I don't trust the good times anymore.

[BuildingFromScratch]

Knowing that she was mirroring in the beginning when it was good, and knowing she was manipulative and controlling so often makes me really doubt that the good times were even real. At best, they were her being delusional and disingenuous. At worst, they were her being manipulative. I have such little trust for her that it's hard to really buy any of it.

I also find myself mourning not the relationship (I did that earlier), but what I lost because of the abuse/relationship/harassment/extreme neediness. I lost my best friend, my home, my job, many of my friends, I wasn't emotionally present for the last couple years of my Grandma's life. I wasn't all there for years of my now deceased moms life. My relationships were all damaged. I lost a lot of my hope, my passion for RPG videogames (which was my #1 passion).

[brighter future]

I’m sorry to hear about your troubles, and I hope things start to look up soon for you. Those that suffer from BPD are energy vampires. They will literally suck the life right out you and toss you aside when they’re done with you then move onto their next victim.

I’ve been through two of these relationships, unfortunately. I was married to one and in a LTR relationship with the most recent one (almost got engaged to her but I held back at the end due to her emotional issues). She was on to her next relationship two weeks later. This guy was her rebound after she left her ex husband two years ago right before we started dating.  She’s recycling him now for round two.

Hang in there and take care of yourself.

[FindingMe2011]

Knowing that she was mirroring in the beginning when it was good, and knowing she was manipulative and controlling so often makes me really doubt that the good times were even real. At best, they were her being delusional and disingenuous. At worst, they were her being manipulative. I have such little trust for her that it's hard to really buy any of it.

Would you blame a blind man for not seeing? A quadriplegic for not walking? BPD gets into EVERY new relationship thinking they will find "self", but it is fractured, and this way will NEVER help the illness. So delusional?, of course its the illness, disingenuous? I dont think so. Its a one upmanship relationship, with a persecutor and a victim. Its what the illness dictates. Its impossible to sustain a false self and this is what the Borderline would need.

I also find myself mourning not the relationship (I did that earlier), but what I lost because of the abuse/relationship/harassment/extreme neediness. I lost my best friend, my home, my job, many of my friends, I wasn't emotionally present for the last couple years of my Grandma's life. I wasn't all there for years of my now deceased moms life. My relationships were all damaged. I lost a lot of my hope, my passion for RPG videogames (which was my #1 passion).

Im sorry for your loses. I lost my father/best friend not too long ago...I couldnt help to notice, that nothing in this paragraph refers to you working on you. In fact you claim to have mourned the r/s, as if your over it, then claim the r/s cost you everything.  At some point you will need to take 50% of the blame(would this not be fair?) and find a path to ACCEPTANCE. Monetary things can be replaced. Im not so sure they were your best friend, unless he passed. This really does need to be about you. The pain you are suffering is self induced and nothing will change until you address this. I wish you well Peace

[Football2000]

I am really sorry to hear about your loss. Sometimes non BPD people are so caring and empathic that they will sacrifice themselves for the person with BPD in their life. The losses you experience are the consequences of making that sacrifice, a choice you made, and now you are taking an excellent step and that is mourning your loss.

You can rebuild, and become a happy person again. Sometimes I go out walking and I tell myself what I still have: a working body, two beautiful eyes to see the wonderful colors of the sunset, etc. I still feel sad but I know I still have many basic things in life. If I can focus and experience five or ten minutes of joy a day, I consider it a success.

I think everyone here with someone with BPD in their life will relate to making too many sacrifices. They start off with something on the border of reasonable and unreasonable and pretty soon they become way too much.

I am deeply sorry for the losses you suffered, and probably only in the hopes that it would help someone dear to you.

[FindingMe2011]

I am really sorry to hear about your loss. Sometimes non BPD people are so caring and empathic that they will sacrifice themselves for the person with BPD in their life.
Many therapists dont believe there is such a term as NONS, its a way of not taking responsibility for ones actions. We ALL played a role.
substituting CODEPENDENT  for caring and empathetic would make more sense. This statements refers to throwing yourself in front of a moving train for what? This line of thinking reminds me of Romeo and Juliet or Bonnie and Clyde... How did these r/s end? Where exactly is the caring for ones self. Or possibly this is your self? Either way this issue needs to be addressed. Peace

[BuildingFromScratch]

Knowing that she was mirroring in the beginning when it was good, and knowing she was manipulative and controlling so often makes me really doubt that the good times were even real. At best, they were her being delusional and disingenuous. At worst, they were her being manipulative. I have such little trust for her that it's hard to really buy any of it.

Would you blame a blind man for not seeing? A quadriplegic for not walking? BPD gets into EVERY new relationship thinking they will find "self", but it is fractured, and this way will NEVER help the illness. So delusional?, of course its the illness, disingenuous? I dont think so. Its a one upmanship relationship, with a persecutor and a victim. Its what the illness dictates. Its impossible to sustain a false self and this is what the Borderline would need.

I really disagree with this, obviously a person with BPD deserves some sympathy and understanding, but they are not devoid of any responsibility for their actions. It is disingenuous to completely placate to a person, it's understanding considering their issues, but it's still disingenuous. Also, what I was saying is that I simply don't trust the authenticity of it all, so the romantic things that I really cherished and appreciated feel like a sham.

