Just what's behind our obsession to over diagnose our partners as psychopaths?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This was in our international news feed; an article by Jeremy E Sherman Ph.D:


 
Just what's behind our obsession with how to diagnose narcissists?
~ Jeremy E Sherman Ph.D

[Amateur] mental diagnostics are a double-edged sword. They’re scientific-sounding and credible, which means they’re strong and incisive. And yet they’re heavily value laden.

People use them to cut through nonsense. For example deciding that someone is a narcissist is a good way to stop pouring over the details of their self-rationalizations.

But we also use them to create nonsense, for example when we ignore other people’s reasons, because after all, they’re just narcissists. Narcissists are very good at diagnosing narcissism to get what they want. If you disappoint them, then you must be a narcissist and it’s all your fault.
 
Gut check - where are we? You?
 
In my years here I've noticed that in the early years everyone was fast to diagnose their ex as BPD - so much better than just a selfish jerk.
 
As the world learned more about mental health over the years and how to deal with it, the Internet has escalated from "selfish jerk" ---> BPD (2000+)  ---> Full Blown BPD (2005) ---->  BPD/NPD (2010) ----> BPD/NPD/ASPD (2013) ---->  Psychopath/Sociopath (2015).
 
As we learn more about mental health, it seem the amateur diagnosis" are evolving to the latest "the more hopeless" term as time goes on.  The stories are the same here - if anything, less egregious - but the average diagnosis on the board grows more hopeless.

1. Are we making the diagnosis based on how hurt our feeling are, or based on the psychology of our ex?
 
2. Do some of us actually find comfort in being a victim?  Why?  
 
3. Are we taking something good - a very useful tool - and turning it into something not so useful? Instead of focusing on tools for dealing with difficult people and how to make better life decisions, we focus on the pathology of others.

4. Is excessive labeling helping those that do it?  Is it a crutch?

[Skip]

This was in our international news feed; an article by Jeremy E Sherman Ph.D:


 
Just what's behind our obsession with how to diagnose narcissists?
~ Jeremy E Sherman Ph.D

[Amateur] mental diagnostics are a double-edged sword. They’re scientific-sounding and credible, which means they’re strong and incisive. And yet they’re heavily value laden.

People use them to cut through nonsense. For example deciding that someone is a narcissist is a good way to stop pouring over the details of their self-rationalizations.

But we also use them to create nonsense, for example when we ignore other people’s reasons, because after all, they’re just narcissists. Narcissists are very good at diagnosing narcissism to get what they want. If you disappoint them, then you must be a narcissist and it’s all your fault.
 
Gut check - where are we? You?
 
In my years here I've noticed that in the early years everyone was fast to diagnose their ex as BPD - so much better than just a selfish jerk.
 
As the world learned more about mental health over the years and how to deal with it, the Internet has escalated from "selfish jerk" ---> BPD (2000+)  ---> Full Blown BPD (2005) ---->  BPD/NPD (2010) ----> BPD/NPD/ASPD (2013) ---->  Psychopath/Sociopath (2015).
 
As we learn more about mental health, it seem the amateur diagnosis" are evolving to the latest "the more hopeless" term as time goes on.  The stories are the same here - if anything, less egregious - but the average diagnosis on the board grows more hopeless.

1. Are we making the diagnosis based on how hurt our feeling are, or based on the psychology of our ex?
 
2. Do some of us actually find comfort in being a victim?  Why?  
 
3. Are we taking something good - a very useful tool - and turning it into something not so useful? Instead of focusing on tools for dealing with difficult people and how to make better life decisions, we focus on the pathology of others.

4. Is excessive labeling helping those that do it?  Is it a crutch?

[Invictus01]

If you ask me - BPD/NPD/sociopaths, doesn't really matter to a non. In the end, it is essentially the same thing. Of course, it is much easier to think of a personality disorder as "Aaaaaawwwww, he/she was so emotionally abused as a child that he/she just has this crazy fear of abandonment, so he/she runs first whether it is justified or not" than "Holy hell, he/she was so emotionally abused as a child that he/she is completely dead inside, doesn't feel anything for anybody, there is no difference for him/her between a garden hose and a human being". Does it really matter what shade of PD it is, if in the end you will be screwed over by that individual in some shape or form? Nope, doesn't matter at all.

[Turkish]

I found this in the reply column at the end of the article:

The biggest problem with becoming obsessed with the label “narcissist” is this: it distracts us from more immediate dangers. Countless readers ask me if there is hope for their abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, whom they fear might be a “narcissist.” My response is always the same: Narcissism is not the problem, it is the abuse. Whether alcoholism, chronic pain, loneliness or severe narcissism causes the abuse should not be our concern. Some lines should not be crossed no matter what drives people over them. Our priority is to protecting ourselves.

That sounds like it comes down to boundaries.

[Madison66]

Great thread! I found this site when I did a search of really confusing and irrational behaviors/traits exhibited by my ex gf. The labels demonstrated to me that something was very, very wrong in the r/s. While not diagnosing my ex gf, I had two T's strongly advise me that nothing would change and to leave the r/s. If nothing else, the labels motivated me to seek out a T to help me cope. What came out of it was a self exploration that had nothing to do with "her". After leaving the r/s, I found myself in a short r/s with another NPD woman (she confirmed she had been diagnosed after the fact). Shoot, I ignored red flags and then a couple months in witnessed some things that made the exit fast and easy! More importantly, I keyed into some r/s patterns that I am only responsible for. I'm now in a healthy, reciprocating love r/s and come back to this site to keep up the awareness of where I once was.

I totally accept that I often used the PD label as a crutch for the last half of the r/s! It was an easy way for me to not have to look inward and deal my own stuff. Again, it was thru T and one particular T that pushed me to look at what I was doing and not focus on "her". In the end, I chuckle when I say it but it's true - I needed this entire journey, good and bad, to shake me to heal grow.

[Dunder]

In the short time I've been visiting this message board I have noticed in myself and in others a craving for a positive diagnosis of BPD. At times, this strong need to label my EX's condition obscured the larger question at hand which was whether our relationship was a healthy one. Ultimately the label that comes with a diagnosis became irrelevant because the presence or absence of a diagnosis wouldn't change the reality of our relationship and the need for me to detach from my partner. Nevertheless, my therapist strongly suspects BPD, and I have been able to compare the behavior of a diagnosed sibling in my family with that of my Ex. I'm positive that my EX does in fact have this particular personality disorder, and this knowledge has been very helpful in guiding the healing process. I am very grateful that this site exists.

