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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Poll
Question: How would you have handled the event described in the originating post?
Apologized and offered refund
Offered refund
Offered refund and express feelings of being insulted
Offered refund contingent on apology from the buyer
No response
No refund
No refund, express feelings of being insulted
No refund, ask for apology
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Author Topic: POLL: My BPD detector went off today... interested in comments on my reaction  (Read 3586 times)
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« on: August 18, 2015, 04:01:18 PM »

Interesting text exchange below... .could spark some discussion...


jogging stroller: FF, this is (ladies name). We bought the stroller from you last weekend. I clearly asked if it was in working order and if anything needed replacing. You told me just wear and tear, but in working order. This stroller has no brakes! The hand brake and the foot break are both completely broken. Thank God I didn't put my kids in this very unsafe stroller. I don't expect you to agree to return the stroller, though that would be the right thing for you to do. However, I do encourage you to consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children.

My kids are 2 months and 2 years old. I can't imagine you would be alright with someone ripping off your wife by selling her something that would put your boys in harms way. I'm very disappointed. 2:08 PM

Me: I'll return your $30 with return of the stroller and an in person apology for the lecture and apparent aspersions against my character 2:53 PM

jogging stroller: I'll talk to my husband about when we can get back to (ff town). You should review our exchanges. At no point did I accuse you of being a bad person. I made 3 points: 1. I asked clearly if anything needed replacing and you answered clearly "no" 2. Please be considerate of safety in the future when selling children's items 3. Put yourself in our shoes- you wouldn't want your wife in this situation. I did not insult you. I want you to be aware that selling a broken stroller can be very dangerous. I appreciate that you are willing to return it. 3:07 PM

Me: I feel insulted. I'm a (ff age) year old man... .do you really think that I have no idea that a broken stroller is dangerous? 3:10 PM

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

Me: no 3:15 PM

Me: stroller... .genuine in person apology,, and you get your $30 back 3:16 PM

jogging stroller: Apologize for what? You told me the stroller was in working condition and it's not. I know a bike shop that will repair it and donate it to charity. Id rather flush $30 and the stroller than give an apology that is undue and run the risk of anyone else getting on this death trap. We're done here. Don't spend your $30 all in one place 3:25 PM

Me: Your choice... 3:27 PM
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2015, 04:07:43 PM »

 

So... .I'm interested in comments on how I handled this... .I met this lady in person 1 time when she picked it up.

She showed up... .tossed it in her car ... gave me $30 and left... .

Anyway... .the entire "vibe" of the way she kinda asked for her money back... but not directly... .just the way all of this reads... .set off my "BPD detector"

Do you guys notice things like this more? 

Has a r/s with a pwBPD changed the way you interact with the world?

It has for me... .

I basically figured out under what circumstances I would be ok giving back the $$... .and offered that to her... .for some reason... .(unknown to me)... .she decided her apology was worth more to her (to keep it)... .than $30... .

Anyway... .hope this sparks a discussion about how what we have learned impacts the way we interact with the world.

The old me would have "debated" her about the finer points of the exchange... what she said... .what I said... blah blah...

FF
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2015, 04:34:45 PM »

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

Hi FF,

At this point, I would have accepted it and let it go.  The exchange between you two feels emotionally charged.  Could she have handled her part better from the get-go?  Sure.  Could you have? Mm hmm, at least I think so.

But hey, these things happen!

Not sure about her being BPDish, as much as a woman that feels like she just got screwed and is asserting herself in the best way she knew how, against a man that "lied" about the condition of the stroller to begin with.  Would a man who would lie about the condition of a baby stroller, turn around and return it easily?

I'm not calling you a liar, FF.  I truly believe it was an oversight.

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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2015, 04:43:57 PM »

 

Oh... yeah... .I believe brakes worked... .they've never not worked for us  (never not... ?  Hmmm)  Did I run a full diagnostic right before she showed up... .nope... .

And... .I wish that I had asked her if she was satisfied... or suggested she check it out.

She really just looked at it... and went...

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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2015, 04:59:04 PM »

Oh... yeah... .I believe brakes worked... .they've never not worked for us  (never not... ?  Hmmm)  

Okay, so you believe she's lying?

Excerpt
Did I run a full diagnostic right before she showed up... .nope... .



Caveat Emptor, I guess.  Unless, the brakes really were faulty, even though you weren't aware of it.

And... .I wish that I had asked her if she was satisfied... or suggested she check it out.

Good idea for the future Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)


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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2015, 05:04:07 PM »

Okay, so you believe she's lying?

No idea... .

Agreed that buyers should check stuff out to their satisfaction... .sometimes that can go overboard as well.

Sold a wireless pet fence ($175) to a lady today.  We met at a grocery store and she proceeded to plug it in and start fiddling with it... .for 20 minutes... .

Luckily... .she decided it was working fine... .and paid me the $$

Jeesh...

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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2015, 06:32:44 PM »

Yup, I think your BPD radar went off for good reason.  She was way over the top with false accusations, jumping to conclusions, etc.

You are not responsible for the safety of her kids, she is.

She is assuming you are trying to swindle her... .Why... .to fear, manipulate, revenge?  Feeling dumb that she did not take responsibility to check out the stroller? And now is ashamed... .projecting her bad feelings onto you.

Her reaction is more than what this situation calls for... .and disrespectful to you.

Now, on the other hand, is demanding she apologize a bit of a power play on your part?  Maybe?  However, I cannot think of another approach to offer you that also demands her further interaction with you would be a deescalated one... .not consumed with disrespect towards you.  So... .in that part... .I'm stumped.

Maybe offer a refund, however she would have to express the very same concerns to your customer service department wife, and manage the return refund through your wife? 
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 06:48:26 PM »

FF,

How would you feel if someone had put you up in a plane with no brakes? Wait... .I guess that is a bad analogy... .

This has nothing to do with BPD. It is the lack of civility in our society.

She overtly implied that you ripped her off:  "I don't expect you to agree to return the stroller, though that would be the right thing for you to do." "I can't imagine you would be alright with someone ripping off your wife by selling her something that would put your boys in harms way."

A text stating the brakes do not work and asking for her money back without the accusatory lecture would have been proper. I don't care how many times she has been ripped off in the past, she was wrong to assume you did the same.    

Your offer to give her money back in exchange for a deserved apology should show her you were not intentionally selling her a defective stroller and sounds fair to me. If losing $30 for her uncivilized way of handling it teaches her something, great. If not, that is on her.  
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 07:02:56 PM »

Sounds to me like you took it personally and forgot to validate her. No biggie - she's not your wife - but for the sake of practice, why not use the tools? She felt ripped off, she felt the stroller put her children in danger. Her feelings are her facts.

Personally, I think she was a bit melodramatic about a $30 stroller. I don't have kids but aren't those things in the $100+ range?
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2015, 07:03:46 PM »

It is the lack of civility in our society.

Exactly!

I'm not sure if this was boundaries... or what... .but I have no problem offering the refund.  

Had she asked... .and left it at that... it would have been over... .as quickly as she could bring the stroller out.  And... then I would have looked at the brakes and figured out what was up.  

I probably would have been within my "rights" to say no... the deal is final... but... I'm really not that kind of guy.

The only thing I would not have been ok with... .is letting her blather on about what I would and wouldn't do and give her her money back without standing up for myself.

She offered me a chance to do the right thing... and I did.

I offered her the chance to do right thing... .without a ridiculous accompanying lecture about the right thing... .and she chose not to... .

The entire thing seemed odd or over the top... .

FF
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 07:08:07 PM »

Personally, I think she was a bit melodramatic about a $30 stroller. I don't have kids but aren't those things in the $100+ range?

Yep... .it was about a $150 unit new.  We have used it for years and wanted to get it gone quick... .

So... .what did she expect for $30... .?

FF
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2015, 07:08:47 PM »

Her emails reek of passive aggressive manipulation.  Questioning you as a husband and father is highly manipulative.

The fact is, she bought a used item without checking it out.  Who is negligent here?  Who is putting her own kids at risk?  I would guess she felt stupid and guilty for not checking it out and seems to be passing that responsibility on to you.

Not sure about the BPD radar... .but my BS meter is dinging away in the red zone.  



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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2015, 07:12:25 PM »

Personally, I would have just given her back the $30.  I prefer to be on the losing end of the transaction so there is no doubt that I am acting fairly.
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2015, 07:22:59 PM »

So... .what did she expect for $30... .?

FF

Sounds like she was expecting a used stroller; general wear and tear, no parts needing replacing, with working hand and foot brakes Smiling (click to insert in post)

Is it old fashioned to take a man at their word?

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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2015, 07:55:49 PM »

Are brakes really that important? I mean, and again, I don't have kids, but aren't the parents holding onto the stroller? Surely they aren't strolling down mountains or near the edge of a cliff with babies in it?

But I digress... .as far as FF knew, the stroller and all the parts worked. He wasn't trying to get rich off this lady. So guilt-tripping him or treating him like a con-artist was unfair. But demanding an apology also seems rigid to me. He started to de-escalate the situation with her right up until that point.

Oh well... .this was entertaining.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2015, 07:59:11 PM »

This is just another example of why I got out of law enforcement. Neighbor disputes. Road rage. People getting offended and acting like they are victims of the more heinous acts when there was no intended ill will toward them. I spent half my time dealing with adults fighting over the red sucker.

FF unknowingly selling a stroller that did not work is no different than the guy who cut you off in traffic this morning. Give him the benefit of the doubt that he did not do it on purpose before you flip him off. An apology was indeed in order.    

Take it from someone who has been shot at and almost stabbed to death. Getting that upset and uncivil over such a minor thing as a malfunctioning stroller is just not that important.
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2015, 08:06:42 PM »

Are brakes really that important?

If they're worn down to the nubbins, they must be!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Oh well... .this was entertaining.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

FF, all kidding aside, the entire exchange seems overblown, to me.  Emotions were riding high, it happens!

Have you learned anything?  Are you totally cool with your part?  Would you do anything differently?


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« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2015, 08:06:55 PM »

So... .what did she expect for $30... .?

FF

Sounds like she was expecting a used stroller; general wear and tear, no parts needing replacing, with working hand and foot brakes Smiling (click to insert in post)

Is it old fashioned to take a man at their word?

No, it is not old fashioned to take a man at his word.

