I desperately need help

[zenwexler]

Ok, So I won’t go into all of the basic details because at this point its all pretty generic. She has BPD. Untreated. We dated for roughly 8 months. We broke up last July. It has been a brutal breakup. At first I was relieved. To be finally free. I told her we couldn’t be friends. She said ok but I could tell she wasn’t really acknowledging it. She texted me a few days later and was like “uggghhhhh, I hate this, I want you in my life” So of course I crumbled and we maintained at texting relationship. I’m in Philly, she moved to New York for ballet. Once she got there everything changed. She always tried to present to me how amazing and happy she was. Which were all lies. She was miserable. She got injured and needed very serious surgery but completely kept that hidden from me.

We did this song and dance where I would say unless you want to get back together I don’t want to be friends. She would say ok, then casually text me a week later. I would ignore her then she would either call me names or come up with some crazy emergency, mind you these were “real” but she methodically saved them. The first month I tried to pull away she said she cut herself, I of course tried to help her and she was like “eh, it’s no big deal. I only did it once, by the way have you hooked up with anyone?” I was furious and blown away.  A couple days later said the same thing, cant’ be friends, then a couple weeks later same casual text, then emergency text, “thanks for wishing me good luck on my very dangerous surgery” the surgery wasn’t happening for another two months! I had no knowledge she was even injured. Then went through it again, said we can’t be friends. Same thing went down, she said “oh my god, I was in a car accident!” I then found out that the car accident was real, but small, and she told me two days after it already happened. During all this time she kept asking me if I hooked up with anyone.

She lives in North Carolina, she went home for the surgery for a couple of months. She actually ended up getting back together with her ex.  She hinted to me that they were together saying how she has to make money to pay for all her flights to go back home. I distanced myself because obviously I was hurt. I bought her a Christmas present and she made the joke, hey you should pay for my flight home, pretty much saying pay for me to see my bf. Then a month later after NC because she thought I was out of the country. She called me. We talked caught up. She was really sweet, then she went on to tell me about how all these guys are into her. How she got back with her ex, but then it didn’t work out because she was moving back to NYC but she’s already seeing this great guy in new York. She then asked if I wanted to meet him! That blew me away.

I texted her a few days later saying if you’re seeing someone then I don’t think it’s appropriate we talk. She texted me a hundred times and called me 15 times in three days. We finally talked. I told her that if you ever see us getting back together then we can remain friends. She said she NEVER sees us getting back together. I said then why do you not let me go? Why do you fight so much to keep me in your life. She told me she got over me really quickly, which is obviously a lie and never sees us getting back together, that it’s just friendly. She also said that she barely loved me, that she was still in love with her ex from North Carolina while we dated. They only dated for two months in the summer before I met her. She told me they were madly in love yet he broke up with her. This obviously really hurt. She told me she loved me 2 months into our relationship! Then a month later she broke up with me, then we got back together.  So I said ok, then we can’t be friends. Of course I wished her the best and distanced myself once again. She then texted me a few weeks later saying hey just checking in on you, I ignored it.

Then a couple weeks later she called me, I didn’t answer. I then texted her. I felt strong. Within the third text she asked to hangout. I skipped over the question just kept it casual. We’ve been texting back and forth now for the last week or so, she’s asked to hang out multiple times. The one night she texted me saying that she could live without going out to bars and stuff. She’s only been in that scene for 2 months and is already over it! Something she was obsessing over before she got there.  I was like oh no, you’re not having fun? She quickly back tracked and was like no no I am, it’s more the people I’m with. Just a weird statement to make. I think she was a little tipsy and revealed a little too much of her unhappiness to me and tried to cover it up. While we text she always calls me by full first name. She knows that only girls who love me and close family members who love me call me that. Which is true. So when she calls me that she knows what she’s doing because I told her when we were dating that its comforting to hear my full name. That I know I’m in the presence of someone who cares about me a lot.

She then came out and wanted to tell me that she wanted to “make sure” I was completely over her. I said she had nothing to worry about, she kept asking me if I was. She said she didn’t want to send mixed signals and asked me that if I had feelings for her would I let her know.  I finally said yes I’m over her. Which obviously I’m not. She then was like good good, so I guess I should tell you I have a bf.  And I kept cool and was like yeah I figured. She was surprised that I knew and was casual. Of course she asked me again to meet him, which makes no sense at all. I lied and said yeah, maybe we can do a double date or something!

This whole experience has been so disheartening. She truly only makes an effort when I pull away. I don’t know what she wants from me. I know she still has feelings for me, I mean, if she was in a happy and healthy relationship with this new guy, then there is no way I would be hearing from her, there is no way she or he would want to meet me! Just none of it makes sense. Every time I pull away she doesn’t even last a month before contacting me. These reasons are why I’m on the fence because I went to counseling. My therapist’s main goal is trying to get me to recognize that this girl is literally incapable of having a happy and healthy loving relationship and that she is a major manipulator. Which I can’t deny, even when we dated she made me put in all the work to maintain the relationship. She is very much a spoiled princess. With a very intense career path, ballet. She’s young, she’s only 20. I’m 25. She was extremely needy, she would get stomachaches frequently and would make me pinky swear that she wouldn’t throw up. She also makes her mom pinky swear that her mother won’t die, every time when she talks on the phone to her, which is everyday like 3 times a day. 

All her exes have left her. It seems like everyone eventually leaves her. Of course she acts like everything is amazing with this new guy but again, if everything was amazing I wouldn’t be renting any space in her head. I think oh man, maybe shes happy and not crazy with him, but I know that can’t be true. She’s probably just as abusive and manipulative to him as she was to me. Lets face it, if she did change then A. she wouldn’t be texting me, and B. She would probably be a lot nicer and sweeter to me rather then, “look how much fun I’m having. Everyone loves me!”  I can’t help but feel that if I wait it out and be a good friend to her. She’ll see that I really am one of the few guys that are willing to put up with her chaos. That I’m willing to stand by her, help her, work with her. When we first dated she told me that she’s crazy, and that I will want to breakup with her. It’s funny because that was the truest statement she ever said to me, but I want to stand by her. I know we can be happy together. I know there is a good girl deep down inside. I just go back and forth from saying ok, let me do this and wait it out or she’s a lost cause, she is incapable of being in a healthy relationship with anyone and was extremely abusive towards me, narcissistic, self centered, highly emotional and that she needs to mature and seek counseling.

I just wanted to add that before we broke up for good she wrote me this letter saying how much I mean to her and how amazing of a guy I am to stand by her, and that I always am the one to make things right when we fight. She also said that she thinks it's amazing that I would drive an hour and a half twice a week to see her. She would rarely drive to my place. She then went on to say though that I need to be sweeter and nicer, which is insane because her letter pretty much said how amazing I am! She's the one that needed to be nicer and sweeter to me!

She abused me so much, blaming me for every problem. I was never good enough. I used to beg her to just be nice to me. I told her that if she would just be sweet and kind to me, have sex with me (jokingly)  I would literally do anything for her. I don't ask for much.

Any insight or help would be greatly appreciated. I truly am torn. It’s like nothing I ever do is right by this girl.

[In_n_Out]

Some quick advice:

1. So much easier said than done, but if you can get a clean break and go No Contact (NC) by blocking her phone, texting, email, facebook and every other possible way of having her contact you, that would be best.  You're young and there's so much more out there than to be a full time babysitter to a pwBPD's emotions; because that is what you are or will become should you stick around.

That said, if you must, then keep these in mind:

1. Take everything that they say when it comes to you with a grain of salt.  She will project her shame/fear/anger/sadness upon you to mask her emotions.  It's her actions that will tell the true story.  She will trick you with the words, watch her actions. (Wasn't this the same advice that the wise Father told the young apprentice Father in the Exorcist to watch for when conducting the exorcism in the movie "The Exorcist"?... . hmmmm).

2. Attachments (you and others) are very much child-parent like.  It is hard for her to break those attachments because it is like asking her to leave a parent.  That is why when you push away, she tries to pull you back in.  When you try to get close, she will feel engulfed and smothered and then push you away.  You will be in an ever cycle of push-pull with her.

3. Learn to enjoy the "silent treatment" that you will get from her.  When she feels so shamed about herself, she will tell you how much *you* hurt her and she will then go cold turkey on you.  The more you plead, the more she ignores you.  When she does, take the time to focus on yourself and get your stuff squared away.  Connect with friends and keep active and healthy.  She will see that and then eventually (maybe) come back around.

4. If you just want some "normalcy" in the relationship, you wont get it. The highs will be unbelievable but the lows will be miserable and lonely.  When in a low, you wont be able to sleep because you'll lay in bed all night trying to analyze her to figure out what the hell she's thinking... . or doing... . and with whom.  Your days will be filled with moments of being ok to suddenly you are hit with a deep depression and you will suffer withdrawals (such as now).  Once things have soured in the relationship, the highs will be less frequent and the lows will become more frequent; especially if they feel that you are beginning to see through their mask.

5. Arm yourself with knowledge. Take advantage of materials here and read books about BPD.  The one book that really helped me (did I say "help?" was "Loving someone with BPD".  At least you'll get an idea of "why" but you wont understand and you won't be able to make them understand.  You will get frustrated because when things are happy and going good, she will do *something* to derail it because she will feel shame for being in such a happy place... . she will feel that she doesn't deserve that happiness and she will attempt to derail it.  You will have to learn how to help regulate her emotions to bring her out of dysregulation and as close to her "baseline" as possible.  Keeping in mind, her "baseline" is a nons state of mild agitation at best.  

There's probably more that others can chime in with.  The short answer is, run - don't walk if you can make yourself do that and if for some reason you just can't, then know that it will take a lot of work, effort, emotion, frustration and boundary setting/enforcement just to get through a day or two with her.

Good luck!

[zenwexler]

Thank you so much for your in depth response. A part of me wants to run but I still do truly feel like she still cares. You say watch her actions not her words. Her words say I don't want to be with you but her actions say please stay in my life. So the fact that I believe she still has feelings for me is what keeps me around. But it hurts because she is dating someone else. She tries to flaunt it to me. The other day she said sorry for the delayed response. I was eating dinner then had a loong phone call. Insinuating she was talking to her new bf. I mean when she does things like that it just screams to me that she's not over me. I mean if she was in a happy and healthy relationship I would not be hearing from her!