[zundertowz]

I actually read this article today www.the-toast.net/2013/12/04/your-ex-might-not-have-a-personality-disorder/  All I know is that when your ex threatens to have you falsely arrested on abuse charges, Smears your name to everyone you know, and verbally and psychically abuses you... .there"s more going on then them being A-holes.

[Achaya]

What has been most helpful to me in my recovery work with my family and with my ex partners is to strive for objectivity in my view of who these people are/were. When I can see that my ex has enacted the same pattern with people before me, it helps me be more objective about who she is. Many of us from abusive families were subjected to confusion tactics designed to deflect blame from the abusers. We are prone to thinking that our perceptions of our partners or our reactions to abuse may be "just us," i.e., invalid, even a sign of our own mean spirits (How could you say that about him? He loves you). I know that in my case, I fear that my presentation of my side of a relationship to a third party might not represent my partner "fairly." When I recognize her behavior in a diagnostic description I feel more like this is a pattern other people have seen many times, like the flu. It helps me separate myself from it. I find the same to be true about my own diagnoses---it helps to know this is not "me" exactly, but more like the scars people have who have been physically beaten.

It also helps to know that the diagnoses I am so, so willing to take on in my relationship, with my sword drawn ready for the demons, are diagnoses that cause mental health professionals to back off in fear or despair. There lies the reason why I couldn't fix my family or my exes---their problems aren't very amenable to fixing, even with a great expenditure of professional resources. It helps me be more objective about my probabilities of success when I charge into the battle.

There will always be people who embrace a victim identity, just as there will always be people who get addicted to the narcotics their doctors prescribe for relief of pain. They are not the majority.

[Invictus01]

www.the-toast.net/2013/12/04/your-ex-might-not-have-a-personality-disorder/  

I have read that article before and let me say this. If a person doesn't have very very good reasons to believe that his/her ex might have been off, yet still going down that path just to make him/herself feel better, that is really a crappy thing to do. However, the author seems to over simply the whole thing to the max. I think most people who end up going down that path do so because the experience just was so bizarre and surreal, they are trying to find answers. Personally, never in my life after a break up I thought I was going insane. Never I had suicidal thoughts. Never I thought about ordering a hit on her. Never it felt like I just lost a half of me, like the person I was with just died in a car wreck. Never I had people suggest that I might want to go visit a shrink because nobody had any idea what was going on with me. The whole thing was on a such absurdly different level, I don't even know how to describe it. If the author of the article suggested that I somehow went down the personality disorder path because I wanted to make myself feel better about things, I'd be deeply insulted.

[fromheeltoheal]

No one can do the work for you, you have to want it and do it yourself.  Another truth is that once the student is ready the teacher will appear; we need to be hungry.  If I'd found this site when I was in the relationship I most likely would have thought it was all crap and wouldn't have dived in; it wasn't until I was in a lot of pain that I became teachable.

So what we can do is keep talking, those who want to listen will, and those who need more 'experience' first might pick up a tidbit or two that will help.  Victimhood is a comfortable place, it shows up everywhere in the world, since taking responsibility for things is a lot more work and takes a lot more growth.

[bunnyrabit]

It's probably me but I'm having hard time seeing the correlation between over-diagnosing and being in perpetual victimhood... .

I'm well aware that I've been on these boards way longer than I should have. Even though I don't post much anymore, here I am 3 years later recovering from yet another recycle... .I'm actually that guy that made bad dating choices in between recycling with his ex. So I guess you could say I didn't learn my lesson well or heal well.

But over-diagnosing? I don't think I do that. My ex's behavior was way out of the realm of that of the selfish jerk but fit that of a textbook BPD, so what else can I say... .? And frankly I believe that finding out about her illness is what lead me to my first recycle as my anger towards had turned into compassion. As a result I forgave her way too easily because she couldn't help it, she's sick, poor thing... .and you don't just bail on sick people... .

The next recycle was just plain stupidity from my part, I have no qualms admitting that. Other than that I was never interested in any further diagnosis, I never even asked her psychiatrists.

So my lack of healing wasn't a result of over-diagnosing, I don't think and I don't really see how calling her an NPD/psychopath or whatever would have changed anything. It is kind of annoying when people do over-diagnose, and it's definitely becoming a trend on the internet. But how exactly does it hinder us in our growth or keep us in eternal victimhood, could you perhaps shed some light on that Skip?

[fromheeltoheal]

But over-diagnosing? I don't think I do that. My ex's behavior was way out of the realm of that of the selfish jerk but fit that of a textbook BPD, so what else can I say... .? And frankly I believe that finding out about her illness is what lead me to my first recycle as my anger towards had turned into compassion. As a result I forgave her way too easily because she couldn't help it, she's sick, poor thing... .and you don't just bail on sick people... .

Yes, once we learn about the disorder and it's challenges it's easy and appropriate to have some compassion for our exes.  And also, if we don't take care of ourselves first we have nothing to give; selfishness gets a bad rap, but it's mandatory.  Plus, we can't 'fix' someone with a personality disorder, and although they are not responsible for having it, they are still responsible for their behaviors, and giving them a free pass is enabling.

But how exactly does it hinder us in our growth or keep us in eternal victimhood, could you perhaps shed some light on that Skip?

Because focusing on them and the evil 'thing' they have, the thing with the clinical name that caused them to abuse us, relieves us of the responsibility of looking at our part, which is what victims do.  Granted some people are victimized and had no part in it, like someone shot in a random drive-by shooting for example, but we always had a part in these relationships and were there as volunteers.

[myself]

You can own up to your part and still be a victim.

There are so many layers to these relationships... .

It's black and white thinking to say it's just one or the other.

[Skip]

   My question is specifically about "over diagnosing".

For example, a psychologist suggested my ex was BPD.  But after months of reading about it and knowing what information he based he "diagnosis" on (little), I realized that she was most likely not clinically BPD. She had traits.

This is true for many members here.  Not all members (this is a general discussion about those that knowingly or carelessly "over" diagnose).

Getting an accurate read (or reasonably accurate read) on the ex is critical to understanding what was normal guy/girl conflict, and what was pathology (theirs/ours).

So what happens to the healing process when someone knowingly or carelessly elevates the persons condition to Full Blown BPD, or BPD/NPD, or psychopath, or vampire, or monster?  We start seeing comments like nothing I could do (I was helpless), and nothing I can learn (except stay away monsters - anyone exhiting anything unfavorable)

How can we be self-aware if we create a distorted environment?

[peacefulmind]

How can we be self-aware if we create a distorted environment?

This is a good point.

