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Author Topic: "She says the same things about you"  (Read 562 times)
scraps66
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« on: May 05, 2015, 07:28:50 AM »

This is what our coparent counselor told me when I expressed, in an e-mail, my ongoing concerns with my exuBPDNPDw's mental fitness and how she is dealing with  our S10.

The topic I used was school placement.  Due to some bad episodes of aggressive behavior, school is proposing to move S10 to another school where they have ample support services in place.  I'm in general for the move and see the good.  Ex obviously wants to fight and get things her way, get rid of his aid (that's the issue, not the behavior), and have the school dist move all of the support services from the other school, to his current school.  Unrealistic.

So I see us getting embroiled in a mediation battle so ex can get her way.  More time and energy invested in debating rather than doing things for the S10.   

So I summarize this, send the thread of e-mails to the co-parent guy.  And he responds with this.

I then respond, "of course she does say these same things about me via the well-honed coping skills of blameshifting and psychological projection."

This is a good coparent counselor, but one-size does not fit all when dealing with a BP and it concerns me that he may not have considered this or caught on to just why ex says the same things about me.

Consistently, coparent counseling is practically useless with a BP.  He keeps telling me to keep my eye on S10, I do, but what happens when the other parent consistently stands in the way of progress for fear of someone else having an influence on the child.  lost opportunity to feeding emotional neediness from mother. 
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2015, 08:55:58 AM »

Is this a co-parent counselor who can help in getting a proper evaluation?  You would be willing to do so, she would want her own "expert," but perhaps you could get past that this time.
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scraps66
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2015, 09:08:58 AM »

I have spoken to this counselor about that and he responded that a statement could be put in his report to the effect, "the children would benefit from both parents being evaluated to determine that neither parent has issues effecting proper parenting." 

I intentionally told him that I have grave concerns with ex's mental stability and that I will state this in a session.  But so far the "reasonable" has fallen squarely on my shoulders.  I think this is the only reason he continues, that he knows I am capable, and maybe ex is not.  so I am bending, bending, bending and maye breaking now.   
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2015, 11:08:13 AM »

A very skilled mediator could potentially get S10 the services he needs. It would need to be someone who has been trained specifically in communication skills for high-conflict parents. A coparenting counselor without those skills is in over his head because there is no hope for therapeutic recovery, and he is not modeling the kinds of skills your ex needs. I wonder if you could do some sleuthing to find out if there are mediators with these types of negotiation skills. If you found three, you could then give your ex first pick (of your top choices).

Skilled negotiators tend to be very savvy about high-conflict people, because they are needed when two parties hit a standstill. You would then have to ask them how they might deal with a sample scenario.

There is a ton of material about this on Bill Eddy's highconflictinstitute.com. I was looking around the site when I wanted to understand if the mediator in my case was awful or good. I was pretty sure she was awful, and based on what I read on the site, she was.

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scraps66
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2015, 11:15:41 AM »

Aye LnL.  But in my mind we should not be mediating.  It wastes time and is only for the sole purpose of ex being "right."  It's a lot like her won behavior, blame everyone and everything else.

The new school has all the services he needs and within our twp.  Heck, it's in ex's catchment area.  But some of her argument is, "the boys like being able to walk to school and S10 doesn't like riding the bus."  S10 doesn't like riding the bus because he can't behave himself so now I drop him at school and take his brother to the bus stop - to go to the same school.  To me these are lifestyle considerations to tolerate S10s behaviors when what should really happen is get him the therapy he needs.  Unfortunately ex has stood in the way of that too.
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2015, 01:31:46 PM »

Not. Acceptible.

I have had two PC's. The first one was great. The current one is more of a mediator, but I asked her from the beginning whether she'd compromise on getting our children the services that experts recommend, and she said you don't compromise on that. A judge would agree with me, and a PC's job is to resolve things and keep you out of court, so the PC should not waste time in recommending the right services and shouldn't put up with ex's nonsense.

She may say the same things about you, but your PC should also note that she is against what the experts recommend. That is a sign of improper coparenting (unless they are recommending dangerous surgery or something.)

Recommendations should benefit the child, not play nice. He can make sure your ex keeps participating and be diplomatic with her, but in the end hopefully he recommends things your way.

That quote you have in the subject head is not bad on its face.

