Letting go with love

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

This is where I’m at. It’s who I am. I realized why I’m having such a hard time with actually moving forward and that’s because I need to let him go…let us go…let the ‘dream’ go….with love. I’m a being filled with love and to try to deny myself this is wrong. I am who I am.

I’ve been focused on the negative, the bad, the ugly…and trying to use that as fuel to move this mountain. But, the reality is that I do love him and always will love him. For all the wonderful good that he is. I always care about him and want the best for him…and that’s good. He will always be part of my family and part of my life and part of who I am.

The thing is that I’ve put myself last in my life. I know I’ve done this for a long long time. I’ve taught everyone around me (including him) that I come last. I have slowly been working towards changing that…I’m realizing that I’ve been growing and changing as and individual…becoming more healthy and I find that to continue to follow that path I need to make a choice. More than one, some hard choices. this is one of them. Him or me? Lol, simple as that.

I’m who I am. I can’t and won’t be hateful…even tho he’s been hateful to me…I will love him and pray for him while walking my path towards being a healthy woman.

[Danie14]

This is where I’m at. It’s who I am. I realized why I’m having such a hard time with actually moving forward and that’s because I need to let him go…let us go…let the ‘dream’ go….with love. I’m a being filled with love and to try to deny myself this is wrong. I am who I am.

I’ve been focused on the negative, the bad, the ugly…and trying to use that as fuel to move this mountain. But, the reality is that I do love him and always will love him. For all the wonderful good that he is. I always care about him and want the best for him…and that’s good. He will always be part of my family and part of my life and part of who I am.

The thing is that I’ve put myself last in my life. I know I’ve done this for a long long time. I’ve taught everyone around me (including him) that I come last. I have slowly been working towards changing that…I’m realizing that I’ve been growing and changing as and individual…becoming more healthy and I find that to continue to follow that path I need to make a choice. More than one, some hard choices. this is one of them. Him or me? Lol, simple as that.

I’m who I am. I can’t and won’t be hateful…even tho he’s been hateful to me…I will love him and pray for him while walking my path towards being a healthy woman.

[valet]

This is a really nice realization Danie. It will help you more forward in a healthy way, I think.

I too caught myself thinking this just yesterday. Like, why am I fighting so hard against my own ability to love? Is it not acceptable to love a person, but also let go of that hope?

The thing that I have learned, BPD or not, is that we shouldn't ever compromise on our own ability to care. When people go through breakups they seem so hell bent on 'just forgetting' everything. I don't think that this is healthy behavior, and will inevitably slow the healing process until it stops dead in its own tracks.

Forgetting =/= accepting; Knowledge =/= understanding

These are the ideas that we need to keep in mind.

[Achaya]

This is where I’m at. It’s who I am. I realized why I’m having such a hard time with actually moving forward and that’s because I need to let him go…let us go…let the ‘dream’ go….with love. I’m a being filled with love and to try to deny myself this is wrong. I am who I am.

I’ve been focused on the negative, the bad, the ugly…and trying to use that as fuel to move this mountain. But, the reality is that I do love him and always will love him. For all the wonderful good that he is. I always care about him and want the best for him…and that’s good. He will always be part of my family and part of my life and part of who I am.

The thing is that I’ve put myself last in my life. I know I’ve done this for a long long time. I’ve taught everyone around me (including him) that I come last. I have slowly been working towards changing that…I’m realizing that I’ve been growing and changing as and individual…becoming more healthy and I find that to continue to follow that path I need to make a choice. More than one, some hard choices. this is one of them. Him or me? Lol, simple as that.

I’m who I am. I can’t and won’t be hateful…even tho he’s been hateful to me…I will love him and pray for him while walking my path towards being a healthy woman.

My partner left me in an abrupt and cruel way, but I worked really hard to stay in a loving place during out final conversations. I am so glad I was able to pull it off, and my ex met me half way with that, so I have no regrets at all about how we said good-bye.

I have noticed myself feeling shame about the fact that I am still in love and still emotionally in the relationship, 5 weeks out from the breakup. For the first couple weeks I felt really humiliated, like my ex was the winner with all the options, no doubt headed for a new partner within weeks, if not already with one. I was obsessed with whatever she might be feeling about the breakup, like was she hurting as much as I was, or was she ever really in love with me at all. I realized within the last couple of weeks that the depth of my grief is the measure of my capacity to love and to attach in the normal way. Her inability to attach is tragic, and if she does skip the grieving somehow, she wot be able to attach to the next person either. When I get through this, I will be detached from her and be able to love and attach to someone else. I actually feel bad for her now, to the extent that she was able to "step out of this relationship" (her words) and walk away without paying the price.

[Danie14]

That's an interesting thought. My husband was fresh out of a horrible marriage (his POV, never met or spoke with her) when he and I started dating. He spoke so badly about her and still does to this day. I told him many years ago that I'm sick of paying for her mistakes... .yea... .and when I think about what you just wrote... .yea... .our relationship has never been able to get past a certain point and that maybe why... .because he's never let go of her or that relationship. He cheated on me years ago and has never been able to let go of that chick either... .ruminates about her, I now he does... .anyway, long story short. He's never let these people go and our relationship cannot move past this point because of it... .

