can you do or say anything a BPD may perceive as positive during devaluation?

[problemsolver]

I've only just recently have seemed to hit the devaluation phase and its full blown get out of my life

. Some things I could never of imagined her saying to me... .only a month ago she was saying we could be "civil" now she wants me gone gone gone. Is there anything you can say to attempt to switch back perhaps not into a full blown r/s, but at least to not being completely and utterly hated? Trying to explain you don't really have to hate my guts... .we were just incompatible/ bad timing.

[lm911]

My еxperience says- no, there is nothing. I have tried almost everything for the past year and it has got only worse. It is up to them to stop the devaluation.

[workinprogress]

In my marriage, I have gone from being devalued to idealized, back to devaluation.  Usually, I have no control over the idealization.  It just happens. 

Then, suddenly, I will do or say something that she doesn't like and I am devalued again.  The harder you try, the worse it gets.

I have noticed that the idealization occurs when I am getting a bonus or she needs me to perform a major chore.  So, in a way, she is buttering me up for something she wants.

[tortuga]

I think the best thing to do, is to get away from the idea that you can "make" your pwBPD perceive something as positive.  Get that idea out of your mind.

What you can do, and what often nominally "works" - is to validate.  (SET, and other communication tools discussed in the Lessons). 

It is sometimes very difficult to do. 

"I hear you, that you are upset about 'x', and I understand that.  What do you think we can do, to help with 'x'?" (and etc - not a great example because it's broad and vague). I don't know if you can apply this when "she wants you gone gone gone".  Maybe ask why, and then apply 'x' to that, and work from there?

If they can receive a little validation, if often helps them to work their way out of the dysregulated state, to where they CAN be reasoned with.  But sometimes, they've got their mind made up that you're evil, and there's nothing you can do, they won't even listen to you.  It's very hard. 

[Lucky Jim]

No, I don't think you can reverse the process once you have been painted black.

Believe me, I've been painted blacker than black, if that is possible, after getting divorced from my BPDxW.

Why bother w/validation?  Best course is to move on, in my view.

[Invictus01]

I've only just recently have seemed to hit the devaluation phase and its full blown get out of my life

. Some things I could never of imagined her saying to me... .only a month ago she was saying we could be "civil" now she wants me gone gone gone. Is there anything you can say to attempt to switch back perhaps not into a full blown r/s, but at least to not being completely and utterly hated? Trying to explain you don't really have to hate my guts... .we were just incompatible/ bad timing.

But that's the thing - it ISN'T just incompatible or a bad timing. It is that you can't have a normal relationship with a personality disordered person. It will ALWAYS be a "come here - go away" relationship, whether it is a romantic relationship or a friendship. There is nothing in between. You can say and do whatever you want - it will nothing change.

[lm911]

I think the best thing to do, is to get away from the idea that you can "make" your pwBPD perceive something as positive.  Get that idea out of your mind.

What you can do, and what often nominally "works" - is to validate.  (SET, and other communication tools discussed in the Lessons). 

It is sometimes very difficult to do. 

"I hear you, that you are upset about 'x', and I understand that.  What do you think we can do, to help with 'x'?" (and etc - not a great example because it's broad and vague). I don't know if you can apply this when "she wants you gone gone gone".  Maybe ask why, and then apply 'x' to that, and work from there?

If they can receive a little validation, if often helps them to work their way out of the dysregulated state, to where they CAN be reasoned with.  But sometimes, they've got their mind made up that you're evil, and there's nothing you can do, they won't even listen to you.  It's very hard. 

I have tried SET, it did not help. Nothing helps. As simple as that.

[enlighten me]

The quickest way to end the devaluation is ro not try. When you are devalued they see you as needy and annoying. Anything you do will get their back up. By stepping back as soon as possible it gives them time to calm down. During devaluation you are a trigger for them.

[Trog]

,You can't change or control anything about a BPD as they operate from feeling=reality. You can do the same thing twice and one day it's great the next its abusive! We need to arrive at the point where we disable our self worth from the arbitrary whims of a disorder person.

[Sunfl0wer]

I originally forgot, however, posting somewhere else, I remembered... .  While my ex is more NPD vs BPD... .

Since feelings = facts... .

He was very responsive to calm touch.  Would never refuse a massage.  Since he FELT good, he had a hard time thinking I was the enemy if he had a massage in the past 24hrs.

However, with more BPD, I realize their moods cycle faster... .so maybe that couldn't work.

