Feeling hopeful

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I just read the first 3 chapters of Stop Caretaking the Borderline and I can't wait to finish it!  I feel like its talking right to me (I guess it is since I'm reading it  ).  I feel more empowered and hopeful than I have in the last week - when I left with a large suitcase and then went back  .  I've been feeling so disgusted and upset with myself for returning to our house, and I know in my heart I have to leave and stay gone, and I feel like this book will really help me.  I know its just a book, but I need to hear all the things its telling me. 

Unfortunately, all the great things I was told on these boards last week after I left fell on deaf ears.  I stayed away for 2 nights and then let him convince me to come home and talk.  UGH! I wish I was stronger but now I feel like I'm going to read this book and its going to help me move forward. 

[toomanyeggshells]

I just read the first 3 chapters of Stop Caretaking the Borderline and I can't wait to finish it!  I feel like its talking right to me (I guess it is since I'm reading it  ).  I feel more empowered and hopeful than I have in the last week - when I left with a large suitcase and then went back  .  I've been feeling so disgusted and upset with myself for returning to our house, and I know in my heart I have to leave and stay gone, and I feel like this book will really help me.  I know its just a book, but I need to hear all the things its telling me. 

Unfortunately, all the great things I was told on these boards last week after I left fell on deaf ears.  I stayed away for 2 nights and then let him convince me to come home and talk.  UGH! I wish I was stronger but now I feel like I'm going to read this book and its going to help me move forward. 

[Lucky Jim]

Hi tme, What did it feel like during those two nights while you were away?  Go easy on yourself.  It seems like maybe it wasn't the right time for you to leave on a permanent basis.  Give yourself credit for packing a suitcase and spending time on your own for a few days.  After reading your previous post, I am under the impression that you are waiting for another blowup in order to make another run for it.  Why are you waiting?  Tough question, I know.  LuckyJim

[winston72]

Hey TME, I am glad the book is energizing for you.  As LuckyJim posted, go easy on yourself!  It is difficult to disengage and find our footing.

I have copied a link to a review of Stop Caretaking the Borderline that is on this website.

https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/stop-caretaking-borderline-or-narcissist

[JLK1011]

Thank you for the book suggestion. Checked out a copy.

[toomanyeggshells]

Hi tme, What did it feel like during those two nights while you were away?  Go easy on yourself.  It seems like maybe it wasn't the right time for you to leave on a permanent basis.  Give yourself credit for packing a suitcase and spending time on your own for a few days.  After reading your previous post, I am under the impression that you are waiting for another blowup in order to make another run for it.  Why are you waiting?  Tough question, I know.  LuckyJim

Those 2 nights felt great actually.  It always feels so good to get away from him.  I've gone to visit each of my daughters for a few days (they both live a plane ride away) and even sitting by myself in an airport is more enjoyable than sending time with him. 

When I was writing my initial post on this thread, I asked myself the same question about waiting for a blowup to leave.  I don't know why I can't just walk away when things are calm.  I think I feel like I need an immediate excuse (his raging) rather than just his basing it on previous behavior or my day to day unhappiness with him.  That's definitely an issue I need to figure out.  I think that if I left during a calm period, he would know I was serious rather than leaving when I'm upset and he's screaming, which seems like just a reaction to him rather than doing what I really want to do.  Thanks for making me think about that LuckyJim.

Hey TME, I am glad the book is energizing for you.  As LuckyJim posted, go easy on yourself!  It is difficult to disengage and find our footing.

Thanks winston.  I'm working on it!

[nevaeh]

I just started reading it as well and it's amazing how this book is describing my life exactly how it has been.  I actually started feeling a bit anxious as I was reading about the drama triangle and how it all works.  It also really hit home reading about how it becomes the job of everyone else in the family to make the BP happy and make sure they don't get upset.  Even my kids do it and I realize I taught them to, which makes me a little sick.

I haven't told H I am reading the book but we were having a "conversation" last night about things and he told me for the millionth time that he has never tried to control me and that it's unfair that I think he has.  I realize I will never be able to explain all of this to him in a way that he will understand and accept so why bother trying?

I really don't know how to put into words how I was feeling when reading through the first few chapters.  Sick, anxious, frustrated, hopeless, vindicated... . maybe all of those.  I also thought it was interesting how they described the difference between codependency and caretakers. I definitely think I fit the definition of a caretaker.  Very high functioning in all of my other relationships except this one, highly capable at work, etc.

I am looking forward to the part of the book when they tell me how to STOP being the caretaker!  Whoever recommended this book... . THANK YOU!

[toomanyeggshells]

nevaeh, I could have written your post!  Last week when I was having such a bad time, fromheeltoheal quoted a passage from the book and I looked it up.  I've read the first 3 chapters and I feel the exact way you described - anxious, excited and kind of sick to my stomach.  I'm also more of a caretaker than co-dependent. 

