Why do they never change?

[zenwexler]

Why is it that BPD's don't grow and change yet "regular" people learn and grow? And why do I think my ex will be the exception and suddenly change?

2.5 months NC. Going a little crazy. Definitely fantasize about being with her more and more frequently. I really do want to unblock her.

[BacknthSaddle]

I would argue that, once people are firmly into adulthood anyway, most are pretty set in their personality structure and not a whole lot of change occurs without a concerted effort. 

From what I've read of your posts, it's a fair assumption that your ex is not making a concerted effort to change. And why should she? As long as she can keep getting easy narcissistic supply, there's no incentive to change. She's the same person she was 2.5 months ago, and will hurt you the same ways she has in the past if you contact.  There is no shame in breaking NC; we are addicts, and relapse is part and parcel with addiction.  But do your best to resist the urge.  You are likely to feel worse in the aftermath. 

[Infared]

I think it was damage at a young age. Mine's Father ran off with someone else   when she was five years old.  He took the family dog, too. Her Mom was a TOTAL sweetheart... .and I know that it really damaged Mom, too. So my ex had to live with her pain  :'(  and the pain of her Mother  :'(  , miss her puppy brother and try to win the love of her father. Can you imagine what it must have been like for a sensitive 5-year-old to process THAT?  To add to the mess... .the woman that Dad ran off to was a TOTAL beeeeeaaaatch     who treated my ex and her Mom with contempt and it got even worse when they had children.  

So I am not a shrink or phycologist but... .I can't even begin to imagine the damage done there... .but hey... .she got to take a lot of it out on me. ... .but... .

NO MORE!   (Hope I helped her. I was there for her, and she abused me again, and again).  

I had to make the choice that I had had enough. Time to love me.  

Zen buddie... .Dey is broken... .we can't fix Dem.

I am sure that something happened with yours at a young age as well. It is a documented part of BPD... .Trauma at a young age.

[zenwexler]

Yeah I know she had a less then stellar up bringing but still very privileged none the less. Which is why I think she wanted to be treated like a princess. Nothing wrong with chivalry but she wanted me to open up the car door and pull her chair out EVERY TIME. I know she's broken. But yet I still try she convince myself that she'll change.

I also found myself saying well let me try and being friends again and wait for her to paint her new bf black so she can paint me white. So sick!

[Split black]

Why is it that BPD's don't grow and change yet "regular" people learn and grow? And why do I think my ex will be the exception and suddenly change?

2.5 months NC. Going a little crazy. Definitely fantasize about being with her more and more frequently. I really do want to unblock her.

Dont waver unless you want to be in a world of misery and start over like day one. Trust me on this... .recycled 6 times in a year.

They dont change... .they just get sneakier.

[BacknthSaddle]

I also found myself saying well let me try and being friends again and wait for her to paint her new bf black so she can paint me white. So sick!

It's not sick man.  We've all been there.  But, in the spirit of change, it is of course a good time to ask yourself why on earth you have these impulses, why you actually hope that this emotional terrorist re-enters your life.  This is an experience that can lead US to grow and change.  That's the only positive we can get from it. 

I find the princess ("queen" thing interesting because it is so fundamentally child-like, another manifestation of the state of arrested development that pwBPD are in.  Mine was like this; talked about how "spoiled" she was as if it was adorable.  Was obsessed with Disney movies, particularly those about princesses.  Couldn't wait to by Frozen on DVD after taking her ex-stepdaughter to see it in the theater multiple times.

Last note: she won't necessarily paint you white.  It depends on how much shame she feels over your relationship, and also on how easy it is to get supply for her.  Even if it is difficult, you could remain black and she may still want to have sex with you; this doesn't mean you're white, it's just a way of solidifying the attachment, fusing, feeling "close."  The point is: even if she comes back around, it's going to be bad, and most likely much worse. 

[Caredverymuch]

Why is it that BPD's don't grow and change yet "regular" people learn and grow? And why do I think my ex will be the exception and suddenly change?

2.5 months NC. Going a little crazy. Definitely fantasize about being with her more and more frequently. I really do want to unblock her.

Zen, Im sorry for your internal pain in missing your ex. This is not easy work nor for the light hearted.  We are with you on this.

Why dont they change? Well, have you thought about a reason that they should?

When your emotional intelligence is that of a three year old, the resultant behaviors are satisfactory to that three year old.

Sometimes I think having BPD isn't that bad after all.  What would it feel like to remain in a fantasy state of mind whereby you acquire r/s partner (toy) after r/s partner (toy) whom you require heaps of love and attention-that is joyfully given in spades.  But when that three year tires of that  toy, it is put up on a shelf, forgotten about, and thru tantrums and lashing outs and immature actions of "needing" more, is rewarded with a shiny brand new toy. 

Play with the new toy, break it just like you did the old one in the same exact way, so better put that up on the shelf and take the one you broke a few months ago down off the shelf to play with for a few days. 

Tire of the fact that the toy is broken and would take a bit of effort to fix, so discard that one too.  All the while gaining tons of new friends who think you are a wonderful little child for being so attentive and well behaved and look at that toy box!

Uh oh, the grown ups in your life are starting to require you take accountability for all these broken toys and the tantrums and the acts of selfish behavior... .So, better do something about this... .maybe, threaten to maybe end your life.

Whats there to change for? The toy box and the playground are chuck full of new toys and the helpers always help me to feel safe.