[Lucky Jim]

We need to arrive at the point where we disable our self worth from the arbitrary whims of a disorder person.

Agree w/that, Trog.  Our worthiness needs to come from within, not from outside approvals.  Basing our happiness on positive feedback from a pwBPD is unpredictable and puts our power in the hands of a disordered individual.

LuckyJim

[BorisAcusio]

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do as they are basically replaying their original trauma with different casting:

"The partner is not treated as a separate person upon whom the BPD displaces infantile feelings for the purpose of understanding them and working them out- but as a kind of maternal figure on who the BPD can engage in a kind of instant replay of the abandonment scenarios from childhood. Without realizing it, the BPD drags past and present and projects them onto the partner."

The notorious borderline rage will at times reflect such annihilation panic. One borderline client, I shall call her Mary, directed a torrent of rage at me which continued for about 45 minutes. I had, so I learnt afterwards, frightened her by placing two cushions on the floor and inviting her to join me there in the first few minutes of our session without exploring this first from the safe position of our chairs as I usually did. Presented with a trigger for her worst fears by my provocation, Mary did join me on the floor albeit with a vengeance! There seemed to be absolutely nothing tolerable about me whatsoever both as person and a professional as she hurled accusation after accusation at me. Initially, I felt powerless to respond in any way but bear the excruciating onslaught and survive it somehow.

integralbody.co.uk/Resources/Tom_Warnecke_The_Borderline_Experience.pdf

[BorisAcusio]

I have tried SET, it did not help. Nothing helps. As simple as that.

It may be helpful to avoid complete meltdown at the moment, but the underlying dynamics is going to play out regardless of your efforts. Using it effectively would require a more neutral empathy, distance and firm boundaries, none of that achievable in a romantic relationship, on the other hand, I could see how family members may benefit from using it.

[workinprogress]

I don't know if this helps, but don't show any vulnerabilities to your BPD, especially when painted black.  For some reason, being human and displaying any weakness causes the BPD to lose respect for you.

It is a hard way to live life, but I no longer show any sign of fatigue, doubt or whatever to my spouse. 

View being painted black as riding out a storm, actually many storms.  There are many factors that cause them to paint us black.  It could be attention from a new person from the opposite sex.  A friend trying to stir up discord.  Family members of the BPD.  Or, just simply themselves creating drama out of the blue.

If you are staying, you just have to find a way to "deal with it."

[blissful_camper]

I agree with the insight other members have offered.  I think it's important, as difficult as it may be, to not internalize the devaluing experience.  That means not taking it personally.  It's not about you. During devaluation, I feel there's not much that you can do to "change" what's taking place in the pwBPD's mind.  You can, however, determine your response.  I feel that the most constructive response (at that moment and as one is experiencing devaluation) is no response.  It may seem counter intuitive.  No response is an action but it's not an active-action.  No reaction/no response.  Any active-action, I feel, simply reinforces in one direction or another, what is being experienced in the mind of the pwBPD.   

[Mel1968]

Thank you so much for this thread. I wish I had seen this 5 months ago and saved myself - and her - the misery of the almost daily attempts at trying to make things better when she was devaluing me. And which only made the hate part of  her push pull love hate so much stronger each time I did it. What you all say makes so much sense and gives me the confidence to do what only this morning I'd decided I was definitely going to do no matter how counter intuitive and impossible it seems - give up trying to defend myself and  paint myself white again. I feel relieved. Kind of.

I know I've said it before but these boards are a life saver, really. Thank you.

[Lu Lu]

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

[Sunfl0wer]

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

I peek around the staying board, just to try to learn the skills. 

I have a feeling depending on who you ask a question to... .You will get a different answer.

Around here, it almost seems fact that: NO, you cannot say anything right.

So this is my 2 cents... .

When you added "but... .I do love you."  You essentially undid the initial validation. 

My belief:  yes, validation can work, it can be helpful.  It is helpful to learn and use with anyone.

It will not cure everything, it will take practice to learn, it may work sometimes, and other times not.

[SWLSR]

PROBLEM SOLVER

have you ever heard the iggy popp song the passenger.  This is where you are metaphorically.  Your are in a car and she is the driver you are not that simple.  Is there anything you can do, the harder you try the worse you are.  The less you try the better you are.  What you can do is begin to live your life as if she is not going to be apart of it.  The future may bring her back but your efforts can not.   