I also find myself mourning not the relationship (I did that earlier), but what I lost because of the abuse/relationship/harassment/extreme neediness. I lost my best friend, my home, my job, many of my friends, I wasn't emotionally present for the last couple years of my Grandma's life. I wasn't all there for years of my now deceased moms life. My relationships were all damaged. I lost a lot of my hope, my passion for RPG videogames (which was my #1 passion).

Im sorry for your loses. I lost my father/best friend not too long ago...I couldnt help to notice, that nothing in this paragraph refers to you working on you. In fact you claim to have mourned the r/s, as if your over it, then claim the r/s cost you everything.  At some point you will need to take 50% of the blame(would this not be fair?) and find a path to ACCEPTANCE. Monetary things can be replaced. Im not so sure they were your best friend, unless he passed. This really does need to be about you. The pain you are suffering is self induced and nothing will change until you address this. I wish you well Peace

I find this whole response very invalidating, you say sorry, then move on and assume a bunch of stuff about me and tell me what I should be doing. I don't need you to fix me.

Just because I am not mentioning working on myself doesn't mean I am not working on myself. I take responsibility for the mistakes I made in the relationship, I take responsibility for staying in an abusive relationship, I take responsibility for being emotionally immature, for not having good boundaries, for not having self respect. I'll take the blame I deserve, it doesn't have to be 50%.

Yes, he was my best friend that I lived with, she destroyed our home, fought with him constantly. I shut down after I couldn't handle it all anymore, and then lost my job because I was too much of a mess to function, plus my boss was my best friend. Then I wasn't on great terms with him anymore, and the constant harassment from her caused me to have difficulty functioning. Who are you to say he wasn't my best friend? How do you know that?

I wasn't upset about losing things, I was upset about losing my passion for them. From becoming depressed, and feeling hopeless.

People move to acceptance at their own damn pace, not when someone tells them they have to. That being said I feel like I am moving forward on a lot of this and am moving towards acceptance. I know I can't recover all of these things that I lost, but I can incorporate some of them into the life I want. So I can recover some of them, if I want to.

[BuildingFromScratch]

Thanks football. I'll be fine. Hope you feel better too.

[Lucky Jim]

I lost my best friend, my home, my job, many of my friends, I wasn't emotionally present for the last couple years of my Grandma's life. I wasn't all there for years of my now deceased moms life. My relationships were all damaged. I lost a lot of my hope, my passion for RPG videogames (which was my #1 passion).

Hey BuildingFrom, I nearly destroyed myself physically, emotionally and financially in my marriage to a pwBPD, so I can relate.  You may find out, as I have, that friends and family know you better than you think they do, and it's possible to reconnect with people if you're honest about what you've been through and apologize about your past behavior.  This may sound strange, but you may also discover that all one has lost gives one a greater appreciation for what remains.  I suggest you strive for authenticity.  Get back to being yourself, who you are at your core, before you got so far off track.  Listen to your gut feelings.  Become who you are.

LJ

[BuildingFromScratch]

Hey Jim, yeah I agree, some of my old relationships may be recoverable. I haven't really decided which ones I would want to recover. The truth is some of those people that I considered friends, I would not be friends with now, because now I have more self respect and higher standards. I tended to gravitate towards narcissistic and dysfunctional people, and I don't really want a bunch of that in my life.

Yeah, I agree, I do appreciate what remains, not always, but better than I used to. I am somewhat healed already, I just had some unresolved issues on this topic, so I'm dealing with it here and on my own, and sometimes with therapy.

[FindingMe2011]

Here is an old post from a former member maybe you will find it helpful. it really explains the illness. The member was 2010, I encourage all to find his work, its quite remarkable

"The social psychology of this century reveals a major lesson: often it is not so much the kind of person a man is, as the kind of situation in which he finds himself that determines how he will act." –Stanley Milgram, 1974

If a person in a position of authority ordered you to deliver a 400-volt electrical shock to another person, would you follow orders? Most people would answer this question with an adamant no, but Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram conducted a series of obedience experiments during the 1960s that demonstrated surprising results. These experiments offer a powerful and disturbing look into the power of authority and obedience.

Why did so many of the participants in this experiment perform a seemingly sadistic act on the instruction of an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are a number of situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience. First on the list was:

* The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.

Milgram’s experiment has become a classic in psychology, demonstrating the dangers of obedience. While this experiment suggests that situational variables have a stronger sway than personality factors in determining obedience, other psychologists argue that obedience is heavily influenced by both external and internal factors, such as personal beliefs and overall temperament." Milgram, S. (1974). Obedience to authority: An experimental view. Harpercollins

The analogy in the Milgrim experiment is that if normal, non-disordered people betray their empathy for other people, in order to submit to authority- then surely there is some implication to the levels that the "authority figure" exists intraphysically in our psyche.

While we all have authority figures, (while at work, etc.)- why do our feelings about them matter to us so much that we will become maladaptive to our concept of what we know is right and wrong?  The idea of empathy really is the golden rule of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Why did so many people go against the golden rule in the Milgrim experiment- knowing full well that it might mean the same outcome for themselves?

It is the failure of empathy that really matters here and why we betray it in order to please others. In other words, why we betray people for how we falsely appear in front of authority figures. This is the basis for our "false self."

Milgrims experiment was an honest to goodness dilemma for our false selves; the persona we “want to be.” People either mirrored and imitated the authority figure and became cruel- delivering shock after shock, or they facilitated the authority as its disciple, asking questions of it while still following orders or they defended against it and just up and walked away. The latter meaning they might have committed “false self suicide” to break away. (The people who walked away, were alone and separate- yet resolved to do the right thing in spite of how they appeared to others.)

