How much do you help your adult child with BPD?

[kellygirl601]

My daughter is soon turning 21 and is on SSI.  She currently lives in a house with some friends and really seems to like it.  She has tried college, school, jobs and can't seem to make those work.  Should I expect her to?  What should I expect of her?  She got her license at 19 and it really changed her life for the better.  My Mom helped us get a car for her.  Not long ago someone hit her and totaled the car.  No one was hurt and it was not her fault, so we got reimbursed and bought another car.  Now the engine has gone out on this car.  I'm not a wealthy person by any means-this was a $3,000.00 car and I was really iffy when her dad bought it.  Anyway now we are stuck and she has no car.  She has no way to purchase one either.  I'm sure we can scrounge something up, we always do, but I'm so tired.  I'm 56 and I feel like we will never have anything.  I feel selfish saying that because I know life is not easy for her.  She is terribly lonely.  I feel like we just go from one chaos to the next sweeping up the pieces.  I worry about who will care for her when we are gone?  We have an older daughter and they don't even speak to each other.  Since she is considered disabled how can I not expect to help her?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[crazedncrazymom]

That is such a tough situation.  My dd is only 16 so we don't have to make those decisions yet.  I know we have a lot of parents with older kids who can give some great advice.  I can only offer my support and good wishes!

-crazed

[peaceplease]

kellygirl,

This is really tough!  I was just saying today how I used to have extra money to help my daughter.  My income has decreased, and I just do not have it to give to her anymore. Finances have ben really rough, lately. I do not have it to help her.  First, I do not have much stamina, and take care of my mother.  I have a per diem job and work minimal hours.  I was contemplating trying a full time job, only because we are in debt, and I can not help my daughter.  I would be better off financially, if I did not dish out so much to my daughter.  I have maxed out my credit card mostly due to her.  Some to my son, and my dh is credit happy.  He just loves to grab the credit card when we are short.  

I believe that if you have it and it does not hurt you, financially, then it is okay to help.  I understand that it comes to a point when you wonder if it will ever end.  I know that my daughter had assistance through electric company in paying her bill.  She paid a minimal amount.  She was required to pay when it was due, or she would lose the assistance.  She did not pay an $8 bill, and she just told me today.  It was due a week ago.   She has no problem asking for a pack of cigarettes, but will put her electric bill on back burner.   So, this is when I really say enough is enough.  She will have to find other resources to help her, if she loses it.  I help her more than I should because I have a grandson that is affected too.

My dh is not too motivated, either.  He had a mild heart attack in early November.  Now, he is fully recovered and he needs to get a job that pays more than $300 a month.  He gets a small social security check.  However, he needs to continue to work, as our credit needs paid off.  Everything is in my name.  His credit is poor.  He goes around the house and whines about how poor we are.  He says that so my dd will not ask for money.  But, my dh gambles and smokes.  My dd knows this, so she complains that we don't have much money because of my dh.  She is kinda right, and she is the other reason.  I feel like I will never get out of debt.

I am an LPN and have the opportunity to make decent money and get us out of the whole.  However, I would have nothing left over to give of myself to anyone.  I would have energy just to go to work, and that is it.  I need to take care of my mother.  She does not want me to be gone 8 hours a day, five days a week.  She tells me to pay myself out of her money.  However, I don't feel it is right,  for her to pay for my daughter's needs.  I have the opportunity to get a full time job, but I decided to not jeopardize my health, or neglect my mother.  When my mother is gone, then I will work full time.  And, that is all I will do.  My dh can take care of the house.  

I am sorry I got carried away.  I would say, that I think it is okay to help, BUT only if it does not hurt you.  And, if your dd is doing her best in paying for what she NEEDS.  My dd is on cash assistance, and will attempt to get a serving job when she gets her license back next month.  There are none, locally.  She gets a little over $300 a month., now.  So, she does need help.  However, once she gets her license and gets a job, then I am done.  If she loses another job, then I give up.   My dd may be forced to get help if she does not have my grandson to collect financial assistance.  

I am the same age as you.  My dh is 65.

peace

[pessim-optimist]

Hello kellygirl,

it is definitely a hard situation and a difficult decision... .  

My question would be - is she considered 'disabled' as in she is not expected to be able to hold a job?

If so, I would try to find a way to help her, but at the same time, maybe she can be expected to help you in return?

If she would be able to hold a job, she might be gently pushed into re-paying it to you (and you could be saving the money to buy the next car... . ) That way, you would be in control of the 'savings', and you would not have to scrounge up every time the old car gives out.

Would that work, or would it be too much to expect from dd?

[qcarolr]

My T said something that startled me out of my compulsion to financially support my DD. "qcr, people do die. You and Dh need to focus on your needs right now. And to be there for gd"  I am 58 and dh is 63. We have a limited amount set aside for retirement - we will have to work as long as possible. We cannot let it all get siphoned away by DD's neediness. Her needs will always be there, and she will always be asking. We have to get better at saying no and feeling OK about it.

