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Author Topic: At what point does it become an "obsessive" chess game of point/counter point?  (Read 402 times)
jammo1989
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« on: March 17, 2015, 12:50:03 PM »

I'm going to use my own personal experience and knowledge of what I personally feel happened and why, I am also going to be as open as I possibly can regarding everything that hooked me in what led to an addiction throughout, this may be quite lengthy so bear with me

To what point do you start to let all the manipulation, the lies and the BPD's/HPD's Bag of Tricks pull you in to the point that it becomes an "obsessive" chess game of point/counter point?

Manipulation was always formed through the use of sexual advances and seduction, this is a very common trait with HPD woman, because it all stems back to that need for attention, and because the majority of HPDs are above average looking they have learned that sex and flirtatious behavior is the easiest way to gain attention.  I will give you some examples of how she did this:

Im on Skype with my friends, she Face times me, I pick up and I say, im bust right now ill call you back in 5 k? next thing i know shes stripping off and starts pleasuring herself while moaning into the camera, I then say gotta go boys ill talk to you later, I then do the same as her, as soon as we finish she blows me a kiss and says im going now love you and winks at me.  

Im playing Xbox on head set with my mates late at night, my ex is in bed half asleep, she gets out of bed naked and straddles me while im playing, I say hang on I wont be long, she thinks "Hes not listening to me" she gets frustrated so she steps up the manipulation, she unzips my trousers and pleasures me, while this is happening she keeps her eyes solely focused on me, she can see the manipulation is working, and because I was uneducated back then I say bye to my mates and we carry on.

Why did she do this?

Shes plays the role of an actress (all eyes on her) she needed me to shift my attention from what I was doing onto her, and as soon as she was satisfied that I had dropped what I was doing for her her addiction (Attention) was fixed during that period of time.  

She was like my own personal porn star, she unlocked so many weird fetishes that I didn't even think I was capable of enjoying, this is the addiction, She would treat me like Christian Grey (50 Shades of Grey) I could tell her to do anything and she would do it, she would send me pictures and videos when ever I asked for them, she almost turned me into some kind of Narcissist because she always played into the role play scenario, my tone of voice and who I was changed towards her because I knew she loved it for example this is how I would talk to her in the bedroom or if she had done something to anger me.

":)o you think that was appropriate young lady? If you do that again you will be punished (sexually) do you understand?"  her reply was always "yes master"

In the bedroom with a bit of light BDSM is healthy but this was all the time, and to a Non its patronizing but with this woman she fed of my authority, and would do anything sexually for in order to keep the attention on her.  I will also share some very insightful information regarding sex with a HPD and it was actually written by a HPD sufferer over on Psych Forums, she said that, when a HPD/BPD has sex with you, their not having sex with you they are having sex at you, they are merely playing the role of an actress and the goal from sex isnt to gain intimacy or a connection it is solely used as a tool to manipulate the man and the reward isn't her orgasm but the fact all the attention is on her,this is the sole reason why a lot of men brag and say my ex gf was so filthy.  They do what you want because they know that if they give you that luxury you will not only become addicted but you will also focus solely on what shes doing for you.  There were many times where my ex would unzip my trousers in a restaurant under the table, and it seemed to only happen while I was texting, yet again its that excessive, desperate need for constant attention.  Now im going to talk about the manipulation methods that she used.

Push / pull: you already know what this is, but HPDs the seductive type play it a bit differently, My ex push/pulled after she dumped me, she would text me saying hey, i would then reply and I wouldn't get a text for another 6 days, I would then get a I love you baby! this went on for about 2 weeks, and at this point I thought, I dont know what game shes playing but Im going to play it to, she texts me, I dont reply 6 hours go by she sends me another text "why are you ignoring me" the day after I get a random picture message of her naked showing her bum, she then texts saying "Sorry about that, just wanted to show you my tan" I text back straightaway saying ":0! nice bum xx" she then replies with oh my god your such a perv (angry face).  Now you can see that If one thing isnt working for the attention she craves she will step it up again till she gets her fix.

So to finally answer your question, there is no question in my mind that us men always think about sex and when we are faced with pornographic imagery or promises we are at our weakest, there were times when my Ex was my mistress and she told me what to do, this was heaven for my ex HPD because she had full control of me I dropped my masculinity in order to relive myself.  You must understand that these types of woman arent interested in you they are interested in the attention and control they an have over you.  When you watch an action movie and the woman seduces a man, gets him into bed, then pulls a gun out on him while shes on top and demands money or inside information although fictional that is a HPD mind set.  We as men get addicted to the seductive nature and sadly we think with our penises instead of our brains and thats when the addiction in the form of manipulation begins.  

