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Author Topic: Don't let psychology terms make you stupid  (Read 892 times)
Skip
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« on: August 19, 2013, 03:55:10 PM »

 

There is a great deal of misuse of psychology terms on the Leaving Board. This is a problem mostly associated with this board.  A lot of this has to do with a general bias to assign pathologies to things that hurt us.  Part of this is the comfort in believing the relationship failure had little to do with us.  

I thought I'd give everyone a heads up and challenge the group to be more diligent in the use of terms and in advising each other.

These are normal things.

As a general rule, most psychology terms used on this board describe human actions - not pathologies.  For example, mirroring is part of every new romantic relationship.  It's normal.  Idealization is also part of most new romantic relationship.

If we believe that idealization is a BPD pathology, or mirroring is a BPD pathology, and we ask each other if our partner idealized or mirrored, then we will quickly conclude everyone of our partners has BPD and all BPD are the same.

The same is true for all the terms like triangulation.  Triangulation is common when there is conflict in any relationship.  It is not a BPD phenomenon.  Triangulation is not synonymous with having another romantic interest.

Recycling is not a BPD pathology - and if it were, many of us would be BPD because or surveys show that members her initiate reconnection as often our more than their partners.

Please - take a day and read the questions board - or the blog - or the website.  Get these concepts down so you can work them - and help others with them.

What Can We Conclude

1. If you think this is about your partner and they are a sad weak human being, remember Bowen's theory which says we mate (in general) with our emotional equals.  This doesn't mean we have the same struggles, but it does mean we operate at the same levels of emotional immaturity and unrealistic expectations.

2. That these were emotionally immature relationships in which both parties contributed.  That both parties likely had unrealistic expectations of the other that ultimately drove conflict.  

3. Most of our members partners had BPD traits at varying levels from severe to mild to temporary - the bias being on the lighter side.  In general, they were charming, desirable, and emotionally immature (part of which we found very attractive).

4. And that part of the suffering we have now feeling is because of our own rejection and abandonment anxieties.

What Can We Do With Knowledge?

Break this all down (above) so that we understand it, can learn how to heal our own wounds, and build better relationship skills.  This is why we are here.  

Analyzing BPD is important in the context of understand 1/2 of the relationship dysfunction, so that we more easily learn the other half (or 60% or 20%) and start to heal it, mature it, teach it skills for the future.

Traps To Avoid

Thinking one size fits all.  Maybe at 35,000 ft it all looks the same, but up close each of these relationships are like fingerprints - yes they all contain loops, whorls and arches - but each is unique in how these pieces come together.

Thinking you were prey.

Thinking it was all your partner, and if you get far away from the "lion", everything will be OK.

Who cares?

All the senior members do.  Each generation here healed with the help of the generation before.  As staff, we have tried to facilitate each generation help the next in a faster and better way than the previous generation - that's why all the workshop, articles, lessons, the distinguished members - we are capturing and streamlining the knowledge base to get the message through better - and it is working.  People are healing more completely.

That is what this note is about.  It's a "take a minute and think about this" note.  Then go back to what you were working on.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

So let's weigh in!

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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 05:49:57 PM »

Hi Skip, I sort of figured that one out already. The progressions of healthy relationships are not any different than those of unhealthy ones. I don't see any reason that a person that is sick couldn't have a healthy relationship with the care and support that would be required of the healthy partner. I for one didn't have the right set of tools to deal with all of the anger and condescension that I endured. There didn't seem to be any willingness from the other half of the r/s to want to make it better.
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 09:34:26 PM »

Skip,

Thanks for this important reminder.

It is difficult sometimes to sort out what is normal behavior from what was unusual behavior. And even more difficult to sort out if something was unusual versus if it just pressed our own buttons making for an explosive situation.
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 10:01:51 PM »

Great post Skip.

It was the extremes of the mirroring and idealization from our pwBPD friends, beyond the norm, that should have been our first red flag from them, and our own first red flag to ourselves - in that we didn't seem to mind at all, or care that it was above and beyond a normal relationship. Maybe we didn't even know! And think about how many members comment that they fear their future "normal" relationships with its normal intensity levels, won't satisfy them.

I like this a lot:

Excerpt
That these were emotionally immature relationships in which both parties contributed.  That both parties likely had unrealistic expectations of the other that ultimately drove conflict.

Ahh... . the things they did, and the things WE did! Tit for tat on the playground. If like me, you were so easily drawn into that child-like dynamic, it is worthwhile to understand why. Also worthwhile to explore why we created this fantasy along with them, about them, that we needed, but was never really about them, and never really real. That they only really just went along with, until they couldn't.
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 11:13:56 PM »

OK I'm confused.

In the Lessons section, BPD traits, mirroring is the following section:

3) The term mirroring at BPD Family has come over the years to mean an extreme version of what Boothman talks about - basically a person with BPD becoming a chameleon.  I'm not sure of the origin of this usage - I think the "non" communities just adopted it.  Members often use "mirroring" to describe the way a person with Borderline Personality Disorder "changes themselves" to gain your love.   It's not just about mimicking your style, but even about mimicking your "dreams".   Many members describe how a BP picked up on their values and modeled themselves after their dream girl (guy) - taking that persona on.  A BPD can be one way in one relationship and very different in another based on what they think that person deeply desires. 

Often the BP eventually comes to resent their SO for this -  feeling that they sacrificed themselves and the SO did not live up to their end.


This is basically what I have understood from my reading, from this board, and from my T.  This is what I experienced.  My uBPD stbXw basically created a persona that was based on my values, beliefs, and interests.  None of it turned out to be true.  In large part because she lies so earnestly, I KNEW that this was the real her.  During the 20 years that we were together, I heard her say things or see her do things that were not consistent with this persona that I KNEW.  But always she would explain it away and the person that I KNEW would make another appearance for a while.