Hard to shift from being the mommy that needs to be there for the child. I am entering a new stage of my life, DD needs to enter her new stage or at least learn to lean on the public resources all around her. I have to get out of her way. Hard hard hard. New patterns needed all around.

qcr

[kellygirl601]

Thank you all so very much!  I get so much strength from your stories.  I do have to say that since my daughter has been on disability and receives her monthly check, she does not ask for anything, except when something unusual comes up.  She really struggled with getting her license, but what a difference it made in her life!  My Mom helped  us get her an inexpensive car and she beat it to death, but no one got hurt.  She had some accidents, tickets, and in the end someone pulled out in front of her and totaled the car.  We took that money and dh bought another one.  It has not lasted long  :'( :'(.  She is on disability.  She lives in a house with friends and loves it.  She would love to work, but can't seem to hang on to a job.  She either gets the hours mixed up or things like that.  She SO wants to be "normal".  I feel terrible for how lonely she is.  That is why she loves living with these people, there is always someone there.  I could get her another car.  I'm just tired of not having things I feel we deserve at our time in life-new windows, new driveway, things to fix up the house a bit.  She recently had to go to court due to her driving record.  We had to hire a lawyer ($250.00) and fines ($160.00) so that she wouldn't lose her license.  On the other hand I thank God that the legal issue wasn't with anything worse, you know?  She pays for her rent, food, gas out of her disability, which comes in my name.  I was shocked that she didn't call me screaming at work when she found out about the car.  I have to say as far as debt goes, dh is a saint.  He spends nothing.  Never on himself for sure.  I just thought things would be different at this point in our lives.  His siblings all travel and do all these fun things that we are not able to do.  Thank you for listening.

[peaceplease]

kellygirl,

Being on SSI, is she allowed to make a minimal amount of money for extras? 

I understand what you mean about not being able to keep a job.  My dd has a big problem with that.  She would never apply for SSI because she says that she means that she is giving up.  However, she does not have enough of documentation to even qualify.  She goes when she is in a crisis, then stops when crisis averts.  She is never compliant with her meds. 

There does come a point where you say enough is enough.  And, I am ready to make some deadlines for my dd. She is paying for the cell phone for next month from her income tax refund.  Then, I will give her one more month.  If she is unable to pay for it, then I will take it over.  Crazy thing is that she pestered me for this I phone, and told me that she always paid her own cell phone bill.  That was true, but she lost her job three weeks after I allowed her to get I phone on my account.  So, crazy me, paid for her Iphone with data package, while I have this cheap old person phone.  I told my dd that if she can't come up with money to pay her phone after next month, then we will trade phones.  An Iphone is a luxury that I could live without, but if I am paying for one, I will use it, and not my dd. 

As qcr mentioned, you need to take care of yourself.  I already went through my retirement savings.  You dd does get SSI and has roommates.  How much would engine cost?  Has she called around junk yards to find out?  Perhaps, she can start setting money aside for it.  Your dd already gets money for being disabled, so you should not have to supplement that.  You said that your husband bought car, and you were iffy when you bought it.  I was iffy about letting my dd on our cell phone plan.  For years, I was good about not putting anyone on my plan.  But, then my dh told her that she could be on our plan.  Then, he is the one who threw a fit when he found out that she wanted a smart phone and a data package was not optional. 

In our crazy state of PA, they will give $1500 to a cash assistance recipient for a car.  But, they will not give you money if you have a job.  It is crazy, and gives no incentive to get a job.  My dd is planning on getting a car, as soon as she gets her license.  Then get a job.  I was wondering, if perhaps your state may be as crazy as PA.  They may help pay for repairs?

peace

[kellygirl601]

I was iffy about the car because it had so many miles.  We paid for it out of insurance money from the totaled car.  With her SSI it covers her rent and such.  She just moved out last month.  She can work, but then she has to report that and they take a percentage of it off her next check.  She is still money ahead if she works.  The car is not fixable-the mechanic said the engine would cost way to much to replace, however, dh is calling a mechanic that he uses to see what he says.  Regardless we will have it towed to him.  I know it could be so much worse. 

[trytrytry]

Kellygirl,

These decisions seem so big.  Like so much depends on them.  My BPDDD27 does not recieve any financial help from SSI, since she's never sober, or clean long enough to qualify.  Also, according to her, on most days, she does not have a disability.  She's been out of my house (mostly) for the last 4 years.  Lives with a man/boy for awhile till it falls apart. Keeps a job for a while.  Tries school for awhile.  Comes home between boyfriends.  She's wrecked every vehicle she's owned (mostly junker cars I bought for her).  I bailed her out of large credit card debt when she was 20.  No more of either.  I'll let her live with me for short periods so she does not need to be homeless-No drugs, alcohol or men over.  Neither of us like it when she is home.   I'll pay for her bus pass, and perhaps give her a few bucks from time to time.  I need to decide whether to take her off my living trust- Now, the house is divided between her and my nondd25.

On most days, it's all OK.  I try to look at (and remind her) of what she has accomplished (AA degree; HS diploma; good dancer, etc.  She can be so sweet and funny.)  She is not what I had in mind when I gave birth, but she is who she is.  I have set good bounderies around my wallet, and my heart.  Most days that is enough.

Best wishes with your decisions- It is all a process and will come to you in time.

[Eclaire5]

Try not to sweat it so much over the car. Does she have access to public transportation? If you guys live in a place where she could ride a bus, then just let her do that. She is on disability, so she does not have to travel far to go to a job, school, or anything like that. If she only needs to go to the store or visit friends, she can use public transportation or even ride a bike. Our DD 20 lives with us and we provide school tuition, food, and basic clothing, but are not paying for a car or anything else that is not a basic need. We have been very clear with her that it is OUR money and we do not have to provide anything if we don't want to because she is now an adult. Setting clear boundaries and limits is hard for us parents, but we HAVE to keep them!

[MammaMia]

My dBPDs is 39 and has a dual diagnosis.  He has been told he should be on disability because he cannot hold a job, and when he is really stressed, he cannot deal with people. 

He refuses to apply for any type of funding.  He says it labels him as disabled.   He also has a felony from when he was drinking.  He has been sober since 2006.  He wants to work but says he is unhirable.  ?