[diega]

Thank you so much for your in depth response. A part of me wants to run but I still do truly feel like she still cares. You say watch her actions not her words. Her words say I don't want to be with you but her actions say please stay in my life. So the fact that I believe she still has feelings for me is what keeps me around. But it hurts because she is dating someone else. She tries to flaunt it to me. The other day she said sorry for the delayed response. I was eating dinner then had a loong phone call. Insinuating she was talking to her new bf. I mean when she does things like that it just screams to me that she's not over me. I mean if she was in a happy and healthy relationship I would not be hearing from her!

well, if u want to know what's most likely in it for you if u ended up with this person go read the posts for the people that have stayed  and are trying to cope. it's very difficult and does not sound fun at all. in no out is right--if u could no contact would be best. i would run if i were you! easier said for me cuae i'm done with the BPD exbf.    the question I might be asking isn't why is she doing this... or does she still like  you etc etc...   but what is it in you that makes you want to stick around for someone who already is involved. with someone else.?

Whether she is happy or not, the red flags are screaming that she is not a happy or healthy type of person. 

[zenwexler]

Because I think we could potentially have an amazing relationship together. Especially now that I know she has Bpd. And every time I go nc she hunts me down. We both wont let each other go. And I guess I disregard her relationship because again I know she has to still care. I mean no one fights that hard to keep a "friend" in their life.

[zenwexler]

Thank you for replying. It means a lot.

[diega]

Because I think we could potentially have an amazing relationship together. Especially now that I know she has Bpd. And every time I go nc she hunts me down. We both wont let each other go. And I guess I disregard her relationship because again I know she has to still care. I mean no one fights that hard to keep a "friend" in their life.

no offense to you, but just cause she 'hunts you down' after NC does not mean she 'cares.'  its part of the BPD.

my mom does not care at all. she is cruel and almost inhumane but yet when i  was gone she tried to get me back. it wasn't cause she cared.  i'm just saying that this pattern of 'charming'  (which is the term used on these boards when the BPD tries to get you back after nc or little contact)... that does not mean caring from the BPD.  one could argue taht she may care still or ahtver... thats fine... but all i'm saying is that the charming thing does not mean caring.   have you read the other posts on the other boards?    anyway. good luck.

[woodsposse]

I'll make my reply even simpler.

what do you want?

do you want to be on the roller coaster or not?

she has shown you exactly who and what she is. Either you want to be in it or not.

it is that simple.

best of luck in whichever way you go... . but always remember, your happiness starts and ends with you.

[zenwexler]

Honestly. I know if I stay I'm in for a roller coaster ride. Even when I have simple day dreams about us doing fun stuff my still includes me saying things like what's wrong ok. I'm sorry. Sure. We can do whatever you want. So it's already ingrained in me. But I want another chance with her. I want to put the lessons I learned into action. I mean we've been broken up all this time and I have dived into these blogs and forums. I have even read books. I'm trying so hard to do everything I can. Just nothing seems to work with her. She just always has me running in circles with my head cut off. I just want one more chance to see if things would be different. And in the end if BPD is really bad as it seems to be. Then most likely her relationship will fail with this guy. Just like her past ones. And better believe they don't care enough to sign up for this blog. To read books on BPD. To do anything they can.

[woodsposse]

So you say you know if you go back it will be a roller coaster... . but you want to see if this time it would be different?

how does that work?

[zenwexler]

Well I guess my hope is that with my understanding of BPD the roller coaster ride won't be as bad

[In_n_Out]

If you want a journal of what the roller coaster ride would most likely be like with the triangulation and your new knowledge, read my threads entitled "R/S advice, BPD style". 

[woodsposse]

Well I guess my hope is that with my understanding of BPD the roller coaster ride won't be as bad

I'm not trying to be flippant or rude - but you already know what the ride is like. 

My question to you is - know that you have an understanding of what BPD is from the boards... . but you already know what your S/O is like in her disorder... . why do you think going back to it will be any different?

[zenwexler]

I don't think you're being rude at all. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. And I think things may be different because I'll be better equipped. I'll be able to manage my emotions better and not get so bitter and resentful of her behavior because I know she doesn't mean to. I also think that we both were in such stressful situations when we dated and that now we both may be in better places.

[woodsposse]

Just because a person has a disorder, doesn't give them a right to treat you however they want.

Just because you may feel you are better equipped with information regarding the disorder... . why do you have to handle your emotions when someone... .

Look at it like this.

I know that some people in our society have had it rough.  They may be out of work.  They may be on drugs.  They may be desparate.  Okay.  That explains their situation.  But does that give them the right to come at you with a weapon, rob you - beat you up - take out their frustrations on you?

And just because you know that they may be acting on things that may be beyond their control... . you mean to tell me that if one of these drug fueled idiots came at you with a gun to get your money to go buy drugs it would be okay with you simply because you can "understand" where they are at?

Come on... . really?

[zenwexler]

I mean you're absolutely right. I just empathize with her. I feel bad. I put up with a ton of abuse from her. Now doubt about that. But I don't know. I want her in my life and I know she wants me in hers. This has been a brutal situation. I don't take this lightly at all. It sucks. Not only is the girl that I care about most hijacked by BPD but she's also in a relationship. It's a double edged sword.

[woodsposse]

My friend,  I can't - nor would I suggest doing one thing or the other.  I'm just trying to point out the obviousness in what you are saying.

You say she wants you - but she is with someone else.

You say you want to be with her - but she abuses you.

You empathize with her - but she abuses you.

Make no mistake - she isn't hijacked by BPD.  It's not like she was "normal" and got bit by a radioactive spider and became BPDWoman.  This is who she is.  She has shown you who she is. Unless she gets serious long term therapy... . this is who she is.

So your choice is clear.

Be with someone who abuses you - or don't.  There is not middle ground.  You can't "talk" them out of anything... . you can't even 'love' them out of anything.  That's like you trying to talk me out of being tall.

I'm tall.  I was born tall.  I'll always be tall. 

Now... . if you were in a r/s with someone who had a diagnosis and wanted tools to try and make the r/s work... . there is an app for that (well, a link, anyway).

But that is something totally and completely different than what I'm discussing.

Please re-read what you are writing and see if you find your own set of comments which are diametrically opposed to one another.

remember... . you are in control of your life and your life only.  If you want good in it (which mostly all of us do)  then that is up to you.  Your happiness starts and ends with you.

[zenwexler]

I know you're right. Trust me. I do. I'm just hopeful that things could be different. And that in time we could even go to counseling together. I mean she has bf yet she texts me all the time. So how nice can she really be? I get it. I do. And that's a good comparison about being tall. But you really don't think things could be different at all? Even after all her bfs leave her? You don't think she will realize that I'm the only one that stands by her besides her immediate family?

[diega]

I know you're right. Trust me. I do. I'm just hopeful that things could be different. And that in time we could even go to counseling together. I mean she has bf yet she texts me all the time. So how nice can she really be? I get it. I do. And that's a good comparison about being tall. But you really don't think things could be different at all? Even after all her bfs leave her? You don't think she will realize that I'm the only one that stands by her besides her immediate family?

[/quote

i meant 'charming' in my other reply not '[charming"  . what was i thinking when i wrote that?

yes... . i was going to write things ssimilar to woodsposse but i feel you already have your mind made  up. so live and learn.  it doesn't make sense to us who have been there and the signs seems so obvious... . but i guess without expeiencing the utter total hell BPD can be... . i guess you want to try it out anyway.  i feel no amount of logic or anythng anyone says will sway you.  and it's your journey of course. 

[woodsposse]

But you really don't think things could be different? Even after all her bfs leave her? You don't think she will realize that I'm the only one that stands by her besides her immediate family?

Nope.

[zenwexler]

I just feel like i can't win with her. She says she wants to be friends but she's not very nice. She asked if I was seeing someone and wanted to know all the details. She then wanted to tell me about her new bf and was like or is it a sensitive subject. And to be honest, she wasn't being nice. She just wants to see how I react. She told me that he's super chill and is exactly what she needs. He balances out her nerves. I mean can that be true? Is she actually sweet and nice to him or she just as mean and demanding as she is to him? Because as soon as she said that she ended the text by saying so will you add me on facebook? Which she has asked me to do a hundred times since unfriending her. She's so relentless. If this guy is so amazing why is she texting me?

[woodsposse]

I just feel like i can't win with her. She says she wants to be friends but she's not very nice. She asked if I was seeing someone and wanted to know all the details. She then wanted to tell me about her new bf and was like or is it a sensitive subject. And to be honest, she wasn't being nice. She just wants to see how I react. She told me that he's super chill and is exactly what she needs. He balances out her nerves. I mean can that be true? Is she actually sweet and nice to him or she just as mean and demanding as she is to him? Because as soon as she said that she ended the text by saying so will you add me on facebook? Which she has asked me to do a hundred times since unfriending her. She's so relentless. If this guy is so amazing why is she texting me?

May I be frank?

Why are you so concerned?

She isn't nice to you.  She abused you.  You don't want to friend her - or befriend her.  She is insensitive with her boundary busting.  And, even broken up, is making you self doubt.

What exactly is the dilemma?  It's like you are looking for validation as to why you should jump back on the crazytrain and drive it straight into crazy town.

I can't speak for anyone else... . nor would I suggest you go one way or the other (stay vs leave) - but... . really... . even in your posts you are oscillating back and forth and back again and I can't participate in validating your intentions (one way or the other) if you don't know what they are.

So... . I ask again - what do you want to do?

Your happiness starts and ends with you.  We are all here for you.  Can you be here for you? 

