Wife Wants Divorce With No Attorneys

[hurthusband]

Besides the fact this shatters my world...

I am not sure this is a good idea.  I mean on other hand the debt she has wracked up past 2 years is enormous and I am 83% of the income earner with all the debt in my name so in a way that is attaractive since.

I am not sure what to do here.

I know at this point I feel like somebody who has been lying on the ground and kicked by a gang of superpowered villians for about 10 years.  At this point, I do not have the power nor strength to fight anything.  I just want the kicking to stop. I mean the actual physical abuse has stopped, but the mental abuse is much worse

[Moselle]

Besides the fact this shatters my world...

I am not sure this is a good idea.  I mean on other hand the debt she has wracked up past 2 years is enormous and I am 83% of the income earner with all the debt in my name so in a way that is attaractive since.

I am not sure what to do here.

I know at this point I feel like somebody who has been lying on the ground and kicked by a gang of superpowered villians for about 10 years.  At this point, I do not have the power nor strength to fight anything.  I just want the kicking to stop. I mean the actual physical abuse has stopped, but the mental abuse is much worse

Sorry to hear this. It must be so demoralising and depressing to face this! My wife has threatened divorce 18 times in 6 months, including saying about 6 times that she has filed, expect a visit from the sherriff, but she never filed. It was all hot air/abuse/punishment.

However it was so demoralising and destructive. I remember feeling exactly like you describe. The temptation is just to give up and let the process unfold, but perhaps you can summon just a little bit of energy. The times will change and you will one day feel excited to be alive again. If you can hold onto that thought. There will be joy for you again. If you can't fight for you, let a lawyer do it. Get one. The best divorce lawyer you can find and just ask for advice. It doesn't mean you have to use one, but it is assertive. I did, and she was well versed in the games of BPD spouses too. It gave me all the information needed to feel like I was able to fight this, or at least she was, if I couldn't.

Abusive spouses are masters of isolation. Do you have family/friends/ therapist who can allow you space to be you?

Strength to you hurthusband.

[hurthusband]

yea this is what I was thinking.  Man... what a mess.  The damage is so inflicted by her... I am just confused and given up

[enlighten me]

Hi Hurthusband

Im sorry that it has come to this for you.

One thing that I wish I had done was file for divorce and take control of the process. As it was when my ex wife dumped me I told her I wanted a divorce. She successfully recycled me and then dumped me again and filed for divorce. This left her calling all the shots and running up massive bills with my attorney as she kept on moving the goal posts.

If you are certain it is over then you need to control the divorce. For your sake and your childrens.

The more drawn out the process means more chance of your children being exposed to hostility.

By not seeking legal council you may leave yourself open to more trouble in the future. An attorney will be able to make it water tight so that you don't end up back in court in years to come.

She may not have any money for an attorney at this time but who knows who she may meet and she may decide that's she's in a position to revisit the divorce either to get more money out of you or just to punish you.

[hurthusband]

Hi Hurthusband

Im sorry that it has come to this for you.

One thing that I wish I had done was file for divorce and take control of the process. As it was when my ex wife dumped me I told her I wanted a divorce. She successfully recycled me and then dumped me again and filed for divorce. This left her calling all the shots and running up massive bills with my attorney as she kept on moving the goal posts.

If you are certain it is over then you need to control the divorce. For your sake and your childrens.

The more drawn out the process means more chance of your children being exposed to hostility.

By not seeking legal council you may leave yourself open to more trouble in the future. An attorney will be able to make it water tight so that you don't end up back in court in years to come.

She may not have any money for an attorney at this time but who knows who she may meet and she may decide that's she's in a position to revisit the divorce either to get more money out of you or just to punish you.

in a way if she left me it would mean i wouldnt have to worry about her.  i know she would be somewhat taken care of

[Bellerphon]

I was in a seven year relationship, we were married had two children. I tried to get out three times.

My ex during the relationship physically assaulted me six times (went to Jail once), left our three year old outside at night in 40 degree weather while I was at the grocery store, was addicted to prescription drugs ( failed rehab attempt) , and cheated on me a few times when she was traveling when she was employed. It was a hot mess.

I had the same attorney for 5 years in a row. Trust me you need an attorney and you will need to record and journal everything. When the BPD turns on you and begins to obsess on you... .the protection with keep you from going insane. What saved me $$$ and the kids was documentation, good discovery motions and sound court room representation. I have gone through: protective orders, two assault trials, a contested divorce trial and now pending the final hearing for custody ( the kids are placed with me). I don't regret having an attorney one bit.

B

[Dutched]

Been there and gone through it. 

At this point, you won’t believe me! You are lucky(!), yes very lucky that you know about BPD as I did during the last years of the r/s. 

When/if (and I sincerely hope that you can manage to continue the r/s if you want) she wants to divorce, have your own lawyer(!), never without it, nor get a mediator to “pre settle” (if that is possible in your country)

Before you jump to the legal board, with ton’s of info, keep her behaviour in mind.

All just in case my friend:

= You know her,  feelings = facts   so use it to your advantage

= Do not listen to the words, judge upon her action only!

(she needs you during the procedure... .for her advantage only... .)    

= A BPD will try to act behind your back, prepare and stay prepared.

= Most likely she will act as the victim, trying to use that to her advantage.

= She will try to hurt you on your most sensitive spots (family,belongings, etc)

= Prepare finances, passwords, keep hold on your papers (house, insurances, etc).

As said, when/if you (both of you) want to continue the r/s take over the lead, set strict boundaries for your finances, otherwise you will be ruined financially.

I never gave her control of our money, although we had a mutual account.

Very early in the r/s I told her, based on her spending, that I didn’t accept it, so I managed finances.

I budgeted/controlled it and she never, never dared to exceed budget, unless we agreed.

ExHFPBDw ended in a blink of an eye 30+ yrs. with the words:

“I can’t stand this anymore, I will temporarely leave for my rest (!) and the kids go with me!”).

Translated she meant a divorce.

It’s a hard place to be, sleepless nights, a rollercoaster of emotions contradicting the rational mind.

To be very direct to you but from a good and very sincere hart:

Kick yourself and get up! Protect yourself (emotionally / financially) for your (and kids?)wellbeing/future

[Boss302]

Besides the fact this shatters my world...

I am not sure this is a good idea.  I mean on other hand the debt she has wracked up past 2 years is enormous and I am 83% of the income earner with all the debt in my name so in a way that is attaractive since.

I am not sure what to do here.

I know at this point I feel like somebody who has been lying on the ground and kicked by a gang of superpowered villians for about 10 years.  At this point, I do not have the power nor strength to fight anything.  I just want the kicking to stop. I mean the actual physical abuse has stopped, but the mental abuse is much worse

There is no debate here. Protect yourself. GET THE ATTORNEY. And make sure that attorney is painfully aware of what you're dealing with.

The only reason I didn't use one to finish up my divorce was that I ran out of money.

And make sure all communications are on email. Document, document, document. Hang in there.

[hurthusband]

Yea... she has broke me financially.  The renovations she started has the house in a place that it cannot be even shown to be sold... the cars and the house are all in my name.  House before we married.  Credit cards and finances all in my name, but used by her to rack up the debt.

So basically, when we met she had no job and no income.  She went to college and got a degree and got a job which is below her but a start at $10 an hour.

I on other hand had a degree/job/no debt.  I started a business and got up to 6 figures, but if relationship ends at this point I will have $40k in credit card debt, a house in disrepair, a busted up truck that I use and her late model Lexus in my name to pay for.  I have little clothing or items at all, and I will lose the kids I have grown close to because they are not biologically mine, but where 3 and 1 when I met her.

I feel sick

[Heartandsole]

Hang in there Hurthusband.  She may be doing you a big favor here.  Do you realistically see getting your financial house in order and having a mutually nurturing relationship? 

I say this to you because we are in the same boat.  10 year marriage, I am the breadwinner, she has been ill and underemployed (we have no kids though).  Cars house, cc, all in my name.  She has no ability to function in a budget (has outlawed the use of spreadsheets in financial discussion) 

Anyway, I know you are are hurting and just wanted to give you some support.  I am getting ready to talk to my atty about filing this week and it breaks my heart.  She is playing the victim role and has the papers filled out and signed but won't serve me so that I can be the bad guy.  She keeps egging me on to "hurry up and file" at the same time. 

Oh yeah, she wants a new car after I've just put $1500 into the one that is paid off in the last two weeks... .

I wanted to try and do a no atty route to save money... .I've been convinced otherwise so I echo advice above to deploy the lawyer.  See if you can find a female that knows about BPD,  that would be my suggestion but I'm not far ahead of you.

[ForeverDad]

You do need an experienced problem-solving attorney because you don't know what she will do.  Think false allegations.  (The legal people passively call them 'unsubstantiated' allegations.  They shy away from calling a lie for what it really is.)  I was a religious volunteer when I met my now ex-spouse, she joined me in it for 8 years.  You would think she would never make false allegations based on our joint history of religious activities, right?  Wrong, she made some of the worst child abuse allegations imaginable.  By then of course I had already had to step down as elder.  The legal consequences could have been dire.  I could literally have been wearing an orange jumpsuit for a decade or more.  Fortunately the professionals weren't easily fooled, but they had to investigate each allegation just in case.  Most were made (1) just before a big hearing or (2) just after she had made a big mistake and felt she had to make me look worse than her.  Even after she had made numerous failed allegations they still looked at each allegation as though it were the first.  Only when her credibility was weakened in court did she make fewer allegations, but it took me over 4 years to get to that point.

If you are not the parent or adoptive parent of the children then you would need a lawyer to advise you on your parental rights, if you have any.  Yes, you've raised them but if you didn't adopt them then it is possible she will control access to them unless she agrees to it or a court decides to grant you access.

A lawyer can tell you what applies in your state but likely any agreement would have to be filed and approved or ordered by the court.  Be aware that a private agreement to allow you to continue parenting or one not filed with the court may not be enforceable.

She may use access to the children as hostage negotiations to get more $$$ from you or force you to take on more debt.  That could be an endless drain, always threatening to block access whenever she wants more money.  You'll need firm boundaries to protect yourself and not invite/enable more and more demands.

For example, you may not have to continue paying for her car loan if the car is that much better than yours.  The court could agree it should be sold and she be forced to get a less expensive vehicle.  (Beware of her agreeing or ordered to take over payments.  Lenders are not forced to accept court orders, their relationship was with you, they may still demand payment from you if she fails to pay.)  That's why I suggest selling the car may be the safer long term option for you, it ends your loan obligation.

If she has a degree but is choosing not to use it to the full, then that's her choice, court won't force her to find a better job.  BUT the court could 'impute' and use her potential income when it comes to calculating what support is ordered for her during/after the divorce.  Oh, did we warn you that if she starts out with a favorable temporary order then she will be doubly certain to delay the final decree as long as she can?  People with BPD may be messed up but they're not dumb, most know the value of money in their hot little hands and try to prolong the gravy train as long as possible.

As for the credit cards, if you are the account holder and she is the cardholder, then you control the accounts.  You can cancel her cards and she wouldn't be able to spend willy nilly as before, she would have to come to you to get money.  But then expect the mother of all Extinction Bursts - rants, rages and perhaps even allegations trying to intimidate you into undoing your fixes.

[livednlearned]

Usually, "no attorney" means gives me everything I want. You absolutely cannot do that. If "no attorney" means you draft a proposal and she signs, then you're one lucky guy. More likely, she will ask for all the assets and want you to take all the debt.

It might be worth seeing what she will ask for, in which case, just let it play out to see what she thinks is "fair." Then make a decision about what you think is best, to protect you. A lot of people here try to be reasonable and fair, and even then, that's not enough. I gave my ex the house and wish I hadn't been so dumb. I could've used the equity to help me pay for the legal bills it cost just to get him to refinance. Three trips to court to give him the house. I still don't understand.

Have you talked to an attorney? It's a good idea to consult with a bunch if you can -- maybe 3 or 4. Don't tell her otherwise you'll pay for it. Talking to them doesn't mean you have to retain them, it's just for information gathering. Depending on where you live, it can run $50 for 30 minutes and up. But it's worth it. Just to strategically to get a sense of how things will end up playing out. She may try to claim child support and alimony. In my state, if you're married less than 10 years, alimony pretty much doesn't happen. If you're married 10 years, then alimony is roughly half the years you were married.

You also need to know whether she can even try to get the house, or half your retirement. I read somewhere that it's a good idea to stop paying maximum into retirement (if you're lucky enough to even be doing that) because it's usually split right down the middle. Set aside the $ you would put into retirement for your legal fund.