Is it old fashioned to say you have a problem with something you bought without attacking the character of the person who sold it to you? Bet if she had, she would have her $30 and FF would be fixing the stroller before trying to sell it again.  Maybe she learned something. But I doubt it!
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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2015, 08:18:52 PM »

My experience with dealing with BPD would have resulted in a different conversation.

Recall the "pink elephant" analogy. If someone called you a pink elephant, would you defend yourself or just think the person was nuts, after all you know you are not a pink elephant.

An irate person, who is, in the moment, being self righteous and indignant, accuses you of ripping her off.

But you know that you didn't.  

The demand for an apology escalated the conversation. Someone in her emotional state is not likely to back down and apologize.

It would have gone this way for me

Her: "You ripped me off by selling me this killer baby stroller you mean person!"

Me: ( pink elephant alert) I am happy to give you a refund if you return it. Can we meet at X? ( in a public place where I won't get attacked and will bring someone else along) ( and for $30 I can end this conversation!)

Her : "you mean rip off person!"

Me: I am happy to meet you at X to give you your money back... .and keep repeating it. ( thinking to myselfjoking) lady if you keep talking I will give you $40 to stop Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) )

I think dealing with BPD has made me want to get into things less, at least with people I don't know. Don't sweat the small stuff Smiling (click to insert in post)

So, there are many ways we deal with this, but hopefully you won't be running into her again.

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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2015, 08:23:48 PM »

She was rude.

She triggered you, you became defensive and were rude in return.

Give her the money back and forget it.
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2015, 08:29:53 PM »

Excerpt
Me: I feel insulted. I'm a (ff age) year old man... .do you really think that I have no idea that a broken stroller is dangerous? 3:10 PM

jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM

Me: no 3:15 PM

Me: stroller... .genuine in person apology,, and you get your $30 back 3:16 PM

There's just something about demanding a genuine in person apology that seems really weird to me.


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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2015, 08:31:53 PM »

Have you learned anything?  Are you totally cool with your part?  Would you do anything differently?

I think I am cool with my part... .

I believe... .hope... I acted properly...

She came out with a weird... suggestive (no direct) rant... .sort of implied she wanted her money back... sort of said I swindled her... .sort of...

So... I let her know she would have her money back... .and the conditions... .no long lecture.  While I wouldn't say I was happy at the moment... .I certainly wasn't triggered or furious... .

By the same token... .I'm not going to go through life letting people suggest that I'm not an honorable guy... .my only leverage was that she wanted me to do the right thing... .which I was willing to do.  If she was willing to be a stand up gal... .

Anyway... .

FF
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2015, 08:36:32 PM »

There's just something about demanding a genuine in person apology that seems really weird to me.

See... .I think it is just as weird that you would NOT do that in person... that is what I teach my kids... what I've been taught.

Look a person in the eye... .tell them you are sorry... .ask forgiveness... whatever you want to say.

Or... if you think they are a crook... .again... .in person... .

So... .for instance... when I have had problems with cars... .businesses... .whatever... .much better to deal with someone in person

FF
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2015, 08:37:26 PM »

Maybe you were triggered because your wife suggests all the time that you are not an honorable guy. And maybe your wife never apologizes.
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2015, 08:43:14 PM »

There's just something about demanding a genuine in person apology that seems really weird to me.

See... .I think it is just as weird that you would NOT do that in person... that is what I teach my kids... what I've been taught.

Look a person in the eye... .tell them you are sorry... .ask forgiveness... whatever you want to say.

Or... if you think they are a crook... .again... .in person... .

So... .for instance... when I have had problems with cars... .businesses... .whatever... .much better to deal with someone in person

FF

I get what you're saying FF.

I keep coming back to this:

"jogging stroller: I understand. I felt taken advantage of and that someone was turning a buck on my me in a way that could hurt my babies. I felt insulted, too. Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings 3:15 PM"

I personally believe that had the conversation ended here, after an "Okay, sounds good"--an in person apology might very well have happened on her own.  No demands or instructions necessary.
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2015, 09:01:18 PM »

I personally believe that had the conversation ended here, after an "Okay, sounds good"--an in person apology might very well have happened on her own.  No demands or instructions necessary.

It very well may have... .

She wanted her $30... .I wanted my apology... .

At that point... .there was... .and still is... .zero chance of me handing over $30 without an apology... .

If I was certain that I had done something wrong... .or it was very likely I did something wrong... .then I would sing a different tune.

I have no idea what happened to brakes... .possibilities are endless... .

FF

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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2015, 09:03:01 PM »

I personally believe that had the conversation ended here, after an "Okay, sounds good"--an in person apology might very well have happened on her own.  No demands or instructions necessary.

It very well may have... .

She wanted her $30... .I wanted my apology... .

At that point... .there was... .and still is... .zero chance of me handing over $30 without an apology... .

If I was certain that I had done something wrong... .or it was very likely I did something wrong... .then I would sing a different tune.

I have no idea what happened to brakes... .possibilities are endless... .

FF

Well, and as it stands, neither of you got what you wanted.  Such is life... .
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2015, 11:17:12 PM »

  FF,  Hiya Smiling (click to insert in post)   I was reading this subject and had a thought.  I have bought items secondhand for my kids.  And usually it's because I was trying to save what little money we had. It's

kind of scary and you have to be careful, and you have NO IDEA what kind of person you are buying from. It's the worst feeling in the world when you get it home and realize that it

doesn't work, your money is gone and there's NOTHING you can do about it.

           Perhaps this woman was just in a bad situation and was feeling overwhelmed, scared and she assumed that you were a bad person who had taken advantage of her.  it

happens... .people assume the worst. WE can't control what others think or feel, or how they treat us. We can only control how we act , how we respond, and how we treat them.


          Whether or not this woman was BPD is not the issue.  You felt hurt and angry at her accusations (and you can do that).  You tried to force HER to do something, IF she wanted her

money back (you can't do that).  To give her a refund or not is YOUR choice. How you respond to being treated unfairly is UP TO YOU.  Sound familiar?


          You are demanding that this woman  perform an act of apologizing,  before YOU can do . what I assume you think is, the right thing and return her money.

         Not only in our relationships, but out in the world, we will always meet and interact with people who are rude, disrespectful , assume the worst of us... .and it's UP TO US how we

respond to them!  98% of the time, I can disengage, remind myself that how they are responding is NOT my problem, and just deal with the issue at hand.  (the other 2% I get mad,

feel disrespected, yell and throw things at the squirrels in the backyard )  (Sigh)   

       Anyway, you seem like a reasonable person, and it's just my perspective. Try to step back and think what advice you would give to your wife if she came to you with this.  Good luck

with things.




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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2015, 12:33:38 AM »

Her emails reek of passive aggressive manipulation.  Questioning you as a husband and father is highly manipulative.

The fact is, she bought a used item without checking it out.  Who is negligent here?  Who is putting her own kids at risk?  I would guess she felt stupid and guilty for not checking it out and seems to be passing that responsibility on to you.

This^^^^^.

FWIW, when she sent her first text, the response "That is unfortunate. The last time I used the stroller, the brakes worked properly. What makes you think I didn't consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children? And what makes you think I wouldn't give you a refund if you asked me for a refund because the item is defective?" might have gotten an interesting answer.

And demanding an apology instead of asking for clarification was probably not the best opening move on your part.
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2015, 05:10:36 AM »

FWIW, when she sent her first text, the response "That is unfortunate. The last time I used the stroller, the brakes worked properly. What makes you think I didn't consider the consequences of selling completely unsafe items for the use of children? And what makes you think I wouldn't give you a refund if you asked me for a refund because the item is defective?" might have gotten an interesting answer.

And demanding an apology instead of asking for clarification was probably not the best opening move on your part.

Interesting... .I see the tactic... .I like it.  If I had done as you suggest... .I would be tossing her some rope... . She then would have a choice to rescue herself with it... .or hang herself...

I also could have gone to my old standby "help me understand... ."

JADE alert!  :  Since her communication was so "wordy"... .I was trying to be efficient and communicate my message... .with as few words as possible.  In fact... .I was deliberate in using "apparent aspersions"... .rather than just telling her she was being nasty... .because of her suggestive approach.

Offroad:  I'm having a bit of a Seinfeld moment... .the one where George kept figuring out what he wished he would have said... .but it was too late...

FF
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« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2015, 06:01:37 AM »

This exchange irritated you and you asked for feedback about it here, which is great, because this is an opportunity to learn. We could consider what is going on with that lady- does she have BPD, was she rude, stressed, crazy, but really, she isn't asking here and she isn't reading ( I don't think) and we have basically no information about her, so anything we say about her is a guess at best.

But, we can discuss your side of it, because you are asking and reading, and in every relationship/exchange between people, there are two involved.

GAgirl said it most succinctly, but others have said it too- and the most valuable part of this interchange to you is that it triggered you. It bothered you to think someone did not think you were honorable.

I can understand being bothered by someone thinking this if they were close to you and you were concerned about your relationship with them, but this woman is not someone who knows you well. Who knows what she is thinking? She could be paranoid and think this about anyone. Or she could be just mad.

This was not personal, it was a sale. Salespeople have encountered all kinds of rudeness, but as part of their job, they know that if an irate customer returns an item, the policy is to refund it. A salesperson would likely get fired if he or she demanded an apology from a customer. The policy "customer is always right" isn't necessarily true, but it is a business principle.

My best guess for the reason this woman called you is to get her money back. Yes, she said other things, but #1 was a refund.

You were triggered, but you still had a choice. IMHO, this is where the conversation got complicated. She wants her money back and you make it contingent on an apology. Why? if the stroller was not satisfactory, then she should be able to take it back and get a refund. regardless. She may have been rude, but still, being triggered is your part.

If you can own your part, then this interchange is useful to you because you know yourself, and have no effect on how that woman thinks or behaves. The title then can move from "My BPD detector went off" to "My personal trigger went off".

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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2015, 06:10:09 AM »

The pink elephant analogy is a measuring stick for our own triggers.

We get triggered by statements that may or may not be true, because those statements resonate with us for a reason. We may not know the reason, but they feel hurtful, they sting. They can trigger us into trying to defend ourselves (JADE). If we feel attacked, then we can get reactive to them, trigger the other person, and then we are in one of those too familiar conversations.