[zenwexler]

You're right. Everything you say is on point. What I truly truly want is a another chance with this girl. Perfect scenario would be that I do what is necessary to move on but also in doing so strengthening my relationship with her. I want to move on, but the thought of just waving good bye and never talking to her again makes me extremely sad. I can't help but feel that we both want each other in our lives. Even if she does abuse me and treat me poorly. This has been an extremely difficult journey. I can't help but laugh sometimes after I wipe away the tears. I mean, I've been on the internet from the moment it has existed back with AOL 3.0. NEVER have I ever signed up on a forum or blog or anything. In fact, whenever I read blogs or comments on other sites I always think to myself, who actually signs up an account and takes the time to write stuff. And here I am. Grateful that a site like this even exists filled with people that actually care enough to help.

[woodsposse]

Healthy people do not accept abuse.

[Finding_Ground]

I agree with Woods

[zenwexler]

it's funny, a part of me is actually scared to be her friend because with the off chance that she manages to be nice and a good friend it would only make me sadder that we're not together. It's almost like every time she abuses me it's more reassurance that she does have serous issues

[changingme]

I'm just hopeful that things could be different. And that in time we could even go to counseling together. I mean she has bf yet she texts me all the time.

Hi again Zenwexler,

Before I knew about BPD I used to be think this same way all the time; being very hopeful that if I could just get him to see things differently, get him to therapy, get us to therapy together, etc.  Then, like I have mentioned to you, I finally learned about BPD years later.  And GUESS WHAT I DID? I remained hopeful, if I could just get him to see BPD, get him to therapy, get us to therapy together., etc.  And it wasn't the countless recycles or the things he may have done that hurt me the most, is that I believed in a hope more than I loved my own life and sanity.  As time went on I started asking different questions.  Even if I was able to pull him back from his gf... . did I really want to turn those tables, becomes his current girlfriend while he texts his ex all the time?  I had so much hope in my vision that I hadn't even realized that I eventually became "the other woman" 

[zenwexler]

So there is just truly no hope? We can't be friends? I'll never be able to "get her back" She'll always just take and never give? She'll always be up and down nice and mean? It's not me she does it with everyone? I mean these pills are just so hard to swallow.

[changingme]

Nope... . nope... . nope... . yes... . yes... . yes... . and yes it is very hard to accept and I'm sorry you are in this situation that you would need to accept such an unjust thing in your life.

[zenwexler]

Lets just say I do want to detach from her.  Although I admit I lack the strength at the moment do I just stop? I just go NC? I mean we've just spent the last two weeks catching up and rebuilding our lines of communication. We have been through this cycle like 5 times already. She's going to start to think I'm the crazy one!

[woodsposse]

Lets just say I do want to detach from her.  Although I admit I lack the strength at the moment do I just stop? I just go NC? I mean we've just spent the last two weeks catching up and rebuilding our lines of communication. We have been through this cycle like 5 times already. She's going to start to think I'm the crazy one!

To answer the question directly (and in my opinion) - yes.  If you want to detach then going NC is what you should do.  There are a lot of great readings out there (and like the ones linked on the right hand side of the page)... . but, as my therapist had suggested (which I finally listened and followed) - give yourself some distance to gain a clearer perspective.

No one would think you are crazy for doing something that is actually healthy and sane for yourself.

It is difficult to see the forest when you are surrounded by the trees.

But what I find even more interesting is you say you have been through the cycle 5 times already.  What give you a thought that if you cycle to number 6 that it would be any different?

The true definitaion of insane is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.  This is not to say, by any means, that you (or her) are insane.  But you are caught up in a dance, albeit destructive, and you want to stay on the dance floor.  Which is fine - if that is your choice.  But just know that that is what is going to happen.

If you are fine with it, then you are fine with it.  No one here is going to suggest to you to do anything different than you want to do.  But I will say this, mostly all of us have been exactly where you are - and it isn't a great spot to be in (so I can definitely feel you pains).

Just know that there is a better, calmer, stable, happier way to be... . if you chose it.

[zenwexler]

Thanks for your continuous feedback woods posse. My therapist told me that she is incapable of being in a loving mutual relationship and that she is extremely manipulative.  He pretty much yelled at me to just pull the plug and leave. He told me that it's time to be mature and realize that I was involved with someone who literally is incapable of being in a healthy relationship. Like I mentioned before it's just a tough pill to swallow. I'm a fighter. I fight for things I want and quitting is not something that comes easy for me. No matter what it is. I think that is why it's so hard for me to let this go. And you're right. It is the same song and dance every time. I say we can't be friends. I say sweet things like i'm sorry it has to be this way, I love you, I hope for the best for you, blah blah blah, she literally says nothing except like ok, see ya later. We don't talk, she'll eventually text me. i'll ignore her, then she'll text me again and I cave in. I've mentioned earlier I stick around because her actions tell me she still cares about me, that she still wants me in her life, her words say just friends, but her actions scream don't leave me! So yes, this has by far been one of the worst experiences of my life. I'm grateful it happened because i know my next relationship, either with her or someone new will benefit from all of the lessons I have learned. But right now I can't help but feel like I'm stranded in the middle of the ocean.

[woodsposse]

Do me a favor.  Just keep repeating this line you just wrote... . tell me when it makes sense:



I stick around because her actions tell me she still cares about me,

[zenwexler]

I know what you're saying,  I just mean that her actions say i still care about you and don't want you to leave. Yes they are surrounded by her talking down to me, being abusive and passive aggressive, but none the less we broke a while ago and she has not let me go. And I fully admit I have not let her go either.

[woodsposse]

I hear what you are saying - and I know, at some level, you hear what I'm saying.  Maybe one day it will click in to it's fullest - but for now, just know you are not alone.

It is a very rough spot to be in.  Knowing that someone treats you like they don't care - and telling yourself that they way they treat you is that they care.

It certainly is crazy making behavior.  The more I learn about the disorder, the more I concentrate my sharing here with those who are being hurt and displaced by it.  It saddens me the effect it has on you (and had on me very strong for so long).

For me... . I'm glad I detached.  Yes, it was very very difficult to do (after almost 20 years with her... . that's a long long time).  But, once I did I realized the pure insanity I was in and allowed myself to be in. 

Then it hit me like a ton of bricks (well, a ton of feathers... . but that's a different story).  I finally heard what people here on the this board were saying to me.  I finally heard what my therapist was saying to me... . and I finally looked at myself.

It was no longer about her. 

What was it in me that I was getting out of such a r/s?  I had to be getting something out off it.  I mean, healthy people don't typically stick arorund for such abuse.  But I did - and called it normal.  The journey I went on to find that answer lead me to the peace I have today.

Now it isn't a matter of being NC.  It is a matter of "Why would I want to communicate with her?" 

But that was my journey.

And the light at the end of the tunnel wasn't another training heading towards me.  It was the peace I was looking for.

So maybe you can focus a little of your energy on you.  I'm sure wherever it takes you... . you will be there when you get there.  And I truly hope whever that is... . you will be at peace.

[zenwexler]

I mean i have it in my head that maybe she's changing. She moved to new york, she's going to like yoga and church. I can't help but think maybe she's more stable. But I don't know. Again. I guess she can't be because if she was then she would probably be nicer to me and probably wouldn't be texting me. This is all just so confusing. It's like I rather her be mean and nasty because it proves she's just not a nice person.

[zenwexler]

Like right now she's being all sweet and playful. It just gets in my head so much.

[woodsposse]

Like right now she's being all sweet and playful. It just gets in my head so much.

Please understand.  She is who she is.  What she has shown you is exactly who she is.  There is no changing it (not without deep and long therapy).  So, just because you think you see something different - you don't.

Again... . I'm tall because I'm tall.  There is no changing that.

THis is  not to say that you can't work with tools to have a better relationship - but if you hoping for a change... . after how many go arounds?  Forget about it.  Not gonna happen.

I'd rather see you spend some time to focus on you.  This is about you.

Let me repeat this for you... . this is about you.

Be happy.  And your happiness starts and ends with you.

(Just keepin it real)   

[zenwexler]

I know I've thanked you a ton already but I am appreciative of your continuous feedback woods posse. So even though right now she's being all happy and fun and playful it's all a front? It's all temporary? There really is no having a happy life with this girl? Even on the staying board people are telling me to leave her behind.

[woodsposse]

Well, I won't go so far as to tell you to leave - and I equally won't go so far as to say it is a front.

What I will say is... . and you have to take a step backwards to view the "big picture" when I state it... . ready... .

What you already know of her is what and who she is.

I'll say it again.

What you already know of her - the way she is in a relationship (with you in particular) is who she is.

I don't know what you think is going to or can change... . there is nothing to change.  It is who and what she is.

Her being happy and fun and playful is who she is just as when she is raging, lying, cheating, demeaning, invalidating and whatever else you have gone through with her.

she has already shown you time and time again exactly who she is.  What don't you see?

Now... . if and when you can wrap your head around that -- then, and only then can you see exactly where you are and exactly who you are with.

If you are willing to "take the good with the bad"... . more power to you.  But if you are expecting her to change into something she isn't... . well... . that's where this board comes into play so we can maybe help you focus your energy and attention on... . (say it with me)... . YOU!   

[zenwexler]

I guess I just believe that I can now be a better person in our relationship. That I can make things easier, manage and minimize her chaos. And the fact that she appears to be happy and pleasant gives me that feeling that maybe it is possible. And I do focus on myself. And I admit she didn't add much to my life. And she wasn't very supportive and loving. I just keep thinking maybe things will be different. We both met under very stressful situations. I'm thinking maybe life will be better with her this time around. But I hear you. Loud and clear. Still hard to digest and fully internalize.

[woodsposse]

I totally understand how difficult it is.

But at the end of the day - even if you re-read the last post you just wrote... . you are bouncing all over the place.  Trust me, I have been there. We all have been there.

Whatever decisions you make in your life, you should be at a calm, peaceful place in which to do it.

You can not fix anyone.

You can not fix a relationship.

Maybe you can bring a better you to where ever you go... . but she is who she is.

Not sure how much plainer I can make it for you.

She... . is... . not... . going... . to... . change.   Ever.

You can't help her change.  And... . the only way she will "change" is if she wants to (and with a lot of professional help).

So... . we keep coming back to you my friend.  This is about you.  It has always been about you.

Even when your r/s started... . it was about you.  THrough all the ups and downs and recycles and pain... . it was about you.

So... . make it about you now.