I have been supporting him since 2010, and it is killing me financially and it distresses him to have to depend on me.  He has no case worker or probation officer and no medical insurance.

What can he do to get off my payroll?  How does one apply for disability?  He has been told he does not have enough SS credits for SSI.

Any suggestions?

 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[twojaybirds]

I go back and forth about these types o questions as well. Ultimately I ask:

Is this situation her fault... . if yes she needs to fix it

                                      if no then how would I help a non-BPD sibling w/in my needs

Am I helping out of guilt?

Am I helping because I WANT to?

I helped my 19dd buy a car - under mine name as owner but she needed to pay her insurance

She did for 3 months then stopped so I re-poed the car.

I got tired of her complaining and because she often ends up sleeping on the streets for ME I:

"gave" her the car totally and a lecture about insurance

since then every birthday/Christmas she get a nice dinner and card that takes 300.00 off the price of the car.

She is driving the crap out of it (7,000 miles in 4 months)and it wont last long but I told her no more cars from me

[Eclaire5]

MammaMia: He does not need to have any SS credits to be on disability. He just needs to have enough medical evidence of his mental health problems showing that he is not able to support himself due to his psychiatric issues. I would avise for him to see a lawyer who specializes on SS cases. Just make sure he gets one that only charges if they win the case. When the person begins to receive benefits, the lawyer pretty much gets all the back pay (payments are retroactive) for their fees.

[thelady_v2010]

I do too much. Well, not now that he is in jail.

Last year I paid for his entire separate household. To save my marriage. I paid rent/food/all bills/medical/gas and he got his 4th car from me as well. Blew the engine up in car 1, gave him my old car for car 2, blew the engine up in car 3. My husband and I fought about car 4 and I won. That car still runs.

When he gets out of jail we have agreed that we will help him get on his feet. It will have to end at some point. He also cannot keep a job. If he coould get SSI that would help a lot, but I am not sure how to start that process.

[kellygirl601]

When dd was a teen the hospital told us to apply for SSI. I did not want to label her. Finally when I saw that things weren't getting better I knew we all needed help. I was told that so many services would be available to her if she were on SSI. I also knew she couldn't be on my med ins forever so it might be good to do this because this qualifies her for medicaid. I was prepared to go through a huge struggle for the SSI. She had been in the hospital so many times at that point (at least a dozen). She got SSI in no time. I was very surprised. She also recently started going to therapy through that. She also qualifies for food assistance but hasn't done this. She does have BPD but other dx also-she was described as a mixed bag... . wonderful. She's extremely lonely but luckily she's really picky and I'm thankful for that. We do our best to make her live within the means of her income and she does pretty well. I'm worried that if we get another cheap car we are going to be dealing with this again soon.

[pessim-optimist]

She also qualifies for food assistance but hasn't done this.

... . We do our best to make her live within the means of her income and she does pretty well. I'm worried that if we get another cheap car we are going to be dealing with this again soon.

Kellygirl - you might have an answer here. If your dd was receiving the food assistance, the money she pays now for food might be going to pay off her car.

So, you could "loan her" the money and buy her a car (the last one you need to), and have her re-pay you every month. You would be saving the money for her next car that way... . Of course, we are not talking about needed repairs, and/or car accidents - those might have to be covered still somehow - maybe she could be paying you a bit extra for those purposes, and you could match those funds and be ready when needed.

I know, it still is an expense, but it puts less financial pressure on you in the long-run.

[RunningWithScissors]

I'm following this discussion with interest and have a question that I might have missed.  It appears that the gist of the discussion is 'do I buy my adult BPD a car?'. 

Are there any other transportation options? Why does it have to be a car, which is incredibly expensive to purchase, maintain, insure, repair etc? 

Just thought bikes or public transportation might be a feasible option.  Perhaps slightly less convenient but I just felt that the discussion was based on an assumption that people needed cars.  Oh excuse me... . I have to go tune up my bike now... .   :-)

[thelady_v2010]

Sadly our public transportation sucks and the city is not bike friendly.

[pessim-optimist]

Are there any other transportation options? Why does it have to be a car, which is incredibly expensive to purchase, maintain, insure, repair etc? 

That is a really good question, and as thelady_v2010 mentioned, the answer will greatly depend on where the pwBPD lives... .

While I lived in Europe, I never had a need for a car. It would be considered a luxury. Where I live in the States now, not having a car is like not having legs. And in the winter - it would be sheer torture of a day-hike even try to get groceries and/or get to and from a laundromat. I am sure there are cities where it's dangerous to be on foot... .

[Aussie mumma]

Boy its been quite some time since I was on here... . I too have the issue ... how much do we keep assisting our BPD daughter... our daughter is almost 38yrs old and ... has a male friend paying most of her bills... she moved into his granny flat downstairs... with our granddaughter... this man has spoken to me regarding my BPD d"s financial problems and how he plans to assist her by putting her on his medicial plan... his road service card... (but we are strictly in a platonic relationship... right) she no longer speaks to us... as we asked could we have a couple of weeks... while I regain my health... I had a breakdown and didn't want to see anyone for a few weeks... now we aren't permitted to see our granddaughter... if you want to see her you see me... at this point we have secret visits with our granddaughter... with assistance from her bf & his parents... I'm so tired of all the drama.& stress associated with our dd... I love her dearly ... but until I get on top of things... I feel I cant have visits from her... and this causes undue guilt on my part... I'm seeing a psychologist to help with coping skills... the last 6-8 months have been quite surreal... anyway to get back to the topic at hand... I feel there comes a stage where one needs to step back and analyse what is best for the child... and how many times do you keep going to the rescue--in our situation we rescued our dd many times both monetary... having her move back home 3 times... etc . I worry about our gd... as she is now beginning to believe what her mum is saying in regards to us... . I think that's enough babbling for today   

[pessim-optimist]

... . I feel there comes a stage where one needs to step back and analyse what is best for the child... and how many times do you keep going to the rescue--in our situation we rescued our dd many times both monetary... having her move back home 3 times... etc

This is a very real question and often a hard one to answer in real-life.

