80+ recovery rate

[Depression = 72% of members]

I don't know, maybe I'll post a poll. It would be interesting to see who was split black and who just got fed up and left. I am by no means an authority on the subject. But splitting is the main component of their behavior at the end of the relationship. Most nons here seem to be fixers/codependent and I think that most fixers will try to fix until the end.

I wasn't painted black until I chose to end the r/s.  And even then it was only when he realised that I wasn't going to change his mind.  Now I'm the devil reincarnate in his eyes.  I was the fixer/codependent in the r/s but I did give up.  But not until I realised that it didn't matter what I did, how much I worked on myself, how much therapy I got or how many books I read, he was never going to be healthy.  I might have been able to change my own actions/behaviours enough to make it more tolerable but I had to ask myself, is this the way I wanted to live the rest of my life?  Settling for 'less intolerable'?  So I guess I tried to fix it until I accepted I couldn't.

[Pingo]

I don't know, maybe I'll post a poll. It would be interesting to see who was split black and who just got fed up and left. I am by no means an authority on the subject. But splitting is the main component of their behavior at the end of the relationship. Most nons here seem to be fixers/codependent and I think that most fixers will try to fix until the end.

I wasn't painted black until I chose to end the r/s.  And even then it was only when he realised that I wasn't going to change his mind.  Now I'm the devil reincarnate in his eyes.  I was the fixer/codependent in the r/s but I did give up.  But not until I realised that it didn't matter what I did, how much I worked on myself, how much therapy I got or how many books I read, he was never going to be healthy.  I might have been able to change my own actions/behaviours enough to make it more tolerable but I had to ask myself, is this the way I wanted to live the rest of my life?  Settling for 'less intolerable'?  So I guess I tried to fix it until I accepted I couldn't.

[kc sunshine]

For those of us with codependent traits - is this more of the same?  Are we basing a significant part of our healing on how the other person goes forward?  

That's an important question that I've found myself contemplating about.

When he/she idealized us our self worth was validated.

When he/she devalued us our self worth was decimated.

I can closely relate to these statements.

In the aftermath of my post-b/u breakdown this is exactly how I felt.  I was terrified to the point of anxiety and depression and I couldn't figure out exactly why. In therapy I understood my co-dependent thinking and I realized that part of the anxiety was projected on my exso as and some of it was projected inwards. I physically and mentally felt worthless without the ability to help and to be needed.

Note that it is wasn't just about being idealized and valued - but rather around the means to be valued:

* I care therefore I help.

* I help therefore I'm valuable

* I'm valuable therefore I'm loved

=>

* I can't help therefore I have no value therefore I am not and will not be loved.

If they are totally defective, then our self worth is replenished.

That's too extreme in my eyes... .

I totally relate to what trappedinlove wrote. Thank you for putting it so clearly-- it really helps. In particular, this line helped to clarify what I was going through: " I felt she is in great danger without me to help her"-- this helps me to understand that my intense anxiety around my ex's well being (and of course I can trace this back... .anxiety around my mom's well being, etc) is a projection (am I using that right?) The fear is/must be that I am in great danger if she doesn't need me to help her. 

[Skip]

I don't know, maybe I'll post a poll.

We have a poll like that

64% pwBD ended it

46% bpdfamily member ended it

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=39279.0

[fred6]

I don't know, maybe I'll post a poll.

We have a poll like that

64% pwBD ended it

46% bpdfamily member ended it

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=39279.0

I figured it would have been more in the 75%/25% range. But either way, 64% of the time a pwBPD splits from their partner. In that case, there is no staying to help with recovery. They don't want you there, they don't want your support. I know that if my ex wanted to work on things, I would have been there to support her decision. Like most, I didn't get that opportunity. Now it's her problem. I've got enough of my own to deal with at this point.

[Skip]

Believe me Skip, I understand that I'm F'd up to some extent. But... .

I don't think it helps to look at it this way.  If you saw this spoken in a post game (sorry, sports analogy) what would you think of that player?