[jhkbuzz]

I am 9 months post b/u and have been thinking about this topic as well... .the fact that my ex was emotionally abusive doesn't lessen residual feelings of love I have for her - for the parts of the r/s that were good.  None of this means that I would ever re-enter the r/s; I understand too much about each of us to re-engage. I'm sad sometimes but not wishing for "the way things used to be."

I think that the biggest part of the struggle for me is wondering whether the fact that I can still feel love for someone who abusive (chronic lying, infidelities) is normal.  Don't most people who are abused finally recognize the abusive behavior and and allow THAT understanding to change their feelings?  Do I really simply have a big heart that is able to love... .or is there something unhealthy that keeps me "bonded" to someone who was destructive to me?

[valet]

I am 9 months post b/u and have been thinking about this topic as well... .the fact that my ex was emotionally abusive doesn't lessen residual feelings of love I have for her - for the parts of the r/s that were good.  None of this means that I would ever re-enter the r/s; I understand too much about each of us to re-engage. I'm sad sometimes but not wishing for "the way things used to be."

I think that the biggest part of the struggle for me is wondering whether the fact that I can still feel love for someone who abusive (chronic lying, infidelities) is normal.  :)on't most people who are abused finally recognize the abusive behavior and and allow THAT understanding to change their feelings?  :)o I really simply have a big heart that is able to love... .or is there something unhealthy that keeps me "bonded" to someone who was destructive to me?

Hey jhkbuzz, I don't think that there's anything wrong with still loving someone despite what they have said or done.

You saw both sides.

This is, in my viewpoint, a wonderful way to understand the natural balance of the world and people's behavior. It is almost the opposite of black and white thinking, knowing that you don't want something anymore, but still loving and appreciating what it gave you when you did. This is probably why our pwBPD chose us. We exhibited a basic personality trait that they could never bring themselves.

These are happy thoughts to me. I don't know what my relationship will be like with my ex in the future, but I do know what it was like in the past. I appreciate both the good and bad parts. This understanding is what ultimately determines our ability to accept and forgive. And ultimately, to heal completely from our wounds.

Maybe these thoughts are misguided, but I'm not one to judge a book by it's cover.

A pwBPD might have a poorly designed cover, but until you read the story inside you have no idea how, at times, your effort was worth it.

[ZeusRLX]

I think that the biggest part of the struggle for me is wondering whether the fact that I can still feel love for someone who abusive (chronic lying, infidelities) is normal.  :)on't most people who are abused finally recognize the abusive behavior and and allow THAT understanding to change their feelings?  :)o I really simply have a big heart that is able to love... .or is there something unhealthy that keeps me "bonded" to someone who was destructive to me?

I have gone through that telling myself that "I will always love her" in the first two years after the break up.

But as time went by and I learned more about life and people and BPD specifically... .the point of view changed.

And I learned that I will NOT always love her. Now that I think of it... .the words "I will always love you" were proven to be false with time every single time I have said them and every single time they were said to me (outside of my parents and family, of course). I'm probably just unlucky but that's my experience.

It was some kind of grandiose fantasy escape type of thing, the kind you see in movies and that's what made it so attractive.

When she wrote to me years later attempting to recycle I told her to take a hike and was pretty much indifferent to her. I did talk to her to see if she changed and she hasn't. Only the way I view her has.

I realized that our relationship was not healthy and her disorder is very destructive and I must keep her as far away as I can and my continued focus on her perpetuates my problems.

I have said that I will always love her and some others too quite often in first 3-4 years after the first breakup.

After the change. I'm completely indifferent. I don't know if this is helpful or not, just my experience with this.

[cosmonaut]

I think that the biggest part of the struggle for me is wondering whether the fact that I can still feel love for someone who abusive (chronic lying, infidelities) is normal.  Don't most people who are abused finally recognize the abusive behavior and and allow THAT understanding to change their feelings?  Do I really simply have a big heart that is able to love... .or is there something unhealthy that keeps me "bonded" to someone who was destructive to me?

Yes, it's quite normal.  The reason people often stay with abusive partners is because at some level they do love them, or at least the romanticized view of them.  This is often true even in cases of horrible domestic violence.  The most insidious aspect of DV and other abuse is that it happens in families; it comes from people we loved and trusted.  It is not at all uncommon for abusive survivors, BPD involved or not, to return to their abusive partners either.  Some of this may have other root causes, often FOO.  However, many people that have suffered abusive relationships self report that they did so because they loved their partner and wanted to believe that they were sorry or could change.


Edit:  Also, letting go with love isn't only possible, it's the best way.  We can love our partners and still wish them all the best and hope that they may someday overcome their disorder.  My ex was not abusive, and I'm not sure how that might change the dynamic since it's not what I experienced.  I still have so much love for her.  I want her to be well and I want her to be happy.  Even if we can never be together.  If you love someone, set them free.