Now the question has to be asked of everyone involved: Are you thinking for yourself? or Are you following others?

Why is it that some people easily threw empathy out the window? Why did some people identify with the cruel leader? Why did some identify as a follower, and why did some refuse to identify at all? Did many of these people have personality disorders? If so, then a closer evaluation of the concept of authority and more importantly, what it means to an individual, needed to be addressed.

Obviously these people had an idea about authority. Many were raised since childhood with this cruel authority figure in their heads. What would be the differences? Would they identify with the punished or the punisher? Would they become like the punisher- with a full time persona of psychopathy? Or would they imitate and mirror the cruel leader like a Narcissist to feel more powerful? or would they be anxious and identify with both the punished and the punisher like the Borderline, trying to identify with the cruel leader but also refusing to identify with it at other times- in essence, failing to make a decision but staying and acting like an anxious slave?

What does that mean, “trying to identify with the cruel leader but also refusing to identify with it at other times?” It means that the Borderline exists with two part time selves. The Borderline has the cruel authority figure in their personality as a part time self. This part time self is punitive and punishing and exists to torture because of the Borderline’s internal torture. That torture is over the failure to separate and individuate and become “whole.” In the confusion surrounding the concept of self, the Borderline is stuck in the in-between- a dissociative state of frozen fear and continuous attempts at the perception of success. That half is ideal, and they long for that half to become whole- searching for rewarding, happy, wonderful, perfect full-time people to mirror that part-time self in the process.  That is rewarding to them- that is advancement. It never succeeds.

Unfortunately, the other half, the bad, cruel, punishing half, is just as strong as the good half. Each half is a weak and damaged self that the Borderline "borderlines" in- between. They swing like a pendulum back and forth and give the appearance of being bi-polar to some diagnostics. It is an up and down illusion.

At times, that they are caring and sweet, at others extremely sociopathic and lacking empathy. The see-saw effect is in the very heart of the tragedy of the human condition for many of us, but in Borderline it is an internal drive function.  The drive is the movement between both selves to fend off anxiety. Up, down, back, forth, left, right, black, white... .

However one might describe their underdeveloped soul, the attraction for most people is the initial mirroring and good feelings that arise from *your* empathy and concern when you are chosen as a rewarding object. You’ll want to help this person- they appear to need your help too- but only to use you (as you will find out later) in the process of splitting you into the bad authority figure that lives within them.  It is a disorder.

The effects of this rupture during the phase of separation-individuation from child development now translates into disruption of your life (and others) as you serve the Borderline as a stand-in while he/she replicates you as the cruel leader in their mind.  Your reactions contribute to your concept of sociopathic, failed empathy. “Sociopathic” because the disorder relies on your (and others) participation and your (and others) pity to become a compulsive drama. Hence, the subsequent dilemma: what happened to the nice person you once saw- and surely you can get that person to come back with your participation? That's the "socio" part of the pathology. Borderlines are Borderline with the help of other people.

Now think of the famous Milgrim experiment where people were willing to put others through extreme pain because they were told to press the button in the cubicle. That’s what you are dealing with in Borderline. The participants who obeyed the order to shock others had a failure of empathy, and a failure to pay attention to their real selves. The outcome of this is still there to be seen in so much of human behavior, but in Borderline personality it is hidden.  It is a guaranteed shock coming your way because this "physical presence of an authority figure that dramatically increased compliance" for pushing the lever to shock you is actually a MENTAL presence.  You cannot see this authority figure in their minds- you can only get blasted for it.

Your failure to get out of the way becomes your false self. They have mirrored you and you have projected upon them your good. There isn’t enough good in the World to stop the split bad part from coming back into play. You are going to get zapped.  Whether or not you are going to change this false self from repeating the process is up to you.

To quote a previous chapter: “Milgrims experiment was an honest to goodness dilemma for our false selves; the persona we “want to be.” People either mirrored and imitated the authority figure and became cruel- delivering shock after shock, or they facilitated the authority as its disciple, asking questions of it while still following orders or they defended against it and just up and walked away. The latter meaning they might have committed “false self suicide” to break away. (The people who walked away, were alone and separate- yet resolved to do the right thing in spite of how they appeared to others.)”

You can either fight back by being cruel yourself, -ask questions while still participating in the drama and allowing the shocks to continue- or  you can walk away. The people who walked away “resolved to do the right thing in spite of how they appeared to others.”

Learning about your false self and how you play along is a vital element of becoming a fully responsible human being, and of the healthy development of a Real Self.  The Real Self can step outside of the Milgrim box and see the set-up for what it is.  The false self needs more time- it is stubborn. It's worked all these years and now it doesn't.

Once you understand how you are responding with your false self to the Borderline failure of empathy-once you recognize the cautionary contra-indications you've ignored- you’ll stop ignoring them and stop participating in the back and forth of the disorder.  Eventually, you’ll stop allowing that person to apply an electric shock to you and they will go apply it to someone else. You will move beyond the symptomatic false self relationship toward your own real improvement and begin to walk the path of self-directed, self-actualized dignity.  In short, you will become a Real Self.  That begins with letting go of the outcome for the Borderline. No contact = no electric shock. Let go. Begin.

[BuildingFromScratch]

FindingMe, are you Blimblam? (I think that was his name).

[BDR]

wow that is a true eye opener - Thanks for posting it !