One other important thing - it may be ok if he recommends you both get evaluated, if it gets her in front of a good forensic psychologist.
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2015, 05:46:23 PM »

When I hit roadblocks with N/BPDx, I tried to use his stonewalling and inability to problem solve against him. He literally could not come up with an alternative to anything I proposed. This turned out to be a huge Achilles heel! His modus operandi was to block me, not problem solve.

S13 had some behavioral/learning challenges, and any time I proposed something, N/BPDx did everything in his power to undermine me.

What would happen if you said, "Ex, we will try your way for x weeks (until end of year). If there is no change in behavior, he goes to the new school. I will take care of enrolling him to ensure he has a place if he is successful changing his behavior at current school. If he does better, we discuss what worked and see if we can make this happen next school year."

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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2015, 05:10:05 AM »

LnL, that suggestion sets up the same sort of roadblock.  We would continue to disagree with what was improved behavior.  If she can't see that throwing a lunch bag at the principal's face - end of last year - or kicking, punching and hitting teachers and the principal, three weeks ago, there is little hope that she will ever se the light.  She shouldn't get to make these decisions.

This situation is ripe for conflict which ex craves. especially if it involves disagreeing with me.  Then what she does is convinces herself that she is "advocating" for S10 and feed her emotional neediness at S10's expense.   
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2015, 10:17:19 AM »

Yeah, I think that just gives her an opening for more strife. Also, when kids are at certain developmental stages, it's best not to wait too long.

Recently my ex was against making an appointment to get my son a certain kind of help, as recommended by the school. My ex said he didn't think he needed it. I said I'd make the appointment for a month from now, and if in the meantime the teachers say he is improving and no longer needs it, we can always cancel. Of course the teachers are unlikely to say he no longer needs the help, but it *seemed* like a compromise to him.
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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2015, 10:31:55 AM »

What are the alternatives? Or, maybe you have the leverage in this situation and can have S10 moved?
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scraps66
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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2015, 11:48:50 AM »

We do have the leverage, if we agree to allow them to move S10 that's what they will do.  That is their recommendation.  They wanna do it now, or, they are just showing an urgency but also the school knows it would be bad to move a child with 30 days remaining in the year.  Then they will recommend he start the school year at the new school.

What I think is that ex is thinking she wants the school dist to MOVE all the services or establish all the services at his current school.

I don't see a down side to moving him to a school that has full emotional support staffing and facilities.  Ex is arguing about things like transportation and S10 won't be able to walk to school and he doesn't like riding the bus. 

I half think that ex is worried that splitting S10 and S7 into different schools may impact her ability to pick the kids up every day... .especially on my days.

The alternative I see is leaving him at the current school next year.  If that doesn't work then we are SOL going into middle school. 

Fears - if ex doesn't get her way she will sabotage whatever happens;

S10 does not come around and I am rendered unable to do anything about it based on ex's manipulations.

This is more or less an example of how ex deals with her own behavior, deny and blame other things on the behaviors.

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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2015, 12:27:39 PM »

It's nuts that S10 can have that level of behavioral distress and your ex can block the move based on whether he rides the bus or not. 

By "we have leverage" you mean that your ex has to also agree to the move (joint legal custody)? Or does the school have some say in where he should go that trumps her?

If I remember correctly, you did not have a good experience your last time in court, and will not likely be going back any time soon?

I wonder if there is anyone in the school system at the general counsel level who could advise you on ways to have S10 transferred without your ex being able to block it.

If you could figure out a way to let her feel superior while also getting your way, that's what you need here. Maybe let her be right about the diagnosis? She wants him to be asperger's, is that right? Would that help make a case for him to go to a different school with services he needs?

I agree middle school will be a death spiral if he doesn't get the support he needs. I thought I was prepared for middle school and S13's issues, but no. It's a shark tank even for "normal" kids.
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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2015, 05:57:14 PM »

Get the school to put in writing their recommendation. Ask the school for info that led them to the conclusion they got to. Learn as much as you can about all the services and how it is beneficial for S10. Staying focused on what is best for S10 is what the courts will base their decision on. Showing how uncooperative ex is should give you all you need in court.

I started as an EOW dad and am now at 50/50. It took seven year to get to this point. During that time I had two custody evals, a parent coordinator, a co parent counselor. Lots of money that could have been better spent on the kids but it is the way the system "works". I try not to think about the court dysfunction because I see no solution besides fighting for our kids as best as I can. I have gotten a sense that the system is making some positive changes. It just takes so long.
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2015, 05:01:32 AM »

Thanks all. 