[blissful_camper]

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement. 

[goateeki]

Not only do I think it is impossible for the non to do anything correct in the eyes of the borderline during devaluation, you might find yourself in a situation where you are castigated for doing the very thing she had in the past asked you to do.

So, for example, I would be told that it was essential to her happiness that when she has a problem or difficulty, that I refrain from trying to help her or solve the problem with her, but instead merely empathize with "Oh, that's so crazy."  Then, while she is devaluing me and the relationship, I would be admonished for responding to her problems with "Oh, that's so crazy" INSTEAD OF trying to solve the problem for her.  This is a real example.  I could go on with the "Why are you doing the terrible things that I've asked you to do?" examples but I won't. 

I think it's important to keep in mind that these people (I'm sorry if it sounds like I am objectifying them) are just two steps away from schizophrenics in terms of their craziness.  I'm comfortable using the term.  My T (an esteemed, widely published, and highly respected person in the profession) is comfortable using the term, and drilled that reality into me for a month before I saw he is right. 

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships. 

[Mutt]

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD. They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships.  

You're almost describing alienation.

Is that what you suggest that sets ourselves free? There are members with family members on the forums; parents, siblings, children... .

My apologies in advance if I don't understand your concept.

[Lu Lu]

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement. 

That is exactly what my ex Bpd does ! No matter how much I try to validate what she is saying , it angers her further , it's as if she says things that are so untrue on purpose , so I argue !

My calm helpful approach seems to make her throw more at me .

Is this typical Bpd behaviour ?

[mgl210]

TBH,

I don't think you really could say anything to an indivdual with BPD that would be construed as positive. Sure, it might be a nice thing to help calm their nerves for a bit, but then they could very well switch like a bad light bulb on you and then start to think the worst of what you had just said.

IME, I tried and tried numerous times to let her known that certain behaviors that she did were hurtful and that some were good. I tried my best to enforce the positive, but then in given time it would become like a double edged sword with her. If I gave her praise, it would be conceived as I truly did care and care about her feelings, but within a flash, that would then turn into that I was smothering her. It kind of reminds me when I had received her breaking up text on my birthday mind you via text. She was telling me how she felt that I didn't value her and that I was controlling her and that I was trying to tell her how to run her life. When the whole rs I kept telling her that I worry I might come off as too controlling with the way that you lean on me at times to the extreme. It like one of the moderators would always tell me. No matter what you do, you will be conceived as the bad person in the rs.

Hope this helps

MGL

[FannyB]

One time my ex was angry at me for getting outbid for an item on ebay - I was a 'skinflint'. I then explained  that I considered that the price was too high for a second hand item so I'd bought her new. Of course I got an apology and the best make up sex ever - in my dreams!   She turned tail and accused me of being profligate - a classic double bind! When they hate you, you can do no right - accept it and give them the widest of berths. Unless you live with them and have nowhere to hide. Then you're up sh*t creek without a paddle. 

[Lu Lu]

Not only do I think it is impossible for the non to do anything correct in the eyes of the borderline during devaluation, you might find yourself in a situation where you are castigated for doing the very thing she had in the past asked you to do.

So, for example, I would be told that it was essential to her happiness that when she has a problem or difficulty, that I refrain from trying to help her or solve the problem with her, but instead merely empathize with "Oh, that's so crazy."  Then, while she is devaluing me and the relationship, I would be admonished for responding to her problems with "Oh, that's so crazy" INSTEAD OF trying to solve the problem for her.  This is a real example.  I could go on with the "Why are you doing the terrible things that I've asked you to do?" examples but I won't. 

I think it's important to keep in mind that these people (I'm sorry if it sounds like I am objectifying them) are just two steps away from schizophrenics in terms of their craziness.  I'm comfortable using the term.  My T (an esteemed, widely published, and highly respected person in the profession) is comfortable using the term, and drilled that reality into me for a month before I saw he is right. 

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships. 

That makes so much sense ! Should we not be hurt by the angry rants and dire need to reduce us to feeling useless and so wrong ?

It's so hard because it's someone you love saying such terrible things and acting in such destructive ways,you do feel pretty much abused , I'm sorry that's how I feel .

Your example is so similar to situations of mine ! Too many to mention !

I also notice that she says that I do and make her feel such negative things , but it's her doing them ! Am I right in learning this is projection ?

I hope your ok and staying strong .

