The mess of the ending

[SES]

I've posted on the new members board already.   Apologies for anyone who knows about this already.

Married for almost 11 years, together for almost 14 years.  

She had an affair... . We tried to work on it in couples counselling, but she carried on her affair,  and was caught out.  She decided it is over.  She lives with me, and our two kids, in the house we own

... while we try to sell up.  Since the affair came out the second time... .Things have been absolutely terrible.  :)espite her continuing her relationship with the man she had the affair with.

I work in mental health field... .She appears to have BPD to me and all of my colleagues.   Manipulation, dysregulation, anger, very angry, lack of empathy,  lies, twisting the truth, asking if I have poisoned her tea, telling me she would murder me if she could get away with it, berating me, baiting me, saying... .'you're angry because I have another man's xxxx inside me'... .

Well, I am now beginning to wonder what the last 14 years were about... .where truth lies, and lies began.

I have been suspicious of an affair more than once in the past... .I now wonder if I was right.  She claims this to be her first... .But has always accused me of being awkward regarding male friends in the past... .Perhaps... . I can't remember I ever was... .Now I wonder if this was just her trying to get me off her trail.  Pointless to dwell on it I know... But it has left so many questions... . Even worry if one of my kids is mine... .

Currently she is staying a lot of the time with her boyfriend... . But is on at least four dating websites... .Which leads me to think she has done this for a long time... . She seems to be looking to jump ship again... .I know there is no point in ruminations.


She has been so bitter and angry... .She appears to despise me... .want to hurt me... .Push me... .Control me... .There seems little I can do other than keep my head down... .Plus, I now worry that there is a chance I'm not the biological dad to one of my kids.

Utter despair... . I know it will get better.  I'm not as depressed as I was.   I feel so let down.

[LeftSidePain]

I love our kids.  Im a great dad.

I went/am going through the same.

I purchased a Paternity test from a local drug store. It cost roughly $30 and the testing facility charged me $100. I had the results in 10 days. They WILL NOT hold up in court cases. You can purchase them from Amazon if necessary.

If you do purchase one make sure the swabs separated and dried with in the small envelopes before placing them in the main envelope to send out to the facility. If possible place them in plastic baggies then put them in the small envelope. You will understand what I mean if you go this route.

Thankfully it came back 99.998% my child. This was a huge burden off my shoulders as I didn't want to break my family up even more. If it had came back showing my youngest wasn't mine I would have had to have the court system prove paternity.

[downwhim]

Borderlines can be so evil and lack empathy. My  goes out to you. It helps to post.

[Sandman1881]

Stay strong SES. I'm spinning along with you. Pray for the best and expect better. We all deserve it.

Never felt so alone and isolated. I was starved for attention then, she's off doing her new life and I'm just trying to keep my eyeballs strait. Talk about a cross to bare.

Blessings***

I was looking forward to Christmas.

[SES]

Sandman... .

Thanks again for your strength... You too?  I'm not looking forward to Christmas this year either... .I hadn't though I was worth so little

... .gave her everything... .  Loved her... .Clearly it wasn't live for her... .She has her boyfriend,  and is on other Internet dating sites! 

[Mutt]

SES,

Is your L familiar with High Conflict Personalities (HCP) and BPD? Have you read Bill Eddy's book? Is she familiar with his work?

Splitting Protecting yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist by William A. ("Bill" Eddy, Esq

[SES]

Hi Mutt.  What is an L? Thanks, SES.

[Mutt]

Sorry. It's short for lawyer.

[SES]

Thanks... .L. Hasn't come across a situation as venomous or extreme as this...    She has been really helpful.  L is in a large firm.  I am still reeling from my wife's conduct.  Every day there is conflict and control.  My wife hasn't instructed a lawyer,  and berates me for,taking legal advice. This is hard times.

[Mutt]

Thanks... .L. Hasn't come across a situation as venomous or extreme as this...    She has been really helpful.  L is in a large firm.  I am still reeling from my wife's conduct.  Every day there is conflict and control.  My wife hasn't instructed a lawyer,  and berates me for,taking legal advice. This is hard times.

I understand. Divorcing a person with a personality disorder is the big leagues in divorce. If you synchronize with her well I suggest you both get a copy of the book.

Here's Bill Eddy's site.

www.highconflictinstitute.com/

[SES]

Thanks for the suggestion... . Yes, this is big league interns of conflict... . I continue to face rage if I don't respond to her the way she wants.  She continues to suggest I am mentally unstable... .She hasn't told me she wants to kill me for over a week... .She continues to contact me frequently,  yesterday 14 texts and calls... .And is livid when I don't respond.  I'm not willing to speak to her on the phone, as there is a high risk of conflict,  which she turns to blame on me.   She appears cheerful outwardly,  although easy to anger, saying awful things, and doing some extreme things, like hacking/checking my phone (now never left unattended),  deleting a file from my memory stick which contained a log of events, accusing me of being in a relationship (far from it... .But she is), saying provocative things like 'you are unhappy because I have another man's xxxx inside me', demanding to know what I spend my money on... .Berating me on every personal level

She had the affair, she said it was over, we went to three months marriage counselling,  she got caught out as it wasn't over, she wants to leave me for him... . Surely she should be happy... .But is she? ... Plus she is on at least four dating websites... .But she says she loves him... .

I am just really hurt... .Plus our young kids are caught up in this chaos

[Mutt]

I continue to face rage if I don't respond to her the way she wants.  She continues to suggest I am mentally unstable... .She hasn't told me she wants to kill me for over a week... .She continues to contact me frequently,  yesterday 14 texts and calls... .And is livid when I don't respond.  I'm not willing to speak to her on the phone, as there is a high risk of conflict,  which she turns to blame on me.

Your defending your boundaries. Boundaries of steel to keep this out. Keep at it - this will simmer down. Talk your L or local enforcement agency with death threats.  It sounds to me you should consider a restraining order. This is mental illness a serious personality disorder.

Extinction bursts where I bolded your text.

Extinction Bursts - Important to Understand when your Loved One has BPD.

We all know that life is a journey and that it’s important to have focus and objectives. This can become difficult if the person "traveling" with us has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).  Because of the associated impulsiveness, hypersensitivity, and dysfunctional coping, people with this disorder often "wander off the path". And we often feel compelled to chase after and cater to them, which, in turn, diverts our focus and often results in anxiety, abuse, and dysfunction for everyone.

According to bpdfamily.com, extinguishing this pattern isn’t easy, yet it is an essential first step in having a healthy relationship.  Taking care of ourselves may feel like a selfish focus - but as the emotionally healthier one, it’s important  that we not get bogged down in BPD induced dramas.  And it's important that we understand that our BPD loved ones aren’t mentally fit to be leading the relationship.

So what do we do?   When the person with Borderline Personality Disorder becomes dysregulated or depressed. bpdfamily.com recommends that you give them the space to self sooth - not try to do it for them.  Take a deep breath and politely and non-aggressively disengage. It’s not easy to block out the distraction and emotional pleas for our attention, yet it is only with a critical pause that we can really stay on a constructive and healthy pathway.

This act is called extinction. We essentially remove our reinforcement in an attempt to stop the  behavior. We simply stop rewarding the behavior.

When our partner doesn’t get the expected response (reinforcement by us) it may scare or anger them and they may try harder to  engage us using threats, violence, destruction, intimidation, name calling, belittling, promises of withholding necessary things, retaliation, or any other painful thing they can think of to get us to engage.   This escalation is know as an extinction burst.

BPD BEHAVIORS: Extinction Bursts

saying provocative things like 'you are unhappy because I have another man's xxxx inside me', demanding to know what I spend my money on... .Berating me on every personal level

She had the affair, she said it was over, we went to three months marriage counselling,  she got caught out as it wasn't over, she wants to leave me for him... . Surely she should be happy... .But is she? ... Plus she is on at least four dating websites... .But she says she loves him... .

I am just really hurt... .Plus our young kids are caught up in this chaos

She's trying to push your buttons with provocations.

Scorched earth.

She feels a lot of guilt and shame, she knows what she did. Her abandonment fears of triggered. At the center of the disorder is a narcissistic injury, abandonment, abandonment fears, the core wound of abandonment. She fears abandonment perceived or real.

I'm a dad with (3) young kids.

Affairs really hurt. It's tough. I can relate.

How old are your kids? Are they with mom or dad

This chaos shall pass

[SES]

Mutt,

Thanks... .Wise words... .

It's hard when I get caught up in it

... .today 42 texts, and 2 calls because I didn't and rescue her when her car broke down... . Weird how she thinks I'd do that after the death threats... .Anyway... .hard not to get sucked in... .it abated probably due to her going to sleep.

My kids are 7 and 4... .We are all in the same house whilst we wait to sell... .Hard as I have to watch her leave to go to her boyfriends for 3 or 4 nights a week... .He described himself as a frequent user if drugs on his dating website... .Wonderful... .

There are good times ahead...

.

I know I have to keep my head down, and avoid getting drawn out... .

I know I won't be able to find resolution or answers in this mess...

I have months ahead of cohabitation in all likelihood

... .Things will get worse when the house sells.


And worse when we split our possessions.

But, calmer water lie ahead.

I am grateful for being able to use this site.

 Helps to connect with others with shared experience... .

I started counselling today... .Talking about it with a stranger makes me realise the enormity of it... .Ie. Death threats,  abuse etc

... and how hard it will be to soon be without my kids every day... .and to embrace the loss of my wife, life as it was, etc... New beginnings though... .Happier times ahead.  Without her, I'll have more stability... .

And will always have my kids.  

[SES]

Suckered in... .And sucked in again... .A big push away thus morning,  with some rage thrown in... .Followed by a pull... ."I'm heartbroken by what is happening "  what do you mean? I say... .Back to being pulled back in... ."I don't known what I am feeling"  "I miss you"... .Back to discussing what she is feeling, wants... .I almost forgot she left me for someone else... .And all the hurt of the last few weeks... .

I'm reeling from being a sucker yet again... .But hey ho... .I need to go back to firm boundaries again... .  I felt less depressed and more in control than the last few hours... .

 

[Sandman1881]

Suckered in... .And sucked in again... .A big push away thus morning,  with some rage thrown in... .Followed by a pull... ."I'm heartbroken by what is happening "  what do you mean? I say... .Back to being pulled back in... ."I don't known what I am feeling"  "I miss you"... .Back to discussing what she is feeling, wants... .I almost forgot she left me for someone else... .And all the hurt of the last few weeks... .

I'm reeling from being a sucker yet again... .But hey ho... .I need to go back to firm boundaries again... . I felt less depressed and more in control than the last few hours... .

 

It's hard to resist someone we love. But you know the truth now and you can make better, more informed decisions. I had nearly no idea what was going on and was sucker punched. Both literally and figuratively. One week massage oil and engagement rings, the next I was trying to get comfortable and sleeping in my car. You have to cut the cord and get her gone. I'm sorry, but it may be the only way for you will be able to regroup and maintain your sanity. I suggest she moves in with the boyfriend and see how that goes over. If not, get her a temp living space until the house is sold. It may be the best money you ever spent. Please remember what I said about your safety. Have you spoken to the local police Domestic Violence unit? It might be a good place to start. Remove the third leg and the table will fall.

Try physical separation for 2 weeks and you all might begin to see things more clearly and really start to heal from your family crisis.

My prayer are with you and yours. Be well and be safe.


Be extremely cautious of any potential set-up situations. I don't mean to sound suspicious but how can I not?

I started therapy today as well. It's surely a blessing.

[Mutt]

The key to stop this push / pull behavior is to put a system in place.

Boundaries of steel. It's stressful when these boundaries keep getting tested with relentless calls, texts etc.

I've been there.

No contact to stop the push / pull behavior.

This takes time SES and many members have gone through this. It helps to talk. It helps to talk to a T.

Boundaries, No Contact, therapy and group therapy. Radio silence with her and talk to a T and members that share similar experiences.

This is the most difficult part. These extinction bursts will fade. Call the cops with the death threats.

There are good times ahead...

I like this. It's true. It reminds me of a quote... .