[myself]

They don't change because the disorder is basically a life sentence and their patterns are their prison. When they do have chances to be released/ get paroled, they don't choose to follow through. Too daunting. Too shameful to admit things from their past. Too many reasons to just keep running.

[Blimblam]

they are too scared.

they are scared as hell.

[Tausk]

Zen: Hang in there.  I hate to tell you, but it's going to get more painful before it gets easier.  But it did get better for me as I began to understand and Depersonalize the Disorder.

Why don't they change?  Because it's a Disorder.  And it's a Disorder without any real treatments or meds that can change the root pathology.  Certain areas of the brain never develop.  From what I understand, pwBPD don't really have the capacity to change.  All they can do perhaps lessen the severity of the harm.  It goes well beyond fear, cowardice, or anything personal.  It's hardwired into pwBPD.  Sometimes, at a younger age such as teens, it's been shown that a pwBPD can be broken down and rebuilt.  But for older ones, the only thing left is coping strategies and hope that don't cause themselves or others too much damage. 

But for us, we might as well ask a person with autism or Down's syndrome to change. 

And change is not that easy.  How difficult is it for the "nons" to change.  And we're supposed to be the ones who are without the mental illness... .  How can we expect a pwBPD with a very limited sense of self to change.  They don't know who they are to begin with, how can they change?

Which is also why I believe the concept of "recovery" is a misnomer for pwBPD.  Recover in the AA/NA sense is a recovery of the core essence of a person.  But without a core essence, what is there to recover? 

IMHO the real question is why does it take us "nons" so long to change, including acceptance that this is a Disorder.  A mental illness.  A Debilitation.   Third party observers will say that my ex is Bat Sht Crzy and only a total loon would expect change from her. 

Yet why can't I change?

[Tausk]

Why is it that BPD's don't grow and change yet "regular" people learn and grow? And why do I think my ex will be the exception and suddenly change?

2.5 months NC. Going a little crazy. Definitely fantasize about being with her more and more frequently. I really do want to unblock her.

Zen, Im sorry for your internal pain in missing your ex. This is not easy work nor for the light hearted.  We are with you on this.

Why dont they change? Well, have you thought about a reason that they should?

When your emotional intelligence is that of a three year old, the resultant behaviors are satisfactory to that three year old.

Sometimes I think having BPD isn't that bad after all.  What would it feel like to remain in a fantasy state of mind whereby you acquire r/s partner (toy) after r/s partner (toy) whom you require heaps of love and attention-that is joyfully given in spades.  But when that three year tires of that  toy, it is put up on a shelf, forgotten about, and thru tantrums and lashing outs and immature actions of "needing" more, is rewarded with a shiny brand new toy.  

Play with the new toy, break it just like you did the old one in the same exact way, so better put that up on the shelf and take the one you broke a few months ago down off the shelf to play with for a few days.  

Tire of the fact that the toy is broken and would take a bit of effort to fix, so discard that one too.  All the while gaining tons of new friends who think you are a wonderful little child for being so attentive and well behaved and look at that toy box!

Uh oh, the grown ups in your life are starting to require you take accountability for all these broken toys and the tantrums and the acts of selfish behavior... .So, better do something about this... .maybe, threaten to maybe end your life.

Whats there to change for? The toy box and the playground are chuck full of new toys and the helpers always help me to feel safe.

Do you really think their lives are easy.  Would you exchange worlds with your ex for a heartbeat?

The essence of their existence is the living terrors of the nightmare existence of a perpetually traumatized three year old.  A pwBPD lives in constant terror at a level that if you and I experienced it, we would probably go mad in a instant.

They have limited capacity to deal with a world where they know they are different, and they know that are limited, but they don't really know why or how they are limited.  They only have the emotional tools of a fcked up three year old trying to find adult love.  But they can't. They don't know the difference between want and need.  They don't know how to love.  

So all they can do is survive.

And they do not discard us like a child with a new toy.  They flee in terror like a belt-whipped three-year old girl would run from her drunken father who also spends much his time with his hands up her skirt.  

The discarded toy analogy is more appropriate for pwNPD, but that is not this Board.  

This is the essence of a pwBPD is poor sense-of-self, combined with constant shame and terror, with no capacity to address the issues.   There is nothing to envy.

About half of pwBPD will attempt to commit suicide.    Many end up as homeless, or in mental institutions, or jail.  A significant percentage of the street walking prostitutes of both sexes are pwBPD.   Just look into the eyes of some homeless men or women on the streets, and I'll bet my retirement that you'll find your ex in there.

And what does a pwBPD have to look forward to in the long run?  What?  Inevitably, they eventually will collapse into themselves into abject hatred and shame.  Lonely cat ladies or mean old men without any friends or connection.  Only hatred and anger remain.  Even if they find a partner who can't leave, the only part of the connection that survives is hatred and contempt.  Name a single pwBPD who has reached old age and you've said, wow that person has a great life and attitude.  

Understanding the Disorder is one of my cornerstones to depersonalizing the interaction and the damage from the Disorder.

[Caredverymuch]

Why is it that BPD's don't grow and change yet "regular" people learn and grow? And why do I think my ex will be the exception and suddenly change?

2.5 months NC. Going a little crazy. Definitely fantasize about being with her more and more frequently. I really do want to unblock her.

Zen, Im sorry for your internal pain in missing your ex. This is not easy work nor for the light hearted.  We are with you on this.

Why dont they change? Well, have you thought about a reason that they should?

When your emotional intelligence is that of a three year old, the resultant behaviors are satisfactory to that three year old.