I'm very new to all of this so excuse if I'm posting wrong or jabbering !

[Lu Lu]

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

I can see the mistake I made now , I did not even think of that ! I've disagreed with what she has said haven't I !

My goodness I find this so very difficult

[BorisAcusio]

One time my ex was angry at me for getting outbid for an item on ebay - I was a 'skinflint'.

I can relate to to that, FannyB. My ex managed to rage over a pizza we shared, she had me chose between last two slices and I got the small one with with a bit more pepperoni. Of course it wasn't about the pizza, the impending devaluation was lingering for months, the script was running in her head, she was getting gradually more and more dysfunctional with suicidal/homicidal ideation and sexual acting out.

[cosmonaut]

It is always important to remember that BPD is a serious disorder - one that we can neither control nor fix.  The best that we can do is to try and create the best possible conditions.  Ultimately, we can't control the responses, though.  Could something be interpreted positively?  Absolutely.  I've seen this myself with my ex.  It is still possible to soothe, but it will depend entirely on the emotional response of our partner.  The best path when our partner is dysregulated is to validate, validate, validate.  Give as much space as they need.  Avoid blaming and shaming.  Be patient, don't panic, and just hope for the best.  There's really not much more we can do.  It is a disorder.

[FannyB]

One time my ex was angry at me for getting outbid for an item on ebay - I was a 'skinflint'.

I can relate to to that, FannyB. My ex managed to rage over a pizza we shared, she had me chose between last two slices and I got the small one with with a bit more pepperoni. Of course it wasn't about the pizza, the impending devaluation was lingering for months, the script was running in her head, she was getting gradually more and more dysfunctional with suicidal/homicidal ideation and sexual acting out.

Boris

Had you worked out she had BPD by that point? When you don't know it's soo confusing. When you do, their bonkers behave simply validates your analysis - and this provides a modicum of consolation IMO. 

[blissful_camper]

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement.  

That is exactly what my ex Bpd does ! No matter how much I try to validate what she is saying , it angers her further , it's as if she says things that are so untrue on purpose , so I argue !

My calm helpful approach seems to make her throw more at me .

Is this typical Bpd behaviour ?

I don't know if it's typical.  It's possible that the desire to cultivate a negative response stems from wanting proof to validate the pwBPD's feelings about you.  Maybe an easy way to describe it is fault-finding.  It might go something like provoke, provoke, and provoke more until the other reacts negatively and proof is obtained.  

I think that you do the best that you can using SET and if that is ineffective then it may be time to give that person space.  

[ Analogy: When a horse is in full-on panic mode you let go of that horse's lead so that the horse can safely flee.  Pulling back or struggling with the horse will only make the horse's panic worsen.  The same applies to aggressive horses or ones turning their behind at you. (Drop your end of the rope)]

[Sunfl0wer]

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement.  

That is exactly what my ex Bpd does ! No matter how much I try to validate what she is saying , it angers her further , it's as if she says things that are so untrue on purpose , so I argue !

My calm helpful approach seems to make her throw more at me .

Is this typical Bpd behaviour ?

I don't know if it's typical.  It's possible that the desire to cultivate a negative response stems from wanting proof to validate the pwBPD's feelings about you.  Maybe an easy way to describe it is fault-finding.  It might go something like provoke, provoke, and provoke more until the other reacts negatively and proof is obtained.  

I think that you do the best that you can using SET and if that is ineffective then it may be time to give that person space.  

[ Analogy: When a horse is in full-on panic mode you let go of that horse's lead so that the horse can safely flee.  Pulling back or struggling with the horse will only make the horse's panic worsen.  The same applies to aggressive horses or ones turning their behind at you. (Drop your end of the rope)]

I agree!  Then... .sometimes if proof could not be obtained, he'd resort to a delusion.  He'd twist some reality until it was no longer truth... .but a made up story of an event.

[blissful_camper]

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships. 

What sets us free is when we reach a place of acceptance, forgiveness, and compassion for ourselves and our significant other.  

[blissful_camper]

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement.  

That is exactly what my ex Bpd does ! No matter how much I try to validate what she is saying , it angers her further , it's as if she says things that are so untrue on purpose , so I argue !

My calm helpful approach seems to make her throw more at me .

Is this typical Bpd behaviour ?

I don't know if it's typical.  It's possible that the desire to cultivate a negative response stems from wanting proof to validate the pwBPD's feelings about you.  Maybe an easy way to describe it is fault-finding.  It might go something like provoke, provoke, and provoke more until the other reacts negatively and proof is obtained.  