The hope is there. The sun is rising. Our best days are yet to come. -Senator John Kerry

There is hope SES. Hang in there.

[shellsh0cked]

Yes...  a supportive female lawyer, who has concerns about my wife's behaviour.  Currently my wife tells me frequently that i am mentally unstable... and that i shouldn't have the kids, and that i might even kill myself and the kids... .I have a well managed depression... .Congruent with the loss, threats, and abuse I am experiencing.   No doubt this is the worst part of my life.   I know good times are ahead.  I love our kids.  Im a great dad.

This is mirroring... .projection.  These things are HER... .not you.  She is pushing them on you so she doesn't have to admit anything about herself... .My xuBPDgf told me that I was narcissitic... .a horrible person.  Unfaithful (though she slept with numerous others after fights), disrespectful (eyeing other women including her mother!   ) and that I needed to see a therapist for "my issues".

Been away from her now for 2 years.  It was rough for a period... .Her path continues on same as today from what I hear, and she makes no changes to her life... .and it STILL sucks.  I know I was NOT the problem without a doubt... .It takes time to get over it, but you will... .you will get over all the lies she told you... .about her... .and the ones she told you about YOURSELF that you maybe even believe a little... .and you will see it for what it was and move on.  Those lies eat at you because they cause doubt about what you know about yourself to be true... .that you ARE a good person... .and a good dad.   My current girlfriend of a year (and my damn best friend) loves and respects me and is not abusive to me like my ex.  Hang in there man... .you will laugh about it eventually and how ridiculous some of those things were.  Know WHO you are and don't forget it.  Instead?  Forget HER... .

[SES]

Mutt, Shellshocked, Sandman.

... .Again, help and support when needed... .  I find it enormously therapeutic to write things here... .and know that others have an interest... .

Yes, lots of mirroring and projection... .I even wonder if saying she felt heartbroken might have been mirroring too.

... if you are heartbroken you don't behave this way!

I felt pulled in... .Although the benefit was it has been a calm 24 hours at home... .Probably the best in seven weeks... .A lot less stressful... .She keeps saying she hopes  we can be friends... .I really don't think so... .I realise that detachment is the only way... .Problem lies in that we cohabit... .We have both been advised by lawyers not to leave the house... .it's our only asset and has lots of equity... .Lawyer tell me at all costs stay calm and stay in house... .  Selling will be a problem otherwise.

She keeps telling me she thinks I have a girlfriend... .  Bizarre thing is,  I can't think of anything I want less at the moment... .Plus, if I had I wouldn't tell her... .Her reaction would be severe... .

I have discussed threats with a domestic violence charity... .I went to a walk in... .It's a women's charity... .They were really helpful... .They felt she was practising scorched earth... .Advised keeping records.   Same with my lawyer.

She is back to saying shared care with kids... .Which is what I want... .Surely only timed till she changes her mind.

I asked her about whether she had affairs before... .She initially declined to talk about it, then denied... .  Can safely assume she has.

She wanted to be closer yesterday... .  Probably just manipulating me to meet her needs, requirements in some way.  Having said that, things were calmer than ever in thus debacle... .Pulled in, heartstrings pulled, but calmer... .Hard to know what is best... .  I am mindful now that i am dealing with an expert lier and manipulator... .  I'm almost like sleeping with one eye open... .Aware that all is not right... . 

No contact will be the ideal...   Still in same house with kids... .So hard to practice... .

I work in mental health field... ., dealing with BPD is so much easier at work... .Boundaries... .Compassion... .  Seeing behaviours more clearly... .  At home it is harder... .this is the woman I married and had kids with... .

A therapist at work suggested another tack... ."be a smiling assassin, do what to takes to get to the end of the day, keep boat steady... .But remember the end goal... .Getting away"  ... .I have to remind myself... .Setting boundaries at home, when there hasn't been many before, is rather hard... .and the backlash awful... .I can't retreat to my office and talk about it with colleagues... .  I have to face it... .

Thanks for all your comments... .This will get worse before it gets better... .

I am trying to remain distant... .I usually get abused for being horrible etc... when I practice it. 

It's my wedding anniversary tomorrow... .She is away this weekend... .I'm taking the kids to the theatre... .Hopefully will take my mind off it.   She didn't want to be around... .She felt marriage was a lifetime commitment, and we failed... .Funny,  she had the affair,  lied in marriage counselling,  carried it on... .I wanted to work on it... .I think I kept my end of the bargain... .

How depressing... .  Well, I am hopeful of good times ahead... .Good to hear about fellow users of this site finding new love and moving on from a BPD ex...   Hopefully one day... .

PS... .Yesterday was weird... .I took my kids to Macdonald s... .She contacted me to say she had finished work... .I explained I was at home, but was our with kids... .She wanted to know where... .texted to ask me again if I was in Macdonalds... .Rang me whilst I was there to check if I was in Macdonalds... .Almost paranoid... .Then, turned up unexpectedly at Macdonalds... .Very weird... .

Slightly disconcerting... .  She doesn't work nearby

[SES]

Back to our usual state of play... .She asked to sort out household bills.   She wanted me to pay half her bills... .When present with my bills... .Mortgage, gas, electricity... .  Considerably more... .Rage... .Utter rage... .

Rage... .Sense of entitlement... .  Some lies... .Some distortion... .

Great start to the day

... She is away for the weekend... .  It's our anniversary today... .Good reminder ofvwhy this is over... .aside from the affairs,  death threats, passing me some awful things... .

Anyway... .  Hopefully will calm down when she has gone... .

20 mins later... .She is still going for it.

[Mutt]

A therapist at work suggested another tack... ."be a smiling assassin, do what to takes to get to the end of the day, keep boat steady... .But remember the end goal... .Getting away"

We have an article that covers this.

Leaving A Partner with Borderline Personality Joseph M. Carver, Ph.D., ... .a Clinical Psychologist

Separating from "The Borderline" often involves three stages: The Detachment, Ending the Relationship, and the Follow-up Protection.

The Detachment

During this part of separating from "The Borderline", you recognize what you must do and create an Exit Plan. Many individuals fail in attempts to detach from "The Borderline" because they leave suddenly and impulsively, without proper planning, and without resources. In many cases, "The Borderline" has isolated their partner from others, has control of finances, or has control of major exit needs such as an automobile. During the detachment phase you should... .

- Observe the way you are treated. Watch for the methods listed above and see how "The Borderline" works.

- Gradually become more boring, talk less, share less feelings and opinions. The goal is almost to bore "The Borderline" to lessen the emotional attachment, at the same time not creating a situation which would make you a target.

- Quietly contact your family and supportive others. Determine what help they might be - a place to stay, protection, financial help, etc.

- If you fear violence or abuse, check local legal or law enforcement options such as a restraining order.

- If "The Borderline" is destructive, slowly move your valuables from the home if together, or try to recover valuables if in their possession. In many cases, you may lose some personal items during your detachment - a small price to pay to get rid of "The Borderline".

- Stop arguing, debating or discussing issues. Stop defending and explaining yourself - responding with comments such as "I've been so confused lately" or "I'm under so much stress I don't know why I do anything anymore".

- Begin dropping hints that you are depressed, burned out, or confused about life in general. Remember - "The Borderline" never takes responsibility for what happens in any relationship. "The Borderline" will feel better about leaving the relationship if they can blame it on you. Many individuals are forced to "play confused" and dull, allowing "The Borderline" to tell others "My girlfriend (or boyfriend) about half nuts!" They may tell others you're crazy or confused but you'll be safer. Allow them to think anything they want about you as long as you're in the process of detaching.

- Don't start another relationship. That will only complicate your situation and increase the anger. Your best bet is to "lay low" for several months. Remember, "The Borderline" will quickly locate another victim and become instantly attached as long as the focus on you is allowed to die down.

- As "The Borderline" starts to question changes in your behavior, admit confusion, depression, emotionally numbness, and a host of other boring reactions. This sets the foundation for the ending of the relationship.

When she rages do you step out of the house?

For legal purposes you must remain. Did the L give you a time frame as to when legal assets are sorted and either she leaves or you do? You are going through an awful lot.

[SES]

Thanks Mutt... .

Great advice... .great article.  I'll read it a few times... Lawyer says stay in house until it sells.   Could be months...   If I move out she might refuse to sell, while I pay the mortgage and bills.  I stayed in bathroom whilst she raged today... .extra long shower... .Then she left without me seeing her.  She had a flat tyre an hour later... .And was on the phone wanting my help and advice... .But I didn't reply.   

She found a replacement,  the man she has been having an affair with... .Although they have been on and off a few times already... .She looks like she is looking for his replacement, or to augment her relationship, as she is on a few dating websites already.   

I am finding it like living in an episode of Jerry Springer... .  I am already considering a paternity test... .All I am missing is the all important lie detector test... .Life became so chaotic after the affair came out the second time... .And her decision to end our relationship... .She seems to have unravelled somewhat... .chaotic, unpredictable,  highly unpleasant,  and cruel... .Plus throw in some lies, manipulation,  lack of empathy... .And some psychopathic traits... .Not the woman I married or loved for fourteen years.

It was our wedding anniversary today... .we met on this day 14 years ago.  She made a point of giving me her wedding ring back... .Predictable... .She gave it to me weeks ago, then asked for it back a few days ago... .This time I'll pawn it... .It didn't bother me, which is what she had hoped... .

The rage was about bills, which she asked to sort out... .Then tells me I can't make her pay anything... .Just drama out of her own doing... .  I figured she would not pay me anything... .Never has! 

Thanks for saying I'm going through an awful lot... .I feel like my world is collapsing and being destroyed in Utter chaos... .She makes my clinical work with clients with BPD seem like childplay.   She got divorce papers yesterday... .Likely reason for escalation... . 

I am having a second therapy session on Monday... .Therapist is psychodynamic and is familiar with BPD and attachment... .I am hoping that helps.   I realise what wonderful colleagues I have... .All people I line manage at work who have stepped up to provide me with support, care and compassion... .  She says I am mentally ill, can't manage my moods, I'm all over the place, I'm controlling. Psychopathic ,  overbearing... .   Colleagues (psychologists,  psychiatrists, nurse, social workers)  all reflect that i am a kind, relaxed, far from controlling, kind person... .I know it's her stuff coming out... .But it erodes on a daily basis over many years... .She is hitting me hard where it hurts, my kids and my health... .I have a senior job, manage teams and people, almost finished a Phd, and supervise research students, gave a presentation at a conference last week... .Have a high stress job... .

I feel depressed,  anxious, destroyed,  hurt, sad at my losses, uncertain, confused,  torn to pieces, tearful,  alone (although I have great friends)... .more isolated by her... .helpless and hopeless at times... .Never before have I ever felt so thoroughly destroyed or hurt... .

It is so very hard... .My kids keep me going.  I am probably going to do a paternity test today as I can't rule out affairs going back years,  if not all my relationship... .  No matter what the results the kids are mine... .I delivered one of the in our front room in an emergency... .

She has destroyed some things... .and taken others... .  I'll start moving stuff out for safe keeping... .  Good idea from the article you quoted.

Thanks to you, and others on this website... .I really mean it... .Late at night, when I'm stuck in the house with her... .The kids are asleep... .  I don't feel so alone... .

[Mutt]

Do you have a log book? Are you documenting things like events, photographing the house, assets?

Do you have a voice recorder? What's your State like with laws in regards to recording devices?

[SES]

I'm recording when she is around... .She knows... .so says horrible things very quietly!   She is aware I have been keeping a log... .She looked for and found it on a memory stick... .Now keep laptop and memory stick locked in my car.   I now email a friend my log from my work.  She is rather devious.  I hadn't thought about assets... .some things have gone missing... .  I am.planning to remove some photos for safe keeping... .I probably need to get the kids birth certificates and my educational certificates... .Good thinking

[SES]

I can see the perils of starting another relationship... .  She hacked my phone a few weeks ago... .Sent a female friend a huge amount of abuse from her own phone. Bleeps saying I have a girlfriend... .  Says it would be nice if I did... .I know that the opposite is true... .She would do all she could to hurt someone else

[maxen]

hi SES    i'm really sorry for what you're going through, it sounds simply horrifying, the worst that BPD has to offer. i'm sorry you have to be here, but i'm glad you're here. you'll get top advice from the long-timers on this board.   

two items: she's said she wanted to kill you? has she made a move in your direction? have you told this to anyone else? also, she's hacked your phone, and she's found your flashdrive. how is this happening?

