Should I keep this coparent counselor? New updates

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So some of you know my situation. Will try to be brief. Been divorced from exH for a year. He's BPD and possibly bipolar - occasionally imagines things, but they sound logical when he says them. (He doesn't think aliens are chasing him - more 'emotional memories'. I was married to him for 5 years and walked on eggshells and it all came to a head one weekend when he told me I couldn't take my son out to the park, and all kinds of controlling things. I stood up to him, he got triggered, and he wouldn't let me feed the kids. Then he called his family and said I was hitting our son. (He later told me he believed this at the time.) He wanted to take him to ER for no reason, I said no, he called police, they saw he was in a nutty state and asked him if he wanted to retract the claim - he said, oh, it was an accident. but he still took our son to ER. The doctors saw he was fine and we went home. Then, exH raged at me until 5 a.m. and kept moving our kids (1 toddler, one baby) to different beds for like 5 hours in a row (they slept through it), put our baby on the edge of a couch to scare me, etc.  Then he put our sweet baby on the floor.  Who does stuff like that?  The next day I got a restraining order.  He did get therapy and tried to change, but the old person kept coming back so I reluctantly got divorced. I knew if I didn't do it then, I'd end up back in the same situation.  Even if therapy helps him, I see that he's always going to be doing and saying negative things and I'd always have to walk on eggshells.  He now has the kids once every other weekend for one night.  They are toddlers.

even apart, I have often been afraid of him and afraid to set boundaries.  When he gets 'triggered' (by a number of things - abandonment, a simple doctor's appointment for the kids, etc) it seems like he can't control his anger. He hasnt done anything physical but he yells a lot and has canceled the kids' appointments, etc. He does not put them first when triggered. He didn't want me to leave him but could not help that weekend when he raged for like 3 days straight. He also from time to time says he wants to get back together.  So I do get nervous about ratcheting up the situation.  Last year he crashed his car 5 minutes from our parent coordinator's office.  When he is stressed, he's STRESSEd. So I am very careful what I say to him because I don't want him to be unnecessarily triggered with the kids.

So anyway, we had a good parent coordinator after we got divorced. She saw his mental illness and he hated that. Her term (as specified in our decree) ended after 6 months. Around that time, she also talked to his therapist, who said he was off his meds. My lawyer and I did an order to get a new PC as a result. There's more to this, but to make a long story short, I didn't realize I was in a good bargaining position. Ex told me he'd only agree to a new PC if I said she can't talk to his docs or mention his medication.  I agreed in order to stay out of court because I stupidly thought a court would not order us a pc.  I thought maybe he'd calm down if we agreed to a new PC with these stipulations. So I agreed to a PC with weakened powers.

He still yells at me when picking up the kids at times, still does stuff that scares me. I've read worse cases, but I still get very nervous because when he's triggered, he's very tightly wound.  So I want the new PC to keep an eye on him in case he gets worse.

So we went and saw this new woman whose solutions, it seemed to me, put the burden on me to prove his lies, and just enable him. Example:  In December, I took our toddler to a doc's appointment because toddler was sick.  ExH kept calling and texting me for an hour after, saying the appointment was a waste. We went to our first PC session and he acknowledge the anger, but his claim was that the kids' doctor never calls him back and that's why he has these problems. The PC's solution is for us to make an appointment to see the doctor together and I have to tell her it's ok for her to call him back.  I told the PC that he makes his claim about all our professionals, but she still insisted I make this appointment.

Also, ex is supposed to provide letters 1x/year saying he's still in therapy. He claimed he did when he didn't. PC's solution is that I have to ask my attorney if she got the letters, forcing her to research to see if they're in the file (I haven't talked to my atty in 3-4 months.)  Meanwhile, ex could just provide the letters if the exist. Not sure why I have to be the one to prove a negative.

Finally, 12 hours after our PC session, ex sent our PC an email saying if she brings up his health, he will fire her. She responded that she doesn't intend to bring up his health matters.  This bothered me.  It does NOT say that in our consent order.  Seems like she just made him a promise that she shouldn't have made.

(Also note: exH and I both met PC separately before we met her together, so she knows all about his issues and problems.)

So today I talked to the kids' doctor about setting up this appointment to see her with my exH.  But doctor doesn't like that our PC suggested we make an appointment together.  What's it going to prove if he's mentally ill?  :)oc said she's fine doing it, but she is going to sit with her office manager and him and make him sign a letter saying he understands that it's his responsbility to follow up if someone doesn't get back to him.  She said she doesn't want to have to do this same meeting every 6 months.  She also wants to call the PC and talk sense to her.  I wonder if at this point I should just dump the PC.