I think that you do the best that you can using SET and if that is ineffective then it may be time to give that person space.  

[ Analogy: When a horse is in full-on panic mode you let go of that horse's lead so that the horse can safely flee.  Pulling back or struggling with the horse will only make the horse's panic worsen.  The same applies to aggressive horses or ones turning their behind at you. (Drop your end of the rope)]

I agree!  Then... .sometimes if proof could not be obtained, he'd resort to a delusion.  He'd twist some reality until it was no longer truth... .but a made up story of an event.

I experienced that too.  I found those events particularly saddening.   There's not much that can be done under those circumstances except to use SET the best that you can.  Then give space if stability/harmony isn't restored. 

[Sunfl0wer]

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

I can see the mistake I made now , I did not even think of that ! I've disagreed with what she has said haven't I !

My goodness I find this so very difficult

, yea,

I think the way it works is... .

Feelings = facts (HER feelings, NOT yours!)

So essentially, you are validating that it is ok and normal to feel whatever it is that she is feeling.  (just be sure you know what the feeling is!)


You are pretty much just finding a way to say every time that she has an uncomfortable feeling: 

Feeling = normal and ok

I think often they are so disturbed by their own feeling, that it triggers even MORE feeling... .and then the whole mess snowballs into a warp vortex of unleashing feeling that frightens themselves.  So if you can early on find a way to say that feeling is ok,  I accept and am comfortable with you feeling (not someone I want to reject for feeling) then this helps them to tolerate the experience and you may actually soothe them before they frighten themselves.  It seems like you have to be a role model for managing uncomfortable feelings!  (but HERS!)

The tricky part is that if you accidentally hear incorrectly... .it can backfire.  If she is sad and you are letting her know that feeling angry is ok and you love her... .she will be pissed and react emotional to being heard wrong.

Anything else... .pretty much is invalidating.  Actual facts... .are invalidating... .as they are irrelevant to her "facts" which is what she is feeling, unless of course you are providing actual facts to relate and prove her "facts" to be worthwhile.

Ok... .I'm dizzy!

NM... .I can not say this concisly!  My head is spinning! LOL!

[blissful_camper]

When feelings equal facts it can be rough sledding when those feelings flip flop, rapidly changing direction.  I commend those who try to make it work.  I couldn't do it.

[disillusionedandsore]

It's a no win I think.  I couldn't do it. It makes me feel incredible sad and upset because I like harmony and resolution and I hurt when he hurt... .It is truly a disgusting disorder. 

[Lu Lu]

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

I can see the mistake I made now , I did not even think of that ! I've disagreed with what she has said haven't I !

My goodness I find this so very difficult

, yea,

I think the way it works is... .

Feelings = facts (HER feelings, NOT yours!)

So essentially, you are validating that it is ok and normal to feel whatever it is that she is feeling.  (just be sure you know what the feeling is!)


You are pretty much just finding a way to say every time that she has an uncomfortable feeling: 

Feeling = normal and ok

I think often they are so disturbed by their own feeling, that it triggers even MORE feeling... .and then the whole mess snowballs into a warp vortex of unleashing feeling that frightens themselves.  So if you can early on find a way to say that feeling is ok,  I accept and am comfortable with you feeling (not someone I want to reject for feeling) then this helps them to tolerate the experience and you may actually soothe them before they frighten themselves.  It seems like you have to be a role model for managing uncomfortable feelings!  (but HERS!)

The tricky part is that if you accidentally hear incorrectly... .it can backfire.  If she is sad and you are letting her know that feeling angry is ok and you love her... .she will be pissed and react emotional to being heard wrong.

Anything else... .pretty much is invalidating.  Actual facts... .are invalidating... .as they are irrelevant to her "facts" which is what she is feeling, unless of course you are providing actual facts to relate and prove her "facts" to be worthwhile.

Ok... .I'm dizzy!

NM... .I can not say this concisly!  My head is spinning! LOL!

my head has just fallen off ! Lol !

Ok so I'm feeling I have to be a professor of some description to figure this out .

Is no contact just an easier option ? What is the point in treading on these very fragile eggshells , to try and validate untruths ? 

My own sanity has fallen out of my head , and it is so soul destroying to agree that these delusions are real !

Ignoring her I think is cruel , but does my sanity equate to anything ? Am I being a rescuer and fuelling her fire ! ?