The book really describes me to a "t".  I just started the 4th chapter where it describes the different types of caretakers and, according to the questions in the back of the book, I'm the one right down the middle (I can't remember what its called.  I'm at work and the book is in my car).  When I was reading the description of my type of caretaker, its like they interviewed me and then described me.  Its so accurate, its crazy.  I guess that's why I feel so hopeful reading it, its like I'm in one-on-one therapy and the T is talking right to me. 

Unfortunately, I can't read the book at home unless uBPDbf goes to bed eary (then I'll get it out of my car).  I thought about just taking it in the house and seeing what happens when he notices the title, but that will just cause an uproar and I'm soo not in the mood for that.  I'll just read it at work during my lunch hour or in the morning before work. 

I am looking forward to the part of the book when they tell me how to STOP being the caretaker! 

You and me both 

[nevaeh]

I have it on my kindle so can read it anytime.  I'm beyond caring if he knows I'm reading it.  He could look on the Amazon account to see that I purchased it.  I just haven't told him I'm reading it.

Below are a few quotes from the book that struck a nerve... .

"As a caretaker, it is your job to please and take care of the BP/NP first and foremost. To do this, you will have learned to ignore your own needs, become adapted to a highly emotional, tense, and chaotic environment, and become hypervigilant to the BP/NP's emotional reactions. Your job is to do everything that the BP/NP is not willing or able to do, give in to whatever the BP/NP wants, and carefully monitor the family's image in the community."

"BP/NP's often hold an extremely perfectionist standard for the behavior of others while expecting very few or no consequences for their own behaviors. This unfair yet rigid application of rules and roles by the BP/NP is treated as normal by everyone in the family. Healthier members of the family are expected to be totally committed to protecting and caring for the BP/NP's feelings and needs. The BP/NP may be irresponsible, abusive, sarcastic, self-centered, and mean, but you are required to make the BP/NP feel better, never disagree with him or her, and never tell people outside the family anything negative about the BP/NP."

"In personal intimate relationships, your sense of self may be much more vulnerable, fragile, and unclear than you realize. This makes you more easily victimized and manipulated by a BP/NP. You forgive the BP/NP over and over, take on more and more responsibility for the relationship, and, when nothing gets any better, end up feeling used, exhausted, angry, and confused. You believe that somehow if you just did the "right thing," you would be able to help the BP/NP become happier and more satisfied, and then the BP/NP would show you the love that you want. Whenever the borderline acts normally, you become immensely elated, believing time and time again that now "everything will be better," only to be let down when he or she returns to dysfunctional thinking and behaving again. This makes you vulnerable to overfunctioning in relationships and putting up with a partner who is severly underfunctioning."

[nevaeh]

Another excerpt from the book:

"Caretaking may sound a lot like codependency. Codependency seems to be a more pervasive set of personality traits that are applied in every aspect of a person's life, including at work, in friendships, at school, in parenting, and in intimate relationships. Codependent behaviors could be described quiet similarly to those that caretakers use. However, most caretakers take on this role almost exclusively inside the family and primarily only with the borderline or narcissist. Often caretakers are very independent, good decision makers, competent and capable on their own when not in a relationship with a borderline or narcissist. It is almost as if the caretaker lives in two different worlds with two different sets of behaviors, rules, and expectations, one set with teh BP/NP and another with everyone else. You may even hide your caretaking behaviors from others and try to protect other family members from taking on caretaking behavior, much like child abuse victims try to protect siblings from being abused.

To become a caretaker, you need to be highly intuitive of the needs of the BP/NP, intelligent enough to learn the distorted and contradictory rules the BP/NP needs to function, observant enough to keep track of all the nuances of the fast-changing emotional family environment, and creative enough to find ways to calm and appease the BP/NP but also with low enough self-esteem to not think that you deserve better treatment, more consideration, or equal caring in return. When you become the caretaker, you take on the role of making the BP/NP feel safe, secure, and loved at all times. In addition, you may also feel it is your job to "teach" the BP/NP to act more appropriately and to help the BP/NP "get better".

The caretaker role is created by a combination of highly sympathetic and parasympathetic responses, a personality guided primarily by a particular combination of feelings (fear, obligation, and guilt) as well as random and calculated reinforcement by the BP/NP, and a chaotic environment that needs organization to function to meet the basic physical and financial needs of the family.

In addition, caretakers seem to be more emotionally overresponsive to others than the average person. You have either learned or you just innately respond to the pain of others and see yourself as responsible to take care of that pain. Caretakers are people willing to put their own needs and wants on hold to help and/or please others. They have a tendency to feel hopeless and helpless when overwhelmed and have a great aversion to feeling or expressing anger. They are especially prone to being manipulated by fear, obligation and guilt, whether coming from others or within yourself."