I, myself, has found it a huge relief to know that I am not the only one who has experienced the dreaded silent treatment, I am not the only one who has been strung along for several months where love basically did not exist anymore, and I am not the only one who feels like my soul has been ripped to pieces. The way I see it, the self-awareness is a part of processing, it is a part of realising what the relationship in fact was, and that we all play a role either as co-dependent or a simple push-over that can be manipulated with. The processing should (hopefully) bring us much deeper into our own identities so we can accept the fact that it always takes two to tango. However, victimising ourselves in such situations is a necessary trait that I think is inherent, and it is inevitable, given the sudden change in relationship dynamics from something you felt was perfect, to the worst nightmare.

We can only relate so much to the characteristics of BPD, but what fits fits. It may be overexaggerated in some cases, but it is positive that a lot of people ask "hey, was this BPD?". This shows that the key to understanding what went wrong, and to understand one's own role in the demise, is there. Whether people accept that or not is really their own decision. Returning members may not have accepted it, other members who only drops in every once in a while to greet and offer guidance may have. I think that's one of the strengths about this board, the fact that it is entirely up to yourself what you get out of it. I have used the phrase "nothing to be done, it was inevitable", but this is not far away from the truth. That doesn't mean that I don't accept the gruelling truth that I had my own part in both enabling and triggering it. I just believe that adults should be responsible for their own actions, disorder or not.

I agree that it is important that self-reflection attains a very centered role in the detachment process (The five stages of detachment doesn't mention self-reflection and how to include your own role in the now ended relationship). I think this is a very good discussion and I am happy you decided to take it up with the members on this board.

Thank you.

[Achaya]

Regarding overdiagnosing I read that mental health professionals themselves are inclined to use "borderline" as an insult as well as a diagnosis. Dr. John Briere, who is a psychologist and trauma specialist, says in one of his books (I can look it up if anyone wants) that psychotherapists even refer to colleagues they don't like as "borderline." By the way, anyone who wants to read a compassionate, nonjudgmental, insightful presentation on BPD should check out his writing and workshops.

[Skip]

Regarding overdiagnosing I read that mental health professionals themselves are inclined to use "borderline" as an insult as well as a diagnosis.

The professional community clearly has not caught up on this one.  How many therapists will flippantly label a third party as borderline, but would not diagnose that person if they presented to them as a patient? Sadly, lots. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Regarding overdiagnosing I read that mental health professionals themselves are inclined to use "borderline" as an insult as well as a diagnosis.

The professional community clearly has not caught up on this one.  How many therapists will flippantly label a third party as borderline, but would not diagnose that person if they presented to them as a patient? Sadly, lots. 

I think it's an offshoot of where 'borderline' came from, the line between neurotic and psychotic, a dumping ground to put patients who didn't fit elsewhere.

[Turkish]

My mom's not a mental health professional, but she's a Registered Nurse. She loves "diagnosing" difficult people as Borderlines. Given that she's BPD, I wonder how much is projection given her often inability to deal with other difficult people. It could also be that over the years that she's hung around a lot of unhealthy people as well.

[Bensonshays]

Out of curiosity,  are there any mental health experts who post here? The moderators seem really well informed; did you guys just do a lot of homework? 

[Missy94]

Skip - isn't it part of the cycle of grief? For those who are uninitiated google at will! I've studied this a lot in my work and I can say from my experience that searching for meaning/explanation IS a healthy reaction and part of a larger process... .of course no one should be labelling in a negative fashion but again part of the grieving process is anger... .and so we do sometimes need to let off steam here - isn't that what the boards are partly for? Expressing and seeking support in our LOSS?

Labels particular help some patients come to terms with their problems. Less isolating to know there's a name for it and other people have it too. They can help friends, family and loved ones understand something that can be confusing and scary also then they can better support the sufferer? Or make decisions about how they want or if they want to be in that particular relationship.

On a personal note my experience of my ex is that he has many if not all of the symptoms of BPD. His behaviours were so alien to me I sought to understand them. It's just who I am. I don't believe in 'over diagnosing' I am not a medical or psychiatric consultant and I don't like pop psychology but asking the question didn't hurt. It helped with the genuine feelings of fear I was having (again part of the cycle of grief). When we finished I found it really helpful to have information from this site to explain and support my experience. I have by no means not questioned why I was so into this man and what is behind my own attachment issues and cycles of behaviour/personality traits and our particular codependancy and communication problems.

Seeking meaning and searching for answers is simply part of our emotional integrity too... .

[Skip]

Reminder:

  My question is specifically about "over diagnosing".

[Turkish]

Reminder:

  My question is specifically about "over diagnosing".

In that case, what my T said: "not everything needs to be pathologized." I think he was saying not to attribute every little behavior to BPD, Dx'd or not.

[enlighten me]

I think we overswing in both directions. From doubting there was anything wrong to believing they may be sociopaths.

[Madison66]

I think the "self awareness" comment is really valid when discussing this subject.  I think I posted it earlier, but whether you over diagnose your partner or ex or you use the diagnosis as a crutch to blame everything bad in the r/s on them, then you risk not looking inward and dealing with our own stuff.  

In a very loose comparison on diagnosis' and labels, my D was diagnosed with an eating disorder a couple years ago.  She used to get pissed when someone would label her with having an eating disorder, which she clearly did have.  My point to her was that the diagnosis or label brought with it a wealth of treatments, information, support for the person with the disorder and for the family members.  It all helped my D become healthy again and I learned how I could support her and be a better dad.  Guess what?  Eating disorders are a form of a mental illness and are often on a spectrum.  Sound familiar.

In the same respect, when my ex gf and I sought out a T for couples counseling and the T met individually with my ex gf, she came back to me and advised me to leave the r/s unless I was prepared to deal with the same emotional dysregulation, chaos and abuse I was seeing after just one year.  She used the words "exhibited strong traits of BPD and NPD", so I went searching for information and that helped land me here.  When I would question why I was putting up with all the crap, I also found information on co-dependency and clearly had to state that is what I brought to the party in bad way.  

Listen, when any of us leaves a r/s with a person w/PD or someone we just were not compatible with we are simply left with ourselves.  Blame, turn them black, diagnose, over-diagnose?  :)oesn't matter!  The dynamic didn't work for us.  Again, we are only left with ourselves and with the ultimate power to make changes in our lives.  The r/s didn't work for me and now I have to do the work to truly understand who I am and what I want.  That's it... .   

[Pou]

How can we be self-aware if we create a distorted environment?