If someone were to call us a pink elephant, then we are likely not to be triggered because we know, with absolute certainty, that we are not a pink elephant. Such a comment would not effect us emotionally.

We would likely not JADE that we are not pink elephants. Something that we know is not true does not need to be defended.

When I hear something that may bother me, I think " is this something I need to consider, or, is this a pink elephant?" This is helpful to keep me from reacting if triggered.

This is not to say that you are not honorable, but somehow this lady's rudeness bothered you, even if it was not true. This is a situation that might result in some insight that could help in exchanges with people you are close to.
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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2015, 06:10:19 AM »

She sounds like my exgf. My thoughts are the stroller was fine but she either broke it or had gone off of it. Rather than admit fault she put the blame on you. She may have backed herself into a corner with her partner by saying you sold it broken . Her partner might have said he would deal with it. Risking being found out she then irrately contacted you.

My exgf did this. She would break things and try and claim they came that way. Normally it would end up my fault for buying shidy goods.
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2015, 07:13:58 AM »

This was not personal, it was a sale. Salespeople have encountered all kinds of rudeness, but as part of their job, they know that if an irate customer returns an item, the policy is to refund it. A salesperson would likely get fired if he or she demanded an apology from a customer. The policy "customer is always right" isn't necessarily true, but it is a business principle.

It's also a "business principle" of mine... .that if I don't have to deal with ridiculous behavior... .I don't.  

My goal is not her happiness... .I was trying to do the right thing by her... .and by me.  

My honor is worth standing up for... .I'm worth standing up for... .I have choices... .she has choices.

Where she was suggestive (I'm guessing in accordance with her values)... .I was clear (in accordance with mine).

At this point... .I wish I had asked a clarifying question (the offroad post... .still having my Costanza moment)... but I didn't.

I do wonder if because if have had to "get over" my honor thing at home (with my wife)... .perhaps I am a bit more prickly about it in the rest of my life.

But... I've always been that way... .I have stopped defending it at home... .that's the difference... that I see anyway.

Last time something like this came up was about a year ago... .in my work situation (I'm an executive type)... .a guy I had a good r/s up until that point and that was wanting to bring in business starting ranting about what I had and hadn't done with the attorney.

Then he said I was lying to him... .(we were on a phone in 3 way call with his other business partner)... .anyway... .I got him to hush and said I had something he needed to listen to.  (these were also retired military types)

To his credit he listened.  I gave him an evenly delivered talk about not letting people impugn my honor... .that I am truthful and I have better things to do with my time than listen to his accusations.  I ended it with letting him know that if he wanted to continue dealing with me... .he could retract his accusations and apologize... .and all would be well with us.

I could tell he was seething on the phone... .his business partner... .also retired military type said... ."Well gentlemen... .sounds like we are done here."

I said:  "I'm done... "

Other guy:  "i'm done"

To his credit... .he called back later and apologized.  I accepted the apology... .thanked him for him... .and... I never brought it up again. 

I'm not saying my world... and my way is the right way... .but... .I suspect I'm in the minority.

FF
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« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2015, 08:44:38 AM »

We all have principles we are willing to defend.

However, we can also choose our battles.

Many of our actions have a payoff and a cost. When the cost is higher than the payoff, we have the opportunity to reconsider our actions.

I understand that what you did was doing the right thing by you and your values.

I am curious how you think it is doing the right thing for her.

I reviewed her responses to you, and while she is framed as the one with the issues (BPD- and that may or may not be the case- we don't know), and she may have been rude to you, she called you to get a refund. When you added the apology as a contingent to that refund, she backed down.

Consider the possibility that it was not about apologizing to you, but that it just wasn't worth $30 to her to deal with you anymore- to make arrangements to return the stroller- and she may have wanted to end the conversation.

It is possible that neither of you did the wrong thing by the stroller. I once bought a coffee pot on e bay and when I opened the box and took it out, the handle cracked off. The seller did not sell me a broken pot. I did not break it. It happened. I contacted the seller to tell her what happened and she refunded my money immediately. There was no more exchange between us than that. Each of us gave the other the benefit of the doubt.

When to defend our rights and principles and when to let go for the sake of peace is a personal choice. One can do this to the extent of losing sight of who we are, or losing sight of who the other is, but I think there is a middle ground. You have your honor, and her $30.  She is out $30 and has a broken stroller. She let go.

I don't mean to be harsh, but again, you asked for feedback. I can't give it to her, she isn't on here. I am posting for the sake of considering this at all angles, not about who is right or who is wrong, and in hopes that seeing different perspectives will help us in all our relationships.
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« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2015, 09:25:28 AM »

she backed down.

Yeah... .I don't back down much. 

Since learning about BPD and being on this site... .I've been "backing down" more... .in my r/s.

More accurately... .I don't make a fuss about as many things anymore.  If I do make a fuss about something... .I have thought it through... .and will NOT back down.  No intermittent reinforcement... .

I believe I did the right thing "for her" by accepting her request for a refund and clearly (no suggestions or hints) laying out how to do that.  While it might have been satisfying to "pick up the bait" and send her a speech back about what I thought of her... (old me would have done this... )... .I skipped it.   

I also let her know... clearly and succinctly (no speeches)... .what I was unhappy about... .and gave her the chance to make it right.  She declined... .her choice. 

FF

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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2015, 09:36:15 AM »

She was out of line accusing you of selling a defective stroller.

You were out of line demanding an apology.
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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2015, 09:47:47 AM »



Interesting... .I don't feel like I "demanded" an apology.  I've noticed the use of that word a bunch in this post... .not one I normally use.

I set conditions upon which she was able to get something... .for which she was not entitled (IMO)... .she choose to not exercise that option.

She did... .to her credit... .attempt a sort of negotiation... .hey... let's skip the hurt feelings (not exactly her words)... .that was not acceptable to me... .I would have felt like smartass suggesting that she skip over doing her due diligence to protect her kids... so... I chose to stick with my original position...

Honestly not trying to argue with anyone here... .I find the different points of view fascinating... .whether I agree with them or not. 

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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2015, 10:07:43 AM »

This could be seen in different terms.

There are two separate issues that were bundled together.

She bought a stroller from you. According to her it was broken. She called to ask for a refund.

She insulted you and made false accusations. You wanted an apology.

So, two people are left wanting something from the other. She wants a refund, you want an apology.

Two people are left holding something the other person wants: you have the $30, she has the apology.

You made her getting the $30 contingent on apologizing to you. Maybe this is better than the term "demanded"


But this really is two separate issues collapsed into one, and one where each of you took the stand and paid a price for it. Hers was to not apologize and give up what she wants ( the money). Yours was to keep the money and give up on what you want. ( the apology)

You both win something and you both lose something.

Could there have been a win -win?

She could have called you up ranting, and you could have chosen to not address the rant at the moment, and offered to give the money back.

She, happy with the refund, could possibly have realized you were not trying to rip her off. At the exchange you may have had the chance to say something to her such as, I am happy to give you a refund. I had no idea that the stroller would break. I hope this gives me the chance to show this to you, that I am an honorable man.

And she may or may not have said "yes you are, I am sorry. I was afraid I had been ripped off but now I see that this is not the case.

And it may or may not have been win-win, but at least the chance for that was there.

Hindsight is 20-20 so no blaming here,... .but something to think about. In the middle of an emotional exchange we don't usually think of other options, but we can after the fact.

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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2015, 10:27:00 AM »

Hi ff,

I have read your entry post twice now some 8 hours apart, I was triggered when I read it this morning and it still triggers me now.

I think you are very open to post it here and ask for feed-back, so my filtered trigger free feed-back is... .Smiling (click to insert in post)

I don't know if the woman has BPD, but I suspect not, because whilst I would have kicked myself for not checking, I too would have assumed that on a child's buggy that the brakes really would be in working order. I too would have been extremely upset to find they were broken, and I would have been devastated if harm had come to my children as a result of this.

Her phonecall to you albeit emotional sounds absolutely fine to me, what wasn't fine to me was your response.

Really ff, an apology?

She was restrained in backing down from this response from you and backing away and not bothering with the refund, and she was right IMO she had nothing to apologise for.

I wouldn't have been so diplomatic or measured in my response to your conditions for a refund.

What I have learnt since coming here is that I can be triggered, big time, but I can now validate someone's emotional distress and I no longer have a need to have the final say, or be right, or to push home my values.


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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2015, 10:33:44 AM »



Two people are left holding something the other person wants: you have the $30, she has the apology.

Yep... .much better.  And... .right now I'm "satisfied"... .I wouldn't really call this a "win"... .but I also didn't "loose".  

Knowing me... .I would have been upset... .felt bad... .whatever... .if I gave the $30 and didn't get an apology... .or she still behaved oddly.

I also would have felt bad... .or feel I misled her in some way... .to say I would give her the $30... .and the bring up the apology or her behavior when she got here.  

FF
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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2015, 10:36:04 AM »

Her phonecall to you 

It was a text exchange... .I only removed her and my name... .and the name of my town... .
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« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2015, 10:39:04 AM »

Hi ff,

I have read your entry post twice now some 8 hours apart, I was triggered when I read it this morning and it still triggers me now.

 

Any idea what part of that is triggering?

FF
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« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2015, 10:40:28 AM »

@FF the way I read that exchange sounds BPDish to me, also. If it was me and I bought an item like that and found the brakes to not be working, the fact that your answer right away was to have her return it with a full refund and you would apologize.

I think when you have been around BPD enough, we might see it where it isn't, but we also pick up on it a lot quicker. Just like my mechanic story where he was ripping me off but HE was offended. He got away with it too due my husband's lack of action. (To sue him, I needed the title. He needs to go have the replacement title document notarized and won't do so. We are out a truck, his roofing tools, and the 2,300 paid for the repairs. Not something I can do for him)

It's the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon.
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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2015, 10:47:31 AM »

 

JADE alert!

I would have felt and acted totally different if I knew I did something wrong (or strongly suspected)... .but... .if I had to bet... .the brakes got broken... .messed up somehow by her getting in and out of her car... .or setting it up... .no idea.  Stuff happens.

My money is on that they were working fine when they left my house... .

Owned this thing for years... .every time I pulled the brake handle... .or clicked the foot brake... .worked fine.  They aren't complicated.  I'm a pretty big gearhead... .work on lots of equipment.  I can geek out on how machines work.  