Usually, the debt is split according to income. In high-conflict divorces, BPD sufferers tend to drive up court costs just by obstructing and delaying things. Everything you experienced during the marriage, you will experience during the divorce. Agreeing to things, then denying that ever happened. Blaming you for everything, meanwhile doing the very thing you're accused of doing. Fabricating things that never happened, never mind that there is no proof, if not contrary proof. The problem during divorce is that the court gets involved, and all that conflict gets jacked up in pretty miserable ways.

It's also a good idea to read Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy. Unless you've already been though a high-conflict divorce before, you probably aren't all that familiar with the legal system. It's this weird combination of cut and dry, plus incredibly fuzzy. So it helps to read how BPD mixes with a pretty opaque system.

Also very important: usually once divorce gets brought up, things get worse. Including false allegations like FD mentioned. Wishing it would get better, and hoping for it all to go away is magical thinking. Once you've been split black, it's kinda a one-way street and you need to be careful. People on these boards have been through unbelievable horrors because they didn't think things could get any worse... .

Talk to some lawyers and find out how things work in your state. At the very least, gather as much information as you can. And start doing things to protect yourself, like getting rid of credit cards, or setting up a private savings account.

Keep in mind, too, that she can up and leave at any moment, and clean out the joint checking and savings account, if you have one.

[Moselle]

Usually, "no attorney" means gives me everything I want. You absolutely cannot do that. If "no attorney" means you draft a proposal and she signs, then you're one lucky guy. More likely, she will ask for all the assets and want you to take all the debt.

It might be worth seeing what she will ask for, in which case, just let it play out to see what she thinks is "fair." Then make a decision about what you think is best, to protect you. A lot of people here try to be reasonable and fair, and even then, that's not enough. I gave my ex the house and wish I hadn't been so dumb. I could've used the equity to help me pay for the legal bills it cost just to get him to refinance. Three trips to court to give him the house. I still don't understand.

Have you talked to an attorney? It's a good idea to consult with a bunch if you can -- maybe 3 or 4. Don't tell her otherwise you'll pay for it. Talking to them doesn't mean you have to retain them, it's just for information gathering. Depending on where you live, it can run $50 for 30 minutes and up. But it's worth it. Just to strategically to get a sense of how things will end up playing out. She may try to claim child support and alimony. In my state, if you're married less than 10 years, alimony pretty much doesn't happen. If you're married 10 years, then alimony is roughly half the years you were married.

You also need to know whether she can even try to get the house, or half your retirement. I read somewhere that it's a good idea to stop paying maximum into retirement (if you're lucky enough to even be doing that) because it's usually split right down the middle. Set aside the $ you would put into retirement for your legal fund.

Usually, the debt is split according to income. In high-conflict divorces, BPD sufferers tend to drive up court costs just by obstructing and delaying things. Everything you experienced during the marriage, you will experience during the divorce. Agreeing to things, then denying that ever happened. Blaming you for everything, meanwhile doing the very thing you're accused of doing. Fabricating things that never happened, never mind that there is no proof, if not contrary proof. The problem during divorce is that the court gets involved, and all that conflict gets jacked up in pretty miserable ways.

It's also a good idea to read Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy. Unless you've already been though a high-conflict divorce before, you probably aren't all that familiar with the legal system. It's this weird combination of cut and dry, plus incredibly fuzzy. So it helps to read how BPD mixes with a pretty opaque system.

Also very important: usually once divorce gets brought up, things get worse. Including false allegations like FD mentioned. Wishing it would get better, and hoping for it all to go away is magical thinking. Once you've been split black, it's kinda a one-way street and you need to be careful. People on these boards have been through unbelievable horrors because they didn't think things could get any worse... .

Talk to some lawyers and find out how things work in your state. At the very least, gather as much information as you can. And start doing things to protect yourself, like getting rid of credit cards, or setting up a private savings account.

Keep in mind, too, that she can up and leave at any moment, and clean out the joint checking and savings account, if you have one.

I'd like to echo this. I had the sexual abuse claims and child abuse claims against my children too. It is the nature of this stuff that it's believed when a woman says it. It's just how society operates. So be prepared for anything.

I took all the precautions and set up my life ready for a divorce, and one of the best options financially is to set up a trust with a sister, brother or friend as the sole trustee, and your lawyer as the independent trustee. Put everything in there including cash, and do not make yourself a beneficiary of the trust. That can happen after the divorce. In this way, the court cannot touch anything in the trust, there is no connection to you. But you control it through your sister/brother or friend.

Fortunately, my wife told me two nights ago that she admits being daignosed BP/NP, is in serious therapy and has reverted to Dr Jeckyll. When Mr Hyde comes back I know I am covered legally. I am of course also documenting all the things she is admitting to. Mental illness is serious business. Assertiveness is the only appropriate response.

All the best with this. Strength to you!

[enlighten me]

A word of warning when it comes to documenting their mental health. My ex wife told me she was diagnosed with Bi-polar and ME. She played on this for years and even had prescription anti depressants.

I used these facts to try to prevent her from moving away with our children as there would not have been the support network available that she had at the time. When I got her medical records thee was no mention of any of it. She had made it all up and got the antidepressant off of a friend.

Only build a case with what you have evidence of. I was lucky. Her behaviour obviously rang alarm bells with the judge so it didn't make it look as if I was throwing mud. Others may not be so lucky.

[hurthusband]

A word of warning when it comes to documenting their mental health. My ex wife told me she was diagnosed with Bi-polar and ME. She played on this for years and even had prescription anti depressants.

I used these facts to try to prevent her from moving away with our children as there would not have been the support network available that she had at the time. When I got her medical records thee was no mention of any of it. She had made it all up and got the antidepressant off of a friend.

Only build a case with what you have evidence of. I was lucky. Her behaviour obviously rang alarm bells with the judge so it didn't make it look as if I was throwing mud. Others may not be so lucky.

O i know she is BPD, because I have been asked to come to some of her sessions with psychologist who has said in front of me she is BPD and she is abusive.

I found the comment earlier from Heartandsole funny  btw.  He said his wife wanted a new car after he just paid $1500.  My wife sort of did the same thing.  I owed $2k to pay off our CRV.  Wife was already hounding me for a new one.  Then a wreck happened late one night and totalled it.  Suddenly it late model luxury or you will suffer.  Lol... yup I seen that one.  Audo payment basically doubled, insurance doubled, and then the DWI just happened too!

Yea the thing is about no attorney, I do not have much to lose.

Right now due to me not setting boundaries, I own nothing I want outside of my work computer.  I have tons of debt that I will not be able to load off as its in my name.  The house?  Its a disaster.  I suppose I would want it just cause I hate to move, but it makes sense for her to have it with the kids anyways.  Got the house during the financial bust so 2 teens and 1 adult need really 3 bedroom and the mortgage and property taxes still make it cheaper than a 2 bedroom apartment in town. 

As for the kids, I cannot get them anyways.  They are from different fathers.  I have no real right to them.  They love their mother and would not want to be seperated from her anyways. 

So what can i really lose?  Not an alimony state so I do not have to give her anything there.  I mean i would be entitled to compensation for her physical abuse but it was never reported to cops so no record there.  I would pay child support to get visitation though, but no lawyer can help me there.  It is entirely in her court

Kids really make things the hardest. 

[Moselle]

So what can i really lose? 

Hurt, my guess is that she has seen a lawyer, and has a good idea of what she can take from you even if it's your self-respect. Also, you don't know what you have to lose until you lose it - don't let her surprise you

[catnap]

The house is yours so keep it.  I can almost guarantee if it is signed over to her, she will not pay the mortgage or the taxes and lose it anyway.  If you divorce providing shelter for her is not your problem. She survived before you and she will survive after you.  You will not have the outlay of her medical costs.  It is sad about the children but you do not have any legal recourse.

In reading your past posts, you are paying close to 30k on her medical expenses.  That money can be used to pay off debt and slowly repair the house. 

The disordered person has an uncanny ability to survive.  You want to do what is legally fair, but any thing you do to be nice will not be reciprocated. 

[ForeverDad]

So what can i really lose?

Hurt, my guess is that she has seen a lawyer, and has a good idea of what she can take from you even if it's your self-respect. Also, you don't know what you have to lose until you lose it - don't let her surprise you!

O i know she is BPD, because I have been asked to come to some of her sessions with psychologist who has said in front of me she is BPD and she is abusive.

Courts generally don't care about a diagnosis such as BPD, well, not unless there's a murder.   Courts pay less attention to labels and more attention to behaviors.  And much of the adult behaviors are ignored, focus is more on the parenting behaviors.  Since they're not your children, not much you can do about that.

I owed $2k to pay off our CRV.  Wife was already hounding me for a new one.  Then a wreck happened late one night and totalled it.  Suddenly it late model luxury or you will suffer.  Lol... yup I seen that one.  Auto payment basically doubled, insurance doubled, and then the DWI just happened too!

The fact that she has a DUI may give you REAL LEVERAGE to reason with the court that you can't let her leave the marriage with a luxury vehicle that is in your name and has your loan on it.  The fact that she drives it does NOT make it hers... .well, not unless you appease again.  Better that it HAS to be sold to pay the loan off.  It's in your name, you can sell it and buy a less expensive model.  (But once the divorce is filed you may be prevented from selling major assets during the divorce process unless the court gives its approval.)

Frankly, you need some boundaries now, a backbone.  But be aware that when you set limits and boundaries she will try to overwhelm you with pleas, guilting, obligations, promises, demands, ultimatums and even threats.  So do have 'self-protection' in place before she gets her hackles up and teeth bared.

The house?  It's a disaster.  I suppose I would want it just cause I hate to move, but it makes sense for her to have it with the kids anyways.  Got the house during the financial bust so 2 teens and 1 adult need really 3 bedroom and the mortgage and property taxes still make it cheaper than a 2 bedroom apartment in town.

Frankly, you are currently your own worst enemy... .far too passively acquiescing.  That is precisely why you need an attorney, you need someone level-headed to protect you and your future.  If she got the house she would destroy the house even more, you know that!  Or fail to pay the mortgage, taxes or insurance and have it foreclosed on.  Or sell it for some quick cash without a shred of remorse.

Yes, right now you just want to walk away, gifting her everything but the debts.  Years from now, while you're still paying off the immense financial consequences, maybe even wanting to start a relationship with a wonderful woman and start a family, you will regret not doing more to protect yourself now.  Count on it.  She squandered your finances?  Then she ought to experience the consequences too, please don't reward her.

The house is yours so keep it.  I can almost guarantee if it is signed over to her, she will not pay the mortgage or the taxes and lose it anyway.  If you divorce providing shelter for her is not your problem. She survived before you and she will survive after you.  You will not have the outlay of her medical costs.  It is sad about the children but you do not have any legal recourse.

In reading your past posts, you are paying close to 30k on her medical expenses.  That money can be used to pay off debt and slowly repair the house.

The disordered person has an uncanny ability to survive.  You want to do what is legally fair, but any thing you do to be nice will not be reciprocated.

Catnap's comments are not predictions, they are future history, it's that sure to happen.

What we are writing is not mean or unfair.  It is just basic self-protection.  The lawyers will state what the standard outcomes are.  Court deals with this all the time.  They can keep it businesslike, so you should too.  A good lawyer can guide you through the process.  Or at least a consulted lawyer can warn you of the pitfalls of doing everything she will demand.

Some experienced ones here have learned the wisdom to shift the blame of saying No onto the lawyer.  "I'm sorry, but my lawyer said I can't do that."  If you are the one who has to say No, then you are likely to give in and "get taken to the cleaners", cleaned out of all assets and left with only debts.

[hurthusband]

Yea... I do not worry about her surviving.  She can. I worry about the kids though. I mean I worry about her and still care, but I am scared of the mess that will happen without me there with kids and what damage might be done in that time

Honestly, I am scared what she will do to me still even if I am not there.  There have been threats to ruin lives around me because she knows them and their secrets by being with me and using them to hurt them.  Sometimes it feels like the best thing is me dying so nobody around me gets hurt, there is life insurance to float wife and kids for a bit, and I do not have to suffer through this

[catnap]

Without speaking to an attorney, or several, you do not know what options you may have.  Is there a way to express concern (CPS report) for the children? What about the bio Dad of the oldest child? 

Just by speaking to attorneys you will have a much better idea how things work and it might mitigate some of the fear.

[hurthusband]

Without speaking to an attorney, or several, you do not know what options you may have.  Is there a way to express concern (CPS report) for the children? What about the bio Dad of the oldest child? 