If you want the crazy making behaviors and pain and anguish and devaluing and lying and cheating... . by all means, stay.

Because if you "get back with her"... . that is what you will get. 

Just keeping it realz!   

[zenwexler]

Will I ever just fully accept the fact that I can never truly be happy with this girl and just move on with my life? And that obviously she hasn't changed that much considering her recent behavior. It's like I'm refused to admit that she's incapable of having a healthy loving relationship. It's what my psychologist keeps trying to get me to admit and accept. But for some reason I refuse.

I do make it all about me. I blame myself. I say If only I did this, if only I did that. I make excuses for her. I convince myself that she's changed, happier, calmer, more pleasant, but again said this a thousand times, if she was she wouldn't be interacting with me the way she currently is. But instead I convince myself otherwise. I start to feel bad for her, knowing she doesn't do this on purpose. when I go no contact and she begs for my attention I feel like a father whose teaching his baby to self soothe. I think to myself, I know babe, I love and miss you too. I go to her, she stops crying and is like uhhh, I'm fine. I don't need you.  Again her actions scream to me DON'T LEAVE. YES I"M DATING SOMEONE ELSE BUT PLEASE DON"T LEAVE. I"M INCAPABLE OF ADMITTING HOW MUCH I ACTUALLY MISS AND CARE ABOUT YOU.

So again round and round I go. When she's mean and nasty, I'm sad, but I take comfort in it knowing she hasn't changed and is "crazy". When she's sweet and nice I go OH NO, maybe she has changed. I messed up, I made so many mistakes, she's the one that got away and freak out. It's exhausting. I truly want to get on with my life. I want to stop crying. I want to stop self-loathing. I used to be such a confident person until I met her. Now I question every step I take. Every sentence I speak. It's been a miserable existence.

I spend more energy trying to convince myself that I'm the one that did all the wrong's, that if I was a better person our relationship would have lasted. But deep down inside I know I did as much as I could, she never met me half way. I was always so exhausted. So fried. And I convince myself, things will be different, she'll meet me half way now, because now she's happier, calmer, sweeter, loving, and i'm a better person because I have read books on BPD, so I'll be able to manage better. Or I think  man, is she really happy with that guy? Is she any different? Is she trying harder?

But it's all lies. All lies I spend so much time trying to convince myself.

[woodsposse]

I totally understand what you are saying and where you are at. It isn't easy.

But what I mean about it being about you... . I mean - you without her.

Don't "make it" about you (did you do the best you could, could you have done better, so forth and so on)... . because that isn't about you.

What I mean is... . what is it that you need to let you see why this has you so tied in a knot.  What do you need to be happy.

I'm not as 'schooled' in the disorder or which tools/readings may be available for you (yet... . I'm getting there) - so all I can do is share with you what I know from where I was.

Bottom line is this.

If you make yourself available for her at this point you will be reeled back in but nothing will change and it will be worse for you.

You need to get to a point where you can focus on you.  Your healing.  Your understanding of why you would allow yourself to be in such an abusive relationship.  It obviously isn't because you are getting love and support.  But it is something.

For me... . the journey led me back to my FOO.  And I finally understood why I would stay in such relationships (and I was able to finally break the cycle and am much much happier now).

To be honest... . I don't even miss my ex.  I don't wish her ill and and don't want her to be sad... . but, I barely think about her and our r/s any longer because even if it were available to go back into that crazy environment I wouldn't because it was a crazy environment and I'm much more healthy than to voluntarily be abused.

Hopefully you can get there as well.  Because what you describe is abuse, plain and simple.  So it is up to you if you want to be abused and unhappy... . or focus on you and be happy.

[bungenstein]

Hi zenwexler,

I am in exactly the same position you are in.

I dumped my ex and she went on the rebound and has been shoving it down my throat ever since. I do believe I was the person she 'cared' about the most because I am the only person to ever leave her, and she tried the most ludicrous lies, and ridiculous tactics to get me to stay. Previously she has normally jumped from person to person because she gets bored very quickly, I know because I know some of the people she's dated.

It does seem to me that some people trigger them more than others. She fully admitted that she'd rather be with someone she wasn't into so much, because she wouldn't behave so crazily, she hated acting so crazily, and just wanted to be at ease, she tried to pull away from me a lot in the beginning but couldn't, she said she wished she'd never met me because I'd become an addiction that was bringing out the worst in her, and now she was stuck.

I had to trick her out of my house, she then tried to get back with me for another month, until she deliberately tried to track me down and crash a night out I was having, I told her to leave me alone and said I knew what she was doing.

She then went and got someone else immediately, someone who seems to be the person she was describing when we met, someone to fill the void, someone who won't trigger her so much, a placeholder for her pain, someone she doesn't want to be with but HAS to be with, like having a colostomy bag.

She has tried to meet up with me twice whilst being with this new person and I declined because I wasn't prepared to put him or I in that position, I said only if you are single will I consider it. Whilst also giving me the same I'm so happy, I'm so over you, the new guy is perfect, I never loved you, you are scum... . of course this is nonsense, otherwise she wouldn't be contacting me and trying to meet up, they have been going 3 1/2 months now, and only a few days ago she downloaded a picture of ME onto her phone from my website, who does that if they are happy with their new boyfriend?

The fact is the replacement, is out of neediness of filling that void, and a punishment towards me, I have been rejecting her for a long time now, even though I did love her, I wasn't prepared to have that kind of relationship. She is never going to leave him and then try again with me, because she assumes I don't care about her enough, and risking losing her replacement is just unthinkable, so she'll have to make do. What she wants is for me to guarantee I'm going to be back in a relationship with her first, and only then will she leave the replacement. Now whether her 'love' for me was real or not is another debate, but certainly from what I've seen I've been the only person she hasn't ditched and never once did she stop adoring me, she was abusive in ways to direct my attention towards her, and in her mind to make me love her more, and her rages were inexcusable, but her life was devoted to me and she did everything she could for me.

The problem is I too think, if I could just rid this demon from her life we'd be perfect together, but I can't. I know that if we got back together I would have to deny my real self and accept behaviour and a relationship that was totally against my outlook on life, I would have to carry on being embarrassed by her behaviour, having to feel like I am nurturing someone, and teach them everything about life, and walk on eggshells for the rest of my life, I won't ever have the connection I truly desire with someone who's brain is on Planet Zorb, I would have to carry on knowing this person won't ever be what I really want in a partner, I would have to sell myself short, and the only reason I would do this is out of fear that I couldn't do any better. I have to build my confidence back up and so do you because at the moment the only thing standing in the way of having someone you care about even more is ourselves, and I've always known this, but tried to deny it.

So do I believe she still 'adores' me? Yes

Will she still be abusive because of her fear? Yes

Will I ever have a healthy relationship with her? No

Do I still love her? I love her in same way she loves me, not in mature way.

And that's all there is to it, its a really s*** situation.

I take pride in that I had such an effect on her, and that I haven't dropped from her mind, and the moment in time that we had together was wonderful and heart breaking at the same time, that I've learnt so much from it, and I've become a much better person as a result, but the relationship is a tragedy, and always will be, and thats part of life, at least I can take creative inspiration from it as an artist and that in itself is invaluable to me, I didn't regret a second of it and she's built my character to end, whilst I look around my peers and see just how mundane their lives have become, now that I've gotten through this I can strive for the stars, and so should you!

[zenwexler]

Thank you all for all of your feedback. I sincerely mean that from the bottom of my heart. I'm going to be posting a new topic shortly. I think I'm starting to get it. That unfortunately no matter how much I wish and pray that having a happy and healthy relationship with her is virtually impossible. And the fact that I would even want one with her is equally an issue.

[zenwexler]

So after spending almost everyday on this amazing forum with you amazing people and months of counseling I'm willing to accept reality. I have been living in a fantasy world that my ex will change. That with moving to New York, having a few extra friends around her, some yoga and church she'd suddenly be the sweet loving and caring person.

Talking to you all and my therapist I realized that this just isn't the case. That not only during our relationship but equally afterwards she clearly demonstrated that she is highly manipulative, abusive, and incapable of love. It's a heartbreaking realization but true none the less. I kept rationalizing and making excuses for her behavior but its time for me to move on.

My therapist said you MUST recognize how sick this girl is. And recognize how sick you are to even want a relationship with her. That if I was in a better place I would have never been in a relationship with her in the first place.

He asked what my biggest fear was. I told him that she would change and be happier and a great person without me.

He replied that I'm afraid that that "apple" will one day ripen? And that I'll never find a another one? He called me out and said that's an irrational fear. I then asked him if he thought her "apple" would ever ripen. He was dead serious when he said this. He's a no bull ___ kind of a guy. He Said he thinks she is rotten to the core.

Which I admit does sadden me.  I'm starting  to recognize that she truly will never be a caring loving person. I know how hard it is to change. And unfortunately the average person in the world don't change casually without a lot of hardwork.

My therapist said that with BPD. It's virtually impossible to ever live a happy and healthy lifestyle.

It's funny. He made sense of all her actions. How she manipulated me, how she never answers my questions about why she won't let me go. how she breaks me down, tells me she doesn't want to be together but refuses to let me go and never leaves me alone. Wants to know about my love life. Not becAuse she cares. But because she wants to know if I'm still available. Before we broke up she told me she would love to break up date other people then get back together later in life. Of course later down the road she said she doesn't feel that way anymore. But again her actions prove otherwise. I know she loves me. I know she wants me in her life. And I know a part of her would like to come back to me in time.  And I know she struggles to let me go. Because if she wanted to. Or could. She would have long ago. Especially after moving and dAting.  And I take comfort in that. I truly do.  Her words say no love but her actions scream I CARE. I LOVE AND MISS YOU!

I used to have anxiety about that I wasn't good enough. That I wasn't strong enough. That all her other exes broke up with her. Why did she break up with me? I learned from her old roommate that she abused all her exes full force just like me. She told me that she thought it was awesome how I would actually take a stand to her. That I wouldn't back down. That her exes never did that.