Most of the time... .people break things... .rather than things just "breaking".  They are misused.  I've broken tons of stuff... .and learned lessons.  

So... .stuff happens... .I think I'm a reasonable guy... .and a simple request would have gotten a simple response.

Again... .I'm fascinated by the different points of view... .the way people view and "handle" the world around them.

FF

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« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2015, 10:52:59 AM »

we might see it where it isn't, but we also pick up on it a lot quicker.

This was really the "point" or question of my post. 

Obviously... .I have no idea about her mental health from this one interaction... .but man... .it just sounded odd... .and was odd to me.

This seems to be text book to suggest that I am a scoundrel... .without really saying it directly.

I'm obviously a direct guy... .upfront guy. 

So... .I've noticed I have a "BPD detector"... .or at least a "odd behavior detector"... .

Seems like others have developed this as well. 

No idea if my detector is calibrated correctly... .

FF
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« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2015, 11:18:36 AM »

LOL FF... .I often find myself wondering if I have BPD, also. I tend to have black and white thinking, I do have 'triggers', I do sometimes have outbursts from an overflow of emotions, and I have paranoia/anxiety issues.

I think we get calibrated to what we have to deal with in our daily lives. My thoughts and reactions are based on what my life history has taught me, and vice versa.
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« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2015, 11:24:11 AM »

  I tend to have black and white thinking, I do have 'triggers', 

My guess is... .that you are more consistent... .(that nons are more consistent) in their black and white thinking... .

I actually like black and white thinking... .if it is consistent.  If it's not consistent... .well... kinda like Gump's box of chocolates... .you never know what you will get...

So... .am I "black and white" about aspersions on my character... .and I rigid... .YEP... .guilty as charged... .  But... .I'm consistent... .at least I believe I am... .   Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2015, 11:44:01 AM »

I think that after what weve been through we notice more.

I was once told that we have an in built defense mechanism. Its an ancient one that goes back to cavemen. When we are exposed to something that isnt good for us then we build an aversion to it. I was told this about food. It was a defense mechanism that stopped people poisening themselves. I cant see why it wouldnt spill over into other areas and give a similar reaction.
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« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2015, 11:46:27 AM »

So... .am I "black and white" about aspersions on my character... .and I rigid... .YEP... .guilty as charged... .  But... .I'm consistent... .at least I believe I am... .   Smiling (click to insert in post)

I'm not convinced you're going to feel so great about this particular contract dispute at a later time, when you look back on it. (I think you are honorable enough to wonder whether you really honored the basics of an offer/acceptance understanding here. The woman now either has to apologize or go to small claims court, which I doubt you intended initially.)

You would have to be a stone statue, I think, not to be affected by the wild accusations your wife makes against you, on a regular basis, and in front of your children. And for it not to bleed over into other aspects of your life. Here, I feel, it did.



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« Reply #50 on: August 19, 2015, 12:09:28 PM »

Ugh. Yes lack civility.

Entitlement attitude.

Lack of ownership, she could have insisted on checking herself before purchase, caveat emptor has been around a long time.

Inability to calm oneself down before speaking.

The lecture complete with haughty tone, as if she has never in her life made a mistake and is 100% blameless.

Victim mentality.

Splitting... .viewing this as all black and that you are up to something nefarious... .there was nothing in her statement that embraced the more obvious possibility that you simply didn't know the brakes weren't working.

I can understand protecting her kids and getting a bit "mother bear" about it b/c her instinct to protect kicked in (presumably) ... but it's pretty over the top.

Who knows if she's Borderline or not.  

It seems a lot of our society has embraced a very borderline way of viewing life. Potentially bad or risky things should never ever happen and when they do it's a huge drama filled fiasco and there is always someone to blame.  It's was fuels litigation.

This would trigger me.  I'd have to use all my skills to take the high road in my response to this. Obviously your response was a reaction to being triggered and you were not in your 'skills' place.   It's human.  

It's $30.  

In my higher self,  I'd return the $30 and apologize that I was not aware the brakes were faulty, I would empathize/validate her  b/c it involves her children's safety and so of course she is going to be upset and it's understandable... .and be done with it.

In my reactionary self... .I'd have said something in a what the heck tone like... ." I didn't know the brakes were bad, it worked fine for us, I'm sorry, calm down!  here's your $30 back... .Geesh!"

I don't think I would have demanded an apology from her for speaking to me as though I'm a bad person.  Who cares if she assumes your a bad person?  She doesn't know you.  Also... .It's possible I COULD be a BAD PERSON... .again she doesn't know you.  

I am only human, I sometime actually do do BAD or insensitve things. I'm not perfect.  Nor is she.  I'm not normally THAT attached to being seen as without fault especially by a stranger who is clearly flipped out.  If I am feeling attached to that... .it would be interesting to explore why, but only if it was really bugging me.

bah... .Life is too short.


 

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« Reply #51 on: August 19, 2015, 12:12:27 PM »

My guess is... .that you are more consistent... .(that nons are more consistent) in their black and white thinking... .

I actually like black and white thinking... .if it is consistent.  If it's not consistent... .well... kinda like Gump's box of chocolates... .you never know what you will get...

So... .am I "black and white" about aspersions on my character... .and I rigid... .YEP... .guilty as charged... .  But... .I'm consistent... .at least I believe I am... .   Smiling (click to insert in post)

FF

I am, and if evidence is presented to prove me wrong, I do not have a problem with accepting it and reworking my thoughts on a subject. That is different than pwBPD. But I know because of my black and white thinking, if my expectations are not met I can be triggered.

I try to keep in mind a line from a Ray Wylie Hubbard song, ""And the days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations... .Well, I have really good days"

I strive to keep my gratitude higher than my expectations.
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« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2015, 12:26:57 PM »

I like MaybeSo's thoughts. Facing such rudeness, who knows how one might respond on any given day. Sorry this happened to you.
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« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2015, 01:06:22 PM »

I agree that we humans could use some more civility, however, when we are in a state of anger, or being triggered, we do not tend to act from our higher self. Our lizard brains can take over.

I remember opening the coffee maker, and it broke. I was not happy and I also worried that I had been ripped off. But I decided to attempt to explain the situation to the seller. I offered to return it, but noted that the postage to do that was more than it was worth. Had the seller lived nearby, I would have brought it to her. The exchange went no further as she refunded the money and I thanked her.

I mention this because for a moment, I was upset to get a broken pot, and I can imagine that the woman who bought the stroller could have fears she was ripped off and also was angry, which is one reason she was inappropriately rude.

There are a number of possible reactions, one is FF's, another is, well this lady is having a really bad day, and others.

It is also possible that nobody is at fault over the brakes. Things break when they break, and it isn't always predictable. However, if something breaks soon after purchase, it is understandable that the buyer could be upset and wants a refund.

FF took a stand over his honor, and that is understandable, but honor isn't necessarily won verbally. In the Wild West, two people went to duel over their honor, and I guess the one who wasn't dead was the winner, and I guess to them, honor was worth dying for.

Honor can be won by actions as well. The lady who sold me the coffee pot demonstrated her honor by promptly refunding the money. I know she was someone to be trusted, because although I gave her money for the pot, she returned it to me when I brought up an issue with it.  However, I did not know that when I first got it and I imagined I could be ripped off. As a result, I gave her a good recommendation on e bay, because I know she can not predict the future- that the pot would break right as I got it. That she can not control. However, she proved herself to be a reliable seller by how she handled it.

I know I didn't insult her or speak rudely to her, but that is another issue. This is a money- object exchange, and even if that lady is rude, she doesn't get her money back without an apology. To FF, it may feel good to take a stand on this, and you may be happy with the outcome, but if your intention was for her to think you are an honorable guy, I don't know if this convinced her.



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« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2015, 01:15:53 PM »

  Here, I feel, it did.

Entirely possible... . 

Couple other comments... .I am the way I am.  I am really focusing on using tools with my wife.  And to a lesser degree with my kids.

I don't have the energy... .or the interest... .to use it in the rest of my life.  I'm curious if I will feel differently about this in a few years... .

KateCat can remember this day... .and ask me about it in a few years!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

FF

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« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2015, 01:22:47 PM »

  but if your intention was for her to think you are an honorable guy, I don't know if this convinced her.

I don't care what she thinks... .my honor... .good name... .etc etc is worth defending... .

I also had a goal of clearly giving the lady a pathway to her refund... .a pathway that (IMO) offered her a chance to do the right thing... .and me a chance to do the right thing.

FF

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« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2015, 01:31:21 PM »

KateCat can remember this day... .and ask me about it in a few years!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Will do.
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« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2015, 01:39:43 PM »

I would have felt and acted totally different if I knew I did something wrong (or strongly suspected)... .but... .if I had to bet... .the brakes got broken... .messed up somehow by her getting in and out of her car... .or setting it up... .no idea.  Stuff happens.

My money is on that they were working fine when they left my house... .

Owned this thing for years... .every time I pulled the brake handle... .or clicked the foot brake... .worked fine.  They aren't complicated.  I'm a pretty big gearhead... .work on lots of equipment.  I can geek out on how machines work.  

FWIW, I also do not believe that BOTH the hand brake AND the foot brake (as they are not connected to each other) were broken when you sold it. They are specifically NOT connected to each other so if one breaks, the other might still work. You know this.

The woman's passive aggressive behavior would trigger nearly anyone, but would much more do so for someone who, while acknowledging that both brakes have a very slim possibility of not working, logistically knows that the chances of both brakes not being in working order is very, very slight. Her impugning your honor without first clarifying ("Were you aware that the brakes on this stroller were not functioning?" was, in fact, rude, passive aggressive and indirect. She was TRYING to put you on the defensive to give herself a better position to get her money back. People who do things in that way don't realize that their behavior is not conducive to working things out in a pleasant manner. They are used to doing that because, as notwendy says, in the customer service world, it doesn't matter if the customer is a jerk, the customer is always right.

BTW, the word "demand" does not necessarily have a negative connotation. The definition is "ask authoritatively or brusquely", and you would have to concede that you did request for the apology in order for her to get the money back, no other choices available. In other words, you made the rules for the exchange, with no compromise available. And if that was important to you, then so be it. In my post, it was simply an observation that being that rigid in your first response may not have been your best choice. It doesn't mean it was a bad choice, but there might have been better in this particular case.