Just by speaking to attorneys you will have a much better idea how things work and it might mitigate some of the fear.

ugh the dad for the oldest kid is less mature than his 14 year old.  34 and still living in band tshirts at the same job he has had since he was 18... no promotion... no nothing...   although has the newest video games at all times

[ForeverDad]

Yea... I do not worry about her surviving.  She can. I worry about the kids though. I mean I worry about her and still care, but I am scared of the mess that will happen without me there with kids and what damage might be done in that time

Honestly, I am scared what she will do to me still even if I am not there.  There have been threats to ruin lives around me because she knows them and their secrets by being with me and using them to hurt them.

You can only do just so much, the rest is not in your power.  There's a phrase I've seen here, "Let Go and Let God."  That is, take care of yourself and leave your worries and the rest in God's capable hands.

Sometimes it feels like the best thing is me dying so nobody around me gets hurt, there is life insurance to float wife and kids for a bit, and I do not have to suffer through this.

We've all faced disquieting thoughts when we were at our lows.  This tells me that besides peer support and local trusted friends and family, you could use a counselor to assist you to handle and get past these feelings.  They're not "you", they're situational feelings because of your relationship and situation.  You can use some outside objective support to guide you and keep you from getting unbalanced and unrealistic.

[Boss302]

Yea... I do not worry about her surviving.  She can. I worry about the kids though. I mean I worry about her and still care, but I am scared of the mess that will happen without me there with kids and what damage might be done in that time

Honestly, I am scared what she will do to me still even if I am not there.  There have been threats to ruin lives around me because she knows them and their secrets by being with me and using them to hurt them.  Sometimes it feels like the best thing is me dying so nobody around me gets hurt, there is life insurance to float wife and kids for a bit, and I do not have to suffer through this

It sounds like you could definitely use someonel to help you through these awful feelings. Do you have a therapist? I didn't have one during my (gawdawful) divorce, and I wish I had. I probably suffered through a lot of fears and other things needlessly.

Stay strong... .and take care of yourself. Let us know how you're doing, OK?

[livednlearned]

Yea... I do not worry about her surviving.  She can. I worry about the kids though. I mean I worry about her and still care, but I am scared of the mess that will happen without me there with kids and what damage might be done in that time

Honestly, I am scared what she will do to me still even if I am not there.  There have been threats to ruin lives around me because she knows them and their secrets by being with me and using them to hurt them.  Sometimes it feels like the best thing is me dying so nobody around me gets hurt, there is life insurance to float wife and kids for a bit, and I do not have to suffer through this

hurthusband, we're here for you and understand. These relationships when they break down can feel excruciating. Like nothing could possibly hurt like this. We worry about our loved ones and it can be all-consuming, like the cloud will never lift and we'll never return to an emotionally stable place. Are you talking to a counselor? I can hear in your post that your grief runs deep.

Even low-conflict divorces can be devastating. Add to that years of BPD struggles, and not surprisingly, many of us are at our lowest when we arrive here. It's hard to see how it could ever be ok again.

It sounds like you love the kids very much, and you want what is best for them. Insurance money can't heal the hurt a child feels when someone close to them takes their life. It tells them that this is how an adult solves problems, at a time when they are so vulnerable themselves and need hope.

Despair is part of the grieving process. It's something to work through, not give into. There are people a phone call away who understand.

People here understand too, and care about you.

[Moselle]

Hurt,

Sorry to see this is so devastating for you.

Stay Strong.

I also offer my support during the next phase of your challenge. Keep posting

[Heartandsole]

Sometimes it feels like the best thing is me dying so nobody around me gets hurt, there is life insurance to float wife and kids for a bit, and I do not have to suffer through this

Hey man, I don't know you, but I know some of your pain and despair.  I want to suggest to you that EVERYONE around you gets hurt when you die.  If you are having really dark thoughts and/or actually think that is the way to fix this, I encourage you to go get in front of someone via telephone or a counselor a Therapist, pastor etc.  Like today!

You have a light inside of you and it's smoldering, but it is there.  You have special talents that you either already know of or you have not yet uncovered.  There is a lot of happiness in the world, some of it belongs to you.  Take care of yourself.  You have value to people in your life that may not be obvious to  you.  This process, however painful is here to teach you some kind of lesson because and you are going to get it one way or the other.  It is imperative that you don't give up before it's your time to shine! 

Existing as a negative impact on the world is a distorted view of things, but it is understandable.  Lots of us here get so messed up and don't know which way is up or down, and everything seems harder than it ought to be.  You have lots of worth, maybe not enough self awareness to recognize the self-worth today, but you are important.  Believe that.  Believe that you will find understanding and support here.  This too shall pass.  Until then it will bee a pain in the @ss.

     

[enlighten me]

Hi Hurthusband

Things may seem bad now but trust me they do get better. You've a lot on your plate with your wifes behaviour, debt and the thought of not seeing the kids. A lot of the pressure you have is real and a lot is just perceived. I know it feels like a juggling act at the moment trying to balance everything and keep on top of it all but no matter how bad you think things are it does get better.

When my ex wife dumped me I had nothing. I had to live in a tent for a month as she had spent everything so I didn't even have enough for a deposit on a flat let alone the rent. I slowly but surely built myself back up. Found somewhere to live and furnished it. I still had the battle of the divorce and the fact the ex wife was moving 3 hours away with the kids to deal with but I slowly got my life back on track. I now have a house and get plenty of quality time with my children. If I can do it then so can you.

I realise the kids aren't yours but you have been a huge part of their life and they will appreciate that. They will no doubt still want contact with you and when theyre old enough will probably visit off of their own backs.

As others have said stay strong.

[hurthusband]

Thanks for support

I had a psychiatrist of some sort for about 30 years of my life.  latest one for past 12 years, but stopped going couple of months ago because just could not afford it anymore.  I mean i will still see him from time to time but not regularly like i was.  He and I have gone through all of this before, and I know what he will say.  Some reason I just have a hard time detaching what she feels from being the reality i believe...

[Heartandsole]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here: 

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you? 

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

[hurthusband]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here: 

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you? 

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

He would say that it is not my job to make her happy.  That I cannot make her happy and only she can.  He would say that I am doing everything possible, but I have to take some time for myself.  I have to think of myself.  I need to stop beating myself up.  He would say even if she thinks how I do things is wrong, it is ok how I do things if I believe in them.  Nobody is perfect, and what one person believes in right differently from another does not mean they both cannot be right or wrong.

[Boss302]

Thanks for support

I had a psychiatrist of some sort for about 30 years of my life.  latest one for past 12 years, but stopped going couple of months ago because just could not afford it anymore.  I mean i will still see him from time to time but not regularly like i was.  He and I have gone through all of this before, and I know what he will say.  Some reason I just have a hard time detaching what she feels from being the reality i believe...

Then I would definitely suggest a therapist or counselor that's tuned into your current situation, if the old one isn't affordable and doesn't meet your current needs. The one I saw cost about $50 per session, which wasn't easy to afford at the time of my divorce (which bled me dry financially), so I didn't do it, but I started seeing one regularly after the divorce, and it was well worth it. Often times, there are mental health agencies that take clients on a sliding-scale basis. I'd definitely suggest finding one - from what you've posted, I really think you need someone to talk to that can support you professionally through this.

I'd also suggest that seeing a therapist can be an effective tool in court if you're being hit with false accusations. At the time I was being dragged through court, I wasn't seeing anyone professionally, and I wish I had - the counselor I eventually went to could have interfaced with all the "experts" on my case and assured everyone that the "anger issues" I had at my BPDx weren't irrational or caused by mental issues on my part - they were being caused by her behavior, which was ATROCIOUS.

Do it even you have to cut something out. You're going to need all the help you can get if you want to emerge from this emotionally healthy and "present" for your kids.

[Boss302]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here: 

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you? 

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

And my question for you would be: what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy? I don't ask accusingly - I want you to think of what you've actually done to deserve these feelings.

[hurthusband]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here: 

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you? 

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

And my question for you would be: what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy? I don't ask accusingly - I want you to think of what you've actually done to deserve these feelings.

No I see what your saying... feeling those when I really shouldnt... says something

[momtara]

If you stay you may have far higher bills... .she might want you to buy her a new Lexis, you may need more therapy, doctor's bills... .

As for her kids - I've said this before... .all rules have exceptions.  If you contact enough family lawyers in your state, maybe you can find one who can make the case to the judge that you should have some custody of them.  You never know until you try.  You could post on avvo and see.  Don't automatically assume defeat!

[livednlearned]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here:  

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you?  

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

And my question for you would be: what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy? I don't ask accusingly - I want you to think of what you've actually done to deserve these feelings.

No I see what your saying... feeling those when I really shouldnt... says something

Guilt is a tool we use to keep ourselves feeling something familiar. It's a form of relief, even though it isn't pleasant. It's internalizing what others have said, and then wearing it like a cloak. It starts off their job to hold us down, and then we take over and help them with this work by using guilt.

Sometimes lifting the guilt is more frightening than getting rid of it.

[hurthusband]

It is great that you have invested so much into therapy in your past.  One thing that a good friend of mine told me that gave me a different perspective when I was in the throes of indecision about staying/leaving is that he asked me what I would advise HIM to do if he was in my shoes.  For some reason I was able to remove my own emotion and tap into more logic.  Just a thought for you and the rest of your support group here:  

Would you consider telling all of us a dialogue of what you think you would say to your T now, and what you know he/she would say back to you?  

Potentially it would be good for you to hear yourself say it, and it may help us know how to support you better as well.  You obviously have a crowd of people here that care about you!

I would talk about the emotional abuse and toll that my wife is taking on me.  Her rages, her mistakes, her demands.  The insults and blaming and questioning me as a good person and husband.  I would say I feel guilt and shame.  I feel I am inadequate.  I feel scared.  Very scared.

And my question for you would be: what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy? I don't ask accusingly - I want you to think of what you've actually done to deserve these feelings.

No I see what your saying... feeling those when I really shouldnt... says something

Guilt is a tool we use to keep ourselves feeling something familiar. It's a form of relief, even though it isn't pleasant. It's internalizing what others have said, and then wearing it like a cloak. It starts off their job to hold us down, and then we take over and help them with this work by using guilt.

Sometimes lifting the guilt is more frightening than getting rid of it.

could you expand on what you mean by that?

Sounds helpful

[livednlearned]

Often when we're young,  someone characterizes who we are for us, and we allow it. A parent, often. Maybe both parents. They may say we are bad, and over time, we figure they must know. Usually they are an adult, a grown up, someone we believe is trustworthy.

We take that script forward with us into adulthood. Then we meet someone who we believe is trustworthy. That person says we are bad, and we think, "Hey, this sounds familiar. It must be true because so-and-so said this to me too."

It becomes familiar to feel bad. Every time something bad happens, we think it confirms the truth, that we're bad. Every time someone accuses us or blames us, we agree. We start internalizing this stuff, and it shows up as guilt. We use guilt to make sure we don't deviate from the "truth" that we're bad. That's what our mom said, or our dad said, so it must be true. They knew us best, right?

I was thinking about this today with the judge in the news (in the US) who might be impeached for being physically abusive to his wife. He was beating her in hotel room and she called for help. The story is that she told her H that she knew about his affair. In response, he beat her. He may lose his job because the DV made headlines. I can just imagine how furious he is, blaming her for causing him to lose his job.

Did she cause him to lose his job, though? Is it her fault he had the affair? Did she deserve to be beaten?

If she is guilt-ridden, and believes she caused him to lose his job, it's because that feeling will feel familiar to her. "I caused him to lose his job by crying out for help." Even though from the outside looking in, the guy had an affair, then when confronted, he lashed out and beat his wife. He is culpable. Public opinion, which doesn't experience guilt, is thinking this guy is an abuser. There is no way to justify what he did. The judge, instead of thinking, "Wow, I'm out of control, having affairs and beating my wife. I guess I had this coming" he is probably thinking, "My wife ruined my career."

A lot of people who are DV survivors, or those who experience abuse -- both as kids and then as adults -- they sort of become co-conspirators by letting guilt shape their thoughts and actions.

Guilt feels very real, and very familiar, and it seems like it's the source of all true thoughts. It seems like it is a reflection of reality.

But it's often a tool (not a positive one) we use to internalize repeated, insistent, chronic negative messages about who we are. Often, that message is coming from someone who doesn't want us to notice that the person generating that message is behaving far, far worse than we are.

[momtara]

Hurt husband, I've followed your story for months and you have suffered a lot and done the best you can and worked near miracles to try to keep it all together.  Whatever happens, you really did your best.