[SES]

Death threats are... .I hate you so much I could murder you... .If I could get away with it I'd suffocate you in your sleep... .

I went to the police regarding abusive and harassing text messages... .  About her new sex life...

I have been to a domestic violence charity about her threats... .They advised try to record her saying it... .Also discussed with lawyer... .and family,  friends and colleagues... .

She hacked my phone when I was having a shower... .Change my pin every few days... .I don't leave anywhere now... .She tried to break it a few days ago... .Flash drive was in sock drawer, has my thesis on it... .She told me she found my file of lies... .Deleted it... .said she almost deleted my thesis... .

Does she sound bad in the greater scheme of things?  Colleagues at work think she is unravelling... .Almost paranoid at times... .

There was violence in the past... .She has hit me... .More recently said that she hopes I die of a silent asthma attack...   As a result have written a will... .Told people... . 

[Mutt]

Does she sound bad in the greater scheme of things?  Colleagues at work think she is unravelling... .Almost paranoid at times... .

I'm not a professional. I have been on the receiving end of this. Not fun. It sounds like a dissociative phase. She's emotionally dysregulated for a lengthy period of time without returning to her baseline. How long has she been dysregulated like this?

[SES]

When she hacked my phone she went through the browsing history... . Saw I had looked at loads of BPD websites... .and about ending a BPD relationship... . She asked me if I thought she had BPD... .I said I was looking for work... .Then she started over next few days saying I couldn't manage my emotions,  I was devious,  manipulative... . Almost like she was reciting a list of BPD symptoms from a website... .

Trying to smash my phone consisted of me leaving at the bottom of our stairs (for years my usual spot) throwing it on the floor, then going back upstairs,  saying... .oops, sorry it was an accident... . It just looked childish and provocative... .Followed by, "you are only bitter because I have another man's xxxx in me."      

[SES]

She has been dysregulated fir last four months or more, since affair came out.  Worse, off scale since affair was discovered a second time... .and she decided it was all over for us... Worse period is over seven weeks... .Psychiatrist friend describes her as unravelling... .Chaotic

Hypomania at times,  bidding on houses without funds in place, almost grandiose sense of self, treating me like I am an object, no empathy,  care free, says that she's doing great, poor sleep,  not eating properly,  disinhibited,  on a few dating/sex sites, smear campaign,  hostile,  easily aroused... .off the scale compared to usual... .Lies, lies, lies, and more lies... .Gaslighting... .  Unpredictable... .Volatile... .But still at work... playing martyr card... .

[SES]

I haven't seen my wife... .or glimers of her, for over seven weeks... .

Drugs may be a factor... .her boyfriend described himself as a frequent user of drugs on his dating website... .

Mutt... .I truly share the pain you went through with yours

[Mutt]

I haven't seen my wife... .or glimers of her, for over seven weeks... .

Drugs may be a factor... .her boyfriend described himself as a frequent user of drugs on his dating website... .

Mutt... .I truly share the pain you went through with yours

I understand. It's difficult when the person we knew is not the same person. As you say a glimmer. One that devaluates and has vitriol - rancor.

I'm sorry you're going through this

[whirlpoollife]

SES, you deserve better.  

My npd x2bhb went through everything , long before I caught on, as I connectied the dots. He found an appointment card in my purse for a therapist , for me.   Since that time he spread the rumors to all he can , family, strangers, neighbors, kids, their L (guardian adlium-(GAL) that I was mental.  That I am the crazy one for ending the marriage. It's the extinction burst and projection of themselves.

He pinpoints the day I though out the marriage ... .when I looked up personality disorders on the computer at home, before I knew to delete history or not to use it at all.  

For you as a parent , document what you do as a parent.  It's hard because most of what we do we just do it naturally without thinking.  So who buys the meals, serves it to kids, who makes the medical appts, who helps with homework, who is up in the night when they are sick, who does their laundry, who schedules the after school activities, who takes them there, who gets kids ready for school. Are you involved at the school.  Think of all the little details.   this will help you later .

Living with your wife now is difficult. After I filed for divorce , h lived in the house for some months after.

What you will be going through is emotionally and financially a roller coaster.   For me,  two and a half years into the divorce process, it's back to the extinction burst tactics from h. But now I am a bit stronger and knowledgable on how to handle it .  

Hang in there.

[maxen]

Death threats are... .I hate you so much I could murder you... .If I could get away with it I'd suffocate you in your sleep... .

I went to the police regarding abusive and harassing text messages... .  About her new sex life...

I have been to a domestic violence charity about her threats... .They advised try to record her saying it... .Also discussed with lawyer... .and family,  friends and colleagues... .

all that sounds good. people should know.

my w also sent emails flaunting her infidelity (knowing that i have major depression). it's just beyond words.

She hacked my phone when I was having a shower... .Change my pin every few days... .I don't leave anywhere now... .She tried to break it a few days ago... .Flash drive was in sock drawer, has my thesis on it... .She told me she found my file of lies... .Deleted it... .said she almost deleted my thesis... .

crikey, i'm glad your thesis wasn't erased!

Does she sound bad in the greater scheme of things? 

she does to me. i'm happy to hear you've taken protective steps.

There was violence in the past... .She has hit me... . 

good that the police know that. did they seem to take seriously what you were saying?

[SES]

Thanks for all your support and advice... .

Its helpful to know this is bad... .It is undoubtedly the worst seven weeks of my life... .

The texts about her sex life, and that he enjoyed having her in clothes I bought her, just left me numb, abused, hurt, empty,  cold, devastated... .

This is really hard... .All the time,it's me who is awkward, vindictive,  etc etc etc... .All her stuff

I. Never anticipated this... .

I am grateful for the support... .Lots of colleagues tell me that this is abusive... .I know it is... .If I didn't have kids I'd walk... . I have to stay to fight for right to see them... She is prepared to do anything that hurts... .There are no limits

... Anything is possible... .I feel.a shadow of my former self.  

[david]

My ex did stuff like this towards the end.

The best one was during one of my SS's (her son from her first marriage) graduation party. It was at SS's girlfriends house. Ex came separately because she was angry with me. She avoided me the entire time. When she was ready to leave and she made the rounds to say goodbye. When she came near me she picked the drunkest gut that was standing in front of me by about six feet. She grabbed him and stuck her tongue down his throat. He almost fell because he was so drunk. She quickly left after that. I was sitting on a sofa next to one of my SS's friends. He apologized for my ex's behavior. I told him that I wasn't sure why he was apologizing and that the way I looked at it my ex was the one that should apologize. About a half hour later the drunk guys boyfriend came up to him and helped get him in their car to go home. That was priceless.

[SES]

Yep, it's tough going... .End of a relationship is hard, an affair is hard... .But dealing with all her stuff is hardest... .

Any suggestions about how to play the school and our childminder?   Our childminder is frosty with me now... .I'm aware my wife has said allsorts to her... .I was so awful and cruel recently (being distant and boundaried) my wife told me she cried when she dropped the kuds at out childminder... .And told her how awful I was being. .

I saw the childminder and said that i hoped she realised there was more than one side to this... .I now wonder if I should be direct... .After all I pay this lady to look after our kids when we are at work.  Or, if I should just ignore it? Any good ideas welcome... .

2 days without her... .She went away... .Last I heard from her yesterday was a text saying she was so lucky... .She ad a flat tyre... .  I didn't respond,  and haven't heard from her since.  She is due back tonight, or tomorrow... .Tomorrow would be good for me... .

[david]

I always took the approach as what was best for our kids. If people thought I was the problem then they either figured it out by my actions or they didn't. An advantage I had was that my ex has serious anger issues and can not control them well.

The first two years after she ran away I would be out somewhere and people would approach me to say something. One example, I was food shopping when a woman walked up to me and started talking to me. She was very pleasant and it seemed like she knew me. I had no idea who she was. She quickly realized that and started to try to make me guess. I still had no idea until she started to give me some clues. It turned out it was someone that worked with my ex at the time. My ex worked in a hospital and I used to drop by to say hello or drop something off for her to eat. I used to talk to this woman when ex was not in her office. She remembered me but I didn't remember her. Anyway, she told me that I needed to stay away from my wife (we were still married at that time) and I deserved to be happy. She said that ex is a very angry and unhappy person. She went on telling me that ex would say she wanted to rip my eyes out of my head and stomp on my eyeballs. I just laughed. The woman got kind of serious and tried to help me understand how serious I should take it. I explained that we have two children together and I had no choice but to communicate with ex until they grew up. That is a single incident but I had about a dozen in those first few years. The most I ever said to anyone is that I believed ex had a mental health issue and I hoped she would find what she was looking for.

Ex left in 2007. We currently are going through court ordered co parent counseling. We only had three meetings to date. I learned through ex that I am controlling, trying to micro manage her life, an abuser. I refuse to discuss things with her about the children. I am alienating the children against her. I need to learn how to parent, blah blah blah... .The last session we had the counselor spend the majority of time talking to ex. I just sit there and listen. Ex is still very angry and I suspect always will be. The counselor said several things that went right over ex's head. I heard it loud and clear so I understand he gets ex has some kind of issue.

I am so emotionally attached it doesn't phase me anymore. The only time I fell uncomfortable is when she attempts to be nice to me. Alarms go off whenever that happens. She is the only person, when she attempts to be nice, that does that to me.

[SES]

David... .Thanks. I might let thing lie. My wife says exactly the same things... .I'm controlling,  don't do anything for the kids, micromanaging her... .I really hope that people do see through her eventually... .To me it sounds like her friends are encouraging her... .But really she only has colleagues,  who she doesn't see out of work... .One friend she sees every month or so... .and her boyfriend... Probably not much to worry about really... . 

Have you moved on... .Found love again? 

I think about how she conned the counsellor when we went for couples counselling this year... .Although our counsellor recognised there were powerful attachment issues, an intense relationship,  and was short with my wife a few times... .  Wife also got caught out a couple of times... .

Good luck with your issues... .  I have custody arrangements to face... .changes every time we discuss it... .From shared to I'll see the two days a fortnight.   

I have started to take things out of the house... .My certificates,  and passport and legal documents...    I'll take something ever day and store at work.

Will she ever regret this, or feels sad about it?  I probably know the answer... .She is disordered, and wired up differently... .  Especially in the lengthy period of dysregulation.

[livednlearned]

Does she sound bad in the greater scheme of things?  Colleagues at work think she is unravelling... .Almost paranoid at times... .

There was violence in the past... .She has hit me... .More recently said that she hopes I die of a silent asthma attack...   As a result have written a will... .Told people... . 

It sounds bad. My ex escalated like this too. So much of BPD behavior is about shame, and lashing out instead of dealing with negative feelings in appropriate ways. All of her coping mechanisms for shame - projection, paranoia, verbal abuse -- are primitive, and are designed to prevent her from feeling her own shame. She cannot fully experience the negative feelings, so she bounces them out on you. In my 10 year marriage, I never said anything about my ex's drinking until I did, and then I was split black and things escalated, similar to what you're experiencing. For people with BPD, feelings = facts. If she feels that you are having an affair, it is a fact to her. She must feel that you're the one who is mentally ill, having an affair, because it is intolerable for her to feel that. Mental illness makes no sense, but there is an order to the disorder. It's hard to see it dispassionately when you are in it, especially when the heat is turned up as high as it is now.