Sorry for such a long post , as I havent been this open before on the forum, I really hope you can relate and make sense to everything that Ive been saying, If you have anymore questions just ask.              

 

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Skip
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2015, 01:22:54 PM »

there is no question in my mind that us men always think about sex and when we are faced with pornographic imagery or promises we are at our weakest, there were times when my Ex was my mistress and she told me what to do, this was heaven for my ex HPD because she had full control of me I dropped my masculinity in order to relive myself.  

It's a really good question. At what point does it become an "obsessive" chess game [for us]?

Is it always the sex? 

When we think it's the sex, are we correct or is that what we project to?

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dagwoodbowser
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2015, 08:10:40 PM »

I read your post and while the scenes are are a little different it's probably just as twisted as the stuff I had with my BPDxgf. She (and I) enjoyed Role Play games. I was over 10 years older than her and of course if you havn't guessed it she had major "daddy issues" to which I rolled right along with. The scenario usually was where I would tell her:

"Ur a dirty girl. I know that... and u know that. We both know it. We are going to get to the bottom of ur Bad Behavior. But there's going to be some Rules."

"I'm going to ask you a few things. I know deep down inside you're kinda emrassed. You really, really dont want ur daddy to know what a dirty, slut you are right? She would Respond. But you now know that ur Daddy knows what a bad little baby girl you are right? She would respond."

And I wont get anymore graphic than that. Essentially, this was her opportunity to "confess" to me what she had been doing behind my back. Therapeutic? Was I actually encouraging her to be a "bad girl?" I have no clue. But it was twisted, it was addicting and like any other drug, coke, heroin, crack, pick your poison it creates an unhealthy obsession. It's been over 20 days now since I last saw or talked to her and those first 3 days were hell, but before I knew it 10 days had passed and so on. No that I have learned that I am Co-dependent and through therapy I see the damage that I was not only doing to her, but to myself. This type of stuff uncorks the Genie out of the bottle and for now have no idea if I will be able to have an average "relationship" now with another person. Like you, I know which buttons to push as she knew mine... unfortunately it was about 80% destructive in nature. So my friend, you... like me have to set our own boundaries. Our former BPD/HPDexgf's likely cant or wont. That is why as I read through our exchanges I was asking to what point does all this become an obsessive chess game of point/counter point between two dysfunctional people. Where do you draw the line? While being in N/C has been one of the toughest things I've ever had to do I know the pain and retching that will occur if I go back.



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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 09:08:49 AM »

So to finally answer your question, there is no question in my mind that us men always think about sex and when we are faced with pornographic imagery or promises we are at our weakest, there were times when my Ex was my mistress and she told me what to do, this was heaven for my ex HPD because she had full control of me I dropped my masculinity in order to relive myself.  You must understand that these types of woman arent interested in you they are interested in the attention and control they an have over you.  When you watch an action movie and the woman seduces a man, gets him into bed, then pulls a gun out on him while shes on top and demands money or inside information although fictional that is a HPD mind set.

Jammo - I'm not sure this is a universal statement to be made.  We have to be careful not to make psychology projections based on how we feel.  That's why we have so much material on the site - so we can better understand what we / they did and why.  This is to help us heal. It is also to raise our emotional intelligence for future relationships.

1. Not every man will fall powerless for obvious sexual manipulation. If a women is obviously using sex, crying, suicide, or breaking up as a way to control us, we see it. Maybe not at first, but eventually it is undeniably clear.  The manipulations you describe are really obvious. When it happens over and over... .not only are we choosing to ignore it, we are rewarding it, enabling it.

I have recently come out of a 2 year relationship with a girl who has has one of the most horrific up bringing, she was strangled by her own mother, was put into foster care and was dumped on someone's door step the day she was born.  Her dad abandoned her and her mother is now a heroin addict.  Her mother has Bi Polar and my ex carrys all the traits of BPD.  I have educated myself on this subject to help me heal, i understand the devalue process and the push/pull behaviour.  What i am struggling with is that, she broke up with me, and for about 2 weeks i was getting the the i love you, hate you treatment.  She demanded I met her to get my stuff back, so i could see the pain I had apparently caused.  

2. Be careful not to assume you know her motivations and desires based on what you felt - or what another women told you (remember, according to your expertice, all men would fall for this manipulation, which you state strongly and which is not true).  This girl has had a horrible formative life.  There is most likely a lot going on behind those eyes that is pretty broken.  But is it about power and control and seduction - or is it about feelings of worthlessness and dysfunctional coping to feel wanted?  Was it about using you - or was it about trying to hold on against her own uncontrollable self sabotaging?