[myself]

One of the last times my ex tried contacting me, she wanted me to tell her that I didn't hate her. At that point we hadn't spoken in about a year, and I didn't feel like starting again, but if I would have responded I would have said I loved her too much to ever feel that negatively about her (despite her dishonesty and abuse, which the bigger picture shows was in part due to disordered reactions to her own internal chaos). I know she just wanted me to soothe her and say it's alright, but I also felt like she didn't really know me if she could even wonder if I hated her or not. It was about as close to an admission of guilt as she'll ever offer, which in a way helped me detach even more. I still have moments where I wish her well, but none where I wish her harm. It sucks to let go with love instead of live it together though.

[jhkbuzz]

You know, I just realized that the "residual feelings of love" aren't what bother me.  I embrace the Christian ideals of love, selflessness, forgiveness (even though I often fall short), and I hope to detach with love - that's what I've wanted all along. What actually bothers me is that if she were to come back into my life for any reason, I'm not sure I would be able to protect myself (emotionally) the way that I should because I still have those "residual feelings of love." I think I could get "pulled back in" - not into a sexual relationship, but in some sort of way that might be emotionally destructive to me nevertheless.  And that bothers me - I don't understand, after everything that happened in the r/s, why I don't have more of an instinct towards self-preservation.  I'm usually pretty analytical and strong minded.

[Achaya]

You know, I just realized that the "residual feelings of love" aren't what bother me.  I embrace the Christian ideals of love, selflessness, forgiveness (even though I often fall short), and I hope to detach with love - that's what I've wanted all along. What actually bothers me is that if she were to come back into my life for any reason, I'm not sure I would be able to protect myself (emotionally) the way that I should because I still have those "residual feelings of love." I think I could get "pulled back in" - not into a sexual relationship, but in some sort of way that might be emotionally destructive to me nevertheless.  And that bothers me - I don't understand, after everything that happened in the r/s, why I don't have more of an instinct towards self-preservation.  I'm usually pretty analytical and strong minded.

Regarding the issue of why people don't protect themselves adequately against partner abuse, I think there is more than "love" involved, although I agree with Cosmonaut that this is the reason given most often for staying with an abusive partner. People who stay with abusive partners or have serial abusive relationships (like I do) have an automatic compartmentalized system for maintaining an All Good image of the abuser.

When the abuser is actually showing loving, non-abusive behavior s/he is seen positively, and the partner sees her/himself either as Good and Deserving, or Inadequate and Not Deserving. That is, the love and kindness of the abusive partner is perceived as a gift in either case, not something that is expected and deserved by the recipient.

When the abuser is hateful or unavailable, the partner may temporarily perceive the abuser as Bad and talk to friends about ending the relationship, but generally the person does not want this to happen and hopes the abuser will do something to enable her to justify staying. When the heat of the anger passes, it generally doesn't take much for the abused partner to flip into the space where the partner is seen as Good. To do this, the one who was receiving abuse "forgets" (dissociates) some or all of the perceptions, feelings and thoughts that went on during the abuse. To see the partner as All Good, however, the abused person also has to condemn the self as deserving the abuse.

This is why the recycling happens so easily in couples who have this interlock. The abused partner is highly motivated to sustain the relationship. The abuser can't or won't change her/his behavior, so the abused partner has to adjust her perceptions. The adjustment enables both partners to see the abuser in a positive light most of the time, but the abused partner takes the self-esteem hit.

This is an automatic process in people who have been raised in abusive homes. I am one of these people, and I do not yet know how to stop doing this. One thing I have found helpful is to map out the images of myself and my partner as they exist in the separated compartments (when the abuse is happening, when the reconciliation is happening, when the relationship is uneventful) along with the emotions I am experiencing with each set of images. It sounds complicated but it has helped me make sense out of how I switch so quickly from holding my partner accountable to "forgive and forget." The solution also seems to involve continuing to address my partner's bad behavior when we are in the All Good compartment. I stopped doing this during my last relationship because my partner would become defensive and nasty and withdraw, or threaten to leave me because I didn't see her the way she preferred to be seen. This behavior not the part of the abuser creates the illusion that the other person is starting fights out of nowhere, "carrying a grudge," etc. It can easily feel to the abused person like she is responsible for the conflict in the relationship and for the partner leaving during the Good times. To the extent I wasn't willing to risk the relationship when times were good (my partner's Bad was more tolerable or absent) I stopped integrating information about the bad times into the (false) image of the All Good Partner and All Good Relationship.

Some people on these boards have stated they had loving families with no abuse that could account for why they put up with it as adults. I would suggest that if you have been raised to think that you should be selfless, you might question how that affected your "self-esteem." It is not possible to have real self-esteem if you deny your self room to exist. I do know, however, that it is possible to hold an All Good image of oneself under these conditions, because that is exactly what I did. I felt as good as I could feel about myself as a sort of slave, whose existence was all for others. Servants get paid for their work and can take some pride in what they do; slaves have no choice, their selfless service is compulsory. If you are selfless, whom are you serving? Why do they deserve that service more than you? Are you thinking that they will also try to be selfless and give to you without conditions? How has that worked out for you?