It sounds like you might be somewhere other than the US, so maybe it is different where you live. But toward the end of my marriage I was worried about my safety like you are. Like your lawyer, mine said it is always better to stay in the marital home, but if there is threat of violence, then to get out as soon as possible. I had a separate bank account, credit card, had researched apartments, hotels for a few nights if needed, plus moved all important documents and papers to a storage locker, and had a set of clothes, a full safety plan depending on different scenarios. I also kept a secret phone, a separate set of keys, a whole purse outside (my ex often locked me out when he was in a rage). Think your safety plan through very carefully. I also went to the school and told them that my son's home life was very turbulent, and likely there was going to be divorce. I wanted to make sure that they were gentle with him in case he started to exhibit signs of stress from the fighting. It was a really good move -- I talked to the family specialist, that was the best person to talk to. Do what you can in advance. I also bought a phone for my son and could track him if N/BPDx took him out of school, though fortunately I never needed to track him.

You might also want to let law enforcement know in advance that you are concerned about your wife and think she might be getting ready to do something. If your ex is hunting your phone, you might want to have a spare that she doesn't know about. Or a separate device for recording that you have on at all times.

Documentation is so important.

About your child minder -- I would ask your L what is best. And ask your L what to do if/when your wife threatens your life. It could be that it won't be taken seriously if it isn't documented, gender bias being what it is when it comes to female-on-male domestic violence. Did the DV charity counsel you on what to do? Because getting a restraining order (or whatever it's called where you live) might be the best way to protect yourself and the kids (from seeing something violent happen), and prevent her from living in the house while you are trying to sell it.

It is awful that your ex is dysregulating like this, and the affair and abuse sounds horrible. I am so sorry you have to endure this, SES. I know it is probably hard to see it right now, but when pwBPD are in this state, they tend to have a hard time hiding the behavior from the court system, especially if you are documenting it. She will probably try a scorched earth approach, but most BPD sufferers are very impulsive, not rational, and can't problem solve. They trigger easily and have a hard time returning to baseline. All of these things make it difficult for them in the best of times, but when a BPD sufferer is dysregulating like your wife is, she will probably have a hard time following through on many of the things she says to you, at least in terms of what she plans to do legally. Now is not a time to try and reason with her about what is best for the kids in terms of custody. You can do that with the lawyers.

For now, think about your safety and put together several plans. Matt (a long-time member here who was assaulted by his ex wife) recommends having the name of a criminal law attorney to call in case you are falsely accused of domestic violence.

You are a smart person, and understandably feeling a lot of stress, but you can put this plan together and have precautions in place. Once things get this intense, they don't tend to dial back to the good ol' days, is my experience. Better to prepare for the worst and hope for at least somewhere in the ball park of tolerable.

And read Splitting by Bill Eddy -- it's an excellent book. It will give you really good insights into how BPD and the court system mixes. If you aren't in the US, it might be a bit different, but the principles are the same.

And you have friends here. Lots of collective wisdom about this unfortunate stage of BPD relationships, and how to take care of yourself and the kids.

People here understand and genuinely care.

[SES]

Livednlearned... .Thanks, helpful and stark... .She was away for the weekend,  and came back last night... .My anxiety had gone up enormously on her return.   Back to baiting me regarding being unreasonable and not retuning her call when she had a flat tyre... .this morning baiting me about doing fun things with the kids over the weekend... .'they need normality '.   Showering with the bathroom door open.   I avoided arousing her, by being bland, and saying things like... It's tough times for all of us... .  The article Mutt shared was helpful.   I can't go down the route of making out I'm depressed, as she keeps suggesting this is a reason for me not to have the kids.

When she says she hates me so much she could murder me... .Is it fair to say she actually wants to murder me?  I had thought she was being manipulative,  wanting to cause distress... .She has a responsible job, which she is holding down... . She said she would smouther me if she could get away with it.   Then said she was just joking,  and I need a sense of humour.

This is a living hell.   Walking on eggshells... .Worried about her reaction... .  Worried about her anger... .Worried about what spiteful thing she might do next... .Worried about the kids.   

I can't believe I didn't recognise the disorder sooner... .  I think I was in some form of denial.   

[SES]

I wrote the last one whilst at home... .Things were a bit stressful this morning... .  She was angry, and baiting me, following me round our home telling me off for various this, even talking to the kids on her day to look after them... .I went to my room and closed the door... .She stood outside for fifteen minutes,  baiting, berating,  even in silence,  at one point scratching her finger nails over the panels of my door... .  Almost like a tacky horror movie.   

I went to work quickly, to get a text saying ' I miss you as a friend '... .

I know good times lie ahead... .I am grateful for the support i get here... .I cried when I got to work.

[livednlearned]

When she says she hates me so much she could murder me... .Is it fair to say she actually wants to murder me?  I had thought she was being manipulative,  wanting to cause distress... .She has a responsible job, which she is holding down... . She said she would smouther me if she could get away with it.   Then said she was just joking,  and I need a sense of humour.

My ex did this too. His favorite was "maybe you could just drive into a bridge abutment." I don't know why it was always a bridge abutment    Then he became convinced I was trying to poison him with arsenic, and projection being what it was, I thought that meant he was thinking of doing this to me.

There is no way to know what someone's snapping point is, so there is no way to answer the question about how dangerous she is. When we start wondering if our spouse is trying to kill us, I think it's the difference between scalding scorching hot and scorching hot. You're on flames either way and it's time to listen to the fire alarm and get out.

But if you want to think about it in terms of patterns, BPD is more about infidelity, false allegations of domestic violence or child molestation, "accidental" pregnancy, and for some, drug and alcohol abuse and the risk that go with that. There is a Mosaic Threat Assessment tool designed by Gavin de Becker, the author of Gift of Fear. It's a free online questionnaire that will ask questions, and then totals the questions 1 out of 10 to gauge the threat of violence. I think things like owning guns, substance abuse, prior history of abuse, being in the military, etc. all tend to push the risk higher. It's been a while since I took it, but looking back, I don't know why I needed a test to figure out whether N/BPDx was a danger to me. Deep down, I never thought he would actually do anything to me, but then he had a psychotic episode one night while he was home with my son and I felt he went into a more severe form of whatever he is -- there is a family history of bipolar so he has some more manic behaviors.

Looking at your situation from the outside in, with her threats and prior history of physical abuse, filing a restraining order seems the most logical thing to do. If anyone but our spouses did these things to us, chances are we would not hesitate to protect ourselves. But for whatever reason, we allow our intimate partners to say and do things we would never tolerate from anyone else, and then worry about upsetting them when we take care of ourselves. It gets easier to untangle the psychology of it all once you are not intimate and living together anymore, and have a good therapist. I was married 10 years, spent 2 years or so healing, and met someone "normal" and wonderful and have been with him for 2 years. It is possible to recover from these BPD relationships and find something safe and loving, as long as you are willing to do the hard work to understand what led you to be in this relationship and tolerate the abuse.

I wouldn't be too worried about the depression thing -- if that's all she's accusing you of, then rest assured. You won't have your kids taken away just because you're depressed. In fact, if you are open about feeling depressed about your marriage and say that you've been seeing a therapist so you can be a good dad to your kids, most courts see that as a positive sign. Depending on your legal strategy, you might get a custody evaluation in which both of you get a psychological evaluation. I don't know if that's a common tactic where you live, but it's fairly common in the US. Or, based on whatever recording and evidence you have, you might end up filing a domestic violence charge against her, and the courts might assign anger management classes to her. She won't go, and the courts will begin to see that she is defiant and not behaving in compliance with the court orders.

Whatever you do, be sure to take care of yourself and focus on the kids. If you put her first, your kids will suffer, which means you will suffer. And if it's any consolation, at this stage of your relationship, being split black like this, you are absolutely not capable of helping her. She has blown through all of your boundaries and to be effective, you must be someone who has excellent boundaries. She is in a free fall right now.

[ForeverDad]

The level of conflict skyrocketed when I called 911 and the police rushed over.  Neither of us were arrested.  I was asked to step away but son wouldn't go to his mother - actually shrieked and clung tighter to me - and so I believe my son saved me that day.  Apparently they didn't believe what I said.  My recorder's speaker didn't work so after I downloaded it I called, an officer came, listened to it and quickly said, file a report and we'll arrest her for Threat of DV.  Note this, the officer told me not to drop the case, that many did to their regret, if I did then it would just get worse.  I've always remembered that.

Well, she refused to take a plea deal so after a few continuances we had a short trial after all the other cases were done.  The recording was played, she admitted to making the death threats while also claiming "that's how we argue".  (Um, not me!)  Anyway the judge squeezed a round peg into a square hole by using case law to say that without a weapon in her hands then her threats were not "imminent" and therefore he found her Not Guilty.  In effect, she got a green light to make more threats, she just had to be careful not to have weapons in her hands.  I must admit though, this was our first time in court, we weren't revolving door perps, so maybe that's why he dismissed it without even wagging a finger at her and walked out.

[SES]

A dire warning... .What an ordeal... .mine has stopped death threats lucikly.

Well... .Should have remembered how dysregulated she is this morning... .She was back to saying she was sad we weren't friends... .  If only i was nice to her... .Stopped being so awful... .I was stupid for feeing able to say, I'd like it if we could be friends, but can you stop making death threats, and stop saying im too mentally unwell to have my kids... .Well she threw a freshly made mug of tea at me... .I had recorded the incident... .  I showered in cold water quickly... .  Got changed... .She barged into my room being aggressive, telling me what's what... .I decided to put some possessions in my car in preparation for leaving for the childminder... .  She locked me out of the house... .I was outside for 15 mins... .She let me in... Suggested I am trying to take our kids from her... .Followed me round whilst I got my kids ready to leave... .Then we left... .

Follows numerous texts telling me that I am abusive... .   The later texts saying she wanted to die, that she had been thinking about it for a while... .I eventually responded to ski if she was safe, that i was concerned she is suicidal... .  She responded by telling me she had instructed a lawyer... .That recording her conversations breached her human rights. (a European idea) that i should stop recording,  delete all recordings... .Stop talking to her.

Well a domestic violence charity suggested I kept them... .Plus I have evidence of an assault... .

My word... .Back in house tonight... .it is my day for the kids... .Lawyer says keep to my days else will compromise any future case... .  She has tempted kids to her room to play computer games... .

My regret... .Not being bland... .Feeling safe enough to set out a boundary... .  I was foolish... .Now she is extra problem... .

She has tidied the house... .  Sounds ok with kids... .

Hopefully she will settle down...

Given the experience of the last poster... .I don't want to report to the police... .

[SES]

I feel controlled and powerless

This is a living nightmare

[david]

Keep all recordings. I download them on a computer to have copies available.

If my ex sent me a text talking about suicide I would contact the authorities and make sure I have a police report.

The power comes from boundaries. It did for me.

[david]

Also, emotionally detaching (takes time) is a big help. It I very tough in the beginning. It does get better. I fact, after our divorce was final (4 years after she filed and delayed) things really started to improve. It is 7 years now and I can honestly say her divorcing me was the best things she could have done for me. On top of that, our two boys and I have a great relationship. It is much better than I believe  it would have been had ex and I still been together. I also have a great relationship with SS's ( her kids from her first marriage). I would never have believed any of that was possible 7 years ago.

[SES]

David,  thanks... .Your experience is helpful to me... .A reminder that things will improve... .  all the good times are far outweighed by the bad times... .I am painfully aware of the abuse, control,  power,  that she exercises every day... .I can't wait for this to end.

[SES]

I feel ashamed... . I know I shouldn't... . I am a grown man and I have cried two days in a row at work.  My colleagues are so kind... . I am using a women's domestic violence charity for support... .I just feel so ashamed, weak and sad.  

I know this will pass...  Good times are ahead.

[maxen]

I am a grown man and I have cried two days in a row at work.

SES there's no contradiction here. i wept till i howled. you've tried to be decent and you're being paid back with irrationality. who wouldn't be done over by that?

My colleagues are so kind... .

what a gift that is! your work is a safe place, it sounds like. please know how lucky you are.

I am using a women's domestic violence charity for support... .

women's or otherwise (and there aren't too many men's domestic violence charities, yet), they're taking your situation seriously. in fact, it sounds as if you're reaching out for support, which is a very healthy sign, and getting it. keep doing that and you will find your way through. i was unused to doing that sort of thing at all, i was in a genuine horror for a time, but i reached out to friends, colleagues, family, priest, therapist, psychiatrist, lawyer - and a certain internet support group! keep connected.