What's a "clarity statement".  Your ex did a very inconsiderate and hurtful thing in the end - awful - but it is not the whole story.  The story is more about a very imbalanced ship that was never "righted"... .

I still think sometimes, what else could I have done? But was there anything? I saw my place. Did my best. One reason I know the breakup was mostly her doing is because the reasons she gave weren't true, as in they weren't things I had done, they were projections.

One of the comments Shari Maning makes it is to assume that everyone was doing the best they could.  That stunned me the first time I read it.  Is she generally right - that this is mostly true?

That is a game changer in how we understand the dynamics or what transpired in the past relationship, if she is.

myself, I know your therapist suggests that your ex might have BPD tendencies.  But what would he tell her?  Would validate her, too?

If there is one thing I've learned in my years working in this field is that therapists hand out far more third party "diagnosis maybes" than they ever diagnose face to face.  It's the whole patient advocacy and counter balancing a patient feelings of brokeness.

And there's a line there.  Railing against someone who has abused and disrespected us is healthy and justified, and part of taking our power back, while doing nothing but blame and outward focus is a handy way to avoid our own sht.  So where's the line?

This is really the issue.  Each of us being mindful that this line exists.

If you focus yourself at self improvement

To me, this is the right attitude.  The same one we would apply to golf, skiing, tennis, bridge, World of Warcraft… a constant reaching for improvement, better skills.

Human psychology and relationships are far more complex than any of these events and as subtle the skill differences between pro and amateur golfers - it even more subtle with human psychology and relationships.

[vortex of confusion]

One of the comments Shari Maning makes it is to assume that everyone was doing the best they could.  That stunned me the first time I read it.  Is she right?

I think so. I think one of the reasons that I have stayed so long is because I picked up the notion "Assume positive intent and assume that the other person is doing the best they can." I think it was more in the context of parenting meaning that kids are not very developed in some areas. Instead of getting mad at them and punishing them, it is a better idea to keep your cool and teach them or guide them. I think there was further discussion of why a kid will continually do something even when they know it is wrong. It is almost always because of unmet needs. If you find a way to feed the need, the negative behavior will diminish or go away.

Is this idea really a game changer? For me, I don't think so. I know that my husband is doing the best he can. My decision to work towards leaving is about me. Even if my husband were to "fix" everything and be the best partner ever, I don't think I would want to stay with him.

[fred6]

Believe me Skip, I understand that I'm F'd up to some extent. But... .

I don't think it helps to look at it this way.  If you saw this spoken in a post game (sorry, sports analogy) what would you think of that player?

What's a "clarity statement".  Your ex did a very inconsiderate and hurtful thing in the end - awful - but it is not the whole story.  The story is more about a very imbalanced ship that was never "righted"... .

Are you referring to my vernacular? Or my whole premise that I have issues that contributed to the demise of our relationship? I feel that regardless of my issues, the ship never would have "righted". In my opinion, my ex will never seek recovery. Must somehow move forward.

Even if my husband were to "fix" everything and be the best partner ever, I don't think I would want to stay with him.

I have often thought about that. If my ex somehow "fixed" herself, would I want to have her back. Of course the 1st thing that pops in to my mind is "on hell yeah". But its much more complicated than that. I doubt that I could never trust her again. Hell, I don't even trust myself these days and don't know when or if I'll ever trust anyone again. So even if she "fixed" herself, it doesn't fix the damage that's already done.

[Pingo]

Even if my husband were to "fix" everything and be the best partner ever, I don't think I would want to stay with him.

I have often thought about that. If my ex somehow "fixed" herself, would I want to have her back. Of course the 1st thing that pops in to my mind is "on hell yeah". But its much more complicated than that. I doubt that I could never trust her again. Hell, I don't even trust myself these days and don't know when or if I'll ever trust anyone again. So even if she "fixed" herself, it doesn't fix the damage that's already done.