We, me and exuNPDBPDw, had a conference with pupil services at the school dist yesterday.

Pretty convinced that ex is going to dig her heels in and fight, go to mediation, school gets an attorney, we get an attorney, and all to arrive at - they will move S10 to the school with better services.

I had primed school about what her argument would be, primarily that S10 was being moved due to this "one" incident.  The fact is that this was one significant incident, hitting principal, representative of numerous other incidents.  Ex's response, "Oh, well, he was doing these things in first grade and you didn't propose moving him!"  Actually said this in the meeting!  She's making their argument.

With the posturing of our coparent counselor I have kept the unified front, agreed to not allow them to move S10 - this year.  But I agree with moving him.  But that's over, I can't unify this front.  Ex is simply looking for conflict and confrontation, I think.  That and she wants to use this process to try and prove that there is nothing wrong with S10.  That it's all been the school handling that has been the issue.

 
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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2015, 06:30:27 AM »

My ex will dig her heels in too. What I have learned is that doing what is best for our kids and letting her rage is all part of who she is.

Ex insisted our youngest (he was in kindergarten at the time and is now in 5th grade) had a learning disability and pressured the school to give him an IEP. I viewed it more as him acting out because of the separation and conflict between his parents. It took me about two years of being involved with him and school for some of the staff to get it. Finally the head counselor got it and things started improving. By 3rd grade he no longer had an IEP. The school gave boundaries to ex and stood their ground all with the help of the counselor. She knew how to handle ex.

The biggest problem I have with ex is that I can't be seen by her as the one with the idea. If the school comes up with a plan and insists they are correct ex will reluctantly agree. I used to have meetings with the school and they would then contact ex with "their" plan.

Ex still insists S11 has a learning disability even though he is doing very well in school. She hired a tutor for him when he is with her. I view that as a positive since the tutor does check his work to make sure it is correct. Before the tutor I would check whatever work he did at ex's place and have him do corrections when with me. The tutor made things easier for me.

Schools have pretty good legal departments so they know how to maneuver through the legal process to help students. I think it helps if they see that one of the parents is on the child's side.

I was never told directly, by the school, that ex was the problem but some of the things they said indicated they got it. Also, the fact that they had meetings with me before contacting ex about "their" plan said it all.
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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2015, 07:36:38 AM »

scraps, can you ask to have the meetings separate from your ex? Explain there is too much conflict, and request separate meetings. Eventually, I had to do that with ex, and by then everyone was relieved.

The reason why -- similar to what david said. If I agreed to anything, ex was against it. Separate meetings allowed me to speak freely without it ultimately making things more difficult for S13, because ex would opposite anything I suggested.

Otherwise, even if you win and S10 goes to the new school, if your ex thinks you want this, she'll find a way to undermine it. With a lot of absences, missing the bus, and probably some creative and inventive ways to sabotage the move.
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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2015, 12:34:53 PM »

I sent our PC a lot of info and documents in advance of the meeting and explained why I didn't want to bring it all up in front of ex.
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scraps66
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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2015, 01:31:28 PM »

LnL, the cat's already out of the bag, she knows I am for a move next year.

I am in contact with school to ask if there is anything that can be done in the process where the parents don't agree.  they know my ex well.  She's a math teacher and they would never hire her.

The path of least resistance may in fact be to let the mediation process play out, to do the work for me and arrive at the same conclusion that EVERYONE else has, it's best to move S10 to a school with better services for his IEP.  This outcome may be a good way of documenting and demonstrating ex's obstructionist mentality especially when it comes to "in the best interest of the child."

This really speaks to just how deeply disturbed these people are, they'll fight to be "right" even if it hurts their own child.

But, on the other hand, these people do not possess the rational mentality to realize what they are doing hurts others.

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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2015, 06:08:29 PM »

Lnl's strategy is probably what you should use for future encounters. I used that strategy. At first, the principal was against it because it took up too much time. After a few meetings and ex going against anything I said I tried to talk to the principal again about separate meetings. He again resisted. So I called last minute and said I couldn't make it. Literally one minute before the meeting was suppose to start. Everyone was there so they had the meeting. I scheduled for another day. That meeting was the most productive meeting we had. The teacher talked to me later and said it was a good get together. The principal realized at that time that two meetings were needed. It's been that way since.
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scraps66
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2015, 10:45:15 AM »

I'm pretty sure ex has convinced herself and that she is "right" and has already talked to a due process attorney.  Great!  More Ls to pay.