[BDR]

I have been involved in a men's group for over 10 years where we use a book called Wild at Heart to take men through a Journey of recovering the masculine heart that god placed in each one of us. A big part of that is exposing and getting rid of the false self or the "poser" inside . The poser is a traitor and is in opposition to God and his nature, but its a process and a Journey like peeling an onion layer by layer, That article just exposed me big time . 

[FindingMe2011]

FindingMe, are you Blimblam? (I think that was his name).

No but I like the name, kinda sums up my relations with BPD,

That article just exposed me big time .

Not so much exposed you, but maybe helped you see how ALL people hide behind their "false self" = knowledge...The exposed feeling for me, was the breaking down of my false self, which i had spent a lifetime crafting. Allowing myself to do this, once again proved to myself, that i did have the power to change this. The fear, obligation, and guilt was ALL mine, BPD just unlocked it. It would seem nearly impossible to me, to correct(curve) Codependency while in a relationship. Too many moving parts to shift blame on and most likely, depending on a PD to be my safety net? Sounds like a recipe to continue. I wish you well, Peace

[Goosey]

Ya I am damaged goods now. I assume I am in the final steps of marriage. My wife has not communicated with the courts so ... I’m pretty sure my wife has bpd but I was never privy to that information. Her shrink would never help me. I would call shaken and in high distress with another suicide threat or begging to know how to not anger her and how to communicate to avoid the rages. Was told the usual “doctor patient” line and I should seek help. Ya thanks doc I am seeking help!  
    And now it’s all splitting in black. She hates me. Spews nasty emails 100% of the time although I rarely get any emails either anymore. She is just gone.
  22 years of her twists and turns and now gone.
  I know I have posted this many times. It’s just head shaking.
I am stuck in the “what could I have done better” state.   But I am coming around very slowly. Yes it seems so sad and so confusing. Then i admit she has been lying to me for decades and that why I am financially and emotionally ruined. So I have to admit I did fail- I failed myself.  
   I have a strong desire to write a scathing letter to her therapist. That the good doc should feel responsible when my wife hurts herself or others because I was shut out. I am so angry at the “system”. There is no help.

[Football2000]

I am really sorry to hear about your loss. Sometimes non BPD people are so caring and empathic that they will sacrifice themselves for the person with BPD in their life.
Many therapists dont believe there is such a term as NONS, its a way of not taking responsibility for ones actions. We ALL played a role.
substituting CODEPENDENT  for caring and empathetic would make more sense. This statements refers to throwing yourself in front of a moving train for what? This line of thinking reminds me of Romeo and Juliet or Bonnie and Clyde... How did these r/s end? Where exactly is the caring for ones self. Or possibly this is your self? Either way this issue needs to be addressed. Peace

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you. I believe self-sacrifice brings about your own suffering, that that is not anyone's fault but the person doing the self-sacrifice. I actually believe in both sides taking responsibility, even in a BPD situation like this.

[FindingMe2011]

Hey goosey...Maybe start your own thread, Im sure it would become more helpful to you and not squeeze others...

Ya I am damaged goods now.

Life is full of problems. If you have none you are deceased. Its not the problems that are an issue, its how we cope with the problems., that is actually the problem. If you believe your problem is "Im damaged goods" then maybe create a plan to not be this. If youre not sure how to start, ask somebody, that doesnt have skin in the game. Probably at first you will need to almost force yourself to do these things. if you become stuck, as you appear now...TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I assume I am in the final steps of marriage.

Theres an old saying " To assume will get you to one place" ASS(out of)U(and)ME... To keep yourself in limbo will never get you to ACCEPTANCE. The constant wondering of which way this will turn will only cause more anxiety. This somehow needs to turn into an ACTION, not you waiting to REACT (instead of waiting for who knows how long, maybe 22 more years?) and your healing can truly begin. If an end to the r/s happens expect the abandonment depression to set in ( this is what you are avoiding) and the roller coaster ride begins again. But this time with the help of others that know,(find a T) these deep rooted issues can begin to be put in their proper place

I’m pretty sure my wife has bpd but I was never privy to that information. Her shrink would never help me. I would call shaken and in high distress with another suicide threat or begging to know how to not anger her and how to communicate to avoid the rages. Was told the usual “doctor patient” line and I should seek help. Ya thanks doc I am seeking help!  

That privilege is law, yet seems odd for you not being included to even a peep. Especially from your wife. Sounds like triangulation and many Ts will play. This is what i experienced with 2 stints of marriage counseling. It appears you were the persecutor and T was rescuer. And of course the wife was the victim (its the basis for the illness, a self persecution)...I have to ask are you seeing a T ?

And now it’s all splitting in black. She hates me. Spews nasty emails 100% of the time although I rarely get any emails either anymore. She is just gone.
  22 years of her twists and turns and now gone.
  I know I have posted this many times. It’s just head shaking.
I am stuck in the “what could I have done better” state.

This would apparently be bargaining and for a relationship that is not even available to you, for now...Maybe take 50 % of the GOOD,BAD, and UGLY and figure out how to start taking one step at a time to start marching forward? If you believe you are stuck, you are. Take this time to help YOU. Its the only way out.

Then i admit she has been lying to me for decades and that why I am financially and emotionally ruined. So I have to admit I did fail- I failed myself.

Pushing blame will help keep you from ACCEPTANCE. For me I relied too much on my "false self" for the "real world" (and why not, its worked so well in my business life) . BPD world is fantasy and that world was killing me. I was lying to myself.