Now she is with someone else, and she is a completely different person.  Opposite interests, beliefs, etc.

So if Mirroring is a normal part of relationships and relates to mimicking facial expressions, etc.  what term are we to use to indicate this extreme Persona make over with anyone that they are around?
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 11:21:47 PM »

Skip will explain his thoughts, I will just chime in with that fact that we all mirror. Like Skip said. It's just that a pwBPD mirrors to the extreme.

Any and all behaviors of a pwBPD are not alien, just extreme versions of what we consider normal in society. Does that make sense? It's the extreme part that makes the mirroring different.

Here is basic mirroring: www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology)

Though that said, Skip, I too would like more color around when you said Temporary BPD traits. Smiling (click to insert in post) Again, I think you're just talking about extreme emotional behavior, curious what you meant defined by you.

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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 11:26:32 PM »

Yah, I think Skip was just trying to point out that mirroring isn't pathological per se. However I'd argue that the extreme mirroring that pwBPD sometimes engage in could be.
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2013, 11:26:57 PM »

I do not believe that self-healing from a close, long term encounter with BPD is possible. In fact, I don't believe that any healing from it is possible. It is not normal for a person to be hated to their core for any reason other than a reason for which they should be hated to their core. And BPD, make no mistake, is experienced as that level of hatred by the non. No matter how flawed or in error the non comes to understand himself to have been in the relationship, none of it matches in correspondence to his experience with the pwBPD.

Psychology is of no use, nor is its terminolgy as a means to label events so they can be better understood. The experience with BPD renders psychology terminology useless. The experience produces a terminology all its own for the individual. A personal languge of understanding and depth.

While I do not believe healing from a long term encounter with BPD is possible, what I do believe is that the encounter can make the non into more himself than he ever knew he is. That's something, but whether it is fair compensation -or whether he could have gotten there without the BPD encounter - is debatable.
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 11:41:33 PM »

JSA, how's it going? Just wanted to say that you certainly raise an interesting point that the persona changes from one to the next. I had the miserable experience with triangulation after my BPDex figured that she was done with me and took up with another man. I saw firsthand how she did the same thing with him that she did with me. Very creepy. All she wanted to do was talk about him so I learned quite a bit. Yes... . she used exactly the same tactic and same style to lure him in. She played the exact victim. She needed saving. She couldn't live at home with her dysfunctional family. She told me all about his work. She expressed interest in all of his activities. Same thing she did with me. She told me how she wanted off drugs. She told him the same thing. Exact same way our relationship started. Just a new sucker. I told her that (now get this) she had no life of her own only his. Her reply was "So what? When I was with you all I had was your life!"  From that exchange I saw firsthand how a pwBPD has no identity of their own and the coping mechanism in action. It was creepy.
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 02:04:20 AM »

Perfidy

I had the miserable experience with triangulation after my BPDex figured that she was done with me and took up with another man. I saw firsthand how she did the same thing with him that she did with me.

Like skip stated, there is a some misuse quite common here on bpdfamily.com using the word triangulation.

Here you can find more information about it: What does triangulation mean?
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 08:19:29 AM »

Surnia I read the description of triangulation. It seemed as though she wasn't secure in her next relationship. I felt as though she were using me to make her new partner jealous and put her closer to him. Would this not be an example of unhealthy triangulation?
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 08:37:31 AM »

It seemed as though she wasn't secure in her next relationship. I felt as though she were using me to make her new partner jealous and put her closer to him. Would this not be an example of unhealthy triangulation?

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

And sorry I apologize, I misunderstood you.
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2013, 10:29:02 AM »

Surnia I read the description of triangulation. It seemed as though she wasn't secure in her next relationship. I felt as though she were using me to make her new partner jealous and put her closer to him. Would this not be an example of unhealthy triangulation?

I think the most descriptive term for this is jealousy induction. If you Google this term you will get a much more targeted description of what you are describing -  why people induce jealousy.  And if this happened in your relationship, you might get a clearer picture of what was going on with him/her in this... .

Several expressive and relatively relational motives have been suggested for jealousy induction. Angry or frustrated people report intentionally creating jealousy to hurt their partner or cause emotional distress (White, 1980). Sheets et al. (1997) found that among those who had attempted to make their partners jealous, a substantial majority ‘(87%) had done so to gain their partners’ attention,’ whereas ‘less than a quarter (24%) had done so to increase their partners’ commitment, and less than a fifth (18%) had used jealousy as a mate-retention strategy’ (p. 392). Others may induce jealousy because they want to test the relationship, want more attention, more time or simply to ‘be taken out more’ (White, 1980, p. 223). Jealousy may also serve self-expansion goals. People may deliberately induce jealousy to bolster their self-esteem (White, 1980). People who feel inadequate in a relationship or are themselves jealous, suspicious, or fearful may intentionally create jealousy to gain self-esteem and confidence. People who experience these feelings may have a predisposition to be jealous (Mathes & Severa, 1981; Sharpsteen, 1995). Such individuals may even create these feelings in a partner to turn the tables. In this sense, ‘inducing jealousy may be understood, in part, as a power tactic’ (White, 1980, p. 222). This would help account for why a person’s sense of power-lessness mediates reactions to jealousy (Rotenberg, Shewchuk, & Kimberley, 2001) and why jealousy induction is associated with need for control and use of aggression in relationships (Brainerd, Hunter, Moore, & Thompson, 1996). A person involved in a romantic relationship can gain control by leading the partner to believe an attractive alternative exists. The jealous partner must respond to maintain the relationship, thereby enhancing the other’s power.

www.unc.edu/courses/2006spring/spcl/091p/016/JealousyInduction.pdf
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2013, 11:12:28 AM »

Thank you Skip. That's why I read the posts... I want to learn.
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2013, 11:49:08 AM »

Surnia I read the description of triangulation. It seemed as though she wasn't secure in her next relationship. I felt as though she were using me to make her new partner jealous and put her closer to him. Would this not be an example of unhealthy triangulation?