[ForeverDad]

She has tidied the house... .  Sounds ok with kids... .

Hopefully she will settle down...

Perhaps, though clearly only until the next time.  You may think you triggered her with a boundary and in a way you did - read up on "extinction bursts" where the new, strengthened or restated boundary gets an overreaction in an attempt to get you to retreat and go back to the old patterns.  However, boundaries are good and essential to any relationship, healthy or unhealthy.

Unless or until she makes significant demonstrable progress in therapy, the relationship won't improve or calm down, it will continue cycling with outbursts and demands.

And no, someone who will rage against others is not a good parent.  But generally courts treat parents like they have two unrelated personas, one displaying adult behaviors and another displaying parenting behaviors.  But that doesn't mean she is a good or even ok parent.  (In my case the court defaulted parenting to her but years later, look at me, I have custody.  It wasn't easy nor quick but I stuck with it and eventually the court figured it out.)

Given the experience of the last poster... .I don't want to report to the police... .

Little me?  Well, it could have gone south, but fortunately it didn't.  But my point was that unless there are some reasons otherwise, it is best to make a report.  For example, in my case I had never made a prior report.  The police were making a cold call with no knowledge about us.  So of course they gave my then-spouse information about DV resources, as she later told me.  By default women get a default preference, at least so it seems, even the law defers to women with The Violence Against Women Act of 1994.  What gets lost in the clamor and rhetoric is that the DV of women against men is not zero.

What made then difference for me was that (1) in the moment my son refused to leave me for his mother and (2) I had a recording of the incident that later confirmed my account.  Also, remember that the officer encouraged me to make a report and warned me to beware of dropping the matter since dropping a case would not be wise.  My point is that filing a police report could help you later, if only to get the first responders to look at more people as perps than just you.

I viewed my recordings - I had started about 6 months before - as 'insurance' that I wasn't the one misbehaving.  I remember asking a relative to hold on to my backups since I was afraid they might be found and destroyed.  However, I never waved around a recorder or microphone, I kept it low level and in the background, often just in my pocket.  (Today there are so many ways to record, there are even pen cams that are even functioning pens.)

Understand that a disordered person's demands are selfish demands... .abdicating, appeasing and complying won't help you.  So what to do?  Be informed of your options, have a strategy or several strategies.  No, that's not devious, that's smart, even street smart.  Be defensive yet proactive.

Very likely you cannot keep it out of the courts.  Divorce requires a court action, generally an adversarial process, and quite often in our cases the misbehaving spouses will try to make us look worse than them.  Knowing that some level of conflict, court action and even allegations are unavoidable, prepare of contingencies and handle things so you aren't the one framed and virtually defenseless against false allegations and other legal maneuvers to keep you reactive rather than proactive.

[livednlearned]

I think everyone on this board has been where you are, SES.

The thing you are most afraid of doing is the thing that will turn this around, and that is setting a boundary. Whether it's calling the police to report an assault, or calling to report that your wife has suicidal ideation. The tricky part at this point is to have a good plan in place when you set that boundary.

Being passive did not work for anyone here. Being assertive is not be aggressive, though to conflict-avoiders, it can feel that way at first. You've been beaten down by a serious mental illness, and it does not make a difference what gender you are.

What david said applies to me as well. Leaving my ex is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I read that the Chinese character for crisis has two parts: one means danger and the other means opportunity. Your crisis will become an opportunity for profoundly deep healing and what you learn will get passed to your kids. My T said I was changing my family script is she was right. It's the FOG lifting, and things are so clear.

Be kind to yourself right now.

[SES]

I need a good plan regarding setting the boundary... .And also how to cope with the fall out.

After the flurry of yesterdays events, she started messaging that she had instructed a lawyer,  and that the lawyer would be in touch with me.  At least I can leave it all to the lawyers.  I have a feeling she will still try to prevent me from having shared care of our kids.   But that will be out of my hands.  Someone previously posted that she was likely to go through courts.

[maxen]

I have a feeling she will still try to prevent me from having shared care of our kids.   But that will be out of my hands. 

no, it won't. do you have a lawyer yet?

[david]

Lawyers contact other lawyers. They don't contact the other attorneys client. It is a threat of sorts or an attempt to engage.

I learned years back that negative engagement is still engagement. The meaning of that has evolved the more I dealt with ex.

Boundaries are important. I needed to seriously think through some boundaries to make sure my boundary was best for all involved. My focus has always been our two boys.

One boundary I stuck to is email only communication. It gives me time to sort through what ex is saying and I can focus on the parts that involve the kids. The rest I ignore.

Keep documenting everything you can. One event in court is not a big deal. A history of events makes a difference.

[SES]

Maxen and David

Thanks... .Yes,,  I instructed a lawyer ages ago.  She hasn't responded to the lawyers letter to her from a few weeks ago.  Yes... .She is trying to engage me... .and continue to threaten me. Thanks for reminding me...  

It is something new every day.  She still walks round the house in pants and a vest, and showers with the bathroom door open.  It's all about her disorder.  She is unpredictable.

[ForeverDad]

I have a feeling she will still try to prevent me from having shared care of our kids.   But that will be out of my hands.

no, it won't. do you have a lawyer yet?

I agree, you are one of the two parents, so you DO have a say.  How much - both initially and then later on over time - we can't predict.  But you most definitely are NOT locked out of the process.  However, if you have a fatalistic view and sit back waiting for the court to do everything for you, you WILL be left out of the equation and become the typical alternate weekend dad expected to walk away into the background and leave his wallet behind.

[Mutt]

SES,

You have witnessed firsthand her behavior. The kids need a voice for them. They need your voice.

[SES]

Thanks... .  I needed a talking to... .I appreciate it.  It brings tears to my eyes reading my blog, and the support you have all given me. 

I went to the domestic violence charity today... .No surprises,  they advised me to avoid feeling fatalistic... .And that she won't prevent me from accessing my kids regularly... .As a women's charity that see violent men gaining regular access to their kids... .I am currently sharing care... .and even delivered one of my kids in my home.  I have an appointment with lawyer thus afternoon... .I know what she is going to say already... .  She has already told me I have a good case for shared care.  I'm fighting... .They are my kids... I have a record of two months events... .an audio recording of her assaulting me... .and her text message saying she was suicidal... . 

Thank you for the support... .I never realised how powerful an online community/forum could be. 

[livednlearned]

It's a really good idea, if not critically important, to have a therapist you can talk to.

A lot of us tend to self sabotage during these divorces because we've been avoiding conflict for so long and our thought patterns become disordered and defeatist. When you have had some time away from the constant conflict, you will begin to change and your strength will come back.

That's the good news.

The unfortunate news, and the reason why people here care so much about sharing experiences with family court, is that it is very difficult (thought not impossible) to change the court order. Beware of any document referred to as "temporary" like a temporary custody order, because they have a habit of becoming permanent. Family court is a very slow moving institution and does not pivot quickly.

A therapist, even one that does not know much about family law, can help check your thinking before you make long-lasting decisions that will have a deep impact on your and your kids for years to come.

Likewise, people here will point things out. Not just legal experiences, but the kinds of psychological changes that are around the corner for you.

It really does get better, SES.

[SES]

I started therapy... .Although I worry she is out if her depth... .It's free and provided by my employer... .So  all good.

Lawyer helpful... .I feel really confident in her... .She had given me a pep talk... .and told me my rights... .I don't feel as scared now... .I have a good case if it turns ugly... .and she has suggested a legal manouvere to consider... .I like her.  She said my situation was messy... .I'm comparison to the rest of her usual cases... .But she thought it played well in our direction.  I'm not going to get screwed.  I'm going to see my kids... .It's hard at present... .But there is light.   

Thanks everyone... .I'll be back for another pep talk without any doubt... .But today... .I'm not feeling too scared, and feel hopeful. (The saga will undoubtedly continue.)

[david]

I went to a few therapists before I found one that was a fit for me. The others were okay but I didn't get that we clicked. Not sure if that makes sense. Once I found one that seemed to get me things went well. It took time to work through things and some of my own self sabotaging beliefs. I remember feeling like I was never going to see our kids or it would be so little time that I would become just another person to them. I thought ex would get everything she originally asked for.

The T helped a lot. This site helped a lot. I emotionally detached and that helped a lot. I learned the rules of the game in court. Those things helped me make better decisions for our boys. Ex hasn't changed much and that makes it so much easier in dealing with her. I put boundaries in place and ex tried to bulldoze through them(extinction burst). I stay firm if the boundary makes sense. I make few boundaries but when I do I have many reasons that are well thought out. I don't react to her anymore. The more boring I become the less fix she gets and things become quieter. This started in 2007 so it wasn't sudden. I made lots of mistakes the first three years as I learned.

It does get better.

[SES]

Last week was a roller-coaster... .  Assaulted twice,  us she stole my legal documents... .  She was arrested and got conviction for assault.   Back in house together... .Just waiting to see what comes next.

[SES]

Also... .It made me review my messages from her over recent months.  She has made death threats... .Someone posted a reply to ma asking if she had ever told me she wanted me to disappear... .Well, I found a text saying just that... .and another hoping I die of a silent asthma attack... .

[david]

How can she live in the same house with someone she was convicted of assaulting ?

[SES]

Good question...  She now has a record for assault... .down to me to seek an injunction against her... .Which I what I have already applied for.  Christmas and new year really slows the legal system though... .

It's fair to say she is unapologetic, and almost righteous in her attitude... . 

I am waiting for the fallout when she receives a summons for a court hearing for the injunction... .At same time I am asking for an injunction telling her to move out... .

This isn't a good Christmas.  

[SES]

Erroneously I thought a police record might curb her behaviour... .Fair to say, it might be worse.  I have to remember to play dead and be bland.   She is baiting,  cruel, and threatening again... .I found myself being drawn into conflict... .

[Sandman1881]

Also... .It made me review my messages from her over recent months.  She has made death threats... .Someone posted a reply to ma asking if she had ever told me she wanted me to disappear... .Well, I found a text saying just that... .and another hoping I die of a silent asthma attack... .

That was me SES. Stay smart and ahead of the curve.

Unbelievable isn't it?

[livednlearned]

Also... .It made me review my messages from her over recent months.  She has made death threats... .Someone posted a reply to ma asking if she had ever told me she wanted me to disappear... .Well, I found a text saying just that... .and another hoping I die of a silent asthma attack... .

I was surprised to learn that in my state, death threats are only noteworthy to law enforcement if they are specific. My ex made threats but according to one cop who answered my call, he said that "I can't wait for you to die" and "You will never see S13 again" and "You'll be sorry for what you did, say good bye to everyone now" is not the same as "I am going to kill you." But given the assault charges and maybe the volume of messages, it might be different where you live.

It's so awful that you had to go through this, SES. If you could graph these high-conflict divorces, our graph, the non-BPD line, starts at the bottom and goes up, slowly but surely, with a few dips, but overall moves up and up in the right direction. But so-called "high-functioning" people with BPD tend to remain disordered and their graph jags up and down, and dips lower and lower over time. As stressful as that is, it ends up making things more promising and manageable for us legally. That really matters when kids are involved.

Sometimes I think the worst thing pwBPD struggle with is impulsivity -- seems so benign to say that, given how awful the consequences of their impulsive actions can be for us. But with my ex, even after the judge slapped a gatekeeping order on him, N/BPDx could not stop himself from making his situation worse. If the judge said don't do this or else you lose legal custody or visitation, N/BPDx did it. That goes to your point about police records curbing behavior. In my experience, pwBPD are so disordered that they cannot check their impulsive behavior, and sabotaging themselves in full view of court is even considered by Bill Eddy (author of Splitting) to be a sign that someone is BPD.

I'm glad you have a lawyer you like, and are seeing a T. Might be worth asking your T if he/she has worked with someone whose spouse is BPD to the degree that your wife is, and go from there. My T told me most of her clientele seems to be people with BPD family members -- I wonder sometimes if codependent people are the cash cow of the therapeutic industry.   She also has several war stories of her own, having been sued twice by clients that were BPD. That made her treat my situation with a sense of urgency and I found her to be action-oriented, which got me to wake up and pay closer attention than I had been.