I have thought about this too and my first impulse is that I would be so happy and what a lovely dream but in reality, upon looking back on the r/s without the rose-coloured glasses, we had a lot of differences outside his behaviours.  We had very different values.  My outlook on life is very different.  Disorder aside, who is he and is he someone I really would want back?  How much of his identity is wrapped up in his illness?  Where's the line between illness and personality?

[Caredverymuch]

1. Is it important to you that our exes be doomed to future failure - that our relationship never had a chance?  

Not at all.  In recognizing that so much about my ex's behaviors were rooted in a disorder , I can depersonalize much better.  I was scarred deeply by my r/s w him and hurt immensely but I am still better off bc I can recover.  And largely have.

I hope the same for him. Unwavering.

2. Would it cut you like a knife if recovery was 80%?

What cuts like a knife is knowing that I gave 100% to someone I loved deeply and lost.  Of course I wish the 80% in favor of his recovery would have included the possibility of this occurring while we were together.  Thats what hurts. 

3. Is painting our exes as all the same (as some do) and then black (as some do) a healthy healing platform or something to be concerned about? 

I think its part of the fan emotions of this horrifically hurtful experience Skip.  You tend to stay in that place of broad brushing up there in the fan emotions until much of the intense pain starts to lessen.  Its very unhealthy if the members on this board stop the healing platform  process there. 

4. Why?

Because it allows us to remain enabling codependent who are unable to see why this interaction occurred while putting is at high risk for another unhealthy r/s.

I love my ex. Disorder and all. Enlightened that his version of love and mine are different. Fully aware of why our interaction occurred. I loved this person who was very important to me for many years and I wish our outcome were different. But love is patient and kind. And never fails.  I cannot be in a r/s with him but I hope he recovers. I will always hold love in my heart for him.  From afar. [/quote]

[fred6]

How much of his identity is wrapped up in his illness? 

Do BPD have a real identity? I have read that pwBPD don't have a true sense of identity. I thought that is why they mirror and attach to people, to give them a sense of identity.

Where's the line between illness and personality?

Since BPD is a personality disorder. Their personality is the illness. So in effect there would be no line. That's why it's so hard to treat, because someone's personality is so ingrained into them. I'm just guessing at all of this. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will come alone and answer.

[fromheeltoheal]

How much of his identity is wrapped up in his illness? 

Do BPD have a real identity? I have read that pwBPD don't have a true sense of identity. I thought that is why they mirror and attach to people, to give them a sense of identity.

Where's the line between illness and personality?

Since BPD is a personality disorder. Their personality is the illness. So in effect there would be no line. That's why it's so hard to treat, because someone's personality is so ingrained into them. I'm just guessing at all of this. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will come alone and answer.

A borderline is someone who didn't successfully detach from their primary caregiver in infancy, a necessary step most of us go through in developing an ego and a sense of 'self'.  Since they never successfully did that, long before they were able to reason cognitively, it got hardwired into their personality that they must attach to someone else to feel whole, effectively creating one person out of two, a difficult thing to get your head around at first, and unlike a 'you complete me' romantic gesture, which is a partnership between two autonomous individuals, it's an unhealthy fusing of psyches.  And since a borderline does not have a fully formed 'self' of their own, what shows up is an unstable sense of self, subject to whatever's going on externally and who they're attached to.  Think of it as no internal compass.  And not knowing who you are and being perpetually terrified of abandonment is very painful and confusing, and all of the behaviors come out of that.

[Pingo]

A borderline is someone who didn't successfully detach from their primary caregiver in infancy, a necessary step most of us go through in developing an ego and a sense of 'self'.  Since they never successfully did that, long before they were able to reason cognitively, it got hardwired into their personality that they must attach to someone else to feel whole, effectively creating one person out of two, a difficult thing to get your head around at first, and unlike a 'you complete me' romantic gesture, which is a partnership between two autonomous individuals, it's an unhealthy fusing of psyches.  And since a borderline does not have a fully formed 'self' of their own, what shows up is an unstable sense of self, subject to whatever's going on externally and who they're attached to.  Think of it as no internal compass.  And not knowing who you are and being perpetually terrified of abandonment is very painful and confusing, and all of the behaviors come out of that.