[Moselle]

Guilt feels very real, and very familiar, and it seems like it's the source of all true thoughts. It seems like it is a reflection of reality.

But it's often a tool (not a positive one) we use to internalize repeated, insistent, chronic negative messages about who we are. Often, that message is coming from someone who doesn't want us to notice that the person generating that message is behaving far, far worse than we are.

This is profoundly eye opening to me. Thanks LivednLearned.

How can we rewrite the guilt script?

I guess awareness is the start, but I can imagine recognising when we're feeling guilty, and asking Boss302's question  "what have you DONE to deserve the guilt and shame, and feelings of inadequacy?"

[hurthusband]

I do not know why I have the guilt problem... Both my parents and family and friends and everyone has always told me I am the most kind, considerate person they know.  That I am rational and do what is right always regardless.  My wife is the first person who says otherwise.  I never considered myself the things she says I am until I was with her.  I have never been told those things until I was with her.  I do not know why I accept them as true.  

I suppose I worry I am a fraud that has everyone fooled.  I am selfish and the things she says.

Latest is last week she said she wanted to go the the State Fair in Oklahoma.  Its only a 3 hour drive so I said ok.  Next day I asked instead of the upcoming weekend if we can go the next becasue this past Monday was quarterly taxes and a big bill day. Plus I did not feel it was fair to only give a 4 day notice before taking off since somebody would have to cover for me. I had nowhere near the funds to cover it all and didnt want to charge more things up.  She was a little disappointed but said ok we can do it the next weekend (this weekend).  

I asked my job to let me off the next Saturday and they said yes.  LAter in the week my wife says she needs a new laptop for work.  She wants a Mac cause she is in graphic design now.  I do alot with computers (build them and manage for companies) and I mention that while traditionally Apple is favored by graphic designers in past, Windows computers are now just as good and sometimes better at a greatly decreased cost.  For instance the new Mac Pro 13" is $1350 while you can get an Asus for $1100 15" which has a better processor, graphics card, more storage (now it is a HDD vs an SSD but 128 gb vs 900 gb), more RAM.  Anyways, we let it rest until next week since we gotta get through taxes

This past monday evening (might have been tuesday evening) she says that her sister got her and the 2 kids tickets to her company outing at Six Flags.  I mention that I took off for us to spend togetehr which she forgot.  She said I can do whatever.  One of the kids says he doesnt want to go, and I say if you like I will go.  She says she isnt sure, but ok.  Then yesterday she says she needs Apple cause it doesnt get virus' (which isnt true) and that it has to be the 15" so its $2k.  In addition, its bull___ I am taking off when I know they are going to Six Flags and that I cannot go cause the ticket is for a child only.  I should have changed my day off.  Generally, nobody in management ever takes off the first or last saturday cause of the business we get flooded with.  She knows this.  Plus, it would not have been fair to then change plans at work 4 days before I am supposed to take off it seems.

She goes bezerk.  She says I am a horrible person.  She says she had a horrible day and I did nothing, I was late coming home from work.  Now I had planned on going to work early because I left early the day before cause she was going out with friends and somebody needed to be home with kids.  It was not that early but still did.  I was going to go in that morning to catch up.  One of our sons left the house and did not go to bus stop and I noticed.  I told her and instead of going to work early i searched neighborhood for him until I found him.  Result was I had to make up work, working later.  I did not get flowers because she says she hates when I get flowers the last time.  She says she hates flowers from grocery stores, and she hates places like pro flowers.  At same time she was complaining about spending $1200 on a computer but then raised it to $2k (mind you I do not have $2k to my name right now after taxes and I owe mortgage and bills come the first)... .how is she going to feel spending a minimum of $100 on a premium florist?  I then spend afternoon talking to lawyers about a malpractice suit against doctor that was with her and she states that it is really just not worth the money to represent the case which I understand.  She is upset about that too... She is upset cause she didnt get much sleep cause she was up late drinking til 2 am with friends...

All of this, she tells me we are over.  She then says I have to get her the $2k computer though.  I tell her she needs to accept responsiblity for some of this.  That some of her problems are self inflicted and some are not my fault at all.  I am not a super villian.  She then says she is going to kill herself and hangs up.  It hen have to call around to make sure she is ok.  

I do not know what to do... she says I have 1 hour tonight to get my stuff and move out.  I cannot get all I need to get out. Do I even move out?  :)o I get her the computer she says she needs to work?  Was I wrong about time off?

I am sure that many will say I need to just leave, and that might be so, but I want to know if I did anything wrong for my own sanity.  I can accept I make mistakes and apologize, but I feel I did not do anything wrong... .and that scares me if I did.  I need to know.  The thing that scares me is while I feel that I did nothing wrong, what if I am mentally ill?  What if I am incapable to judge things correctly?  Maybe I DO deserve the shame and guilt even though I do not feel I do because I am mentally ill too

[catnap]

You did nothing wrong.  She expects you to be off and available for her every whim.  She thinks you "owe" her things--WRONG! 

She uses kicking you out and divorce as threats to make you comply with her wishes.

   

I do not know why I have the guilt problem...

 

You have been conditioned by her to feel guilt. 

[livednlearned]

I do not know why I have the guilt problem... Both my parents and family and friends and everyone has always told me I am the most kind, considerate person they know.  That I am rational and do what is right always regardless.  My wife is the first person who says otherwise.  I never considered myself the things she says I am until I was with her.  I have never been told those things until I was with her.  I do not know why I accept them as true.  

I suppose I worry I am a fraud that has everyone fooled.  I am selfish and the things she says.

My experience with this -- and yours might be different -- is that there are layers to this. My family also says positive things about me. But with the help of a therapist, I can see now that actions when I was younger were very different. I was praised for being the good kid, the kind one, the gracious child, the patient, strong, stoic, never-complaining one. I did whatever I could to be all of this so that my parents praised me and accepted me. It made so I never pointed out what was going on in our family. I didn't ever listen to my own instincts, my own feelings, my own interests.

It could be that you were not overtly undermined as a kid, but maybe you were invalidated in an insidious way.

I don't know, just guessing. There is usually a connection between staying with someone abusive and how we were conditioned as kids. For me, it was doubly hard because my dad would say I was perfect, which I liked. Except perfect meant never crying or complaining about having the crap beaten out of me by an older brother, well into my 20s. I was praised for not rocking the boat. Showered with compliments for enduring everything that came my way. It took me a year in therapy to finally recognize the dynamic.

I do not know what to do... she says I have 1 hour tonight to get my stuff and move out.  I cannot get all I need to get out. Do I even move out?  :)o I get her the computer she says she needs to work?  Was I wrong about time off?

Your description of the computer and the day off is very logical. You are behaving in a logical way, and she is not. When she moves the goalposts, how do you feel?

I want to know if I did anything wrong for my own sanity.  I can accept I make mistakes and apologize, but I feel I did not do anything wrong... .and that scares me if I did.  I need to know.  The thing that scares me is while I feel that I did nothing wrong, what if I am mentally ill?  What if I am incapable to judge things correctly?  Maybe I DO deserve the shame and guilt even though I do not feel I do because I am mentally ill too

It's really common for people to question their own sanity in a blame-shifting relationship. When things become so chronically adversarial (ie. always a "winner" and a "loser", it feels like only one person can be right. If she needs to be right at all costs, when you point out that she might not be, she'll step up the blaming so you stop looking too closely at her behavior.

The only way I was able to work through this was by focusing on how I felt. It took me many years to even feel anger - I had pushed it so deep. I wasn't allowed to feel anger in my childhood. Even just a hint of it and I was swiftly put back in my place. Instead, I was rewarded for being "good." Is there anything similar for you in your past?

Once you can connect with your feelings, you can start using those feelings in tandem with how you think. They go to together. Thoughts and feelings. But you have to know how you feel first, and that can take some work if you are accustomed to letting someone else's feelings drive everything.

How do you feel when you think about putting yourself first? What feelings come up? Not thoughts, feelings.

[hurthusband]

You did nothing wrong.  She expects you to be off and available for her every whim.  She thinks you "owe" her things--WRONG! 

She uses kicking you out and divorce as threats to make you comply with her wishes.

   

I do not know why I have the guilt problem...

 

You have been conditioned by her to feel guilt. 

Now that makes sense.  I figured it was that, but never noticed it creeping up on me.  I am not sure if i should get computer now or not.  Short term it makes no sense because even with this job and the pay which is horrific, its not really doing her much good to spend that much.  I know she also wants a Mac even though I know for sure there are better cheaper alternatives.  At same time, when everyone at your job swears by them and its just the culture of your industry, I can understand that.  Art departments are weird... and I know the Mac will be able to be a good computer even if not as good and overpriced.  At least if I leave she can be set up with tools to attempt to support herself.

Maybe that is whole manipulation though.  It seems when i point out that she bears some responsiblity such as the DWI being her fault and not mine, is when I am labeled as saying the most evil things.

I do not know why I cannot just seperate myself from this.  I feel more and more that I am, but the toll on me is quite heavy. 

[hurthusband]

I do not know why I have the guilt problem... Both my parents and family and friends and everyone has always told me I am the most kind, considerate person they know.  That I am rational and do what is right always regardless.  My wife is the first person who says otherwise.  I never considered myself the things she says I am until I was with her.  I have never been told those things until I was with her.  I do not know why I accept them as true.  

I suppose I worry I am a fraud that has everyone fooled.  I am selfish and the things she says.

My experience with this -- and yours might be different -- is that there are layers to this. My family also says positive things about me. But with the help of a therapist, I can see now that actions when I was younger were very different. I was praised for being the good kid, the kind one, the gracious child, the patient, strong, stoic, never-complaining one. I did whatever I could to be all of this so that my parents praised me and accepted me. It made so I never pointed out what was going on in our family. I didn't ever listen to my own instincts, my own feelings, my own interests.

It could be that you were not overtly undermined as a kid, but maybe you were invalidated in an insidious way.

I don't know, just guessing. There is usually a connection between staying with someone abusive and how we were conditioned as kids. For me, it was doubly hard because my dad would say I was perfect, which I liked. Except perfect meant never crying or complaining about having the crap beaten out of me by an older brother, well into my 20s. I was praised for not rocking the boat. Showered with compliments for enduring everything that came my way. It took me a year in therapy to finally recognize the dynamic.

I never had much asked of me.  It makes sense though there must have been something.  My parents have always viewed me as being a better human than them.  I was encouraged to have and feel emotions.  I honestly loved my childhood.  Maybe a little sheltered, but I loved it.

I can think of somethings though that certainly could play a role in me.   My parents divorced when I was 4.  My OCD manifested at that point and I was put in therapy quite fast for it so I always had help with it.  I did miss my father alot, but at same time, I never wanted my parents to get back together because I loved my step father who my mother started seeing when I was near 6.  My mother did work alot and was young so I did spend a good amount of time with my grandparents who were great people too. 

That being said, from an early age I always recognized flaws in those around me.  I demanded myself to be perfect.  I dreamed about being perfect.  I knew it was impossible, but I wanted to be thought of as the best possible as a person.  I was a sickly kid too... so i suppose I spent more time not around people and wanting to be more ideal.  I did not want to drink, curse, or do anything my friends would do as I got older.  I finally relented and I do curse on occasion.  I still feel a need to impress people with who I am as a person.  I do not associate with many people though.  Only really my wife at this time.  She is the one person though who always feels I am inadequate and I keep trying to change her mind... I think that is a problem and why I am manipulated is she knows I need that.

It is possible my parents fed into that when I was a kid, but unintentionally.  I do work with my mother in company business now days as well as run my own business.  My family never cared if I did this or if I did something else there was never any pressure.  I do feel pressure on myself though to prove to people below me that I work as hard as they do and I hate that I have had to cut corners and not work as hard as them cause my wife stuff disrupts my business...

In some ways, I feel I lived in an imaginary world as a kid and set forth goals to life not based on what was told or expected, but what I imagined... I still daydream

I want to know if I did anything wrong for my own sanity.  I can accept I make mistakes and apologize, but I feel I did not do anything wrong... .and that scares me if I did.  I need to know.  The thing that scares me is while I feel that I did nothing wrong, what if I am mentally ill?  What if I am incapable to judge things correctly?  Maybe I DO deserve the shame and guilt even though I do not feel I do because I am mentally ill too

It's really common for people to question their own sanity in a blame-shifting relationship. When things become so chronically adversarial (ie. always a "winner" and a "loser", it feels like only one person can be right. If she needs to be right at all costs, when you point out that she might not be, she'll step up the blaming so you stop looking too closely at her behavior.