Do you have a safety plan in place for when your wife finds out about the injunctions? Changing locks, for one. Putting cameras up if you can afford to, having a spare set of keys somewhere you can get to, recording devices, a separate bank account, a place to go if she does something to the house, somewhere for the kids to stay if necessary, etc.

[SES]

Livednlearned... .Thanks...   Police didn't do anything with the threats.

Yes,  she remains unpredictable... . She started the day telling me she has a statement from someone whom I told... . If I can't keep my wife I'm going to kill myself and my kids!   Foolishly I engaged in discussion about this... .Ie. It's not anything I have ever thought, let alone said.  She then threatened to call the police, as she felt threatened by me.  I reminded her I was recording everything,  and said she should ring if she wants... .But she didn't.    She then sent numerous texts wanting to sort out our childcare arrangements,  and asking to talk, to shake hands, move on... .I replied that iwas happy to arrange things by text message... .But she then sent texts saying she was going to think about childcare.

Lawyer thought she wouldn't slip up again... .I can see the impulsiveness today... Felt outfit control again. She is predictably unpredictable... .   I am wondering what next.   No second guessing.  

Changing goal posts, threats, controlling, nasty, lying... .

I was foolish to think a record might moderate things... .Looks as bad as last week.    She still hasn't responded to my lawyer,  or sent divorce papers back to court.   She doesn't pay anything towards the house.   She sees her boyfriend.    She likes to bait me.  I feel controlled in so many ways.  All the spare keys are missing.    I keep valuable documents off site.   I have a safety plan.   Injunction isn't guaranteed... . I feel on the back foot again.

Any suggestions on how to move her towards agreeing our childcare?  I'd quite like to plan for the next week.

I am in my room, avoiding contact, kids come in every now and then... .This is awful... .A living hell... .I am fearful of her.   I was assaulted... .Now I'm in. my room living in fear of her.  

[livednlearned]

Your body -- feeling fear -- is a smart response, and it's good to listen to it.

About getting her to agree to childcare. I never found there was anything that could get my ill, disordered, and sometimes psychotic ex to agree to anything. And when and if he did agree, it meant nothing. What are the specifics of what you need to arrange? Can you break things down into small parts and work on one thing at a time? When I began to see that the grown man I was married to was in fact a young child, it made it easier to try and arrange our lives as though I was the sole adult. The hard part is that these grown ups can drive cars and fool other people into thinking they too are adults.

Until you have some legal protections in place, law enforcement probably cannot do much to prevent your wife from doing what she wants. If you arrange childcare with a babysitter, for example, there is likely not much you can do to prevent her from picking the kids up. If your workplace is supportive, could you go to human resources or whatever department takes care of staffing and schedules and let them know your family is experiencing a crisis, and you need to take care of the kids until things get settled? I told my boss what was happening in the early stages when my marriage began to unravel -- or explode is more like it -- and was shocked to discover this influential strong boss had gone through something similar with her abusive ex husband, right down to fleeing the house with her kids. I learned through therapy that doing things like this is what people mean when they say take care of yourself. Ask for help right now -- you may be surprised to learn that you aren't going through this kind of thing alone.

How are your kids doing right now? Stress and conflict like this often takes a high toll on kids, though they may express it in different ways than adults.

[ForeverDad]

Your body -- feeling fear -- is a smart response, and it's good to listen to it.

About getting her to agree to childcare. I never found there was anything that could get my ill, disordered, and sometimes psychotic ex to agree to anything.

Until you have some legal protections in place, law enforcement probably cannot do much to prevent your wife from doing what she wants. If you arrange childcare with a babysitter, for example, there is likely not much you can do to prevent her from picking the kids up. If your workplace is supportive, could you go to human resources or whatever department takes care of staffing and schedules and let them know your family is experiencing a crisis, and you need to take care of the kids until things get settled? ... .I learned through therapy that doing things like this is what people mean when they say take care of yourself. Ask for help right now -- you may be surprised to learn that you aren't going through this kind of thing alone.

A lot of what she is doing is Extinction Burst.  She sees you setting a new or firmer boundary and her immediate response is to raise the conflict expecting you to appease or retreat back to the old status quo as appeaser, muddy doormat or Whipping Boy.

I recall when my now-ex threatened my life and for the first time I called 911.  Police came, I suspect I was almost carted off but for my preschooler clinging to me and refusing to go to his mother.  (What kid won't go to his mother?)  After they left she was so disrespectful and vindictive, telling me they gave her DV resources, etc.  I knew the marriage was imploding, all I could do was try to survive in one piece so I went ahead and made a police report of what really happened to make me call 911.  She ended up arrested and she never returned to the house, I even offered reconciliation (self-sabotaging behavior) but she refused that.

With it being raised to a new level - court involvement - you are probably permanently rejected as I was.  Her goal is probably to intimidate you enough to coerce you to retreat from your boundaries.  Meanwhile she will do everything she can to make you appear worse than her so whatever else, don't let her baiting you make you react or overreact.  Right now it is especially vital that you be squeaky clean regarding poor behaviors.  No shouting back, no direct or indirect threats, nothing that could be twisted into claimed aggression, threats or attacking.

Likely you will get little or no cooperation from her.  Right now you will get more progress from the court than from her.  Accept that, adjust your strategies accordingly.  Remember, she may be convinced she is the Entitled Grand Authority, but court authority trumps her.

[SES]

Thanks both... .Yes, this isn't going to be pretty... .She took kids out.  No court orders in place, so childminder,  school etc,  will all have to let her have them...   I just want shared cared of kids... .they need their mum... .I  don't want to deny them their mum or her the kids... .   

Police record has upped anti... .Friend pointed out she is baiting... .I'm going to try to be ultra bland.  And keep recording, backing up, recording,  backing up... .etc.

It is helpful to remember how many people go through this... .   I tried an emergency injunction this week... .But no joy... .Judge said she needed to be present to give her side... .He then said that things would get better... .in the long run... .And that i appeared to have a strong case... .I might ask lawyer to represent me at the hearing when it comes round... .save me having to argue with my wife in court.   Might be money well spent. 




In the meantime,  head down, watching movies. 

Kids seem ok... .Although recently I have heard them say liar a lot... .something my wife calls me.  I am still surprised how convincing she can seem when she lies... .disagree and she keeps going... .louder and louder... .But the lies flow freely... .And to many will  seem convincing... .She managed to get her sister to ring a relative of mine and tell her I was a risk of killing myself and the kids.      I think her sister is convinced!   It is a lie, that having been told so many times. Too so many people... .Almost sounds believable... .Except it is a rather hurtful lie... .

Why didn't I recognise this over the fourteen years... .Have I been brain washed? 

[livednlearned]

Why didn't I recognise this over the fourteen years... .Have I been brain washed?  

It seems like people who tolerate this level of abuse were subjected to something similar as kids. We learn intimacy from family, and what we learn, whether it's abusive or not, becomes normal. You may not be able to spot abuse when it runs throughout your family, not until it gets into the red zone when you become married to someone abusive. So when abuse surfaces in marriage, it only becomes noticeable when it escalates. Many people here are conflict-avoidant, though not all. Being conflict avoidant tends to equal soft boundaries, and people with BPD are either drawn to that, or we are the only people who will tolerate them, I don't know.

I didn't recognize how serious my situation was until the final year. The cognitive dissonance stopped working   and I think that happened because I started to talk to a therapist, and eventually confided to a friend. Then colleagues at work. It became more and more difficult to hide it from myself, that something was seriously wrong.

So brainwashing? Perhaps. But likely something tricky was going on in your childhood that made you primed for an abusive marriage. I don't have BPD parents, but a father with narcissistic traits. He trained me so well -- I believed that he loved me when I didn't complain about the physical abuse from my uBPD brother. I learned that being loved = tolerating abuse. If I complained, it upset the covert narcissism of our family, that we were perfect. That script was exactly what later played out in my marriage, although the level of pain and suffering was a magnitude worse because N/BPDx was a fall-down drunk, and we had a son together. I somehow managed to tolerate the abuse when it was directed to me, but when I saw my son become the target, that was the canary in the coal mine. It was so shocking how my son was transferring our family dynamic to his peer dynamics. I saw how this stuff gets passed on to the next generation. Fortunately (or not?) N/BPDx became crazier and crazier and there was no way to pretend it wasn't happening anymore. I could not travel for work because I feared what would happen to my son while I was gone.

You may learn over the years that kids need a healthy mother, and their mom is anything but that. Your job will be to help them make sense of her, why she is the way she is, and to help them develop into healthy adults despite a disordered, mentally ill mother. My son's father lost custody and visitation, and I wonder about this. Does he need his dad? Yes. But not the sick one that exists now. It's a different kind of grieving, but at least I am not working against that toxicity. There will be grieving, as anyone would feel upon losing a parent. There won't be serious damage to his sense of self, though. My son's teachers comment on how well he knows who he is, that he has insights into himself well beyond his years. He is still struggling, but no more than I did in my 40s in many ways. My hope is that he will sort this out before his peers do, often in their 20s, and that he will manage to avoid having a dysfunctional abusive relationship like his parents.

When your kids call you a liar, ask them why they think that. Get them to focus on what it is about. A really fantastic book to read to help you help them is Power of Validation, written for parenting. Your wife is beginning to try and alienate them and you can be a step ahead of this stuff if you have tools in place. If you defend yourself, it's a slippery slope. But if you get them to reflect on what they think, where the thoughts come from, often it goes back to garbage, and only they can learn to determine who is telling the truth. Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak is also very good -- get ahead of the parental alienation as much as you can. There is often a battle for custody, and a battle for the hearts and minds of the kids. You need to address both, and both of those books will help. I also liked Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. Those three books were like magic potions for me when N/BPDx began to really lay on the parental alienation.

[Panda39]

It's so easy to get sucked in I know. 

It begins as something small and you take it, you can deal with it, you can fix it, you can take care of it, you can ignore it, you don't speak up. You know he loves you and means well.

Then those little things happen over and over and you take it, you can deal with it, you can fix it, you can take care of it, you can ignore it and you don't speak up. You know he loves you the pain he caused wasn't intentional.

Then something big happens and you take it, you can deal with it, you can fix it, you can take care of it, you can ignore it and you don't speak up. You know he loves you now something so big has happened that he will finally realize he needs to get help... .but doesn't.

Then something happens and it's just the way it is, it's normal, and you don't know that you should speak up. He throws knives at you (I get slapped) but you know he loves you.

It is an insidious process.

Hi SES,

Above is a quote of mine from another thread.  I'm on this website because my boyfriend has an uBPDxw.  However, I have my own history.  Part of that history is an abusive boyfriend (verbal, emotional & physical).  Knowing what I know now I suspect he is BPD.

The above quote comes from a discussion about abuse and the things we tell ourselves.  Is it brainwashing? No it's abuse. It's us trying to keep the peace, us trying to make nonsense make sense, us trying to fix what is broken... .us twisiting ourselves into pretzels trying to make it okay for that other person... .abuse.

Panda

P.S. I'm glad you've stayed with us 

[SES]

Panda and livednlearned... .Thanks for sharing your personal experiences ... . I recognise my mother in my wife at times...  I realise my mother was a cruel, manipulative,  lying, cheating bully... .Probably had BPD... .I see my dad in me... .Quiet, keeping peace, down trodden, undervalued,  stable... .Almost not present... .Only able to get to know him when he is on his own... .   

I wonder if her lying works like brainwashing... . Some corkers recently... . Almost convincing... .If I didn't know the truth.

I'm hoping the kids  will eventually see through her... .Like my wife did with her BPD mother... .

Panda... .I'm really glad I found this website... .And really glad for the support... .it means a lot when times are so hard... .It gives me one more thing to hold on to.   Thank you.

[Panda39]

I wonder if her lying works like brainwashing... .  Some corkers recently... .  Almost convincing... .If I didn't know the truth.

What you are describing is gaslighting.  There are many posts on the subject, I've pulled a couple and you can do your own just search "gaslighting"

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=229703.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=59305.0

[SES]

Yes, Gaslighting... .