The thought of her struggling is not nice , but I'm at the point where I can't do wrong for right !

I have not had contact with her since Thursday morning , where she was asking if she walks away like I have does that make her love BS? She said if it was real love I wouldn't walk away .

Asking me if she gets professional help to sort her head , who will sort her heart ? She said do I get some woman to sort it ?

I responded with " I don't know about we sort the heart bit , I'm in the dark "

I got no response .

The only thing of the tiniest Connection left is her on my game centre . This sounds silly but I'm getting in a panic about deleting her from it as she will deem this as me reacting and nudging her emotions .

Do I just leave her on there ?

Do you find you slowly begin to let go for your own sakes ?

I'm at that point but don't want to rattle her cage !


I've just found my head !

Thanks again for all your help .

X

[Lu Lu]

When feelings equal facts it can be rough sledding when those feelings flip flop, rapidly changing direction.  I commend those who try to make it work.  I couldn't do it.

I'm seeing your point very clearly .  I don't think I can do this any more .

I've just got to leave it and re build myself and recover from four years of complete s***!

I can't help someone who can't help themselves .

Did you let go in the end ?

[blissful_camper]

When feelings equal facts it can be rough sledding when those feelings flip flop, rapidly changing direction.  I commend those who try to make it work.  I couldn't do it.

I'm seeing your point very clearly .  I don't think I can do this any more .

I've just got to leave it and re build myself and recover from four years of complete s***!

I can't help someone who can't help themselves .

Did you let go in the end ?

It's okay to take time for yourself to reflect on your own needs and direction. 

Further down the road you may feel that you gained valuable insight and life-skills from your experience that will serve you well.  Yes, you did the best that you could.  Now it's up to your significant other to help themselves. 

Yes, I let go in the end.  I didn't want to be the face of his shame and pain anymore.  I didn't want to play a role in his disorder.  For me, I felt that it was healthier for him (and me) to remove myself from the dynamic the disorder sadly cultivated.  I'm two years out this summer.  The journey was painful but well worth it.   

[Lucky Jim]

I felt that it was healthier for him (and me) to remove myself from the dynamic the disorder sadly cultivated.  I'm two years out this summer.  The journey was painful but well worth it.   

Same here.  The dynamic was unhealthy all around, and finally I had to throw in the towel.  Healthier for our kids not to have parents in constant conflict.  Healthier for me to live my life w/o walking on eggshells and being a lightening rod for BPDxW's rage.  Healthier for my Ex to have the person who frequently triggered her (me) out of the picture (Hard to say what is healthier for her?).

I'm out four & half years.  Rough ride, as BC notes, but better than the alternative.

LuckyJim

[2014]

Not only do I think it is impossible for the non to do anything correct in the eyes of the borderline during devaluation, you might find yourself in a situation where you are castigated for doing the very thing she had in the past asked you to do.

So, for example, I would be told that it was essential to her happiness that when she has a problem or difficulty, that I refrain from trying to help her or solve the problem with her, but instead merely empathize with "Oh, that's so crazy."  Then, while she is devaluing me and the relationship, I would be admonished for responding to her problems with "Oh, that's so crazy" INSTEAD OF trying to solve the problem for her.  This is a real example.  I could go on with the "Why are you doing the terrible things that I've asked you to do?" examples but I won't.  

I think it's important to keep in mind that these people (I'm sorry if it sounds like I am objectifying them) are just two steps away from schizophrenics in terms of their craziness.  I'm comfortable using the term.  My T (an esteemed, widely published, and highly respected person in the profession) is comfortable using the term, and drilled that reality into me for a month before I saw he is right.  

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships.  

Thank you for this 

[goateeki]

Not only do I think it is impossible for the non to do anything correct in the eyes of the borderline during devaluation, you might find yourself in a situation where you are castigated for doing the very thing she had in the past asked you to do.

So, for example, I would be told that it was essential to her happiness that when she has a problem or difficulty, that I refrain from trying to help her or solve the problem with her, but instead merely empathize with "Oh, that's so crazy."  Then, while she is devaluing me and the relationship, I would be admonished for responding to her problems with "Oh, that's so crazy" INSTEAD OF trying to solve the problem for her.  This is a real example.  I could go on with the "Why are you doing the terrible things that I've asked you to do?" examples but I won't.  