So to your opening question:

At what point does it become an "obsessive" chess game of point/counter point?

And your answer that she is addicted to the attention the sex brings... .

Weren't you also addicted to it?  Just like every alcoholic, its not the bottle that addicted them, the bottle is just a bottle.

There is another deeper reason for the addiction.

Do you know what it is?

At what point does it become an "obsessive" chess game of point/counter point?
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jammo1989
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 03:04:42 PM »

So to finally answer your question, there is no question in my mind that us men always think about sex and when we are faced with pornographic imagery or promises we are at our weakest, there were times when my Ex was my mistress and she told me what to do, this was heaven for my ex HPD because she had full control of me I dropped my masculinity in order to relive myself.  You must understand that these types of woman arent interested in you they are interested in the attention and control they an have over you.  When you watch an action movie and the woman seduces a man, gets him into bed, then pulls a gun out on him while shes on top and demands money or inside information although fictional that is a HPD mind set.

Jammo - I'm not sure this is a universal statement to be made.  We have to be careful not to make psychology projections based on how we feel.  That's why we have so much material on the site - so we can better understand what we / they did and why.  This is to help us heal. It is also to raise our emotional intelligence for future relationships.

1. Not every man will fall powerless for obvious sexual manipulation. If a women is obviously using sex, crying, suicide, or breaking up as a way to control us, we see it. Maybe not at first, but eventually it is undeniably clear.  The manipulations you describe are really obvious. When it happens over and over... .not only are we choosing to ignore it, we are rewarding it, enabling it.

I have recently come out of a 2 year relationship with a girl who has has one of the most horrific up bringing, she was strangled by her own mother, was put into foster care and was dumped on someone's door step the day she was born.  Her dad abandoned her and her mother is now a heroin addict.  Her mother has Bi Polar and my ex carrys all the traits of BPD.  I have educated myself on this subject to help me heal, i understand the devalue process and the push/pull behaviour.  What i am struggling with is that, she broke up with me, and for about 2 weeks i was getting the the i love you, hate you treatment.  She demanded I met her to get my stuff back, so i could see the pain I had apparently caused.  

2. Be careful not to assume you know her motivations and desires based on what you felt - or what another women told you (remember, according to your expertice, all men would fall for this manipulation, which you state strongly and which is not true).  This girl has had a horrible formative life.  There is most likely a lot going on behind those eyes that is pretty broken.  But is it about power and control and seduction - or is it about feelings of worthlessness and dysfunctional coping to feel wanted?  Was it about using you - or was it about trying to hold on against her own uncontrollable self sabotaging?

So to your opening question:

At what point does it become an "obsessive" chess game of point/counter point?

And your answer that she is addicted to the attention the sex brings... .

Weren't you also addicted to it?  Just like every alcoholic, its not the bottle that addicted them, the bottle is just a bottle.

There is another deeper reason for the addiction.

Do you know what it is?

At what point does it become an "obsessive" chess game of point/counter point?

Hey Skip, i enjoy our debates and its based on personal opinion as usual, not every man would be manipulated and seduced by sex, but the ones who dont fall for are the ones who have had past experience and lessons learnt in their lives im reverence to this specific subject.  Yes Cluster B traits can of course be co morbid, and the majority of these if not all of the posts I read are centred around BPD.  The information and analysis I try to provide is based more towards the HPD side of the spectrum.  The attention through sex is what they crave yes, was it an addiction on my behalf? While in the FOG yes, but when you are out of the FOG you will learn that true strengh isnt about how rich you are, how strong you are or how attractive you are its based on your own mental well being and positive outlook on life.  In other words, if a girl offered me sex as easy as my ex did, I would drop them instantly, but thst is only because I just like you have been burned before so through experience our outlook changes on society and how it sexualises woman, how a girl can only get over 100 likes on Facebook when she has her cleavage out, its all fake, im 25, a young guy, and seeing girls dress all seductive in clubs with guys offering to buy them drinks makes me feel like im

Emotionally stronger than most.  The majority if not all men my age would fall for the sex only if they havent been burned before by these types of woman.  For example, you get rich business man paying tjem for money, you get the married man with a loving family, alll of these manipulated solely by sex.  Sorry for rambling, but im focusing more on HPD rather than BPD here, the seductive thearetical ones can manipulate anyone, its only after you've been burned by this behaviour before can you truly laugh, say no and walk away.
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 03:40:43 PM »

Hey Jammo, I am afraid that I can't totally agree with you, maybe because I am 47 and you are 25.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a beautiful woman but the overtly sexy ones don't do it for me, at all. Rather the trap I fall into are the less obvious women, the ones who are beautiful but demure and somehow seem more confident that all of the shaking the tail stuff isn't necessary.