The big one she is pushing is that i have thoughts of killing myself and my children... .  She even had her sister ring a relative of mine and suggest this... .apparently she has a witness statement from someone I told this too... .

Gaslighting... .  It sure is abuse... .and I'm sure she wants a reaction... .

It's quite evil... .I'm am sick of hearing this lie, over and over again... .

Time to switch off from what she is saying... .And her baiting... .

Are all BPD exs this awful? 

[livednlearned]

Yes, Gaslighting... .


The big one she is pushing is that i have thoughts of killing myself and my children... .  She even had her sister ring a relative of mine and suggest this... .apparently she has a witness statement from someone I told this too... .

Gaslighting... .  It sure is abuse... .and I'm sure she wants a reaction... .

It's quite evil... .I'm am sick of hearing this lie, over and over again... .

Time to switch off from what she is saying... .And her baiting... .

Are all BPD exs this awful? 

It probably seems hard to imagine right now, but at a certain point you might be able to see that gaslighting is something we allow others to do to us, more than something others do to us. If that makes sense. The reason it's so hard to explain to others what is happening is that for the most part, many of us do not go through life defining emotional health one way or another. Emotional illiteracy. Don't talk about your feelings, don't express them, don't ask for help, don't express weakness. So then, when there is a BPD spouse wreaking havoc, we have to overcome this tremendous ignorance about what it means to be emotionally healthy. BPD is about emotional dysregulation, and if you study the root causes, it will teach you what emotional health means. Profound lessons ahead, when you are ready to look it square in the eye.

Once you start piecing together what it means for you, many relationships will begin to change, starting with how you see yourself and how you treat yourself.  It's not for the weak, this work. But worthwhile, and life changing.

I know what you mean when you ask whether all BPDs are this awful. I'm at a point now (again, 4 years out, an eternity it feels when I look back to the trauma) where it is less about me = good, BPDx = awful, and more about the dynamic that made our relationship possible. What is in my control to change? What was it about me that this dynamic was possible? Would everyone react the same in my shoes? Sometimes I think of BPD as a boundary disorder. My ex crashed and trampled boundaries, and I had barely any boundaries to trample. I had to do lots of work on fear, obligation, guilt and learning to have boundaries, to be assertive.

You can change the family script you are working with. It will be painful, but you and your kids can reset to healthy. A legacy if ever there was one. 

[SES]

Livednlearned... .

Thanks... .Do you have any suggestions how to combat her allegations which she will probably throw up in court?   Esp... .that i have thoughts of killing myself and my kids?  She has spun that to family,  friends,  the police,  her lawyer already.   

[SES]

Livednlearned... .

I appreciate your wisdom... Four years on, must seem a lifetime... .I can't even see four days on... .let alone four weeks on.

She assaulted me last week, when she got arrested I took my kids away from it all.  I tried to get am emergency injunction,  but wasn't successful... .I ended up going back home for Christmas with the kids.  I left her with the kids on Christmas day... .She has tried to bait me in conversation,  at one point threatened to call the police... .Although it was me just assertively disagreeing with her Gaslighting... .Plus I record everything... .So have all the evidence the police would need.   She didn't call them... .She continues to want to talk.  I decline,  stating we should communicate via text... .She wanted to arrange our childcare... .But the last two days is refusing to plan or agree anything...

To avoid conflict I am staying in my room... .My kids are downstairs with her... .the kids come up and see me  now and then.   I feel trapped... .I don't want to go out as she will use that against me... .I don't want to go downstairs as it will lead to baiting,  cruelty etc.   I don't want to talk to her... .She is itching for a fight. 

I am really unsure what to do.   Any suggestions?    She accuses me of harassing her for asking  what our childcare arrangements will be. 

She is annoyed she got a police caution... .And is aware I have applied for an injunction.   And annoyed I took the kids away when she got arrested. 

I feel trapped... .Anyone with any suggestions?   thanks for any advice.

[SES]

Plus... .Just minor annoyance... .When I take a shower she uninstals my amazon movie account on my tv... .Two days in a row... .and I seem to have a lot less clothes recently... .

Torture, and nothing I can do about it... .

I know this will pass... .Impotence sure she has returned the divorce papers... .She is calling all the shots... .I'm not sure what to do

   

[livednlearned]

I know she seems all-powerful to you right now, and any time you are near someone who repeatedly assaults is dangerous. But her claims that you are going to kill yourself is not likely to go anywhere in court. Whereas your claims that she is a danger to you and herself are founded. The documentation that her behavior is seriously unstable can be documented, whereas her claims cannot.

Two things to keep in mind. One is that courts tends to think initially that high-conflict divorces or custody battles are the result of two troubled people. Your job is to document her behavior, and make good choices from now until your hearing so that she cannot back up any of her false allegations. You have to show the court that you are not troubled. In practical terms, that means you have to see her as a very troubled child, and regard everything she does as such. Her allegations are ridiculous, and you suggest a solution to deal with this behavior until you can restore some stability in your home. Maybe the solution is hospitalization, it's hard to say. If you have a good L, your L will be assertive and show that her behavior is a danger to her, to you, and to the kids. Your L will point out that her allegations are unfounded, and if anything, there is more concern that she will kill herself.

The second thing is that courts tend to care about the kids. The adult behavior, if it is severe, will matter. But only insofar as it affects the kids. So you need to make choices that show you understand that. If your ex is being abusive or negligent to the kids, don't hesitate to protect them. Your actions have to show that you will protect them from her at any moment. Otherwise, when the custody hearing takes place, you will both look like troubled parents and the judge will split things accordingly. You need to show that you are the responsible, steady, stable parent with good judgment.

There is a third thing -- it sounds like you are in a different country than the US. The process might be different, although the basic legal customs are probably similar. It's good to find out how things work where you live. But here, if neither side has a lot of documentation, judges will rule one way or another even if its based on sheer emotional reasoning. It's not like a criminal case. That's why it's so important to have as much documentation as possible. Your wife is going to lie, and have no documentation, and you need to demonstrate the opposite of what she says is true. You might do that through a deposition, or witness testimony, or video recording, or medical subpoenas of her records.

About your amazon movie account. Can you change the password? And when she goes out, maybe go to the hardware store and get a new doorknob with a lock and key. My ex began locking me out of the house regularly. I would go out to get something from my car and boom, he would lock me out. So I set up a storage locker that had an extra set of things I might need. I had spare keys outside, a separate purse, I even had a separate phone and credit card. I understand the head space you are in right now, and I'm sorry you're going through this  :'( but you have to find the strength and take extra measures to protect yourself right now until you are no longer living in the same house with her.

About the childcare arrangements. Assume that you are in charge, and that she is a child. Have a plan that covers childcare. It might mean hiring a babysitter to be available to get the kids, and then pay the babysitter anyway, even if your ex shows up. Or plan to get the kids 15 minutes later after daycare or school ends, and pay whomever is there the extra if your wife does not go pick them up. If she doesn't show, you will pick them up, etc.

You feel overwhelmed and beaten down and want life to run as though your wife is mentally stable. Unfortunately, yearning for normal will not make normal happen. You're going to go through a really challenging time for a period until this drama can be settled, and until then, you'll be working overtime -- mentally, emotionally, and physically. It will end, though. You're going to make it. From my perspective, which is only one person, you have more going for you than many people here. Her history and the degree of documentation you have is more than what most people are working with here. The key is to make sure you maintain strength and don't let her mental illness make you feel like the one who is crazy. 

[SES]

Thanks livednlearned... .

It sounds like you had a living hell at one point.   You are right... . I need to remember that she now has a criminal record for domestic violence.   And copies of texts, messages, and recordings of somethings. I'm probably in a stronger position as a result... . I'm not rising to her... .Although I started to yesterday... .I'm now saying only communicate via text message, rather than talk to her. She seems arrogant and cheerful... .Probably because I have become a hermit... . I'll try the courts again on Monday for emergency injunction... .I'll take legal advice about her demands, inability to negotiate our childcare fir next week and next few weeks, and also because she new says i can't take the kids away for new year.    

I have to dig deep...  I'll get another lock next week.  I have cash in the boot of my car, and places to stay if required.  A spare phone is a good idea.   I'll get one ASAP.

Lawyer suggested staying away until injunction hearing... .But as no guarantees I came home with kids... . Hindsight is great... .The            shot across the bows didn't steady things ashore... .just made them worse... .At least I can see that... .And can plan ahead... .Lawyer felt she was unlikely to slip up again... . But the injunction turned into a mess... .So had to plan based on a bad hand of cards.

What sort of things kept you strong?

Hopefully taking them away after her arrest shows I'll protect them... . I'm not sure how I can get her (the child)  to be reasonable regarding our childcare... .Although a letter from my  lawyer might help matters... .

You have been helpful... . There will a bright future... .

It is about rewriting my families history... . Breaking the cycle where my dad failed... .I can show my kids a different life... .and I'll give them stability... .One day they'll understand things better... .and will be able to decide what they want to do... .what path they want.    

[livednlearned]

What sort of things kept you strong?

Therapy. I didn't find this site until I was a year out of the house, but this place also gave me strength. My ex is a former trial attorney, and I was terrified he would crush me in court. Losing my son to him would've been devastating. So I was motivated to stay strong for my son, and my therapist helped me. Then here.

First T wasn't good at all. I ended up finding one who was action-oriented and that made a big difference. She gave me homework  and was so astute and perceptive, everything kept coming true that she predicted, so I began to trust her. And she recommended my L, who turned out to be great, plus the T my son eventually saw. I also let my boss and colleagues at work support me. They carried me through the day to day stuff, and while I did lose quite a few friends, the good ones who stayed became even closer. That was hard for me because I used to have this persona that I was the fixer rescuer, the strong one, never weak. I had to let that go and be vulnerable, and people responded with incredible warmth and kindness. I did become estranged from my dad and brother though. Once you start taking care of yourself, being assertive, setting boundaries, finding your voice, the more fragile people in your life will become nervous. They need you to stay weak, and that just isn't how it goes once you start paying attention to emotional health. And my custody battle went on for quite a while, and N/BPDx had a psychotic episode that nearly broke me. My son was there during regular visitation when N/BPDx lost his mind, and sent me over 100 IMs, emails, voicemails, text messages. He made threats leading me to think he was going to kill our son and then himself  :'(

But thinking about your question more deeply... .the thing that really anchored me through all this is the question I began to ask: what does it mean to raise an emotionally healthy child? You cannot answer that question when you yourself are not emotionally healthy, so I had to figure it out for myself in order to help guide S13. I read about validation and that was a game changer. At 9, my son was beginning to show signs of severe distress. He talked about not wanting to live, stabbed a kid in his class with a pencil, was crawling under his desk, and I was at a loss. When he talked about not wanting to live, I used to say, "I love you, people love you, you're a great kid." And I learned instead to validate his feelings, and say, "You must feel so sad to say that. Did something happen today that makes you sad?" And that simple change began the road to recovery for him. We still have challenges -- he's 13 after all -- but overall I started to parent my son in a healthy way, and that had an effect on parenting myself.

I never thought about it like that until you asked the question, so thank you. 

A couple of times I did really break down, and while that seems the opposite of "being strong" it actually was key. You do not always have to be strong, SES. Sometimes, sobbing for hours is what you need to do to create deep and true resilient strength. You sorta have to let go of what it means to be strong, and think more about what it means to be resilient. Your kids will learn from you.

[Panda39]

There will a bright future... .

It is about rewriting my families history... . Breaking the cycle where my dad failed... .I can show my kids a different life... .and I'll give them stability... .One day they'll understand things better... .and will be able to decide what they want to do... .what path they want.    

With everything going on I know it will be hard to keep the above in the front of your mind but it is very true.  You will discover strength you didn't know you had, you will discover what a great dad you are, you will discover incredible friends you have, you will discover your own power.

One day in the future you will create that healthy alternate universe for your kids and they will see where the dysfunction is and you will have the skills to help them cope with that.

I've watched my honey go through this.  He's just had a lovely 2 weeks with his kids and an awesome Christmas and now it's off to spend a week in a hotel room (evicted 3 times no one will rent to her) with their mom before she heads off to court for 2 felony charges against her for check fraud on Friday.  Who do you think those girls see as their parent? And where would they be without him? 

