Interesting observation on being painted black

[Oliolioxenfree]

I was discussing the idea of being painted black today with a therapist friend who also has had intimate dealings with someone suffering from BPD.  We were talking and it was proposed that, when you are painted black, they will reengage you if they can benefit from it emotionally ie,  making their new replacement or someone else suffer in some way - via triangulation, or if they can get something from you.   The interesting part that was mentioned was that from my friends observations with those suffering from BPD she found that many many times you are not painted white unless you ENGAGE them.    However,  if not they perceive it as abandonment and you remain painted black.

I found this to be an interesting observation since my friend is a therapist who is well acquainted with BPD traits

I have not experienced this (I am painted jet black haha) but I was wondering if this rang true for anyone else? Id be intersted in hearing some stories.

[Fenghuang]

True in my case. Mutually agreed upon temporary separation during what I can only define as a period of marriage insanity led to abandonment trigger, being painted black, then divorce.

No going back and I have to say after a few years I am enjoying life without having to worry about b&w thinking.

Time has also given me the benefit of reflection and I have accepted and am dealing with my own shortcomings.

I can only hope that my undiagnosed x is making similar gains.

[alliance]

I'm not sure I am following your train of thought on the black and white thing. And, I have a bit of trouble on a simplistic black and white thing in something so complex.

For example, when we meet someone new and are in the infatuation stage where they are the best thing since sliced bread, you could say we are painted white. This is a normal thing. Infatuation for a person with disordered thinking and/or emotional wounds is more complicated.

At some point, disordered or not, we realize the other person isn't who or what we thought in the ways we wanted or expected. To me, that is a grey area. It is in this grey area that disordered thinking becomes more of an issue... .I think.

It is in the grey area that disordered thinking, the behaviors it creates, and the interplay of our respective personal issues dynamic get uglier and uglier over time as we (both) try to find a way back to the infatuation stage.

This is the stage where people in non disordered relationships decide to just calls it quits and move on. It just isn't working. No harm, no foul, no over investment in a fantasy, no ugly scenes, no blaming... .it just didn't work.

In disordered relationships, this is where the roller coaster kicks in i.e. varying and ever changing shades of grey as each tries to cope with knowing it wont work but still having hope that it might. With a complex dynamic and limited skills, it becomes more and more dysfunctional. Here, our respective attachment/detachment issues lead to a protracted letting go process.

Being painted black, to me, is the final realization, albeit a long time coming, that it is over. There might be a few leftover games just to be sure. But, overall, both parties know it is over.

That make sense?

[EdR]

I was discussing the idea of being painted black today with a therapist friend who also has had intimate dealings with someone suffering from BPD.  We were talking and it was proposed that, when you are painted black, they will reengage you if they can benefit from it emotionally ie,  making their new replacement or someone else suffer in some way - via triangulation, or if they can get something from you.   The interesting part that was mentioned was that from my friends observations with those suffering from BPD she found that many many times you are not painted white unless you ENGAGE them.    However,  if not they perceive it as abandonment and you remain painted black.

I found this to be an interesting observation since my friend is a therapist who is well acquainted with BPD traits

I have not experienced this (I am painted jet black haha) but I was wondering if this rang true for anyone else? Id be intersted in hearing some stories.

Could you please elaborate? Engaging in what way? Defensive, or... .?

Often you won't know what they are saying behind your back, so how could you engage then? 

[Oliolioxenfree]

I was discussing the idea of being painted black today with a therapist friend who also has had intimate dealings with someone suffering from BPD.  We were talking and it was proposed that, when you are painted black, they will reengage you if they can benefit from it emotionally ie,  making their new replacement or someone else suffer in some way - via triangulation, or if they can get something from you.   The interesting part that was mentioned was that from my friends observations with those suffering from BPD she found that many many times you are not painted white unless you ENGAGE them.    However,  if not they perceive it as abandonment and you remain painted black.