I have a strong desire to write a scathing letter to her therapist. That the good doc should feel responsible when my wife hurts herself or others because I was shut out. I am so angry at the “system”. There is no help.

I suggest you write it...BUT DONT SEND IT. Give it to a T(best option) Write it on here or where ever. You will not get what your looking for,by sending it. Maybe for a moment and then you will turn on you, AGAIN. ( maybe your email exchanges proves this) It really does start with you. There is no greater help. I wish you well Peace

[FindingMe2011]

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you. I believe self-sacrifice brings about your own suffering, that that is not anyone's fault but the person doing the self-sacrifice. I actually believe in both sides taking responsibility, even in a BPD situation like this.

May i suggest you start your own thread. Sometimes people feel their talk is being hijacked in a way. You obviously have things to say ( just as myself)...If you understand that BPDers reflect like a mirror back to YOU, the information YOU sent them, to create their "self". I have to ask. Who is to blame? The blind person that cant see, or the one whom should have known better...And yes when 2 BALANCED people split, it should be amicable. These are relationships with PDs, big difference, no?

[BuildingFromScratch]

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you. I believe self-sacrifice brings about your own suffering, that that is not anyone's fault but the person doing the self-sacrifice. I actually believe in both sides taking responsibility, even in a BPD situation like this.

May i suggest you start your own thread. Sometimes people feel their talk is being hijacked in a way. You obviously have things to say ( just as myself)...If you understand that BPDers reflect like a mirror back to YOU, the information YOU sent them, to create their "self". I have to ask. Who is to blame? The blind person that cant see, or the one whom should have known better...And yes when 2 BALANCED people split, it should be amicable. These are relationships with PDs, big difference, no?

I somewhat disagree with this statement. My ex-girlfriend never took any blame and blamed everyone else. Now you are saying we should do the same and blame ourselves and not them. Almost sounds like you're getting sucked into that mindset now. Like you are trying to preserve the flawless image of the BPD person by saying they are blameless.

Obviously the only change we can make it so ourselves. Blame is not a bad thing, I blame both her and myself, I often feel angry at her and a bit angry at myself for putting up with all of it. Eventually the blame will run it's course and serve little purpose. But for now, it helps remind me that I was worth more than that, and that I need to not put up with that sort of thing ever again.

I also feel like your getting lost in the weeds here. I tell you specific things, and you kind of ignore them all and push your agenda. You have no idea where I am at. I've been working on myself for years since the breakup. Obviously we all would benefit from shedding our false self and connecting to our authentic self, but that's a bit off topic.

[FindingMe2011]

Here is some more information. I only can speak from my perspective. I once said the same words you speak. I now see the FANTASY, and yes have empathy for the illness. I had the ability to grow. My compassion for it made me stronger, not bitter. Peace


, It's not about reality. Borderline is about fantasy. It is about yearning. It is a thought disorder (a belief system) that one will find the perfect true love, the soulmate in order to fuse to and be carried throughout life, enmeshed together. In a sense it is about the entitlement of a small child who doesn't know how to grow up. The child cries and cries about being alone and then once picked up and carried cries and cries to get free. In a sense BPD's don't know how to get what they want- but between these two polar opposites is intense *yearning* which is obsessive.

What you are experiencing in the aftermath of a break-up is also yearning, but it swings from *hope* to *uncertainty* which causes obsessive thought.  :)orothy Tennov calls this the state of "limerance." Limerance is often brought into object relations theory as an infatuation for an object.

It's really about objectification of an object and what the object can do for you- but stay with me here and let me explain:

Mirroring reenacts childhood dynamics of Mother's gaze. That's when you <<feel>> most loved as an infant. Your tiny brain is growing quickly and very plastic and trying to make sense of the feelings from Mother's gaze. Our tiny brains sort out and file the feeling away where it remains until the adult brain can recall it at a later time.

When a BPD mirrors in order to attach to us, they reactivate this coda from childhood. When the BPD goes away they take with them the catalyst for the activation- and this creates a tremendous, obsessive desire for their return. Tennov calls this being in a state of limerance with the BPD being your "limerant object."

When your limerant object goes away with someone else- you obsess over the idea that you will never feel this way again *and* you maintain a vigil of hope balanced against uncertainty. The more hope, the less uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the less hope. You can see how this might create a OCD like thought process of obsessive evaluation. One can scan for clues by checking the daily barometer of the ex-partner's new relationship which only fuels the obsession. Facebook, google, etc. etc.

Comparing oneself to the new partner: are you greater than or less than? In your mind the answer gives you either hope or uncertainty and keeps you deep in the obsessive limerance toward the return of your limerant object.

Tennov did research on the many destructive tendencies of people in limerance. It's intrusive cognitive components, the obsessional quality that may feel voluntary but yet defies control are aspects of the state of limerance. Limerance is an involuntary state- so when well meaning friends and family tell you to *get over it* and just move on - they aren't addressing how to solve the infatuation that remains like a flu.

Most people suffering from limerance agreed that they might not have put so much energy into hope for their limerant object's return if they knew success was impossible from the start- but they couldn't be made to feel any other way until they realized that Borderlines LIVE in limerant FANTASY. That fantasy world is an escape and Borderlines use it to shirk personal responsibility. Limerance expects understanding (often in the form of an apology from the limerant object.) Again, this is fantasy. Do not hold out hope for one.