In theory - if we are doing something for our child that they are able to do for themselves, or that enables them to continue harmful behavior, then it's not wise. If we are truly helping - i.e. doing what the child needs and cannot do for themselves and it's not part of enabling unhealthy behaviors, then we still need to assess whether we are willing/able to continue doing it, or whether there are other ways to accomplish the same thing... .

I worry about our gd... as she is now beginning to believe what her mum is saying in regards to us... .

There is a great book (it primarily talks about poisoned relationships due to divorce, but it applies to grandparents too. There are suggestions on how to tackle that kind of behavior and how to keep a connection. The book is called: Divorce Poison- Richard A. Warshak, PhD

Here is also a link about grandparents' rights, but I am not sure how much of that applies in Australia too... .

What is the story on "Grandparents' Rights?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[MammaMia]

Aussie

Remember that your actions speak louder than words. Continue letting your gd know how much you love her and stay in contact.  She must be old enough to be aware her mother is sick and does not always see things as they really are, and I doubt she believes the negative things her mother says about you.  Your gd KNOWS you. 

How does your gd feel about living with her mother? Is she ok with it or does she feel she has no  choice?  When will she turn 18?

I am sorry to hear you have been ill, and hope you are doing better. The last thing you need right now is more anxiety. Did you tell your your dd she is adversely affecting your health with her demands? 

I wish you health and strength. Please let us know how things are going and what we can do to help you.  Most of all... . don't give up.

[PyneappleDays]

Hi

My DD is 19 still in highschool but has decided to live on her own because doesn't like our rules. I base my decision on helping her financially on the circumstance. If it's something she needs like new clothes for winter definitely but with a budget and a specific store.  I'm not helping her with rent.  She moves too much; I'm not coming up with it every other month. She recognizes her shortcomings.  There's no way she's ready for her driver's licence.  I would not buy her a car unless I knew that I could expense it.  I know that I would have to help her with it.  There's no way I would put that burden on her.  I know what her triggers are.  If I could I’ll say I’m sorry we tried but can’t right now.

It's a rough situation you’re in. 

I think we all feel that way from time to time.  I know I do worry about her when I’m gone.  There are agencies that she can turn to but they don’t.  Feeling sorry for them doesn’t help them in the long run.

I little bit by little bit get her to stand on her own and she knows I expect her to start at least a trade.  She on assistance and she know I’ll bit ticked if she remains on it.  I have no problem setting that goal for her.  She needs to reach for something.  Adulthood is around the corner she needs to be ready for it on her own feet.  I’m patient the rest of the world isn’t and she needs to live in it when I’m gone.

Good luck.

[HarposGal]

I've seen the results of parents who keep 'giving' to their adult children w BPD. Parents who feel they could 'never put a burden' on their child. You do realize the BPDscam is to make you feel bad enough to allow them no rules and no responsibility right? Cause they are 'too fragile' to have to be accountable for the real world. If you believe she can't handle adult life as you seem to be describing, get her inpatient care. You allow the borderline condition to fester when you allow them the priveleges of a helthy adult, but then YOU carry out the tasks that would 'earn' those priveledges. It's a mixed message. She knows you worry and uses it to suck you dry.

The result of your enabling will be similar this:

At 30 he fits the clinical description of an entitled psychopath, although many male BPD appear that way at the peak of the disease (hits around 28). Some is never enough, and he doesn't care unless someone else has it. He doesn't have to respect anyone, but demands the respect of a world dignitary. Don't look him directly in the eye if you are not worthy! He spends the money he earns on surfboards and cellphones, then his parents give him money when he doesn't have any for the mechanic. The next time his car broke, he just left it in the parking space and was depressed until mommy let him share hers. The longer you help the more outragous and dangerous the scenarios they will create to get help. Last summer he burned down his own apartment becasue his dad said he couldn't live at his house any more. They had to go to great lenghts to placate him after that... . you don't want to hear that story but it affected so many lives in a very negative and traumatic fashion. These enabled adult BPD's cause terrible pain and anguish to everyone they have a relationship with. I know this affects your family, and I sympathize, but did you ever think about the rest of the world?

THE ONLY WAY TO HELP YOUR ADULT CHILD WITH BPD IS TO STOP HELPING. The books say you are supposed to simply provide NO assistance unless they agree to counseling and then only if the therapist says it's appropriate.

Remember if you truly care, it doesn't matter who/how she gets cured. Or do you NEED to be the one to save her?

[llbee814]

HarposGal,  people with BPD don't always exhibit the same symptoms.  Criteria is five out of nine and if I was better at math I could probably figure out how many combos there are... . the # really doesn't matter,  though,  since many of our BPDs have comorbid issues to boot and that really can throw some you-know-what in the game.  No pun intended, but dealing with BPD is not always black and white.  Plus there can be a huge difference in viewpoint when you are dealing with your child vs. a significant other.  While I agree that enabling is not a healthy thing, not all help is enabling.  When people have innocent  grandchildren involved, in this world,  decisions become even more difficult.  We all have a tough row to hoe and can only try our best to cope in any given situation.  Blessings, llbee.

