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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Does BPD get worse when untreated ?  (Read 1816 times)
Fanie
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« on: June 02, 2014, 08:31:03 AM »

Hi Everyone

Opinions needed - DOES BPD GET WORSE OVER TIME WHEN UNTREATED ?

Married 2 kiddos

I met my wife 12 years ago

If I recall correctly there were  NO symptoms

Middle of the relationship there was a few regarding cheating

(how bad the cheating was I don't know - there were other men so to speak)

End of 2013 a NUKE busted and she was, binge drinking, binge eating (gained 10kg's), and men (to what extend I don't know)

Not rude and swearing, just avoiding

I went down slowly since middle May she cooled down very much.

(There is almost daily this one hour phone calls in the evenings which she lies

about and don't want to talk about (people making her feel good ?)and binge drinking stopped))

(for now?)

She actually sms me a week ago saying " what's wrong with me and alcohol?"

I asked her if she still wants me to move out - she said "lets take it slowly"

(She told me on the height of the nuke to move out - I refused coz of the kiddos 3 and 5

Inputs brothers and sisters please

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arjay
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 08:39:40 AM »

Greetings.  I noticed from my dBPDxw that often challenges of life would trigger her and the over-the-top behavior.  For example when my mother died and I had to focus on family matters and the funeral, another when I was gone for two days regarding work.  Or maybe some other major event.  Is there stuff going on in her life and/or your's?  I haven't read your story.

As far as it getting worse over time when untreated, I have read where it can or sometimes wane some as well.  My 'ex' did get some treatment and it seemed to help some.  It was not to the level however that I hoped.  Some of the really bad behavior never  changed.

Peace

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OutOfEgypt
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2014, 08:50:28 AM »

Hi Fanie,

Have you read this article?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

I'm not sure what you are describing has to do with it "getting worse" if untreated so much as it has to do with the cycle of the relationship with a BPD person.  There are phases.  Read that article.  At least for me, it was stunningly accurate.  My dad read it, and he was so upset after reading it (as it described his ex daughter in law, my ex wife and our relationship so accurately) that he couldn't talk about it.

The relationship with a BPD always starts out wonderfully at first.  It just never stays there.  Of course, no normal relationship remains in the honeymoon phase, either, but there are distinctive patterns for BPD's.  As a T told me 10 years ago... . "she's pathological."  That means she will keep doing it over and over and over... . in a pattern.  I actually watched her do it with other men she cheated on me with.  The lure in, especially, and then the clinger and the hater... . and then back and forth.

BPD isn't merely about "crazy behavior."  There's a pathology to it.  There's manipulation in it.  I used to get all angry and down when I would feel like she was stealing everyone away.  And then I realized that she was.  It's wasn't "in my head".  That is part of her pathology.  She has to be the center of attention.  She does do things to try and garner adoration and admiration for herself.  She loves that her son and his friends always want to hang out with her.  Of course they do... . she's "cool" and she essentially flirts with them!  I believe my uBPDexw has traits consistent with NPD and Histrionic PD, too.  They seem to overlap quite a bit.  Anyway, my point is that it isn't merely about emotional dysregulation.  There's a game, a pathology, a path she takes that she will take over and over and over.  It may develop quickly, it may develop slowly, but eventually the same person will come out. 
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AimingforMastery
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 12:58:06 AM »



All I will say... .   is that in my opinion without hard core therapy it does not get better.

Good luck... .
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Fanie
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2014, 05:22:27 AM »

OOE:

My assumption (as it was with my wiff)

Meaning earlier on in your relationship (lets say 10 years ago), [here it was good 10 points]

the "downs" was not as bad as it is now ?

and as the years passed on all "new downs" got worse [down to 8] {staying... . }

and worse everytime [down to 6] ? {undecided}

and a year or so later [down to 2]

Until it reaches the rock bottom as it is with her now with her [rockbottom 0]and this is where u finaly packed you bag ... .

{buggered off}

?
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OutOfEgypt
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2014, 09:24:43 AM »

In some ways, it did get worse over time.  There was a time earlier on in the relationship where she was actually semi-functional -was even the 'room mom' helper in two of our childrens' classrooms, when they were much smaller.  Of course, then she told me how the teacher in our son's class tried to kiss her.  Hmmm... . again the other person's fault, or because she "puts it out there?"

However, I remember talking to her sister during one of our divorce attempts.  Her sister explained to me that she's been like "this" long before I knew her.  Her sister doesn't know what BPD is, but I knew what she meant.  The sexual obsession, the volatile emotions and behavior, the drama, and in particular she was referring to her distancing, emotionally "checked out" behavior.  She explained that when she would go over to visit her or pick up her son, back before she was married to me and was a single mother, it was much the same thing... . she only saw the back of her head because she was glued to the computer screen all the time... . always chatting it up with someone new.  Trolling for new guys to wrap completely around her.

So, in the cycle of my relationship, there were definite phases (which is why I recommended that article), but she is pretty much the same person.  Some of the behaviors got worse, and certain things triggered that behavior to get worse (such as getting older, feeling her "sexyness" slipping away).