I spoke with school this am and they don't necessarily think the case is a slam dunk, but they expressed concern with S10s continued bad behavior and they did give me options.

I can actually withdrawal my signature from the recommended changes and allow ex to go through Mediation and Due Process herself.  I'm sure she has not provided FULL content to the L she spoke with so there is always the element of surprise that any L representing her would have to deal with.

What this would do for me is free me from legal expenses and show that I do not agree with ex.  the process would document her zaniness in  away provided school would "win" and be able to implement their recommendations.

I could also show good faith and go along with the process assuming we will lose in colassal fashion.

There is a third option for a "facilitated IEP" where the state brings in a team of people to observe S10 at his current school. 

One to her thing I didn't realize, witnesses of any kind can be called.  This was intriguing to me as there may be a few people that would testify to the situation not being in S10s best interest.  Situation being ex's mental condition. 

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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2015, 12:28:01 PM »

What this would do for me is free me from legal expenses and show that I do not agree with ex. 

Are these two opposing things?

Meaning, you are free from legal expenses. This is good.

You do not agree with ex. The agreement is that S10 should stay at the current school?

I thought you already did not agree with her, and wanted S10 to go to the new school?
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scraps66
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2015, 01:03:56 PM »

Ex wants S10 to stay at the current school.  There are no emotional support staff at his current school.  So school is recommending to move him.

I had only agreed that moving him immediately, what school proposed, was not a good idea given the now less than 30 days remaining in the school year.

Ex doesn't want him moved, at all, and is expecting the school dist. to put all of those other services in his existing school.  It's a huge expense.  She is now also taking shots at some of the staff.  last night she e-mailed his social skills teacher and told her that she doesn't have a "positive" relationship with S10 and that someone else should do his social skills.  Ex proposed someone with far less experience.
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2015, 05:48:37 PM »

This could be a huge tactical advantage for you, if you distance yourself from what your ex is doing. She is going to leave a trail of scorched earth.

My sense is that schools do not lose many legal battles. I know it does happen, it seems rare though. And if you and your ex are not on the same page, then that will make it harder for your ex (lacking a unified front) to make any headway. Telling the social skills person she is not qualified sort of makes the point that the school does not have the resources to support S10.

Give them enough rope, I tell ya.  

I'm sorry S10 has to get caught in the middle like this, and you have to endure the struggle, feeling like you cannot just focus on S10 and do the right thing. When ex stonewalled and obstructed me with S13's services, it was the lowest point. It felt like every day was a fight.

One question -- if your ex files a lawsuit, what would the default move be for S10 if the case goes on past the summer? In other words, if there is a legal action, who trumps where S10 goes to school? The school or the parents (including if they are divided)?
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2015, 06:53:26 AM »

I learned not to say what I believe about our boys to ex. She would always sabotage it in some way. Letting ex to her own devices often helps the boys and I much better. Lnl is spot on about a tactical advantage.

My ex became homeroom mother for our youngest. I thought that was a bad idea. She is unreliable. However, letting the school experience it on their own helps a lot. They then communicate with me more often because they know what happens when dealing with ex.

My ex needs to take the opposite approach of whatever I think too and I have learned to use that to my advantage.

Do you have evidence that she told the social skills person she is not qualified ? If so then you have some proof that S10 needs a new school with better resources for him and it came out of ex's mouth. I wouldn't let ex know that and use it if you wind up in court. Have ex on the stand acknowledging the current school doesn't have the best resources. Ex wants the school to spend tons of money to change that school to the other school instead of just sending him to the other school ?  If presented in front of any decision making body they will side with moving S10 because that is in his best interest.

I don't tell my ex anything anymore because that only gives her time to change her story.

Let the school know you are on their side with the move and that information should not be shared with ex. Our boys school district only needs one parents signature to make a change. It is up to the other parent to go to court. That would be an uphill battle since the school is recommending the change and you signed off on it. Your ex would have to have a serious reason to overturn that.

Remember you are dealing with twisted thinking so you have to adjust your strategy. In boxing you can try to beat the other guy by just swinging punch after punch and the opponent doing the same thing or you can duck and weave to miss punches and wear the opponent down. Letting ex punch the air is a good way to protect yourself and S10.
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