Skip, interesting comment.  I think one has to be a fool trying play a victim role in a NPD / BPD situation.  That would be just purely a waste of time.  Perhaps, if one does it, then this person may have some type of mental illness.  I mean... .who wants to be in a unhealthy relationship and stay?  I certainly don't.  My situation is unfortunate and I have lots to blame for living in a denial and didn't get out early ... .I didn't get out early because I refused to admit that my wife has PD.  So I keep on working on our relationship and tried everything ... .that including having 3 kids together.  After I exhausted all good efforts, bending backwards and took it like a champ, I still get the NPD to the max treatments from my wife.  So, then I finally got it ... .after years of backstabbing, spreading false rumors about me, making false police report, and threaten me to control me and my children ... .you know, I finally got it.  If anything, I am guilty of being "under diagnosing" my NPD wife and guilty of being "stupid" and "ignorant" about there is such thing as PD.  And until this day, I don't believe anyone who hasn't experience it would believe my story ... .so I don't tell ... .and I carry this baggage with me ... .all day long.  Only on this board that I find comfort in sharing my problems.  But to be fair, I have come across a few posts here ... .that I suspect that are the PDs that are posting and projecting.  After reading all about them, I start to pick up clues.  So my view is that one has to be a fool or a PD to be playing the victim here ... .from what I can tell and from the posts that I have read on this board, I would guess less than 5% is playing victim.  I also don't see (in general) that people on this forum are too eager to proclaim their love ones have PD without substance.   If I see anything like that, I probably would have left this forum long ago.  Just my 2Cents.  

[Bensonshays]

I think we overswing in both directions. From doubting there was anything wrong to believing they may be sociopaths.

I think that's the key. The "It was her fault or my fault" mentality is the wrong approach to assessing a relationship gone bad. I was guilty of it until I started posting here. That being said, falling head over heals for someone after one date and desperately seeking attention from a partner, to name two examples everyone here is probably familiar with, is erratic and unhealthy behavior. After breaking up with someone who exhibits those behaviors, or worse, it's very reasonable to want to find their source. A lot of people just overshoot their mark by putting it down to mental illness right away and closing the case. 

[blissful_camper]

Many who find their way here are in a state of shock when they land on the forum.  I think that excessive labeling may be a natural response for some members to traumatic events experienced. As one weaves their way through understanding those experiences, and doing inner work, the need to label at all may be alleviated as healing progresses. So, I don't think it's necessarily hurtful, but at a certain point it's helpful to redirect the focus away from the former other, to oneself.

[once removed]

Reminder:

 My question is specifically about "over diagnosing".

In that case, what my T said: "not everything needs to be pathologized." I think he was saying not to attribute every little behavior to BPD, Dx'd or not.

i have read, on this forum for example, a thread about BPD and sleeping disorders. while i can reasonably see some overlap, a sleeping disorder has absolutely zero to do with diagnostic criteria. i have a sleeping disorder and i am not BPD. it gets to the point that there are threads on "did your BPDex yawn weird?". that the diagnosis or more, becomes an obsession. ive seen a thread about a persons BPDex being "diagnosed with everything in the dsm" which ill just throw out there, seems unlikely.

i will admit that things like the fact that my ex did some crazy stuff in her sleep made me feel more connected to this forum and others. it did nothing in terms of helping me heal, understanding borderline personality disorder, or seeing my role in the relationship. it was a bit of validation; though toward what, im not sure.

while my healing went through lots of phases, serious healing began when i wasnt in need of diagnosis, or questioning my exes every move. im not saying a diagnosis doesnt help give you an idea of what youve been through, or lay out your path to healing; it does, and it did for me. "BPD" meant okay, it wasnt all my fault, this is traumatic stuff. validation was important, and if the relationship, pd or not, had driven me to see a therapist, that therapist would have validated my experience. what im partly illustrating is that "BPD" was enough for me, at the time. im also illustrating that whatever the diagnosis, clearly all of us that end up here have been through traumatic stuff. the diagnosis doesnt heal us whether its aspd, sociopath, psychopath, narcissist, sociopath, jerk. i reached a point at which i did not care, saw the relationship for what it was, and healed accordingly. its not overdiagnosis that inherently gets a person stuck, its over focus on any given diagnosis. at the same time, we should also understand that overdiagnosing may in and of itself  be a passing phase.

[enlighten me]

I personally believe that knowing or suspecting a pd helps us to come to terms with what we have experienced and our part in it.

I think the problem comes by not letting go of the past and moving on. This falls into two camps.

One the obsessive who cannot come to terms with what happened and continues to find a comfortable answer to what happened.

Secondly those of us still tied to our exs through our children and who have to still deal with their behaviour. By knowing about BPD we can understand a lot of their behaviour but every know and again they do something that we cant explain with what weve learned. This uncertainty leads me to seek answers and sometimes the only behaviour that matches is ASPD. Im not saying she is ASPD. Im sure we all have done something that fits neatly into a criteria for a pd. Its the uncertainty that drives us to cover all options.

[Skip]

I think we overswing in both directions. From doubting there was anything wrong to believing they may be sociopaths.

One the obsessive who cannot come to terms with what happened and continues to find a comfortable answer to what happened.

Secondly those of us still tied to our exs through our children and who have to still deal with their behaviour. By knowing about BPD we can understand a lot of their behaviour but every know and again they do something that we cant explain with what weve learned. This uncertainty leads me to seek answers and sometimes the only behaviour that matches is ASPD. Im not saying she is ASPD. Im sure we all have done something that fits neatly into a criteria for a pd. Its the uncertainty that drives us to cover all options.

I guess I'll test this question with you, enlighten me. You have been her almost a year and over 1,400 posts before considering ASPD just recently.

1. Are you overswinging now?

2. Does this fit?   ASPD, or any PD is generally not about a recent unexplained behavior - its about a pervasive lifetime pattern of that behavior. In the case of ASPD, there needs to be, in addition, evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

3. Do these fit (below)?

• failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;

• irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;

• reckless disregard for safety of self or others;

.
9% of people with BPD have co-morbid ASPD.  In recent months we suddenly have far more than 9% of members discussing this.  In many (not all) cases, I'm not seeing ASPD symptoms in the members post history description of the ex.

  I ringing a warning. Are we (as a group) getting caught up in the recent growth of websites calling exs "sociopaths"?  :)o we need to be mindful of this and a bit more centering of others that are "over-reaching"?

[Infared]

"Attention I ringing a warning. Are we (as a group) getting caught up in the recent growth of calling ex sociopaths websites on the net? Do we need to be mindful of this?"

Seriously, I think we do need to be mindful of this, especially if we are in a lot of emotional pain and anger after the ending of one of these dysfunctional relationships. Plus, most of us, as is true for me, are speculating about BPD and the mental illness in general... .but I also think that a lot of us have been involved with damaged people who hurt us  And repeatedly hurt others in their relationship patterns... .and we are honestly trying to sort it out and understand.  It's a sticky wicket!  

[enlighten me]

I dont believe my exgf has ASPD I do believe she has traits though.