I think the most descriptive term for this is jealousy induction. If you Google this term you will get a much more targeted description of what you are describing -  why people induce jealousy.  And if this happened in your relationship, you might get a clearer picture of what was going on with him/her in this... .

Several expressive and relatively relational motives have been suggested for jealousy induction. Angry or frustrated people report intentionally creating jealousy to hurt their partner or cause emotional distress (White, 1980). Sheets et al. (1997) found that among those who had attempted to make their partners jealous, a substantial majority ‘(87%) had done so to gain their partners’ attention,’ whereas ‘less than a quarter (24%) had done so to increase their partners’ commitment, and less than a fifth (18%) had used jealousy as a mate-retention strategy’ (p. 392). Others may induce jealousy because they want to test the relationship, want more attention, more time or simply to ‘be taken out more’ (White, 1980, p. 223). Jealousy may also serve self-expansion goals. People may deliberately induce jealousy to bolster their self-esteem (White, 1980). People who feel inadequate in a relationship or are themselves jealous, suspicious, or fearful may intentionally create jealousy to gain self-esteem and confidence. People who experience these feelings may have a predisposition to be jealous (Mathes & Severa, 1981; Sharpsteen, 1995). Such individuals may even create these feelings in a partner to turn the tables. In this sense, ‘inducing jealousy may be understood, in part, as a power tactic’ (White, 1980, p. 222). This would help account for why a person’s sense of power-lessness mediates reactions to jealousy (Rotenberg, Shewchuk, & Kimberley, 2001) and why jealousy induction is associated with need for control and use of aggression in relationships (Brainerd, Hunter, Moore, & Thompson, 1996). A person involved in a romantic relationship can gain control by leading the partner to believe an attractive alternative exists. The jealous partner must respond to maintain the relationship, thereby enhancing the other’s power.

www.unc.edu/courses/2006spring/spcl/091p/016/JealousyInduction.pdf

That is a wonderful resource on jealousy... . It used to hurt me and I always wondered why, as my x would constantly use it as a weapon... . Now I can see why should used it... .

Good stuff!

MCC
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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 12:36:20 PM »

... . The jealous partner must respond to maintain the relationship, thereby enhancing the other’s power.

www.unc.edu/courses/2006spring/spcl/091p/016/JealousyInduction.pdf

Or not respond.
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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 12:41:58 PM »

... . The jealous partner must respond to maintain the relationship, thereby enhancing the other’s power.

www.unc.edu/courses/2006spring/spcl/091p/016/JealousyInduction.pdf

Or not respond.

that's the hardest part!  Then, If you don't respond, you teach them that it doesn't effect you... . however, then you are left to wonder inside your head, why in the HELL is this person trying to do this to me?  That's the part I think that hit me the hardest... . the constant mindF&^k!  What purpose did it serve?  Just downright malicious and abusive!

MCC
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 05:09:11 PM »

Why wonder?  Knowing its poor form to do this to partner and hurts is good enough reason.  It speaks to immature relationship skills.

The purpose it serves
Excerpt
‘(87%) had done so to gain their partners’ attention,’ whereas ‘less than a quarter (24%) had done so to increase their partners’ commitment, and less than a fifth (18%) had used jealousy as a mate-retention strategy’

You don't have to be BPD to pull this on a partner.  Regular insecure folks pull this too.

It becomes a choice continue to put up with this, or establish your expectations and communicate in an effort to rectify it or bow out. 



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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2013, 08:33:37 AM »

And I eventually "bowed out... . "  It literally turned into a game of who could hurt who the most!  Almost like children saying, "I know you are, but what am I?" 

I could never understand her need for it, and why it sucked me in so easily? 

I understand it takes two... . but I will give the gift of her maladaptive r/s skills to her next.  Let them decipher her signals, I am done with all of it!

MCC
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« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2016, 12:58:24 AM »

Skip,

Fascinating post and also coincidentally your post has to do with something me and my T takes about just a few days ago. She worried that this board, when I explained it, was to psychologically focused on terms and putting their partners behavior in a big one size fits all box. I also came to realize, I was a part of this, in the fact it was easier to deal with the loss by blaming a disorder and turning my relationship into a bunch psychological

terms and jargon. Sometimes it feels like we commiserate through the psychology of what happened during our relationships rather than looking at behavior as individualized and especially our own behavior. Because at the end of the day we began these relationships, we stayed, I don't know about you all but I knew mine was toxic about 3 months in and I stayed for another 16 months. Looking at the scope of myself and my behaviors needs to be addressed because I can only control me, not her, not the situation, nothing else.

I do have a question though. If disregarding many terms that have been used so much here and other places, gas lighting, crazy making, triangulation, mirroring, etc. how do we go about discussing issues which fall under these terms. Yes, many behaviors are normal in regular relationships but obviously there are things that set apart a BPD and others who do this in relationships.

If it's your feeling we are being to broad or generalized with terms, or continuums that our pwBPD feel on, severe or less severe, how should we go about discussing our issues? How do we separate what was abnormal behavior and what was not? Im not big on psychology terms and would rather just talk about the dysfunctional behavior, but if the psychology term shoe fits, you know.