[Lucky Jim]

Hello again, toomany,

Well, here's a big red flag  for you:

Unfortunately, I can't read the book at home unless uBPDbf goes to bed eary (then I'll get it out of my car). 

I suspect that most of us Nons have engaged in the same sort of secretive, under-the-radar activities, in order to avoid rocking the boat.  You almost have to, in order to stay in a r/s with a pwBPD, because you learn that it only takes a spark to start a conflagration.  So it's easier, and safer, to hide what we know will cause a reaction in our BPD SO.

Nevertheless, just because it's commonplace doesn't mean that it's healthy.  I think we lose a little bit of ourselves when we are so intimidated by our BPD SO that we have to hide normal activities, like reading a book, due to our fear of triggering a reaction.  So the behavior has to go underground, as if there's something shameful about it (there isn't).  I did it many times, believe me, but I don't feel good about it.

LuckyJim

[nevaeh]

I suspect that most of us Nons have engaged in the same sort of secretive, under-the-radar activities, in order to avoid rocking the boat.  You almost have to, in order to stay in a r/s with a pwBPD, because you learn that it only takes a spark to start a conflagration.  So it's easier, and safer, to hide what we know will cause a reaction in our BPD SO.

Nevertheless, just because it's commonplace doesn't mean that it's healthy.  I think we lose a little bit of ourselves when we are so intimidated by our BPD SO that we have to hide normal activities, like reading a book, due to our fear of triggering a reaction.  So the behavior has to go underground, as if there's something shameful about it (there isn't).  I did it many times, believe me, but I don't feel good about it.

So true!  Here's a twist that maybe you've experienced?  Now that all of my cards are on the table and H knows the gig is up, so to speak, I have started opening up more about these kinds of things. H had no idea that I have seen about 9 different counselors over the years.  He had no idea I had a whole STASH of books on this subject (as well as emotional abuse, codependency, divorce, etc).  He had no idea I had seen a lawyer as many times as I had.

He quickly turned all of those things on me (now that he has taken on the caretaker role in our triangle while I am some mix of the persecutor/victim) and said that IF HE HAD KNOWN I was doing those things he would have realized he needed to change then and it wouldn't have gotten so far out of control.  A bunch of BS because I know that he would have reacted with crazy rage, not competent understanding. But it's back on me that if I would have just told him then he would have started working on getting better much sooner!  Ugh!

[toomanyeggshells]

Well, here's a big red flag  for you:

Unfortunately, I can't read the book at home unless uBPDbf goes to bed eary (then I'll get it out of my car). 

I suspect that most of us Nons have engaged in the same sort of secretive, under-the-radar activities, in order to avoid rocking the boat.  You almost have to, in order to stay in a r/s with a pwBPD, because you learn that it only takes a spark to start a conflagration.  So it's easier, and safer, to hide what we know will cause a reaction in our BPD SO.

Nevertheless, just because it's commonplace doesn't mean that it's healthy.  I think we lose a little bit of ourselves when we are so intimidated by our BPD SO that we have to hide normal activities, like reading a book, due to our fear of triggering a reaction.  So the behavior has to go underground, as if there's something shameful about it (there isn't).  I did it many times, believe me, but I don't feel good about it.

I agree with you completely.  I should be able to read whatever books I want in the house I live in, regardless of what he thinks.  When we started living together 4-1/2 yrs ago, I was getting a monthly magazine that he hates.  In the beginning, I'd put it away and only read it when he wasn't home.  It didn't take me long to realize that I had every right to read whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted and I haven't hidden the magazine since. 

My issue with reading this book in front of him is what my response will be if he asks what its about, although the title is pretty self-explanatory.  I thought about just saying "its a book about psychology" or "its a book to help me in this relationship".  I don't know.  I'm certainly open to suggestions because I want to read this book and get on with things. 

[nevaeh]

Don't feel bad TooMany... . it happens so often and we're so susceptible to it.

Several years ago I went through a phase where I was reading a lot (it was right after he had returned from being deployed to Iraq where he had a 9-month long physical and emotional affair) to escape the realities of my life.  I found it quiet therapeutic and relaxing.  And the books were not psychology type books, they were just novels/fiction.  One night he got really mad and told me he was tired of me reading all the time and that I should be spending more time with him.  I didn't read a book AT ALL for probably two years after that.  Well, except for when I read books to the kids.  Sad, huh?

[toomanyeggshells]

Now that all of my cards are on the table and H knows the gig is up, so to speak, I have started opening up more about these kinds of things.