[Olivia_D]

Danie, I am hoping to get back to that place one of these days.  I am usually very forgiving and let go with love.  I have had difficulty throughout my life allowing myself to feel any form of anger.  Right now, I am angry and that is a rarity. I do not want to get locked into that anger or become a bitter person at all.  I sincerely doubt that will happen but right now I am in the mad stage.  It is my goal to work through these phases of grieving / loss and come out whole without any lingering upset associated with him.  One of the last things that I said to him was that I would pray for him and hoped that he would find peace within himself one day.  I was being absolutely sincere so I am hoping that my current state of mad is merely part of the grieving phase as I do not want this experience to hurt me long term.  I am praying that this will all pass and that this hurt and pain is temporary.  Right now, I feel stuck.

[tortuga]

. . .  The abused partner is highly motivated to sustain the relationship. The abuser can't or won't change her/his behavior, so the abused partner has to adjust her perceptions. The adjustment enables both partners to see the abuser in a positive light most of the time, but the abused partner takes the self-esteem hit.

This is an automatic process in people who have been raised in abusive homes.  . . .

Yes.

And it's not only prevalent in "recycling" - it's also a factor when we meet new people and develop new relationships.

My T says that "it is the relationship style that we find comfortable"

I often find myself in a "state" of feeling comfortable, and feeling as if I can sustain the relationship (for now).  Then, every once in a while, uBPDw does something - that reminds me EXACTLY why I can't stay with her "long term".  I have to actually tell myself; "remember that she did this, and this is what she does, and this is the kind of thing that violates my boundaries that I have clearly set with her, and she will keep doing these things as long as I permit it."

And then time passes, and that feeling begins to fade.  Until she does it again.

[jhkbuzz]

You know, I just realized that the "residual feelings of love" aren't what bother me.  I embrace the Christian ideals of love, selflessness, forgiveness (even though I often fall short), and I hope to detach with love - that's what I've wanted all along. What actually bothers me is that if she were to come back into my life for any reason, I'm not sure I would be able to protect myself (emotionally) the way that I should because I still have those "residual feelings of love." I think I could get "pulled back in" - not into a sexual relationship, but in some sort of way that might be emotionally destructive to me nevertheless.  And that bothers me - I don't understand, after everything that happened in the r/s, why I don't have more of an instinct towards self-preservation.  I'm usually pretty analytical and strong minded.

Regarding the issue of why people don't protect themselves adequately against partner abuse, I think there is more than "love" involved, although I agree with Cosmonaut that this is the reason given most often for staying with an abusive partner. People who stay with abusive partners or have serial abusive relationships (like I do) have an automatic compartmentalized system for maintaining an All Good image of the abuser.

When the abuser is actually showing loving, non-abusive behavior s/he is seen positively, and the partner sees her/himself either as Good and Deserving, or Inadequate and Not Deserving. That is, the love and kindness of the abusive partner is perceived as a gift in either case, not something that is expected and deserved by the recipient.

When the abuser is hateful or unavailable, the partner may temporarily perceive the abuser as Bad and talk to friends about ending the relationship, but generally the person does not want this to happen and hopes the abuser will do something to enable her to justify staying. When the heat of the anger passes, it generally doesn't take much for the abused partner to flip into the space where the partner is seen as Good. To do this, the one who was receiving abuse "forgets" (dissociates) some or all of the perceptions, feelings and thoughts that went on during the abuse. To see the partner as All Good, however, the abused person also has to condemn the self as deserving the abuse... .This is an automatic process in people who have been raised in abusive homes.

I've never really thought about this... .but this had to be exactly what happened with my (often raging) mother... .I learned how to put aside the "bad" so I could continue to love her. I never thought of it as dissociation though. I suppose it was.

Some people on these boards have stated they had loving families with no abuse that could account for why they put up with it as adults. I would suggest that if you have been raised to think that you should be selfless, you might question how that affected your "self-esteem." It is not possible to have real self-esteem if you deny your self room to exist. I do know, however, that it is possible to hold an All Good image of oneself under these conditions, because that is exactly what I did. I felt as good as I could feel about myself as a sort of slave, whose existence was all for others. Servants get paid for their work and can take some pride in what they do; slaves have no choice, their selfless service is compulsory. If you are selfless, whom are you serving? Why do they deserve that service more than you? Are you thinking that they will also try to be selfless and give to you without conditions? How has that worked out for you?

As someone who embraces Christian ideals, I believe that love, selflessness and forgiveness are to be admired. I'm not a people pleaser (in fact, I'm the opposite and have had to work at being kinder and gentler); I'm not a doormat; I can say "no"; I don't have a difficult time speaking my mind. I've often thought that if anyone needs to be a Christian it's me - just to balance out the abrasive New Yorker in me! It's not a value system that I want to change.