I guess I'm asking if many of these aspects are normal in a relationship, how do we even know our partner had BPD? As for me mine was undiagnosed, and from what I know most are for their refusal to admit fault or they need help? I could go to a relationship message board if I just though my relationship failed, but I'm a thorough and introspective person and truly believe my ex fell along the continuum. At some point even though, everyone is different, every pwBPD's behavior does all fall along the diagnostic criteria for BPD, otherwise I hope these members wouldn't be here posting. So from that perspective how should we address ourselves, our ex and their possible disorder, and ourselves, without falling into using some of the jargon or terms from the BPD community?
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« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2016, 01:10:38 AM »

Recycling is not a BPD pathology - and if it were, many of us would be BPD because or surveys show that members her initiate reconnection as often our more than their partners.

Not counting my attempt 5 years later after two kids, my Ex broke up with me once before. I accepted it (I was kind of relieved), but was drawn back by her FOG: "if you love someone, you'd fight for them." That's immature (considering she ended it). I chose to recycle. Years later, a friend, 11 years wiser and older than me said, "you had your 'out' but you chose not to take it."

What Can We Conclude

1. If you think this is about your partner and they are a sad weak human being, remember Bowen's theory which says we mate (in general) with our emotional equals.  This doesn't mean we have the same struggles, but it does mean we operate at the same levels of emotional immaturity and unrealistic expectations.

2. That these were emotionally immature relationships in which both parties contributed.  That both parties likely had unrealistic expectations of the other that ultimately drove conflict.  

3. Most of our members partners had BPD traits at varying levels from severe to mild to temporary - the bias being on the lighter side.  In general, they were charming, desirable, and emotionally immature (part of which we found very attractive).

4. And that part of the suffering we have now feeling is because of our own rejection and abandonment anxieties.

What Can We Do With Knowledge?

Break this all down (above) so that we understand it, can learn how to heal our own wounds, and build better relationship skills.  This is why we are here.  

Analyzing BPD is important in the context of understand 1/2 of the relationship dysfunction, so that we more easily learn the other half (or 60% or 20%) and start to heal it, mature it, teach it skills for the future.

Traps To Avoid

Thinking one size fits all.  Maybe at 35,000 ft it all looks the same, but up close each of these relationships are like fingerprints - yes they all contain loops, whorls and arches - but each is unique in how these pieces come together.

Thinking you were prey.

Thinking it was all your partner, and if you get far away from the "lion", everything will be OK.

It's taken me advice from people much older and wiser than me to shift blaming the "kid" (18 years younger than me) rather more so than my Ex, who chose to seek out a r/s with a younger guy she randomly met at a club. If anything, he was the prey (to his hormones). I am almost 11 years older than her. I knew better. I thought about leaving early on, even "friend-dating" before intimacy. She warned me she was messed up. She warned me she was still not over a previous bf two year's previous. Sure, it was a dare, in a way, but I still, chose to keep it going, ignoring my gut.

Regarding:

1. It was very much a father-daughter r/s. My 11 years older friend observed it, he told me, after it was done. The thing is, I realized it long before, resented her, but more resented myself.

My T said that we weren't a good match in many ways, but in the parent-child dynamic, we were. I wasn't a victim; rather, I chose this type of r/s, even if unknowingly.

2. The later arguments, Me: "I'm not your father!" She: "I know you're not my father!" Me: "It sure feels like you're treating me as if you are!" Behind closed doors, we both filled those roles, dysfunctionally. A senior member here once said, "you can't fix your problems with one person with a completely different person; it's impossible." She and I both fell into that trap. In the end: "You abandoned me, it felt just like my father!"   The thing is, I reacted to her increasing dysregulation as I did to my mother: withdrawing. Abandonment. My Ex had a valid point. I was no longer a child, but the father of our two children. Even so, I missed, or chose to miss, the signs of her pain. I was just tired of it. I own that.

3. See 1 and 2. She was my Waif-Hermit, awaiting rescue by a White Knight. That's a fairy tale.

4. My fantasy of a family I never had was shattered. I ended up on Coping and Healing, realizing that my mother was probably BPD. And then she told me she was... .24 years after I moved out. I could say I was trying to rescue my mother in my r/s, but I was also trying to rescue myself. This never works having someone else do the work. You need to do it yourself.

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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2016, 01:49:28 AM »

I guess I'm asking if many of these aspects are normal in a relationship, how do we even know our partner had BPD? As for me mine was undiagnosed, and from what I know most are for their refusal to admit fault or they need help? I could go to a relationship message board if I just though my relationship failed, but I'm a thorough and introspective person and truly believe my ex fell along the continuum. At some point even though, everyone is different, every pwBPD's behavior does all fall along the diagnostic criteria for BPD, otherwise I hope these members wouldn't be here posting. So from that perspective how should we address ourselves, our ex and their possible disorder, and ourselves, without falling into using some of the jargon or terms from the BPD community?

Hi KarmasReal,

I know your questions were directed at Skip, but if you don't mind, I'd like to chime in, as you ask really good questions. Thank you for being thorough and thoughtful about this subject—it shows that you want to understand and take responsibility for your behavior. I have similar feelings about this topic.

I think we can:

1) Learn what the terms mean from a psychology-based standpoint, as Skip mentioned. There are links that can help, such as

BPD BEHAVIORS:Mirroring

Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle

2) We can just describe our personal experiences with our partner without using psychological terms. For example:

"In the beginning I felt that he put me on a pedestal. It felt almost as if he were worshipping me, and it felt strangely good and worrying."

"She appeared to enjoy or be interested in nearly every hobby and activity that I did. Later her tastes seemed to totally change with her new partner."