I could solve these problems by going to court and picking a new PC to be appointed by the judge without these constraints.  My problem is, court takes months and meanwhile, my ex is taking the kids every other weekend and I fear for them while he's triggered.  People say I have to set boundaries and not be scared, but I'd never forgive myself if the situation got worse because I pushed it. And we already invested some time and money with this new PC.

Anyway, I wrote to the PC last week and told her that the consent order (I've said this 10x before) doesn't say she can't bring up his health issues and I politely asked why she would promise him not to bring them up.  My T suggested I give her a chance to explain.  Her response:

Dear [momtara],

Thank you for sharing your concerns with me. I will try to help you and [exH] as much as I can. I would like you to consider the following though:

As you are well aware of, court has not appointed me as your PC. Your consent order stipulates my role as to help you work together better. It specifically mentions that all my recommendations are non binding. Thus any results we hope to achieve will be accomplished only if we all work together and cooperate. Therefore, I can't by definition bring up the matters [---] will refuse to discuss. His personal mental health issues are not subject to our conversation as also stipulated in your consent order. This matter becomes very complicated as it is extremely difficult to separate his personal medical issues from those that might potentially affect the well-being of your children. Anything that directly relates to the well-being of the children is certainly within the realm of our conversations. For example, you need to establish that your attorney has indeed received a letter from [exH's]'s mental health professional and that that letter states unambiguously that exH is under constant care and adhering to the treatment regiments.  Should you find out that such letter was not provided, this issue can be discussed as it is a clear violation of your consent order.

I need to point it out to you though once again that we can only make progress if all parties are engaged and cooperate. Furthermore, If it becomes my understanding that [ex] might turn into a danger to yourself or the children, my only recourse would be to inform your local police department of my findings. Thus I would suggest that you discuss all your options with your attorney who unlike myself represents only you... Your respective attorneys will have an access to my notes from our meetings upon request.

As your PC I will continue working with you for as long as I am remain certain that I can be of help. But in order for this process to work properly both of you need to find an ability to work together with the goal of easing the pain of your divorce to your children.

I will be looking forward to your scheduling a next session  with me."

I have some concerns:

1.  She is still repeating that the consent order says she can't talk about his heatlh issues.  It doesn't say that.  Can I work with someone who just doesn't get it, or believes what my ex says?

2.  Let's say I keep working with her for a year.  (Our current consent order says we only work with her for a year.)  After that, I to think she'll recommend we keep working with her.  I'd only do that if we go to court before the term ends and remove the other stiuplations saying she can't discuss this or that.  But now I've got a year long precedent for working WITH those stipulations.  (I don't mind going to court once this agreement's up; the kids will be older and if she recommends it, then his anger will be directed toward her and not me.  But if I go to court now, he will be angry at me.  I'd do it if she recommended it, but she keeps not recommending it.)

Part of me wants to dump her.  I haven't signed the retainer agreement yet (only ex did).  But then I have to get someone appointed thru court.  In the meantime, there's no one to help us if we have a problem that needs some mediation/discussion, and also in the meantime, ex is going to be all triggery.

And then we gotta start all over again (And I pay for all of this because ex brings home like 2400 a month and pays 1000 in child support so I volunteer to pay for all the pc).

I know I'm tiptoeing a lot.  I wonder this:  Should I try to stick with this PC?  Is there another solution besides court?

I started writing her an email asking her to show me where it says she can't discuss his health issues. I just want her to realize that's not in there (only says can't discuss medication, and I've pointed this out like 3 times).

I know this is all scattered and there's more backstory I'm not saying.  Just wondering if I should persist with this PC especially if the doc sets her straight, etc., or am I just tiptoeing longer and will cause myself problems later when I want to appoint someone (or her) without the stipulations.  Anyone see ideas I'm not thinking of? 