I found this to be an interesting observation since my friend is a therapist who is well acquainted with BPD traits

I have not experienced this (I am painted jet black haha) but I was wondering if this rang true for anyone else? Id be intersted in hearing some stories.

Could you please elaborate? Engaging in what way? Defensive, or... .?

Often you won't know what they are saying behind your back, so how could you engage then? 

Hi EdR,

By engage I was mostly referring to accepting or acknowledging their attempts to contact you or get your attention.  I,e them reaching out via email, text, phone calls, fb etc, and by responding in some way that lets them know you are reacting or accepting to their efforts to get your attention.

[UmbrellaBoy]

I think I know what you mean!

There were two distinct patterns with my ex.

The first is where I would, in moments where I was tired putting up with the waffling crap, cut him off. Abandonment fears triggered, he'd chase me down frantically trying to prevent it.

But then when he'd devalue me and make a move to end things himself, out of engulfment fears I think (or on account of abandonment fears about the other guy in the triangle)... .then I always had to be the one to re approach him. And suddenly, when I did, when I initiated and engaged, I was idealized again.

I don't know what would have happened if I had waited longer. I guess that's what I'm trying now at three months no contact. Maybe if I wait/had waited six months, he'd break down and come back on his own.

But at least during our last reconciliation after dumping me, I had to be the one to reach out to him, to engage him, and suddenly he was idealizing me again.

I guess there are two reasons this could be. The first is that perhaps after erratically dumping you, they feel so much shame it's hard to come crawling back again and again after changing their minds so many times, they feel foolish. They might also fear that doing that gives you all the power (since it was their fault things were ruined and now they want it back... .that gives you all the power to make demands) and that would mean engulfment.

The other reason is that maybe by reengaging even after all the crap, they idealize you as super-forgiving and loyal and so a sort of savior again.

This puts us in quite the bind though as it leaves us with the tantalizing thought that maybe, even though they dumped us, they're just waiting for us to call. Maybe if we did it would activate this dynamic. Or maybe we'd just get rejected again. So it's unfair to expect us to take that risk... .

[Findingmysong723]

I only engaged, well in way because he was at the Animal Shelter and I saw him up there. I tried to ignore him and walk away with the dog, but he walked out too fast for me to run away. I wasn't friendly but not totally rude, and answered his pleasantries with a lot of "fines." Told him where I was still working, which I wish I had left that a mystery but oh well. However, in reality I wish I did have another job by now but oh well. Also, he asked me about Dexter, a show we both watched two Seasons of when we were together, mentioned that he hadn't seen the last Season because he didn't have me (I have Showtime he doesn't) to use to watch it, a annoying joke he would say... still not liking it.

However the contact before us meeting at the Animal Shelter was a passive aggressively  text saying "I guess this isn't Findingmysong phone # but if it is, I would hope that you would be more mature to ignore me. That's f***kin childish and I'm happy not to people like that in my life!" This text came after I ignored his "How are you text," I had told him when we were breaking up that I couldn't be friends with him this time. During the conversation he asked me if I thought my feelings would change in a few weeks or months I would change my mind. I said "No," that being friends didn't work last time. I told him this after he asked me to go out to eat with him after we just broke up, was like what? Of course he said he didn't want to send any mixed messages and that we would be going out to eat as friends.   However, I admit last time I wasn't over him and the not being friends didn't last very long, but this time it did!

So, I wonder if I'm been painted more of a lighter black hmm?

[Oliolioxenfree]

I think I know what you mean!

There were two distinct patterns with my ex.

The first is where I would, in moments where I was tired putting up with the waffling crap, cut him off. Abandonment fears triggered, he'd chase me down frantically trying to prevent it.

But then when he'd devalue me and make a move to end things himself, out of engulfment fears I think (or on account of abandonment fears about the other guy in the triangle)... .then I always had to be the one to re approach him. And suddenly, when I did, when I initiated and engaged, I was idealized again.

I don't know what would have happened if I had waited longer. I guess that's what I'm trying now at three months no contact. Maybe if I wait/had waited six months, he'd break down and come back on his own.