I've not been codependent or abused like this in any other relationship; I did have one r/s about 20 years ago that was questionable, but it lasted less than a year and never truly got off the ground. I've had other normal r/s's - not many, but I have.  What confounds me the most as I dig deeper into examining this r/s is that, although my ex and my mother are nothing alike, my ex triggered all sorts of (unhealthy) coping mechanisms in me that I think I used with my mother in my childhood - or that I saw modeled in my parents r/s.

[jhkbuzz]

. . .  The abused partner is highly motivated to sustain the relationship. The abuser can't or won't change her/his behavior, so the abused partner has to adjust her perceptions. The adjustment enables both partners to see the abuser in a positive light most of the time, but the abused partner takes the self-esteem hit.

This is an automatic process in people who have been raised in abusive homes.  . . .

Yes.

And it's not only prevalent in "recycling" - it's also a factor when we meet new people and develop new relationships.

My T says that "it is the relationship style that we find comfortable"

I often find myself in a "state" of feeling comfortable, and feeling as if I can sustain the relationship (for now).  Then, every once in a while, uBPDw does something - that reminds me EXACTLY why I can't stay with her "long term".  I have to actually tell myself; "remember that she did this, and this is what she does, and this is the kind of thing that violates my boundaries that I have clearly set with her, and she will keep doing these things as long as I permit it."

And then time passes, and that feeling begins to fade.  Until she does it again.

YES! It's like I had/have amnesia or something.  It's the strangest thing I've ever experienced. And it's exactly what makes me fearful that I would be unable to protect myself (emotionally) if I ever allowed my ex back into my life. I seem to 'forget' what she's done.

[Danie14]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I really appreciate all of it. I totally understand the temporary amnesia thoughts... .i have that all the time. I also do the "remember that THIS is who & how he really is" and I wonder why I am the way I am. One of my girl friends told me once that my he uses my compassion against me. Idk maybe I use it against myself.

When I look back at my life I see a lot good some bad & some downright ugly... .& I have participated in all of it. I didn't instigate it but I participated. I see a lot of good... .really mostly good... .love laughter joy... .all surrounded by this darkness... .the bad was... .is... .always very near. I see our babies growing into children & now young adults... .I see him & I loving crazy love... .always whipping from one extreme to the next... .always soom crisis to overcome... .& we are strong! Omg we are so strong... .but where does that strength come from? Surviving all the stupid drama filled battles... .exhausting... .

I grew up in a very small loving quiet non-drama filled family... .our dysfunction was not talking about the taboo stuff... .my dad was a hardworking single parent raising two kids on his own... .he worked a lot & gambled (small time) but was gone a lot... .I took care of us of me... .my dad used to tell me " you never have to do anything you don't want to do" & that rings true in every other aspect of my life except this one area of leaving my h... .

I want to leave for the right reasons but I also don't want to breakup my kids family... .& I'm starting to think that we will always be family... .always... .but just maybe not in the traditional sense of the word... .

[Achaya]

I've not been codependent or abused like this in any other relationship; I did have one r/s about 20 years ago that was questionable, but it lasted less than a year and never truly got off the ground. I've had other normal r/s's - not many, but I have.  What confounds me the most as I dig deeper into examining this r/s is that, although my ex and my mother are nothing alike, my ex triggered all sorts of (unhealthy) coping mechanisms in me that I think I used with my mother in my childhood - or that I saw modeled in my parents r/s.

I have been wondering if one of my parents had BPD, because I obviously can dance really well with people who do. Now that I have looked at that, I think that probably neither of my parents would qualify for that diagnosis. My father was an episodic alcohol abuser when I was a child, and he did have the Jekyll and Hyde thing going on. I also think that both of my parents were so deprived and abused as kids that they were desperate for love, nurturing, mirroring and safety, and they used me as a surrogate parent. They weren't able to love me or be emotionally available to me on my terms, as opposed to the terms dictated by their neediness. Between the role reversals and the splitting of my father's personality, I got a thorough education in how to relate to deeply wounded people.

In addition to repeating the kinds of relationships I had with my parents, I am also seeing how in my last relationship I replicated my mother's relationship with my father.

I do think, however, that pwBPDs have a disproportionately powerful impact on how their relationships evolve. My ex told me that the pattern of deterioration in our relationship exactly matches what transpired in her previous relationships. Since she told me that, I have begun to see exactly what she did to make that happen via communications consisting of opposite messages: E.g, "Yes, I want to talk to you, but I am not reaching out for support. I shouldn't want to talk to you. This isn't easy for me to handle alone, even though I'm sure you think that it is." HUH?  What I used to do with these kinds of communications would be to ignore the push away messages and pursue my ex to get her to talk to me. What I think now that I should have done instead would be to call her attention to the mixed messages and ask her to clarify which one she wanted to send. That was her responsibility, not mine to figure out. My responsibility was to refrain from acting on the message I most wanted to hear until I found out what was real--the one I wanted, the one I didn't want, or all of the above.

They don't give lessons in school on how to protect yourself in situations like this. I wish they did. I am beginning to see that there are some ways to do that, if a person is willing to look at everything someone is communicating, instead of filtering it according to what is most desired.