Sometimes I think having BPD isn't that bad after all.  What would it feel like to remain in a fantasy state of mind whereby you acquire r/s partner (toy) after r/s partner (toy) whom you require heaps of love and attention-that is joyfully given in spades.  But when that three year tires of that  toy, it is put up on a shelf, forgotten about, and thru tantrums and lashing outs and immature actions of "needing" more, is rewarded with a shiny brand new toy. 

Play with the new toy, break it just like you did the old one in the same exact way, so better put that up on the shelf and take the one you broke a few months ago down off the shelf to play with for a few days. 

Tire of the fact that the toy is broken and would take a bit of effort to fix, so discard that one too.  All the while gaining tons of new friends who think you are a wonderful little child for being so attentive and well behaved and look at that toy box!

Uh oh, the grown ups in your life are starting to require you take accountability for all these broken toys and the tantrums and the acts of selfish behavior... .So, better do something about this... .maybe, threaten to maybe end your life.

Whats there to change for? The toy box and the playground are chuck full of new toys and the helpers always help me to feel safe.

Do you really think their lives are easy.  Would you exchange worlds with your ex for a heartbeat?

The essence of their existence is the living terrors of the nightmare existence of a perpetually traumatized three year old.  A pwBPD lives in constant terror at a level that if you and I experienced it, we would probably go mad in a instant.

They have limited capacity to deal with a world where they know they are different, and they know that are limited, but they don't really know why or how they are limited.  They only have the emotional tools of a fcked up three year old trying to find adult love.  But they can't. They don't know the difference between want and need.  They don't know how to love. 

So all they can do is survive.

And they do not discard us like a child with a new toy.  They flee in terror like a belt-whipped three-year old girl would run from her drunken father who also spends much his time with his hands up her skirt. 

The discarded toy analogy is more appropriate for pwNPD, but that is not this Board. 

This is the essence of a pwBPD is poor sense-of-self, combined with constant shame and terror, with no capacity to address the issues.   There is nothing to envy.

About half of pwBPD will attempt to commit suicide.    Many end up as homeless, or in mental institutions, or jail.  A significant percentage of the street walking prostitutes of both sexes are pwBPD.   Just look into the eyes of some homeless men or women on the streets, and I'll bet my retirement that you'll find your ex in there.

And what does a pwBPD have to look forward to in the long run?  What?  Inevitably, they eventually will collapse into themselves into abject hatred and shame.  Lonely cat ladies or mean old men without any friends or connection.  Only hatred and anger remain.  Even if they find a partner who can't leave, the only part of the connection that survives is hatred and contempt.  Name a single pwBPD who has reached old age and you've said, wow that person has a great life and attitude. 

Understanding the Disorder is one of my cornerstones to depersonalizing the interaction and the damage from the Disorder.

Tausk, let me be very clear. there is nothing to envy. i do not envy bppd, or any disordered groupings of people inherently lacking empathy, including pNPD. which i believe in my experience held a very clear and very obvious overlapping.

and i most certainly, like the majority here, am becoming a de facto walking talking quasi student of a disorder that i never wanted to be a scholar of. look around the subject topics on this board alone. i believe that we all see an incredibly devoted group of people left reeling from a r/s they entered by heart. doing hard work to understand a disorder that we do not have.

i surely am using tools, therapy, meditations, mindfulness,  exercise, EMDR, trigger avoidance, prayer, support groups, empathy, education, forgiveness, and intellect to gain understand of the destruction i was delivered and left with as a reward for being genuinely and fully caring of a disordered other. for my core issues as well.

do I wish I were my ex? yes, on somedays i do. for i am doing heart wrenching debilitating work and i am doing it alone. while he is doing none and continuing to hurt innocent others. including me.

there are days i wish i could dissociate to that degree. and i do feel like a toy. and, he does have a new toy. and he does get away with much. for you see tausk, not every pBPD is alike as we well know but the pBPD that i interacted with is nowhere near the cat lady or street man. he is grandiose. i feel like the street person as the entire goodness of my being has been drained by this interaction. i have fallen down 53 times and gotten up 54, and i am still here. by the grace of god.  reconstructing, while continually using my new found education to depersonalize actions delivered in hurtful and great ways.

if i had a dollar for every minute i spent in understanding with full compassion and great empathy combined with hard and true initiative to support this person, to love this person. and get this person help, i would donate the millions i earned to this site. to more research. to those cat ladies and those street homeless.

but, i am working on getting up 54+1 while doing damage control of a lot.

do i empathize and do i wish to fully detach with full depersonalizing of the interaction and the damage from the disorder? every waking moment of the day.

I admire you are there. sincerely. wholly. wait for me there. please.

[Infared]

Why is it that BPD's don't grow and change yet "regular" people learn and grow? And why do I think my ex will be the exception and suddenly change?

2.5 months NC. Going a little crazy. Definitely fantasize about being with her more and more frequently. I really do want to unblock her.

Zen, Im sorry for your internal pain in missing your ex. This is not easy work nor for the light hearted.  We are with you on this.

Why dont they change? Well, have you thought about a reason that they should?

When your emotional intelligence is that of a three year old, the resultant behaviors are satisfactory to that three year old.

Sometimes I think having BPD isn't that bad after all.  What would it feel like to remain in a fantasy state of mind whereby you acquire r/s partner (toy) after r/s partner (toy) whom you require heaps of love and attention-that is joyfully given in spades.  But when that three year tires of that  toy, it is put up on a shelf, forgotten about, and thru tantrums and lashing outs and immature actions of "needing" more, is rewarded with a shiny brand new toy.  

