Affair w/married longtime friend w/BPD

[joekro]

I'm so glad this resource exists. Back in Nov, the affair I was involved in w/my married BPD friend was discovered by her better half and we are now over. I think. Backstory... . back in the early nineties, I met a girl whom I became, well, best friends with. She was/is a stunning woman and she had many "callers". Our early relationship developed into something that I can't compare anything to. I would play my guitar for her and she would almost be in tears. She, would write me poetry that would cause me to weep as well. She was my biggest fan and I was hers. We were so comfortable together that we would even sleep in the same bed without sexual contact, just warm cuddling in the morning as we would discuss our dreams. It was and still is the most perfect time in my life. A real connection with another human.

I moved away and all contact with her was lost. I thought about her frequently and was always curious how things were in her life( I was unaware of her condition until a few weeks into the affair). 18yrs after losing contact, I decide I will track her down (about a year ago) and I do. I find her married and a mother. I overlook the obvious inappropriate implications of contacting a married woman and give her a shout. BANG! we are back in our twenties and the excitement of hearing her voice and her hearing mine was otherwordly. Needless to say, the cycle began the very next day and soon she was telling me she loved me, and I , in return tell her the same. I don't think we were talking about the same kind of love though. I loved her in a different, intellectual, mutual respect level. A love for someones well being and success, not romance. Based on what I've read about BPD, she cannot love in the same way as a healthier mind can, if at all.

I've known about the abuse she suffered as a child and early in the affair she informed me of her diagnosis. My heart sank. My best friend is troubled! I will save her! The daily calls and countless texts from her drew me in like a bee to a flower. This satisfied my "superman" issues like nothing else before. The friend status was intact throughout the whole affair, but we definately took many steps beyond that line in the sand and had quite a steamy romance.

After reading all of the available info on the subject of BPD and reading stories about BPD relationships, I have yet to find a similar situation to mine... . I know what has happened and the hows and whys, but what happens next? She has called several times since the discovery of the affair and apologizes endlessly, tells me she still loves me.  She also seems committed to make her marriage work. I don't want my friend to join the divorce club. I do love her, all of her. Her condition does NOT bother me. I have known her too long to turn my back on her because she is troubled.  I would appreciate any input, criticism, advice that anyone may have about how I should handle what is coming, or not coming.

[santa]

Married women are nothing but trouble, man. I'm sure she's special and all, but there's no way this will end well for anyone. If I were you, I'd try to forget about her.

[fromheeltoheal]

My ex found me on Facebook again after 25 years and off to the races we went again.  Silly me in hindsight, but she's a hell of a buzz.  So I get it.

First thing is a relationship with a married woman won't end well, and of course you now have less reason to trust her in any relationship you might create with her in the future, because she's cheating on her husband now.  If she did decide she wants to be with you, you should stop seeing each other, she should divorce her husband, and then you could start a more honest relationship.

And then there's the BPD thing.  You know this gal well, so it's up to you to decide if you want to take that ride, and there are countless stories here and in my real life of borderlines who were who they needed to be until the wedding, and then showed up as who they really are with BPD traits in full bloom.  I'm sure you also realize it's common for borderlines to maintain multiple relationships, emotional or more, with suitors to soothe there ever-present fear of abandonment.  Boils down to what do you want?  And are you going to do the shadowy affair thing, or are you going to require her to be more accountable to you and her husband?  Maybe it's OK to you to have a relationship with her on any level, and it doesn't matter that she's married to someone else?

[joekro]

See, that's the thing, I'm not pining over "us" being over and from the start it was understood that we would end it at some point in time. We lost that chance when we where caught. What my concern is that she will resent her husband because "we" weren't the ones to end it on our terms. I'm not looking for a dreamy, endless romance with her, I know her condition too well to believe I'm someone special... . or am I? We go so far back and shared so many experiences as best friends, will this matter?

The friend in me wants to do everything I can to assure her marriage survives, the man in me who fell in love with her wants the same. In actuality, its completely out of my hands. . I feel there is no f'ing way I could ever forget or walk away from her, especially now that I know why she is the way she is because of her BPD. I have not and will not contact her for any reason whatsoever. I am, however, available to her for anything.

Thank you for listening and responding.

[Happy1]

Jocro, take of what's best for YOUR future not hers. She's done fine without you all of these years. She'll survive.

You on the other hand likely will get burned big time one of two ways. She'll either leave you heartbroken or you'll get deeper involved and then experience all of her BPD traits and have to deal with all that comes with it.

Look at it like, years ago, you won a little bit from a familiar slot machine and it felt good. You've since been able to do without that fix, but for whatever reason were drawn to the chance to gamble again. Once again, you got a bit of a payoff by having this affair. So, you're a winner, right? Cut your losses and don't go for another round. Let this r/s die and along with it, your feelings to protect/save/rescue. This way you'll be able to preserve your feelings of truly caring about her, without having to show it. It's great you care about her and all, but let her do the heavy lifting in her life, you'll both be better off.

[fromheeltoheal]

See, that's the thing, I'm not pining over "us" being over and from the start it was understood that we would end it at some point in time. We lost that chance when we where caught. What my concern is that she will resent her husband because "we" weren't the ones to end it on our terms. I'm not looking for a dreamy, endless romance with her, I know her condition too well to believe I'm someone special... . or am I? We go so far back and shared so many experiences as best friends, will this matter?

The friend in me wants to do everything I can to assure her marriage survives, the man in me who fell in love with her wants the same. In actuality, its completely out of my hands. . I feel there is no f'ing way I could ever forget or walk away from her, especially now that I know why she is the way she is because of her BPD. I have not and will not contact her for any reason whatsoever. I am, however, available to her for anything.

Thank you for listening and responding.

Honestly that sounds attractive to me too; be there for her when she wants, enjoy the buzz, send her back to her life, although I couldn't keep the necessary emotional distance from her without wanting more, but the thought of spending limited time with her so that she stayed untriggered for it does sound good, a fantasy, but good.  It's too late for us though; she did get triggered a lot, and I was abused emotionally, psychologically and physically, and although there's that side of me that might still respond to the buzz that is her, what's happened is completely unacceptable, and I would be disrespecting myself to have anything to do with her, especially without any accountability on her part and lots of blame.