With regards to over analysing some of it may be due to the media. In the uk there has been a lot on psycopaths recently so all of a sudden there are psycopaths everywhere. When nurse beverly allet was convicted of a series of murders in a hospital she was diagnosed with munchausens by proxy. All of a sudden this was the flavour of the day and any strange behaviour was put down to this.

with regards to you questions.

Yes my exgf does things that could get her arrested. Shoplifting, dangerous driving, benefit fraud. She has scant respect for authority and doesnt believe she will get caught.

Its more to do with the lack of compassion that I have seen. I will have to read the dsm for ASPD again and see which criteria she ticked again.

[BorisAcusio]

9% of people with BPD have co-morbid ASPD.  In recent months we suddenly have far more than 9% of members discussing this.  In many (not all) cases, I'm not seeing ASPD symptoms in the members post history description of the ex.

The rise in co-morbidity is to bypass the limitations of the current diagnostic system. It is useful to capture clinically relevant information for professionals with broad knoweledge of the underlying structures, but it clearly confuses the general public.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414654/

About the trends in the community, until now, negative traits were ascribed to narcissistic features, which is just as ill-informed as the recent trend of labeling them ASPD. Menospehere could be a possible source, like the alpha male nonsense that is slowly gaining momemntum by the the younger members.

[Trog]

The harder the label on the ex the more blameless we can become or justified in the things we did. When I'm feeling very triggered or disregulated I will think of my ex as a sociopath/psychopath all the way through the spectrum to the lightness of "misunderstood", its less to do with them than it is to do with us, our own psychology coupled with our level of healing. My ex was pushing me into therapy and buying me self help books despite being diagnosed with a mental illness herself, she was doing the same thing we do. Deflection.

No one will do anything to us that we don't invite them to do. Apart from in extreme circumstances, being burgled or worse. Even if I think about the times my ex slapped me or behaved terribly, she tested me all the way up until that point, had I closed the door earlier on lesser bad behaviours she'd either have left or known my boundary.

[Infared]

The harder the label on the ex the more blameless we can become or justified in the things we did.

Trog... .I agree with most of what you have to say... .especially how both parties can deflect.  ... .but I am not owning for a minute that it was "my fault" that my ex cheated on me with another man.  That is what she told me.  That is twelve year old stuff.  That is extreme co-dependence if I think I am responsible for someone else's self-centered behavior.  Right?

[Skip]

The harder the label on the but I am not owning for a minute that it was "my fault" that my ex cheated on me with another man.  That is what she told me.

Nobody owns another person's infidelity.

That's not what we are talking about  

[Trog]

The harder the label on the but I am not owning for a minute that it was "my fault" that my ex cheated on me with another man.  That is what she told me.

You're not responsible for her behaviour, but did it really come out of the blue? Did she have a great character and you were fine with her and then she cheated on you? Im talking more from a choice perspective as in you choosing her. Of course she took the decision to act that way, if she didnt want to be in the relationship she should have just left. I would say my sentence is not extreme co-dependence, its extreme independence, this way you have the full control over what happens in your life. Its certainly my fault for enduring the pain of watching my wife become unstable and psychotic again, she stopped taking her meds, she always had a bad attitude towards taking them and I took a chance. I trusted her inspite of the evidence not too.

[BorisAcusio]

You're not responsible for her behaviour, but did it really come out of the blue? Did she have a great character and you were fine with her and then she cheated on you? Im talking more from a choice perspective as in you choosing her. Of course she took the decision to act that way, if she didnt want to be in the relationship she should have just left. I would say my sentence is not extreme co-dependence, its extreme independence, this way you have the full control over what happens in your life. Its certainly my fault for enduring the pain of watching my wife become unstable and psychotic again, she stopped taking her meds, she always had a bad attitude towards taking them and I took a chance. I trusted her inspite of the evidence not too.

You raised very important questions. I understand why we're initially resistant to consider this points of view, but taking responsibilty is really empowering.

[Trog]

Yes, agree, initially its really really hard, when you're in acute pain, to take that stance. But its actually counter productive because the more I realise that I let a situation develop and didn't remove myself or set strict boundaries, the more I take responsibility, the better I feel. Hating and feeling like a victim is really painful. Putting your hands up and seeing where you went wrong in judgement and then understanding where that poor judgement comes from is far more empowering and far reduces the emotional pain of "what that XXXXXXXX did to me!" attitude, "I trusted her and look how she repaid me"!

In my case, she started off on a 2nd recycle telling me she taking meds and it was helping, the story, month by month changed, she started to take them less and was trying to prove to me how she didn't need them. This was the point in time, I was so attached and hopeful already, I ignored the warning despite having gone thru this exact pain (the BU and watching my wife descend into abusive madness) that nearly killed me before. That was my weakness. Sure, she was stringing me along, but I was weak, and it hurt the pair of us and in the end destroyed our marriage. I have to work on my boundaries and value myself, not be scared to be alone or fearful of losing something short term. Not doing that has really caused me a lot of emotional and financial pain. And as much as I miss my wife and still have rotten days and self doubt to this day... .I wont do it again.

[once removed]

i think we need to be gentle here, too. while presumably none of us have the ability to medically diagnose another person, i have even less ability to dismiss a strangers diagnosis of someone else. its possible if not likely that members here have been with a sociopath, or a psychopath, or ASPD, to or not to the exclusion of BPD, or whatever else. while we have an article that profiles a relationship with a pwBPD, ive never seen such an article about the evolution of a "psychopath/sociopath" relationship. i guess the point has already been made about checking our motivations to diagnose and what it means to us.

[Skip]

There are a lot of mental conditions that look like BPD or even overlap with it. When we encounter high conflict or destructive relationship behaviors it is important for us to know that the problems can be caused by a broad range of things that look a lot a like:

   immaturity,

   short term mental illness (e.g., depression),

   substance induced illness (e.g., alcoholism),

   a mood disorder (e.g., bipolar),

   an anxiety disorder (e.g., PTSD),

   a personality disorder (e.g., BPD, NPD, 8 others),

   a neurodevelopmental disorder (e.g., ADHD, Aspergers), or

   any combination of the above (i.e., co-morbidity).

How often is "any combination of the above?"   In an NIH study of 34,653 people*, of those that had clinical BPD,

   74% had another personalty disorder,

   75% also had a mood disorder, and

   74% also had an anxiety disorder.

If BPD doesn't explain what you are seeing, don't casually take a knee jerk jump to ASPD or its most egregious manifestations, psychopath or even more so sociopath.  If your ex was a sociopath, you wouldn't be guessing.  These are in a very different class than those who are addicted, bi-polar, depressed, OCD, ADHD, etc.