This is not because I have been burned but because I prefer beauty and intellect. My exBPD must have known this because while she was highly affectionate, the overt sexual stuff was not present. Maybe it was because she was around my age and high functioning or maybe, again, she just felt that I would have walked if she had been too overt. I believe that in the past that she had probably been over the top but as our relationship, of four years, evolved, she became more and more elegantly conservative and she seemed so much more comfortable in that role.

The older you get, at least for some, the more it's about the emotional pleasures that one can derive from a relationship. The sex is great, although she was highly controlling and demanding which completely limited my ability to "roam", but I still fell madly in love with her.

Just a perspective from an old fart. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)!
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 04:00:19 PM »

Sorry for rambling, but im focusing... .

... .everything but yourself.

Thats a lot of sandbags of denial, Jammo. I say this with great compassion, you're hiding behind all of these sandbags.  You are looking in your yard, the block you live on, the city, the universe... .but you are not opening the door to your own house and looking inside.

This is hard to say, because I don't want to hurt your feelings. Very little of what you wrote in the OP is a typical 25 year olds healthy relationship.  There are bucket-loads of maladaptive things going on and darks paths.  It's not a judgment - no one here has lived a clean enough life to judge a fellow family member -  but we can stand back and hold up a mirror.

Your analysis starts the clock when she starts to have sex and stops the clock when its over.  

What about all the other parts of this relationship?

Your question is a good one - at what point does it become an "obsessive" chess game?  What were you playing for?

These are good questions.

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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 04:27:55 PM »

Skip is spot on, as usual. This is why I felt the need to add my 2 cents, because while sex is a beautiful thing, the crushing blow I have taken as a result of the loss of my ex had absolutely nothing to do with that, nothing.

No one is pointing fingers, this site is about helping each other out but this is exactly what I weaned from your post Jammo. This doesn't make you dark nor does it identify you, as a person, so please don't take it that way. We all have our demons, I can assure you.

Another thing that is always said is that our ex's either immediately sensed what made us tick or they very quickly caught on. I mean one of the things that I would always say was that the thing that attracted me most to my ex, from the dating site in question, was that she had "scientific american" listed as reading material. I am a good looking guy who has partied plenty, but after the attraction, I was looking for signs of intellect.

I will let skip take over because he always says it better. Again, please don't be taken a back. If I shared all of my demons with the group... .

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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2015, 05:02:54 PM »

There's nothing new under the sun, for that magnetic allure--the siren's call, has been tempting to distraction since our genesis.

We may blame the actress but her allure resides within us--not within her. It has always been that way. Long before her entrance onto the stage.

And to question why--without disingenuousness--without disconnection from the self.

She did not tempt us, using her body in all imaginable forms. That is a simple rationalization. But, she did allow us to objectify her in ways that struck a deep chord within.

To feel gloriously alive--while running from intimacy--is confounding. And we can claim, "oh I wanted intimacy with her," "I wanted to save that lost broken girl, and be a light." Yet, we enjoyed using and being used--until that ended.

So we must look within--at our needs. What is it that we want? The whore with a heart of gold. That exists in the movies. Not so much in real life. No, we wanted to objectify with a touch, a veneer of intimacy. We picked the type of women who could fulfill that for us. Castigating/shaming her for being disordered--after the fact? Were we saying that when her wrists and ankles were restrained? No, this is about us too.

Riddle me this--why do we get off on objectifying a partner when we're aware that a severe intimacy deficit exists? I'm twice your age and still ponder that. Still, there is no shame in questioning this. I give you kudos for trying to fathom a paradox. In the long run, shaming ourselves or blaming is not the way... .Acceptance of our divergent natures with curiosity and compassion may carry one forward in this one life that we share. As all things change.                        
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2015, 11:16:44 PM »

Hi jammo1989,

I like others haven't lived a clean life and I don't think there's shame in owning it. I think life is in the grey area.  I wanted to break a cyclical pattern with my dysfunctional behaviors because life wasn't fulfilling, peaceful, happy. It took me until 39 to see I was going down this path that was leading to my own suffering. Your a young man. What are your qualities you like about you? What are your strengths?
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