I think it's important to keep in mind that these people (I'm sorry if it sounds like I am objectifying them) are just two steps away from schizophrenics in terms of their craziness.  I'm comfortable using the term.  My T (an esteemed, widely published, and highly respected person in the profession) is comfortable using the term, and drilled that reality into me for a month before I saw he is right.  

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships.  

Thank you for this 

If it helps you see things differently, in a healthy and helpful way, then I am happy.  My T has been very helpful to me, asking me for descriptions of interactions between myself and my ex (he is a cognitive behavioral therapist) and I have come to see that what he sought to "correct" or "improve" in me is my wrong belief that all of the behavior that I was subjected to could be rationalized, explained or tolerated.  He compared me to a woman who is physically abused by her husband or boyfriend, telling me that the behavior is somewhat different but the dynamic was identical.  It took a very long time to accept this.  One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

[goateeki]

I felt that it was healthier for him (and me) to remove myself from the dynamic the disorder sadly cultivated.  I'm two years out this summer.  The journey was painful but well worth it.   

Same here.  The dynamic was unhealthy all around, and finally I had to throw in the towel.  Healthier for our kids not to have parents in constant conflict.  Healthier for me to live my life w/o walking on eggshells and being a lightening rod for BPDxW's rage.  Healthier for my Ex to have the person who frequently triggered her (me) out of the picture (Hard to say what is healthier for her?).

I'm out four & half years.  Rough ride, as BC notes, but better than the alternative.

LuckyJim

Lucky Jim, I tip my hat to you.  I think that these are some of the hardest things we can do, especially when there are kids involved.

[Mutt]

One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

I think it is important to understand the behaviors of a pwBPD because it helps to depersonalize the behaviors. It took time and two years later I don't take my exe's behaviors personal ( i.e. devaluation, projections ) and it's not about me. I also think that people don't really change is an over-generalization. Nothing changes without change.

[goateeki]

One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

I think it is important to understand the behaviors of a pwBPD because it helps to depersonalize the behaviors. It took time and two years later I don't take my exe's behaviors personal ( i.e. devaluation, projections ) and it's not about me. I also think that people don't really change is an over-generalization. Nothing changes without change.

I think that the distinction I should have made is this: We try to understand, and in understanding also tend to excuse.  And in excusing (or ignoring, or justifying), we can remain in bad situations.  I think that we nons are drawn to these people for a certain reason, and it has to do with our own makeup.  I think that we understand the borderline's behavior, or try to, and chalk it up to some terrible event (or events) that befell the borderline, and has made them what they are now, and then we feel sorry for them, and accommodate them more and more.  So, sure... .understanding of all things is great.  But we live with behaviors, and we nons have a hard time drawing the line at bad behavior, and for us, understanding can be a kind of slippery slope that just causes us to stay in a relationship that is harmful for us.  As Octave said in Rules of the Game, "The truly terrible thing about life is that everybody has their reasons."  This takes on special meaning when a non is dealing with a borderline. 

I am certain my view was always "She's an adult.  At some point she's going to realize that this sort of thing is destructive and juvenile and change."  She never did, and I had to divorce her.

This is convoluted stuff, for sure. 

[enlighten me]

I think as long as you know your limitations then knowing the cause of the behaviour can help with detatching. Having read all I have I believe BPD to be genetic and thrrefore not something I can fix as im not a neurosurgeon or geneticist.

Its like trying to fix your car engine if you have no mechanical skills. You just end up wasting time and monet and probably make things worse.

[Sunfl0wer]

One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

I think it is important to understand the behaviors of a pwBPD because it helps to depersonalize the behaviors. It took time and two years later I don't take my exe's behaviors personal ( i.e. devaluation, projections ) and it's not about me. I also think that people don't really change is an over-generalization. Nothing changes without change.

I think that the distinction I should have made is this: We try to understand, and in understanding also tend to excuse.  And in excusing (or ignoring, or justifying), we can remain in bad situations.  I think that we nons are drawn to these people for a certain reason, and it has to do with our own makeup.  I think that we understand the borderline's behavior, or try to, and chalk it up to some terrible event (or events) that befell the borderline, and has made them what they are now, and then we feel sorry for them, and accommodate them more and more.  So, sure... .understanding of all things is great.  But we live with behaviors, and we nons have a hard time drawing the line at bad behavior, and for us, understanding can be a kind of slippery slope that just causes us to stay in a relationship that is harmful for us.  As Octave said in Rules of the Game, "The truly terrible thing about life is that everybody has their reasons."  This takes on special meaning when a non is dealing with a borderline. 