Back in the very beginning of our relationship, we almost split up in the first year.  I was under an immense amount of stress -newly married, new father (to her son), baby coming on the way, all while working full-time and trying to finish up my Masters degree.  Add on top of that this very volatile and needy woman.  That is when my "OCD" symptoms first came out.  That pretty much defined the first half of my relationship, and it made a great scapegoat for her.  She got to act like the model wife and blame it on me and my emotional detachment into "another world" with my obsessing.  Looking back on it, it was an anxious reaction to the feelings of constant demand on me from her.  Everything... . from how much attention I gave her, to how I looked at her, to how I held her hand, was under constant scrutiny and judgment.  Nothing I did was right.  I was even told that I "lied' to her about who I was.  If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

Also, I remember when our first child together was born.  We had this "deal" that we would alternate weekends on who got to sleep in and who would get up with the baby.  Well, within a few weeks it became that I got up all the time.  She would sleep ALL day... . and claim she was depressed.  She didn't work.  We lived in the downstairs of my parents house, and she would just sleep all the time.  Her son, who was absolutely terrible to handle -acted out ALL the time- was left to my mother to watch, who was already watching my sisters' children while they were at work.  She dumped it all on my mom.  That behavior cycled on and off for the entire marriage.  

But her affairs did become more brazen, but it was always the same pattern.  She found them on the internet (or they found her somehow), they had an intense friendship that very quickly turned into feelings of "love" or at least "lust" to rescue her from her "emotionally vacant" and unhappy marriage, which became quickly sexual... . phone sex, sexual texting and emailing, nude pictures... . and as her obsession with this new guy increased, she would be on the phone with them all the time.  With her last affair, I have a phone bill that showed in one month she logged over 14,000 minutes talking to this one guy.  That is over 8 hours a day.  Sometimes they wouldn't even talk, from what she said.  They would just lay there "together" (over the phone).  Anyway, the pattern always led to two things... . 1) it was always going on in the midst of other, less significant sexual relationships -men she wasn't really serious about who just addressed her lustful cravings... . and she liked to have men fight over her, and 2) it always led to some kind of plan for them to meet, usually with them flying out to visit her.  With the last one, she told me and everyone that he was "gay".  He came to visit when I took our children away to visit my parents.

So, I'm not sure how to answer the question.  In some ways things did escalate and become worse.  The degree of lying and deceit.  Her "hating" behavior.  The degree of blame she was able to put on me.  She has in her mind a very clear story of our relationship that explains how and why she did everything, and as more time went by and I "failed" her, the more it fed into that story of how she just 'shut off' after a time and just wanted to 'punish' me.  So, there was a definite progression of things.  In other ways, however, things just morphed.  But when I look at the relationship as a whole, many of the same basic things were there the whole time.

Does this answer your question?  Aside from really loving her and wanting to keep my family alive, one of the things that kept me "hooked", trying harder and harder, was the belief that it was all my fault.  In other words, I bought her "story".  It was only when I started to listen to my own story over the years, really listen to it and realize that her story is skewed and extremely biased, that I began to get fed up with things.  Otherwise... . as long as I felt like I just had to try harder or that it was my fault, I would still be with her, suffering because of her next affair, wondering what is wrong with me.

If I had to list the common threads, it would look like this:

-sexual preoccupation

-constant demand for attention

-thinking that the rules don't apply to her.  she should be able to do what she wants -she's entitled to it- and i should understand that and love her anyway

-distancing, obsessive preoccupation with various escapes from the relationships with me and our children, and responsibility dumping behavior... . someone, even my eldest daughter, would be used as the dumping ground for the responsibilities she didn't want to do because she just wanted to lay in bed, sleep, talk on the phone, or be on Facebook... . or because she is obsessively enmeshed with a new lover.  confronting never did anything except provoke her defenses.

-refusal to take responsibility -any amount of trying to confront her about any of this led to her becoming extremely defensive and essentially gaslighting or bullying you into silence

-raging fits and cruel behavior and words when we were not all keeping the house up the way she demanded.  she even blamed us for her depression... . she wouldn't get out of bed because we were all so bad at keeping the house clean.  when she finally decided to do things about it, she would flip out and throw and break things and yell and scream, while the kids are all crying, until we all got in line and helped her on her manic cleaning spree until all hours of the morning.

-pathological lying

-blaming and projection

-always running away and then coming back when it looked like I might finally "shape up"

-push-pull behavior... . come to close me... . so that I can hurt you and push you away.

-though she would feel very confident when she wanted to dump me, when she felt me getting sick of things and emotionally moving away she would become this very sweet, sensual, mutual person again... . until she felt that I was "hooked" and commited again, at which time she went back to being completely passive in the relationship, expecting everything revolve around her, getting her way, and then blaming me for it and everything else.

-crazy spending sprees.  I have a good job with good money, and we never had any money.  always in debt.

-grandiose dreams of being rich so as to be able to do what she wants and "help" the people less fortunate.