It makes so much sense. She left because  I didn't put up with her crazy. I challenged her. Pushed her to see reality and grow. And she didn't like it. I also realized that I wanted to break up with her multiple times. She just always dooped me to stay.

i would have been the third bf to break up with her in 1.5 years. It makes so much sense. And she broke up with me because once upon a time I was stronger. Higher self esteem. Not an easy target. I take comfort in that as well

It's always natural to fear when an ex gets a new relationship she's going to be amazing and happy and healthy with them and get married. Again her actions towards me prove to not be the case. I used to worry. What if her next relationship lasts? I realized if it does that just means this "laid back" nice guy from Hawaii is just giving her whatever ever she wants. That he's just catering to her everyday needs. And lets be honest. There is a ton, and most likely she's not really meeting his needs. So again. In the low self esteem state I have currently i take comfort in that as well. That shes abusing this guy just as much as she did all her bfs. No matter how great he is. And that if he lasts. It's because he's waved the white flag while she goes for the throat. I'm sure one day when I'm stronger I'll feel bad for him. But again. I take comfort in knowing that she's kind of doomed. I fully admit that. But hey. Anything that helps me sleep at night I'll take it.

I used to beg her. Just be nice to me. Give me some sex. And I'll literally do anything for you. ANYTHING. She couldn't even do that. All I ever asked was for some love. But she's selfish. Narcissistic and self centered. Even when she described her new bf it was selfish. He balances out my nerves. He's what I need.  All very self centered needy statements.

So I know the journey ahead is tough. I feel strong right now but I know I'll feel low at times as well. I'm going to ATTEMPT to maintain a friendship.

She's lost. She's scared. She's alone. Even in a relationship. She's unhappy. She always will be. And I'm going to support her to the best of my abilities. I want to be a strong enough person where I can handle anything thrown my way. And who knows. Maybe when she realizes how sad and alone she truly is we can try again. But I know that if I stick to the right path, that even if she would want to. Id be strong enough and healthy enough to recognize that that would not lead to a happy and fulfilled life.

I still do wish the best for her. I want everyone to be happy and in love. I know I have my problems. We all do. And I don't say this lightly, or for a self esteem boost. But I am the most loving and caring person I know. I know that any girl would be lucky to team up with me in life. Because I truly am willing to do whatever it takes for the people in my life.

Life is hard. I'm not looking for a wife. A girl to take care of. A sex partner. I'm looking for a best friend. A teammate. An equal.   Not someone that I have to look after. Someone who I can team up with and tackle life TOGETHER.

In this moment things are so clear. She'll never be happy. She'll never be healthy. She'll never add to my life. Just take. And being with her will not aid in my pursuit of happiness. in fact. She can only take away from it.

I know she'll try and convince me otherwise. I know she'll try and let me know how happy and healthy she's doing. It's what she always does. Unfortunately  her whole life is and always will be smoke and mirrors. Breaks my heart. But I can go to sleep at night knowing that I tried my best. That things didn't workout between us because I demanded more. Not because I wasn't good enough or expected too much.

And to be honest that makes me smile. Healthy people are attracted to healthy people. And at first she dooped me. But I saw the red flags by the second date when she yelled at me. When I picked up an abusive partner brochure at the health center. It was my fault for getting sucked in and staying. But hey. It's what they do best. And to be honest she was the first girl I ever got close with.

I know through this whole experience I have grown so much. I learned from my mistakes. I learned what I want in a relationship and what I don't. It still breaks my heart and saddens me knowing that I can never have a happy and healthy relationship with her. And that she is all smoke and mirrors. And that even when she appears to be happy and grounded that its all a show. All lies she tells me and herself.

I appreciate everyone's honest and sincere feedback. I'm going to continue to post on here and help others as well as still receive help and support. I know  everyone on here will continue to support me and remind me that this girl I love  is truly sick and to pursue a relationship with her isn't wise or healthy by no means. And that unfortunately she's not going to change. Just reminders that I'll still need to hear from other people.

Thank you all for everything.

[woodsposse]

Awesome post! 

You make a lot of great points and I can see you are truly trying to get to a place of understanding for yourself.

I would like to challenge you on one point, however.

If I read it correctly, you still have it running around in your mind that you can still have some kind of relationship with her in so far as being "friends".

I'd like to challenge you to step back from that thought... . at least for now... . until you are friends with yourself (or at least, other healty people).  I'm not going to suggest cutting her out of your life entirely... . but you have to see it for what it is.

Even being friends, she will drain the life right out of you in ways you don't and can't even see at this moment.  If you allow yourself some time to readjust and get your equilibrium back, you may find that even having her around as a "friend" isn't what you want or need.

Or... . you may find that once you get back to a stable place, there may come a time where you can be in her presense (however that takes form... . in person, emails, texts, fb, etc) and find it is okay.

All that is to say... . I challenge you... . to do you!  I challenge you to be happy with you.  Because... . this is about you. It always has been and it always will be.

You got this, my friend.  You can do it! 

We are all here for you and in your corner.  Now... . go be happy!

[zenwexler]

As always thank you for your continuous support. And as always you're right! I mean I've already suffered plenty of negative consequences by maintaining a texting relationship with her. Its. funny because everyone in the staying board even said that with the tools you learn here its still impossible to have a successful relationship with them. And right now my friendship with her is brutal. She still comes at me. I validate EVERYTHING she says. I'm so kind positive and supportive of her. I never call her out or lose my cool. I stay super casual. What does she do? Tries to push my buttons even harder. Tries to keep poking me to see what reaction I give. Or she'll be frustrated that I'm being nice and understanding because it proves to her that I'm not this unworthy guy to her. Which throws her for a massive loop. The more I prove to her I'm white she just tries harder to paint me black. I mean your absolutely right. Even as friends she sucks me dry!

[Love Is Not Enough]

Even as friends she sucks me dry!

This has been a fascinating conversation. I had one small thing I would like to add from a guy on the Staying board.

I have made it as far as I have in my relationship with my uBPDgf because I love HER kids. You have made many comments about using all that you have learned to have another try. I have stayed and used the tools to improve my life greatly. My gf is doing DBT now and has not had a major dysregulation in 6 months. I am currently living the "dream" you want so badly. BUT... .

We rarely have sex.

I have zero intimacy with her because she is always afraid of my judgement (which I do not do anymore) or using whatever she tells me against her at some point. I also do not share much with her because she will use it against me.

She still accuses me all the time of cheating.

I do not trust her. Period.

I still feel like my connections with family and friends is hindered somewhat.

I am resentful of things that have happened and I am very lonely because I do not feel like I can really share my life with her. Things may get better as time goes on and continues with therapy. I really do not know. The point of all of this is that you will most likely never have a wonderful relationship with this woman you are stuck on. I just wanted to paint you a picture of what it looks like if "they get better".

Even if they improve they will continue to suck you dry if you allow them. Luckily I have chosen to be confident and strong so my gf can no longer do that. I enforce my boundaries and use the tools to maintain the peace.

Just something else for you to think about. I am not telling you to go NC, but I am sure you have read somewhere on here that they usually keep exes around for future recycles. Even my gf went to see an ex (who was supposedly a horrible person) after being broken up for 7 years! She never could give me a believable explanation. Consider giving yourself a break from her. I bet you will feel better as time goes on when you start doing things for YOURSELF. It is hard to see the forest when you are buried in a pit in the middle of it.

Just focus on yourself. Be strong. Good luck 

[Runningbare]

It has been fascinating, its the reason I just joined.

Ive been in the same boat as OP, ive recently ended the chaos again and she is going through the texting staying in touch thing at the moment, ready for another chance to take revenge and teach me another lesson, for not accepting her behaviour.

I was in quite a state earlier, but finding this has been very heartening, My thanks goes to all contributors. Its actually the alienation that has been hard for me, she works to keep everyone she knows segregated so that her webs of lies are easier to maintain. Not everyone has to bear the brunt of her dispicable acts and to try to explain to most would just make me look crazy. To many she is an absolute darling, But to those who have had her... . we have looked into the eyes of the devil herself.

[zenwexler]

You guys are so very right. I was talking to her the other day. She knows I'm road tripping out to California. She texted me saying I better not speed. I made the joke don't worry every time I do I'll think of you. She then responds by bringing up one time we were driving together in traffic and I got really stressed out and got angry. Like what? Really? She had to bring up that ONE time I lost my cool. She always wants to bring up times when I made mistakes. It's like she still tries to convince herself that I'm not good enough. I told her that I was really stressed out because she was leaving for home and I just wanted to spend time with her and my family. She was like yeah right. Don't play the innocent card.

A few days later she was texting me. She uses a noise machine to fall asleep. I took a picture of one in the hotel and sent it to her. She was like yeah. I'm going to get my new bf to start using one. Like again. Stil trying to flaunt her relationship in my face. She keeps asking questions about this girl she thinks I'm hooking up with. She asked if I liked her while we were dating. I told her no. She then asked for her last name. She jokingly told me so she can Facebook her and stalk her!

I know it was a joke but really? Come on. It's fascinating that she does things that are like I still have feelings for you I still have feelings for you. Then she vanishes for a while just to resurface suddenly.

I do appreciate the post about that even when it's good. It's really not that good

[woodsposse]

You guys are so very right. I was talking to her the other day. She knows I'm road tripping out to California. She texted me saying I better not speed. I made the joke don't worry every time I do I'll think of you. She then responds by bringing up one time we were driving together in traffic and I got really stressed out and got angry. Like what? Really? She had to bring up that ONE time I lost my cool. She always wants to bring up times when I made mistakes. It's like she still tries to convince herself that I'm not good enough. I told her that I was really stressed out because she was leaving for home and I just wanted to spend time with her and my family. She was like yeah right. Don't play the innocent card.

A few days later she was texting me. She uses a noise machine to fall asleep. I took a picture of one in the hotel and sent it to her. She was like yeah. I'm going to get my new bf to start using one. Like again. Stil trying to flaunt her relationship in my face. She keeps asking questions about this girl she thinks I'm hooking up with. She asked if I liked her while we were dating. I told her no. She then asked for her last name. She jokingly told me so she can Facebook her and stalk her!

I know it was a joke but really? Come on. It's fascinating that she does things that are like I still have feelings for you I still have feelings for you. Then she vanishes for a while just to resurface suddenly.