Realize that limerance is involuntary. It will only fade if you let hope fizzle for your limerant object's return and place a certain boundary that stops the uncertainty. Easier said than done, but necessary if you want to heal. Cry. Kick a Can. Feel terrible.  As Tennov writes: " Recognize too, that once the gates of your limerant object's mind are closed on someone else- and against you- the hope you need to fuel your own passion must run dry. With this recognition you may end your limerance and reconstruct your life."  Hope this helps. 

[FindingMe2011]

Here is some more from 2010. Hope it helps. It got me thinking about another wise saying " I have met the enemy, It is I". When one takes care of his 50% of a conflict, guess what? There is no conflict. It takes 2 to tango.

Everyone who gets involved with a Borderline gets hurt. This is an attachment disorder.  No one is better suited for the attachment than anyone else because the attachment itself is very fragile and very unstable.  What does happen though is that certain personalities think they are better equipped to handle the instability because of childhood schemas.

Diotima, If you are dealing with a Borderline, (a person with a deficient sense of self,) the enmeshment involves projection of the stronger self onto the Borderline's part time self. In other words, someone has to take the lead for the Borderline to be whole. If you are the stronger sense of self, what happens when you are in a “self-sacrificing” mode (your attention is pulled away toward a family emergency) and the Borderline feels abandoned? Borderlines tend to assume the worst, and they mistrust. This causes the separation anxiety they feel to direct drive them toward finding your replacement.

If you are not available 24/7 - then the Borderline cannot control you and vice versa. Perhaps this is what you mean by having allot in common?

If you are an vulnerable narcissist like myself, you will have to see how self sacrifice to others *other* than the Borderline is translated by the Borderline as breaking the attachment bond. That attachment bond was always shaky, even if you perceived it to be strong.

So Over It, often we have unrelenting standards and strive relentlessly to meet extremely high standards for ourselves and others - a Borderline will knock you off the pedestal with critical blame that may keep you activated for another chance at trying again- because you don't like to fail or don't want to accept false blame or get angry and react to acting out behaviors or any of the many, many defensive mechanisms that Borderlines activate in partners to create chaos and drama.

Since altruism and caring are a part of how we see ourselves (as special people) the reaction to triangulation (read definition) can make us angry and judgmental of those who we feel are trying to take our place.  We transform our aggression away from the Borderline and toward the new partner(s) while also assessing the possibility of a reconciliation with the Borderline because we believe we are special.  

When we project an idealized version of ourselves onto the Borderline we cannot help but get angry when he doesn't live up to our expectations of pure desire. In fact, it may be that our expectations are higher than other peoples and our disappointment and pain are proportional to the gap we see between Borderline fantasy and our reality.  For example, a pick-up having a one night stand will not have the same expectations of fulfillment as do our expectations of desire; true love.  Of course we are going to hold those expectations in high esteem and judge others for the lack of theirs. Instead of eliminating our expectations for the Borderline we channel our disapproval toward the other victims perceived lowered expectations, whether by thinking they deserve their fate worse than we do or they needed to be punished because they did not meet the standards that we have projected on to the Borderline.

The reality is that Borderline personality disorder is an equal opportunity abuser. This man's emotional immaturity is also responsible for his seeking variety rather than depth with women. Marked instability in interpersonal relationships is due to a false bond. Everyone suffers, even the "low-grade."  No one deserves abuse and yet no one escapes it. That makes us all equals whether we like it or not, especially when we realize that everyone ends up in the same place. Idea

[BDR]

BuildingFromScratch
your words and thoughts are so insightful - I wondered the same things . Later in my marriage I asked a friend of mine if he ever felt like he was viewed by his wife as nothing more than a provider? I felt no love or connection and was never able to discuss anything going on in my life or she would simply detach and get lost in her phone or a netflix series she had watched for the 10th time ? any experience with stuff like that ?

Finding me
 thanks for all the great stuff! I think its all what we need to hear but also need to  sip and slowly absorb it as there is so many truths and  good stuff in your posts .

Goosey
At first I took the same view with the loss of a marriage and finances as a failure  and I looked at my self as a failure , but then  realized that some of my biggest failures  actually set me free of areas in my life that I leaned on way to heavily for peace or comfort or happiness and especially free from the fear of having to have it all together all the time and be perfect.

[BuildingFromScratch]

Hey BDR, I don't recall that specifically, she definitely was extremely self centered (except at the very beginning). Would always make everything about her, ignore all of my boundaries, guilt trip me into doing things I didn't want to do, not compromise and intentionally stoke my anxieties to not be "controlled" by them.

[FindingMe2011]

Hey BDR, I don't recall that specifically, she definitely was extremely self centered (except at the very beginning). Would always make everything about her, ignore all of my boundaries, guilt trip me into doing things I didn't want to do, not compromise

Sounds a bit from the Narcissist's playbook. Borderlines actually don't have grandiose fantasies that center around the self as the center of the Universe. Narcissists do and they seek to subsume human satellites for gain. Those human satellites are very often Borderlines, as the two work around "what can you do for me/what can I do for you" actions.

Narcissists are responsible for most of the petty tyrant activity in businesses, government and volunteering- especially in Western culture where the individual is king. (Eastern cultures are more group identity.) Look at what is happening in the states today, group think. Seems to be from my perspective.

Borderlines have not been given the skills necessary to stand alone and they seek to attach by any means possible. They suffer shame and are unable to verbally communicate what they cannot internally acknowledge. This is the disorder.  Since they have not been taught that they have a right to "feel" their feelings, they attempt to hide them until the feelings become unmanageable- leading them to act out in passive aggressive game playing, creating misunderstandings and distorted perceptions and mayhem.