[Sunfl0wer]

That's an interesting thought. My husband was fresh out of a horrible marriage (his POV, never met or spoke with her) when he and I started dating. He spoke so badly about her and still does to this day. I told him many years ago that I'm sick of paying for her mistakes... .yea... .and when I think about what you just wrote... .yea... .our relationship has never been able to get past a certain point and that maybe why... .because he's never let go of her or that relationship. He cheated on me years ago and has never been able to let go of that chick either... .ruminates about her, I now he does... .anyway, long story short. He's never let these people go and our relationship cannot move past this point because of it... .

I was reading through this thread and had to stop short here.

I have always felt, since the beginning of our r/s, that my SO was first connected with his ex... .before myself.

I have always felt that he saw himself as "the divorced H" "the victim of his exW".  I thought that over time, he would grow to see himself in our future more clearly.  This never happened. 

While he never easily spoke a bad word about her, he is not the type to talk bad about anyone much really... .(he was in terrible denial... .Mr. Happy Narcissist)  I always sensed her presence as a grey cloud over our r/s... .like a balloon... .to which he was holding the string... .or rather, she had tied a bow into to string around his wrist so he wouldn't let her float away and off into the distance.

I handed him scissors, I offered to cut... .  He felt threatened by this... .like I wanted to sever who he is/was.

His role in life was always "her ex" before he was "our partnership."

That is a huge reason why we are not together.  He was more comfortable in the role of the victim of his divorce than he was in the role of the partner of our r/s and leader of our family.

[Hawk Ridge]

This thread is helpful as I work towards more forgiveness and understanding while keeping the cushion of protection from proving much personal info to be used against me and staving off any potential recycle... .just friends and that is all I want now, even that with self-protection. I have learned and am often reminded I need to watch my boundaries with others. This has been a very instructive lesson.  Grateful as the learning continues

[Sunfl0wer]

You know, I just realized that the "residual feelings of love" aren't what bother me.  I embrace the Christian ideals of love, selflessness, forgiveness (even though I often fall short), and I hope to detach with love - that's what I've wanted all along. What actually bothers me is that if she were to come back into my life for any reason, I'm not sure I would be able to protect myself (emotionally) the way that I should because I still have those "residual feelings of love." I think I could get "pulled back in" - not into a sexual relationship, but in some sort of way that might be emotionally destructive to me nevertheless.  And that bothers me - I don't understand, after everything that happened in the r/s, why I don't have more of an instinct towards self-preservation.  I'm usually pretty analytical and strong minded.

Regarding the issue of why people don't protect themselves adequately against partner abuse, I think there is more than "love" involved, although I agree with Cosmonaut that this is the reason given most often for staying with an abusive partner. People who stay with abusive partners or have serial abusive relationships (like I do) have an automatic compartmentalized system for maintaining an All Good image of the abuser.

When the abuser is actually showing loving, non-abusive behavior s/he is seen positively, and the partner sees her/himself either as Good and Deserving, or Inadequate and Not Deserving. That is, the love and kindness of the abusive partner is perceived as a gift in either case, not something that is expected and deserved by the recipient.

When the abuser is hateful or unavailable, the partner may temporarily perceive the abuser as Bad and talk to friends about ending the relationship, but generally the person does not want this to happen and hopes the abuser will do something to enable her to justify staying. When the heat of the anger passes, it generally doesn't take much for the abused partner to flip into the space where the partner is seen as Good. To do this, the one who was receiving abuse "forgets" (dissociates) some or all of the perceptions, feelings and thoughts that went on during the abuse. To see the partner as All Good, however, the abused person also has to condemn the self as deserving the abuse.

This is why the recycling happens so easily in couples who have this interlock. The abused partner is highly motivated to sustain the relationship. The abuser can't or won't change her/his behavior, so the abused partner has to adjust her perceptions. The adjustment enables both partners to see the abuser in a positive light most of the time, but the abused partner takes the self-esteem hit.

This is an automatic process in people who have been raised in abusive homes. I am one of these people, and I do not yet know how to stop doing this. One thing I have found helpful is to map out the images of myself and my partner as they exist in the separated compartments (when the abuse is happening, when the reconciliation is happening, when the relationship is uneventful) along with the emotions I am experiencing with each set of images. It sounds complicated but it has helped me make sense out of how I switch so quickly from holding my partner accountable to "forgive and forget." The solution also seems to involve continuing to address my partner's bad behavior when we are in the All Good compartment. I stopped doing this during my last relationship because my partner would become defensive and nasty and withdraw, or threaten to leave me because I didn't see her the way she preferred to be seen. This behavior not the part of the abuser creates the illusion that the other person is starting fights out of nowhere, "carrying a grudge," etc. It can easily feel to the abused person like she is responsible for the conflict in the relationship and for the partner leaving during the Good times. To the extent I wasn't willing to risk the relationship when times were good (my partner's Bad was more tolerable or absent) I stopped integrating information about the bad times into the (false) image of the All Good Partner and All Good Relationship.