I could say all of this is true of myself as well.  But I do have an internal compass which led me to end my r/s with him.  When I asked 'where's the line between illness and personality' I realise it's an impossible question to answer.  As we were fantasising the 'what if he was fixed' scenario it really makes me see that it is impossible as there is no line between the illness and his personality.  It is who he is.  So recovery really is about managing the disorder, not making it disappear.

My ex had an acquired brain injury which he blamed ALL of his shortcomings, bad behaviours, insecurities, faults etc on.  It was his way of constantly being the victim, never having to take accountability for anything.  I spent the first year of our r/s trying to understand what was him and what was the brain injury until I finally realised it was one and the same. 

[fromheeltoheal]

it is impossible as there is no line between the illness and his personality.  

You're right; borderline personality disorder is just that, a disordered personality, a personality that didn't develop in the way that we label 'normal', or 'ordered', so it's disordered.  As we develop, become an autonomous individual with an ego and a 'self', we go through developmental stages, and if one of those stages doesn't get navigated 'normally', it gets hardwired into who we are, and it affects all of the stages downstream.  So the personality has the 'illness', there is no line between them.

[Skip]

fred6:

Are you referring to my vernacular? Or my whole premise that I have issues that contributed to the demise of our relationship?

That you are casting your issues as "f_cked up".  Own them.  :)on't beat yourself with them.  


Pingo, fromheeltoheal  :)o you know that this thread is about our over focus on our partners (a codependent trait) at the expense of seeing ourselves.

      psst... .you're doing that now  

The line we are talking about is the point at which we are in balance (or out of balance) in the way we are working examining the dynamics of our failed relationship.

[fred6]

fred6:

Are you referring to my vernacular? Or my whole premise that I have issues that contributed to the demise of our relationship?

That you are casting your issues as "f_cked up".  Own them.  :)on't beat yourself with them.  


Pingo, fromheeltoheal  :)o you know that this thread is about our over focus on our partners (a codependent trait) at the expense of seeing ourselves.

      psst... .you're doing that now  

The line we are talking about is the point at which we are in balance (or out of balance) in the way we are working examining the dynamics of our failed relationship.

So where exactly is the line between how we view our own contributions vs our SO's contributions to the failed relationship. I think that line gets blurred while dealing with the hurt, anger, and abandonment issues that we face after the relationship implodes.

[fromheeltoheal]

Pingo, fromheeltoheal  :)o you know that this thread is about our over focus on our partners (a codependent trait) at the expense of seeing ourselves.

      psst... .you're doing that now  

The line we are talking about is the point at which we are in balance (or out of balance) in the way we are working examining the dynamics of our failed relationship.

Actually this thread is about the 80+ recovery rate of borderlines, but as we know the focus can shift and shift again, as in any conversation.  But to your point, sometimes you need to cross the line to see where it is; have we found it peeps?

[tim_tom]

So where exactly is the line between how we view our own contributions vs our SO's contributions to the failed relationship. I think that line gets blurred while dealing with the hurt, anger, and abandonment issues that we face after the relationship implodes.

imo, I don't think the line is much further. Most of these people are a serious mind f to be involved with, the existence was emotionally draining and she was never happy... one day I just stopped trying...

I think it's fair for someone to be on here and say hey wait a minute, you have some issues you need to work through as well. Co dependancy, self esteem, lack of boundaries, whatever that me be... .all valid...

But I think we should be careful not to swing the pendulum too far. It's a dangerous games, by and large here, we are hurting, lonely, questioning ourselves,  doing the work to understand it and our role in... they are out with the next guy/girl living life. The last thing I need is to accept her blame for the demise of the relationship, to ignore all of the f'd up stuff she did, and set some expectation for myself that I should'n't have had needs, I shouldn't have had feelings or any expectations of her at all. It's a bit twisted and probably what got us into this mess to begin with.