It's been said by many theorists that Narcissism is the tamer of the two disorders as it is fairly obvious when talking to a person with a grandiose self.  Borderlines are hidden until triggered- another reason to accept the personality as not intentionally manipulative- but reactionary.

intentionally stoke my anxieties to not be "controlled" by them.

Borderlines are victims and have the NEED, (its a part self fulfilled prophecy) to make their partner the persecutor. its a bondage r/s gone bad from her childhood. Shes just recreating it over and over. The actors just change in the fantasy and a path of destruction follows. We are the punitive parent whether we want to be or not.

[BuildingFromScratch]

FindingMe2011:

It's very common for there to be co-morbidity with personality disorders, so it's not far fetched to say she could have both NPD and BPD.

All I know is with my ex-girlfriend, she was interested in what I was interested early on, and would involve herself in my activities. Then later on that was one sided and we were always for instance watching tv shows that she was interested in, she was never interested in what I was doing. Only wanted me to be involved in her activities.

Also, she definitely had grandiose delusions sometimes to help compensate for the shame and low self worth. And often would make herself the center of attention.

I don't think you can describe someone as a script of their diagnosis either, and make them into some mathematical equation. Each person is different. I know with BPD, there is definitely a lot of patterns that do seem scripted though.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Building-

There is so much deep discussion in this thread, and I’d like to address just a few pieces.

I am so very sorry for the pain you experienced, and are still feeling.  And so sorry for the loss of your mom and grandma, and how you view yourself around your relationships with those important women in your life. 

If it’s any consolation to you, and I hope it is, your mom and grandma likely understood more about your situation than you know.  Because of the depth of your caring nature, there is a strong likelihood you are being harder on yourself than you deserve.  Forgiveness... of self.  In time, my friend.

And other relationships?  Only my opinion based on my experience.  Life lived.  (19-year marriage to a VERY narcissistic man with some BPD traits and then a more recent 6.5-year relationship with a NPD/BPD man... strong traits all around.  Pretty sure diagnosed with something at some point.)

So other relationships- yes.  That.  First when my marriage suddenly ended, certain friendships that had been in place for YEARS ended SUDDENLY.  I was no longer able to meet everyone else’s needs at the drop of a hat.  Sent shivers down my spine.  And more fell by the wayside when I didn’t snap right back as the divorce finished.

During my latest relationship, once I discovered this site in 2017, and began to learn... other friendships changed. *I* saw the light, or lack thereof in certain so-called friends.  Some had been friends simply because we’d known each other since childhood (I’m now 62).  I’ve learned “time” is no reason to stay.  Sometimes “time” just deepens the pain and gives an abuser more opportunity.  Lover or  “friend”.  Soon we all run out of time.

In some ways entering, and finally exiting these relationships, can become your blessing if you let it.  Because this pain forces YOUR pause.  You HAVE to look at yourself.  You WANT to look at yourself.  For me so so MUCH of it was anger at me.  Why did I “LET” him...?  Understand that, my friend and you will feel lighter.  The reasons may not feel so good, but your understanding and relationship with yourself will settle you.

Just a brief note about that poster name 2010.  I may be wrong, but I believe someone of authority on this site pointed out not to take that poster’s words as gospel; and that the poster (2010) is a self-acknowledged Narcissist.

More than anything, and I understand this is a difficult one, please apply the same compassion to yourself as you would to your closest friend.  It’s okay to scream at yourself in the mirror and call yourself names, but than grant the forgiveness you deserve.

The saying goes something like “life is lived forward, understood backward”.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[BDR]

its like you are reading my mail. I am saddened that the outlook is not good for my soon to be x BDP spouse - but it  shines a light on so much of my past and motivates me to move forward, I am trying to figure out if one of her parents may have it ?I know her father was a mean sob with short man syndrome has mellowed with years but still feuds  with neighbors or pretty much anyone who disagress with him and mom was enabler "oh baby I just want every thing to be happy" and much mental illness through family , What have you all found with your other side?

[Vincenta]

Hi Building from Scratch,

So sorry to hear about your experiences. 

Many of us here on this board can relate to the those well.

Now, how does your network look like - do you have any friend(s) left? Or trusted family members? or could you get a  therapist ? to support you during the difficult phase?

You have been through a lot, and it will take its time to heal!
It is just absolutely ‘ normal’ to feel sad, frustrated, angry, disappointed, desperate...
Loss of an important relationship is always hard; and especially so with such a traumatic relationship with a pwBPD.

Let yourself grieve! Let those sad feelings come, for a limited time of a day, and then let them go. Because feelings are like waves - they come and go. Let them come and go.
Moreover, please do some serious  soul- searching ( e.g. where I was perhaps too trusting? Forgiving? And why?how to set better  boundaries? What did I really seeked in the very relationship?how could I give that to myself alone?...)  - - preferably of course with a therapist.
You might want also to read about ‘ trauma bond’.

We here care, we have all here have had similar experiences and we listen.
So please stay in touch,

Warmly,

Vincenta

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey BDR-

I know we’re getting off topic, but I have a story from the “other side”.  My exBPD/NPDbf’s mother.

He is from an extremely wealthy family.  My ex is not wealthy himself (yet), but his mother was married to a very wealthy man, and other family members also have wealth.