But at least during our last reconciliation after dumping me, I had to be the one to reach out to him, to engage him, and suddenly he was idealizing me again.

I guess there are two reasons this could be. The first is that perhaps after erratically dumping you, they feel so much shame it's hard to come crawling back again and again after changing their minds so many times, they feel foolish. They might also fear that doing that gives you all the power (since it was their fault things were ruined and now they want it back... .that gives you all the power to make demands) and that would mean engulfment.

The other reason is that maybe by reengaging even after all the crap, they idealize you as super-forgiving and loyal and so a sort of savior again.

This puts us in quite the bind though as it leaves us with the tantalizing thought that maybe, even though they dumped us, they're just waiting for us to call. Maybe if we did it would activate this dynamic. Or maybe we'd just get rejected again. So it's unfair to expect us to take that risk... .

Its definitely an interesting concept to think about.  I guess well only know when they attempt to reengage and their reactions after we either do or do not show that we are receptive.

[Oliolioxenfree]

I only engaged, well in way because he was at the Animal Shelter and I saw him up there. I tried to ignore him and walk away with the dog, but he walked out too fast for me to run away. I wasn't friendly but not totally rude, and answered his pleasantries with a lot of "fines." Told him where I was still working, which I wish I had left that a mystery but oh well. However, in reality I wish I did have another job by now but oh well. Also, he asked me about Dexter, a show we both watched two Seasons of when we were together, mentioned that he hadn't seen the last Season because he didn't have me (I have Showtime he doesn't) to use to watch it, a annoying joke he would say... still not liking it.

However the contact before us meeting at the Animal Shelter was a passive aggressively  text saying "I guess this isn't Findingmysong phone # but if it is, I would hope that you would be more mature to ignore me. That's f***kin childish and I'm happy not to people like that in my life!" This text came after I ignored his "How are you text," I had told him when we were breaking up that I couldn't be friends with him this time. During the conversation he asked me if I thought my feelings would change in a few weeks or months I would change my mind. I said "No," that being friends didn't work last time. I told him this after he asked me to go out to eat with him after we just broke up, was like what? Of course he said he didn't want to send any mixed messages and that we would be going out to eat as friends.   However, I admit last time I wasn't over him and the not being friends didn't last very long, but this time it did!

So, I wonder if I'm been painted more of a lighter black hmm?

From my own observations, it seems that even a slight amount of engagement will have them sometimes painting you a lighter shade of black... maybe a dark gray.   Maybe its because you are soothing their fear of perceived total abandonment if you respond in some way even if its negative.  I guess the WORST thing you can do to them is never engage or respond because then in their eyes they are abandoned.  In that situation you may remain painted black for good.  Man its so confusing!

[Findingmysong723]

Oliolioxenfree,

Thanks for replying. Yea, I was enjoying not seeing him, but I guess knowing that I saw him and I'm okay is a good feeling too. I guess the part about engaging even a little, is the feeling that he thinks that I'm okay with him and what he did.

I mean I wasn't going to start spouting all the hurt he caused me, but I hope he doesn't think we are cool. However, he might be in a relationship and occupied, but it doesn't really matter I won't be engaging with him at all. The only place that he can try to engage me is at the Animal Shelter/Adoption Days, but hasn't been going on the days I go. The day I saw him was a fluke because he had found a stray cat and brought him to the Shelter on a day he had off from work and I just happened to decide to walk dogs on that day. I also been on this ride before, so if he does engage I'll be ready for it and will know how to handle it!

[Waifed]

I think being painted black and a pwBPD's future actions depend on several factors.  My "P" is convinced that they usually try to contact you again. I don't believe that is the case. I think pwBPD are human and each one is different. Some have too much pride or just don't like you anymore. I also think their relationship status has a lot to do with it. Also, if a non remarries and they know you won't cheat they won't ever contact you. I do not ever expect to hear from my ex again because I know she is very stubborn and she also knows that I will not re engage with her.