-utter inability to stick to ANY of her goals... . with all of her sputtering plans, whether going back to college or staring up a small business, she would never follow through... . and somehow it was always my fault.  Also, she would change her plans on what she wanted to do like a baby changes a diaper.

-erratic, impuslive, crazy driving

-skin picking... . she would sit for hours in front of a mirror and pick her skin on her arms and legs until it looked like hamburger

-constant drama and hatred and bitterness toward someone who wronged her.  her relationships with outside friends and her birth-family have been like a roller-coaster or a revolving-door.  this put all of us in the family always in a position where we felt isolated because we were expected to comply with her point of view and be on her "side."
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 10:56:21 AM »

My wife's acting out with guys didn't seem to follow any sort of trend over time; I can't speak to that.

My wife's dysregulations and her abuse of me did follow an escalating pattern. I'd guess that she was more stressed (various sources) and the effect on her was somewhat cumulative, especially since her (BPD-ish) coping mechanisms created more stress!

The pattern of escalation I observed is one of abuse and control. My wife started out with verbal/emotional abuse. It was getting more frequent, and more intense. I was slapped a couple times. Shifting to physical abuse was the next step of escalation.

The good news is that it can turn around. My wife did realize that she was being abusive, and so did I. I started enforcing boundaries, mainly leaving when a conversation became an argument... . rapidly on its way to being abusive... . I'd seem the pattern so many times before.

Someone who had been in two long abusive marriages... . the first physically abusive, and the second only emotionally/verbally (both probably NPD) told me that this sort of abuse isn't stable--it either gets worse or gets better.

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AimingforMastery
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 11:09:16 AM »

The good news is that it can turn around. My wife did realize that she was being abusive, and so did I. I started enforcing boundaries, mainly leaving when a conversation became an argument... . rapidly on its way to being abusive... . I'd seem the pattern so many times before.

Someone who had been in two long abusive marriages... . the first physically abusive, and the second only emotionally/verbally (both probably NPD) told me that this sort of abuse isn't stable--it either gets worse or gets better.

Excellent points, especially about leaving the conversation as soon as it gets to argument - I am now seeing that when that happens it is only one step away from abuse beginning... .

YOU HAVE TO STEP AWAY at the first sign of an argument.

Very hard to do if you feel hurt or have genuine needs not being met.
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OutOfEgypt
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 11:41:49 AM »

Excerpt
The good news is that it can turn around. My wife did realize that she was being abusive, and so did I. I started enforcing boundaries, mainly leaving when a conversation became an argument... . rapidly on its way to being abusive... . I'd seem the pattern so many times before.

That is good, and I saw some of that when I was married (and even still in my dealings with my ex).  I stopped getting engaged in her tantrums and acting out behavior.  I didn't play that game.  I set better boundaries.  However, I think the overall effectiveness depends on a case-by-case basis.  In my experience, my ex hates boundaries.  She sees them as terribly rejecting and threatening, so it always provokes something -no matter how calmly you try to do it.  And it didn't stop the lying, gaslighting, projecting, and all of that.

The thing I want to guard against is the idea that "well, if I learned to be better in this or that area, I could have saved the marriage/relationship".  I think that is dangerous because many of us ALREADY beat ourselves up with thinking we failed (and the BPD spouse/SO helps!).  In fact, I can hear my ex wife's voice in the back of my head telling me "If you were more like this or that, I would have responded better and things would have been different."  But that would just be her trying to make me responsible for her behavior, again.  Looking back, could I have done anything differently?  Yup.  Could I have been different?  Yup.  But I concluded that it would not have changed her, and I probably would have just left sooner... . like 12 years sooner.

Case in point... . my ex wife now does to my teenage daughter some of the things she did to me... . mainly the neglect and dumping her responsibilities on her.  My daughter gets so mad at her mother, but I asked her if she has told her how she feels, and she said she stopped doing it.  I asked why, and she explained that mommy always justifies herself and doesn't listen.  Yup.  Same thing as with me.  Sometimes, NOTHING works.  It really depends on the person.  This is why nobody can tell you to stay or go.  We can just share our experiences.  

In my experience, I've never met a more soul-destroying person.  She has a way out of and around everything that would ever cast a spotlight on her behavior.  My ultimate boundary was to say "No more. I'm done."  I have other good boundaries, now, with her -as we co-parent our children.  But it is easier because the enmeshment is not there like it was.  I remember reading books on boundaries, and it was incredibly hard to set up even the slightest boundary and stick to it because of the degree of enmeshment and confusion I had lived in for so long.  It's like you become absorbed into them -something they want (though they might deny it), and something sadly we want, too.

The enmeshment is the real issue, in my opinion... . the behaviors, and our enabling, stems from the enmeshment and living in a situation that casts constant doubt and judgment on our feelings, perceptions, and values.  This is why my daughters can see things much more clearly than I could.  Their bond is primarily with me, not with their mother, so they have more ability to "see" and feel the appropriate feelings of anger and pain because they have a bond with a much healthier person who validates and has compassion towawrd their identity and feelings.