[momtara]

So some of you know my situation. Will try to be brief. Been divorced from exH for a year. He's BPD and possibly bipolar - occasionally imagines things, but they sound logical when he says them. (He doesn't think aliens are chasing him - more 'emotional memories'. I was married to him for 5 years and walked on eggshells and it all came to a head one weekend when he told me I couldn't take my son out to the park, and all kinds of controlling things. I stood up to him, he got triggered, and he wouldn't let me feed the kids. Then he called his family and said I was hitting our son. (He later told me he believed this at the time.) He wanted to take him to ER for no reason, I said no, he called police, they saw he was in a nutty state and asked him if he wanted to retract the claim - he said, oh, it was an accident. but he still took our son to ER. The doctors saw he was fine and we went home. Then, exH raged at me until 5 a.m. and kept moving our kids (1 toddler, one baby) to different beds for like 5 hours in a row (they slept through it), put our baby on the edge of a couch to scare me, etc.  Then he put our sweet baby on the floor.  Who does stuff like that?  The next day I got a restraining order.  He did get therapy and tried to change, but the old person kept coming back so I reluctantly got divorced. I knew if I didn't do it then, I'd end up back in the same situation.  Even if therapy helps him, I see that he's always going to be doing and saying negative things and I'd always have to walk on eggshells.  He now has the kids once every other weekend for one night.  They are toddlers.

even apart, I have often been afraid of him and afraid to set boundaries.  When he gets 'triggered' (by a number of things - abandonment, a simple doctor's appointment for the kids, etc) it seems like he can't control his anger. He hasnt done anything physical but he yells a lot and has canceled the kids' appointments, etc. He does not put them first when triggered. He didn't want me to leave him but could not help that weekend when he raged for like 3 days straight. He also from time to time says he wants to get back together.  So I do get nervous about ratcheting up the situation.  Last year he crashed his car 5 minutes from our parent coordinator's office.  When he is stressed, he's STRESSEd. So I am very careful what I say to him because I don't want him to be unnecessarily triggered with the kids.

So anyway, we had a good parent coordinator after we got divorced. She saw his mental illness and he hated that. Her term (as specified in our decree) ended after 6 months. Around that time, she also talked to his therapist, who said he was off his meds. My lawyer and I did an order to get a new PC as a result. There's more to this, but to make a long story short, I didn't realize I was in a good bargaining position. Ex told me he'd only agree to a new PC if I said she can't talk to his docs or mention his medication.  I agreed in order to stay out of court because I stupidly thought a court would not order us a pc.  I thought maybe he'd calm down if we agreed to a new PC with these stipulations. So I agreed to a PC with weakened powers.

He still yells at me when picking up the kids at times, still does stuff that scares me. I've read worse cases, but I still get very nervous because when he's triggered, he's very tightly wound.  So I want the new PC to keep an eye on him in case he gets worse.

So we went and saw this new woman whose solutions, it seemed to me, put the burden on me to prove his lies, and just enable him. Example:  In December, I took our toddler to a doc's appointment because toddler was sick.  ExH kept calling and texting me for an hour after, saying the appointment was a waste. We went to our first PC session and he acknowledge the anger, but his claim was that the kids' doctor never calls him back and that's why he has these problems. The PC's solution is for us to make an appointment to see the doctor together and I have to tell her it's ok for her to call him back.  I told the PC that he makes his claim about all our professionals, but she still insisted I make this appointment.

Also, ex is supposed to provide letters 1x/year saying he's still in therapy. He claimed he did when he didn't. PC's solution is that I have to ask my attorney if she got the letters, forcing her to research to see if they're in the file (I haven't talked to my atty in 3-4 months.)  Meanwhile, ex could just provide the letters if the exist. Not sure why I have to be the one to prove a negative.

Finally, 12 hours after our PC session, ex sent our PC an email saying if she brings up his health, he will fire her. She responded that she doesn't intend to bring up his health matters.  This bothered me.  It does NOT say that in our consent order.  Seems like she just made him a promise that she shouldn't have made.

(Also note: exH and I both met PC separately before we met her together, so she knows all about his issues and problems.)

So today I talked to the kids' doctor about setting up this appointment to see her with my exH.  But doctor doesn't like that our PC suggested we make an appointment together.  What's it going to prove if he's mentally ill?  :)oc said she's fine doing it, but she is going to sit with her office manager and him and make him sign a letter saying he understands that it's his responsbility to follow up if someone doesn't get back to him.  She said she doesn't want to have to do this same meeting every 6 months.  She also wants to call the PC and talk sense to her.  I wonder if at this point I should just dump the PC.

I could solve these problems by going to court and picking a new PC to be appointed by the judge without these constraints.  My problem is, court takes months and meanwhile, my ex is taking the kids every other weekend and I fear for them while he's triggered.  People say I have to set boundaries and not be scared, but I'd never forgive myself if the situation got worse because I pushed it. And we already invested some time and money with this new PC.