The only way I was able to work through this was by focusing on how I felt. It took me many years to even feel anger - I had pushed it so deep. I wasn't allowed to feel anger in my childhood. Even just a hint of it and I was swiftly put back in my place. Instead, I was rewarded for being "good." Is there anything similar for you in your past?

Once you can connect with your feelings, you can start using those feelings in tandem with how you think. They go to together. Thoughts and feelings. But you have to know how you feel first, and that can take some work if you are accustomed to letting someone else's feelings drive everything.

How do you feel when you think about putting yourself first? What feelings come up? Not thoughts, feelings.

Putting myself first... feeling is shame.  I *know* it is okay to put myself first sometimes, but I feel like a I might be being selfish and unreasonable.  Guilt pops up.

I feel I possibly cared as much as I profess, I would put others before myself.  So I do that.  Sometimes, I find people who take advantage of that, but I usually disassociate from them.  I suppose I rely on them to tell me if I am being selfish by how much they take.

Sacrifice... sacrificing my happiness for the happiness of more people seems better for the world.  I do not necessarily like it though.  I suppose there i some of "what would Jesus, the Buddha, or Ghandi do?" that goes on in alot of decisions I make.  The problem is that my wife questions EVERYTHING bout me.  From a rational standpoint... one of us maybe crazy, but which?

I feel that there is no right nor wrong.  There are just a multitude of options.  Each with its own benefit and consequence.  "many ways to skin a cat".  its okay to be wrong.  I feel no hostility towards people making mistakes.  I do feel hostile towards myself making mistakes even though I do not feel that way towards others. 

Maybe I am narcissistic... expecting myself to be better than others since I expect more of myself than I would of others? Maybe it is just my OCD and obsessive thinking over things.  I feel I have a higher tolerance for emotional/mental suffering than others so I deal with it.

I feel a gambit of emotions constantly.  In particulary, I feed off what others feel.  Pain... if I see somebody in pain... it consumes me too.  For instance, if I see my wife in pain... I feel guilty if I am happy over something in my own life.  I feel pain seeing a bug even suffer.  I do not view anything I feel as bad... I always tell my kids and wife it is okay to feel any emotion at any time.  It is what you do in those states that might be right or wrong.  Even then though, while not correct they are not bad.  I mean if somebody hears their wife cheated on them and they punch a wall.  They are right to be angry, it is wrong they punched the wall, but its reasonable to understand why.  They are human.

The most frustrating thing for me is trying to get my wife to understand I feel things and why I do.  In her mind, it is not okay for me to be angry.  She is angry, and she is the focal...

I seem a bit reluctant to say my parents were bad parents or that they caused this in me.  I suppose they could be called absent at times... I felt like in a way... they were young and I grew up with them as they grew up.  I suppose religion certainly played a role on me as a kid.  Not because either parent was super religious.  I mean my dad was Jewish and mother was Christian.  Certainly not ultra followerers of religion but I went to a religious private school.  No real discipline there like you think at a Catholic school, but certainly it permeated everything.  Perhaps all of that with Jesus sacrificing and so forth played a role in what I felt I wanted to be.  I say want, because I do not believe perfection is needed. 

I know one thing that is really messing with me is i never had a girlfriend even before my wife.  A steady girlfriend.  I mean I dated, but by 24, I had never had a real girlfriend.  The result being I guess I was learning about relationship for first time with her which is a BPD spouse.  Result being I had no basis to compare and contrast what is normal based on previous relationships

[ForeverDad]

The most frustrating thing for me is trying to get my wife to understand I feel things and why I do.

And you will keep getting frustrated because she's not listening or reciprocating and likely won't ever listen or reciprocate unless she makes significant progress in long term therapy.  If she refuses to do meaningful long term therapy then you must accept she won't improve very much if at all.  Accept "What Is", not "What You Want".

Are you yet at the point that you can Accept she won't change?  Once you can do that, then it will be easier for you to see your path forward.  Until then you'll still be tempted to walk in circles frustrated as ever or even take some backward steps.

[momtara]

HurtHusband,

First, do not buy the laptop.  It might satisfy her temporarily, if at all.  You know it doesn't last, and in the end, that's less money you have for the next thing.  How long will this unselfish act really help you?  You keep thinking you'll do one more thing, but there's always another thing you have to do to keep the peace, and some of these are expensive, and can't be remotely twisted to be things that are necessities.  You know when you buy her things and give in, it doesn't last forever - and you're in more debt and can't take care of any of you.  You spent $2,000 to save her from a sucky trip with her family and she was grateful for a few weeks, and you felt good, but eventually you were back to being insulted again, called selfish, etc.  You keep buying things.  Set a boundary.   Yes, she will react badly at first, but in the long run she will not keep demanding impossible things.  And if she says she's leaving because you didn't buy her that thing, then it only shows that the next time, she would have left, or the time after that. 

I feel like you do - I am selfish.  I knew my exH was sick and I still had kids with him.  I could have left.  Every single one of us could beat ourselves up.  But you know what?  NONE of us had an idea that our exes were so sick that they were out of touch with reality.  You are not selfish.  You are in love with a sick person.  This person is sometimes wonderful and sometimes awful.  You don't deserve the awful side.  You are so close to the situation and so attached to her that you can't set all the boundaries you should, and that's understandable.

But I know at least spending more money is the wrong thing to do.  Suppose you buy her the laptop and then one of the kids gets into an accident and you need that money, or she makes a false claim about you and you need bail, or something else.  Eff the computer.  She doesn't need it.

[livednlearned]

My parents divorced when I was 4.  My OCD manifested at that point and I was put in therapy quite fast for it so I always had help with it.  I did miss my father alot, but at same time, I never wanted my parents to get back together because I loved my step father who my mother started seeing when I was near 6.  My mother did work alot and was young so I did spend a good amount of time with my grandparents who were great people too.

There is probably a lot going on here, hurthusband. My son (13) has OCD too. One specialist described it as a genetic predisposition to dealing with uncertainty in ritualized ways. I like that definition -- because we all struggle with uncertainty. We don't all respond with ritualized behavior. From what I've learned, OCD is a specific way to manage the anxiety (compulsions or obsessions manifested in rituals) that happens when someone feels uncertain.

Do you think it's a coincidence that you developed OCD at the same time your dad left the family?

I do not associate with many people though.  Only really my wife at this time.  She is the one person though who always feels I am inadequate and I keep trying to change her mind... I think that is a problem and why I am manipulated is she knows I need that.

That makes sense. A lot of us end up isolated for one reason or other. I also look back and realize that I preferred feeling  "stronger than" or better than my partner(s). It made me feel wanted and worthy. Even though I didn't like what my ex was doing, I liked the part where I could feel better than him.   It sounds similar to what you wrote about wanting to feel perfect. It's a fragile way to feel worthy, though, because it's contingent on what someone else says and does. Real self worth isn't like that.

I feel that there is no right nor wrong.  There are just a multitude of options.  Each with its own benefit and consequence.  "many ways to skin a cat".  its okay to be wrong.  I feel no hostility towards people making mistakes.  I do feel hostile towards myself making mistakes even though I do not feel that way towards others. 

Can you see how your wife's hostility toward your mistakes fits into the script you have for yourself too? If you have internalized a type of self-loathing, then it makes it much easier for someone else to turn the dial up -- we become complicit in the dynamic. On the outside, you feel "better than" but inside, and in a very fragile way, you are susceptible to feeling "bad."

Maybe I am narcissistic... expecting myself to be better than others since I expect more of myself than I would of others? Maybe it is just my OCD and obsessive thinking over things.  I feel I have a higher tolerance for emotional/mental suffering than others so I deal with it.

I don't think wanting to be "perfect" is the same as being narcissistic. Perfection is more about wanting things to be certain. What happens when you don't feel certain about something? What if you aren't certain about yourself?

I feel a gambit of emotions constantly.  In particulary, I feed off what others feel.  Pain... if I see somebody in pain... it consumes me too.  For instance, if I see my wife in pain... I feel guilty if I am happy over something in my own life.  I feel pain seeing a bug even suffer.  I do not view anything I feel as bad... I always tell my kids and wife it is okay to feel any emotion at any time.  It is what you do in those states that might be right or wrong.  Even then though, while not correct they are not bad.  I mean if somebody hears their wife cheated on them and they punch a wall.  They are right to be angry, it is wrong they punched the wall, but its reasonable to understand why.  They are human.

But if feelings are not bad, then why try to fix them? Meaning, if your ex is mad or sad or upset or whatever that you won't do x,y,z, or you didn't do it perfectly, then why not let her experience those bad feelings? It sounds like you may struggle with boundaries here.

The most frustrating thing for me is trying to get my wife to understand I feel things and why I do.  In her mind, it is not okay for me to be angry.  She is angry, and she is the focal...

She doesn't have the same goal as you do. Maybe it's: She wants to be right. You want to be perfect.

[hurthusband]

My parents divorced when I was 4.  My OCD manifested at that point and I was put in therapy quite fast for it so I always had help with it.  I did miss my father alot, but at same time, I never wanted my parents to get back together because I loved my step father who my mother started seeing when I was near 6.  My mother did work alot and was young so I did spend a good amount of time with my grandparents who were great people too.

There is probably a lot going on here, hurthusband. My son (13) has OCD too. One specialist described it as a genetic predisposition to dealing with uncertainty in ritualized ways. I like that definition -- because we all struggle with uncertainty. We don't all respond with ritualized behavior. From what I've learned, OCD is a specific way to manage the anxiety (compulsions or obsessions manifested in rituals) that happens when someone feels uncertain.

Do you think it's a coincidence that you developed OCD at the same time your dad left the family?

I think it certainly started to manifest itself as a result of the divorce.  I mean it is genetic and inherited.  It is a chemical imbalance more like bipolar than an obsessive compulsive personality.  The rituals are definitely a means of control, but there is a sort of real psychotic component to it in which you feel there is something out there that will happen if you do not do certain things.  You know its not real, but you still feel it and its a very strong feeling.  You can do things to desensitize it. 

I do not associate with many people though.  Only really my wife at this time.  She is the one person though who always feels I am inadequate and I keep trying to change her mind... I think that is a problem and why I am manipulated is she knows I need that.

That makes sense. A lot of us end up isolated for one reason or other. I also look back and realize that I preferred feeling  "stronger than" or better than my partner(s). It made me feel wanted and worthy. Even though I didn't like what my ex was doing, I liked the part where I could feel better than him.   It sounds similar to what you wrote about wanting to feel perfect. It's a fragile way to feel worthy, though, because it's contingent on what someone else says and does. Real self worth isn't like that.

yes... its codependency

But if feelings are not bad, then why try to fix them? Meaning, if your ex is mad or sad or upset or whatever that you won't do x,y,z, or you didn't do it perfectly, then why not let her experience those bad feelings? It sounds like you may struggle with boundaries here.

i dont want her to hurt, but there is also an element of fear.  she just told me that we are getting a divorce and if i ever want to see children again i will give her the house to start with.  She also said once i find a place to live for myself i can get my things but only with her persmission.  she then started saying horrible things.  i have never heard anyone say the things she was saying to me.  i hung up.  she said if i ever hang up on her again she will destroy the remaining items i have... clothing, work gear, etc. 

the reason i fear her upset is because what she will do.  If she is upset on a trip to Europe at parents and wants a ticket back right then... if i do not get it. she WILL disappear.  She will literally go off someplace and disappear.  She will do something more severe.  She also WILL find a way to punish anyone who crosses her.  Her professor crossed her in college... she made such a stink he lost his shot at tenure.  The abortion doctor probably deserved it, but after we took his license to practice medicine, she wanted him sued and that is partly why she mad at me because no lawyer will take the case.  She will do anything to crush somebody.  Physical abuse has stopped, but it is much better than what i have seen her capable of and what she has done to me.  Since she turned from grief to rage as her main emotion... I do not fear death in and of itself.  I fear hell.  Not sure i would go there for suicide.  I fear hurting those around me.  I do not fear somebody walking in and blowing me away at my job though.  She has already threatened not to hurt me if i do not go along with what she wants, but hurt those i care about. 

The most frustrating thing for me is trying to get my wife to understand I feel things and why I do.  In her mind, it is not okay for me to be angry.  She is angry, and she is the focal...

She doesn't have the same goal as you do. Maybe it's: She wants to be right. You want to be perfect.

she wants to be right.  she doesnt believe i care or love her.  she keeps saying i do not. she keeps saying i feel things i do not.  I try so many ways to explain i love her and i want her happy, but she doesnt believe it

It is literally her saying im doing exactly what she is doing to me but swapping roles.  It is psychotic behavior.  I know thats borderline, but its more time in psychotic than sane now. 