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 11:52:23 AM »

That is good, and I saw some of that when I was married (and even still in my dealings with my ex).  I stopped getting engaged in her tantrums and acting out behavior.  I didn't play that game.  I set better boundaries.  However, I think the overall effectiveness depends on a case-by-case basis.  In my experience, my ex hates boundaries.  She sees them as terribly rejecting and threatening, so it always provokes something -no matter how calmly you try to do it.  And it didn't stop the lying, gaslighting, projecting, and all of that.

I agree that boundary enforcement cannot stop bad behavior (in somebody else).

Boundary enforcement will protect YOU from the consequences of their bad behavior, and that is the best reason to do it.

It will more-or-less remove the reward for the bad behavior (the relief from her own negative feelings provided by blaming me for them instead)... . providing an opportunity for her to try something different. (My wife later told me that it sent her into a horrible state where she turned all the anger against her self before she learned something different. Tough times.)

However that change is completely her choice to take or not. When you say that your ex wouldn't have made that change, whatever you did, I believe you. Many members here have switched to using boundary enforcement. Some had their partner stand down. Others had their partner blow up and are now split.
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OutOfEgypt
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 11:59:34 AM »

GreyKitty, seriously... . kudos to you that boundary enforcement has helped!  That is really good.  I'm glad she has been responsive to that.

Excerpt
Boundary enforcement will protect YOU from the consequences of their bad behavior, and that is the best reason to do it.

I absolutely agree.
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AimingforMastery
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 11:29:11 PM »

This all terribly distressing to read  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Tonight she called and told me how we weren't right for each other and generally laid into me. So lessons learned I excused myself almost immediately and got off the phone. She texted - taking responsibility sorry I am in a bad place, best not to talk now... .

Progress?

But then 2 hours later she called and was all nice and sweet. why?

She wanted something.
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2014, 12:31:07 PM »

This all terribly distressing to read  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Tonight she called and told me how we weren't right for each other and generally laid into me. So lessons learned I excused myself almost immediately and got off the phone. She texted - taking responsibility sorry I am in a bad place, best not to talk now... .

Progress?

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) ABSOLUTELY!

Pat yourself on the back for how you dealt with it!

You avoided a really nasty encounter... . and she owned her behavior. A big step for her too!

Excerpt
But then 2 hours later she called and was all nice and sweet. why?

She wanted something.

For a pwBPD, (or anyone!) moods (near rage, blaming you for everything) are temporary. For the pwBPD, once those feelings are gone, they are pretty much forgotten and not acknowledged.

So this acting like it never happened is pretty normal... . and not all that harmful either. Try to accept that it goes like this.
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OutOfEgypt
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2014, 02:42:17 PM »

Excerpt
She texted - taking responsibility sorry I am in a bad place, best not to talk now... .  Progress?

I think it depends on how it was said.  You know her far better than any of us, so one person can say "Yes, progress" while another can say, "Hmm... not sure".  Only you have that perception and intuition about *how* she is saying that because only you know her.  

In my situations, my wife at the time would often blow up on me, and how she responded afterwards varied.  Sometimes she would say nothing and act as if it never happened, other times after the blowout she would be mad that I didn't listen to what she said, other times she would say, "Sorry... . I know I was not being very nice... . " but it came out more like, "I'm sorry... . but aren't I cute and you don't want to be mad at me? *batts eyelashes*" or "I'm sorry... . but can't you hurry up and forget about it now and pretend it never happened?"  There was obvious discomfort and anxiety in her because she knew I was angry.  And please, I'm not trying to paint her out as a sociopath.  I don't think they are without conscience.  I just think their conscience is drowned out by all of this other stuff.  But there was almost never (if ever) a real ownership in the sense that she gave me the time and space to feel angry or hurt.  And there was never ownership in the sense that she actually would recognize patterns and try to do something about it.  If she ever said something like, "*sigh* I'm really in a bad place," it was so that I would come running and say, "Awww... . what's wrong?" (thus totally shifting the focus OFF her actions and my feelings of being hurt by those actions and ONTO HER as some kind of poor victim of circumstances)

For you or I, when we do something wrong we will say we are sorry and wonder if there is anything we can do to make it better -for the other person- even if it means just giving them space to let their anger blow over.  Though, of course nobody likes to be disliked by someone they care about, so that can motivate us, too.  We feel like we did wrong, and we care and want them back, but we know that is up to them so we generally let the other person come to us when they want to return.  With my experience with my BPD ex wife, it wasn't like that.  When she said she was sorry it was always on condition that I let it go immediately and thought she was "good" again.  If I didn't immediately forget everything and bury my negative feelings, she would enrage more and take back her apology.  In other words, it was more about her feelings of shame and rejection/abandonment than it was about remorse for how she hurt me.

The one time I really felt she was genuinely sorry for anything she did was when I busted her in an affair and kicked her out of the house.  The next day she called me and we talked for four hours and she cried and told me she was so sorry she hurt me.  I believe her... . at least... . I believe as far as she is capable of feeling sorry, she was.  That was probably the only time in the 15 years I've known her that I really felt it was truly genuine, unless it was for something incidental like accidentally stepping on my foot (ha... but even then she would normally say, "MOOVE, STUPID!".