I do appreciate the post about that even when it's good. It's really not that good

Time for some hard truths.

You do realize she isn't the one doing this to you... . You are the one doing this to you.  You do see that, don't you?

[zenwexler]

That I'm deciding to subject myself and stay within the chaos? Sadly yes. I do know it's on me now. It's so hard to fully detach.

[woodsposse]

That I'm deciding to subject myself and stay within the chaos? Sadly yes. I do know it's on me now. It's so hard to fully detach.

Yes, it is difficult.  That is, unfortunately, the cold hard truth of the effects of the r/s.

But it gets easier - trust me - once you detach and see things for what they really are versus what you want to believe they are.

Chaos confuses.

[zenwexler]

Should i just stop talking to her all together? Should I tell her I'm distancing myself or just do it?

[woodsposse]

Should i just stop talking to her all together? Should I tell her I'm distancing myself or just do it?

I'll try and be direct as possible.

You can do whatever you like to do.  If you want to go... . go.  If you want to stay... . stay.  If you want to heal... . heal.  If you want to remain in chaos and be hurt... . do that. 

It is totally up to you.

This is the point I know I'm trying to put out here for you.  This is about you.

Your happiness starts and ends with you.  It always has, it always will.

But... . if you are saying you want to go - and asking what is the best way to go about it... . the answer is... . just go.  There is no reason to explain yourself to your abuser why you are not having any contact with them.  Just go be happy.

And in doing that... . yes, stop talking to her all together. It's called No Contact.  And trust me... . it helps.

[Runningbare]

I dont know about over there Zen, but Here in Oz the iphone can block now, its pretty recent but im sure most phones should be able to do it over there. Like Woods says, NC is the eaiest, when the number is blocked you dont have to think about whether to answer or not and it will stop the feelings coming up and dragging you back down. Otherwise you'll end up with her texting back every 6 mths and telling you to shave that long white beard off 

Just say seeya. Its just entertainment to her when she is bored or not getting what she wants from the 'current one' If you did get back to being the current one, you will be tormented by her constantly using the 'other one' to piss you off when you say no to something. You are in the better position now and most likely there are about 5 in your position anyway.

[goldylamont]

zenwexler, this being the undecided staying or leaving board, i'm wondering if this is the appropriate place to be posting -- and i'm not mentioning this as it's not a big deal of where you are posting, but where your head is at. what i mean is, i don't think you are undecided whether you are staying/leaving this girl. you're broken up, in different cities, she's sleeping with other men and taking pleasure in telling you about it. she's repeatedly told you she never wants to be in a r/s with you again.

if you were undecided, then you would still be together and figuring out if you wanted to stay or leave. she already took that option away when she broke up with you.

you need to be careful--pwBPD will play with you like a cat does a dead mouse. you have a deep need to feel 'loved' by this girl and she has a deep need to feel like she can control you. and this dynamic will only stop when she gets bored of you or *you* decide to put an end to it. trust me, it's better for you to 'man-up' and put an end to it first. if you don't, she will get bored of you zenwexler eventually and you will feel all the more bad for not standing up for yourself; swallowing your pride and listening to her tell you how other men are so much more satisfying than you for months on end waiting for a chance just so you can be with -- an abuser

i think your biggest challenge is to simply accept that you are incorrect on your assumption that your ex contacting you 'screams that she cares' -- to nearly anyone on the outside at this point (majority of us here and your Therapist, perhaps even your friends/family?) this behavior shows that she does NOT care about you. we create these fantasies to protect us from the pain of having to accept reality.

zenwexler i feel your work over the next few months will be to let go of this lie that you are telling yourself, that this person cares for you -- not doing so will only further your own pain and enable her abuse. when you finally come to the truth, the realization about how little this person truly cares for you, then you will get (very) angry for a while. i've barely noticed any anger in you yet which means you're not ready to see her for who she truly is.

remember, being undecided means that the other partner is engaged in being in a r/s with you. i see no indication that this girl wants to be in a r/s with you; other than a false 'friendship' where she gets her rocks off flaunting her sexual and emotional attachments to other men. she insinuated that you should buy her a ticket so she could go see her ex bf << that is the reality of where she is at. she's playing games zenwexler, don't give into this bs any more.

[zenwexler]

I do agree with a lot of what you say. I do one hundred percent need to man up and move on. I do disagree though about you saying she doesn't care. In the sense of. Regular person yes, caring is shown MUCH differently. But she can't let me go either. Just last night she was texting me at midnight asking how serious I am with this girl I know. I know she still cares. I'm not saying she's ready to jump into a relationship with me but I know she's still cares. But regardless even when she cares vs doesn't she's still the same person. She's still the manipulative condescending narcissistic person. She's contansy devaluing me. Constantly trying to paint me black. And when I just roll with it and not try to explain how I'm not black, it disarms her for a second then she gets right back to it. You say I don't have anger. But man I get into an angry sadness a lot. I'm furious at this girl. I go back and forth between wanting to kiss her and push her. She's not a nice person. She sucks at life. She's beneath me. Yet I chase her. That's my own personal demon. Why I submit myself to being abused even just as a friend 

[Love Is Not Enough]

Why I submit myself to being abused even just as a friend

Exactly.

Why?

Think about how much better your life would be if you put as much thought into yourself as you do into her.

[woodsposse]

I do agree with a lot of what you say. I do one hundred percent need to man up and move on. I do disagree though about you saying she doesn't care. In the sense of. Regular person yes, caring is shown MUCH differently. But she can't let me go either. Just last night she was texting me at midnight asking how serious I am with this girl I know. I know she still cares. I'm not saying she's ready to jump into a relationship with me but I know she's still cares. But regardless even when she cares vs doesn't she's still the same person. She's still the manipulative condescending narcissistic person. She's contansy devaluing me. Constantly trying to paint me black. And when I just roll with it and not try to explain how I'm not black, it disarms her for a second then she gets right back to it. You say I don't have anger. But man I get into an angry sadness a lot. I'm furious at this girl. I go back and forth between wanting to kiss her and push her. She's not a nice person. She sucks at life. She's beneath me. Yet I chase her. That's my own personal demon. Why I submit myself to being abused even just as a friend 

Please please please understand this.  Everything you describes is how a person who doesn't care about you treats you.  You have to get to a point where you understand this.

[goldylamont]

I do agree with a lot of what you say. I do one hundred percent need to man up and move on. I do disagree though about you saying she doesn't care. In the sense of. Regular person yes, caring is shown MUCH differently. But she can't let me go either. Just last night she was texting me at midnight asking how serious I am with this girl I know. I know she still cares. I'm not saying she's ready to jump into a relationship with me but I know she's still cares. But regardless even when she cares vs doesn't she's still the same person. She's still the manipulative condescending narcissistic person. She's contansy devaluing me. Constantly trying to paint me black. And when I just roll with it and not try to explain how I'm not black, it disarms her for a second then she gets right back to it. You say I don't have anger. But man I get into an angry sadness a lot. I'm furious at this girl. I go back and forth between wanting to kiss her and push her. She's not a nice person. She sucks at life. She's beneath me. Yet I chase her. That's my own personal demon. Why I submit myself to being abused even just as a friend 

she's texting you at midnight because she's hoping to mess things up with you and this girl because midnight would be the time that you two might have been together. i don't mean to sound cold, only to draw contrast to what you are calling "caring". think of people in your life that love and care for you--your family and friends. i'm sure you can see a big difference in the way they care for you and the way she 'cares'. her jealousy over this other girl could be completely fabricated. or she could just be doing the old extinction burst because she wants to keep you in (a long) line for her benefit (not yours).

i ended a healthy r/s with an ex about 9 months ago--i still care deeply for her. it does get to me some if i think about her seeing other guys--but, see, i CARE about her so i'm not going to hold her back. she deserves happiness, because she's a beautiful person. as long as whoever she is with is respectful and brings her joy then i'm happy and ok and i'll deal with my own issues if i have any because i truly care for and respect her. your ex is not looking out for your best interests. not only has she disregarded your feelings and needs, but she is actively provoking you (spelled 'emotional abuse' for whatever reasons she may have. this is *not* care. sure she obviously still is connected to you, she may be concerned about your whereabouts but the reason she's doing what she's doing has nothing to do with caring for you, and everything to do with her disorder.

over time we all learn to depersonalize this stuff. it's a painful realization seeing that your ex doesn't truly care for you. however you can also depersonalize most of the traumatic and painful things she says as this has nothing to do with you either--again, it's the disorder.

my xBPDgf contacted me many months after we went full NC. and it was a short and cordial conversation--but i knew the game already zenwexler, i knew she did not and could never truly care about me. so i didn't bite and ignored further contact. and thank god i did she went on to plow through several other men in no time so disaster averted. it would have delayed my healing to interpret her silliness as caring.

i'm wishing you well, i know this is terribly hard. hang in there ok?

[zenwexler]

I love when you guys don't let me get away and hit me with the straight hard truths. I ar ignore the fact that she is incapable of caring about not just me but anyone truly. I guess what's she's doing now is as close as she'll ever get. Which is clearly not even close to what I want in life. And you're right. It does make it easier knowing that it's not me. It's her disorder. That when she devalues me I can't take it personally. That it truly has nothing to do with me. What I need to start doing is truly accepting that she's incapable of love. That there is no hope. I feel like until I can truly accept that then I'll be able to fully move on.

[goldylamont]

I love when you guys don't let me get away and hit me with the straight hard truths. I ar ignore the fact that she is incapable of caring about not just me but anyone truly. I guess what's she's doing now is as close as she'll ever get. Which is clearly not even close to what I want in life. And you're right. It does make it easier knowing that it's not me. It's her disorder. That when she devalues me I can't take it personally. That it truly has nothing to do with me. What I need to start doing is truly accepting that she's incapable of love. That there is no hope. I feel like until I can truly accept that then I'll be able to fully move on.