Anyway, I wrote to the PC last week and told her that the consent order (I've said this 10x before) doesn't say she can't bring up his health issues and I politely asked why she would promise him not to bring them up.  My T suggested I give her a chance to explain.  Her response:

Dear [momtara],

Thank you for sharing your concerns with me. I will try to help you and [exH] as much as I can. I would like you to consider the following though:

As you are well aware of, court has not appointed me as your PC. Your consent order stipulates my role as to help you work together better. It specifically mentions that all my recommendations are non binding. Thus any results we hope to achieve will be accomplished only if we all work together and cooperate. Therefore, I can't by definition bring up the matters [---] will refuse to discuss. His personal mental health issues are not subject to our conversation as also stipulated in your consent order. This matter becomes very complicated as it is extremely difficult to separate his personal medical issues from those that might potentially affect the well-being of your children. Anything that directly relates to the well-being of the children is certainly within the realm of our conversations. For example, you need to establish that your attorney has indeed received a letter from [exH's]'s mental health professional and that that letter states unambiguously that exH is under constant care and adhering to the treatment regiments.  Should you find out that such letter was not provided, this issue can be discussed as it is a clear violation of your consent order.

I need to point it out to you though once again that we can only make progress if all parties are engaged and cooperate. Furthermore, If it becomes my understanding that [ex] might turn into a danger to yourself or the children, my only recourse would be to inform your local police department of my findings. Thus I would suggest that you discuss all your options with your attorney who unlike myself represents only you... Your respective attorneys will have an access to my notes from our meetings upon request.

As your PC I will continue working with you for as long as I am remain certain that I can be of help. But in order for this process to work properly both of you need to find an ability to work together with the goal of easing the pain of your divorce to your children.

I will be looking forward to your scheduling a next session  with me."

I have some concerns:

1.  She is still repeating that the consent order says she can't talk about his heatlh issues.  It doesn't say that.  Can I work with someone who just doesn't get it, or believes what my ex says?

2.  Let's say I keep working with her for a year.  (Our current consent order says we only work with her for a year.)  After that, I to think she'll recommend we keep working with her.  I'd only do that if we go to court before the term ends and remove the other stiuplations saying she can't discuss this or that.  But now I've got a year long precedent for working WITH those stipulations.  (I don't mind going to court once this agreement's up; the kids will be older and if she recommends it, then his anger will be directed toward her and not me.  But if I go to court now, he will be angry at me.  I'd do it if she recommended it, but she keeps not recommending it.)

Part of me wants to dump her.  I haven't signed the retainer agreement yet (only ex did).  But then I have to get someone appointed thru court.  In the meantime, there's no one to help us if we have a problem that needs some mediation/discussion, and also in the meantime, ex is going to be all triggery.

And then we gotta start all over again (And I pay for all of this because ex brings home like 2400 a month and pays 1000 in child support so I volunteer to pay for all the pc).

I know I'm tiptoeing a lot.  I wonder this:  Should I try to stick with this PC?  Is there another solution besides court?

I started writing her an email asking her to show me where it says she can't discuss his health issues. I just want her to realize that's not in there (only says can't discuss medication, and I've pointed this out like 3 times).

I know this is all scattered and there's more backstory I'm not saying.  Just wondering if I should persist with this PC especially if the doc sets her straight, etc., or am I just tiptoeing longer and will cause myself problems later when I want to appoint someone (or her) without the stipulations.  Anyone see ideas I'm not thinking of? 

[momtara]

PS to clarify:

-Our order says our PC can't ask about his medication.  It does NOT say she can't ask if he's seeing his docs, getting the right help, etc.  I brought up something to that effect last time and then he got pissed off.  So it bothers me that she'd just cater to him if he says, you can't bring up my health issues.

-I would be less afraid next year to get a new pc because our agreement will have ended and I can start working on that before it ends.  But if we've been with this woman a year, a judge may be reluctant to switch or to give her back the powers I allowed to be taken away.

[livednlearned]

I think she is saying to you that her sole service is to focus on areas of cooperation. That means if your ex asks for something, she will turn to you and ask if that's ok. If you say it's not ok, then there can be no cooperation. She can do nothing. Many times, it seems that you say yes. You will cooperate. You're afraid that if you say no, something bad will happen that will trigger your ex. Or maybe you're worried the PC will think you're the problem. If your ex says he will not agree to something, she consents to that because he is saying he cannot cooperate.

Does that make sense? She is not enforcing the hard edges of the consent order, and she is not acting like a judge. She is not representing you. She is focused entirely on areas of cooperation. You keep cooperating. Your ex does not.