She told me when we were together that there were 'about' 10 guys who 'just showed up' randomly, former conquests and flings, looking for more.  It was probably a lie, or at minimum a stretch of the truth, to manipulate me and increase her apparent value in her head, but I've also learned that a 'good guy' like me who loved her unconditionally could not meet all of the needs of a borderline; she needed 'bad boys' who didn't care about her and treated her badly as well, to fulfill some need buried in her psyche.  She was a hell of a buzz, an addiction, but nothing to get long term sustenance from.

[musicfan42]

Jocro, I'd like to hear about your thoughts and feelings.

What was going on in your life that you felt that you had to track down this person? Were you bored/dissatisfied with your life at that point? Were you married/dating anyone or were you single?

There's certain parts of your narrative that just doesn't ring true to me. You say that you didn't want your BPD ex to get divorced... really?  If you loved her so much, then why would you want her being with her husband? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And then you say that you loved her on an intellectual level yet you write about how she wrote you poetry and she played the guitar. I'm creative too so I can appreciate the connection that there can be between creative people however there needs to be more in a relationship than just that. I remember years ago, I dated this guy who wanted to be a writer. He was very intelligent... creative, well-read... we had a lot of things in common. But he just didn't treat me very well. What good was his intelligence when he wasn't being honest and straight-forward with me?

I wonder whether your BPD ex was perhaps toying with your affections, leading you. Surely that's an unhealthy relationship to be in?  You mention how she says she wants to work on her marriage yet she's saying that she still loves you. Isn't that part of the push-pull dynamic that is part of BPD?

You also write about how you could sleep in the bed without sexual contact and cuddle in the morning. And how you could discuss your dreams with each other. I'd just consider those things part of a healthy relationship... not even that intimate. You write about how it was "a real connection with another human" which makes me wonder whether you have issues connecting with people and in particular women?

[joekro]

I appreciate the points presented by everyone, but I must make something clear, I'm not looking for a romantic r/s with her. It was understood from the start that we would end the affair ourselves at some point, and we were close (Ironically, we had decided to end it after one more rendevous, as I mentioned earlier we lost that opportunity). I'm paranoid a divorce is imminent.

She loves her husband, and the entire time we were together we battled the guilt of what we were doing, which is why we knew we had to end it, and soon. I swear though, leaving her in the lurch is not an option. If God sends her my way because her marriage failed, then so be it. I will become an authority on BPD and maybe break through and maybe (stress maybe) have a BPD success story.

musicfan, to address your perspective... . Your first question(s) is easy. I joined facebook in 09 but was not an avid user until about a year ago, but my friends kept sending me "friend" suggestions and before you know it I was looking up everyone I knew and jumped on the bandwagon. So naturally I looked her up, acquired her phone number and called rather then send a request because I wanted to surprise her, and also thought it a safer method then facebooking, I really didn't want to cause any unrest, just reunite with a dear old friend.

I don't want to see her divorce because I think she is where she needs to be. From early on, decades ago, we always put the others interests above our own, we really are very close. My comment about no sexual contact in our earlier r/s was made to highlight our simple interest in each others presence without the tension of sex. For me, and for her I think, it was remarkable that neither of us were really interested in anything physical, even though we were both "players" so to speak. It's like we could take a break from the game.

As far as her toying with my emotions... . perhaps. I'm a tough nut to crack though  

I hope I don't sound agro with my responses, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that my heart is not at stake here, her marriage is.

[joekro]

p.s. I'm the one who played guitar

[joekro]

One last thing, when she told me of her condition she wanted me to learn as much as I could about BPD and she is very aware that she has this serious problem. She is in therapy and on meds. She is also the one who suggested I join this chat service.

[musicfan42]

Yeah, I know that you're the one who played guitar. That was just a typo!

[joekro]

Geez, I forgot an important element, since late Nov (discovery date) she has called several times and at first it was about once a week. She then managed to go 17 days without calling and it has been 9 days since her last call. Yes, I keep count and I'm sure she does too. I hope that slowly but surely, the dust will settle and she will live happily ever after with her dream guy... . whomever that may be.

[fromheeltoheal]

I don't get it man.  You're counting days and posting on a Leaving board.  Is this selfless love or denial?

[Inside]

Jocro,

I’d say ‘they’re all right,’ and likely have little to add.  If nothing else, I’m convinced beyond any doubt that pwBPD pick exceptional victims

So, with no better advice than what I’ve read till now …something instantly stuck me about your opening post.  You are a song writer…  I love to write, but your descriptions were boiled down to lyrics.  So - get your guitar and put them to use! 

Old enough to be a fan of The Cars, Ric Ocasek’s lyrics now sound to me as if he were writing to and about a pwBPD … no wonder few women liked the group… a lot of angry stuff beautifully crafted into his songs.  Makes me wonder which and how many other songs were inspired by the same twisted emotions of folks like us.

Follow the advice the others, then turn those feelings into music…  and who knows, money and fame  

[joekro]

I'm sorry but things keep popping into my head that I want to share. As long as I have known her I have never seen her "evil" side, never. The only symptoms she showed were an occasional dillusional episode. One in particular I would like to share with you. A few months ago she called late at night and was in another world, talking gibberish and making no sense at all, she then fell asleep with the phone next to her mouth. For 1 1/2 hrs I listened to her breathe (with a periodic sigh or whimper) and when she woke up she immediately called out my name, when I answered, she began to cry. She was genuinely overwhelmed that someone would more or less stand guard over her while she slept. I didn't do it for admiration or to score points, I did it because her well being is of primary importance to me. I don't want to be painted black, but if thats what she needs to do for her own health, then I will supply the brush. I honestly believe though she is tired of being sick and is going to make a break to the light. With or without me. I just want to see her well. Perhaps I should be posting on the "staying" section, it sounds to me like I have no plans on "detaching" any farther than I already have. Thank you all for your insight and opinions.

[joekro]

Oh yeah, I know The Cars, saw them back in the eighties in DC. Benjamin Orr was really behind most of the early stuff. Funny, when I hear ":)rive", guess who now comes to mind. I'm more of an instrumentalist, I really prefer to allow the listener to decide what its about for them. All of my favorite musicians are instrumentalists... . Jeff Beck, Vangelis, Ozric Tentacles, etc... . You are welcome to poach whatever I said that you think would make good lyrics and put them to music. Thank you for the compliment.

[Lady31]

Jocro,

Here is a little dose of reality - if you were so "concerned" about her husband or her marriage or the demise of it - you wouldn't have been screwing another man's wife.  OR putting yourself in an inappropriate relationship (INCLUDING friendship) with another man's wife.