There was an extravagant family wedding held overseas, his niece (sibling’s daughter).  For some unknown reason my BF (and I) were not invited.  My BF was very VERY upset... very hurt over being excluded.  This heightened his feelings of being an “outsider” in his immediate family, which dated back to childhood.  This wedding happened when he was about 58.  Everyone from the states was flying over for the event, including his mother and stepfather.  His long-estranged father was also attending - this was the man who reportedly beat and abused him when he was a kid; and his mother HATES the father, her ex-husband.

So several months after the wedding, my exBF and I are at his mom’s house visiting her and his stepfather.  And what does she do...?  She has my BF and me sit on either side of her and she pulls out this hard cover, large fancy photo album from the wedding... I nearly lost my breath.  That woman proceeds to painstakingly make my poor BF and me look at every single photo in that book.  She commented on each photo and expected gushing responses from us... we both delivered what we could. 

I looked at the stepfather, who had meekly tried to stop her... the sadness in his eyes was so clear to me.  He shrugged his shoulders.

I thought to myself, “My GOD... she really DOES hold contempt for her son”.  That was the night I began to see the true pain of his relationship with her.  And the sickness of her attitude toward my exBF.

So many of my exBF’s RAGES, when not directed at me, were over things his mother was doing... and then he’d RUN to her rescue.  He’d sometimes almost ask me “permission” to rage about these incidents, and I’d give him that.

She did horrid things when her husband was nearing death.

After the stepfather passed, I became more in the way, so to speak.  There were so many things that happened.

I now understand It’s called “Covert Incest”  - non-sexual.  Extreme enmeshment.  Very sick.  My exBF is very sick.  He escaped his physically and mentally/emotionally abusive father in his early 20’s.  He will never escape the binds of that woman.

This is the primary reason I let this relationship end.  I cannot be a leg on this stool. 

This is the first time I’ve cried since we broke up in February.  That woman destroyed my BF’s soul.  While he was being beaten and taking care of cooking for the family SHE created, she was fixing her makeup or out at an “appointment”.

The end.  Sorry about the hijack...I guess I need to do my own post.  It’s so hard for me to do that.  I feel no one will hear me.  Do you feel that way?  I feel dizzy and sick to my stomach.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[BuildingFromScratch]

Gemsforeyes:
Thanks for your response and condolences.

I am so very sorry for the pain you experienced, and are still feeling.  And so sorry for the loss of your mom and grandma, and how you view yourself around your relationships with those important women in your life.

If it’s any consolation to you, and I hope it is, your mom and grandma likely understood more about your situation than you know.  Because of the depth of your caring nature, there is a strong likelihood you are being harder on yourself than you deserve.  Forgiveness... of self.  In time, my friend.

I feel like I've lost something important involving my grandma and mom that I can't get back. So I think it's natural to grieve about it, and often grief contains anger and blame and guilt. In fact the main thing I've been feeling is just a sense of loss from being in the relationship, and also just disbelief and outrage over it all.

I do think I am too hard on myself, I try not to, but it's definitely something that I contend with. I think I'll learn to forgive myself, I normally do. Just gonna take time.

So other relationships- yes.  That.  First when my marriage suddenly ended, certain friendships that had been in place for YEARS ended SUDDENLY.  I was no longer able to meet everyone else’s needs at the drop of a hat.  Sent shivers down my spine.  And more fell by the wayside when I didn’t snap right back as the divorce finished.

During my latest relationship, once I discovered this site in 2017, and began to learn... other friendships changed. *I* saw the light, or lack thereof in certain so-called friends.  Some had been friends simply because we’d known each other since childhood (I’m now 62).  I’ve learned “time” is no reason to stay.  Sometimes “time” just deepens the pain and gives an abuser more opportunity.  Lover or  “friend”.  Soon we all run out of time.

It's true that losing these relationships might not have all been bad. My best friend, which I feel very upset about losing, was also narcissistic, and mean to people other than me sometimes. So, not the greatest person to be around. But he did a lot for me, and also I lost my job, my home and him all at once, and any one of those things could trigger grief and a sense of loss in a person. So it's natural that if I never got to grieve these things that I would do it now.

I know that maybe some of those relationships weren't going to last anyways, or weren't good for me. But I had a good amount of friends who liked me and to be honest, since all this happened, I haven't had many friends, or close friends. Mostly because I have difficulty trusting people, and I'm not as easy going as I was before all of this stuff happened.

In some ways entering, and finally exiting these relationships, can become your blessing if you let it.  Because this pain forces YOUR pause.  You HAVE to look at yourself.  You WANT to look at yourself.  For me so so MUCH of it was anger at me.  Why did I “LET” him...?  Understand that, my friend and you will feel lighter.  The reasons may not feel so good, but your understanding and relationship with yourself will settle you.

I dunno, I feel like I let it happen because I didn't have self respect, I was desperate for love, I was blindly trusting. But also, I think the dynamics of relationship make it hard to leave. First I got convinced we had this perfect love, because of her idealization, and my naivety. Then I got so emotionally frazzled, beat down, my self esteem was in the dirt, I felt so numbed out, and had such high anxiety that I didn't even know what the hell was going on for years and years.

More than anything, and I understand this is a difficult one, please apply the same compassion to yourself as you would to your closest friend.  It’s okay to scream at yourself in the mirror and call yourself names, but than grant the forgiveness you deserve.

The saying goes something like “life is lived forward, understood backward”.

Agreed, I'll try to be good to myself, sometimes easier said than done.