Are you expecting her to enforce what you find difficult to do yourself? Maybe you need to have that conversation with her, so expectations are clear.

What is difficult here is that your ex has set ideas about what is/is not acceptable. He does not bend. You have ideas about what is/is not acceptable, but you bend. So given how your PC is approaching your case, you'll be the one accommodating most of the requests to cooperate. Which you already do.

[momtara]

Thanks.  It's hard for me to always know how to interpret those things.

"Are you expecting her to enforce what you find difficult to do yourself? Maybe you need to have that conversation with her, so expectations are clear."

Well, yes, in some ways.  If something comes from her, he is going to listen better than if it comes from me.  And not blame me as much or need to get back at me, which is a fear of mine (that he uses the kids to get back at me).  I need her to be aggressive enough to cut through some of the crap.  If he lies, and it's an obvious lie, then why let it stand?  Especially if I have documentation?

I also don't believe her job is only to get us to work together.  If she sees he is going off the rails, then I don't think waiting until it gets to the level of notifying the police is a good standard.  If he makes a threat, I would get a restraining order.  I would like her to notice if he's getting worse.  Then she could say to him that his therapists should call her.  If he says no, then I can take that recommendation to court.  Then it's sort of more pressing that he does what she asks.

Most of what she said is ok with me.  What is not ok is that she keeps claiming the consent order says something it does not.  It doesn't bode well for the future. 

So that brings me back to my question.  Should I bail out, or try to stick it out with her?  Just because he won't cooperate, doesn't mean I have to jump through hoops all the time.  There are other ways to address the situation.  If he makes a claim, he should PROVE it.  Not me.

My options seem three:

-Stick with her and try to keep giving her info when needed.  The longer I stay with her, the longer I'm stuck with her.

-Go to court and have them appoint someone without all the restrictions, even if that takes a while.

-Convince ex to dump her and look for someone new with me. I think I can do that, but it may mean more of the same, and still will at least take a few weeks.

LnL, does she seem out of line?  I have trouble evaluating whether she's bad, weak, or I'm just expecting too much.

[livednlearned]

In her note to you, it says this:

His personal mental health issues are not subject to our conversation as also stipulated in your consent order.

Why not clarify this with her by asking her to please quote from the consent order where it says that? Recently, your believed your ex was wrong about something in the consent order, and then you checked and it turned out he was right. Not that this is happening now, but maybe if you can figure out why you and the PC are not on the same page about this, it will help you understand why something that is a fact is being treated like it isn't.

Also, she may be asking for your L to produce the letter about H taking his meds because she is trying to establish trust/cooperation with your ex, and she knows that if she presses him for the letter, it will likely not appear, which doesn't help you. Your L is much more likely to comply. You could just ask your PC directly why she is asking you to produce the letter (which costs money) instead of asking ex (free). And see what her reasoning is.

[momtara]

yes, I am going to ask her why she believes that, and to quote from that part. i'm going to ask if maybe she has a rough draft my ex gave her - kind of give her an out.

i did ask why the burden is on me to prove that. her response was in her email above. "Should you find out that such letter was not provided, this issue can be discussed as it is a clear violation of your consent order."

i guess you are right, that maybe she has her reasons for asking. 

i haven't even paid her for the last session, and she's engaged in all this correspondence she hasn't been paid for yet, so i can't keep emailing her again and again, but i do want clarification. 

[david]

I would ask for clarification. I just posted my last co parent counseling meeting today. What I have learned at this and the last meeting is what lnl has said. The counselor we have is looking for cooperation. Anything that shows no signs of cooperation he moves away from. I have gone back to things I find important and state my views as to why it is important. In fact, today ex said something that was an out right lie or delusion. When the counselor said to move on I said no because I didn't understand how someone that was delusional could co parent. He had no answer but moved on. I looked right at ex and told her that if she thought she was correct in what she said then she should get the email that she said she had and provide it at the next meeting. If she did that I would apologize.

What I am noticing is that I am accomplishing things that I have been trying to accomplish from ex for years and only now is she agreeing or at least following through. I am coming to the conclusion that I only trigger ex and anything I say has to be met with resistance. It's in ex's nature and that is just the way it is. However, with a "neutral" party present ex is following along whenever the counselor says he thinks my suggestion is reasonable. He doesn't trigger her and ex looks at him as an authority. I don't know how long this will last and how effective this will be since we haven't really gotten any substantial topics addressed.