Play with the new toy, break it just like you did the old one in the same exact way, so better put that up on the shelf and take the one you broke a few months ago down off the shelf to play with for a few days.  

Tire of the fact that the toy is broken and would take a bit of effort to fix, so discard that one too.  All the while gaining tons of new friends who think you are a wonderful little child for being so attentive and well behaved and look at that toy box!

Uh oh, the grown ups in your life are starting to require you take accountability for all these broken toys and the tantrums and the acts of selfish behavior... .So, better do something about this... .maybe, threaten to maybe end your life.

Whats there to change for? The toy box and the playground are chuck full of new toys and the helpers always help me to feel safe.

WOW!  That is REALLY funny... .but it isn't!  That soo described the person that I was with! They certainly appear to manipulate the people around them in just this fashion. It seems that most of them are physically attractive, too which really helps allow them to play these games. It appears that way, but it could be as Tausk says... .but I agree with you, NPD & BPD can overlap... .and each person is different. It is so hard to truly know who we were with.

[Tausk]

Cared:  I'm not there in nirvana yet    Just in the process like we all are.  And yes there's a spectrum.  

But grandiose and discarded for a new toy sound more like NPD.  Which is infinitely worse, IMHO.  NPD are much more evil and destructive.  NPD feed on consuming others to compliment their overwhelming strong sense of self.  BPD link to other because they feel so little sense of self. In BDSM, NPDs are the Sadistic Doms, BPDs are the Masochistic Subs.  

NPD's as they get older, are still the life of the party, drink with the best, and can still pick up women half their age.  BPD's just collapse into themselves.  If your ex is a pwBPD, he has almost no hope for happiness.  All that that will remain is internal shame and contempt.

Are you sure your ex wasn't NPD?  If so, I'm even more sorry for your pain because that's even more destructive.  But it's a spectrum like you said.  And my ex showed many signs of NPD.  But I know that she was in essence, a pwBPD through and through.  

And if I accept that she had BPD, it helps me to understand that as much as I feel like I was discarded, I wasn't.  It's not what pwBPD do as a general rule.   Things became too confusing, too painful, to terrifying, and too adult for my ex to handle.    So she had to run and find someone else with whom to attach.  She had to because without a sense of self, she wouldn't exist.  

She had to run, just like the belt whipped three year old girl.  Because that's how everything felt to her in the end.

The difference is very important in my understanding of what happened.  And the truth is the vast majority of pwBPD don't discard... .they flee.   Perhaps your ex was different.  I don't know.  

But when I allow my feelings to convince myself that I was discarded and used like an old pair of shoes, I also allow my feelings to feed my anger and resentment, which is unhealthy.     And more importantly, it wasn't the truth.  And obsessing on the misinformation feeds into a cycle of never ending victimization.  Many pay-for-therapy website exploit the discarded victim concept.  Being the victim is easier to accept for me.  It relieves me of the truth and of my responsibility in the interaction.

I understand the pain, the hurt, the confusion, the loss of self, the insanity, the meaninglessness, the loneliness, the depression, the anger... .Almost two years out, and even knowing what I know, I still sent my ex a text telling her that she was an evil cheating sociopath.  Not my proudest moment, but it demonstrated how much I needed to continue to work.  

But for me, being a victim it does not address the true nature of the Disorder.  And for me, understanding the Disorder is what helps me to detach and depersonalize.  And that's why I am here.

[Blimblam]

I want to clear something up on being "discarded" by a pwBPD.  You are dumped and replaced but the reality is the relationship is not over.  They now hold all the power if you remain in contact.  So you have to make the same choice that everyone else does to leave its just the level of devaluing you received may have just been greater by sticking around to be completely disrespected. 

[BorisAcusio]

Cared:  I'm not there in nirvana yet    Just in the process like we all are.  And yes there's a spectrum.  

But grandiose and discarded for a new toy sound more like NPD.  Which is infinitely worse, IMHO.  NPD are much more evil and destructive.



And they do not discard us like a child with a new toy.  They flee in terror like a belt-whipped three-year old girl would run from her drunken father who also spends much his time with his hands up her skirt.

Some like to cast off negative/malignant traits and ascribe them to NPDs. In the reality, grandiosity and omnipotence is just as much part of BPD as it is of NPD. They just expereince it through different lenses.

In his clinical reports Modell highlights how borderline individuals use inanimate objects to relate to in their adult lives, in place of human relationships. Even more striking is their use of other people as if they were inanimate to serve a self-regulating, soothing function, to be used as the toddler uses a teddy bear, in primitive, demanding ways. It is as if their attachment experiences failed to permit the internalization of an emotion regulation strategy

OMNIPOTENCE AND DEVALUATION

also closely linked to splitting. shows defensive use of self and other images. may be a shift between “the need to establish a demanding, clinging relationship to an idealized ‘magic’ object at some times, and fantasies and behavior betraying a deep feeling of magical omnipotence of their own at other times.” both states represent their identification with an “all good” object, idealized and powerful, as a protection against bad “persecutory” objects. There is no “dependency” in the sense of love for the ideal object and concern for it. On a deeper level the idealized person is treated ruthlessly, possessively, as an extension of the patient himself.” even when apparent submission to an idealized external object, deep underlying omnipotent fantasies there. “The need to control the idealized objects, to use them in attempts to manipulate and exploit the environment and to ‘destroy potential enemies’ is linked with inordinate pride in the ‘possession’ of these perfect objects totally dedicated to the patient.” underneath, insecurity, self-criticism, and inferiority... .often there are grandiose and omnipotent trends as compensation. often an unconscious conviction that they are special, and to have privileges.  If object can’t provide more gratification or protection it is dropped and dismissed.