[peas]

Some have too much pride or just don't like you anymore.

This is how I perceive my ex feels about me. I do not anticipate any contact from him and that is what I still struggle with four months NC and five months broken up. It's on me to get over it and I'm finding it difficult. 

[UnLuckyLady]

I'm right there with you Peas... .Your story sounds nearly identical to mine. Kids involved , complete dumping with NO contact after.  I think he hates my guts... .and if anybody else on the planet hated my guts I really wouldn't give a crap. But i have the hardest time accepting the man I love most in this world absolutely detests me.

[EdR]

Thank you for your clarification!   I must admit though, doubt and confusion enters my mind again after reading this thread.

She gave me the Silent Treatment for no reason. She has done this on a regular basis, with a maximum of 6 months. It is killing me every single time.

She never answered any of my nice 'why?', 'please, explain' questions. She just choose her moment and then pretended like nothing happened. And we could go along with the show.

It has now been 2 months. I did the same thing. Also tried more light-hearted funny messages. Nothing helped. Her silence now actually scares me.

I don't even know if I'm being painted black, but do you guys think I could break this silence by engaging? What is engaging in this particular case? Should I visit her, go to her work-place, call her?

Her silence scares me, and I truly fear any of the above might trigger a very weird reaction. I have learned to expect the unexpected... So for me, visiting, calling would feel like a privacy issue and is actually out of the question. Am I wrong? Is this a weird thought?

It really is tempting to try and break the silence. Get some sort of closure. If this could help, I would try. But what is it exactly that I should try and do?

[Waifed]

Ed

If she doesn't want to talk to you why bother?  Being painted black is a good thing. You should want to be left alone. You are just opening yourself to more pain and suffering. Stay NC and focus on yourself. Focus on moving on without her. She is mentally ill if she is a pwBPD. You will never have a healthy relationship with her, EVER. You must take care of yourself one day at a time. If is a painful process and it hurts like Hell, but you can do it.

I think many of us don't like the idea of being painted black because of our codependency traits. We are used to putting others before ourselves and when they don't care it hurts our egos. We hold out hope that they will "like" us again even if we have decided to move on. I think if we can get past caring whether we are painted black or not, then we are one step closer to freedom from this mental illness.

Hang in there Ed.

[EdR]

Ed

If she doesn't want to talk to you why bother?  Being painted black is a good thing. You should want to be left alone. You are just opening yourself to more pain and suffering. Stay NC and focus on yourself. Focus on moving on without her. She is mentally ill if she is a pwBPD. You will never have a healthy relationship with her, EVER. You must take care of yourself one day at a time. If is a painful process and it hurts like Hell, but you can do it.

I think many of us don't like the idea of being painted black because of our codependency traits. We are used to putting others before ourselves and when they don't care it hurts our egos. We hold out hope that they will "like" us again even if we have decided to move on. I think if we can get past caring whether we are painted black or not, then we are one step closer to freedom from this mental illness.

Hang in there Ed.

Thank you.    I just wish she would have told me something like: "I don't want to talk to you anymore". I even explicitly asked her to say something like that if she felt that way.

She refuses though... .

And that's what makes it hard. Why won't she be clear.

[alliance]

Thank you.    I just wish she would have told me something like: "I don't want to talk to you anymore". I even explicitly asked her to say something like that if she felt that way.

She refuses though... .

And that's what makes it hard. Why won't she be clear.

I feel for you Ed. But, being vague is something BPD do well.

I'm not sure of all the ins and outs of it. Sometimes they don't know what they feel or think, so they are vague or do the distancing thing.

Sometimes, they seem to refuse to be "definitive" in the same way you or I might be, cuz they might need to recycle you down the road. Being vague, gives them the opportunity to come back.

Not answering us, being vague, is all part of the lack of closure that makes this more difficult than it should be. It makes us wonder and ruminate and try to figure out what we did wrong etc.

Asking her to explain, reengaging her will, unfortunately, not get you the answers you might want/need. It may provoke an angry/unexpected reaction. From experience, it is an invitation to disaster.