If this is truly about a love you have for her - then you would stop this right now and remove yourself from her and her husband's lives.  Immediately and completely.

Sorry - Not trying to sound judgmental here - but what is right is right.  Sometimes there really IS a definite right and wrong.

I don't see how you are even remotely confused over what is right in this situation and whether or not you should TOTALLY BOOT YOURSELF OUT as you do not belong in any form in her life. 

That is her husband - and he is the one she should have this type of relationship with - not you.

Very clear from my perspective what the answer is.  You can take that or leave it or argue it if you want.  Frankly - I'm not God and the one who lays out whether this relationship you had and may continue to have with this woman is wrong - He's the one that defines that so I guess you would have to argue the point with him if it is disliked.

However - I guarantee you if it was YOUR wife you would have a totally different pair of glasses on.

You don't have any right to this woman.  She is not to be something special in your life.  She is in a covenant with her husband - and you are mixing a whole lot of disaster over your life, her life, her husband's life and her children's lives with the decisions you are making.

You do not belong there.  Repent (which means to turn around in the complete opposite direction/180) and remove yourself and go on with your life.

The best you can do at this point without causing more damage to all of the people involved now with the decision you two made is to be completely removed and ask God to help them now (not you "helping" in the wake of you two's destruction.

I'm sure her husband and children are hurting much more than the two of you put together.  Do the right thing and bow out.

[mini_vanilli]

"If God sends her my way because her marriage failed, then so be it."

Not sure which God you are referring to... . is it the one she made a marriage vow in front of? Exactly what role you think he would play in "sending her you way" would be?

"Ive never seen her "evil" side, never"

really? so blatantly breaking her vow of marriage with you is considered a "good" side of her? worse yet stringing you along while married to another man... . hmmm

You are destroying peoples lives including your own kind sir. please wake up and take another look. have you once stopped to think of the emotional devastation you have brought into her husbands life?

[KE151]

Jocro,

Lots of good but painful observations being made here.

We've all been there, bound under the BPD spell. It distracts us from reality and confuses some very basic aspects of our lives: right/wrong, need/want, love/lust, truth/lie.

As the "non" in this affair, you are accountable for a lot. Making the right decisions, as she is not capable of that.

God won't make any decisions for you and you cannot take cover behind His back in this.

Good luck!

[joekro]

I am humbled by these last posts... . You're right, the whole time I/we marginalized innocent people and made myself out to be some kind of hero. I have removed myself from the romantic part of this mess, now I suppose I should take our friendship and lock it away. When she calls, I will try with every cell in my body to tell her not to ever again. And if I can muster the courage I will even change my number. Damn, this is going to be difficult.

[laelle]

Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for someone is to let them go.

[happylogist]

Jocro,

This is the situation when the true friendship or love implies leaving her alone. You wrote that she loved her husband, it seemed to me that the future with her always assumed her staying with her husband and not you, you even write that you did no and do not want her divorce (except heroic idealization of the situation when 'God' sends her). Leave her and stop looking for a narcisstic supply of idealized love and friendship.

My uBPD ex, with whom I had a devasting affair, also throws similar 'eternal friendship' card, which brings nothing except hurt and havoc to my life. My story is different in dynamics, but the end result similar - either you take the responsibility for the affair fully and commit, both of you, or leave without unnecessary romanticism, aknowledging that this was a mistake. If you think the marriage is what she needs - then her husband has to be her best friend and love of her life. Not you - as a romantic memory of the past with the touch of victim of circumstances.

Also it seems that you ex knows that you post here, since she advised you to join the board, i wonder how much are the things you write here influenced by her probable stalking you here.

Good luck!

[joekro]

Both she and I know that this was more than a mistake, it was a transgression against humanity, and she wants to end her cycle of r/s destruction and save her marriage.

With regards to undo influence of my comments due to her "stalking", well, I know she is reading my posts. There is nothing here that I have not already told her, except my prior post about telling her not to call again. Maybe she won't call now that I have indicated my intentions as to the future. Who knows.

I just listened to "set them free" by Sting and one line stands out to me... . "you can't control and independent heart, (can't hold what you can't keep), can't tear the one you love apart".

I guess that when I found out about her condition, because I hold her so close to my heart, that my "superman" gene kicked in and I had the chance to make a difference. Problem is, I went about it all wrong and now I have to pay the bill, and its gonna wipe me out.

[KE151]

This seems like a very weird game you play.

[joekro]

I don't expect everyone to understand, it's this "best friend" dynamic that is hard to resolve in my head. I wouldn't call this a game because no one wins. The damage is done.

[DivorcedNon]

WOW! Let me understand what you are saying. You do not her her to divorce but you want to continue interfering in this woman's marriage. How noble of you. I have no respect for people like you and her! Stop painting yourself as a hero or a victim.

[joekro]

Tough crowd.

I think disrupted her marriage is a better descriptor.

I'm not sure some of you are reading all that I have said, so I will paraphrase... .

/I am the wolf who preyed on the sheep/

/I have not and will not contact her/

/If there is a call from her in the future, it will be the last and I am close to being able to change my number/

/I am trying my hardest to let her go/

/what I have done is unforgivable/

Please don't be critical of her though, in my opinion, she is the biggest victim of all.

[Pearl55]

Jocro

Involving with a borderline wether married or not is a recipe for disaster. She's not a victim and whatever feeling you have for this woman is not love, is your childhood issues that has come to surface. Get away from her for your own sanity!

[fromheeltoheal]

Please don't be critical of her though, in my opinion, she is the biggest victim of all.

Hi jocro-

I don't know if you've noticed, but your stance on this issue has changed since the beginning of this thread; maybe folk's feedback has helped you see the reality of what's going on?

In any case, a borderline wants you to think she's the biggest victim of all, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is so you can be blamed for everything, because poor her.  Remember she's the adulterer here, and although having an affair with a married woman is not good, her transgression is bigger than yours.  Sure, she's got BPD which is very challenging, but it doesn't relieve her of taking responsibility for her actions.

[joekro]

I honestly think that I may be posting on the wrong board. This board seems to be for people with a rather jaded view of those with this disorder and I don't wish to beat them up. Yes, she cheated. I  allowed it to happen. Would she have seeked out someone else if it wasn't me... . maybe. What is, is. There are countless victims in this world of BPD, and it is my position that those afflicted with it have been suffering for their entire existence and my heart goes out to them. I am not a victim. I am a predator. We all have issues do deal with in our lives and nobody gets it right every time. Yet he who hath no sin, cast the first stone.