Some people on these boards have stated they had loving families with no abuse that could account for why they put up with it as adults. I would suggest that if you have been raised to think that you should be selfless, you might question how that affected your "self-esteem." It is not possible to have real self-esteem if you deny your self room to exist. I do know, however, that it is possible to hold an All Good image of oneself under these conditions, because that is exactly what I did. I felt as good as I could feel about myself as a sort of slave, whose existence was all for others. Servants get paid for their work and can take some pride in what they do; slaves have no choice, their selfless service is compulsory. If you are selfless, whom are you serving? Why do they deserve that service more than you? Are you thinking that they will also try to be selfless and give to you without conditions? How has that worked out for you?

Reading this, a thought occurred to me, I just made up... .

Maybe another part of the reason we "forget" how abuse made us feel... .

For survival... .it was necessary to spend all focus and all awareness on the other persons experience.  When we are hypervigilant, we are in hyper awareness about the abusers: emotions, actions, triggers... .etc.

Maybe we get neurologically wired/or form a strong habit of NOT focusing on our experience.  This is too painful + it does not really help our immediate survival.

The function of the dynamic of being with some of these dysfunctional dynamics reminds me of an educational Netflix I watched last month on perception and the brain... .crud I cannot remember the name.  Basically you were to watch a performer do a magic trick or some other performance was happening... .  At the end of the small clip, you were asked if you saw something like a guy in a gorilla suit go by. They rewind the clip... .and amazingly enough... .everyone misses this odd thing that would seem otherwise impossible to miss.

_{(I explain this, because for me, I have been in abusive r/s of different levels.  It didn't feel like the compartmentalized issue at all for me with this last r/s... .it felt more like above})

[Achaya]

Reading this, a thought occurred to me, I just made up... .

Maybe another part of the reason we "forget" how abuse made us feel... .

For survival... .it was necessary to spend all focus and all awareness on the other persons experience.  When we are hypervigilant, we are in hyper awareness about the abusers: emotions, actions, triggers... .etc.

Maybe we get neurologically wired/or form a strong habit of NOT focusing on our experience.  This is too painful + it does not really help our immediate survival.

The function of the dynamic of being with some of these dysfunctional dynamics reminds me of an educational Netflix I watched last month on perception and the brain... .crud I cannot remember the name.  Basically you were to watch a performer do a magic trick or some other performance was happening... . At the end of the small clip, you were asked if you saw something like a guy in a gorilla suit go by. They rewind the clip... .and amazingly enough... .everyone misses this odd thing that would seem otherwise impossible to miss.

_{(I explain this, because for me, I have been in abusive r/s of different levels.  It didn't feel like the compartmentalized issue at all for me with this last r/s... .it felt more like above})

Yes, I see this in myself, the focusing of attention on the other person, the lack of attention to how that person's behavior is affecting me emotionally. I assume I learned to do this as a child, because if I had focused on my own feelings of loneliness, deprivation, and despair I would have lost all hope. Thinking that I could fix the other person gave me hope and self-esteem.

In the same vein, I have discovered in the past couple of years that when I am triggered by someone else's behavior into very bad feelings and can't get out of them, I am not looking in the right direction. Usually I am not looking objectively at the other person's behavior and how it is affecting me. When I make an effort to simply recall and describe to myself all the things that the other person did or said immediately before I became upset, it is easy to see what caused the emotional reaction in me. This is a totally different from than what I was doing before, which was either to focus inward and blame myself for what was happening, or to analyze the other person's motives and feelings towards me.

There was a slogan that was popular in certain New Age circles years ago: "Where you look is what you see." When people are hurt or scared they focus very narrowly in one direction, and they miss a lot of what is going on.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you for explaining Achaya!

When it comes to some of this stuff... .my PTSD gives me some memory lapses... .I appreciated being able to repair some of these holes to properly connect the dots.

Now I understand.  Yes, there was a shift for me in the way I automatically process things.

When recalling a past abusive r/s... .I can recall that I was simply hurt and confused by it all, only knowing the hurt.  Like you said, focusing inward and blaming or outward and analyzing motives, feelings.

The recent more "mildly" emotionally abusive r/s... .I can see how my mind would be able to now attend to my emotional experience.  Like you explain, I too was looking for the spot that was an emotional trigger, then I'd tend to that.

Thank you for helping me organize that!  My mind feels slightly clearer! 

[shattered1]

I couldn't have written it better... .its exactly how I feel... .thank you  

[Achaya]

I couldn't have written it better... .its exactly how I feel... .thank you  

I am glad that this exchange was helpful to you as well as to me. I have been in a lot of therapy, and although it was very helpful in many ways, the emphasis on analysis of me and on analysis of my partners was not always helpful. Neither focus helped me to protect myself in interpersonal relationships. It took my whole life to finally find this simple attentional tool. Now I almost look forward to the next difficult interaction with somebody, so I can try it out again!

[jhkbuzz]

Reading this, a thought occurred to me, I just made up... .

Maybe another part of the reason we "forget" how abuse made us feel... .