But I agree with Grey Kitty that YOU DID THE RIGHT THING, and if her response is genuine, that is a small but crucial step in turning around an ocean liner.
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2014, 12:31:58 AM »

Excerpt
She texted - taking responsibility sorry I am in a bad place, best not to talk now... .  Progress?

I think it depends on how it was said.  You know her far better than any of us, so one person can say "Yes, progress" while another can say, "Hmm... not sure".  Only you have that perception and intuition about *how* she is saying that because only you know her.  

In my situations, my wife at the time would often blow up on me, and how she responded afterwards varied.  Sometimes she would say nothing and act as if it never happened, other times after the blowout she would be mad that I didn't listen to what she said, other times she would say, "Sorry... . I know I was not being very nice... . " but it came out more like, "I'm sorry... . but aren't I cute and you don't want to be mad at me? *batts eyelashes*" or "I'm sorry... . but can't you hurry up and forget about it now and pretend it never happened?"  There was obvious discomfort and anxiety in her because she knew I was angry.  And please, I'm not trying to paint her out as a sociopath.  I don't think they are without conscience.  I just think their conscience is drowned out by all of this other stuff.  But there was almost never (if ever) a real ownership in the sense that she gave me the time and space to feel angry or hurt.  And there was never ownership in the sense that she actually would recognize patterns and try to do something about it.  If she ever said something like, "*sigh* I'm really in a bad place," it was so that I would come running and say, "Awww... . what's wrong?" (thus totally shifting the focus OFF her actions and my feelings of being hurt by those actions and ONTO HER as some kind of poor victim of circumstances)

For you or I, when we do something wrong we will say we are sorry and wonder if there is anything we can do to make it better -for the other person- even if it means just giving them space to let their anger blow over.  Though, of course nobody likes to be disliked by someone they care about, so that can motivate us, too.  We feel like we did wrong, and we care and want them back, but we know that is up to them so we generally let the other person come to us when they want to return.  With my experience with my BPD ex wife, it wasn't like that.  When she said she was sorry it was always on condition that I let it go immediately and thought she was "good" again.  If I didn't immediately forget everything and bury my negative feelings, she would enrage more and take back her apology.  In other words, it was more about her feelings of shame and rejection/abandonment than it was about remorse for how she hurt me.

The one time I really felt she was genuinely sorry for anything she did was when I busted her in an affair and kicked her out of the house.  The next day she called me and we talked for four hours and she cried and told me she was so sorry she hurt me.  I believe her... . at least... . I believe as far as she is capable of feeling sorry, she was.  That was probably the only time in the 15 years I've known her that I really felt it was truly genuine, unless it was for something incidental like accidentally stepping on my foot (ha... but even then she would normally say, "MOOVE, STUPID!".

But I agree with Grey Kitty that YOU DID THE RIGHT THING, and if her response is genuine, that is a small but crucial step in turning around an ocean liner.

Thanks for this. Increasingly want to not talk to her.

Still deciding though. I see the progress but too many wounds. Would love 2 or 3 months off.
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2014, 09:05:17 AM »

Excerpt
Still deciding though. I see the progress but too many wounds. Would love 2 or 3 months off.

Can you do that?  I realize she will have a hissy fit if you do, but can you seriously take a month off?

That is what helped me decide.  I was doing therapy, too, but it was when my wife at the time decided she was going to move away (6 hour drive) to a friends house because her friend had cancer.  I thought it was noble, but I also told her that I thought it was crappy because she was not being a mother to her own kids.  It would be one thing if she was a functional mom and then wanted to take a break and go help a friend.  But she was sitting in bed all day, sleeping mostly, getting the kids (and me) to bring her food, playing on Facebook, reading mindless things, and dumping everything on me in spite of attempts to confront, threaten, or refuse to do it (but really I couldn't... . the kids need food, clothes, to go to school, etc.).  So, I told her how I felt.

Of course, that made me an utterly selfish human being.  She still, to this day, cannot see it.  But to make a long story short, she went down there and wound up living with another girl-friend who had kids.  She did help her cancer-friend go to her appointments, but two things happened that I KNEW would happen:  1) Her relationship with her cancer-friend fell apart.  She cannot have any close relationships that survive too long.  2) She wound up being a nanny to the kids she lived with.  Got them ready for school, made them breakfast, drove them to school, picked them up, made dinner, did laundry, took them to the part -basically all of the stuff she NEVER did for about 12 years, aside from a few momentary sputters.  That really angered me.

Annnnnnnyway... . so, she went down there for 6 weeks until she finally had a blowout with her friend.  Like the good enabler I was, in spite of my protest I still drove down there and visited with the kids twice.  But something happened.  At first I worried about what she might be doing.  I know her.  And I was right... . I found out that one of her old male "friends" she tried to reconnect with went to visit her and tried to kiss her (at least, that's all she admitted happened).  But I started to notice how much better I felt with her gone.  After the first two or three weeks, I started to feel... . free.  I started to get into my own groove, and I started to FINALLY have the space to reflect on the relationship.  My T told me the progress I made was dramatic during that time-frame.  I also read a workbook called "the One-Way Relationship Workbook", and I saw SO much in there that reminded me of my wife (who may be NPD too).  See, I never had that chance before -it's almost like they dont WANT you to have that kind of space for that very reason.  They want you constantly stuck in paralysis dealing with something about them.