Both use people to fulfill their needs. Both discard people when the fantasy fails. Same level of emotional impairment and destruction.

[seeking balance]

Why is it that BPD's don't grow and change yet "regular" people learn and grow?

BPD is a very real, diagnoseable mental illness that effects impulse control and emotional regulation.  Thus, comparing them to "regular", well, is that honestly fair?

And why do I think my ex will be the exception and suddenly change?

Because you are in grief and bargaining is a very real phase of it.

2.5 months NC. Going a little crazy. Definitely fantasize about being with her more and more frequently. I really do want to unblock her.

Well, as a "regular" person - you can control your impulses, right? 

Change is very difficult for everyone involved - BPD or not.  Changing ourselves is the only thing we can control.

Peace,

SB

[Tausk]

Cared:  I'm not there in nirvana yet    Just in the process like we all are.  And yes there's a spectrum.  

But grandiose and discarded for a new toy sound more like NPD.  Which is infinitely worse, IMHO.  NPD are much more evil and destructive.



And they do not discard us like a child with a new toy.  They flee in terror like a belt-whipped three-year old girl would run from her drunken father who also spends much his time with his hands up her skirt.

Some like to cast off negative/malignant traits and ascribe them to NPDs. In the reality, grandiosity and omnipotence is just as much part of BPD as it is of NPD. They just expereince it through different lenses.

In his clinical reports Modell highlights how borderline individuals use inanimate objects to relate to in their adult lives, in place of human relationships. Even more striking is their use of other people as if they were inanimate to serve a self-regulating, soothing function, to be used as the toddler uses a teddy bear, in primitive, demanding ways. It is as if their attachment experiences failed to permit the internalization of an emotion regulation strategy

OMNIPOTENCE AND DEVALUATION

also closely linked to splitting. shows defensive use of self and other images. may be a shift between “the need to establish a demanding, clinging relationship to an idealized ‘magic’ object at some times, and fantasies and behavior betraying a deep feeling of magical omnipotence of their own at other times.” both states represent their identification with an “all good” object, idealized and powerful, as a protection against bad “persecutory” objects. There is no “dependency” in the sense of love for the ideal object and concern for it. On a deeper level the idealized person is treated ruthlessly, possessively, as an extension of the patient himself.” even when apparent submission to an idealized external object, deep underlying omnipotent fantasies there. “The need to control the idealized objects, to use them in attempts to manipulate and exploit the environment and to ‘destroy potential enemies’ is linked with inordinate pride in the ‘possession’ of these perfect objects totally dedicated to the patient.” underneath, insecurity, self-criticism, and inferiority... .often there are grandiose and omnipotent trends as compensation. often an unconscious conviction that they are special, and to have privileges.  If object can’t provide more gratification or protection it is dropped and dismissed.

Both use people to fulfill their needs. Both discard people when the fantasy fails. Same level of emotional impairment and destruction.

Hmm.  Thank you.  Ok.  I was discarded. 

[Caredverymuch]

Cared:  I'm not there in nirvana yet    Just in the process like we all are.  And yes there's a spectrum.  

But grandiose and discarded for a new toy sound more like NPD.  Which is infinitely worse, IMHO.  NPD are much more evil and destructive.



And they do not discard us like a child with a new toy.  They flee in terror like a belt-whipped three-year old girl would run from her drunken father who also spends much his time with his hands up her skirt.

Some like to cast off negative/malignant traits and ascribe them to NPDs. In the reality, grandiosity and omnipotence is just as much part of BPD as it is of NPD. They just expereince it through different lenses.

In his clinical reports Modell highlights how borderline individuals use inanimate objects to relate to in their adult lives, in place of human relationships. Even more striking is their use of other people as if they were inanimate to serve a self-regulating, soothing function, to be used as the toddler uses a teddy bear, in primitive, demanding ways. It is as if their attachment experiences failed to permit the internalization of an emotion regulation strategy

OMNIPOTENCE AND DEVALUATION

also closely linked to splitting. shows defensive use of self and other images. may be a shift between “the need to establish a demanding, clinging relationship to an idealized ‘magic’ object at some times, and fantasies and behavior betraying a deep feeling of magical omnipotence of their own at other times.” both states represent their identification with an “all good” object, idealized and powerful, as a protection against bad “persecutory” objects. There is no “dependency” in the sense of love for the ideal object and concern for it. On a deeper level the idealized person is treated ruthlessly, possessively, as an extension of the patient himself.” even when apparent submission to an idealized external object, deep underlying omnipotent fantasies there. “The need to control the idealized objects, to use them in attempts to manipulate and exploit the environment and to ‘destroy potential enemies’ is linked with inordinate pride in the ‘possession’ of these perfect objects totally dedicated to the patient.” underneath, insecurity, self-criticism, and inferiority... .often there are grandiose and omnipotent trends as compensation. often an unconscious conviction that they are special, and to have privileges.  If object can’t provide more gratification or protection it is dropped and dismissed.

Both use people to fulfill their needs. Both discard people when the fantasy fails. Same level of emotional impairment and destruction.

Thank you Boris. I believe this was my experience.

[Tausk]

Boris:  Can you provide the reference cites.  I'd like to read them a bit.