I know I need to get a lawyer, and i need to cut her loose.  I need to be firm and ruthless to save myself.  I do not know why i am hesitant to do it.  Its gotta be more than love because this is not a loving situation

[momtara]

Tape her.  Always.

I made a lot of mistakes because I kept trusting my exH when he got sweet again.  And that's natural.  But always be taping.  You don't want to feel so bad you shoot yourself in the foot and can't take care of yourself.  You can't afford to lose your job.  And you'd like to see the kids sometimes.  She will have to still be in your life in some way.

Those 'you'll never see the kids' threats make people look really bad in family court.  Of course, they are not biologically your kids so it's not the same thing, but I still think you should fight for some visitation with them, esp the one you have helped raise since he was 1.  I don't care about the precedent - time to make a new one.  That's fathering all his life.

[momtara]

"she doesnt believe i care or love her."

She knows.  You have saved her so many times.  Deep inside they know the truth.  She has an illness and it comes out as her pushing you away.   Try not to take it all so literally, hard as it is.  I"m sure after you protect yourself and set reasonable boundaries and start the process, in time, she will have to understand. 

[catnap]

 

I know I need to get a lawyer, and i need to cut her loose.  I need to be firm and ruthless to save myself. 

Yes, as hard as it may seem, you do need to get a lawyer.  You gave several examples on how she has crushed people in the past, so it is imperative that you set the wheels in motion to protect yourself. 

[ForeverDad]

Can you re-read this thread?  There are many here who have been burned and managed to survive.  We've been there, done that.  Read what you've written and our concerned replies.  It's natural to feel your case can't be as bad as what some of us have experienced.  Maybe it won't be as bad as we fear.  Or maybe it will.  But no one, not even you, can promise it won't get worse, much worse.  Learn from our experiences, try to avoid as much of our sufferings as possible.

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, this is sounding really tough for you. I wish you strength, and hope you take the good (and hard-nosed) advice you've got here already.

She also WILL find a way to punish anyone who crosses her.

When I read things like this... .I see getting divorced without a lawyer working out like this:

1. She makes unreasonable demands for everything.

2. You agree to those unreasonable demands.

3. She is unhappy/dysregulates despite getting all you could give her.

4. She decides to destroy you as punishment anyway, after already getting everything in the divorce.

I'd recommend you follow the stories of "high conflict divorces" here, to see what you are getting yourself in for, and what you can do about it.

Hang in there--you do have people here who care and will support you. Here for sure, and probably some at home will surprise you as well.

[momtara]

[4. She decides to destroy you as punishment anyway, after already getting everything in the divorce.[/quote]
Exactly.  Giving up everything will make it worse in the long run.  Lawyers are expensive, agreed.  You can get some free consultations and see if you can do it inexpensively.

[livednlearned]

My ex is a former trial attorney. He threatened many things during our marriage -- no judge would ever award me custody, N/BPDx would see to it, he knows how the system really works, etc. He would prevent me from getting my degree by telling my department what I was really like. He would make sure I lived in section 8 housing, he would destroy my reputation, ruin my career, have Homeland Security investigate the legitimacy of my citizenship. 

I look back now and it's hard to imagine I ever believed a word that came out of his mouth.

He did try to get custody, and the opposite happened. I have full custody.

He did try to ruin my reputation at work. My boss reported his emails to campus police and legal counsel.

He did try to ruin my reputation at school (he has colleagues there) but I have seen no ill effects. If anything, my advisor, the dean, and the associate dean have become even more supportive of me.

I did lose the relationship I had with my adult step son, which is acutely painful. I hope one day to have a relationship again with him.

I'm not living in section 8 housing.

N/BPDx has become a thorn in my side with court stuff, but he's an attorney and turns out to be very dedicated to keeping me engaged in court. He doesn't win, just wants to be negatively engaged. But that is as much a function of him being an attorney than anything else, I think.

Are these divorces bad? Yes. They're high-conflict and stressful and expensive.

But with very careful planning and a good attorney, you can stay several steps ahead of your wife.

Plan well, pull yourself together, let people help and support you, and start the healing.

There is a lot you can learn and do before leaving the relationship that will help protect you.

Every day I walk into my home I feel gratitude for all this peace and calm in my life. I can't believe I lived with so much dread and fear, so much self-loathing and anxiety and stress, never knowing who my ex was going to be on any given day, any given hour, one minute to the next.

It's not easy to get here, but it's worth it. 

[ugghh]

Hurt,

My marriage of 26 years ended with the divorce settlement this summer.   My ex uBPDw operated in a similar fashion.  I was always the one who was the primary earner, responsible with finances, etc.  My pay covered 95% of the family's expenses while she spent only 10% of her pay on the family and rest on herself.   I have been fortunate to continue to advance in my career despite the sabotaging actions she constantly subjected me to at work.

In the last 5 years before the divorce I made more money than I ever thought I would in my life - guess how much is left?  Yep, not only is nothing left, she managed to wrack up $20,000 in credit card debt unbeknownst to me in addition to the $15,000 i put on credit cards as I tried to struggle to keep up with her reckless spending.  Every time I objected or tried to curtail her spending somehow I was an ogre or being selfish to ask her to live within our means.  When I look back it literally makes me sick to think about how much was wasted.

Today?  Well today I live in a house that was half the size of my old one.  But all three of my late teen/young adult kids elected to come live with me.  I don't worry about having to put gas for my car on a credit card because she spent $200 at the pet store.  I don't have a $1,000 worth of Tupperware in my cabinet I have one small nesting set from Walmart that was about 10 bucks.  Works just as well for my needs.  Most importantly I have stopped the financial bleeding.  I figure in about a year I will have chipped away over half of the of the debt and within 2 years be truly back on my feet.

One of the truest statements ever about divorcing a BPD - mental health costs money, but freedom (via divorce attorneys, etc.) is priceless.

TO REITERATE WHAT OTHERS HAVE SAID - NO WAY, NO HOW should you approach divorcing a BPD without a very experienced attorney in your corner.  To quote from another board I sometimes visit - stop taking legal advice from your stbx.

[ForeverDad]

To quote from another board I sometimes visit - Stop taking legal advice from your stbx.

Reminds me of a phrase I've seen here - Don't let your ex live rent-free in your head.

Also, a reasonably normal person would reciprocate fairness.  Don't expect that of an acting-out disordered ex.  So while you can be fair, as a court would be fair, don't be overly fair, overly nice, overly gifting or it will be used against you.

[hurthusband]

Regardless of what happens, you are all correct.  I am going to make an appointment to at least talk to an attorney.

I thank you all though for your support.  The hard thing about all of this is having somebody to talk to.

Many people I have alienated as a result of my wife.  Those who remain it is difficult to talk about this sort of stuff.  It is not just cause it is an embarrassment to me, but because if we do go forward, the embarrassment it is to her and my kids that we are sitting at a dinner table with others who know all this horrible stuff.  People just do not understand a BPD person unless they have lived with one.  I do not believe my wife is a bad person.  I do believe she does bad things, but due to being at times insane.  The behavior is not rational, for an adult.  It is rational for a 4 year old.

It is helpful to come here and talk with people who know what this is like.  To know they are not judging, and to know that the humiliation this whole thing is to myself, kids, and wife is not something that we have to walk around with around others knowing about.

[momtara]

There may be others who understand too - they are hiding it like you.

While your attorney will sympathize, be careful not to spend so much time emoting to that person, as they are expensive.  A therapist will help you and also it will look good in court that you are getting the right treatment (if there is a possibility of you getting some visitation with the kids).

You know, there are people who get appointed to be a guardian.  Is it possible you could get visitation despite not being biologically related to the kids?

Maybe just one consultation with a really high powered lawyer would help you.  You can post on avvo.com to find some in your area... .

[Indyan]

yea this is what I was thinking.  Man... what a mess.  The damage is so inflicted by her... I am just confused and given up

I'm there too. My BPDbf (we have a baby) kept mentionning shared custody every time he was angry this year. Then I found out he had seen an attorney "to seek advice about his rights" (?). Then he kept talking about getting separated, with his family involved.

I got so sick of all this that I finally went along, and God knows it was hard. I finally said "OK, we ARE separated and the official date is ... ."

I did all the paper stuff in order to protect myself financially (I stopped working last year to take care of baby), he didn't stop me.

I mean he didn't ask me to stop, but he phoned the Income Support centre (as he says anyway) to tell them we weren't separated... .although he's left me and the kids at the beginning and the summer and has spent all his time with his parents since then (except for a couple of exceptions when he came here, told me he loved me and we made up for a couple of days).

Seeing that it wasn't enough, he's now threatened to send his notice to the landlord (we're renting our house).

And he keeps threatening (although he denies it's a threat) of taking baby FT... .

Yesterday he took baby away for a few hours, I was so scared that he wouldn't bring him back.

So this morning I phoned an attorney. She was very helpful, very understanding. She said "You CANNOT possibly stay in this situation."

I understood that WE and mainly THEY need clearly defined boundaries.

I have no idea though whether that destroys any chance there might be left to rebuild our relationship, or for him to accept marital therapy (he finally said yes yesterday... .weird).

My family don't understand why I still want MT. It's because the T I saw is specialized in BPD and may be able to talk the truth to him and hopefully calm his anger down.

Anyway, I have an appointment with the attorney in one week, and it breaks my heart, litterally.

Am I not adding fuel to the fire?

[hurthusband]

yea this is what I was thinking.  Man... what a mess.  The damage is so inflicted by her... I am just confused and given up

I'm there too. My BPDbf (we have a baby) kept mentionning shared custody every time he was angry this year. Then I found out he had seen an attorney "to seek advice about his rights" (?). Then he kept talking about getting separated, with his family involved.

I got so sick of all this that I finally went along, and God knows it was hard. I finally said "OK, we ARE separated and the official date is ... ."

I did all the paper stuff in order to protect myself financially (I stopped working last year to take care of baby), he didn't stop me.

I mean he didn't ask me to stop, but he phoned the Income Support centre (as he says anyway) to tell them we weren't separated... .although he's left me and the kids at the beginning and the summer and has spent all his time with his parents since then (except for a couple of exceptions when he came here, told me he loved me and we made up for a couple of days).

Seeing that it wasn't enough, he's now threatened to send his notice to the landlord (we're renting our house).

And he keeps threatening (although he denies it's a threat) of taking baby FT... .

Yesterday he took baby away for a few hours, I was so scared that he wouldn't bring him back.

So this morning I phoned an attorney. She was very helpful, very understanding. She said "You CANNOT possibly stay in this situation."

I understood that WE and mainly THEY need clearly defined boundaries.

I have no idea though whether that destroys any chance there might be left to rebuild our relationship, or for him to accept marital therapy (he finally said yes yesterday... .weird).

My family don't understand why I still want MT. It's because the T I saw is specialized in BPD and may be able to talk the truth to him and hopefully calm his anger down.

Anyway, I have an appointment with the attorney in one week, and it breaks my heart, litterally.

Am I not adding fuel to the fire?

We sound to be in the same situation.  It is killing us literally being with them, but we still care about them. At same time, are boundary skills are weak.  I mean our boundary skills are enough for a normal person, but you have to be mean with BPD people to get anything done it seems.  You cannot give an inch...

My family just does not get it neither.  They thing my BPD is scheming into maninpulating them or getting stuff.  Its not that... I know what it is.  My wife is in severe mental pain, but has the mental capacity of dealing with pain of a 4 year old, but the power of an adult.  So she lashes out at everything around her and seeks anything she can to sedate the pain be it it *stuff* or booz.  She cannot accept its herself, and she cannot accept ___ty stuff just happens sometimes... so she blames me and takes it out on me in psychotic episodes.

I then give in and take blame or try and share blame which does not work because she wants all the blame on me.  I will then give her an inch of something to sedate her pain which only reinforces her bad behavior.  Her need for some relief from pain is like sitting with a drug addict in withdrawel.  They tell you all sorts of crap that warps your own mind into buying into it that they need the drug or whatever.

It is amazing... I am sane and rational person, but when she goes into her psychotic episodes she manages to place me in a sort of psychosis and out of touch with reality too.