"One day, he simply stopped calling, and when I finally caught up with him, he acted like I had disappeared, not him"... .you get the picture.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think it's really important to remember that when we talk about our loved ones who have been diagnosed, who we feel may have BPD/traits, or who are simply acting in ways that are hurtful, our experiences are unique and individual. Just as each of our loved ones are. Yes, we see many uncannily similar patterns in behavior, but let's not forget that from the perspective of our partners, I'm sure they could say the exact same thing about us "non-BPDers."

Thanks for letting me share. This is an important topic.

heartandwhole

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« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2016, 09:14:01 AM »

I certainly understand the importance of having a more nuanced understanding of ideas like triangulation, and what needs they serve, and how our emotional reactions can lead to our own misinterpretation, assumptions, self-justification.

I have these questions though.

I often read here that we seek or find partners at our own level of emotional maturity. First, I note that that is likely also an over-generalization.  For at least some of us, the level of concealment and deception (no doubt well-intentioned deception, at least at the outset, but for self-serving reasons) made it so very hard to understand what we were dealing with, for some time.  In my own case, at the beginning, I told friends that I was proud of myself for finally finding and being excited about an emotionally healthy partner.  The information my ex was showing me was radically untrue, a portrait of himself that wasn't just him on his best behavior, but him as someone entirely different from who he actually is in the world.  It made it very hard to assess.  Had I understood how he functions, I would have continued to feel affection for him as a friend, and respect as a colleague, but would never have felt attraction for him, let alone pursued him or allowed him to engage me romantically.  This stuff can be hard to see.

Then also ... .how can it both be true that all these traits that we are supposed to have a more informed, nuanced understanding of, are normal or on the spectrum of normal ... .and the fact that we engaged in or persisted in these relationships means we were immature?  I have a hard time reconciling these.

For myself, I have found BPD to be a mental knot that continues to make it hard to find my own footing, to know what it real and what is not, to know what it right and healthy, and what is not.  The idea that either this is all pretty normal, or it's not but it's on us for not knowing how to react or respond in a healthy way, does not resonate for me as an accurate description of some of our experiences.

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« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2016, 11:33:25 AM »

... .my therapist talked about this just a few days ago. She worried that this board, when I explained it, was to psychologically focused on terms and putting their partners behavior in a big one size fits all box. I also came to realize, I was a part of this, in the fact it was easier to deal with the loss by blaming a disorder and turning my relationship into a bunch psychological terms and jargon. Sometimes it feels like we commiserate through the psychology of what happened during our relationships rather than looking at behavior as individualized and especially our own behavior. Because at the end of the day we began these relationships, we stayed, I don't know about you all but I knew mine was toxic about 3 months in and I stayed for another 16 months. Looking at the scope of myself and my behaviors needs to be addressed because I can only control me, not her, not the situation, nothing else.

Your therapist has given you sound advice and more importantly, you're working to wrap your head around it to help yourself heal. Bravo.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I do have a question though. If disregarding many terms that have been used so much here and other places, gas lighting, crazy making, triangulation, mirroring, etc. how do we go about discussing issues which fall under these terms. Yes, many behaviors are normal in regular relationships but obviously there are things that set apart a BPD and others who do this in relationships.

My earlier comment was ":)on't let psychology terms make you stupid", not "disregard" psychology terms. Your question is a good one.

Learning human behavior concepts and BPD traits (abnormal adaptions) is of great help and benefit to us all. For example, understanding that triangulation is a common human response to conflict or disagreements and that there are both constructive and destructive ways we "triangulate" is of immense value to know. I know for example that if I disagree with someone and then turn to a third party to get them to validate my side of the disagreement, I am triangulating destructively (I'm wanting to be right more than I want to solve the problem).  I know that if I go to that third party to get them to help me understand the other persons point and evaluate my own perspective, that I am triangulating constructively.

Learning and applying basic psychology is a good thing.  

But not understanding the concept of "triangulation" and then using it out of context or incorrectly or "stand alone" with the assumption that it describes one particular type of behavior - that's where the "makes you stupid" comes in.

A sentence like "I was triangulated" means nothing in this context. Saying "I was triangulated" to mean "my ex cheated on me", is an incorrect use of the term.  Saying "I was triangulated" to mean "I was the victim of a specific pathological behavior that the reader should know", is an incorrect use of the term. Saying "I was mirrored in a triangulation that used gas-lighting" is plain nonsense.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

It makes more sense to say what happened in plain English.

How do we separate what was abnormal behavior and what was not? Im not big on psychology terms and would rather just talk about the dysfunctional behavior, but if the psychology term shoe fits, you know.

This is a question we should ask the most and many don't ask enough. The answer is not so easy but answering it really helps us get a handle of what happened and how we fed, enabled, or contributed to the relationship problems.  

Why should we care?

Because we will fall in love again.

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« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2016, 03:07:31 PM »

For my part, I created a very loaded relationship. He was my soul mate, the man I had wanted my entire life. He was going to be the one who saw me, loved me and accepted me including my unprocessed shame. We were going to get married and live happily after. The was The One.

Now, that is a heck of a lot of pressure and expectation for any man!

When difficulties happened in the relationship, I didn't react like an emotionally healthy person. I reacted like The One was taking away his approval. I was absolutely crushed by his rejections and behaviors. I gave him the power to completely dismantle me.

As I've written, I chose to reengaged again and again, trying to return to the dream of The One. Each recycle had that pressure then... .I wanted him to return to the idolizing dreamy behaviors of the first six months. My own desire for him to return to acting like my perfect mate meant I had a low threshold for him stepping out of that role. I was either trying to enable him in order to protect myself from criticism and rages, or I was responding hurtfully like a victim myself. Either way I lacked boundaries.