[HarposGal]

HarposGal,  people with BPD don't always exhibit the same symptoms.  Criteria is five out of nine and if I was better at math I could probably figure out how many combos there are... . the # really doesn't matter,  though,  since many of our BPDs have comorbid issues to boot and that really can throw some you-know-what in the game.  No pun intended, but dealing with BPD is not always black and white.  Plus there can be a huge difference in viewpoint when you are dealing with your child vs. a significant other.  While I agree that enabling is not a healthy thing, not all help is enabling.  When people have innocent  grandchildren involved, in this world,  decisions become even more difficult.  We all have a tough row to hoe and can only try our best to cope in any given situation.  Blessings, llbee.

Also I was simply giving an example of what could happen. Parents don't project how many lives could be ruined by pretending their child is 'ok' to live on their own, but they are handling the responsibilities. Of course we all know the smptoms manifest differently. When it comes to helping an adult sufferer there is only one solution, this is a medical fact. The point is that the grey area should not be determined by YOU. It is only for a medical professional to decide what help is ok, because you are not objective.  I thought if just one of these parents could see their future, they might be able to say no before they put someone in the world who will devastate so many innocent peoples lives. Anything you do for them that a normal adult would do for themselves is enabling.

[pessim-optimist]

It is only for a medical professional to decide what help is ok, because you are not objective.

Hello HarposGal, it's a fair point that parents aren't objective. And I think that we as parents would love to have a medical professional living with us to tell us what is ok to help with and what isn't... . However that is not possible, yet we are often left in a situation where we need to make a decision whether to help or not.

Sometimes the medical professional would tell us to help and sometimes the medical professional would tell us not to help.

So, while we cannot have a medical professional living with us, we are trying to educate ourselves as much as we can on the disorder and understanding what drives the behaviors. There are many books and resources even on this website that are written for people like us, so we can be better informed on the difference between what is helpful helping and what is enabling.

This is a good example of a workshop on that topic: Are you supporting or enabling?

Does that make sense?

[peace in steel town]

That's easy, not at all. Support, advice, a hug, whenever you can, but as soon as you have to open your wallet, that's the time to say no. I have read all of the comments with interest, and it's amazing how many people have put their own health and financial well being in jeopardy to enable someone who doesn't appreciate it. Let's be honest, you could sell everything you have, give the money to dd , and next week she will be back for more. Dr Phil has a saying for this, you don't fix money problems with more money. He also says that you help them to make you feel good, to ease your fear and guilt, not to help them. He had a really good show on last month, about a 20something son that was so lazy, rather than go downstairs to pee, he would pee in a water bottle and store it in his closet. You mentioned about buying a car for dd. Why does a person with no job NEED a car? Use transit, a cab, bicycle, walk, whatever. A car is for someone who works for the privilege of owning one. Seriously. A buddy of mine owns a small apartment building, and 20 years ago, he let his daughter move in and let her live there rent free, to get out of debt. She owes more now than she did then, and now only works 2 shifts a week. When her brother got married 13 years ago, and the parents were giving him money for a down payment for a house, she was mad. I pointed out that she was living rent free, and she said that unless she got a lump sum in her hand, it didn't count. Actually, this story gets worse, since she lived there rent free, he could not afford to pay someone to do the repairs, he had to do it himself.The strain of doing all the work himself, and the loss of his wife 4 years ago, gave him a stroke, and now he can barely talk. My own dd was too cheap to buy her mother a card for her birthday, two weeks ago today. Of course, dw dismisses my upset, saying that the kid is struggling, and has no money. Dd treats my wife like she's an ATM machine, but is too cheap to buy something from the dollar store for her birthday. Today, on facebook, I see that dd has gone to not one, but 2 concerts in the past 4 days. She even posted the ticket stub, for 24 dollars, out in Toronto. How she got there, I don't know, when everyone in the house she's living in , is on welfare. I suspect she paid for the boyfriend, too. Helping does not help. All you do is teach them who they can use and take advantage of. Having said all this, I'm sorry that everyone on this forum has to deal with the crap that they do.   

[qcarolr]

Peace in steel town - welcome to our parent board.

My first question is are you a parent of an adult child suffering with BPD?

Your examples of how difficult it is to practice the detachment with love principles are valid. Each of us here on this forum struggle with the balance of how to love our children with how to push the out of the nest. I have spent a lot of effort the past year with interpersonal neuroscience and attachment theory. There is research based evidence that the bonds of a parent to a child are unique. There is a brain based connection that creates a true yearning toward the child, and a true need for that to be reciprocal for both individuals to grow in a healthy relationship. There are many ways this can be inhibited and blocked on either or both sides of this relationship. These principles have been published by several researchers and professional in the psychological field in the past several years.

Here are two books that do a really good job of incorporating this knowledge related to improving difficult parent-child relationships.

"Overcoming BPD" by Valerie Porr   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128777.0

"Brain Based Parenting" by Daniel Hughes   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=195469.0

My BPDDD is almost 28. She has struggled with many issues her entire life, some from birth. She and I have struggled to have a healthy, well attached relationship for this entire time. Yes, I have been what some may call an over-protective parent. She needed me to advocate for her, as she is not able to do this for herself. She still needs an advocate and it needs to be someone in the community that has better access to the system of resources vital to her survival. Yes, we have provided more finanacial support than we could afford, and in many ways it has not 'solved' her issues. Yes, her choice to participate in treatment has to come from deep inside herself. Yet, she has such a nebulous sense of self - this really gets in her way to move forward in her life. She has not responded to our detachment, to the point where she has lived homeless much of the past 5 years. The past 3 years of intermittently being in our home has caused much trauma for all of us, including her daughter who is 8 now.