So... . taking time out to reflect on the relationship was HUGE for me.  Maybe your situation is not as bad as mine.  Maybe there is hope.  Maybe there isn't.  :)uring that time, I finally came to the conclusion that it didn't matter what I did to "fix" myself -the marriage would not change unless she did.  When she came home, I confronted her and told her that she needed to get professional help or I was done with the marriage.  She got sad, angry, and then mocked me.  She joked with a friend who worked at a mental health facility, twisting and misunderstanding my words.  And then she filed for divorce behind my back so as to "protect herself."
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2014, 11:50:07 AM »

Thanks for this. Increasingly want to not talk to her.

Still deciding though. I see the progress but too many wounds. Would love 2 or 3 months off.

Time apart is good, 'tho asking for a couple months is definitely provocative, or at least rocking the boat. It might be better to suggest a therapeutic separation, although that is similarly risky.

While you are still together and working at it, you can at least disengage from fights. (a little time apart)

I'd also recommend planning some regular solo or separate activities for yourself that get you away... . an hour most days, or an evening or two each week.

Things like this will help re-charge you and make it easier for you to improve the time you do have together.
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2014, 12:48:21 PM »

Excerpt
Still deciding though. I see the progress but too many wounds. Would love 2 or 3 months off.

Can you do that?  I realize she will have a hissy fit if you do, but can you seriously take a month off?

That is what helped me decide.  I was doing therapy, too, but it was when my wife at the time decided she was going to move away (6 hour drive) to a friends house because her friend had cancer.  I thought it was noble, but I also told her that I thought it was crappy because she was not being a mother to her own kids.  It would be one thing if she was a functional mom and then wanted to take a break and go help a friend.  But she was sitting in bed all day, sleeping mostly, getting the kids (and me) to bring her food, playing on Facebook, reading mindless things, and dumping everything on me in spite of attempts to confront, threaten, or refuse to do it (but really I couldn't... . the kids need food, clothes, to go to school, etc.).  So, I told her how I felt.

Of course, that made me an utterly selfish human being.  She still, to this day, cannot see it.  But to make a long story short, she went down there and wound up living with another girl-friend who had kids.  She did help her cancer-friend go to her appointments, but two things happened that I KNEW would happen:  1) Her relationship with her cancer-friend fell apart.  She cannot have any close relationships that survive too long.  2) She wound up being a nanny to the kids she lived with.  Got them ready for school, made them breakfast, drove them to school, picked them up, made dinner, did laundry, took them to the part -basically all of the stuff she NEVER did for about 12 years, aside from a few momentary sputters.  That really angered me.

Annnnnnnyway... . so, she went down there for 6 weeks until she finally had a blowout with her friend.  Like the good enabler I was, in spite of my protest I still drove down there and visited with the kids twice.  But something happened.  At first I worried about what she might be doing.  I know her.  And I was right... . I found out that one of her old male "friends" she tried to reconnect with went to visit her and tried to kiss her (at least, that's all she admitted happened).  But I started to notice how much better I felt with her gone.  After the first two or three weeks, I started to feel... . free.  I started to get into my own groove, and I started to FINALLY have the space to reflect on the relationship.  My T told me the progress I made was dramatic during that time-frame.  I also read a workbook called "the One-Way Relationship Workbook", and I saw SO much in there that reminded me of my wife (who may be NPD too).  See, I never had that chance before -it's almost like they dont WANT you to have that kind of space for that very reason.  They want you constantly stuck in paralysis dealing with something about them.

So... . taking time out to reflect on the relationship was HUGE for me.  Maybe your situation is not as bad as mine.  Maybe there is hope.  Maybe there isn't.  :)uring that time, I finally came to the conclusion that it didn't matter what I did to "fix" myself -the marriage would not change unless she did.  When she came home, I confronted her and told her that she needed to get professional help or I was done with the marriage.  She got sad, angry, and then mocked me.  She joked with a friend who worked at a mental health facility, twisting and misunderstanding my words.  And then she filed for divorce behind my back so as to "protect herself."

Thanks man and thanks Kitty.

Well I drafted the letter today and wrote it in the positive saying how much I loved her and was finally going to giver what she had asked for to be able to step back and come back to me when she felt ready whether it was a couple of days a week or 2 or even a month.

I did not send it, but felt good about it. I also set out the things I wanted and needed and praised for getting so much better at them; honesty, being stable & loving, loyal and no recycling.

The facts are she has done close to 9 months of EMDR now and I do see signs of growth but it hurts me so very much when she lays into me when I am giving and giving and giving all I have. I am going gray and getting sick because of it.

As you know the challenge is how do you express this pain and need without them being invalidated and triggered.

She may not be fully BPD and I do see signs of growth, but PTSD is definitely there.