You know, I never really thought about just laying my cards on the table.  I've read on these boards alot that you shouldn't tell the pwBPD that you think they are mentally ill or that they have BPD.  I get that.  Actually, nevaeh, the thought of being completely honest about this book and what I'm hoping to learn from it sounds like a good idea.  What's the worst that can happen - he's rages and insists that he's not mentally ill.  I can deal with that. 

At this moment, I'm feeling really good about walking in the house after work with the book under my arm and reading it when I want.  If he asks, I'm going to be honest.  I have nothing to lose. 

[nevaeh]

Just a little history... . I told H I wanted a divorce about 4-5 years ago.  He had the same reaction as now (begging, pleading, promising to change, etc).  He was "open" enough at that time that I felt it was "safe" to mention BPD to him.  I gave him my copy of the Walking on Eggshells book and he actually did read it.  But, he didn't think it applied to him and that he didn't meet all the criteria.  He did see a counselor about 4-5 times but he got absolutely nowhere.

This time we have had similar conversations. H is seeing a counselor and he has talked to a physician and even brought home the DSM book (the one that has all the mental disorders in it for diagnosing purposes).  I casually brought up BPD again and he asked the doctor about it but she didn't think it applied to him (nor did he).  But this doctor doesn't know what he's like at home and was only going by what H told her, so I don't know how she could possibly say he was or wasn't.  I went through each of the criteria and told him what I thought "might" apply and he said he could see some of it but still didn't think his problems were that "severe".  He thinks he just has an anger management problem as well as control issues.

At some point in the past few months I gave up the notion that it would be helpful if he knew what his real issues were. I know he is not introspective or honest enough to truly get to the root of his problem and I also know that this is a personality disorder that he will likely never be able to oversome even with lots and lots of therapy. 

I'm not saying it's a problem to be honest, but maybe evaluate why you are being honest before you do.  I always took the approach that "even if you aren't BPD, you do have some similar characteristics and this book will help me figure out how to work with those characteristics."

The other thing is to be prepared that if he's in the mood to pull you back in, he could use this as a way to do so... . acknowledge that he does have some issues and promise to get help.  That's not a bad thing, I just think you need to be prepared with how you will deal with it.  What are you hoping to learn from the book and how will that impact your relationship with him?  Because the title of the book is how to stop being a caretaker, and you could either read that as how to stop being a caretaker to make your relationship health, OR the only way to get healthy is to stop being a caretaker in this relationship.

[toomanyeggshells]

One night he got really mad and told me he was tired of me reading all the time and that I should be spending more time with him.  I didn't read a book AT ALL for probably two years after that.  Well, except for when I read books to the kids.  Sad, huh?

That's also part of my situation.  He doesn't want me reading or doing anything that takes my attention off him.  I have to be focused on him all the time and its exhausting.  I feel like I have a two year old child again and that's definitely not what I signed up for. 

[toomanyeggshells]

At some point in the past few months I gave up the notion that it would be helpful if he knew what his real issues were. I know he is not introspective or honest enough to truly get to the root of his problem and I also know that this is a personality disorder that he will likely never be able to oversome even with lots and lots of therapy. 

That's similar to my situation. I've suggested counseling in the past - couples counseling so he didn't feel like it was just him.  He's refused every time I bring it up.  He'll admit that he has jealousy issues and that his reactions get out of hand at times, but that's it.  According to him, that's just the way he is and he's not going to change.  I feel deep in my gut there's some really bad stuff going on inside him from something and he won't face it.  I'm 99.9999% sure that he'll never agree to therapy no matter what, but maybe its that tiny little percentage that makes me think something can change. 

I'm not saying it's a problem to be honest, but maybe evaluate why you are being honest before you do.  I always took the approach that "even if you aren't BPD, you do have some similar characteristics and this book will help me figure out how to work with those characteristics."

I love that approach and I'm going to steal it    At this point, the r/s is dead.  Until I leave, I'm not looking to make things worse, but I feel like after all I've put up with from him, now I'm ready to lay my cards on the table and let him deal with it  however he wants to.  If by some miracle he agreed to counseling, I might be more open to trying to work things out, but not if he continues to refuse help. 

What are you hoping to learn from the book and how will that impact your relationship with him?  Because the title of the book is how to stop being a caretaker, and you could either read that as how to stop being a caretaker to make your relationship health, OR the only way to get healthy is to stop being a caretaker in this relationship.

At this point, I'm hoping that this book helps me walk away.  I feel like no matter what I learn from the book about myself or how to better deal with his issues, it won't make a difference.  I really believe he won't/can't change.  I've used so many of the lessons from these boards (I was Staying for a long time) and no matter what I did, nothing changed on his side.  I've definitely learned the better ways to react to his rages and respond to him on a day-to-day basis, but for me, its no way to live.  Thankfully, we don't have kids together (we're both divorced with our own grown kids).  I've stayed this long because I felt bad for him and for the house we bought together.