I would love to hear your story about the pwBPD in your life and how you manage that relationship.

qcr

[peace in steel town]

Hello qcarolr. I understand that there is a bond between parent and child, and as dd is not my biological daughter, the bond is thin and fragile. She is 19, she moved out the first time just over 2 years ago, and the second time 8 months after that. The second stay was short, maybe only 6 weeks. Since she took off the first time, she has had maybe 32 changes of address, so it has not been easy for her. Most of her stuff has been stolen, by her so called friends. She and I got along very well, from when I first started dating her mom 6 years ago, to when the two of them moved in with me 3 years ago. She had complained about how her dad treated her, and how she wanted to be treated like an adult, with respect. This we gave her, until we stumbled across her lies regarding homework and her marks. Then we started saying no, and then the defiance began. One day, over a dispute over homework, she took off for a friends place, and spent almost a week bouncing around, getting high. When she was ready to come home, I said no, stay with your brother. She went to live with her father, then came back to us. I was ready for her, and didn't take her crap at all. Over a dispute over piercings, she took off again, hasn't been back since. My wife gives her money here and there, we try to get dd into treatment, but she won't have any part of it. Dd has very little to do with me. If she calls here, she doesn't want to talk to me, she wants the phone passed over to mom so she can ask for money. If we talk about getting drunk and having a hangover, then she has common ground and will talk to me. When my wife meets up with dd, I am not allowed to come along, as I might say something that might upset dd or her underage boyfriend. I get in the way of them asking for money. I am pretty sure that if I gave her money whenever she asked for it, I would be her best friend. I refuse to cater to dd, she is almost 20 and has a lot of growing up to do. She is missing a lot of life skills, and enabling her won't help. If no one would help her, she would have to get a job. I think that in a year and a half of school, she passed only one class, singing. I hear the trouble everyone is having with their child. A grandchild in the mix only complicates things, as it's easy to say no to your kid, but you don't want your gd to suffer. I have read some of the books, and the biggest things seem to be boundaries and changing how to interact with the other person, and maybe that will change how they interact with you.         

[qcarolr]

Peace in steel town, thanks for sharing your story here. It is good to hear from the the step-dad's perspective.

My wife gives her money here and there, we try to get dd into treatment, but she won't have any part of it. Dd has very little to do with me. If she calls here, she doesn't want to talk to me, she wants the phone passed over to mom so she can ask for money.

This has been the same pattern for a long long time in my home. It is hard for me when I know my Dd27 is living homeless, on the street or couch surfing. She too gets a lot stolen or maybe sold. We are trying to resist giving her anything when she gets out of jail this time. No cell phone, no money, no rides. I can drop off stuff that we are sorting to put in storage as we re-purpose her room. It takes monumental support for me to accomplish these things as it feels like giving up on her.

I am realizing that my dh, who seems so cold at times, is just coping in his own ways with the pain he feels with our DD27. I tend to over-react and he tends to withdraw. We are working to meet in the middle, and learn to give our marriage priority. From the first night when DD came to our home at 3 weeks she has been the center of my universe. It takes such work to shift these stubborn patterns. Yet, things are better between dh and I even as DD27 has slipped deeper into her abyss.

Knowing we are truly gd's parents, we have had custody since she was a baby, and letting go of expectations that DD will ever be in a consistent, supportive relationship with her daughter, has helped to shift these patterns. We get lots of support for this from a great child/family T that is primarily there for gd. She is supporting us in not allowing DD in our home at all.

  I have read some of the books, and the biggest things seem to be boundaries and changing how to interact with the other person, and maybe that will change how they interact with you.         

Yep, this is the backbone of what seems to work for many parents on this forum. Each family has to figure out the details that work best in their particular situation. And I try to remember this is a cyclical disorder. Even with treatment, which my DD so far refuses, some cycling will always be there during times of stress.

qcr

[peace in steel town]

Dear qcarolr, thank you for sharing. It would appear that you are 9 years ahead of us, as dd just announced today that she is pregnant. Not sure how far along. We can see it coming, that the boyfriend will disappear, and that we will have to do more than our share. Ironic, when the news broke today, mom was critical, I was supportive, even though dd and I don't get along right now, and her boyfriend hates me. 

[MammaMia]

Peaceinsteel

Oh boy ... .    Could this be the time to treat her as an adult, with respect, of course, as she has requested?  Not funny, I agree.  Will she be able to care for a baby?

Life just got really complicated.  I am sorry.

[qcarolr]

Peace in Steel Town,

There is also a second child, my gs6. Before DD every got pregnant again we told her we could not get this involved with another child. We were, and are, at our limit financially, emotionally, etc. So we limited our contact. This was a different dad, they got married, lots of neglect, he was in foster care at 5 months. After a year of weekly visits, including my bringing gd monthly, he was free for adoption. The foster parents adopted him. I have very limited contact, mostly watching on the mom's facebook page.

Now is a good time to really consider you and your wife's particular life goals. My take on her being critical, as a grandma I carry most of the details and management needed for a child. It is a very complex choice and deserves lots of consideration. There are many grandparents on this board and about as many different ways of coping. It sure makes holding to boundaries with the grown up child harder to enforce when we cannot know the full impact on the little ones. And there are many that are able to parent their kids.

If you want to bounce some ideas around, may I suggest you start a thread on this topic.

qcr

[peace in steel town]

Dear qcarolr, your story does not get happier the more you tell of it. Neither does ours. Yesterday, I was tickled pink that I would be a grampa . I'm not happy she's pregnant, but if you have lemons, make lemonade. Today, his family wants the baby either aborted, or given up for adoption. He has been playing house with her for a year, and now he's hiding behind his mom's apron, hoping this will go away. Dd refuses to abort the baby. Big decisions, big problems. Tomorrow, I will try to get her into a home for teen moms, as I deliver there, they know me. No money, but a safe place for her and the baby. My wife and I do not really have a plan yet, but no enabling. Her decisions got her into this mess, and she needs to own that.     