So now she wants to see changes in our dynamic and wants us to go see someone who can help her rebuild my trust in her, in addition to her EMDR. so it all sounds great.

But after being slammed at the weekend after giving so f*&*in much, I am still in shock.

As we were talking a truck drove past saying "TURN OVER A WHOLE NEW LEAF" and last night I again dreamt about someone else who I have never had a relationship about but I have cried tears of relief in my dreams when she appears and is kind to me.

So still torn - I see the progress in her, but I do fear it is destroying me (chest pain, neck pains now, less sleep). An EMDR commitment like this is huge but I feel horrid. She says she is totally truthful and she certainly has told me things no gf would as it reveals how bad she has lied. It indicates she really has come clean, but who knows for sure.

Open to advice
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2014, 01:46:09 PM »



I think a lot of it just comes down to emotional maturity... .

She called and here am I feeling anxious, and she is all loving... .

What I notice is she wants to be there for me, she takes responsibility for having caused real pain and she says all the right things - like that and also like how much she gets upset when she misses my calls (read me worrying she is avoiding the calls) and she explained why she turns Skype push off on her i phone due to work and you know it all makes sense (I hope)

I say I hope as she has done bad things that would make anyone not trust her

When I mention that she agrees. It seems a normal BPD would say "not me" sod off etc.

The reason I say emotional maturity is when I share my feelings I say I feel fragile she says why cant we just be in the moment. Si responded by saying when you have a PTSD attack what would you say I f I said that? I see in her reaction (video Skype) that she gets that and feels bad, and she says sorry, but I also see she cant cope with that need in me yet like a full adult would - so she has to take some space.

Then she calls back and apologises... .
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2014, 04:47:36 PM »



So maybe it is BPD... .

as then after that she wants to talk and it turns into low grade abuse and telling me how bad the relationship is.  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

... . despite my best efforts to get off the phone.

It is that low grade abuse and generally provoked anxiety that I cant do any more

She can at least now see going from being very loving in one day to threatening the relationship creates the very anxiety in me she does not want me to have.

The problem is I am worn out by it. It is a cycle of nice, nasty... . and much of it seems to have to do with her reacting to having had to face her stuff recently, as so much of it sounds like "I'm fed up with being bad... . "

I feel like I've been hit by a truck. (again)
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2014, 05:06:43 PM »

So maybe it is BPD... .

as then after that she wants to talk and it turns into low grade abuse and telling me how bad the relationship is.  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)

... . despite my best efforts to get off the phone.

It is that low grade abuse and generally provoked anxiety that I cant do any more

She can at least now see going from being very loving in one day to threatening the relationship creates the very anxiety in me she does not want me to have.

The problem is I am worn out by it. It is a cycle of nice, nasty... . and much of it seems to have to do with her reacting to having had to face her stuff recently, as so much of it sounds like "I'm fed up with being bad... . "

I feel like I've been hit by a truck. (again)

Is it still BPD?

- unstable, hot/cold & push/pull - yes, but less so

- lies? - in the past yes, jury out on this one now

- fidelity - yes, assuming she is being truthful (always been faithful physically in relationships)

- impulsive ? - food yes, other things gradually much less so

- abusive - yes consistent pattern of lashing out at me, often for fantastical reasons

- weak / chronic lack of sense of self - yes (but seems to be improving as she is now saying more of what she needs)

- fantasy thinking/ disassociating - yes (but now aware of it)

- suicidal comments/self harming - yes, but I don't hear about it any more

- PTSD / panic attacks - yes, once or twice a week

So I suppose the questions are at what cost has the progress been to my health? And have we turned the corner?

Should I bail when so much has been improved. I just hate feeling so stressed & anxious... .

Understanding it helps, but not all that much - a truck still feels like a truck

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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2014, 05:51:42 PM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) I don't see you trying to fix her or improve her. Dunno if you were doing this before or not, but it is a surefire way to cause problems for yourself if you do it much.

What you have is a tough choice, AfM.   You are looking it straight in the face.

Nobody here can make it for you. Here are a couple questions for you to focus on:

What can you do right now to protect yourself from the abuse in this r/s?

Is it enough for you to feel safe continuing the r/s?

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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2014, 06:09:56 PM »

Thanks Kitty - appreciated.

I am not sure how to understand the fix her or improve her comments. I am getting old and senile!

Best I can say on that subject is I don't like to rescue but did set a boundary get PTSD therapy or I'm out. I set that in late 2012 and she did it.

So I'm not her therapist and just focus on getting her the right doctors, health insurance, medical treatment etc etc as she has medical issues as well.

I do very much appreciate you saying that I am facing this issue head on, thank you.

I don't want to lose someone who is getting well, clearly loves me (to the best of their ability) and could be very grateful for me for sticking with her throughout, but I can't cope with much (any) more... .

Equally I don't want to keep someone who I snot getting well and will do this forever.

Do the improvements I mentioned appear genuine and meaningful?

Thanks in advance, Kitty and all
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2014, 06:10:13 PM »

.
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2014, 07:10:39 PM »

Sorry, man.  I agree.  It is a choice you've gotta make because only you know her, only you live with this, and only you live with the decision you make.
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« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2014, 07:39:47 PM »



I agree 100% its my choice to make.