[Aussie JJ]

I asked the same thing... .

Here it is.  Very interesting stuff, thanks Boris. 

www.books.google.com.au/books?id=_q-OAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&ots=x5tPqBzi-6&focus=viewport&dq=modell+1963+transitional+object&output=html_text

[BorisAcusio]

I asked the same thing... .

Here it is.  Very interesting stuff, thanks Boris.  

www.books.google.com.au/books?id=_q-OAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&ots=x5tPqBzi-6&focus=viewport&dq=modell+1963+transitional+object&output=html_text

I sent the other link in private for both of you.

Narcissism is really just the other side of the same coin as there are more similarities than differences. What Tausk may refer to is the "malignant narcissist" which is an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, aggression, and sadism, while at the low end of the spectrum, you have the misantropic/altruistic one.

[zenwexler]

I really do think the hardest part about going NC is that I don't get the constant feedback of her craziness. I still play this stupid fantasy in my head that she comes back. She has a bf but still holds onto me. Blocking her was the hardest thing I've ever done and I think about unblocking her everyday.

[Caredverymuch]

I really do think the hardest part about going NC is that I don't get the constant feedback of her craziness. I still play this stupid fantasy in my head that she comes back. She has a bf but still holds onto me. Blocking her was the hardest thing I've ever done and I think about unblocking her everyday.

I agree.  One of the hardest realizations is that they do not think like we do. I struggle with this as well. The missing of a person while realizing the very person I miss has erased me.   

[Infared]

I really do think the hardest part about going NC is that I don't get the constant feedback of her craziness. I still play this stupid fantasy in my head that she comes back. She has a bf but still holds onto me. Blocking her was the hardest thing I've ever done and I think about unblocking her everyday.

I agree.  One of the hardest realizations is that they do not think like we do. I struggle with this as well. The missing of a person while realizing the very person I miss has erased me.   

yes... .and the person that we miss/missed doesn't exist... .it was all smoke and mirrors because they (and we?) were not healthy!

[BorisAcusio]

I asked the same thing... .

Here it is.  Very interesting stuff, thanks Boris. 

www.books.google.com.au/books?id=_q-OAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&ots=x5tPqBzi-6&focus=viewport&dq=modell+1963+transitional+object&output=html_text

I've just finished reading it, thanks.

Another one based on clinical examples:

Omnipotence, helplessness, and control with the borderline patient.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6846667

[zenwexler]

Ahhh the whole thought that she is smoke and mirrors is wild. Like I know deep down its true becUse I experienced it first hand but it's very hard to accept none the less. And the thought of her being more real mature and open with her new bf makes me want to burn the world to the ground. She's young. So I assume with age and experience she'll learn and grow. But I but I guess not with BPD

[Mutt]

So I assume with age and experience she'll learn and grow.

I thought the same thing. Maybe she'll grow up a little when we get married. Followed by, maybe she will grow up when she turns 30. I didn't realize at the time - it's emotional arrested development.

[antjs]

Cared:  I'm not there in nirvana yet    Just in the process like we all are.  And yes there's a spectrum.  

But grandiose and discarded for a new toy sound more like NPD.  Which is infinitely worse, IMHO.  NPD are much more evil and destructive.



And they do not discard us like a child with a new toy.  They flee in terror like a belt-whipped three-year old girl would run from her drunken father who also spends much his time with his hands up her skirt.

Some like to cast off negative/malignant traits and ascribe them to NPDs. In the reality, grandiosity and omnipotence is just as much part of BPD as it is of NPD. They just expereince it through different lenses.

In his clinical reports Modell highlights how borderline individuals use inanimate objects to relate to in their adult lives, in place of human relationships. Even more striking is their use of other people as if they were inanimate to serve a self-regulating, soothing function, to be used as the toddler uses a teddy bear, in primitive, demanding ways. It is as if their attachment experiences failed to permit the internalization of an emotion regulation strategy

OMNIPOTENCE AND DEVALUATION

also closely linked to splitting. shows defensive use of self and other images. may be a shift between “the need to establish a demanding, clinging relationship to an idealized ‘magic’ object at some times, and fantasies and behavior betraying a deep feeling of magical omnipotence of their own at other times.” both states represent their identification with an “all good” object, idealized and powerful, as a protection against bad “persecutory” objects. There is no “dependency” in the sense of love for the ideal object and concern for it. On a deeper level the idealized person is treated ruthlessly, possessively, as an extension of the patient himself.” even when apparent submission to an idealized external object, deep underlying omnipotent fantasies there. “The need to control the idealized objects, to use them in attempts to manipulate and exploit the environment and to ‘destroy potential enemies’ is linked with inordinate pride in the ‘possession’ of these perfect objects totally dedicated to the patient.” underneath, insecurity, self-criticism, and inferiority... .often there are grandiose and omnipotent trends as compensation. often an unconscious conviction that they are special, and to have privileges.  If object can’t provide more gratification or protection it is dropped and dismissed.

Both use people to fulfill their needs. Both discard people when the fantasy fails. Same level of emotional impairment and destruction.

much here in this quote is opposite to what 2010 always say, that they are submissive and they feel like they do attach to an object not the other way around like the narcissists. it seems that this quote is from a book written by a psychiatrist which gives it more validity. but that is puzzling me. how can they be submissive yet omnipotent ? fear of engulfment make them flee or they discard people as an emotional pillow ? idealization is felt as "love" for them at that moment or in sociopathic way they are getting the bait ready for control ? do they devalue and discard or do they scapegoat as we are percepted as persecutors and we will engulf them and that they are going to lose themselves and their "identity" to us ?  with this quote the line between npd and BPD is getting thinner.