Basically, we both created a dynamic where neither one of us could be real, flawed human beings. I did that to him too, without knowing it.

I can imagine from his viewpoint I went from being in love with him to, in the final months, suddenly installing boundaries that felt like rejection. The last one was when I told him he couldn't move in with me... .after me trying to get him to move in for years. It was the right choice for me but the truth is my behaviors had been dysfunctional too, and he had become accustomed to them. I changed the rules.

We both had unhealthy behaviors in the relationship. Focusing on myself, my unhealthy behaviors included enabling, blaming myself, accepting/taking victim role, being passive-aggressive instead of clear, not communicating my own anger, not creating boundaries or enforcing them, and not controlling my own anxiety and PTSD, regardless of whether he caused it or not.

I put all my happiness in the hands of one person, and that I am learning is not a healthy or wise thing to do.

There, I think I did all this self-reflection without using a single two-dollar psychological term, Skip! How did I do?

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« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2016, 03:27:30 PM »

great questions, KarmasReal. this is a challenge for all of us, i think. a great deal of us had really never heard of BPD. the vast majority of us are not psychology experts.

there is value in learning about this disorder, and how it effects us. it behooves us to understand it, the best we can, in terms of the post-mortem examination of our relationship, in terms of how we can best support others who share our experience, and in terms of what i think we all would like to see: greater awareness of a stigmatized disorder. the facts also matter in terms of our recovery. urban legends abound on the internet. if i had come to believe that i was a preyed upon sucker who fell for a series of conscious, deliberate attempts to play on my emotions, insecurities, whatever, it would have an entirely different implication for my recovery. thats the impression too many popular sites on the subject give off.

I guess I'm asking if many of these aspects are normal in a relationship, how do we even know our partner had BPD?

thing is, most of us dont. most of our exes are undiagnosed, and truth be told, most of our exes are subclinical - would not, by professional standards, meet the criteria for a diagnosis. a diagnosis isnt as important in the grand scheme of things - the traits and behaviors that we experienced and where they fit in with the various personality/impulse disorders are. learning about them helps to depersonalize those behaviors. further down the road, it helps to examine how we reacted to them. take mirroring for example: very often on the Detaching board, "mirroring" is used to describe our exes taking on our hobbies or interests or mannerisms (often as a deliberate attempt to fool us), which is quite normal in the honeymoon stage of a relationship, or friendship. "mirroring" is a legitimate psychology term - a mother will mirror her child. in turn, that child develops an identity. effective mirroring facilitates bonding. now, take mirroring in my relationship: my ex mirrored to me what i, on a very important level, so desperately longed for: all the reasons i thought people ought to love me; a very powerful draw. whats the abnormal in that equation? my need to be mirrored, my exes lack of a stable identity of her own.

I do have a question though. If disregarding many terms that have been used so much here and other places, gas lighting, crazy making, triangulation, mirroring, etc. how do we go about discussing issues which fall under these terms.

dont disregard the terms, hold them up to the light. gaslighting, for example: its a "pop psych" term for which there are maybe hundreds of different definitions on the internet. usually they boil down to your ex trying to convince you that youre crazy (often they reflect any disagreement) in order to exploit you. is that realistic? does it fit under the impulsive nature of a person with BPD? does it take into account what may drive either persons perspective?

as has already been referenced, triangulation is often referred to as a dysfunctional behavior, by our exes, foisted upon us. if we want to step off the triangle, that perspective is counter productive. that doesnt preclude others subconsciously attempting to triangulate us (it is, after all, another tool that can become a finely honed coping mechanism). yes, its beneficial for me to see when others attempt to triangulate me. its far more beneficial to see when/where/how im drawn into it and how to step off, as well as when im doing it, and whether its healthy or unhealthy.

recycling is normal. over 62% of relationships recycle. often after the first breakup, one or both parties arent done. multiple recycles tends to dip into unhealthy territory. if you hope to get it right, it helps to examine the unhealthy dynamics in your relationship, and what you can do to change/improve them. often the use on the Detaching board is something like "my ex recycled me" as if we had no say in the matter. "charm" is similar in this regard. any contact from the ex may be construed as "my ex is charming/recycling me". there are reasons that drive us and our exes to contact or recycle and typically they arent malicious even though it may appear that way to us.

the BPD behaviors board that heartandwhole linked to are mostly behaviors we are all prone to on some level. for a person with BPD, or an emotionally immature person, they are finely honed survival tools. as was stated: when we are hurting, or angry, or even just learning about the disorder, it is an easy trap to fall into: "my ex perpetrated this behavior on me, and i am a victim of it". odds are: my ex used a finely honed, maladaptive coping mechanism, and i responded with my own.

patientandclear, great questions as well. youre right, most of this is hard to see. thats the value of a support group that can challenge our thinking and provide a third party perspective. my own emotional immaturity was easier to see when i wasnt comparing myself directly to my partner (same level doesnt necessarily mean same kind, or exactly the same manifestation) but looking at the bigger picture, including my life experience and what led me to my ex, as well as my other interpersonal relationships. the good news is we are not locked in this position; we can grow and mature.

we should also separate "BPD behaviors" from "BPD traits". chronic feelings of emptiness (trait) are not "normal", though they are not unique to BPD. impulsivity and bingeing (trait) are not "normal", though they are not unique to BPD. start putting those traits and the others together, over a long, consistent period of time that effects life functioning and interpersonal relationships, and you have BPD, or at least BPD type. "painting black" (behavior) is a maladaptive coping tool that we have probably all used at one time or another, but is also a hallmark of the disorder in the context of a particular world view. thats the crux of all the behaviors and traits really. put them together, over a certain level of severity, and you have a coping style. that coping style played a role in our relationships, and its worth examining through that lens.