The questions I need help with are; do these changes sound like real progress... . ? Does it look like less  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) ?
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« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2014, 07:59:29 PM »

That's the hard one, too.  We each have different experiences, even though there are obviously some seriously common threads.  Each person is different even though the disorder has the same basic pathology.  Only you can see how entrenched it is.

But here's maybe another way to think of it that you may not be processing.  Everything is hinging on how *she* is doing and where *she* is at and what *she* needs.  Your course of action depends on trying to figure out her.  I definitely understand that, but maybe you are stuck because its sort of an endless rumination.  You could analyze it to death forever without really looking at what you are avoiding looking at:  what do YOU need?  How and what do YOU feel?  How tired are YOU?  :)o YOU want to take a bit of a break to process YOUR feelings and where YOU are at?

And I know how it goes... . we are AFRAID of thinking this way.  We are afraid to do things like this for ourselves because we know, somewhere deep down, that they probably won't stick around if we *really* start making decisions for OUR health and sanity that don't first and foremost take into account and anticipate their every possible reaction.  That is the definition of walking on eggshells, though, isn't it?

I just have my own experiences and the things I've read to go on, but it sounds like you could use some kind of avenue for listening to your own voice instead of hanging on which direction she is going... . as hard as that is.  Because I know you think... . "BUT WHAT IF... . "  I know... . "But what if I actually think for myself about what I need instead of focusing on her, and what if that winds up ending the relationship and I miss my chance with her?"  Well... . what if... . I just know that I lived through YEARS of what-if.  In the end, a healthy person or a person who is taking responsibility for how they are and still wants to be with you would understand that you have needs and wants and feelings of your own.  A healthy partner would respect those feelings and even see their own culpability in what caused them.  They would give you the time you needed even if it was uncomfortable.  In other words, if she's really going to get well, she will understand.  If she won't, then she won't.

I went through something like this after my divorce.  Suddenly, she promised to get therapy.  I was shocked and in disbelief.  And then she started going.  If I was smart and really stuck to my own feelings and perceptions, I would have been happy but insisted on clear boundaries and a "probation" period of sorts.  But nope... . I didn't.  Soon we were sleeping together, and it was like a new birth in our relationship.  Problem is... . within two months she invited herself back into my house and then it allllll went downhill from there.  Same stuff.  But why did I let it happen?  I know why.  I was so excited to have the chance of having her that I was willling to give up anything, including my own identity and feelings and gut intuition for my own protection and safety.  And I did that because I knew, deep down, she would not be able to handle any kind of probationary period.  No sex?  Are you kidding?  Need to slow things down?  She would bolt and throw a fit and be sleeping with someone else and blame me for it.  So, I knew... . but I didn't want to hear.  I knew, deep down, that the only way to "have" her was to again relent and agree to the unwritten contract that I allow her to have control of the relationship and just try to cope with everything that falls on me.  I knew that the alternative was ending the relationship again.  I knew there was no way she would stick around for mutual respect.
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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2014, 09:39:30 PM »

I don't want to lose someone who is getting well, clearly loves me (to the best of their ability) and could be very grateful for me for sticking with her throughout

I understand this part--and I don't have much to suggest for you.

Her improvement will be due to her actions and choices... . and you have very limited influence upon it.

Excerpt
but I can't cope with much (any) more... .

This is the area where I'd suggest you focus. Your coping is your actions, and your choices to make. If you cope better, you will be able to stay with her longer while she's improving. In addition, you will find more clarity about whether you should keep trying longer in this r/s or not.

Have you read the Lessons for members who are staying in their relationships yet? If not, give it a start. Also, don't let the name "Staying" scare you away from that board. When we say staying, we mean we are staying right now and working to improve the relationship. It may not be forever.

I'd suggest that you look at boundaries closely if you haven't already.

A good one to start enforcing is not listening to verbal abuse (low grade or screaming; either one is destructive). That means when you notice that the conversation as gone there, either quietly announce that you aren't going to stick around for (whatever name you give for verbal abuse... . sometimes that phrase is unnecessarily triggering), and leave the conversation.

Many of us have found that consistent enforcement of that boundary means that we stop hearing the abuse. In most cases, when our partner stops getting the release of having somebody to spew the abuse onto, they stop trying after a while.

This sort of improved coping on your part is where I'd recommend you put your efforts.

If you are more specific on exactly WHAT is pushing you to your limits, we can offer suggestions on how to improve that.
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2014, 12:29:47 AM »



Thank you both very much. I need to take a break from this for a little bit now, but your answers have been very helpful.

I will come back a little bit later on... .

Thank you again, very helpful
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« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2014, 01:59:42 AM »

Hi All

I posted the following topic some time ago and got a few responses

    ":)OES PBD GET WORSE WHEN UNTREATED ?"

The post did not conclusively answer the question, however, I thought

that there was a little agreement that it does get worse... .

So my next question is: HOW DO YOU PREVENT IT TO GET WORSE ?

(over the longer period of time)

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