I appreciate everybody's input and this conversation has helped me tremendously. Thank you.

[fromheeltoheal]

Yes, folks like me on the leaving board who have been abused, lied to, cheated on, disrespected, belittled, condescended to, sometimes for many years, can sound a little jaded, as well as totally pissed off, a natural response to abuse, and anger is a necessary stage of grieving and healing.

Borderline personality disorder is a serious mental illness, and over time we develop sympathy for a sufferer, although empathy is difficult because that requires seeing things and feeling things the way a borderline does, which is very difficult and complex.  But the disorder still does not relieve the sufferer of responsibility.

You do sound like you are trying to leave, so of the boards on this site this may be the right one, but you also sound confused about all of the issues involved and your role in them, which we all were or are as we detach.  Take care a you!

[DivorcedNon]

Let me refocus discussion to the real problem for a minute and leave BPD crap aside. You are involved in destroying someone's marriage. That trumps BPD any time! If you think that this is a tough crowd go to some other boards that deal with Infidelity (talkaboutmarrige.com for example). Post your story. They will call you POSOM. Find out what that is. They will shred you into pieces and all of that in order to wake you up and get you our of this emotionally nauseating hole that you are in.

Your are welcome!

[joekro]

DivorcedNon, I don't know what happened in your life but I don't wish to exacerbate anger so I will quietly tell you that I am wrought with guilt and anguish over what I participated in. I come from a broken home and know the pain involved for all family members when the unit as a whole is at risk, and I supplied the opportunity for this one. I am ashamed of what I did. Feel free to verbally punch me in the face because I do deserve it. But, my jaw is not made of glass. You catch alot more flies with honey than you do vinegar.

When I have made up my mind to disappear completely, I will return to this board.

Again, thank you to all.

[fromheeltoheal]

Like I said jocro, your stance has changed dramatically since the beginning of this thread, or maybe you're just digging deeper and sharing more.  In any case if you've decided to leave, which is the right thing to do, if you're like us many conflicting emotions will come up as you detach emotionally, and this is a good place to air them and get some help and support.  Take care a you!

[Mutt]

Jocro,

Here is a little dose of reality - if you were so "concerned" about her husband or her marriage or the demise of it - you wouldn't have been screwing another man's wife.  OR putting yourself in an inappropriate relationship (INCLUDING friendship) with another man's wife.

If this is truly about a love you have for her - then you would stop this right now and remove yourself from her and her husband's lives.  Immediately and completely.

Sorry - Not trying to sound judgmental here - but what is right is right.  Sometimes there really IS a definite right and wrong.

I don't see how you are even remotely confused over what is right in this situation and whether or not you should TOTALLY BOOT YOURSELF OUT as you do not belong in any form in her life.  

That is her husband - and he is the one she should have this type of relationship with - not you.

Very clear from my perspective what the answer is.  You can take that or leave it or argue it if you want.  Frankly - I'm not God and the one who lays out whether this relationship you had and may continue to have with this woman is wrong - He's the one that defines that so I guess you would have to argue the point with him if it is disliked.

However - I guarantee you if it was YOUR wife you would have a totally different pair of glasses on.

You don't have any right to this woman.  She is not to be something special in your life.  She is in a covenant with her husband - and you are mixing a whole lot of disaster over your life, her life, her husband's life and her children's lives with the decisions you are making.

You do not belong there.  Repent (which means to turn around in the complete opposite direction/180) and remove yourself and go on with your life.

The best you can do at this point without causing more damage to all of the people involved now with the decision you two made is to be completely removed and ask God to help them now (not you "helping" in the wake of you two's destruction.

I'm sure her husband and children are hurting much more than the two of you put together.  :)o the right thing and bow out.

For those members that have know me on this board for a little while will know what my stance is when it comes to affairs as I was that husband and kids that where hurt.

I agree w/ Lady31 and sometimes I think that I do think too much in black and white, but when it comes to this, there is a definite right and wrong.

Jocro, your asking to be the OM or POSOM.

You have no idea what kind of pain you are going to inflict on the husband and kids.

Be a respectful man and let them divorce etc... . but don't be the catalyst.

Court a woman that is not married, put real work into it... .

[santa]

Good riddance, jocro.

You are a scumbag.

[Mutt]

Good riddance, jocro.

You are a scumbag.

Santa, thanks for saying what I was thinking and didn't type. 

[joekro]

Aren't we all... .


These assaults are somewhat juvenile.

I think I am going to reassess the productivity this chatting provides.

I was never out for sympathy, just wanted to try this "theraputic" resource. I think I will go it alone.

[Mutt]

Aren't we all... .


These assaults are somewhat juvenile.

I think I am going to reassess the productivity this chatting provides.

I was never out for sympathy, just wanted to try this "theraputic" resource. I think I will go it alone.

What you should reassess is your head.

What therapeutic resource is there for a man sleeping with a married woman?

[fromheeltoheal]

We all bring our own stuff to these boards jocro, and you're on a board with folks who have been in great pain as a result of their relationship with someone with a personality disorder.  I wasn't married to mine and she wasn't married to someone else, but your situation is triggering for a lot of folks here who have had families destroyed by the infidelity of their disordered partner, so to them you are the other guy and you're triggering their pain.  I have a gift for stating the obvious, but maybe that helps and you can find some support here somewhere if you need it.

[joekro]

My sincere apologies to anyone I have upset. This is why I will go a different route. I know I have caused irreparable damage to her husband and children, I can't take it back. If I could, I would. All I can is do feel my way through this maze for I have never been in this situation before, and I will never be here again.

Mutt, you may find this difficult to believe but this was my first and LAST affair. If I were married and this happened to me, I would be completely out of my mind and if someone like me was posting what I am, I'd be inclined to hunt him down and rid the world of him. I'm not here to inflict any pain on anybody and I'm sorry if I have.

[Mutt]

My sincere apologies to anyone I have upset. This is why I will go a different route. I know I have caused irreparable damage to her husband and children, I can't take it back. If I could, I would. All I can is do feel my way through this maze for I have never been in this situation before, and I will never be here again.