summary: learn about this stuff from clinical sources, avoid getting tripped up with junk psychology. examine how it applies to your ex and your relationship. examine how you responded/reacted. this will facilitate a smoother detaching process and healthier relationships in the future.
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« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2016, 04:01:48 PM »

Oh i am definately understanding he was a physical manifestation of my own arrested development - self destructive nature- i chose to look the other way too many times before trying to set boundaries - too late - i rejected myself - therefore i ultimately received rejection -- he rejects himself by not seeking help... and on and on it goes... .i actually cried in my last therapy session as I have learnt so much since meeting him I have realined myself to my path of awakening - I knew I would through meeting him -I knew that even if our powerful love did not survive i would finally be on the path to true love... .which is why I wish I could reach out and let him know I dont regret meeting him. I dont want to be bitter - but I think the advice about reaching out is sound. If he tried to recontact me - different story. But as ive said many time he would have to be firmly back on path of recovery for me to entertain rengaging xxx
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« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2016, 07:38:51 AM »

Skip,

Fascinating post and also coincidentally your post has to do with something me and my T takes about just a few days ago. She worried that this board, when I explained it, was to psychologically focused on terms and putting their partners behavior in a big one size fits all box. I also came to realize, I was a part of this, in the fact it was easier to deal with the loss by blaming a disorder and turning my relationship into a bunch psychological

terms and jargon.

Attention(click to insert in post) Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2017, 07:34:48 PM »


I think the most descriptive term for this is jealousy induction.
Very helpful, thanks.

What would be an appropriate term to describe, when a person tells you derogatory information about another, in order to manipulate you?

For example, my BPDex told me derogatory information about 2 of her flying monkeys, along the lines of STDs and so on.
This may or may not have been true.

I think the motivation was to remove any potential threat they posed to my BPDex
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2017, 07:37:20 PM »

if i had come to believe that i was a preyed upon sucker who fell for a series of conscious, deliberate attempts to play on my emotions, insecurities, whatever, it would have an entirely different implication for my recovery.

Could you elaborate on this?
And describe what your (current) beliefs are? (or point me to a post which outlines them)

I don't think I share that belief either btw - entirely anyway - but interested to hear your opinion

Thanks
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2017, 02:08:35 AM »

flying monkeys

What's a flying monkey? Seriously. I've seen this term before; I know it has something to do with the Wizard of Oz, but don't see how it applies to anything we discuss here?
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2017, 05:06:05 AM »

What's a flying monkey? Seriously. I've seen this term before; I know it has something to do with the Wizard of Oz, but don't see how it has applies to anything we discuss here?

Have you really not encountered it before or are you making a point?
I'm just surprised that being a site moderator and having 3,200 posts, that you would not have come across this term.

I think I came across the term in some of the early videos I watched from ThriveAfterAbuse (one of the more popular YouTube channels), but it seems to be a very broadly used term on the internet when discussing PDs
www.thriveafterabuse.com/release-flying-monkeys/
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2017, 07:36:28 AM »

Making a point.

The Wizzard of Oz metaphors originated with Randi Kreger back in the 1990s (on this messageboard here). The Wizzard of Oz is a movie about the powerful and the powerless. Even Randi thinks the term is ill advised and dropped it from her books. We dropped it her a decade ago.

Bowen's Triangulation, a natural human behavior, and the Karpman Drama triangle, an unhealthy version of triangulation, are clear psychology concepts that provide us with an understanding of human behavior, relationship conflict, why we are more prone to it than others, and how we can improve our "people skills" to avoid/minimize it in the future.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

"Flying monkeys" is about looking for the meaning of life in a 117 year old fairy-tale / social commentary about the collapse of the Populist Movement in the United States at the turn of the twentieth century, which was later (40 years later) made into a child's movie.

What would be an appropriate term to describe, when a person tells you derogatory information about another, in order to manipulate you? For example, my BPDex told me derogatory information about 2 of her flying monkeys, along the lines of STDs and so on.This may or may not have been true. I think the motivation was to remove any potential threat they posed to my BPDex

Lot's of overlapping ideas here and I sincerely can't make out what flying monkey means in this context. Can what you are talking about be simply described with common English such as:

"Besmirch" - an intentional attempt to spoil the reputation of a person by criticizing them severely, especially unfairly

"Character assassination" - slandering another person with the intent of destroying trust in him/her. 

"Impugn" - to cause people to doubt someone's character, qualities, or reputation by criticizing them
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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2017, 09:40:40 AM »

Excerpt
if i had come to believe that i was a preyed upon sucker who fell for a series of conscious, deliberate attempts to play on my emotions, insecurities, whatever, it would have an entirely different implication for my recovery.

Could you elaborate on this?

people with BPD are impulsive, not planners or predators. mental illness + ingenius grand schemes of systematically destroying a person (to what ends? involving them in a romantic relationship?) dont really add up.

im not a sucker or a victim. im a person who was immature, who partnered with someone who was immature, and though we loved each other the best we could, we had a messy, destructive, and immature relationship. there was no wool pulled over my eyes, no plot i fell for.

i dont mean to suggest a person with BPD is incapable of manipulating someone, we all are, and generally our motivations are the same - especially in the beginning of a relationship, we all have our little methods of "hooking" someone. these are benign and well intended actions, usually semi conscious.

the original point of this thread is that most of the clinical psychology terms we use are normal (even healthy) behavior, that we all engage in, but they are misused in a way that implies we were victims ("she mirrored me, i fell for it". then you have a host of other non clinical terms that have a thousand different meanings to everyone, to the point that they are devoid of meaning beyond determining everyone and their mothers have BPD.

i have a group of close friends. would someone that didnt like me or felt i wronged them refer to them as my flying monkeys and determine i have BPD?
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2017, 09:50:42 AM »

Making a point.