I am certain my view was always "She's an adult.  At some point she's going to realize that this sort of thing is destructive and juvenile and change."  She never did, and I had to divorce her.

This is convoluted stuff, for sure. 

Thank you for this... .

Hearing the words for my experience is very validating to me.

Exactly what happened for me.

I relate to the lesson around here... .I forget which one... .  but it is about how we try to makes logical sense of what is going on... .and somehow... .in doing so... .we shift our expectations slightly... .shift our needs slightly... .  and this continues.

[blissful_camper]

One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

I think it is important to understand the behaviors of a pwBPD because it helps to depersonalize the behaviors. It took time and two years later I don't take my exe's behaviors personal ( i.e. devaluation, projections ) and it's not about me. I also think that people don't really change is an over-generalization. Nothing changes without change.

I think that the distinction I should have made is this: We try to understand, and in understanding also tend to excuse.  And in excusing (or ignoring, or justifying), we can remain in bad situations.  I think that we nons are drawn to these people for a certain reason, and it has to do with our own makeup.  I think that we understand the borderline's behavior, or try to, and chalk it up to some terrible event (or events) that befell the borderline, and has made them what they are now, and then we feel sorry for them, and accommodate them more and more.  So, sure... .understanding of all things is great.  But we live with behaviors, and we nons have a hard time drawing the line at bad behavior, and for us, understanding can be a kind of slippery slope that just causes us to stay in a relationship that is harmful for us.  As Octave said in Rules of the Game, "The truly terrible thing about life is that everybody has their reasons."  This takes on special meaning when a non is dealing with a borderline.  

I am certain my view was always "She's an adult.  At some point she's going to realize that this sort of thing is destructive and juvenile and change."  She never did, and I had to divorce her.

This is convoluted stuff, for sure.  

I'm two years out of the r/s this summer and I look back at the experience with gratitude.  I pulled some really important life lessons from my experiences with my ex.  I feel that I was drawn to him because I was ready to do the self-work that I needed to do, work that I had ignored for most of my adult life.  Without him or my experiences with him I may not have turned as deeply inward to examine, explore, and better understand my issues.  (Still a work in progress)

Edit:  My choice to have a relationship with my ex was a destructive one on my part.  It was destructive for me (and him) because being his partner meant that I was playing a role and contributing to his disorder. 

[Yolo]

This may seem a little odd, but for some reason this thread helped me to recall a dynamic that is truly bizarre. 

I feel Im generally quite skilled in communication and highly sensitive and empathetic.  During devaluation, I'd have to agree, there is very little that can be done actively to reverse it.  But, upon thinking back... .there were a few times in as many years during devaluation he'd acted in such a disrespectful way I became unglued.  Not myself and really snapped.  Now, I don't think I ever got personal but I would uncharacteristically toss as many choice 4 letter words and vulgarity around and stoop to a very immature level of even telling him I hated him.

In retrospect, a very odd thing happened. When I regressed to his level emotionally... .he seemed to get the picture that I was as serious as a heart attack.  Perhaps all of my calm / adult attempts to reason appeared inauthentic or boring to him based on his history and it was only when I devolved to very basal emotional level (immature) he got it. 

Certainly not advocating this as an a approach because what kind of life it is to relate to someone at such an angry level. Not a life I was willing to live with, but let me tell you, it caused him pause. (again tho, I didn't normally beget anger with anger, that may have worked because it was not my normal reaction... .or it worked because that was what he was accustomed to relating to... .either way, not my cup of tea)

[Lucky Jim]

Certainly not advocating this as an a approach because what kind of life it is to relate to someone at such an angry level. Not a life I was willing to live with, but let me tell you, it caused him pause. (again tho, I didn't normally beget anger with anger, that may have worked because it was not my normal reaction... .or it worked because that was what he was accustomed to relating to... .either way, not my cup of tea)

I did the same, stooped to my BPDxW's level and unleashed a torrent of vulgar words, which is not my style.  On some level, I suspect this is what my BPDxW desired, so that she could play the victim and point at my bad behavior.  After fighting fire with fire, I switched to detachment.

After detaching, I was no longer willing to share my emotions with my Ex, and it was all over but the shouting in terms of our marriage.

LuckyJim

P.S.  Thanks, goateeki.

[Mike-X]

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