I do not think a marital therapist can help UNLESS they have experience with BPD people because these people are not normal.  He probably needs to see somebody with DBT expertise.  Mine is in DBT and its incredibly expensive, and there is no guarantee of it even working.  I mean it has helped some... it is not psychotic 24/7, but there are episodes usually weekly that are massive bombs that go off.  My wife says that from therapy, her identity is stripped and she doesnt know who or what she is anymore.  I think its cause they are raised and used to being a certain way and therapy basically is trying to get them to realize their behavior and pattern of thinking is warped and not right which would make anyone question who and what they are.  The problem is then reforming the pieces which my wife seems to have a hard time with.

I can tell you this... it appears to save ourselves, we have to put boundaries on them, but since we have been weak so far and not placed boundaries, they will rebel mightily and place you in a spot where you wish you were dead.  I keep failing at this point

I am sane right now as I am not being assaulted and I can think clearly what I need to do, but I am sure when she onslaughts me again I will lose touch with reality again...

one of the wisest lines I ever heard was from Mike Tyson of all people "everyone has a plan... .until they get punched in the mouth"

you have a plan then the explosion starts and complete panic and chaos happens and you lose it...

I suppose if you cannot stick it out, you need to leave for your own sanity.  I am at the point where I have to figure out one or the other.  I am still going to talk to an attorney... has to happen

[Moselle]

I am sane right now as I am not being assaulted and I can think clearly what I need to do, but I am sure when she onslaughts me again I will lose touch with reality again...

one of the wisest lines I ever heard was from Mike Tyson of all people "everyone has a plan... .until they get punched in the mouth"

you have a plan then the explosion starts and complete panic and chaos happens and you lose it...

I suppose if you cannot stick it out, you need to leave for your own sanity.  I am at the point where I have to figure out one or the other.  I am still going to talk to an attorney... has to happen

Hurt, you seem to be in a very different place to when you started this thread. well done.

When are you going to speak to an attorney? do you have one in mind?

And when you get punched in the mouth again... .You can do it!

... .and perhaps you can be grateful it's not Mike Tyson punching you in the mouth

[momtara]

When I finally got my exH out of the house - and it broke my heart to do so - I kept looking over my shoulder for the first few days.  I hadn't realized how often I did that!  While I know you love your wife, understand she is ill, and will miss her, I think finally having some boundaries and not walking on eggshells will feel pretty good.  It is a tough situation.  You performed feats of heroism for her and her kids and that's something to be proud of.

[hurthusband]

Yes... I can tell I am shell shocked still... Past couple of nights even though we have gotten along, I am still VERY tense and nervous around her.  I find myself thrashing in my sleep at non existant things, and talking or screaming in my sleep.  Vaguely remember dreams involving her too.  I suspect it might be PTSD which is a bit embarrassing to have over your wife.

I found an attorney, need to meet with them now.  The really hard part about a divorce is its going to be her or me on survival. The problem is that she has kids and brings them down with her.  Being that she is at bottom of ladder at new job... even with a degree... its only $11 an hour.  Basically she could pay mortgage and electricity on that... or feed two teenagers.  On other hand, I could support that when separated and live at my parents as a bum with nothing. 

Need to set up a meeting with attorney to set things up though.  Really tired today... nothing indicates it should happen but I am VERY nervous/anxious she is going to be upset today.

[enlighten me]

Hi Hurthusband

Its not embarrassing to have PTSD from this. I myself felt that I had mild PTSD from my relationship. I have worked in the army and in Iraq and Afghanistan as a civilian and been in some very dangerous situations without being affected. What my exgf did to me is more than any rockets or mortars or threats of imminent death ever did.

[Moselle]

Yes... I can tell I am shell shocked still... Past couple of nights even though we have gotten along, I am still VERY tense and nervous around her.  I find myself thrashing in my sleep at non existant things, and talking or screaming in my sleep.  Vaguely remember dreams involving her too.  I suspect it might be PTSD which is a bit embarrassing to have over your wife.

I found an attorney, need to meet with them now.  The really hard part about a divorce is its going to be her or me on survival. The problem is that she has kids and brings them down with her.  Being that she is at bottom of ladder at new job... even with a degree... its only $11 an hour.  Basically she could pay mortgage and electricity on that... or feed two teenagers.  On other hand, I could support that when separated and live at my parents as a bum with nothing. 

Need to set up a meeting with attorney to set things up though.  Really tired today... nothing indicates it should happen but I am VERY nervous/anxious she is going to be upset today.

Hang in there. Get to the lawyer. You'll feel empowered.

Yes it's heartbreaking to have kids involved.  That's from personal experience.

Perhaps do something you enjoy, to bring you back some energy?

[livednlearned]

PTSD is nothing to be embarrassed about when it comes to these relationships. It's not uncommon. Especially if it sits on top of unresolved stuff from childhood.

If you can afford it, a good therapist will help you more than you can imagine. Just to sort through the stuff you're experiencing around guilt would make it worthwhile.

[momtara]

You will probably keep second guessing yourself as she goes from nice to angry.  Try not to forget how hard things have been.

It's also hard when you both have no money and you don't want to hurt the kids but you also can't give away everything and leave yourself with nothing - esp since she has done things that could make you lose your job.  If you save some money, you will be in a position to help them if they ever need it, and help yourself.  If you give up too much, she may squander it and then you (the sane one) have no control over it.  It's a tough line, I know.  My exH has no money so I didn't ask him for some things I should have asked for.  I didn't want him to be angry.  I am still growing a backbone.

Since you have mentioned that you don't think you have a legal right to visitation, maybe you could say to her "If you give me the kids every other weekend, that will take a burden off you and you'll be able to save money on their care and stuff... ." said in a nonthreatening way that makes it sound like you are doing her a favor.  May be hard to get in writing, but it's an idea.

[ForeverDad]

The really hard part about a divorce is its going to be her or me on survival. The problem is that she has kids and brings them down with her.  Being that she is at bottom of ladder at new job... even with a degree... its only $11 an hour.  Basically she could pay mortgage and electricity on that... or feed two teenagers.  On other hand, I could support that when separated and live at my parents as a bum with nothing.

So... .How did she manage her life with her children before she met you?  I'm just asking... .

She must have managed before and so she'll just have to manage after as well.  When you are married, then it's your business, when not married, then it's not your business.  Maybe that sounds rough and maybe I'm a bit jaded after surviving my custody War, but at least it's bare bones practical.

Priority List:

  You

  Your children

  ... .

  ... .

  Her children (if minors)

  Her

Sadly, you can't risk reversing the proper priority order just because she guilts you or you guilt yourself.  Not in a volatile high conflict case.

BTW - We all had PTSD, we just didn't always identify it as such.  I recall looking down or away from women because of my ex-spouse's overreaction whenever I was around any women under the age of, say, 90.   (Okay, I'm slightly exaggerating.)  Just one example, it sounds laughable now, but I was that deeply affected.  We all were in one way or another - or many others.

[Pou]

Besides the fact this shatters my world...

I am not sure this is a good idea.  I mean on other hand the debt she has wracked up past 2 years is enormous and I am 83% of the income earner with all the debt in my name so in a way that is attaractive since.

I am not sure what to do here.

I know at this point I feel like somebody who has been lying on the ground and kicked by a gang of superpowered villians for about 10 years.  At this point, I do not have the power nor strength to fight anything.  I just want the kicking to stop. I mean the actual physical abuse has stopped, but the mental abuse is much worse

hurthusband.  first and foremost, hang in tough.  I haven't had a chance to read others' advices.  Forgive me if they overlap.  Try to focus on the positives and accept that there will be pain.  Nons value relationships much more than average folks and I think that is why the PDs preys on people like us.  Perhaps, we can become codependent very quickly due to our need to be and to build a meaningful relationship.  Some Nons get lucky and they get it done with the right person and never have to endure the pain.  Some are not so lucky… as we all can see from the need of this forum.  My advice is that at some level you may want an "arbitrator" some sort to help you two navigate through your divorce.  PDs will change their minds on a dime and even lie to you that they never said or agree to something … how are you going to handle that when divide up your belongings?  Or worse, if you have kids, how are you going to have a fair plan of visitation or custody?  You will at least need an arbitrator, or spend a few bucks to have an attorney just to make sure everything is clear.

[momtara]

In the book Splitting, Bill Eddy says that there is a great temptation to just give up on everything to get this over with to stop the pain.  However, you end up regretting it later.  You will give up too much because you think it will help her, and it STILL won't help her; you'll just be in a lower position of power than before.

Money is a good example.  Let's say you give her all your money so she can function better after the divorce.  You forget how many times she's thrown it away on stuff, because it's been a while and she's acting better and remorseful.  The divorce is final.  She throws away your money and tells you you're a horrible person.  And you have nothing left to help her kids, her, or you if it comes to it.

Just a hypothetical.

That doesn't mean you should be mean.  You have to live with yourself and be able to say you did nothing wrong.  And I KNOW this is painful and you've avoided it for a very long time.  Just don't give in on anything really important.

[ForeverDad]

In the book Splitting, Bill Eddy says that there is a great temptation to just give up on everything to get this over with to stop the pain.  However, you end up regretting it later.  You will give up too much because you think it will help her, and it STILL won't help her; you'll just be in a lower position of power than before.

Money is a good example.  Let's say you give her all your money so she can function better after the divorce.  You forget how many times she's thrown it away on stuff, because it's been a while and she's acting better and remorseful.  The divorce is final.  She throws away your money and tells you you're a horrible person.  And you have nothing left to help her kids, her, or you if it comes to it.

Ditto!  Better to guard what finances and leverage you have now as best you can, or else you won't have it for later, perhaps when it is really needed more than now.

Better to avoid obligating yourself more than you have to now... .so you can have something to volunteer, donate or gift in the future.  Give her money now and you can't control or direct how it is used; preserve it and you later have the choice to give focused or directed gifts where you know it will be better used.  You will feel far better giving from the heart knowing it will be used within limits than when ordered/required to pay and knowing it will likely be squandered. - Compare Acts 20:35

When I divorced, I had to refinance so I could pay my ex her house equity.  Refinancing wasn't enough, so I had to borrow nearly $14K in a home equity loan to fill the gap.  I focused on paying off the home equity first and it took me 5.5 years to finally pay that $14K down.  (And I still have over 25 years to go on my mortgage, I'll be in my 80s by then.)  My ex?  I suspect she spent it all - her portion of house equity and my retirement - within 3 years.

[buterfly]

I have quite a few attorney's in my family, and although my husband also requested this, my family urged me to seek the advice of a lawyer. You are dealing with am irrational person here, and it's best to seek advice from a lawyer, in my opinion. It worked for me, and my attorney isn't even all that great. It's more expensive but worth keeping your sanity over.

[hurthusband]

Yea... I need to find time to just meet now with the lawyer I have.  At least see options

Yesterday, she couldn't go to kids football cause of work, so I rearranged stuff not that important and got back from work early to go since its at 5:30 pm and I work 1 hour away.  Rough game btw... tie and my kid didn't even play.  Anyways, after that I took him to pick up his mum for his homecoming date.  We get home about 8:20 and then he springs that he needs some more stuff for homecoming clothing wise.  I am already cleaning up after the day in the bathroom.  My wife has already had a couple of beers.  She then asks if she can take my truck.  I say "no, I will move my truck since my truck doesn't have your breathalyzer in it".  She states she had a couple of beers so she cannot take her car.  I say I will take him and she tells me I am telling her what to do.  I am sorry but if you have a DWI and are on probation, I am not letting you take the chance of driving a car you are not authorized to and especially with some alcohol consumed.

She was pissed.   I just slept downstairs.  Today is awkward.  That is part of the problem.  It is irritating but our kids are being VERY demanding and inconsiderate which really puts both our stress levels high.  Breaking phones, demanding new ones, calling from school wanting to come home when they are not sick, totally ungrateful... I take it as they are teenagers but its really sets my wife off.  Which means its set off on me.

Feeling scared of course today.  BTW, what books are must reads as a spouse of a BPD.  I figure even if I divorce her it could be good reading to dealing with anyone since I seem to find BPD is just a magnified amount of what we all do in situtations with others

[Pou]

Yea... I need to find time to just meet now with the lawyer I have.  At least see options

Yesterday, she couldn't go to kids football cause of work, so I rearranged stuff not that important and got back from work early to go since its at 5:30 pm and I work 1 hour away.  Rough game btw... tie and my kid didn't even play.  Anyways, after that I took him to pick up his mum for his homecoming date.  We get home about 8:20 and then he springs that he needs some more stuff for homecoming clothing wise.  I am already cleaning up after the day in the bathroom.  My wife has already had a couple of beers.  She then asks if she can take my truck.  I say "no, I will move my truck since my truck doesn't have your breathalyzer in it".  She states she had a couple of beers so she cannot take her car.  I say I will take him and she tells me I am telling her what to do.  I am sorry but if you have a DWI and are on probation, I am not letting you take the chance of driving a car you are not authorized to and especially with some alcohol consumed.