He has said many times that there is a lot of distrust from both sides. I think he is slowly trying to get us to lower our guards. The problem is I haven't hid anything in the meetings and have been open and honest. I have been calling ex out on her delusions/distortions/flat out lies and this is something I haven't done in years. This has thrown ex off her game. What I have noticed is when I call her on her delusions/etc she goes back to some past event that can't be proven one way or the other. All those events are over four years old. She has nothing new since I started recording everything. The counselor changes direction as soon as she starts that so he is keeping the focus on the present.

I think the big difference for me is I feel safe because I have a recorder with me when I leave the meeting and ex knows that. She has never approached me after any of the meetings and keeps her distance.

I honestly don't see this making any substantial progress because ex has issues that keep her from going into her defense mode of projection, accusations, and flat of lies. I am required by court order and it is not costing me a lot of money at this point so I am going along for the ride. I get the sense that ex "enjoys" this because it is more engagement from me then she has had in 5 plus years. Our youngest is 11 so, at the most, I have to do this for 7 more years. I don't think it will last that long.

[david]

Another thing I am noticing. Ex keeps saying she has boundaries and she stick with them. In reality, I am the one with boundaries. I haven't seen any boundaries from ex in these meetings. It is clear cut projection on her part. She is simply reading me and projecting it as if it is her. There have been a few times where she actually said what the boundary was and I immediately agreed with her because that is my boundary. When I have done this I looked at her and have noticed she has no idea what to do next. How can she argue with me when I am agreeing. It throws her off.

[momtara]

Hmmmm.  David, I guess you have a point.  But do you think it's good, the way your PC is?  Do you think it's helping matters?

Mine will surely be useful if ex and I spar on a health issue for the kids or something like that.  But I don't like the idea that she ignores what's right in the consent order.  I will ask her to clarify.

I guess our first PC spoiled me.  I went into a session with her and was pretty quiet and let ex talk.  By the second visit, she told me she could tell he was very mentally ill and she deals with a lot of mentally ill people as a PC.  She was also a psychologist and was always looking to make sure he's not getting worse, and had contacted his doctors.

She used to cut through his lies and do the right thing, so I took her for granted.

This new one is a social worker, mediator, and PC.  She understands the difference in the roles, but she's just not aggressive.

I was talking to my T and he vacillated between telling me to dump her (if I know of a better one) or sticking with her a little longer.  I just don't want to set a precedent and get stuck with her for good.  And again, this thing with her ignoring the court order and believing my ex's lies about it bothers me.

I'd love to fix some of this stuff in court, but the fact that the process takes months and will rachet up ex's fears and trigger-ness bothers me.  If I can accomplish it another way, I will.  But then I get that supressing feeling like I'm walking on eggshells again.  Maybe there are reasons to do it sometimes.  I dunno.

[david]

I think our counselor is helping to some degree. However, I do not believe in any way that he will help ex to see the light. I view my ex in a very fragile state because of all her distortions of the truth she needs to be not painted black in her mind. The inconsistencies she exhibits convince me that this is not the venue for her to get well and she will not magically "get it". She has lived this way for over 40 years and in order for her to "get well" would take a serious awakening in her.

Our counselor is court ordered and really doesn't cost me much. He is better than nothing since there have been a few minor things that have been dealt with. S11's eczema is the most serious thing that has been addressed and it took the counselor and me repeating over and over what the dermatologist said in December. I can't accomplish anything with ex unless I have an authority (in ex's mind) that supports my thoughts or opinions. I need to take myself out of the parenting equation and use the "experts" to sway ex.

Ex actually said in this last meeting that we have been divorced as long as we have been married now. That is an exaggeration as that will take place in a few more years. However, she said that I continue to argue and fight with her after all this time. It was classic projection on her part since she was the one arguing and attacking me when she said it. I would have liked if the counselor challenged her on that but I don't think he will because that would have him pick a side which would make him painted black too.

[livednlearned]

How can she argue with me when I am agreeing. It throws her off.

momtara, your PC is trying to minimize conflict. She is going to take the path of least conflict in every matter that comes up. In some ways, she's like you. 

You want her to have a strong approach like the first PC, but this one does not. Your ex is going to like PCs that are not as forthcoming as the first PC.

It's the same dilemma you face in dealing with your ex. Strong, assertive approach -- your ex is not going to like it. But then you don't get accomplished what you want.

If you stick with the current PC, which could go either way, I think you'll end up getting frustrated that she is not as forthright as you want. So you will need to be the one who enforces boundaries.