Much better imo, for both analyzing the relationship and improving moving forward to understand that

1) It's ok that I have needs

2) It's ok for me to have certain expectations of a partner

3) It's ok also, to set boundaries that prevent abuse

4) I need these things to be able to walk away, rather then stay and let the situation continue to deteriorate

Inherent in all of the above is the understanding that I was involved with a disordered person who was abusive, by any criteria. I stayed, kept my mouth shut, didn't stand up for myself... .all things that I own, but I stop short of thinking that I my role was causal in anyway, or that there is some magic formula that would've allowed me to successfully managed #1 - #3 with her.  This is a pattern she goes through with work, friends, hobbies, everything and it's directly related to the way her mind works... not me!

[Skip]

So where exactly is the line between how we view our own contributions vs our SO's contributions to the failed relationship. I think that line gets blurred while dealing with the hurt, anger, and abandonment issues that we face after the relationship implodes.

It does and we all need to help each other stay balanced in our healing.  Thats the benefit of a group - some of the more senior members can help center and mentor the more junior members and we can all ask that of each other.

Sometime we get a little piranha a get in a frenzy wit each other when we need to be slowing it down and asking each other balancing questions.

Like you you and me Fred.  You're in a pretty raw state (rightfully so) and I'm trying to help you stay in the green zone or at least yellow (no red)   

We all can do this for each other.

[fred6]

It does and we all need to help each other stay balanced in our healing.  Thats the benefit of a group - some of the more senior members can help center and mentor the more junior members and we can all ask that of each other.

Sometime we get a little piranha a get in a frenzy wit each other when we need to be slowing it down and asking each other balancing questions.

Like you you and me Fred.  You're in a pretty raw state (rightfully so) and I'm trying to help you stay in the green zone or at least yellow (no red)   

We all can do this for each other.

I can appreciate that Skip. Yeah, I have a feeling that this is going to take a while to sort out. Hopefully, not too long though.

[vortex of confusion]

Much better imo, for both analyzing the relationship and improving moving forward to understand that

1) It's ok that I have needs

2) It's ok for me to have certain expectations of a partner

3) It's ok also, to set boundaries that prevent abuse

4) I need these things to be able to walk away, rather then stay and let the situation continue to deteriorate

Inherent in all of the above is the understanding that I was involved with a disordered person who was abusive, by any criteria. I stayed, kept my mouth shut, didn't stand up for myself... .all things that I own, but I stop short of thinking that I my role was causal in anyway, or that there is some magic formula that would've allowed me to successfully managed #1 - #3 with her.  This is a pattern she goes through with work, friends, hobbies, everything and it's directly related to the way her mind works... not me!

As I read this, I also thought, "I can reject how somebody treats me even if it isn't abusive." It has helped me a little because it seems like people (me mostly) seem to judge whether or not a behavior is acceptable based on "Is this abusive?" You know what! Who cares if it is abusive? What should matter is whether or not I like being treating a certain way. If I don't want him to rub my feet or do other nice things for me, it is okay for me to say NO without feeling like a horrible person for rejecting his nice gestures. It doesn't matter how "nice" somebody else is trying to be, it is okay for me to say NO. So many times I have gotten caught up in the FOG by his attempts to be nice.

[/quote]

[fromheeltoheal]

1) It's ok that I have needs

2) It's ok for me to have certain expectations of a partner

   

Yes!  And it's important to focus on those needs and whether or not they're being met, as opposed to ignoring them and focusing all or our energy on the other person's, being a People Pleaser.

3) It's ok also, to set boundaries that prevent abuse

Yes, and to also choose partners who won't violate boundaries and act disrespectfully and abusively.  Too many boundaries creates our own prison, gotta let the good ones in, but too few boundaries, or weak ones, lets us get stomped on by the wrong ones.  Another line to define.

4) I need these things to be able to walk away, rather then stay and let the situation continue to deteriorate

Yes, sometimes the only option left in boundary preservation is to walk away, and better yet don't walk into the wrong one to begin with, but live and learn, and we're getting pretty wise, yes?