Unless someone clearly stands out as a  psychopath or even more so sociopath, it makes sense to look elsewhere first.  Statistically, you are more likely to find your answer.

[Icanteven]

If BPD doesn't explain what you are seeing, don't casually take a knee jerk jump to ASPD or its most egregious manifestations, psychopath or even more so sociopath.  If your ex was a sociopath, you wouldn't be guessing.  These are in a very different class than those who are addicted, bi-polar, depressed, OCD, ADHD, etc.

100% agree with the spirit of your comments, in that all too often I see a post like "my ex is BPD because s/he threw a temper tantrum and ghosted me," even though there aren't any real clinical features to speak of.  Yes, there are a lot of us running around with diagnosed mentally ill SOs/exSOs - yours truly included - but as you've stated to me in another thread, a lot of these stories involve people who don't meet the criteria for BPD.

With that said, I was struck by the Hare Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R) and how strongly it correlates to the Cluster B spectrum

To wit:

glib and superficial charm - HPD
grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self - NPD
need for stimulation -BPD
pathological lying - APD
cunning and manipulativeness - APD
lack of remorse or guilt - APD, BPD
shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness) BPD, HPD
callousness and lack of empathy - BPD, APD
parasitic lifestyle - APD, BPD
poor behavioral controls - BPD, APD
sexual promiscuity - BPD, HPD
early behavior problems - Cluster B
lack of realistic long-term goals - BPD
impulsivity - BPD
irresponsibility - BPD
failure to accept responsibility for own actions - BPD, APD
many short-term marital relationships - BPD
juvenile delinquency - APD
revocation of conditional release - APD
criminal versatility - APD

One could quibble with a few of my characterizations (is parasitic lifestyle really BPD? I'd say the effects of BPD certainly can lead there, but I digress), but almost all of these could be inserted into the appropriate line of the DSM and none would be the wiser.  Moreover, in the case of a true BPD, one can rack up almost enough points to qualify for the full-blown diagnosis of being a psychopath without any other comobordities (not.  bloody.  likely.); in fact, it's the criminality that would keep the non-institutionalized population from achieving exactly that diagnosis.

Should we walk on eggshells (sorry, bad pun) around throwing out these diagnoses as non-clinicians?  Absofreakinglutely.  But, for many of us who've seen the chart and seen these exact phrases written in our loved one's notes, it's a sobering idea that behind the masks was a person who possibly qualified for the clinical - not jilted ex lover throwing aspersions - definition of psychopath.

[Skip]

But, for many of us who've seen the chart and seen these exact phrases written in our loved one's notes, it's a sobering... .that... .person who possibly qualified for the... .definition of psychopath.

In the Hare test, each of those traits are scored as none (0), some (1), a lot (2). If someone scored 1 on all 20 criteria they would not meet the minimum qualification for psychopathy.

A prototypical psychopath would receive a maximum score of 40 or a 2 on all twenty.

A score of 30 or above qualifies a person for a diagnosis of psychopathy - in other words a 2 on at least 10 and a 1 on all the remaining (or a 2 on 15).

If an ex meets the all criteria - scored on all of these things - notably:

• criminal versatility
• revocation of conditional release
• juvenile delinquency
• many short-term marital relationships
• parasitic lifestyle

... .then psychopathy is reasonable conclusion.

If we used this criteria here, before making a claim it would be good for all.

Thanks for posting.

[fromheeltoheal]

Should we walk on eggshells (sorry, bad pun) around throwing out these diagnoses as non-clinicians? 

Yes, it can be beneficial to learn the criteria for various disorders, information I never expected to learn or even want to, but learning a little of that stuff immediately makes us feel not alone and not crazy; hey, the pros know about it and they even have names for it, this is good news!

And it has limits, like how far do we want to go as amateur shrinks?  It can be better, once we know there are things that are grouped together into something called "Cluster B", to just read the list of traits that are ascribed to each, see which ones describe our exes, could be mix and match from different disorders, doesn't matter, point is once we see a list of traits staring us in the face that describe our ex pretty well, decide if those behaviors are acceptable or not.  If we made it to this board probably not.  And then act accordingly.  Of course that's our head talking, our heart may differ, and aligning the two is part of the grand adventure called detachment.

[Icanteven]

If we used this criteria here, before making a claim it would be good for all.

What I've never been able to figure out is how one gets a 1 instead of a 2, or vice versa.  I do understand the scale and do know that one needs a 30 to qualify, but you've got four buckets in the DSM and three in Hare, one of which is that the trait isn't present, so... .

Does it beggar imagination to think that if one did qualify for the DSM criteria around lack of empathy one would not score the corresponding 2 on Hare? Could someone be a 1 on one and check the box (sorry I know I'm really, really assizing the terminology here) in the DSM?

I don't think of my wife as a psycho at all - I think of her as the love of my life who is suffering from a severe mental health crisis that blew up our marriage - and I have no idea if she'd be a 1 or a 2 but I do know that she manifests multiple traits from multiple Cluster B disorders - that, as you pointed out, overlap with other diagnoses - in addition to her multiple official diagnoses.  

In case I wasn't clear, I'm all for treading very lightly when it comes to throwing out labels when it comes to this or any other measure, just flabbergasted by how much Cluster B overlaps with this criteria.  If I gave any other impression that's poor communication on my part.

[once removed]

i dont think its purely a matter of obsession. i think often times its a combination of "confirmation bias" and bad (or misconstrued, or cherry picked) information on the internet.

many websites on abuse and abusers lump BPD into the same category as NPD, ASPD, etc (all very different disorders) and present a narrative that makes all of the abuse appear to be calculated and planned. honestly, it can be pretty easy to see it that way. its common on this board to read "my ex lacked remorse or empathy". how many of us felt that way at at least one point? when we are told, with regard to BPD, that it might appear that way because people with BPD "feel too much", or about the inner shame and defense mechanisms that guard against feeling shame, its hard to make sense of, and it may not line up with how we feel emotionally, or our general narrative of the events, let alone our limited understanding of personality disorders.

so you read a site on abusers that tells you most of these disorders are indistinguishable. maybe you check the diagnostic criteria and one or two or more sound on the surface like they overlap, either with our experience or what we know about BPD. you read a story on here where the actions described sound similar to what happened to you, even though the surrounding circumstances and history may be very different. suddenly you have a narrative, and voila, ones ex is a whole heap of disorders.

some of it may be obsession. when we do the post mortem of the relationship, which we may do many times, we view the relationship, and the actions of our partners through the lens of mental illness. if something doesnt quite line up with our knowledge, the temptation is to look for another way to explain it; for example, "well my ex definitely calculated so that must have been something other than BPD".