[BorisAcusio]

Cared:  I'm not there in nirvana yet    Just in the process like we all are.  And yes there's a spectrum.  

But grandiose and discarded for a new toy sound more like NPD.  Which is infinitely worse, IMHO.  NPD are much more evil and destructive.



And they do not discard us like a child with a new toy.  They flee in terror like a belt-whipped three-year old girl would run from her drunken father who also spends much his time with his hands up her skirt.

Some like to cast off negative/malignant traits and ascribe them to NPDs. In the reality, grandiosity and omnipotence is just as much part of BPD as it is of NPD. They just expereince it through different lenses.

In his clinical reports Modell highlights how borderline individuals use inanimate objects to relate to in their adult lives, in place of human relationships. Even more striking is their use of other people as if they were inanimate to serve a self-regulating, soothing function, to be used as the toddler uses a teddy bear, in primitive, demanding ways. It is as if their attachment experiences failed to permit the internalization of an emotion regulation strategy

OMNIPOTENCE AND DEVALUATION

also closely linked to splitting. shows defensive use of self and other images. may be a shift between “the need to establish a demanding, clinging relationship to an idealized ‘magic’ object at some times, and fantasies and behavior betraying a deep feeling of magical omnipotence of their own at other times.” both states represent their identification with an “all good” object, idealized and powerful, as a protection against bad “persecutory” objects. There is no “dependency” in the sense of love for the ideal object and concern for it. On a deeper level the idealized person is treated ruthlessly, possessively, as an extension of the patient himself.” even when apparent submission to an idealized external object, deep underlying omnipotent fantasies there. “The need to control the idealized objects, to use them in attempts to manipulate and exploit the environment and to ‘destroy potential enemies’ is linked with inordinate pride in the ‘possession’ of these perfect objects totally dedicated to the patient.” underneath, insecurity, self-criticism, and inferiority... .often there are grandiose and omnipotent trends as compensation. often an unconscious conviction that they are special, and to have privileges.  If object can’t provide more gratification or protection it is dropped and dismissed.

Both use people to fulfill their needs. Both discard people when the fantasy fails. Same level of emotional impairment and destruction.

with this quote the line between npd and BPD is getting thinner.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder was officialy slated for deletion from the new version of DSM as major part of the personality pathology could be attributed to other PDs. The DSM critera is derived from the early and limited clinical experience of 60s emphasizing on the grandiose/malignant dimensions of the NPD which proved to be extremly rare by recent studies. While the covert/vulnerable subtype is:

Miller and colleagues (2010) suggested that the nomological networks of vulnerable narcissism and borderline PD are so highly overlapping that one could question whether they represent distinct constructs. It is noteworthy that the narcissism factors were equally strongly related to DSM-IV NPD.

[Blimblam]

Aj they are nuts.  Remember?   They change schemas or

Masks or whatever you want to call it in often more than once while you make a 2 sentence statement. The submissive and omnipotence goes hand in hand with push pull actions. And depending on if they want to devalue you at that moment or they are warming up to you will determine if they are trying to hurt you or win you over. Yet it gets even more confusing than that because it becomes layered and try dot even know what they want.   It is a bunch of nonsense.

[thereishope]

Why is it that BPD's don't grow and change yet "regular" people learn and grow? And why do I think my ex will be the exception and suddenly change?

2.5 months NC. Going a little crazy. Definitely fantasize about being with her more and more frequently. I really do want to unblock her.

Zen, Im sorry for your internal pain in missing your ex. This is not easy work nor for the light hearted.  We are with you on this.

Why dont they change? Well, have you thought about a reason that they should?

When your emotional intelligence is that of a three year old, the resultant behaviors are satisfactory to that three year old.

Sometimes I think having BPD isn't that bad after all.  What would it feel like to remain in a fantasy state of mind whereby you acquire r/s partner (toy) after r/s partner (toy) whom you require heaps of love and attention-that is joyfully given in spades.  But when that three year tires of that  toy, it is put up on a shelf, forgotten about, and thru tantrums and lashing outs and immature actions of "needing" more, is rewarded with a shiny brand new toy. 

Play with the new toy, break it just like you did the old one in the same exact way, so better put that up on the shelf and take the one you broke a few months ago down off the shelf to play with for a few days. 

Tire of the fact that the toy is broken and would take a bit of effort to fix, so discard that one too.  All the while gaining tons of new friends who think you are a wonderful little child for being so attentive and well behaved and look at that toy box!

Uh oh, the grown ups in your life are starting to require you take accountability for all these broken toys and the tantrums and the acts of selfish behavior... .So, better do something about this... .maybe, threaten to maybe end your life.

Whats there to change for? The toy box and the playground are chuck full of new toys and the helpers always help me to feel safe.

Do you really think their lives are easy.  Would you exchange worlds with your ex for a heartbeat?

The essence of their existence is the living terrors of the nightmare existence of a perpetually traumatized three year old.  A pwBPD lives in constant terror at a level that if you and I experienced it, we would probably go mad in a instant.

They have limited capacity to deal with a world where they know they are different, and they know that are limited, but they don't really know why or how they are limited.  They only have the emotional tools of a fcked up three year old trying to find adult love.  But they can't. They don't know the difference between want and need.  They don't know how to love. 

So all they can do is survive.