Also, FWIW, while I would not necessarily have wanted an apology, I WOULD have called her on her passive aggressive behavior, if I recognized it in time. We all have our Costanza moments.
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« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2015, 01:46:48 PM »

Here's an angle you might not have considered, FF. Granted, the woman was upset and accusatory, but she may well have worked herself up in a tizzy thinking that you purposefully sold her a broken stroller. Perhaps she has been taken advantage of before. Maybe her budget was really tight and this caused her major distress. Whatever... .we don't know... .

The dynamic we do know is that in order to get a refund from you, she would have to see you again and bring the stroller.

As a woman, I would be concerned if I were in her shoes (although I would never be so rude). The apology as part of the exchange process seems like it was a bit intimidating, coming from a man. She might wonder if you would behave aggressively toward her in person. I don't see anywhere in your conversation an apology from you that it was broken. So, in effect, you were denying her reality without evidence, other than historically it worked some time ago for you. Your kids might have broken it sometime, playing with it.



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« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2015, 01:51:15 PM »

And the ultimate outcome is that she has a potentially broken stroller, while you've got $30.

She probably thinks you're an a-hole, so not only have you not defended your honor, you've given a stranger a very bad impression.
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« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2015, 02:15:23 PM »

It's $30.  

In my higher self,  I'd return the $30 and apologize that I was not aware the brakes were faulty, I would empathize/validate her  b/c it involves her children's safety and so of course she is going to be upset and it's understandable... .and be done with it.

In my reactionary self... .I'd have said something in a what the heck tone like... ." I didn't know the brakes were bad, it worked fine for us, I'm sorry, calm down!  here's your $30 back... .Geesh!"

I don't think I would have demanded an apology from her for speaking to me as though I'm a bad person.  Who cares if she assumes your a bad person?  She doesn't know you.  Also... .It's possible I COULD be a BAD PERSON... .again she doesn't know you.  

I am only human, I sometime actually do do BAD or insensitve things. I'm not perfect.  Nor is she.  I'm not normally THAT attached to being seen as without fault especially by a stranger who is clearly flipped out.  If I am feeling attached to that... .it would be interesting to explore why, but only if it was really bugging me.

bah... .Life is too short.


 

spot on!
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« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2015, 02:21:31 PM »

FWIW, I also do not believe that BOTH the hand brake AND the foot brake (as they are not connected to each other) were broken when you sold it. They are specifically NOT connected to each other so if one breaks, the other might still work. You know this.

Yep... .

Theoretically... .what she says could have happened... .

But... .likelihood is very... .very low. 

Plus... .my remembrance is that there is an independent foot brake on each back wheel... and those two are not connected...

While she didn't go into that level of detail... .I guess she is actually alleging that three brake systems are not working... .hand brake... and two foot brakes.

FF
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« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2015, 02:30:00 PM »

They are used to doing that because, as notwendy says, in the customer service world, it doesn't matter if the customer is a jerk, the customer is always right.

Interesting... .I'm an executive type... .although admittedly not in the retail side of things.  I've been interviewing a lot lately and a common question is about customer service.  My answer is that educating the customer is critical... .that your organization is in charge of setting expectations to live up to... .not the customer.

An organization that tries to live up to the expectations of the general public... is going to chase a lot of weird ideas... .and get off "mission"... .get off focus. 

My experience... .and my "rule" is that you can educate and get about 90% of your customers to be reasonable and happy... .the other 10%... .will be unreasonable... .and should be ignored. 

So... I don't ascribe to customer always right.  There are companies out there and executives that do... .but generally... .I think the count it as a cost of doing business.

Just my 2 cents worth on that... .

FF
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« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2015, 04:28:57 PM »

FF, about the apology you wanted... .

What is it that she could've said to make you actually believe the apology?  :)oes a sincere apology matter or is it the act of apologizing, or?

"I'm very sorry for casting aspersions on your character"... .?

I mean, isn't that pretty clearly placing her in a submissive role, a place where you in no way shape or form are willing to go?  You've said, you will NOT back down.

What exactly are your values here?
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« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2015, 04:50:13 PM »

 

Hmm... .how do I explain this... .? 

If a person is going to bad mouth me... .then... .my interactions with them are done... .I'm not going to persecute them... pursue them or any of that... .but... .the r/s (so to speak) has been damaged by their actions (words) and I'm offering a pathway to restore that.

It's not about submission... authority or any of that.  It's about my character... .if people malign it... .I don't have dealings with them.

I used the word sincere to let her know that just the words don't matter... .attitude matters.  It's hard to write down or explain... .but... .I've had people be sincere with me... .and I've had people mouth words that it appeared to me they didn't mean.

IN writing... I guess I could express it this way... .

"Since the only way I can get my money back is to apologize... .fine... .then I apologize... .now where is my money... "  (my BS detector would go off... )

"Hey... .listen... I was having a bad day... I said some things to you that I wish I hadn't... .I apologize... "  (good to go... .) 

Does this help explain? 

FF
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« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2015, 04:57:31 PM »

 You've said, you will NOT back down.

Yeah... I guess that could be misinterpreted. 

So... if someone is untrustworthy... or maligns me... .or displays other traits that would make me want to cease having things to do with them... .I cease.  I guess that is a better way of explaining not backing down.

I'm also... obviously a very direct and to the point guy... .

BLUF is my favorite acronym... .Bottom Line Up Front... .

Don't beat around the bush. 

So... I let a person know why I'm ceasing whatever it is... .or the pathway to heal it... .and then what they do with it is up to them.

I'm not like walking around in a funk because of this... .because my honor was impugned... .

Hmm... .somehow I don't think I'm explaining this very well. 

FF
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« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2015, 05:13:41 PM »

IN writing... I guess I could express it this way... .

"Since the only way I can get my money back is to apologize... .fine... .then I apologize... .now where is my money... "  (my BS detector would go off... )

"Hey... .listen... I was having a bad day... I said some things to you that I wish I hadn't... .I apologize... "  (good to go... .)  

Does this help explain?  

FF

It explains the difference between what being on the receiving end of a BS apology or a sincere apology feels like, yes.

It's not about submission... authority or any of that.  It's about my character... .if people malign it... .I don't have dealings with them.

Had she given you the BS apology, would you have not accepted it because it didn't feel sincere enough to you, so still no $ back?







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« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2015, 10:14:57 PM »

I admire you ff for being a steadfast guy, a good dad and a great advisor on this board. I see that you've made incredible progress in dealing with your wife and through reading some of your posts, I would say that you have the patience of a saint.

That said, it really surprises me that you took such a hardline stance against the stroller woman, who you feel insulted your honor. I think that is why I'm still pestering you to look at your response to her.

You've got a great new job to look forward to. I think this would be an ideal time to reflect upon some of the comments you've received and see what you can glean from them.

I believe a function of these boards is that we can be mirrors for others. And no one can see himself from all sides. Just isn't possible.

I would hope that you would reread some of these posts because there's a lot of love and affection and concern for you within our words.

It's one thing to stand up for yourself, but to do that without letting in conflicting information, seems like you're missing an opportunity to see yourself from others' perspectives. Several of us have been quite disconcerted by your attitude. Perhaps it's worth looking at that.
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« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2015, 11:11:10 PM »

   Formflier,  When I learned that my husband was BPD, and even for YEARS afterward, I wanted to do and learn everything I could to help us deal with HIS behavior.

I talked to counselors. I told them the truth... that HIS behavior was killing our marriage, that HIS behavior was unhealthy for the kids and for us. And I when they asked me what I was

contributing to this unhealthy situation, I admitted that I was also responsible for letting it happen, for not taking a stand and for letting not setting boundaries.

But in MY head, HE was the one with the problem and I was able to (lovingly of course) smuggly watch from a distance while he, and those OTHER people with problems , struggled,

failed, struggled some more, made mistakes (which I lovingly pointed out and offered to help them with). All the while I was patting myself for becoming a better person, having a REAL

grasp on this BPD thing, identifying other BPD's around me and USING those tools.

    I love my husband, and my kids and , according to friends and family, I'm a genuinely kind , loving person.  I work hard, I love helping people, my kids are my life.  I was not

consciously viewing the world from the cheap seats and judging accordingly.  It was just way safer to BE the one passing out tickets than to ever admit that I honestly was just as

messed up as everyone else.  We ALL have our disorders... .whatever it is... .we're afraid to admit we're wrong, of being humiliated, of being alone, of not being good enough. The people

who look like they have it all together... .they don't... .not totally. Nobody does.

    You give a lot of good advice on these pages to others... .people who are reaching out and hurting.  A great person once said, "The healthy person is not one who is able to love others.

The healthy person is the one who can let someone else love them."

    Or in this case,"The healthy person is not the one who can GIVE advise. The healthy person is someone who can take advice from others". 


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« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2015, 12:43:28 AM »

Fascinating post... .thank you Formflier Smiling (click to insert in post)

I haven't had a chance to read through the continuation threads... .but at first blush...

I think it may have ended at NotWendy post #38.

Woman [paraphrased for rudeness]:  "All the breaks are broken, you jerk, you sold me a piece of equipment that could have put my babies in jeopardy!".  

FF [ alternate response]:  "My apologies. Everything was in fine working order the last time I used the stroller. Shall we set a time for the refund and exchange of the stroller?  ".

You are speaking the truth... everything was working fine the last time you personally used it.  And you are sorry if it was in fact not working properly.  

How do we disarm?  Kindness and 'understanding' sometimes when we are seething, yes... .but wow how potent *gentle* can be.

As NotWendy indicated, I think there may have been a big chance that woman would have issued an apology unsolicited.

What good is a forced or... .lead apology anyway?  That is not even genuine... you may as well just give the money back.

She was offensive for sure, her initial text would put anyone on the defense.  But your good name can not be forced on anyone, it has to be shown through noble action.  You weren't aware of any defect and will readily return funds if the item wasn't in the condition advertised.  She can and will think what she wants, but you can't control that, and you certainly won't win points by treating her like a child and suggesting that she think about her wording more carefully and apologize to you.  Come on, FF, would you do that?... ."Yes, I agree, I don't want to put any child in harms way if that is the case, I'll give you your money back... .BUT FIRST, you need to apologize to me for thinking I'm just a run of the mill hoodlum".  She has no idea of your background, and unfortunately as statistics have it, there are a lot of unsavory folks in the world.