diagnosing a person with a personality disorder (let alone more than one) is an immense, very involved challenge. how many of us knew our exes outside of the relationship, for an extended period of time, and observed their struggles in every area of life? how many of us know anything about our exes previous relationships beyond what we were told?. how many of us have more than one experience with a person with disordered traits (extremely important to consider before we overgeneralize and make blanket statements about a particular disorder, or apply our stories to someone else, or vice versa)? thats what most of us are operating on. thats the bias, and we tend to look for information to confirm it.

that list is a good example of how we interpret this information. any single item is not necessarily indicative of a personality disorder, and any one of them may apply to someone with a specific personality disorder or not - partially because most of them are very vague, and every disordered individual is a unique person. its important to put these items in context: what is "irresponsibility"? in what areas? to what extent? what is "need for stimulation" and who doesnt have that? pwBPD, npd, ODD, can be criminals as can someone with none of the above. its not merely that theres an exception to every rule, its about perspective (ours is inherently biased) and understanding what drives the specific behavior. i could spin most of that list with my own personal interpretation and turn my ex into a psychopath or multiple disorders, though im relatively confident they would not apply.

[Reforming]

There's a range of very good thoughts from different posters who all make good sense.

It's hard to think of a more denigrating and damning label than psychopath. It implies so many negative traits and more importantly guilt, profound defectiveness and an absence of humanity.

So if you ended up in relationship with a psychopath you are automatically a victim and cleared of blame for pretty much everything that takes place.

I think the truth is the true psychopathy is pretty rare. The vast majority of us have had relationships with people who exhibit traits of various different disorders.

Unpicking our own interaction and responsibility for what happened is painful and challenging so understandably some of us reach out for the biggest baddest label and stick it on our partners or exes. I'm not judging and I do understand just how painful and traumatic these relationship can be but very little in life is black and white.

Reforming

[Herodias]

To me the difference is whether or not they "loved" us at all or "used" us for supply. It seems pwBPD are more loving and have strong emotions. NPD and Anti-Socials do not. That is why I wonder... .Mine has strong traits of all, except psychopath... .except he called himself that a few times. Gave me the googly eyes on purpose. I believe psychopaths don't need/or like  other people around... .Mine does. So I would like to know so that I understand what I was married to exactly. Does that make sense? I have decided they are really just a cluster of them all... .too many overlapping traits- at least mine is. I call him anti-social just because that is what the domestic violence people told me he could be. His being a cutter, fearing abandonment and all the other BPD traits are there too... So I am just confused by it all. He is Comorbid with too many things.

[jhkbuzz]

Call me slow, but it took me a full 7 years for it to occur to me that something was very, very wrong with exBPD partner's behavior.

And that's the thing: all of us struggle with the loss of love at the end of a relationship, but it was impossible to make sense of the chaotic behavior ; the say-one-thing-and-do-the-opposite  behavior that endlessly made my head spin. It wasn't that I needed to label her, it was that when I discovered these boards I realized that there was a reason (and a label) for all the chaotic behaviors that I couldn't make sense of.

Somehow, naming that was a very important part of healing. Once I did that, I could begin to look inward at my own unresolved issues - and that remains my focus today.

I felt like a victim in the beginning - and rightly so, I think. I was lied to and cheated on and cruelly treated. For some reason, it took me a long time to actually see the reality of how terribly I had been treated. Then I mourned. Then I moved on. I don't really have the personality to remain in a perpetual victim stance.  

Sometimes I think that the perpetual victims are in so much pain that they haven't yet realized that the end of the r/s has opened up core wounds from childhood. Those posters think that the pain is all about their ex.

[Reforming]

@Herodias

I think there is a real issue with overlapping traits or co-morbidity. It creates a lot confusion for therapists, patients and for those of us who are trying to understand what happened in our relationships. There have been efforts to reform the diagnostic criteria for PDs to resolve this but there's a long way to go

@jhkbuzz

I agree with a lot of what you say. Initially putting a name, like BPD to something that felt bewildering and traumatic can be a huge relief. If it's used as a base camp it can give you the space to begin understanding your own behaviour too.

The original question was about diagnosing our exes as psychopaths. I think this is a slightly more extreme proposition. It's a black and white all enveloping diagnosis that makes it much harder for to understand the nature of our own behaviour

Reforming
 

[seenr]

Sometimes I think that the perpetual victims are in so much pain that they haven't yet realized that the end of the r/s has opened up core wounds from childhood. Those posters think that the pain is all about their ex.

Interesting discussion but is it that simple?

I know I have childhood wounds, but with other exes, I was able to move on, even after a long time with that person. After one year with this most recent ex, we parted briefly. I knew something was different. It felt like she had walked over to me, punched me in the face & asked 'why did you do that?'. I hadn't experienced that before. Nor had I experienced the complete high of being with someone like her, exciting, sexy, fun.

I don't feel like a victim, I made choices to be with her, nobody else. But I do question whether this hurt was always inside me or if it has only recently been opened by being with someone like this.

[jhkbuzz]

Interesting discussion but is it that simple... .with other exes, I was able to move on, even after a long time with that person. After one year with this most recent ex, we parted briefly. I knew something was different.  

Yes, I've experienced other breakups as well - but nothing like this. I'm discovering that the unusual level of grief that I felt at the end of this r/s is connected to older, unresolved grief from childhood. It all "joined together" at the end of the r/s to cause me a searing amount of pain - like nothing I've ever experienced. This is all being uncovered in therapy. I wouldn't have thunk it in the beginning.

[iluminati]

I definitely understand that, both as a member and an ambassador.  When I originally joined 6 years ago, it was after being informed by multiple mental health professionals that she was diagnosed with BPD.  In an ideal universe, I'd love this site to have confirmed diagnoses, but that would be a privacy law nightmare. 

I personally believe that the tendency to diagnose someone as mentally ill is a way of self-defense.  It's much better to admit that you were abused by a Monster (tm) then to realize that you made a poor choice in choosing a mate.  One is out of your hands.  The other you are responsible for, even if you aren't responsible for their behavior.

[FallBack!Monster]

But I do question whether this hurt was always inside me or if it has only recently been opened by being with someone like this.   

Which hurt?  Why do you give her so much credit? Maybe its just that the r/s was always at its highest excitement, with sex or drama, so when she decided to distance herself, you was just left up the air.

Maybe she has no control over what you're feeling. Just like you have no control over what she feels from one moment to the other.

Maybe the cure for a failed r/s with someone ill or healthy, is finding yourself and finding someone who match you.