For survival... .it was necessary to spend all focus and all awareness on the other persons experience.  When we are hypervigilant, we are in hyper awareness about the abusers: emotions, actions, triggers... .etc.

Maybe we get neurologically wired/or form a strong habit of NOT focusing on our experience.  This is too painful + it does not really help our immediate survival.

I think this is exactly what I did with my mother  - to survive. I repeated it with my ex.   

[Danie14]

Thank you again for all of your wonderfully caring thoughts... .but I have to wonder... .do I have to be considered ‘abused’ to have feelings of love for him still? Do I have to be considered a ‘victim’ because I still have feelings of love for him? I noticed that this topic moved into the realm of abuse…and how/why victims feel, etc….but what if I don’t feel like a victim of domestic abuse? Because I don’t feel like that.

A long time ago I made a choice to stay with him. I made this choice many times over the years. I knew and know what happened. I weighted to options, the pros/cons of this choice and of the possibility of leaving. Not just against my own bones…but against all the good that could come from this choice as well….the good definitely outweighed the bad in my mind at the time…and at all the other times I made this choice.

It wasn’t easy.

When I look at my kids I know I made the correct choice, every time I choose to stay…now…I have no reason to stay with him anymore. And I could hit him with a ton of bricks as I walk away…but I can’t…I won’t…because that’s not who I am. I am filled with love and light. He couldn’t distinguish that and I’m thankful…but you know I don’t believe for a second that he ever truly wanted to distinguish that love or light……I think he wants to possess it….to own it…to feel it…but until he can get out from under that rock he hides under he won’t have the ability to feel it. Which is very sad.

My goal now is to help him understand why. That's going to be hard. I doubt he'll ever understand. But I have to try. For his sake if not my own... .

[Sunfl0wer]

Reading this, a thought occurred to me, I just made up... .

Maybe another part of the reason we "forget" how abuse made us feel... .

For survival... .it was necessary to spend all focus and all awareness on the other persons experience.  When we are hypervigilant, we are in hyper awareness about the abusers: emotions, actions, triggers... .etc.

Maybe we get neurologically wired/or form a strong habit of NOT focusing on our experience.  This is too painful + it does not really help our immediate survival.

I think this is exactly what I did with my mother  - to survive. I repeated it with my ex.   

I have noticed many similarities when you post... .your experiences feel familiar to me often.

 

[jhkbuzz]

Reading this, a thought occurred to me, I just made up... .

Maybe another part of the reason we "forget" how abuse made us feel... .

For survival... .it was necessary to spend all focus and all awareness on the other persons experience.  When we are hypervigilant, we are in hyper awareness about the abusers: emotions, actions, triggers... .etc.

Maybe we get neurologically wired/or form a strong habit of NOT focusing on our experience.  This is too painful + it does not really help our immediate survival.

I think this is exactly what I did with my mother  - to survive. I repeated it with my ex.   

I have noticed many similarities when you post... .your experiences feel familiar to me often.

 

I find it really helpful when I discover something like that - processing with people that share similar experiences seems to speed my healing.

[leftconfused]

That's an interesting thought. My husband was fresh out of a horrible marriage (his POV, never met or spoke with her) when he and I started dating. He spoke so badly about her and still does to this day. I told him many years ago that I'm sick of paying for her mistakes... .yea... .and when I think about what you just wrote... .yea... .our relationship has never been able to get past a certain point and that maybe why... .because he's never let go of her or that relationship. He cheated on me years ago and has never been able to let go of that chick either... .ruminates about her, I now he does... .anyway, long story short. He's never let these people go and our relationship cannot move past this point because of it... .

I was reading through this thread and had to stop short here.

I have always felt, since the beginning of our r/s, that my SO was first connected with his ex... .before myself.

I have always felt that he saw himself as "the divorced H" "the victim of his exW".  I thought that over time, he would grow to see himself in our future more clearly.  This never happened. 

While he never easily spoke a bad word about her, he is not the type to talk bad about anyone much really... .(he was in terrible denial... .Mr. Happy Narcissist)  I always sensed her presence as a grey cloud over our r/s... .like a balloon... .to which he was holding the string... .or rather, she had tied a bow into to string around his wrist so he wouldn't let her float away and off into the distance.

I handed him scissors, I offered to cut... .  He felt threatened by this... .like I wanted to sever who he is/was.

His role in life was always "her ex" before he was "our partnership."

That is a huge reason why we are not together.  He was more comfortable in the role of the victim of his divorce than he was in the role of the partner of our r/s and leader of our family.

I had the exact same experience.  I actually knew his ex w from grade school and she is cousins to one of my best friends which is how he met her.  According to our mutual friends for years he went on and on about her and noone else was good enough for him.  They have been divorced for 9 years.  I don't think he has ever really let her go and our mutual friends don't think so either.  I had hoped it was just because he hadn't met the right girl.  Oh and believe me, I got the whole "I've never felt this way about anyone before, not even my ex w"  Yeah right, well now according to him he stopped loving me 8 mos into the relationship.