[qcarolr]

peace in steel town,

Will she agree to this? I am a big supporter of the woman's right to choose, with or without the father's support. It will be good for her to get counseling and support to make her choices. There is time for this if she lives in a supportive environment.

She will need her family support in whatever choice she makes.

qcr

[MammaMia]

Peaceinsteel

I am sorry you all are going through this.  It is going to be your daughter's decision.  I suspect there will be some long, hard days ahead.  Why oh why do these young guys think they have no responsibility when a pregnancy occurs?  Your daughter did not get pregnant by herself.

Peace.

[peace in steel town]

So, dd is excited to go to the home for teen moms, in her own words, ASAP. She is going there on a tour next Thursday, to see if she will fit in. Currently, there are no openings, but that may change in a few weeks. It will be a challenge for her, as they have rules, a curfew, and are expected to do chores, and she has been kicked out of a shelter before for not following rules. A friends daughter went to a similar home, and lasted one day, after getting in a fight with another girl over a sandwich. We invited the young couple over, to toast the new family member, and he didn't show. Apparently, he didn't want to get lectured, and he's afraid of me. Baffling, his mom and his aunt allowed the two of them to share a bed and bedroom for the past six months, and now are surprised that dd is pregnant! As far as dd being able to take care of a baby, we have our doubts, and may have to adopt the child down the road. Now, for my big concern. Dd has been committing welfare fraud since day one, having never handed in a rent receipt, and none to show at tax time. Once the dollar value gets over 5000, it's considered fraud over 5000, and she could go to jail. So, in the midst of the pregnancy drama, she could wind up going to jail, too. I talked to the police, and he said that they are behind in processing claims, due to case load, so this may be a ticking time bomb. Dd just dismisses my concern.   

[qcarolr]

peace in steel town,

The legal stuff is a hard one, and will take a lot of courage for you to let her experience the full force of any consequences. Can you research your areas about how rehabilitation oriented the legal system is? In our district most offenders serve a short jail time and then go into probation the usually includes counseling, community service, etc.  My DD has been given many 2nd chances, 3rd chances.

There is also a lot of community support around teen pregnancies with parenting classes, food for mom and child (WIC is a federal program - check it out. Stands for Women, Infant and Children food program), etc... She can get this even as your dependent child. Our county social services office was a good resource for what was available.

My DD had her first child a month after her 19th birthday and her second 2 years later.

Hang in there.

qcr

[radioguitarguy]

Hi KellyGirl... .

As you know, everyday we ask that same question... . Are we enabling or supporting? I wish there was a definitive answer but there's not. Each post we read about on the boards regarding our children and/or adult children is unique unto itself, which is why this is so very hard for all of us. My son, who's coming up on 30 in June, was given a dual diagnosis in his early 20's. During those years, he spent a week in jail and various short stays in psychiatric hospitals along with one suicide attempt. His anxiety is through the roof, which like all of our kids, is holding him back. He stopped taking his anti-anxiety meds because coupled with his methadone, it turned him into a walking zombie. He now handles his anxiety with THC and it works better than anything he's ever been prescribed. He's had so many jobs, I've lost count but for the last 9 months, he's been working a motor route delivering newspapers, which brings me around to the "buying him a car" situation.

For the last 5 or 6 years, he's had various beater cars that we've bought for him and they all end up in the car graveyard. Well... . over the last 3 weeks, the engine blew on his car and the transmission went on my minivan. Soo because he uses his car to deliver papers, and he's been on methadone for 3 years without a relapse, I felt he was moving in the right direction. So I suggested, and he agreed, that he should find out if he could buy a late model used car to bolster his, not so good, credit score. As it turned out we chose to come up with a $1,000 down payment along with co-signing the loan on a 2010 Hyundai Sonata priced at $9,190 which I didn't want to do because of his track record. He now has a $200 a month car payment for the next 60 months. I've always been "a glass Half full" kinda guy and burned many times because of it.

If my 30 year old didn't have a car, he'd be sitting around smoking cigarettes. Because a job gives him a sense of self worth, I thought I'd give him a chance to prove himself yet again. He makes around $250 a week and needs to hand over $100 a week to me for his car payment and insurance. He's been taking baby steps and I've decided I'm not giving up on him now. I just pray to God he's able to manage his responsibilities. He said to me the other day, ":)ad, there's a bunch of stuff about being a grownup that really sucks!" Words to ponder.

We all do what we think is right for our kids in the situation we're currently in. I wish you all the best KG with your daughter and always know that we are all here for you when you need us!

RGG

[cfh]

RGG

It's been a long time since I've been on this board but I checked in and saw your post.  I have a 29 year old that I just spent a week with (he doesn't live with us right now) and I asked him outright... . are we helping you or enabling you? We also help with his rent while he is trying to find work.

Where he lives he needs a car to find work.  Without a car he can't accept any job that comes his way.  It's such a catch 22.

So we bought him a used car and gave him a 6 month timeframe.  If he can find a job and stay employed he can keep the car.  If not we are going to have to pull the plug.

And I don't really know for sure if we can pull the plug... . we are so tortured about what to do.

I totally understand what you are going through.

[MammaMia]

cfh

Good move with the car.  Do you also pay your son's living expenses?   

Did your BPDs ever answer your question about enabling vs supporting him?  Just curious.