The Wizzard of Oz metaphors originated with Randi Kreger back in the 1990s (on this messageboard here). The Wizzard of Oz is a movie about the powerful and the powerless. Even Randi thinks the term is ill advised and dropped it from her books. We dropped it her a decade ago.

Bowen's Triangulation, a natural human behavior, and the Karpman Drama triangle, an unhealthy version of triangulation, are clear psychology concepts that provide us with an understanding of human behavior, relationship conflict, why we are more prone to it than others, and how we can improve our "people skills" to avoid/minimize it in the future.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

"Flying monkeys" is about looking for the meaning of life in a 117 year old fairy-tale / social commentary about the collapse of the Populist Movement in the United States at the turn of the twentieth century, which was later (40 years later) made into a child's movie.

Ok, apologies, I'm new to this forum, so hadn't realised it's a prohibited term. I think it might be an idea to add prohibited terminology to the forum filter.

I think it's going to be tricky to control the use of the terminology, unless a person ends up on BPDF first, as most of the other sites and channels seem to be propagating 'established' terminology (I wasn't aware of the etymology - it didn't actual matter to me - I just adopted it)

Is there a list of approved BPDF terminology I can refer to?


Just on the point of Triangulation - I'm a little confused, would appreciate some clarification.
In your OP, I was under the impression you were advising posters to avoid terminology such as mirroring and triangulation (you suggested a more descriptive term such as jealousy induction), but you seem to be advocating it's use here?
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2017, 10:00:55 AM »

its not a prohibited term.

i think what is advocated is: greater understanding of psychology and psychology terms in general, and where that fails, plain english Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2017, 10:31:28 AM »

This is good thread, Skip. Its title gave me a good laugh.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I definitely got caught up in the psychological terminology and tried applying it in every interaction I had with anyone. In some ways it helped to protect me, but it was very detrimental in others. I wasn't open with others nor myself. I was still on guard... .waiting for one instance of 'mirroring', 'projection' or any of the above to use as a broad judgement of both new people and my oldest friends. Pied piper therapy or so it seems. We can't hide behind these things forever.

We do need to be aware of how we are being treated, but only in general. It's more important to know ourselves and stay focused on being the people that we want to be. We are only our actions, and no amount of thinking will ever guarantee us the happy lives we desire unless we get out there and own ourselves each and every day through what we do.
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2017, 10:32:38 AM »

I definitely got caught up in the psychological terminology and tried applying it in every interaction I had with anyone.

Over the years, my observation has been that some members start labeling and patholgizing every aspect of the partners contributions to the relationship, and it is a very distorted view. Some of these things are not mental illness, they are just the dynamics of a relationship failing badly. Some of the disrespect we report is a function of us being too tolerant or too wounded (weak values, weak boundaries). Of course, some is pathology and some is abusive. It doesn't take much of either to wreck havoc in a relationship.

In your OP, I was under the impression you were advising posters to avoid terminology such as mirroring and triangulation (you suggested a more descriptive term such as jealousy induction), but you seem to be advocating it's use here?

I was encouraging members to use plain English (no jargon). And I was encouraging members to not use psychology terms that they don't have a good understanding of.

Mirroring, my first example, is not a pathology. We all do it in relationships - it is an essential part of human bonding in friendships and romantic relationships. It can become pathological, just like using a computer can become pathological, but neither are bad things in and of themselves. This is a very important concept as I've seen members of other support groups report abandoning new relationships because they saw mirroring.

Triangulation, my second example, is also not a pathology. Every member posting on this messageboard is, in fact, triangulating. Like the example above, it is a normal human behavior and it can become pathological. This is really important, too, because the only way to resolve triangulation is to understand its reciprocal affects (how all the participants play a role, including us) - otherwise it becomes a way of life for us.

Note: The term does not mean a "love triangle" (a common misuse).

This really isn't a semantics or linguistic issue. It's a healing philosophy.

Most everyone here on detaching is coming off of an extended period of dysfunctional behavior on both sides of the relationship and with their own clinical depression (and its characteristic mental distortions). Because of this, Detaching members are very vulnerable to distorted explanations for what they experienced and why they feel the way they do. Distorted explanations only makes matters worse in the long run as distorted explanations tend to deepen the woundedness, create a level a paranoia, confusion, and withdrawal with respect to future relationship partners, and obscure the bad habits that we have developed in our lifetime which, in many cases, are resolvable - but only if we see them and set our mind to see them and resolve them.

Hope this helps.
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2017, 12:22:01 PM »

I get the general gist of the thread - less jargon, more descriptive language-thats sufficient, thanks
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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2017, 01:05:53 PM »

less jargon, more descriptive language

That is the point.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2017, 04:22:31 PM »

Great post, thank you.

Thank you for reminding us that 'mirroring' (not that I think I was subject to a lot of that, the times I was it was so blatant it felt off, a bit like an overenthusiastic puppy it was that obvious) and idealisation are to some degree, the beginning of many a romantic relationship. And as you say, the bonding/glue that then makes us decide to carry on.

I think it is way too easy to deride ourselves, beat ourselves up and feel hoodwinked... .in darker moments to think, how could I have been so stupid? Or even, so stupid as to think someone loved me THAT much?

The truth is, they actually did love us THAT much to begin with (and probably many still do, but the parameters and conditions have shifted) ... .the feelings were very much real. And we are simply human beings who gave our hearts, completely.
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