Detaching is very difficult. But, it is very necessary. I recommend stay nc, work on yourself, don't worry bout her - she is a survivor.

[peas]

Thank you.  smiley  I just wish she would have told me something like: "I don't want to talk to you anymore". I even explicitly asked her to say something like that if she felt that way.

She refuses though... .

And that's what makes it hard. Why won't she be clear.

Mine was loud and clear and it hurts a lot. His last text to me included these words, after I was trying to contact him to make sense of our hostile breakup:

"You really need to go away. Your (sic) being psycho. You have a psycho issue. F*ck off. You suck. Get it ___hole. Leave me alone."

[EdR]

Thank you alliance for your kind words! :-)

You're spot on... I think her continuing silence could mean two things:

-) she can't face the shame or hurt, because she knows she's hurting me with it; so silence is the easy way out (kind of a paradox, but still possible)

-) she doesn't want to end it completely. In case she needs me for something... well... .anything.

I think she's just being 'chicken'. So it's a combination of the above. She can't face her problems. But in the meantime this lack of closure is extremely hard for me. I have decided not to contact her anymore. She has done enough damage.

Peas... well I kinda wished that would have happened in my case. :-P  Beats the silence imo. I saw your other thread, and I'll post a reply in a minute there.  

[isseeu]

EdR  you and I are in exactly the same situation, and I've reached the same two conclusions about why he's being silent.  I'm entering the fifth month of this.  I would rather have a final "leave me the bleep alone" than this... .and I've told him that.  I believe there is a power play going on-and I'm not a good game player so I continued to send little kind loving messages, a photo of friends here and there... .nothing.  I stopped doing that about three weeks ago. 

It does get better... .I care less and less.  Closure of some kind would be wonderful, but it's not going to happen with his help I'm afraid.     

Best of luck to you... .I know exactly what you're going through.

[willbegood]

Absolutely! I have been blocked from everything but email. She claims she can't block my emails even after I gave her detailed instruction on how to.

I've done it many times. I can email but I have to be very nice. Depending on what she's up to will depend on how she responds. Eventually she will put the current guy on hold as long as I'm nice and say what she wants to hear.

I believe the same thing went on with the guy before me. He could contact her and eventually she'd cause problems with me.

IME, after some time my ex would love for her exs to re-engage her. But she is very guarded at first. Once some trust was built up, she'd figure out a way to cause problems with whoever she's with at the time.

[Love Is Not Enough]

We were talking and it was proposed that, when you are painted black, they will reengage you if they can benefit from it emotionally ie,  making their new replacement or someone else suffer in some way - via triangulation, or if they can get something from you.

This is absolutely true. Last year I went out of town on business and to visit a college friend that lived in the area I was traveling to. My uBPDgf went to her nearby hometown under the guise of a family visit. I guess she was upset with me for abandoning her so she went to her ex's business to visit him. This was after they had been broken up, and supposedly not seen him, for over 6 years. The only plausible explanation I have for this is that she either wanted to rub her new relationship with me in his face or to punish me via triangulation. Whenever she talked about her ex with me she painted him black, although I could always see something in her eyes that said otherwise. Either way she has made me suffer plenty. The one year anniversary of her innocent little visit is coming up on December 1st and it has been driving me crazy. I wish I could just let it go, but I still want to bring it back to get her to tell me why the hell she did it. Although logically I know I will never get an answer. I doubt she even understands why she did it.

[Ironmanrises]

The interesting part that was mentioned was that from my friends observations with those suffering from BPD she found that many many times you are not painted white unless you ENGAGE them.  

This happened to me too and then I was painted black at the end, again.

[maxen]

Some have too much pride or just don't like you anymore.

This is how I perceive my ex feels about me. I do not anticipate any contact from him and that is what I still struggle with four months NC and five months broken up. It's on me to get over it and I'm finding it difficult. 

my situation also. it is very very hard to get over.