^^ very well put zenwexler. understand that you are already moving on--you're just in the early stages of it. but i'm sure you're ahead of where you were at say 6 months ago. you are talking here, you are in therapy, you are having the realizations that you outlined above. it takes courage to do this. a lot more than from a normal breakup. remember that this new awareness represents your strength. so congratulate yourself on this.  you will slip up and fall back many times, so just realize that this is also normal. and every time you come to a realization like the one above allow it to settle and bask in it for a while. i consider myself 'strong' and relatively mentally healthy--but i'm 2 years out and 1 year NC and there's still some processing left for me to do which is why i'm still here  . so you have to look at the loong game with this. i wouldn't worry so much about completely moving on--i think it better to think of moving through with as much love, respect, dignity and kick-assness that you can muster. and when you just can't do this, then stop and grieve for a bit. but you *will* move through.

you are learning early and have time on your side. when you do meet mrs. right you are going to be a seasoned person of character who truly understands how valuable her love truly is. long game. best to you z

[Runningbare]

I'l give you a little idea about depth of care for a BPD.

They have no care for themselves, it has to come from everyone else.

I have spent countless hours with mines mother at hospitals, comforting her, fetching things, generally caring.

When my father died, I got a text of the news, as I was reading it, she went off in jealousy because someone had text, and that I was reading it. After multiple attempts to tell her what it was, I just gave up and sat with my own thoughts, it was a couple of hours before the ranting and then silent treatment subsided and I related the news. She huffed, well I didnt know, and stormed of again.

Two days later I went to the races as he and my grandfather were avid and successful punters. It was a reasonably good day and I had drunk most of the day, we were on a courtesy bus to get home and she had been texting throughout the afternoon. She wanted to get off at a pub near home on the way back so of course thats what we did. I was sitting talking to a couple of people she knew, and a guy with a tear in his eye and odd demeaner sat down and started questioning who I was, out of the corner of my eye I noticed her behind me, I turned to see her with the flaunting dirty girl face on. He was the new sex partner she had been texting all afternoon. I turned to him and just smiled knowingly, he just shrunk off and disappeared. When we got to her place I didnt have my car there and had been drinking all day anyway, thinking I was trapped she launched into a tyrade of abuse about me feeling sorry for myself, I looked at her walked out and jumped the fence out of her yard, walked 10km to the highway and hitchhiked the 40 min drive home at about 3 in the morning.

A week later I went to the funeral and stayed with a mate for the night as it was a 3 hour drive away, she had text all day during and after the funeral and all night, saying how she couldnt wait for me to get home, I arrived home the next day and she had disappeared from contact, 3 days later she turned up. she had been with the guy from the pub until he upset her and she blew up from... . as she put it... . not screwing her as well as I do.

Understand, thats how they care.

[Runningbare]

Dont feel bad about her sucking you in or embarrassed about what behavior you have endured, we have all been there to some extent, believe it or not, there is much worse behavior of hers, that I would struggle to admit to enduring. And yet somehow she can beg soo convincingly for the chance to do it again.

I dont understand what the evil magic is they wield, just know it works, otherwise this site wouldnt be here. 

[AimingforMastery]

Thank you to all of you for this discussion.

If it helps the O/P at all - I am a newbie with an ex(?) GF (aged 30) who has BPD.

I set a boundary 6 months ago that unless she did EMDR therapy I wanted nothing to do with her. She has done it now for many months and is genuinely committed to it, but also admits to feelings of wanting to quit it. There are signs of positive change now but it is slow work and there are still enough crazy behaviours to make anyone go gray... . (She just left for a third time... . who knows who to, who knows to do what... etc etc.)

My point is even with EMDR and genuine commitment, healing takes a great deal of time and there is no guarantee.

So to the O/P, I would never tell you what to do, but without consistent, long term commitment by her to a type of therapy that works, in my humble opinion you have zero shot at happiness with her.

In my situation, I am also aware that it likely gets worse... . before it (IF it) gets better.

Try EMDR yourself to see why you are attracted to someone who abuses you.

Very best to you and all - and thanks, this site is awesome.

[zenwexler]

I'm one week no contact and I feel like screaming! Especially because I'm surprised she hasn't tried to contact me. My only thought is that she knows I'm out in San Diego and all her efforts of trying to bring me down have failed. Still hurts either way

[woodsposse]

 

Your pain is understandable and normal.  Give it some time and cut yourself a little slack.

remember, the pain you are feeling right now is only within you.  Meaning, it is not being brought on by an outside force - so therefore, you can manage it with continued focus on the only person who matters... . and that is you.

You got this.  I promise.   

[Fanie]

Get out now

Find a new life

You will never regret it

[Fanie]

Mort Fertell

         Calls it "Emotional Rape"

Wow - I can feel it sometimes deep inside . . . . .

Goodluck Buddy . . . . .

[zenwexler]

So when we first broke up I got her a plant. She just moved and so I thought it would be nice. Well that was last July. And I'm trying to go no contact and suprise suprise she texts me saying how that plant is still alive! I always take those types of comments as "I miss you but I just can't bring myself to say it."

In a week state I responded... . I just said oh nice. I'm sure you take good care of it. She then texted me at three in the morning. Like what was she possibly doing up at that hour? She never stays up past 11 and then she texts me at three in the morning when she has a bf?


Ridiculous.

[zenwexler]

She always speaks in code. She knows I just got to San Diego. She's still in New York

Her: Actually when I left for Christmas my roommates didn't water it and it apparently completely died and then it came back to life!

Me:Haha. See. Its like it's owner. It's a plant that never gives up!

Her: You are so weird. Thats sweet but... . also kinda weird. Hows san Diego?

Me: San Diego is great! It's absolutely gorgeous here. The weather is literally perfect. It's always warm but not too hot and sunny. It's kind of crazy. And the people are so nice. I'm very impressed so far.

Her: Omg thats so cool I wanna go. But ny will do for now, especially since I got mah peeps here. I just hate winter

Me: I know right? Winter gets old fast. Its crazy. Everything is out doors. Even the mall! Sign with a ballet company in Cali. Haha You really would love it here. Plus it's pretty close to your brother. I want my whole family to come out!

Her: Okay settle, im not moving out there haha i have another year here at least


Her: I'll go when you come back so we dont run into each other.  Haha jk

Me: who says I'm coming back?

Her: then I guess I won't come

Me:

Her: huh?

It's just always riddles. New York will do for now. I got my peeps here. Like if she was happy with friends and her bf she wouldn't make comments like that. It's just so bizarre to me.

[AimingforMastery]

Zen,

If (?), as it appears she has a bf and BPD (untreated?), why don't you replace NC (no contact) with NC (new contact) - as in join e harmony or match or something to get this behind you once and for all. I'm not telling you what to do, but my gf has BPD and I know how tough this is, and my gf is doing intensive treatment and improving and it still ripping my health apart.

You had a good life and I doubt you need this. As hard a sit is, if my gf was seeing someone else I'd have to accept its over - riddles or no riddles. In fact these riddles show you owe it to yourself to MOVE ON - in my humble opinion - and find a healthier partner.

GOOD LUCK

[Emelie Emelie]

Hey Zen - I read this thread from the beginning today.  I'm not sure if you've read my story but I was exactly where you are.  We had dated about a year, a drama filled year, and then he suddenly dumped me.  I was absolutely devastated.  A freaking mess for months.  Went to Therapy.  We kept in contact.  Five months later he begged me to get back together.  Had never loved a woman as much as he loved me.  Was determined to do whatever it took to make our relationship work.  DBT, support groups, quit drinking, you name it.  Full court press.  EVERYONE told me I was crazy.  My Therapist essentially told me there was no hope.  But hey... . he was really committed to making it work and I had spent hours on these boards and read a dozen books on BPD and learned communication techniques and I really thought I could do it better this time.  I was also afraid if I never tried I'd spend the rest of my life wondering.  And I loved him.  So I went back.  Over the strong objections of everyone in my life (including my teenaged daughter). 

It didn't take a year.  Same exact pattern but he dumped me four months later this time.  The pain is actually worse this time around.  I believed he was really committed to this relationship and so was I. 

[woodsposse]

There are some great points in AimingForMastery's post.  As hard as it is - having an ex who now has someone else in their life... . that pretty much is a reality check that it is over - riddles or no riddles.  And I know how difficult it is to accept it, but that is what it is.

My exPDw ripped me to shreds during the last years of our marriage.  I didn't know up from down.  It was horrible.  Although all the signs were there she was lining up my replacement and treating me like I didn't exist, I still held on during all the stressful game playing times, even thinking that if I just held on and even tried not to upset her that things could get back to normal and we could love each other.

That never happened.

Then the big split finally happened whether I wanted it or not, I just knew there was nothing else I could do and it was killing me.  So I said "go if you have to go".  But even then - she still couldn't leave me alone.

Once I started dating someone (even in the messed up state I was in), she still came crashing through the door and really put my head in a tail spin.  This went on for practically the whole time I was dating my new GF. Slowly I had to pull away from her (my ex-wife) while still trying to maintain that I was stable with my new GF.

Some days were better than others.  Some days sucked.

In the end, two things happened.

One... . I finally went LC with my ex... . then NC... . and I could finally detach and felt okay and acceptance came in for what we had been going through.  The disorder is a beast... . and although I could finally understand what I was dealing with, I had to figure out why I stayed in it so long.  Which lead me to understand what I brought to the table (my own FOO and childhood trauma issues).  So I came to acceptance of that as well.

The other thing which happened was, not two months after finally being stable with my split/divoce and not speaking to my ex and getting all stable and stuff... . me and my GF split up.  

I'm slowly coming to the realization that although I thought I was having a great new relationship after my split with my wife, all I had really done was get myself involved with someone (who was really great to be with) too fast and brought way too much baggage for our r/s to continue in any healthy way.

This is turning out to be a little more difficult for me to handle than I thought.  Mostly because I wish I had had the understanding I have now about what I had gone through with my wife all those years.  I wish I had finally understood that I was continuing to work out a pattern of dysfunctional relationships in some attempt to correct whatever was going on from my childhood.  Albeit unconsciously.

I did have a great time with my GF.  And I wish it didn't have to end.  But ultimately I know that I wasn't 100% ready to go forward with anyone because I was still connected to my ex.  Which is normal.