She was pissed.   I just slept downstairs.  Today is awkward.  That is part of the problem.  It is irritating but our kids are being VERY demanding and inconsiderate which really puts both our stress levels high.  Breaking phones, demanding new ones, calling from school wanting to come home when they are not sick, totally ungrateful... I take it as they are teenagers but its really sets my wife off.  Which means its set off on me.

Feeling scared of course today.  BTW, what books are must reads as a spouse of a BPD.  I figure even if I divorce her it could be good reading to dealing with anyone since I seem to find BPD is just a magnified amount of what we all do in situtations with others

hurthusband.  you got lots of stuff going on.  from my personal experience, laymen don't get PDs so it is hard to find support for myself even within family.  i don't have a good suggestion to your situation except for definitely getting a lawyer involved to save your sanity as many have suggested.  Secondly, I would really pay attention to your fitness and take time out everyday to take care of yourself, no matter how busy you are.  It will pay dividends.  It may not improve your situation, but it will help you dealing with them and not getting into your head.  Stay strong and best wishes.

[Moselle]

BTW, what books are must reads as a spouse of a BPD.  I figure even if I divorce her it could be good reading to dealing with anyone since I seem to find BPD is just a magnified amount of what we all do in situtations with others

1. "How to stop caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" by Fjelstadt is a brilliant book, and had a huge impact on me. It's aimed almost exclusively at the non, and things that we can do to change. It allso helps with radical acceptance.

2. "Conflict Couples" by Fruzzetti is a very good manual for changes within the relationship on both sides of a BPD relationship. It is about Dialectical Behvioural Therapy DBT, specifically for BPD relationships, but does not mention DBT once which is very good because it isn't confronting to the BPD spouse.

There are other book recommendations on BPDfam too, but of the 3 I have read, these two were the most useful in that order.  The other is Codependent No More which is more general and not specifically about BPD

[ForeverDad]

My wife has already had a couple of beers.  She then asks if she can take my truck.  I say "no, I will move my truck since my truck doesn't have your breathalyzer in it".  She states she had a couple of beers so she cannot take her car.  I say I will take him and she tells me I am telling her what to do.  I am sorry but if you have a DWI and are on probation, I am not letting you take the chance of driving a car you are not authorized to and especially with some alcohol consumed.

Excellent firmness in that boundary.   You don't want to be complicit in her breaking the law.

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder - Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger (essential protection when separating & divorcing; paperback or Amazon ebook)

Divorce Poison - Richard Warshak

High Conflict People in Legal Disputes - Bill Eddy

Note that Bill Eddy writes to the professionals (such as your lawyer or therapist!) but is understandable and vitally essential for us too.  His website HighConflictInstitute.com also has others of his books and lecture presentations to judges, lawyers, etc.

www.billeddy.com/articles.htm

[momtara]

I find that you seem a little healthier than in the past, HurtHusband.  You seem less maniuplatable and more able to set boundaries.  In the end, you have to live with yourself, so I don't blame you for taking so much time to figure out what to do.  Whatever happens (I know I keep saying this!) I think you did more than anyone else could have. 

[catnap]

At the very top of the page is a tab for Book Reviews.  Bill Eddy books are great, which ForeverDad mentioned.  Good for you setting a boundary about driving your truck.   

Set some with the kids as well.  Yes, much of what they are doing is typical, but they need consequences.  Calling and not being sick--ask to speak with the school nurse next time.  Do they have regular chores to do?  If not they need some: keeping rooms clean, taking out garbage, loading dishwasher, mowing lawn, raking leaves, etc.  Life skills.  Praising them when they do what they right is also equally important. 

Glad you have found an attorney.

[Mutt]

I'm happy to hear that you retained a lawyer hurthusband. I would also like to echo momtara and say that you sound better, keep at it, keep going.

[Moselle]

I forgot to mention I've also read "Splitting" by Bill Eddy, mentioned in Forever Dad's post. It helped me get from helpless to asserting myself in a way which protected me and my children. It also helps you understand what to expect and what not to expect from the legal system.

Even before you read them, can I suggest document, document, document. Create an evidence trail of what she does or doesn't do. When mine realised I was doing this, firstly she started behaving better, and secondly I started feeling in control of my future.

All the best, Hurt. Keep the momentum going.

[livednlearned]

Even before you read them, can I suggest document, document, document. Create an evidence trail of what she does or doesn't do. When mine realised I was doing this, firstly she started behaving better, and secondly I started feeling in control of my future.

Moselle has a great point -- this will go a long way helping you protect yourself legally, but it might also help you therapeutically. For some reason, seeing the behaviors and the patterns in one document over a period of time really drove home for me what was happening. It made it so much more about the behaviors than about my almost pathological need to understand why stuff was happening.

Trying to understand... .it doesn't work out so well for those of us dealing with BPD. The "why" is an illness, and unless we can experience what it's like to be them, the "why" is hard to know.

[Grey Kitty]

  I agree--GREAT job staying firm with the truck/breathalyzer boundary!

[hurthusband]

Yea... this morning we went to breakfast before I headed into work.  I could see her getting irritable.

Then she asks me when I am going to get a raise from my job with my mother since I been there 3 years without one.  I explain that its not really the best time since we are finishing up some trust issues and I am named a problem.  I say that I am not sure I am really worth anymore, especially since I am working my other job at this one.

She goes off about if we are going to stay together she needs to know our future and I have to do something about it.  I explain that I have been increasing and that I am mid career at this point and that raises are not just guaranteed things.  That I am trying, but at 6 figures, I am still doing pretty well. She says she does not want to stay at that point.  I say that I am shouldering the heaviest of the load.  While I am where I am at, she just started a $11 an hour job and cut back on her cleaning which paid more and we have spent over $2k in expenses for her job so far.  So it is almost easier i would think for her to grow faster at this point than me.

I point out that I should have been fired at this point for the past week and the outbursts and arguments she had with me at work so i do not think it is a good time

She says i am always blaming her and making her feel like ___.  I tell her she is not ___ and that i believe in her.  That we both make mistakes at times but that does not make us bad people.  I know I have certainly screwed up.

Back to the divorce crap now.  I roll into work 40 minutes later than usual... and have to help some people with her wondering why i am not texting sooner. I explain that I do have work.  She says I do not care.  I say i do, but just like when she cannot talk at her job... I have same situation sometimes but I am putting people on hold at that moment to talk to her.  She says we are done. 

Every single weekend we do this.

She told me she canceled work and everything today and going to bed that i ruined things .  I told her I cannot handle this.  I said I wish i had been aborted since im too cowardly to kill myself.  I shouldnt have said it... I feel it.  I wish I had.  especailly cause she is blowing up my phone at this time im sure about the aboration comment which I didnt think through

[ForeverDad]

Then she asks me when I am going to get a raise from my job with my mother since I been there 3 years without one.  I explain that its not really the best time since we are finishing up some trust issues and I am named a problem.  I say that I am not sure I am really worth anymore, especially since I am working my other job at this one.

She goes off about if we are going to stay together she needs to know our future and I have to do something about it.  I explain that I have been increasing and that I am mid career at this point and that raises are not just guaranteed things... .  I say that I am shouldering the heaviest of the load.  While I am where I am at, she just started a $11 an hour job and cut back on her cleaning which paid more and we have spent over $2k in expenses for her job so far.  So it is almost easier i would think for her to grow faster at this point than me.

I point out that I should have been fired at this point for the past week and the outbursts and arguments she had with me at work so i do not think it is a good time.

Have you not yet learned that you can't reason with someone who won't truly listen?  Yes, you do have to try your reasonable best to avoid any risk of being seen later in court as an ogre but don't expect her to respond positively, or for any positive admission to last for very long. That's a trait of the Blaming and Blame-Shifting, her rules apply to you, not to her.

A pithy observation that has sometimes been attributed to various notable people of past ages, "Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results."  You've tried many times.  And ultimately failed every time.  Further attempts are likely to fail as well.

Also, I too am stunned that throughout my final year together, separation, divorce and years of trying to parent afterward I wasn't let go.  However, it did ruin my health and combined with everything else, like adding that one straw onto the camel's back, I been getting poor job reviews.

I know I have certainly screwed up.

Yes, we all have, but it's minimal when compared to the other person.  The problem is that she's gotten you to readily admit that repeatedly while she never or almost never admits to her mistakes.  Beware!  If she makes allegations against you to police or court, she has you conditioned to say, "I was wrong but... ."  News flash, they'll only listen to the Admission of Guilt ("I did wrong" and ignore all the extenuating details of how little you were wrong.  You better STOP that pattern - that attempt isn't working anyway - or at some point it may sink you legally.

Repeat, none of us are perfect, we all make minor mistakes all the time, beware of apologizing for not being perfect, it will trip you up one day at precisely the worst of times.

She told me she canceled work and everything today and going to bed that I ruined things .  I told her I cannot handle this.  I said I wish I had been aborted since I'm too cowardly to kill myself.  I shouldn't have said it.

Another news flash... .She is again guilting you.  Hear that?  Guilting you.  You are NOT guilty.  Come on, you didn't ruin her day, she ruined your day, this is projection!  Stop letting her poop in your head.  Yeah, that's right, she's messed up to do it, but you're letting her smear it all over.  (Sorry, for the yucky comparison but it fits, doesn't it?)

Another news flash... .At some point she may claim you are suicidal, that you've said suicidal things.  Maybe she's recorded them or saved the texts!  Who knows?  Do you see how she could potentially be maneuvering you into sabotaging yourself?

You need to build an impenetrable shield emotionally to protect yourself from her endless barbs.  Imagine them bouncing harmlessly off your shield.  Distance yourself from the immediacy of her attacks.  Once you can do that you can (in time) begin to laugh inside at her fruitless attempts to break you and keep you wallowing in her muck and mire.  You can (inside) tell yourself, "No way does that apply to me, this is ridiculous, I know better now, you're just projecting your own behaviors onto me and I'm too smart now to fall for that ploy!"

[hurthusband]

Thanks I needed to hear that.  I was at psychiatrist yesterday... i just do not know...

I cannot do anything here and she is just in so much pain.  I want to stop it for her.  I cannot.  I do care, but at same time its to the point to save myself I might have to sacrifice her and her kids.  That is gut wrenching and guilt in of itself...

[Mutt]

Foreverdad is right. I'm glad that you're seeing a P and keep seeing the P.

I'm sorry but at some point it is to save you and the kids. You're not sacrificing her. This may be the catalyst for her to get help to help herself.

You need to get healthy for the kids. Don't let the mentally ill lead the charge. FIGHT for yourself and the kids, they need someone in their corner and that's you.

[Moselle]

You need to get healthy for the kids. Don't let the mentally ill lead the charge. FIGHT for yourself and the kids, they need someone in their corner and that's you.

Thanks Mutt, those are inspiring words. And so true.

[catnap]

She, despite you going above and beyond to help her, consistently blames you for everything.  She does not want to change.  She CANNOT see that her behavior and choices are the main problem for her unhappiness.  That is not your fault. 

She pulls the divorce card quite often doesn't she? 

As FD says: Stop letting her poop in your head. 

[ForeverDad]

My ex too moaned, groaned, lay in bed and blamed me for everything.  Guess what?  After we separated I never heard even once that she couldn't get out of bed.  Sure, I was still blamed but I realized her posturing as a suffering waif was at least partly an act just for me.

I wouldn't be at all surprised that your spouse stops her moaning and groaning too when she no longer has you as a captive/targeted audience.  She will still blame you as before but you'll be at a distance by then and distance does provide you a significant measure of relief from the immediacy and intensity of her manipulations and strategies to keep you groveling and suffering.

[hurthusband]

What do I do about kids though... I am seeing a lawyer, but being that they are both step kids... I do not see alot of rights I have.  One of their dads is in prison and the other is a relative deadbeat.  She JUST started her first job outside of cleaning houses in about 7 years at $11 an hour, and even though she will progress fast I am sure in web design, that still means she cannot afford all she has on her plate...  that means kids suffer.

I mean I do feel horrible for her... her mother is dying quickly now, her father just lost his job and is appearing to lose cognitive abilities, she has a degree and starting at a job that pays so little, she has had a recent traumatic experience with a doctor, she got herself a DWI, she has BPD, two teenagers acting like teenagers...

these are not what I caused, but its a heavy load.  

[DreamGirl]

Locking this one up -- we've reached the post limit.

Feel free to start another one.