borderline - my ex was good and bad - that was who he was... . its tempting to want to split them because we hurt.

[Iamdizzy]

I agree with you clear mind, we should not split them black because they were not always bad but I guess we have that tendency because when it was bad it was hell.

After reading the many posts nd thinking about it, I've changed my mind to think that maybe they do know their behavior but its uncontrollable, something they can't hold in, like a full bladder I don't know. This is all a whirlwind of confusion.

[Want2know]

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