I believe this other person was not personality afflicted, just taken advantage of a few too many times and easy to tip off.

Action... .showing who you are... .that is the real deal, right?  This seems like an opportunity to 'show' who you are versus 'tell' who you are and then 'expect' her to follow the protocol.

Both of you could have approached things differently.  

I think those of us who have been in/ live in "different" high conflict arrangements, we have to balance our hyperawareness with fleas.

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« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2015, 06:19:34 AM »

   She has no idea of your background, and unfortunately as statistics have it, there are a lot of unsavory folks in the world.

And she could be (is most likely) one of them... .

So... .others have discussed how their opinions have changes... as they have read... .reread the threads... and others responses.  The view of the woman has changed for some... .  It's changed for me as well... .

There was a ways back where there was some discussion of independent brakes... .and likelihood of  3 completely independent brake systems failing.  It is statistically possible. 

However... .given the whacky way (IMO) with which this woman approaches the world... .that dramatically decreases the chances that there was a true mechanical failure... .and ups the chances that there was some sort of user error.

I did quite a bit of aircraft accident investigation in my day (not a pleasant thing... I assure you)... .but there is a cold... factual part of that process... .  If I tried to convince a panel of experts that three independent brake systems went "poof"... .all on their own... .I would be laughing stock... .especially with someone that behaves oddly in possession.

Unfortunately... .most aircraft accidents... .when you trace a timeline back... .have crewmembers that exhibit some sort of "odd behavior"... .a "human factor".

Listen:  I make no claim that I thought all this through before sending my text.  But... .our experiences in life contribute to "how" we go about calibrating our BS meter.

Mine was pegged out to max... .and the lights were/are flashing... .now that I have considered it... .I can explain why.


I like this thread... .I really do appreciate all the input... .the different points of view... .keep them coming.  I don't feel attacked... .

Listen... .Naval Aviation ready rooms are lively places... (being polite here... )... plus... .every time I landed on the ship it was video taped... .and I was "graded" (given a debrief) publicly... .in front of the entire ready room by the Landing Signal Officers... .so... .I have a thick hide.

I've got lots to respond to in this thread... .I'll get to it

FF
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« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2015, 06:21:24 AM »

Well I just fired a shot across the bow and I'd like to give ff a chance to respond. 

Cat Familiar,

Good stuff... keep it coming. 

FF
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« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2015, 07:28:35 AM »

I think that this discussion looks at two possible choices.

Either FF is right, and the stroller is not broken, and the woman is in the wrong for her statements/actions.

Or the woman is right, the stroller is broken. FF is in the wrong and owes her $30.

This is one way to look at this. However there is a possibility for error in these two situations. That possibility is that the stroller was not broken when FF sold it, and the stroller broke when the woman attempted to use it. We can not know for certain if this happened, but we also can not know for certain that it did not happen.

Since we have no witnesses about the actual events around the stroller, we can consider all possibilities as well as the fact that we did not know for certain what happened.

So- we consider it from the possibility of the right/wrong angle as above. Or also a choice between two possible mistakes:

It is possible that the woman is scamming FF, in which case FF loses $30 and is scammed as well as insulted.

It is possible that the woman was upset because she paid $30 and got a broken stroller. Although FF knows that he didn't scam her, after this exchange the woman likely feels scammed, and thinks he is a scammer.

Now, FF since there is a chance of the possibility that the stroller broke the first time she used it, no matter how small that probability is, it could happen. Throughout this thread, from what I can see, FF has maintained that he is in the right. It is possible that he is, but there is no way to prove with 100% certainty that this woman does not have a broken stroller, and was presented with a condition for it being refunded, and it is very possible that she felt intimidated and put off by that, to the point that she didn't want to continue the conversation. However, if indeed she has a broken stroller, she is left feeling ripped off.

So, now with all things considered, looking at the possible results of this transaction, one can choose between these situations.

Give the money back after being insulted and risk being scammed $30.

Be known to this woman as the guy who ripped her off and gave her a difficult time about a refund.

In the great scheme of things, I would rather risk being ripped off $30 than to have ripped someone else off. That's how I see things. Now, if it was a large sum of money, I would want to go through the legal system. I know that $30 is not insignificant, especially with a large family and the strain of unemployment.  But in the grand scheme of things, I would rather err on the side of refunding the woman and being scammed than the error of not refunding the money if the stroller was broken.

However, it is a good thing that I am not defending our country and FF is. I tend to err on the softer side of thing, but that isn't necessarily the best decision in all situations either.  People don't all have the same strong points.


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« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2015, 07:35:23 AM »

I buy and sell pre owned goods for a living, and have learned not to take buyers complaints too literally. They are happy, or they are not, with what they purchased. There is a common belief, that some take to extremes, that if you want a refund you band wagon as many complaint as you can onto an item to hard sell your case. This together with genuine feelings of disappointment (regardless of who's fault) results in very aggressive claims.

Often this angers and triggers the seller as they take it personally, making the claim harder rather than smoother.>>escalating defensiveness by both parties.

As a regular seller, I am not defensive at all when an issue is first raised. I allow returns if someone is not happy. I state this upfront, if they then escalate into abusive claims then I will say 'I dont deal with abuse claims, have nice day'. Then disengage. I dont ask for an apology as the behavior is their problem and the consequences theirs to deal with. Seeking apologies just continues the drama.

You can choose to have a satisfied buyer or not, you can choose to get embroiled in drama or not, you can choose to take their attitude personally or not. Their personality is most likely such that they will act like this whenever they get their needs frustrated, it is not personally aimed at you, they struggle to choose otherwise.

You have better executive control of your choices. There is no right or wrong, only the one that makes you feel better about yourself as a person. The one that is not born out of reactiveness. The right choice for you.

Don't get bogged down in details after all its not really about $30.

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« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2015, 07:42:37 AM »

Yes, it isn't all about $30

There is an emotional component to money that is personal and individual- which is, to me, a reason why money can be a big issue in relationships. I think that is what makes this thread topic an interesting discussion.
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« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2015, 07:48:34 AM »

Be known to this woman as the guy who ripped her off and gave her a difficult time about a refund.

I chuckled when I thought of this... .

Hey... .so ... .as we all get to know each other around here... .anyone think that I spent... or will spend... .much time considering how this woman view me?   

FF
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« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2015, 07:54:04 AM »

'I dont deal with abuse claims, have nice day'. Then disengage. 

As someone that likes... .and seeks... .succinct communication... .I like this... .I like it a lot.

My gut reaction is that (assuming I had a time machine... )

Her first text...

I send the response above... .

If she were to come back with a deescalation of some sort... .I can evaluate that... and most likely would have allowed return.

If she sent some other response... .no response from me would be needed.


We have been selling quite a bit of stuff lately... .I don't have an expressly laid out return policy.   I may need to consider this... .

FF
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« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2015, 09:00:48 AM »

I'm getting the impression that you are generally pleased with your actions and their outcome in this situation. You might fine-tune your response to a similar event in the future, but in general you disagree with an analysis that might go something like this:

The woman was rude to you.

You were triggered and were rude in turn.

Returning the woman's money would be the right thing to do now.
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« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2015, 09:28:31 AM »

The woman was rude to you.

You were triggered and were rude in turn.

Returning the woman's money would be the right thing to do now.

Yes... .generally... .ok with it.

More detailed analysis:

Rude (to me) would be asking... or demanding a refund without pleasantries or politeness.  Again... I'm totally ok with other people having different views on "rude".  I can deal with rude... .rude and direct are very close cousins.  I can see how some see my actions as rude... .and others as direct. 

In my world... .you just don't bring an accusation... .or suggestive accusation that you can't back up.  To me... that is way beyond rude... .others may disagree... .I'm ok with that.

There seems to be a thought that I was triggered... .  I guess we would have to define triggered.  Sure... I noticed it... .it was odd.

But... .no feelings like I ever had with my wife... .or others that I have been PO'd at.

I don't think returning the money is the right thing to do... .if she was polite to me... .it would be the polite thing to do back... and I would do it... .even though I may not think I "have to" (in a contractual sense)

Should I see this lady out in public... .I wouldn't go out of my way to speak to her... (like cross a room)... .but if we "bumped into each other"... .I would offer a proper greeting... .something courteous... .

FF

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« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2015, 09:53:10 AM »

I have been a long-time lurker, joined way back in 2006 when it was called the “Nook.” I haven’t posted in years, but read regularly.  I am no longer in a relationship with a pwBPD, but have been in the past and my mother almost certainly has it, although never diagnosed. I like to read the “Staying” board because I learn a lot, I admire all of you who for your commitment, not just to your pwBPD, but to personal growth and healthy relating.  It also reminds me of what life is like in these relationships.

It feels a little strange to come out of posting “retirement” in this post, but it has had a surprising effect on me.  And I apologize if I end up “JADEing” here, but I have been captivated by watching FF open himself to this exchange, and the dynamic which seems to have emerged.

FF certainly doesn’t need me to defend him, I’m impressed with his composure, both in the original incident, as well as this exchange.  His original post was open and invited input, but that input seems to have taken on a subtle (or not so subtle) dimension.

It seems that a number of posters are quite invested in changing FF’s point of view, some who believe he should have handled this differently, and even some who still want him to go back, return the money, even apologize, etc.  Some have characterized his reactions, both in the original transaction, as well as on these posts, as defensive, etc.

I see it completely differently.  I think the woman was rude and needlessly escalated from what might have been a legitimate concern about a transaction.  She was the one who changed the tone from a simple “Hey the brakes don’t work, would you mind returning my money” to what sounded to me like an attack.  In other words she escalated. Now it’s true that FF’s response didn’t DE-escalate, and maybe if he wanted to work on his inner Buddha he could try that next time.  But he also did not escalate further.  For example he didn’t counter-attack, impugn her character, explain why her behavior was unacceptable, or worse, drive over to her house and make a scene, or any number of escalating behavior.  He didn’t escalate or deescalate – he simply held his position calmly, stated that he would need an apology to continue to conversation, return the money, etc.  She had made the interaction unhealthy, he was asserting his preference that the interaction be restored to a healthy respectful tone before anything else happened.

I’m fine with that.  Sure, I might have handled it a little differently, but just as likely I’d have handled it worse because I resented her rudeness.  Remember, she’s the one who made this personal.   