But neither my new GF nor I deserved to have my ex in the mix clouding up my head.  I'm positive, among other things, it was my baggage and connection to my ex which ultimately lead to us breaking up.  But, conversely - if I had known 18 short months ago what I know now, I'm positive my GF and I wouldn't have been together to start anyway.

Not to say that the relationship was dysfunctional.  It's just my emotions were so raw and her and I both deserved for them to be healed more to see if there was something more we could have had.  I don't know if there was.  All  I know is that part of me felt so good because I was with someone who wasn't trampling on me that I didn't care about anything else.

And I'm more responsible than that.  Not just to others, but to myself.

So, yes, I let a lot of things slip past me which I probably shouldn't have or normally wouldn't because it just felt good to be with her (or anyone who wasn't my  ex).  So in a way, my ex was with me during the entire relationship... . which, again, wasn't fair.

All of that is to say this... . try and see the reality of where you are.  you deserve to be healthy.

[AimingforMastery]

Great post Woodsposse.

The hardest things of all are to know are they making real progress - maybe 1 in 10 do - and whether the final straw has happened; and of course to work why are you in it in the first place!

Wishing you health and happiness.

[antjs]

Thank you so much for your in depth response. A part of me wants to run but I still do truly feel like she still cares. You say watch her actions not her words. Her words say I don't want to be with you but her actions say please stay in my life. So the fact that I believe she still has feelings for me is what keeps me around. But it hurts because she is dating someone else. She tries to flaunt it to me. The other day she said sorry for the delayed response. I was eating dinner then had a loong phone call. Insinuating she was talking to her new bf. I mean when she does things like that it just screams to me that she's not over me. I mean if she was in a happy and healthy relationship I would not be hearing from her!

please read about triangulation in abusive relationships. you seem young and healthy and are not too involved with this person yet. go to the leaving board and read about nons who have been married for 20 or 30 years and woke up one day to find their BPD have left in a flick of any eye leaving husband\wife and children behind and getting a new bf\gf within a week. too much sad and miserable stories. i myself have been in this chaos for 3 months and i have learned it the hard way. JUST RUN, MAINTAIN NO CONTACT AND DEAL WITH YOUR FEELINGS ON UR OWN UNTIL THEY GO AWAY. i am now recovering but came back to the undecided forum to help people.

[AimingforMastery]

Antony,

Great post for everyone. I am an undecided. I would welcome your views on my thread - "Advice sought" - as my gf is getting extensive treatment.

[zenwexler]

I know i'm doing this to myself. I know it's on me now. I am just so irritated! I sent her a picture of a dolphin. She loves sea life. What does she say? That I need new shoes. I was like haha uh ok. I got plenty of shoes.  she then said:

"you always have to make your point, ah, somethings never change. I don't know how we ever lasted as long as we did with all the fights. You have to admit, we were not good together."

Like really? All that because I sent her a freaking text of a cute dolphin. And then she wants to put on me saying I haven't changed? It makes me just want to scream.

One side of me wants to just say nothing, ignore her forever. The other side of me wants to say

"we stayed together because once upon a time we cared about each other. But now that has passed, We've moved on, and quite frankly I don't really enjoy this friendship much either. Then just go NC... . for REAL this time.

[AimingforMastery]

Zen,

Let's decode and then decode again... .

Decode # 1 - she hates the fact that you get her more than the guy she's with, so she lashes out

Decode # 2 - she can not take responsibility, she is betraying her current man saying this and betraying you

So - don't reply at all. She is a betrayer in her nature. Go NC now and never ever turn back.

[zenwexler]

Aimingfor is that really what you think? Because that's how I feel too. It just hurts when she puts it on me and says things like I haven't changed. Because all I have ever done lately is be as perfect as I can be. I literally kill her with  kindness and just absorb all her abuse and let it just roll of me. Aka I vent here  but it goes unoticed. She makes comments like the above and it just makes me more frustrated and confused

[AimingforMastery]

look, I cant tell you what to do.

BUT IF

1) she is getting now help, and

2) she has another man

3) she treats you badly

THEN RUN LIKE HELL

[AimingforMastery]

typo - she is NOT getting help - not "NOW"

[zenwexler]

So I wrote this,

" I'm sorry that yesterday you felt that way that I was like trying to argue or prove my point. I can definitely see how it came off like that. I really wasn't. I think things just got lost in translation through text. One of the drawbacks of only speaking through texts!

I really was just trying to send you a trailer about a movie that I thought you would like about how terrible sea world is and a picture of a dolphin and how my area is really conscious of marine life

Her response?

"Yesssss I know. Are you sure you don't want to get back together? I just want to make sure."

[AimingforMastery]

I am guessing clearly you would like to?

All I can say is unless she is in treatment I wouldn't.

Does she have a bf at this time?

Have you done EMDR to see why you are hooked?

[zenwexler]

Yes I told her no though, that you have a bf.

She said she is falling for her new guy. Suprise surpsie. She has ''fallen'' for every guy she has ever dated!

She asked because she just wants to make sure that I don't want to get back together. That there's not a doubt that she doesn't want to get back together with me.

So then it's like uhhh ok, then stop texting me!

[AimingforMastery]

Look, get clarity with your self.

If you want her back then you have to set clear boundaries and conditions - i.e. GET WELL and 110% loyalty.

If you genuinely think she has a real chance of doing that my advice would be say that, or otherwise walk.

I have said to my gf the following:-

1) - you must get therapy or I am gone - SHE is doing that now intensively

2) - you must be loyal 110% - assuming she is being truthful, she is doing that now and wants me to meet her parents now

3) - you must start being considerate and nicer to me - beginning to... .

But even then my health is failing and I have anxiety just thinking about her after what she has put me through.

So know what you want, evaluate if she can do it, then either ask her to or LEAVE FOR GOOD.

[zenwexler]

I've asked her! She said she never wants to get back together, that she's falling for her new guy yet she texts me all the time and every time I pull away she comes chasing after me.

If I could convince her to give me another chance. I would, but that proves to be difficult. She just wants to do this dance forever. I guess she gets enjoyment out of it.

I told her I think it's best we no longer talk,

She ok why?

I think I may just say You know I just want you to be happy. If you don't know that by now then I'll  never be able to convince you. Good bye

And just leave it at that. I don't know. She just freaking hurts me over and over

[zenwexler]

Like you said above, she can't take that I get her more, but yet she tells me she's falling for him?

She just wants to hurt me.

[AimingforMastery]

Send her by mail a book(s) on borderlines, tell her to GET WELL in a letter & say NC unless you get well & are single.

Then you are clear & have honoured you, her & your connection.

Meantime find someone else healthy.

That way you have done your duty.

[zenwexler]

I just don't get it, she tells me she's falling in love with him yet she texts me all the time. It's so confusing and hurtful.

[AimingforMastery]

I restate my former advice.

Tell her she needs to get well, set your boundary and leave the stage.

[zenwexler]

Emelie I love you. That made me smile! I needed that considering I was crying all day today. Man enough to admit it!  She's twenty. She is a child. I know. She sucks me in!

I have done this so many times. But I read it takes roughly six times to finally pull away from an abusive/BPD partner. And here we go, this is my 6th time. Although I am doing this for real this time. I am going to need a ton of support. I am going to delete her from my facebook, remove her pictures. And block her number. She finally even admitted to me that she is mean to me. She claims she does it because she thinks I still have feelings for her so she gets defensive. Such BS. She also told me she's falling for her new guy. Oh yeah? then why are you texting me all the time!

It ends now. She doesn't know what love is, she won't for a very long time if ever. She doesn't know how to have a healthy and happy relationship. It's over. I tried, and I tried and I tried. I literally did everything for her. When she would attack me I absorbed it like a champ. She just pushed harder. She would try and paint me black, convince herself that I'm not good. I would just roll with it. Be sweet and nice, literally just killing her with kindess. It only made her more mean! She's the definition of crazy. The definition of walking on eggshells, the definition of I hate you don't leave me.

But I am leaving. I can't live like this anymore. It's time for me to listen to my friends, family, therapist, and you fine people. You all tell me she's crazy, abusive, not nice. You all tell me she will never change, that she's not happy and never will be, no matter who she's dating. You all tell me to get out while I still can.

Her crazy has made me feel crazy for too long.  And I worked to darn hard to become the man that I am today. I've been through way too much in this world. I have suffered a ton. And I will not be brought down any more. I won't let this girl, this 20 year old child who has no perception of reality make me feel like I am crazy. That I am worthless, unlovable, that it's my fault she treats me the way she does. Even when she admits to being mean to me. It does matter, even her self-awareness doesn't help her change. I'm not the hopeless one. I'm not the sick one, I'm not the crazy one, the abusive one. SHE IS. And it's time I step down of this roller coaster once and for all.

You're support, words of wisdom, and advice are always much much appreciated. Thank you all so much.

[AimingforMastery]

You are not crazy. Let that thought go.

There are literally millions of fish in the sea.

FEEL GOOD.

you have avoided tons of misery and at 20... . !  She will not be ready for a decade.

Move on, find someone GREAT. Let it go & TRUST

You are great. TRUST that :-)

[zenwexler]

I'm 25 And thank you. I hope you're right! And I really do have to let that thought go. I know I'm not crazy. I'm only crazy because I still chase her.

I admit I am scared to block her. Because I know she will try and reach out.

[AimingforMastery]

Well at 25 everything like this is hard, but seriously there are so many other healthy girls out there.

Go do some EMDR and look at your stuff.

BLOCK HER, RUN etc etc.   If she really loves you she will find a way to come get you. But she will not.

Borderlines have no sense of self so they have to fill up that emptiness with whatever is in front of them. It isn't personal, it has nothing to do with you in fact. It is an ILLNESS>> >

So RUN.

GET WELL YOURSELF

Find a winner, not a messed up person.

[zenwexler]

I'm going to try. It's already so hard. I officially blocked her on my phone. The next step is defriending her on Facebook. I'm scared to do this. I'm scared to keep her number blocked. I already think to myself what if she's trying to get in contact with me? But I'm also relieved because I know if my phone vibrates it can't be her. And I know as soon as I defriend her she'll try and text me. And I won't even see it. I never even said good bye this time.