Mutt, you may find this difficult to believe but this was my first and LAST affair. If I were married and this happened to me, I would be completely out of my mind and if someone like me was posting what I am, I'd be inclined to hunt him down and rid the world of him. I'm not here to inflict any pain on anybody and I'm sorry if I have.

Thank you for the apology jocro.

I can't give you much help in this area, but I hope you ever don't end up on the other side of it because the collateral damage is devastating and the pain is very deep and long-lasting on a family.

I sense remorse jocro, bow out and don't do something like this again to a family is my advice.

Become a better man than this, good luck to you.

[myself]

Good riddance, jocro.

You are a scumbag.

Wow. I understand people here being triggered, upset, and having opinions about it. I go through it too. Reading this is triggering for me, bringing back memories of my ex saying things like that. What good would it do to attack you about it? It's so dismissive of what someone else is going through.

Having pain that's taken out on someone else, aren't many of us here trying to deal with that very thing? Constructive criticism, when someone is reaching out, is one thing, but this post crosses the line.

Mrs. Claus must have really done a number on you, Santa. As did most of our former partners here. I'm sorry you're going through it. Did she reach out for help, the way jocro is, admitting her misdeeds and seeking understanding? Probably not. How about some basic respect for him for at least trying.

[santa]

Good riddance, jocro.

You are a scumbag.

Wow. I understand people here being triggered, upset, and having opinions about it. I go through it too. Reading this is triggering for me, bringing back memories of my ex saying things like that. What good would it do to attack you about it? It's so dismissive of what someone else is going through.

Having pain that's taken out on someone else, aren't many of us here trying to deal with that very thing? Constructive criticism, when someone is reaching out, is one thing, but this post crosses the line.

Mrs. Claus must have really done a number on you, Santa. As did most of our former partners here. I'm sorry you're going through it. Did she reach out for help, the way jocro is, admitting her misdeeds and seeking understanding? Probably not. How about some basic respect for him for at least trying.

I've never even been married and my ex didn't cheat on me.

I just find it disgusting for someone to be involved with a married person. It's so degrading to everyone involved. The whole situation makes my skin crawl.

For that guy to fool around with a married woman and then come here looking for sympathy and try to justify his behavior and look for us to enable him to keep fooling with her really bothers me.

This site isn't supposed to be about that.

[Mutt]

Good riddance, jocro.

You are a scumbag.

Wow. I understand people here being triggered, upset, and having opinions about it. I go through it too. Reading this is triggering for me, bringing back memories of my ex saying things like that. What good would it do to attack you about it? It's so dismissive of what someone else is going through.

Having pain that's taken out on someone else, aren't many of us here trying to deal with that very thing? Constructive criticism, when someone is reaching out, is one thing, but this post crosses the line.

Mrs. Claus must have really done a number on you, Santa. As did most of our former partners here. I'm sorry you're going through it. Did she reach out for help, the way jocro is, admitting her misdeeds and seeking understanding? Probably not. How about some basic respect for him for at least trying.

myself, i think your looking in the "gray" area here and kudos to you. Speaking for myself, I'm sorry but I can't and I won't. I live by a certain moral compass and I can't be persuaded to come to the middle on infidelity.

I don't think that santa crossed a line. I think he said what many of us think that have been scorned like this. If it's out of bounds, well, that's what mods and admins are for.

I give jocro respect for apologizing and I wish him good luck on his life journey and that he changes things around for himself and puts morals / values in front of sex.

[fromheeltoheal]

I've never even been married and my ex didn't cheat on me.

I just find it disgusting for someone to be involved with a married person. It's so degrading to everyone involved. The whole situation makes my skin crawl.

For that guy to fool around with a married woman and then come here looking for sympathy and try to justify his behavior and look for us to enable him to keep fooling with her really bothers me.

This site isn't supposed to be about that.

And as we saw this thread was anything but enabling.  Also, if you read jocro's posts on this thread from the beginning, his stance has changed, and he seems to be experiencing the confusion we all did as we left our exes; when the fog clears there's more clarity.  I've never screwed around with a married woman, I too have a moral problem with it, but if my ex was married when she came at me the way she did, I honestly don't know what I would have done, because I got lost.  Not defending jocro's actions, just sayin I can relate to what could happen.  Remember, personality disorder.

[santa]

I've never even been married and my ex didn't cheat on me.

I just find it disgusting for someone to be involved with a married person. It's so degrading to everyone involved. The whole situation makes my skin crawl.

For that guy to fool around with a married woman and then come here looking for sympathy and try to justify his behavior and look for us to enable him to keep fooling with her really bothers me.

This site isn't supposed to be about that.

And as we saw this thread was anything but enabling.  Also, if you read jocro's posts on this thread from the beginning, his stance has changed, and he seems to be experiencing the confusion we all did as we left our exes; when the fog clears there's more clarity.  I've never screwed around with a married woman, I too have a moral problem with it, but if my ex was married when she came at me the way she did, I honestly don't know what I would have done, because I got lost.  Not defending jocro's actions, just sayin I can relate to what could happen.  Remember, personality disorder.

I'm sure she's difficult and I'm sure she put him through the wringer. If you mess with a married lady, you get what you deserve though.

[Pearl55]

Jocro

You are not responsible for her affair! She is an adult and responsible for her actions. Non BPDs on this board usually been able to see behind their borderline's MASKS and wised up. Non BPDs in other boerds still live in fantasy and have no clear understandings from disorder. My husband didn't cheat on me and I always felt he was in love with me. Don't get me wrong if my husband did cheat on me I would walk away because I didn't want to force myself to someone who doesn't love me. Life is about choices. So many people have affairs in normal relationships and find their love of their life. It's up to their opinions how they view their life.

Bpd is a different story. You are involved with an actress not a victim! It takes a very long time for non disordered people to work out everything.  I'm not talking about being involve with a married woman I'm talking about a disordered woman.

I accidentally noticed about my husband and everything was fine on surface. Take care.

[myself]

Cheating takes (at least) two.

I've been cheated on, I know how bad it hurts.

Attacking someone doesn't make it better.

[Mutt]

So many people have affairs in normal relationships and find their love of their life.

Do you have a source for this? I think that you are wrong. It's slim to almost none for it to become a long lasting relationship.

What's wrong with getting divorced first or at least separated with the intent of divorce, instead of overlapping?

[laelle]

Cheating takes (at least) two.

I've been cheated on, I know how bad it hurts.