[radioguitarguy]

CFH

I am soo on board with your statement, "And I don't really know IF we can pull the plug." I talk tough to myself but when it comes time to make that decision, you just don't know if they are able to pull it together to make it work. I don't know about yours, but our 29 year old has intense anxiety. When I begin to think about what might happen if he doesn't have that "car" or place to stay coupled with his anxiety, I see him living on the streets in the cold and it reduces me to a big wet puddle. Are our BPD adult children playing us, CFH? I ask myself that question at least once a day. 90% of the time my answer is absolutely NOT. Your thoughts CFH?

RGG

[kellygirl601]

We did get a cheap car and hopefully this will hold out for awhile.  Honestly if she didn't have a car, it would make life hell for her dad and I.

Things have not improved a whole lot.  :'(  She is still living in a house with friends but they found out the landlord is not paying the mortgage and the house is in foreclosure.  I don't know where she will live when this is over but it is clear she can not live with us.  While on SSI they are considered disabled, however if she does work, she can keep a percentage.  What she needs is a case manager to oversee her.  My social worker friend gives me all these ideas but she is 21 so I cant do anything.  She is currently going to therapy through the county and when I suggested the case manager she said do I think she's stupid, she's told them that.  She recently told me that her therapist sent her to this "drug group" for group therapy.  I was stunned since I didn't know that was an issue.  Wonderful, one more thing.  I'm furious with her for this.  When I asked her what kind of drug group she flipped out saying I was trying to get her to tell me what kind of drug she was on, which I was.  I think that's a logical question. So MANY kids here are on heroin, its an epidemic and I am worried about that.  She said the group is not for addicts... .

Now I'm worried sick about giving her the monthly money to pay for rent and food etc.  God only knows what she is doing with it.  I feel so trapped and I don't want to be around her. 

[jellibeans]

kellygirl

I would be very concerned about whay your dd was doing with money that was suppose to go to rent and food. Is there a way to pay the landlord directly? Drop off groceries? I recently fond out my dd was smoking and I rarely give her money now. If I do I ask for the change and a recipe. Heroin ! jesus... . I won't give her a dime.

ps if the house is in foreclosure who do they pay rent to?

[kellygirl601]

She's been paying rent to the room mate that the lease is under.  Someone from the bank was at the property trying to find the owner.  The bank said the property is in foreclosure and told them not to pay the landlord anything, but to keep it in an account in case the landlord gets it out of foreclosure and sues them for back rent.  I don't believe she is on heroin.  I do think she drinks to much while out with friends.  It was bad when she was home, but at least I could see her daily and judge what was going on.  Now I don't know and I guess there's not much I can do. I get so upset because I feel she is just ruining herself.  Now it's tattoos.  It's always something. I'm not totally anti tattoo, but keep it nice, you know?  These are horrible and they just look so bad.  I just don't know how I am ever going to be able to be happy.

[jellibeans]

kellygirl

I think truly accepting your dd with all her flaws is the only way to be happy... . I don't like tattoos but it is her body and she is free to do with it what she wants. I try to be less judgemental and a bit detached... .

[kellygirl601]

Yes, I know that is true.  I just can't do it.  I work with at-risk teens and I see some of these kids come in here and I don't want that for my daughter.  She did not have to be that way.  It's like she already has strikes against her, but she just makes it worse.  I've tried the acceptance thing.  I just get tired of being embarrassed.  Not because she has mental illness, but because of the way she presents herself.  We tend not to do anything as a family because we never know how she will show up.  I don't want my parents to see her because they would be so worried and upset, and rightfully so.

[qcarolr]

kellygirl601

I so get the embarrassment with family. Most of my extended family isolated from us long ago. They could not tolerate how DD27 treated us and did not know how to reply. They did not want to hear or see my sadness and depression about it. Some did not agree with our attitudes and actions (or non-actions) with her. Some have dealt with relatives with addictions, but not BPD.

DD's rejection of the many treatment resources available to her for many years has been so hard for me. I really have not yet given up that she will pursue therapy now to get out from under her legal consequences. All I can do is gently encourage her and do my best to step back and let her fail if that is the path that she continues to go down.

Radical Acceptance is very different than feeling a need to accept the behaviors of my DD. It is about taking care of myself in the moment and discerning what is in my control and what I have little or no impact on. There is a good workshop on this "Tools: Radical Acceptance for Families".

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

If you have not visited this workshop it might give you a new perspective. Maybe it can help you figure out the money part that you CAN control - ie. pay it only directly to the landlord. It has taken my dh and I a long time to let go of thinking we can control how our DD spends any money we give her. If we want to help with rent, cell phone, food, etc. we pay the landlord (not the friend with the lease); we pay the cell phone company; we buy a grocery store prepaid card; etc. DD is at a place right now where she is able to appreciate whatever help we offer. This has not always been the case.

On the lease - it might be wise to check into finding a free legal aide office for help with tenant rights in her location. There are ways to protect yourself from being sued later. It is important to get info for her city. A search for 'legal aide' should help find this resource.

On the therapy issue, what kind of drugs she has used, etc. Your DD is an adult and these are in her control to share with you. The more I have been able to resist asking specific questions, and finding the courage to respect my DD's privacy, the more she has openly shared with me. This too is part of Radical Acceptance and the principles of VALIDATION. The TOOL at the right 'Validate the Valid' has been helpful with me. I do a refresher on this tool often.

How your parents would react to your D, if she chooses to contact them, is really up to them. They are also adults and able to make their own choices about contact with their granddaughter. They might surprise you. Especially if you are better able to separate who you are from who your D is.

This is all extremely hard work for we parents. And it takes time and TLC's (Tiny Little Steps). Be kind to yourself.

qcr