My main reason for posting (again not because FF needs my support, he’s doing fine and seems to welcome this input) is this dynamic that has emerged.  This is a support forum for people in very difficult relationships.  FF asked for input, and it seems totally appropriate to offer perspective, opinions, alternative ways of handling it, etc.  But there seems to be a determined effort to convince FF that he was wrong in his approach, to change his position, to be the “bigger person,” to somehow cater to a rude and difficult woman.  He has chosen his approach, has repeatedly expressed that on balance he feels content with how he handled it, even if he might say things slightly differently with the benefit of hindsight, and seems centered, calm and intentional in his approach.

Yet we are now on the third string of this post, and the thrust seems to be FF should come around.  This dynamic has real resonance for me.  I have had so many examples in my life where I have been essentially “minding my own business,” keeping my side of the street clean, maintaining boundaries, and still have someone else become determined to change my mind, even when my opinions, choices, whatever have absolutely no effect on them.  I’m not talking about where something requires consent between two people to move forward.  I realize you can’t exactly agree to disagree about where to send a child to school or where to spend the holidays as a couple, etc.  There are infinite examples where people need to work things out in a mutually satisfactory way.  I’m talking about things like this post, where FF chose to handle this uncomfortable interaction his way, he was calm, direct, respectful, stated his preference without making demands, accusations, insults, etc.  He has welcomed the input, received it appreciatively, respectfully, and decided that he is still okay with the way he handled it.

And a number of people have decided he needs to change his mind.  And seem quite determined to do so.  It’s too small a sample size to say for sure, but there might be a gender component to this.  This may recreate a common argument between men and women, where a simple “agree to disagree” is somehow not enough.

Anyway, I know I’m JADEing, and there has been a lot of that on this thread, and I know I’m hopping on to a topic really late, and after lurking so long, etc, etc. but this really caught my attention and wanted to chime in.

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« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2015, 10:17:02 AM »

Well, here's another thought: perhaps both formflier and the stroller lady were right about the brakes.

We are relying upon opinions, so we have no facts from either side. Formflier did not check the brakes to make sure they were in working order, yet he told the woman the stroller worked. (I think this is the root of my issue with his response to her.)

The woman claimed the brakes were broken and that he knowingly sold a damaged item. (This was an inappropriate assumption.)

I have no experience with jogging strollers, but I rebuilt a bicycle when I was in college so I assumed that the brakes might be similar. As far as the hand brake, the cable could have been out of adjustment and not very responsive. (Easily fixed)

I Googled "jogging stroller broken brakes" and found this posting:

"I bought the stroller new from Diapers.com in Feb of 2010 before DD2 arrived. It gets mostly mall use or neighborhood walking on paved surfaces. I don't break suddenly or abuse the stroller.

The 2009 has a foot break that pushes 2 pins into slots inside the rear wheels to stop the wheels. I put the break on today to have the stroller roll backwards a few inches then stop. Later, I put the break on in our driveway to unload the girls and the breaks never caught... .2 small plastic pieces popped out from the right side and the stroller would have kept rolling if I hadn't stopped it."

My experience with plastic parts is that even when an object is unused for a couple of years, plastic parts can fail through UV exposure over time, general wear and tear, temperature changes, etc.

Therefore it's possible that both parties to this dispute believed they were correct.

What chump is referring to--and I'm the primary motivator of this extended conversation--yes, I'd like formflier to have a bit of compassion for this woman. Yes, she was inappropriate. Yes, he felt his honor besmirched.

The reality is that she believes he sold her a defective item and it could have endangered her children. She was a bit hysterical about that aspect. But all we have are texts. Formflier, in my opinion, did not address the issue that the stroller might be broken, he just acted offended and asked for a "sincere apology" as condition of retuning the buyer's money. That to me was haughty and inappropriate. If he behaved as kindly to her as the fellow we see on this forum, I would bet that she would have gladly apologized when she returned the stroller. Then, with stroller in hand, he could have adjusted the hand brake for her (or not) and determined whether the foot brake was working.

I brought up the Christian angle because I think Jesus taught not to judge but to have compassion. Formflier instead chose to go Old Testament on this woman, saying she had "sinned" by casting aspersions on his character. To me, character is within, not vulnerable to some random stranger's opinion. I would not feel honorable the way this transaction ended if I were the seller.

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« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2015, 10:22:43 AM »

Excerpt
Hey... .so ... .as we all get to know each other around here... .anyone think that I spent... or will spend... .much time considering how this woman view me?

Her view of you is that you were not honorable in selling her a broken stroller.  Your entire response is a reaction to her view and her assumption of you as not honorable.  In your response to her I think you said she saw you as a bad person and you felt insulted. 

Here you say her view of you is unimportant.  And you were not triggered.

Scratching head.  There is a disconnect here.

It's $30.00.

I think you said you didn't check the stroller before selling it.  The lady suggested that it might be a good idea to do that before selling something that children will be placed in.  That seems reasonable.  I think both you and lady could have handled this differently and better. We see that she was triggered.  You say you were not.

Scratching head.

FF, you seem doggedly convinced that your approach to this interaction was the best course of action.

I will sign off for now, and wish everyone the best.  Have a great weekend!






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« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2015, 10:24:18 AM »

  Formflier instead chose to go Old Testament on this woman

Negative... the basic structure of my approach is new testament.   Matthew 18.  Certainly the approach is informed by old testament teaching... builds on it. 

FF
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« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2015, 10:36:39 AM »

Here you say her view of you is unimportant.  And you were not triggered.

View is unimportant... .her words to me are.  Her internal thoughts about me are of no concern... .what comes out of her "mouth" (or text through a keyboard) are...

 

I think you said you didn't check the stroller before selling it.

On that day... .and didn't ask her to give it a check out.  She was most concerned with how it would fit in her vehicle.  So... we demonstrated the folding mechanism...  She opened and shut it a few times... and then it wouldn't fit in the trunk.  So... she somehow wedged it in her back seat... .and off she went.

The stroller had been used by me and my family... .we cleaned it up... .and did not notice anything amiss.  No brakes would... .IMO... have been noticed.  I never suggested... .or was asked... if I did a full diagnostic or tune up.

FF, you seem doggedly convinced that your approach to this interaction was the best course of action.

For those that have seen my posting and advice style... .(I'll give you a chance to guess my next sentence... .)... You know I'm a good... .better... .best... .kinda guy.

My response was far from best... .if I wanted to put in the effort... .I might be able to argue myself (doubtful you guys would come along... .   into thinking that I did better.

Right now... .my thoughts... .

What I did:  Good.

Give her the opportunity to clarify:  Better

"I don't do abusive requests" (or something similar to a Waverider response)... .Best.

Waverider,

Coming from a guy that likes to say things succinctly... .my hat is off to you.  My guess is that you got there through a lot of hard work... . 

FF





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« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2015, 06:36:57 PM »

Hi formflier!  I see you are very succinct and I tend to write novels so tl;dr ---> I think you are doing just fine here! And yes, it is all about boundaries!

You impress me with your patience and ability to not take things personally in these threads.  I think people have not seen or maybe forgot where you said on the first thread (post #29 I think) that you would have done things a bit differently now that you have had a chance to think things through and would have said to Buggy Caper Lady "help me understand" or where you said you liked the alternative response offered by Offroad just a few posts up from that one. 

In case you need   one more opinion about this, I think you were far kinder than I would have been especially **after** thinking this through for the last 24 hours.  I would have gone with "It is apparent you have me all figured out.  Too bad because you are missing out on the opportunity to learn just how kind I really am and you just lost out on getting your $30 bucks back." and then I would have donated the money to a local Passive Aggressive/Emotionally Manipulative Anonymous group or something.   

I said I need to learn not to be such a harda*s when dealing with highly manipulative and passive aggressive people in both work and personal situations and I have learned a lot reading these three (!) threads through but this lady to me represents everything that is wrong with so many people today.  I refuse to reward that behavior and I will cut it off and or walk away when the relationship is insignificant to me.  I have several 'friends' with kids who pull the 'my children' and the mama bear emotional blackmail crap of Buggy Caper Lady to hide their own poor behaviors... .and we are now no more than acquaintances by my choice.  I just do not have it in me to even listen to that for more than a second.  I had a lifetime of that with a uBPD mother and a passive aggressive enabler of a non-father.   

I do think that what you have encountered with these threads will help you in your new job (congrats!) especially if you will be working in a civilian (is that the right wording?) position.  It will require a much softer touch and there are ways to do that without losing your honor or going against your values.  I have a feeling that is why you are willing to stick this through here.  Again, you are far more patient and tolerant than I.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  I also have a feeling you will figure things out fairly quickly.

BTW, if you are still confused about what is passive aggressive behavior like you mentioned somewhere in the first (?) thread on this topic, I would strongly recommend reading up on it.  Do a google search.  Not one thing you did in this thread or while responding to the Buggy Caper Lady could reasonably be called passive aggressive. 

BTW no. II, this issue here is definitely a boundary issue.  Both with the woman and with the responses on this thread.  I forget where but at some point you said you wondered about that.  Definitely a boundary issue.

Also, to chump... .darn you're good!  I read your post in between my appointments.  I was at Dunkin' D using the free wifi and got a few strange looks when I kept saying "YES!" out loud at various things in your post.  So glad you came out of lurker mode.
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« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2015, 07:41:17 PM »

Well it seems the difference in the responses come down to whether you want to come from a punitive or a compassionate place.
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« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2015, 08:03:19 PM »

I am amazed this topic is still going; it seems so clear cut to me.

She chose to frame her complaint about the stroller as a personal attack on a man's character. FF set a boundary that he will not be treated like that.

He offered to take the stroller back in exchange for a deserved apology. She refused.

End of story.

What am I missing here?  


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« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2015, 08:24:11 PM »

Well it seems the difference in the responses come down to whether you want to come from a punitive or a compassionate place.

Yep... .which is why I followed the new testament model of compassion.

FF
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« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2015, 08:36:16 PM »

Honor is no different than freedom. If you are not willing to defend it then you do not deserve to keep it.

It is a sad commentary on society that we don't understand that.

 
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« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2015, 08:37:27 PM »

Here's the deal: she thought formflier had lied to her when he told her the stroller was in good working order. That's why she was so angry.
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« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2015, 08:39:22 PM »

Here's the deal: she thought formflier had lied to her when he told her the stroller was in good working order. That's why she was so angry.