Attacking someone doesn't make it better.

Short but sweet and I agree totally!

[Pearl55]

Mutt you have got a very black and white way of thinking. I haven't got source but I've been witnessed a lot. I have always been so honest with my husband and with everyone else. I don't approve cheating, not at all BUT if the husband of that woman was wise enough he should be away from her before and if he had a self worth he should have divorced her after cheating!

When cheating happens in normal relationship that marriage is OVER and that person is responsible for it. That means the person cheats hasn't got the right feeling for the other one. He doesn't know what is BPD. You should respect him for being brave enough to get some advice. He thinks he wants to save her, he's got no idea what's going on!

[Mutt]

I agree w/ Lady31 and sometimes I think that I do think too much in black and white, but when it comes to this, there is a definite right and wrong.

Mutt you have got a very black and white way of thinking.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I haven't got source but I've been witnessed a lot.

If you've witnessed  it doesn't mean that it's true in general. I have checked sources and it's > 7% of succeeding.

When cheating happens in normal relationship that marriage is OVER and that person is responsible for it.

 I don't remember getting divorce papers when my uBPDex cheated.

[maxen]

i haven't read this thread as it would trigger me, but i like this:

Jocro,

Here is a little dose of reality - if you were so "concerned" about her husband or her marriage or the demise of it - you wouldn't have been screwing another man's wife.  OR putting yourself in an inappropriate relationship (INCLUDING friendship) with another man's wife.

If this is truly about a love you have for her - then you would stop this right now and remove yourself from her and her husband's lives.  Immediately and completely.

Sorry - Not trying to sound judgmental here - but what is right is right.  Sometimes there really IS a definite right and wrong.

I don't see how you are even remotely confused over what is right in this situation and whether or not you should TOTALLY BOOT YOURSELF OUT as you do not belong in any form in her life. 

That is her husband - and he is the one she should have this type of relationship with - not you.

Very clear from my perspective what the answer is.  You can take that or leave it or argue it if you want.  Frankly - I'm not God and the one who lays out whether this relationship you had and may continue to have with this woman is wrong - He's the one that defines that so I guess you would have to argue the point with him if it is disliked.

However - I guarantee you if it was YOUR wife you would have a totally different pair of glasses on.

You don't have any right to this woman.  She is not to be something special in your life.  She is in a covenant with her husband - and you are mixing a whole lot of disaster over your life, her life, her husband's life and her children's lives with the decisions you are making.

You do not belong there.  Repent (which means to turn around in the complete opposite direction/180) and remove yourself and go on with your life.

The best you can do at this point without causing more damage to all of the people involved now with the decision you two made is to be completely removed and ask God to help them now (not you "helping" in the wake of you two's destruction.

I'm sure her husband and children are hurting much more than the two of you put together.  Do the right thing and bow out.

apparently nobody said this to my w or her paramour, and a few were in the position to do so. what people.

[joekro]

Please, everyone... . regardless of the circumstance, we are all here to figure things out and improve the current status of our lives. Confession, redemption, clarity, and understanding are the cornerstones of this. I think it is very counter productive to have fighting among the ranks and I sense animosity and contempt among us. Lets just all take a deep breath and reset.

[Mutt]

Please, everyone... . regardless of the circumstance, we are all here to figure things out and improve the current status of our lives. Confession, redemption, clarity, and understanding are the cornerstones of this. I think it is very counter productive to have fighting among the ranks and I sense animosity and contempt among us. Lets just all take a deep breath and reset.

I understand jocro and as much as this thread is triggering for myself. I'm actually glad for it. I got to vent out a little bit and it made me think about what I would say to OM if I had a chance to talk to him.

I have kids. It just makes think of what people are thinking when something like this happens. In regards to my wife. She didn't make a decision for one person. I had a family of 6. She made the choice for 5 other people and put herself in front of everyone else. I'm just tired of hearing blanket excuses to mask the fact that two people where selfish. "It wasn't meant to be" "I'm really happy now" I found true love" You know what uBPDex, your selfish.

I get all of that, I honestly do. I think there is just a different way of getting to that happiness and there's no need to be so destructive about it. In the case of my ex, she overlapped. She didn't want to go through abandonment depression. Your not happy, but your overlapping to throw the failed marriage on me and force my hand in divorcing you. You want a divorce yet you don't want to be the one that has to deal with it? It's passive aggressive. That's what happened in my case. Your not happy, fine, but there's a better way about it?

I could go out and listen to a wife lament about her husband etc... . and hit all of the right notes and telling her what she wants to hear, it's easy pickings compared to actually going out and dating and winning over that woman. That's work.

That gray area was pretty painful to 5 people and not simply 2 and I heard so many excuses from her friends / family and not one of them gave any consideration to my kids and their feelings. That black / white thinking, I don't see it like that, I see it as I choose to live in this case by my "core" values and I won't be persuaded. That's one of the reasons why my ex and I didn't jive, because our core values don't align.

If she fears abandonment, and she hooks-up with someone that has no problems with sleeping with married people, I would be worried if I was her. What's to say that neither are going to find "the one" behind each others back?

Good luck to them both after setting the foundation of their r/s on cheating and lying.

[fromheeltoheal]

OK, and you did say in your opening post that you were open to criticism, not a problem for people who have been on the other side and are triggered.  A little passion is good, it means we're getting real.

You also said I am, however, available to her for anything.  Is that still the case?

[myself]

A little passion is good, it means we're getting real.

I know what you're saying here, and agree.

I can also see those words coming from a pwBPD, and a cheater.

It's where are you coming from, where are you going.

[joekro]

I don't know fromheeltoheal. At this moment, if she called I would not answer. Tomorrow, is another day. I'm fighting my urges to keep the door open and unlocked for her. it's tough. I will keep repeating to myself that those people whom I hurt are good people and do not deserve to suffer due to my actions.

Today has really opened my eyes to the trauma these unsavory relationships create for the innocent others involved. From where I sit as the OM, despicable.

[fromheeltoheal]

I don't know fromheeltoheal. At this moment, if she called I would not answer. Tomorrow, is another day. I'm fighting my urges to keep the door open and unlocked for her. it's tough. I will keep repeating to myself that those people whom I hurt are good people and do not deserve to suffer due to my actions.

Today has really opened my eyes to the trauma these unsavory relationships create for the innocent others involved. From where I sit as the OM, despicable.