[david]

Also, enforcing the boundaries with the pc present may be advantageous. My ex does not challenge me or have rages in front of others so I am taking what the counselor an ex is giving me. If ex does rage then she will be exposing herself and that will change the dynamics.

[momtara]

All good points.

One of my fears is that these PC's and custody evaluators seem to have almost God complexes, so I don't want to get on her bad side, considering she can testify in court some day.  But in order to point out something incorrect, I'm questioning her judgment (even if I'm diplomatic).  I don't want her believing lies.

D'you folks think that after a year, if I go to court and ask for a PC to be appointed (or reappoint the same one) without all the constraints and limitations, it'd look bad that I let things go for a year with these constraints?

[livednlearned]

All good points.

One of my fears is that these PC's and custody evaluators seem to have almost God complexes, so I don't want to get on her bad side, considering she can testify in court some day.  But in order to point out something incorrect, I'm questioning her judgment (even if I'm diplomatic).  I don't want her believing lies.

D'you folks think that after a year, if I go to court and ask for a PC to be appointed (or reappoint the same one) without all the constraints and limitations, it'd look bad that I let things go for a year with these constraints?

How does it work where you live? What conditions are necessary for the court to appoint a PC, and how is a court-appointed PC different than a judge?

Also, it seems like you're having a hard time making a decision about the current PC.

[momtara]

Yes, I am having a hard time making a decision.  She seems to want to help.  She has experience.  Yet, it bothers me that she agreed with my ex that she can't talk about ex's health problems even though it doesn't say that in the agreement.  And I don't trust her as far as what she might testify in a court.  

But it seems like most lawyers, pc's, custody evaluators screw up sometimes - frustrating, but true, as they don't know our case the way we do.  I don't know that another one would be better or worse.  And the thought of bringing this all back into lawyer and judges scares me because that could be months when ex is triggered waiting for this, with letters back and forth.  Not good for my mental health either - very nerve wracking.

So I am stymied.  She finally sent her bill today - $500 for the appointment (1.75 hours), subsequent emails.  She also sent her contract, which I haven't signed yet.  Ex has signed it.

If she hadn't promised him not to talk about his health issues, I might still trust her.  However, that only means I could spend more money on her and then he just fires her next session, or tries to.  And I don't think she's that great anyway.

I am going to follow the advice of asking her where in the document it says we can't discuss health issues.  I will ask if she has an earlier version of the consent order.  That will give her an easy out if she misread it or whatever.

I shared my dilemma with my T.  He said she doesn't sound that great.  Of course ex's health issues may be an issue.  But if I want to stay out of court, he thought I could try a little longer.  I just don't know.   I don't want to be with this person for a year and regret it, but nor do I want to make things worse instead of better by throwing this back into court and having my ex angry for months etc etc.

To answer LnL's last question, apparently judges will order a PC pretty easily in a high conflict situation.  I think I could win that.  A PC would help us by being there to monitor the situation; don't want to go to court or have no one to turn to for advice on his mental health issues.

[david]

Before signing anything would it be a good idea to go to another meeting and "discuss" this with ex. Explain why you think it is important and it is a boundary for you because it is so important. The counselor will see your conviction and ex may have to decide about something he wants to hide. Try explaining it in a non confrontational way if possible. I hope this makes sense.

I think this is a good negotiation strategy.

[momtara]

That's a clever idea.  That's why I come here... .maybe people can see things I can't see.  Of course, it means spending more time and money on this person who I'm not sure about, but it is certainly one strategy to consider!  Never thought of that... .

[GaGrl]

Yes, I think putting it out there would be good.

"I'd like to start today by clarifying what I need to know before I sign this contract.  My copy of the order indicates that the PC can ask about Ex's medical condition.  Yet you indicate you can not.  Since the types of situations we need to discuss and work on in these sessions is very tied to Ex's medical condition, I am concerned about signing if we can't discuss everything relevant to resolving the situation on the table."

[momtara]

Thanks, Gagrl.  Very well put!  Sometimes it's hard to figure out how to put something like that into words.

One thing I worry about is, even if she finally says to me, OK, you're right, if we need to, we can talk about his health, sounds like she is just not on board with doing so anyway.

Are most PC's not supposed to touch on this?  I thought it was part of the whole ball of wax, that if someone had severe mental health issues, that could be broached, not just kid decisions.  Most PC's seem fine with this.