Always keep your kids in mind... .they may not even know it but they need you desperately.

[david]

I went to three or four therapist until I found one that fit for me.

Learning to listen and validate the kids was the best thing I ever did for our kids. I did it before she left but I got much better after. I no longer was worrying about what ex would do if I did such and such. I didn't even realize I was doing it until she left and I was still worrying. When I realized what I was doing I began to change back to the person I was before.

[SES]

Thanks David, Panda and livednlearned... .

She does feel all powerful... .Very powerful...  I feel a bit better, as i have resolved to return to court seeking an injunction armed with paperwork prepared by a domestic violence charity.     The paperwork came to me too late for the court hearing I had last week... .But I have managed to print them off in secret... .And feel inspired to try the courts again.

Livednlearned... . She has been quite difficult in arranging childcare... . there has been a sudden change... .Who knows why... .

Anyway... . I feel a little less powerless... .And keen for tomorrow to arrive... .A court order will help with boundaries... .I'm brushing my suit off... .Head shaved, beard trimmed... .Found a tie...  If I don't try, I'll never know... .

Another thing that has helped me is my insistence not to talk, but communicate via text... .Makes me feel more comfortable,  and little risk of baiting... .She's not happy... .But better for all concerned... .Including kids

Wish me luck!  

[livednlearned]

 

Taking small steps to take care of yourself is how it starts, and then you look up one day and realize you're whole again.

For people with BPD, feelings = facts. Imagine if every time you had a feeling, you arranged the facts to fit. You feel afraid, so then you have to find a fact to support it. Very opposite from how non-disordered people go through the world. That's why detaching and being bland helps, like doing things only by text. She cannot feed off your reactions and whip things into a frenzy when her supporting actor is not on the set.   

Don't confuse being bland with being passive, tho. Being bland is about managing your emotions, and being assertive is about taking actions to care for yourself and the kids.

She is not all powerful, SES. You may lose some friends in all this, and your kids will be hurt, and you may find yourself in court hearing outrageous lies, and that awful feeling when total strangers are sizing you up based on what amounts to BS. But she is not all powerful. It's the best feeling when you really see the disorder from a healthy perspective. You'll get there 

[Panda39]

Wishing you well with court.  You should be proud of yourself for taking a shot at it, I know how hard it is to do something like this when you are feeling overwhelmed but I think it is the right thing to do.

Keep us posted.

Sending you a good luck hug 

[ForeverDad]

The paperwork came to me too late for the court hearing I had last week... .But I have managed to print them off in secret... .And feel inspired to try the courts again.

Livednlearned... .  She has been quite difficult in arranging childcare... .  there has been a sudden change... .Who knows why... .

Anyway... .  I feel a little less powerless... .And keen for tomorrow to arrive... .A court order will help with boundaries... .

Any files, documents or computers she has access to - whether physically or electronically - consider them compromised until proven otherwise.  For example, even if you delete your browser history or log off, she may still be able to find your data or remnants of it.  Some have even found key loggers on their computers that saved or transmitted their every keystroke or file.

As additional examples of what some members have faced:

• The spouse ranted and raged, demanding the passwords or else



• A locked briefcase was busted open



• A locked trunk or boot couldn't withstand a tire iron



• A private office was searched when the spouse came in and told the staff, "I'm just waiting for my spouse."

From our FATQs list (Frequestly Asked Technical Questions) on our How Our Message Board Works pages:

Could I be found out?

[livednlearned]

I ended up hiring a forensic computer IT guy after my divorce. I had given my son an old smartphone that he carried with him to his dad's house, and then I started to notice that N/BPDx seemed to know things that he shouldn't. The forensic investigation found a large audio file that was transmitted at midnight. He said that fit the profile of surveillance software, although he thought it seemed odd that there was only one file sent and not one sent each night, which is how some of those programs work. They record everything that happens during the day, and then send a large file of everything recorded to a remote computer.  

In my state, if someone installs surveillance software on a phone that is not their own purchased with a cell plan under someone else's name, it's a felony. My sense is that N/BPDx installed the software, retrieved the data once, and then had second thoughts when he realized he was getting into sketchy territory. He would lose his law license, his job, and could no longer claim to be the victim if he got caught.

The surveillance software is not expensive and appears easy to install. I've seen software packages for $125, and that includes sending text messages and recordings not only of phone conversations, but conversations that take place within 15 feet of the phone, even when the phone is turned off. I think it can work when the battery is charged, that's all it needs.

But my ex was into surveillance even before we divorced, and I believed past behavior was an excellent predictor of future tactics. He had installed what used to be Google latitude on my phone, and could track me on his phone. He would text or call me, ask me where I was, and if there was a discrepancy, all hell would break loose. I didn't know about the tracking until I started to make plans to leave and ended up reading about cell phone tracking from a DV website. I started to leave my phone at home when I went to see my lawyer, and then used a cheap prepaid phone if I needed it while I was out.

Your wife may not be so motivated to get all up in your business like this, but it's good to take precautions. It helps to have some leverage and a strategy when you plan to leave, and you don't want her to know what you're up to in case she uses that information to leap frog over you or use it against you.

No need to be paranoid. Just be alert and pay attention to your instincts.

[SES]

Thanks for the good wishes,  and also the tips regarding security.    Everything is in secure ie... .The boot of my car, ready for loading into my locked work storage.

Well

Well... .An interesting day... . I now have an injunction preventing her,  or friends and family, from communicating with me about anything other than kids and house sale... . I represented myself... .Keeping costs to virtually nothing... .I asked for an order to get her to move out... .Will have a court hearing about that one in a couple of weeks... . I'll get a lawyer for that one.

She will have been served the paperwork this afternoon... .The only thing I did pay for... .

I have been avoiding going home... .Not too sure how it will go... .if I had planned it better, id have packed a bag and gone away for the night... .Fair to say... I didn't plan ahead.

Well... . I have started to draw a line in the sand.   my legal paperwork was drawn up by a women's domestic violence charity... .they have been really supportive... . I wore a suit, shaved my head, trimmed my beard... .Due to the excellent paperwork,  I didn't have to say or do too much.  

Well, I'll let you know the fall out.  Lawyer advised go home very late.   I'm hoping this helps us all... .Most importantly the kids... .   


I went and saw a friend... .  Now I am.having a rather long drive...    A very long drive...    Nice music though... .  Plus... .No texts or anything else from her all day. A first.

[david]

Make sure the batteries for the recorder are fully charged and you have spares that are fully charged too.

[SES]

Thanks David... .Another great top tip.   I have a spare recorder just in case.   

[ForeverDad]

Before my divorce was final I had accumulated 3 voice recorders.

[Sandman1881]

Plus... .No texts or anything else from her all day. A first.

I found that adjusting to the quiet, especially on the mobile/radio,  takes some getting use to.

After a while though, we see how normal is again.

So many of our troubles are ego driven... .

[SES]

Well, today has been 30 texts arranging our childcare for next week... .  Plus a couple of texts sent in 'error' to the wrong person "I still love him in a way.  I seriously considered going back to him"... .Not in a million years for me... .   

[maxen]

Well... .An interesting day... . I now have an injunction preventing her,  or friends and family, from communicating with me about anything other than kids and house sale... . I represented myself... .Keeping costs to virtually nothing... .I asked for an order to get her to move out... .Will have a court hearing about that one in a couple of weeks... . I'll get a lawyer for that one.

   

She will have been served the paperwork this afternoon... .The only thing I did pay for... .

a future perfect! a man after my own heart 

[SES]

Thanks Maxen... .

She has broken the injunction already!   She sent me text messages,  apparently in error, yesterday... .No surprises really... ."i still live him... I seriously considered going back to him"

She forbade me taking my kids away with me... .But lawyer and judge advised me to proceed anyway

... .

She made malicious allegations to the police that as a result of our relationship breakdown i will kill myself and my children.  

Well, my lawyer isn't a mental health professional, but she predicted that my wife's behaviour would escalate... .And she was right.   She has since predicted that my wife will continue until she is sat in front of a judge... .  I think she is right again.   I will make sure the court is aware she has breached the injunction... . By rights I could call the police... .But give her enough rope... . 

An old friend,  a psychiatrist,  describes her as unravelling... . And many colleagues feel she is malicious to the point of being quite risky/hazardous... .

The moments of the awful behaviour,  eg assault... She .has appeared facially different... . Perhaps dissociation?

She doesn't appear to have grasped the implications of her police record,  or the injunction... . Or the forthcoming court case about occupancy... . 

When she was in police custody she was offered an inpatient admission... . Although couldn't be forced to take it... .Suggests that she was unwell... .

After the assault she sent me a text saying she was suicidal... .

A roller-coaster... . Sad all round... .I have moments of feeling worried about her... .But she has done so much to me that is bad... .I just want to never speak to her again... .A bit of hatred for her has emerged... .Long overdue... .

...

[Panda39]

Well, my lawyer isn't a mental health professional, but she predicted that my wife's behaviour would escalate... .And she was right.   She has since predicted that my wife will continue until she is sat in front of a judge... .  I think she is right again.   I will make sure the court is aware she has breached the injunction... . By rights I could call the police... .But give her enough rope... . 

She doesn't appear to have grasped the implications of her police record,  or the injunction... . Or the forthcoming court case about occupancy... . 

... .A bit of hatred for her has emerged... .Long overdue... .

This type of thing was exactly what my SO's uBPDxw did too. At the beginning of their separation she had primary custody. 

She made accusations of child abuse then didn't even bother to show up at court... .out getting a manicure   Did she really think the court had time for this crap. She had warnings from the custody investigator about the cleanliness of her house and she did nothing... .investigator said her house was "disgusting" in court.  Pulled daughter out of school to do home on-line school against the advice of school counselors, school principal and wishes of her dad... .daughter lost her freshman year of high school 0.0 grade point average.  She was evicted and refused to give dad some clothes for the girls when they would be staying with him right in front of the police! (what a great mom  )

Give the rope she will use it... .document... .document... .document... .

Too dysregulated to even understand what their own actions are doing to their cause.  Because of her actions my SO has primary custody, medical decision making, dental decision making and education decision making.  When they separated he wanted 50/50 on everything and she handed everything to him on a silver platter because of her own actions.

Panda

PS Your emerging hatred is normal for you to feel just be sure to keep it under wraps... .any anger you show (even when justified) can be used against you.

[ForeverDad]

She has broken the injunction already!   She sent me text messages,  apparently in error, yesterday... .No surprises really... ."i still live him... I seriously considered going back to him"

Maybe she did it that way so she could claim it went to you in error.  Slick.  But I really suspect she did it on purpose, to engage you.

The moments of the awful behaviour,  eg assault... She .has appeared facially different... .  Perhaps dissociation?

I saw my ex morph right in front of me.  I had just come home, not sure who I would meet when I came in the door, calm spouse or ranting witch.  Well, she was calm, just had to tell me about her day, sat down on the couch, something she said reminded her of something else... .and right there in front of me I saw her face redden, morph, and she looked like a totally different person.  Other times she was finding fault with me, not this time, I was just a spectator.  Strange that that's the one time that stands out in my memory.

[livednlearned]

Borderline personality disorder is about severe fear of abandonment, so when abandonment actually happens, reactions can be extreme. Is she at a point where she should/could be involuntarily committed? I don't know how that process works, but the text message saying she was suicidal must surely mean something. Or, reading your post again, it sounds like the comment about committing suicide took place before the injunction was filed?

[SES]

Hi livednlearned... .

The suicidal text came the first day she assaulted me a couple offers ago.  She was offered admission later that week whilst in police custody, but she declined.   She was deemed fit to be interviewed by the police. 

Yes, the injunction probably won't hold her...   She broke the conditions on the second day...    Lawyer thinks she will react badly to it.  Just waiting to see what happens next.   

I'm away for a few days with our kids, and not heard from her at all. 

[maxen]

This is a very worthwhile thread but it has surpassed our limit for posts. Please feel free to begin a new thread for continuation.