Well there you go, value from the boards.  We look forward to you hanging around and continuing on this board, it seems like the right one for you based on where you are in your relationship.

[musicfan42]

That gray area was pretty painful to 5 people and not simply 2 and I heard so many excuses from her friends / family and not one of them gave any consideration to my kids and their feelings. That black / white thinking, I don't see it like that, I see it as I choose to live in this case by my "core" values and I won't be persuaded. That's one of the reasons why my ex and I didn't jive, because our core values don't align.

I think that people have misinterpreted the actual meaning of black and white thinking on this thread.

Black and white thinking is only really relevant when it's about thoughts that are intervening with the quality of one's life and cause damage to their mental health and/or to those around them. For example, someone might be a perfectionist and think that they have to get an A in a test or else they're a loser. If they get a B, they might feel inadequate. By helping a perfectionist see that a B is okay... not what they would ideally prefer but not the end of the world either, it can help improve their mental health and help them deal with disappointment in life. That's a relatively benign example.

But I'm going to take a more serious example right now. A lot of people talk about how borderlines engage in "splitting" whereby they idealize people and then devalue them. This behavior has a negative effect on the borderline herself* and on those around her and that's why it's such a major problem. (*I'm using female pronouns here for the sake of simplicity however I recognize that statistically, 25% of all borderlines are male).

In contrast, Mutt is engaging in a pro-social behavior by having a value against cheating. It doesn't have a bad effect on himself nor anyone else. No mental health professional would consider this as a harmful behavior. They would just say that it's a personal value that he has and that he has a right to make his own decisions in life.

I think it's important to use CBT (Cognitive Behavior Therapy) terms like "black and white thinking" in the right context and not get them confused with the concept of values/morals.

[maxen]

I'm just tired of hearing blanket excuses to mask the fact that two people where selfish. "It wasn't meant to be" "I'm really happy now" I found true love" You know what uBPDex, your selfish.

... .

Good luck to them both after setting the foundation of their r/s on cheating and lying.

hear, hear

i said that last line in almost those words to my stbxw when i closed the door on reconciliation

[joekro]

That gray area was pretty painful to 5 people and not simply 2 and I heard so many excuses from her friends / family and not one of them gave any consideration to my kids and their feelings. That black / white thinking, I don't see it like that, I see it as I choose to live in this case by my "core" values and I won't be persuaded. That's one of the reasons why my ex and I didn't jive, because our core values don't align.

I think that people have misinterpreted the actual meaning of black and white thinking on this thread.

Black and white thinking is only really relevant when it's about thoughts that are intervening with the quality of one's life and cause damage to their mental health and/or to those around them. For example, someone might be a perfectionist and think that they have to get an A in a test or else they're a loser. If they get a B, they might feel inadequate. By helping a perfectionist see that a B is okay... not what they would ideally prefer but not the end of the world either, it can help improve their mental health and help them deal with disappointment in life. That's a relatively benign example.

But I'm going to take a more serious example right now. A lot of people talk about how borderlines engage in "splitting" whereby they idealize people and then devalue them. This behavior has a negative effect on the borderline herself* and on those around her and that's why it's such a major problem. (*I'm using female pronouns here for the sake of simplicity however I recognize that statistically, 25% of all borderlines are male).

In contrast, Mutt is engaging in a pro-social behavior by having a value against cheating. It doesn't have a bad effect on himself nor anyone else. No mental health professional would consider this as a harmful behavior. They would just say that it's a personal value that he has and that he has a right to make his own decisions in life.

I think it's important to use CBT (Cognitive Behavior Therapy) terms like "black and white thinking" in the right context and not get them confused with the concept of values/morals.

Very well said. Mutt was right on target.

[joekro]

Iv'e reached middle age and up to a year ago had a steadfast, ironclad rule that I lived by which was to absolutely never, ever, under no circumstance get involved with a married woman. The reason I never got married was to avoid what I did to someone else happening to me... . how screwed up is that! The rule is now back in place and it will never be broken again. I just changed my phone number so her contacting me now is moot.

What a day... .

[Mutt]

Very well said. Mutt was right on target.

Jocro, it takes guts to listen to other people that where on the other end of this and take it.

To err is human.

I take it back. I don't think that your a scumbag.

I'm here for some of the same reasons as you. I didn't listen to my intuition and ignored red flags and I made mistakes. I'm here because I want to change and grow. I think that your here for the same reasons and I can't judge you on that.

[joekro]

Mutt, something tells me that if I didn't have this strike against me, we would probably be buddies. My code vanished in the blink of an eye, but it has reemerged. Once regained, I can hopefully reconstruct who I was before all of this.

If we all lived by a code though, what the hell would we have done all day?

I'm gonna crack a beer and watch some hockey... .

[ShakinMyHead]

Good work Jacro! Welcome to L3. One day ay a time…. SMH

[joekro]

Thanks, good to be here.

[Mutt]

Mutt, something tells me that if I didn't have this strike against me, we would probably be buddies. My code vanished in the blink of an eye, but it has reemerged. Once regained, I can hopefully reconstruct who I was before all of this.

If we all lived by a code though, what the hell would we have done all day?

I'm gonna crack a beer and watch some hockey... .

Now we're speaking Canadian!    

Seriously though, no strike from me, you said that you had a moral code that you made a mistake and you can sympathize because you see what "effect" that it can have. It's a big one, but nonetheless it's just that. I don't know anything about the OM in my life, but it's different with him. He made a mistake and continues to make that mistake. I see him as a person that has low self esteem / needy , no sympathy/ empathy, no boundaries or values / morals.

She distorted to friends / family that I'm a deadbeat as a father and puts more value on him and that's painful but that's PD for you.

Whatever comes their way, they deserve it. They didn't put on the breaks. Trust is a major pillar of a r/s I think.

You thought me a lesson today, to not paint everyone with the same brush.

For that I'm grateful, thanks jocro.

[joekro]

I have a confession to make... . earlier, when I mentioned my rule to never get involved with a married woman, well it was there primarily to keep my life simple, affairs are complicated and go nowhere. As of today, its because it simply is wrong. That is what my lesson was today.

[Mutt]

I have a confession to make... . earlier, when I mentioned my rule to never get involved with a married woman, well it was there primarily to keep my life simple, affairs are complicated and go nowhere. As of today, its because it simply is wrong. That is what my lesson was today.

A man is but a product of his thoughts. What he thinks he becomes.