I remembered something else that didn't impress me about our visit. It's my younger child's turn to have her 6-month well visit next month. My ex wants me to, in front of him, remind the doc that he has equal access to our kids' info.  Our PC suggested we make the visit a month early so that we can do that at the same time. I told her my insurance doesn't allow me to make a visit before they're due.  She was shocked by this.  I was, in turn, shocked that she'd be shocked. Of course kids' well-visits shouldn't be made whenever you feel like it! The point is to measure their progress.  I dunno, maybe she's not in tune enough with kid stuff.  She did impress me when I interviewed her prelminarily before, so it's disappointing that she seems less on the ball now, unless it's just her way.

Well, sending her yet another email tonight to clarify.

[GaGrl]

If you are emailing to clarify the discussions about ex's mental health, send a copy of your court order with the relevant section clearly marked and quote it in your email. Maybe you can go ahead and tell her that his behavior at exchanges is a topic you need to work on, and it's directly tied to his mental health and treatment.

[livednlearned]

My ex wants me to, in front of him, remind the doc that he has equal access to our kids' info. 

This is really weird, and controlling. My PC would've told N/BPDx that he can contact the doctors office. She always put the responsibility back on him, which was appropriate. Your PC is putting the responsibility on you. I think this is because she is focusing on cooperation above all else, and that just doesn't work in our situations. You need a PC who deals with bullying.

She seems more like a coparenting counselor than a PC.

[GaGrl]

That's it!  Ex is a bully.

momtara, that gives you a context into which you can put so many of his behaviors.  It's also a way of helping you determine and draw boundaries.

You are spending far too much of your time -- and your life -- being TOLD you need to do something for him.  Or else, or else... .or else, what?  He ratchets up the pressure with repeated phone calls and texts, and in-person with repeated questions and the raised voice.

[momtara]

I met with her individually for quite a while before our meeting together, and made it clear what was going on with him.  From the last two comments, it seems like she's kind of a waste.  That's what I felt to begin with, that I shouldn't have to keep jumping through hoops to prove a negative.  It only makes it worse. 

Setting up another appointment with her just postpones the inevitable, unless there really is a chance she'll get it.  My T pointed out that at least she's asking for my ex to provide the letters about his therapy.

The tricky thing is how to get a new PC when I got my ex to agree to this one.  I could have my lawyer write his lawyer, I could ask him if he'd like to try another, I could try to manipulate him into dumping this one with me, or go to a new session and see if he threatens to fire her (which is a possibility), or take it all to court.  This one is our second and I don't want to keep switching, but by staying with this one longer, I waste more money.

[GaGrl]

Well, he didn't like the first, you don't like this one. Big deal... .you get to say "No." And you don't owe anyone a explanation.

As my friend said (and I quote often), "I was 40 years old before I realized that 'No' is a complete sentence."

[momtara]

Ha - but then I'm put in a situation where he might reject the next one, and now I can't say he keeps rejected them.  He threatened this one w/termination, so may emphasize that.

[livednlearned]

Why not have a frank talk with the PC. "Look, you need to be able to talk to him about his medical stuff. It's a big deal. If you can't do that, then I'm not sure what's to be gained here. I already bend over backwards to try and accommodate him. I don't need help with that."

If she says no to discussing the medical stuff, then toss her. If she says "Ok, I'll try." Then see how it goes for one session. If your ex doesn't like talking about his medical problems, and he refuses to see her because she crossed that line, then you toss her.

Do all of this before you hand over the whole retainer.

Meanwhile, keep looking for someone else so you have momentum if/when your ex dumps the current PC.

[david]

Can you get the pc you had before ?

[momtara]

Livedandlearned, thanks, good plan.  David, one never knows. Ex claimed he filed a complaint against her, so not sure she'd be willing. And ex would probably fight it... .but ... .it's a possibility.

[ForeverDad]

Seems the problem is finding an adequate PC.  If the first PC won't serve, can you ask the PC who else would be capable of handling/countering the maneuvers?

[david]

"Ex claimed he filed a complaint against her"

My ex makes lots of claims that are not true. I never believe anything my ex says unless I have proof from another source I trust.

Call the first pc and find out the truth and if it is true ask her who she would use like FD suggested.

Remember you don't have to sign anything you don't agree with or are not sure about. Telling the current pc you are not sure/uncomfortable with what is going on is perfectly acceptable. It's the way you handle it that counts. If your ex takes you to court over this pc then simply let the judge know what the counselor said and what his order says. You are following the order. I don't think the judge would disagree with himself.