Maybe you should stop given her so much credit and power over you. Just maybe.  Isn't it true that you was once an individual with a different mindset before knowing her. Maybe you can work on being that individual again. Maybe

[seenr]

I'm discovering that the unusual level of grief that I felt at the end of this r/s is connected to older, unresolved grief from childhood.   

Thanks. Is it anything you could share?

For me I think the things said to me, the things done, the false accusations, completely trigger me from my childhood. Watching two parents spiral into horrible insults followed by items getting broken then a make up phase where us kids would feel happy and safe only to have that taken away again a few weeks later, this relationship has brought those wounds back to the surface.

I know because of what I saw and heard as a child I probably never felt good enough or possibly even to blame for their situation. All these years on I feel like I am to blame for my ex's unhappiness and the manner in which she could reduce me to ruins inside a minute is like my parents used to do.

I simply didn't have those types of row with my previous ex's, rows yes, viciousness and violence, no. So yes you might have a point here with this one.

[seenr]

Which hurt?  Why do you give her so much credit? Maybe its just that the r/s was always at its highest excitement, with sex or drama, so when she decided to distance herself, you was just left up the air.

Hurt from childhood I guess.

Even since she has ended the relationship she has tried to initiate drama. I have gone completely no contact apart from arrangements with our son. She does not like this & shows it when we have to meet.

Maybe she has no control over what you're feeling. Just like you have no control over what she feels from one moment to the other.
Maybe the cure for a failed r/s with someone ill or healthy, is finding yourself and finding someone who match you.

Very true. The thing is, after 5 years of being told she wanted me so much and made every effort to be with me, to suddenly go cold was hard to accept. But I tried to move on and twice she drew me back in. I had begun to see other people, nothing serious but she initiated us getting back together twice, then discarded. But you make a good point - finding a better match without the drama and chaos might be in order.

Maybe you should stop given her so much credit and power over you. Just maybe.  Isn't it true that you was once an individual with a different mindset before knowing her. Maybe you can work on being that individual again. Maybe

Yes I can. I have done, but over a 3-4 year period, she initiated contact and asked to get back together. Then 2-3 months in she would suggest things were not working. I would panic & offer more, try harder. I was bewildered that she would come back and make so much effort to get me, then tell me it wasn't working. I understand completely what went on now. She was trying to get the relationship working on her terms and she knew about my issues from childhood, she knew I would panic.

My plan now is to work on me until I have this out of my system. I think it is going to take time.

Thanks for writing

[Jonathan Ricciardi]

There are people who diagnose, just to make themselves feel better. Myself, my ex did everything that a person with BPD would do, to a T. I had no idea what BPD was until the relationship ended. She dumped me after 5 months of a whirl wind romance. We have known each other since we were about 10. Both in mid forties now.  She dumped me by text message, blocked me on FB, changed her phone number, and ended all contact about 4 years ago. Mature people in their forties can end relationships and still be friends and not ignore the ex on purpose. I never chased her or the police neve got involved, she just one day ended it and all contact. That is why I diagnose, normal well-adjusted adults don't act that way. Hurt a person and not give one care in the world about that persons feelings.

[FallBack!Monster]

There are people who diagnose, just to make themselves feel better.

I did diagnose the sh*t out of her.  Until about 7 months after break up, she finally sent me a text saying she was tired of our Dr patient relationship.  

Yes, I HAD TO find ways to excuse her behavior.  I had to feed myself that her behavior towards me wasn't personal.  That it wasn't my fault.  That it wasn't b/c of my lack of anything. WOW! what I discovered during this time was that she is a CLASSIC TEXT BOOK CASE.  She did everything that the DSM, articles, blogs, videos, ect said she would do.  EVERYTHING! She perfectly match the criteria for a sociopath, and fit all but one of the criteria for BPD.  All criteria for BiPD, and at least half for Asperger.  The NPD shines during her raging period.

I love her though, but naaaaah!

That's my reason

[jhkbuzz]

I think that, similar to you, there were echos of the same dysfunction that existed in my childhood home as were in my r/s. TBH, I'm still working through all of it so I don't have crystal-clear answers.

[GoingBack2OC]

In reply to Skip's OP post. I'd have to say, that in all the relationships I've had, 2 major long term and countless dates, short relationships, etc, in my 36 years... .My last; with my uBPDgf - she was the only person I ever was with where I felt the need to "figure her out".

I didnt even really narrow it down until well into year 3 of the relationship. After year 1-2, I just thought she was very self centered, selfish, an only child, and thus, must have had issues because of that.

It drove me nuts, to the point where I spent a lot of time - a lot of time - going through many different "diagnoses'" from narcissist, to psychopath, sociopath, schizoid, then BPD.

I've never done that before... .with anyone. But then again, I've never dated anyone quite like this girl. Not only was she 100% insane, she slowly made me feel insane as well.

Amazing.

[fromheeltoheal]

Not only was she 100% insane, she slowly made me feel insane as well.

I know what you mean GB, and in keeping with the spirit of this thread, someone with a personality disorder is not technically insane, even though an informal use of the term might seem right; that's exactly how I put it initially, I fled the relationship with what was left of my sanity.  And in fact, I first found this website by googling "psychopath", turns out she's not one, but it seemed like an appropriate label at the time, and that search led me into the wonderful world of personality disorders.  Easy to see why those labels get thrown around in the culture so freely.

[seenr]

I first found this website by googling "psychopath", turns out she's not one, but it seemed like an appropriate label at the time, and that search led me into the wonderful world of personality disorders.  Easy to see why those labels get thrown around in the culture so freely.

I know in the past when her & I broke up, I used terms like 'Narcissist' in messages to her. That was unfair. I am not a professional and have no right to call her something like that.

So this time around, I haven't said anything. All I know is that her decision making and thought process is a lot different to mine and I felt like the harder I worked in the relationship, the less reward I was receiving from it. Something was wrong, I think it was a lot on her side, but who knows, it could have been me too. I'm said that it didn't work out.

[fromheeltoheal]

I know in the past when her & I broke up, I used terms like 'Narcissist' in messages to her. That was unfair. I am not a professional and have no right to call her something like that.

And again in the spirit of this thread, there are now quite a few peer reviewed studies that link 'narcissism' with social media, not in a personality disorder way, but in the tendency to self-promote way, and the overall 'narcissification' of the culture in general.  "Narcissist" has become another popular and loosely defined term, although someone with NPD or strong narcissistic traits will have a field day with these relatively new platforms.  Most of us noticed; I loved the text and Facebook version of my ex, this fictional character, the real one, not so much.  So there's a key for all of us: if you really want to get to know someone, lose the technology and spend time together; we've been evolving our gut feel ability for millions of years, turns out it doesn't work on an iPhone, too new.