- Mahatma Gandhi

[ShakinMyHead]

Jacro, on L1 there is a posting with many great insights. It is also by a Newbie RMousy- "The Other Man" in a BPD relationship. If you haven't seen it yet, it may be helpful for you. You guys have some stuff in common. Best, SMH

[joekro]

SMH, I just read the thread you mentioned and boy does that guy got it bad. I think I am at an advantage because I've known my borderline for so long that I have a different dynamic at play. It's easier for me I think because she didn't "take me away" on a wild romance until 20+ yrs after we met. I have so many fond memories of us as friends to draw from that far outweigh any recent ones. But, recycling is a definite future pitfall. If and when that time comes, I hope I'm ready.

If we can keep RMousy on board, I think he will see the light.

Take a look at what I posted on his thread. I think if he can peer through the looking glass from a different perspective than his own, clarity may occur for him.

[ShakinMyHead]

Jocro, I read what you wrote…I think someone said it already, but, It bares repeating. It seems that the difference in this group L3, is that we have decided to go No Contact because the "Fog" has lifted. We see now, how it can never work. How it is actually our illness that allows the BPD to abuse us. It's like we are all running around the forest during hunting season with targets on our heads? Our Narcissism. There are many reasons, and I have my own theories based in Fantasy addiction, for another thread. RMousy is in withdrawal and will hopefully find his way through the fog. You were lucky with your timing. You got some pretty intense tough love, that basically knocked you right outta the fog! That saved you alotta time and $ in therapy …lol Don't be fooled though, it takes a tremendous amount of self love and self respect to resist the tentacles of the clumsiest BPD, let alone the skilled ones craving a hit. I suggest you start nailing your own windows shut and covering the mirrors. Excellent on the phone number change, you did great today! Night... SMH

[Pearl55]

Splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people.The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground.)

Black and white thinking is a BPD/BPD TRAITS as well as DISORDERED ones but disordered ones take it to the extreme. Many non BPDs have BPD/npd traits themselves that's why we stayed with them for so long!

[joekro]

Good morning,

I woke up today and am feeling alot like my old self again. Yesterdays commentary allowed me to realize the real reason I had to take myself out of the picture completely, and it's not because she is a borderline. It is solely because infiltrating a family like a wolf on sheep and sleeping with another mans wife is reprehensible. It will never happen again with ANYBODY's wife, this I promise you.

When she told me of her condition, I took a mild interest in it but more or less shrugged it off. Recently though, I have been a vacuum, sucking up all of the information I can about BPD... . just so I know. And now my only wish is that I was her last affair, and she and her husband/children have a wonderful life ahead of them, together.

I am sad though, that I have lost a dear friend, and that she suffers from this nightmarish existence.

[SheAskedForaBreak]

If you care about her stop doing the things that exacerbate her issues, like luring her into an affair.  How the heck would you feel if you were her husband?  I feel sorry for all of you.  You think you're fine, but dude you are not.  I had a hook up with a woman years ago and after the act she casually mentioned she's married... .   I lost her number.  Do the right thing bro, get out of that relationship.

[joekro]

Sheaskedforabreak,

I am out, complelely. It is over and done and I am fine with it. It is the right thing. I appreciate your comments and concern.

[joekro]

Your moment of clarity will come too, and when it does... . LIBERATION!

[happylogist]

Good riddance, jocro.

You are a scumbag.

Wow. I understand people here being triggered, upset, and having opinions about it. I go through it too. Reading this is triggering for me, bringing back memories of my ex saying things like that. What good would it do to attack you about it? It's so dismissive of what someone else is going through.

Having pain that's taken out on someone else, aren't many of us here trying to deal with that very thing? Constructive criticism, when someone is reaching out, is one thing, but this post crosses the line.

Mrs. Claus must have really done a number on you, Santa. As did most of our former partners here. I'm sorry you're going through it. Did she reach out for help, the way jocro is, admitting her misdeeds and seeking understanding? Probably not. How about some basic respect for him for at least trying.

I've never even been married and my ex didn't cheat on me.

I just find it disgusting for someone to be involved with a married person. It's so degrading to everyone involved. The whole situation makes my skin crawl.

For that guy to fool around with a married woman and then come here looking for sympathy and try to justify his behavior and look for us to enable him to keep fooling with her really bothers me.

This site isn't supposed to be about that.

It is interesting, Santa, that you acted in the most judgmental moralist way calling names among all people here, not people who truly were hurt, who stayed truly dedicated to their partners and never attempted to cheat. I saw several times your posts about cheating before here, here is the recent one:

Mine never cheated on me either. I cheated on her about 3 months into our relationship though and she never got over it. She did, but then she brought it up whenever she was mad and even recently. It wasn't even a relationship. Just some girl I met in an elevator and wound up having sex with like 5 minutes later when I was drunk. That's the kind of guy I was when we first got together though and I stayed faithful after.

If she cheated on me, I would never have stayed with her.

I think it is obvious that before being disgusted with people and expressing that by calling them names, a rule of thumb is to look at yourself and see whether you as others also have certain shortcomings, even though your cheating was not with a married woman and you stayed afterwards faithful to your partner... . Still not really a Santa... .

[DivorcedNon]

DivorcedNon, I don't know what happened in your life but I don't wish to exacerbate anger so I will quietly tell you that I am wrought with guilt and anguish over what I participated in. I come from a broken home and know the pain involved for all family members when the unit as a whole is at risk, and I supplied the opportunity for this one. I am ashamed of what I did. Feel free to verbally punch me in the face because I do deserve it. But, my jaw is not made of glass. You catch alot more flies with honey than you do vinegar.

When I have made up my mind to disappear completely, I will return to this board.

Again, thank you to all.

jocro,

What happened in my life is what is what happened in lives of many people who are reacting to your story. We were husbands of the woman you are having an affair. Several people pointed that out already. In my case this POSOM is someone I knew for a long time. He divorced his wife to be with my mentally ill ex-wife. One and a half years later, all that seems so immature and nauseating to me. She will cheat on the POSOM too. It is an integral part of her disorder. The POSOM thinks he won a lottery. I am glad to be out.

You need to terminate your affair with this cheating woman NOW and NEVER EVER have any contact with her again! This is not only for moral reasons but for very practical reasons too.  That is what I and others are trying to tell you although sometimes in a not so gentle way. Good luck!

[GreenMango]

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