And they do not discard us like a child with a new toy.  They flee in terror like a belt-whipped three-year old girl would run from her drunken father who also spends much his time with his hands up her skirt. 

The discarded toy analogy is more appropriate for pwNPD, but that is not this Board. 

This is the essence of a pwBPD is poor sense-of-self, combined with constant shame and terror, with no capacity to address the issues.   There is nothing to envy.

About half of pwBPD will attempt to commit suicide.    Many end up as homeless, or in mental institutions, or jail.  A significant percentage of the street walking prostitutes of both sexes are pwBPD.   Just look into the eyes of some homeless men or women on the streets, and I'll bet my retirement that you'll find your ex in there.

And what does a pwBPD have to look forward to in the long run?  What?  Inevitably, they eventually will collapse into themselves into abject hatred and shame.  Lonely cat ladies or mean old men without any friends or connection.  Only hatred and anger remain.  Even if they find a partner who can't leave, the only part of the connection that survives is hatred and contempt.  Name a single pwBPD who has reached old age and you've said, wow that person has a great life and attitude. 

Understanding the Disorder is one of my cornerstones to depersonalizing the interaction and the damage from the Disorder.

Tausk, let me be very clear. there is nothing to envy. i do not envy bppd, or any disordered groupings of people inherently lacking empathy, including pNPD. which i believe in my experience held a very clear and very obvious overlapping.

and i most certainly, like the majority here, am becoming a de facto walking talking quasi student of a disorder that i never wanted to be a scholar of. look around the subject topics on this board alone. i believe that we all see an incredibly devoted group of people left reeling from a r/s they entered by heart. doing hard work to understand a disorder that we do not have.

i surely am using tools, therapy, meditations, mindfulness,  exercise, EMDR, trigger avoidance, prayer, support groups, empathy, education, forgiveness, and intellect to gain understand of the destruction i was delivered and left with as a reward for being genuinely and fully caring of a disordered other. for my core issues as well.

do I wish I were my ex? yes, on somedays i do. for i am doing heart wrenching debilitating work and i am doing it alone. while he is doing none and continuing to hurt innocent others. including me.

there are days i wish i could dissociate to that degree. and i do feel like a toy. and, he does have a new toy. and he does get away with much. for you see tausk, not every pBPD is alike as we well know but the pBPD that i interacted with is nowhere near the cat lady or street man. he is grandiose. i feel like the street person as the entire goodness of my being has been drained by this interaction. i have fallen down 53 times and gotten up 54, and i am still here. by the grace of god.  reconstructing, while continually using my new found education to depersonalize actions delivered in hurtful and great ways.

if i had a dollar for every minute i spent in understanding with full compassion and great empathy combined with hard and true initiative to support this person, to love this person. and get this person help, i would donate the millions i earned to this site. to more research. to those cat ladies and those street homeless.

but, i am working on getting up 54+1 while doing damage control of a lot.

do i empathize and do i wish to fully detach with full depersonalizing of the interaction and the damage from the disorder? every waking moment of the day.

I admire you are there. sincerely. wholly. wait for me there. please.

Cared, you put words to my situation perfectly!  I'm so sorry you've gone through it, but I understand... .  I wish I had a teleporter that I could simply step in and be done with this situation for good... .I wish for it daily... .But here I am, dealing, coping, trying to have that final piece of bad behavior that will make me value myself enough to say, "what the?"... .Yet here I am.  But don't really wanna be. 

Anyways... .You have a talent with writing.  You should write a book.

[Infared]

Ahhh the whole thought that she is smoke and mirrors is wild. Like I know deep down its true becUse I experienced it first hand but it's very hard to accept none the less. And the thought of her being more real mature and open with her new bf makes me want to burn the world to the ground. She's young. So I assume with age and experience she'll learn and grow. But I but I guess not with BPD

Zen... .I think that this is the bane of "our" existence... .the "belief" of what you say here.  Our belief kills us... . They fooled us... .they are EXPERTS at fooling us with the mirroring (I know that they are also very sick... .but that does not change our perception of who they "showed" us that they were).  Who could not fall deeply in love with that fake person.  Think of the desperation they must have to be that person soo well to hook us... .but in the end... .we HAVE to disspell our illusion... . It is soo f'ing hard to do that. ... .The person that we loved and now crave WAS NOT A REAL PERSON. It was a desperate, sick person making a trap for us.  It is so hard for me to digest that ... .but if I do not it is where ALL of my pain comes from. Every bit of it. Reality bites it sometimes.

[Caredverymuch]

Ahhh the whole thought that she is smoke and mirrors is wild. Like I know deep down its true becUse I experienced it first hand but it's very hard to accept none the less. And the thought of her being more real mature and open with her new bf makes me want to burn the world to the ground. She's young. So I assume with age and experience she'll learn and grow. But I but I guess not with BPD

Zen... .I think that this is the bane of "our" existence... .the "belief" of what you say here.  Our belief kills us... . They fooled us... .they are EXPERTS at fooling us with the mirroring (I know that they are also very sick... .but that does not change our perception of who they "showed" us that they were).  Who could not fall deeply in love with that fake person.  Think of the desperation they must have to be that person soo well to hook us... .but in the end... .we HAVE to disspell our illusion... . It is soo f'ing hard to do that. ... .The person that we loved and now crave WAS NOT A REAL PERSON. It was a desperate, sick person making a trap for us.  It is so hard for me to digest that ... .but if I do not it is where ALL of my pain comes from. Every bit of it. Reality bites it sometimes.

Quite true! All if this. Thank you Infared!