I agree.

It explains her behavior.

It does not justify it.

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« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2015, 08:40:53 PM »

Cole, as a former police officer, I'm sure you saw lots of stupid violence over honor that was about something utterly insignificant.

I think it's fine to defend it, but it could have been done in a way where her concerns were addressed. Like "It worked when we last used it and I'm offended that you think I tried to rip you off."

Instead, formflier didn't say anything about the condition of the stroller at first and just asked for an apology for the lecture as part of the exchange of money.
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« Reply #92 on: August 21, 2015, 08:50:32 PM »

I wonder what would have happened had the woman's husband shown up at the assigned "apology" appointment, having heard his wife's version of this story.
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« Reply #93 on: August 21, 2015, 08:51:04 PM »

Cole, as a former police officer, I'm sure you saw lots of stupid violence over honor that was about something utterly insignificant.

I think it's fine to defend it, but it could have been done in a way where her concerns were addressed. Like "It worked when we last used it and I'm offended that you think I tried to rip you off."

Instead, formflier didn't say anything about the condition of the stroller at first and just asked for an apology for the lecture as part of the exchange of money.

I saw plenty of stupid behavior caused by people like her who over-react and unduly insult others. There was no need for her to get personal.

I applaud FF for setting a standard that such behavior is unacceptable.  

I wonder what would have happened had the woman's husband shown up at the assigned "apology" appointment, having heard his wife's version of this story.

The results would be of her doing.



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« Reply #94 on: August 21, 2015, 08:56:36 PM »

I find it amazing that so many are stating what FF should have done differently. That he did not defend himself properly.

How about her? "Hi, I am the lady who just bought the stroller. The brakes do not work. Can I return it and get my money back?"

If she had said that, this thread would not exist.  
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« Reply #95 on: August 21, 2015, 09:06:06 PM »

I wonder what would have happened had the woman's husband shown up at the assigned "apology" appointment, having heard his wife's version of this story.

He would have probably been happy to be able to talk directly with someone... .without beating around the bush.

Zero chance he would have been emotionally blackmailed... .or scratched his head wondering what I meant... .

FF
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« Reply #96 on: August 21, 2015, 09:06:27 PM »

The lady was very rude. She started it.

If the lady had started this thread, she would hear a number of things she wouldn't like.

I think this thread is of interest to me because I thought maybe formflier would have liked to have done things differently, especially after he had a couple of days to reflect. For me, personally, I would feel ashamed if I had played his role, and the $30 would feel like a talisman of shame each time I considered it.

I'm satisfied now that formflier does not feel shame.
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« Reply #97 on: August 21, 2015, 09:24:31 PM »

CatFamiliar, FF has said several times that he would have said things differently after some of the the discussion here.  Way back on the very first thread that he started on this incident.  Your suggestion here ("I think it's fine to defend it, but it could have been done in a way where her concerns were addressed. Like "It worked when we last used it and I'm offended that you think I tried to rip you off." has been addressed already though it is hard to tell that now that the original 3 threads have been consolidated and pruned.  But he did say he would have changed how he handled it many many posts ago.  


Excerpt
Cole, as a former police officer, I'm sure you saw lots of stupid violence over honor that was about something utterly insignificant.

With all due respect, you do not get to define or decide what is significant for someone else.  I see this as a boundary issue on your part.  You get to have an opinion but that is about it.  

Excerpt
Well it seems the difference in the responses come down to whether you want to come from a punitive or a compassionate place.

That is far too simplistic and biased in your positions favor IMO.  :)efine compassion.  Is it compassionate to allow a grown woman to get away with passive aggressive and emotionally manipulative behavior?  Is is compassionate to allow her to continue to use her children as a shield for her own negligence in not checking the brakes?

When I posted earlier and said that I would have told her I would have gone with "It is apparent you have me all figured out.  Too bad because you are missing out on the opportunity to learn just how kind I really am and you just lost out on getting your $30 bucks back."... . I was nOt coming from a punitive place.  I was actually remembering back to an incident that happened when I was in my early 20's, got mouthy, passive aggressive and tried to prey on a AAA tow truck guys sympathies during a snow storm by being a drama queen.  It was 9 am, I was at work, sick and could not get home because my car did not run.  He told me that he did not deserve to be talked to that way and that he would get to me in turn.  Guess what time he came to the office to tow my car and me home?  8pm at night.  Yep.  The guy spanked me hard and I deserved it.  To this day, I cringe when i think about it but if I could see him again I would thank him for kicking me out of that place of being a drama-queen-victimized-arrogant-jerk.  I have no illusions that he did it to teach me a lesson.  He was being a hard-a*s about it.  I am thankful the jerk put me in my place.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

You say punitive and in one of the pruned responses when the threads were consolidated someone (you?) called FFs behavior 'jerk-like'.  I see it very differently.

The question I have for you and the others who have tried so hard to get FF to change is position is *why*?   
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« Reply #98 on: August 21, 2015, 09:39:11 PM »

I think it's fine to defend it, but it could have been done in a way where her concerns were addressed. Like "It worked when we last used it and I'm offended that you think I tried to rip you off."

There seems to be an insistence that I didn't address the concern the lady implied... suggested... stated... .whatever is was that she did.

She was offered a pathway to something she kinda... .sorta... .said I was unable to do... .or wouldn't do... or whatever.  Get her money back.

Yesterday I realized I made a booboo on my Autozone rewards (remember... I'm a gearhead... .do most of my own auto work... .many times when my wife thought I should have been doing housework... .)

One place on the website said I had rewards to spend... .one place said they expired... .it was pretty confusing.  I was concerned about the $$.  I called... .was polite... asked the person how they were doing... expressed some confusion about what I was reading... .and that I would appreciate any help they could provide.  I was very conscious to make sure that there was nothing about my demeanor that said "complaint".

Turns out... .I was supposed to have already spent the reward... and it expired.  Totally my fault.  The person restored the award... found one expired from a year or two ago... and restored it as well.  I thanked them profusely.  Today I went in a store... spent my rewards and then some.

I was polite... .there was really no special effort... .no extra kiss a$$... that's just the way I am.  In this instance it paid off.

Couple days ago... I tried to talk my way into a special deal on tires at Firestone... .the guy looked up my record... saw all my previous purchases... but declined to offer a deal.  He's not the guy I normally talk to... that guy was off.  (no big deal... I didn't hate the guy... .or thing bad of him)  Called back today... .talked to normal guy.  Had a great conversation... .he's known I'll be bugging him for tires for my duramax truck for a while... .we did some polite haggling... said he could get me out the door for $847 (almost a couple hundred better than my deal from couple days before).  I told him the truck would be in his shop in couple hours.  He wasn't there when I got there... .but he had written the ticket up for his guys... .I tossed them the keys... .looked at the ticket... .$798.

This is the way I do business... .it works for me.  Works for me when I sell stuff as well.  I enjoy talking to enjoyable... .happy people.  

From there... I went to pick up another car that had been in shop for a while... and still wasn't fixed because of a back ordered part from Chrysler.  Well... .the shop foreman said it would be simpler if I could just pay the ticket in a couple weeks... .when that part came in.  Probably close to a $500 bill he decided to wait on.  Tossed me keys and I drove away.

So... saying this to explain that I do live in a small town.  If word got around that I was a "jerk" to a lady... .I'm positive that people would ask what she did... .positive.

People know me... .the know my Dad... .and my Granddad.  We're cut from the same cloth.  We'll tell it to you straight... .we behave as proper gentleman should.  There is a misconception out there that a gentleman is gentle in all situations... .no so... .(IMO).

FF

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« Reply #99 on: August 21, 2015, 09:43:01 PM »

I don't read personality disorder at all in the woman's words. I read a woman who was upset that she'd been sold a defective stroller and was overreacting and being rude because she was worried that she was being ripped off and because it could have potentially impacted her child's safety.

We all make assumptions. That doesn't mean they're correct.

We usually make these assumptions based on our experiences. Perhaps the woman had been burned before in purchases, and assumed you had knowingly done so. After all, you assumed she might have a personality disorder, based on your experiences with BPD.

You both wound up triggering each other, and so the exchange was far more emotionally charged than the situation called for.

She was rude, and you were rude. And in the end, no one really got what they wanted.

I am very fond of saying - "is this the hill I want to die on?"

Because yes, I've reacted obstinately when I felt my character or values were being impugned. It's human nature to feel defensive in such situations. But, over the years as I've been working on this very issue, I've come to realize that it is rarely the best course of action.

Actions speak louder than words. People can and will say whatever they want, behind my back or to my face. But it's hard to argue with consistent actions.

Having one's honor impugned is hurtful. But the honorable action would have been to give the refund without making it contingent on an in-person apology. (Honestly, as a woman, I would feel very uneasy if a man I didn't know asked for an in-person, sincere apology.)

In short - I understand where both of you were coming from. And yes, both of you could have handled it better. But we're all just human. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #100 on: August 21, 2015, 09:48:55 PM »

And in the end, no one really got what they wanted.

Um... .I did... .  I'm satisfied with what I "got".

Luckily I was in a position where the options I was able to present were all acceptable

Status quo... or refund and apology...

Either way... I'm good.

FF
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« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2015, 09:55:59 PM »

Well, have a glass of tiger's blood on me.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2015, 10:01:03 PM »

Honestly, as a woman, I would feel very uneasy if a man I didn't know asked for an in-person, sincere apology.

I once purchased something and arranged to meet the seller to pick it up. I chose a public place and informed my family where I was going. I was concerned about my safety. So many frightening stories in the media. The man seemed quite nice when I met him. I didn't feel uncomfortable at all, but still, it is important to be cautious.

Some time later I bought a used item from a young woman. She also arranged to meet me in a public place and was very careful around me. She told me she had received some strange phone calls from potential buyers that made her nervous.

This isn't about what happened with FF or an attempt to change his mind. I wanted to highlight that the media has made us all aware of not so upright people selling things on Craigs list and other media, and that there are unethical people out there taking advantage of possible buyers. I think both sellers and buyers would try to avoid meeting a person they think may be angry at them.

I think it is a good idea to err on the side of caution. Buyers and sellers may consider the worst possible scenario when dealing with each other.
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« Reply #103 on: August 22, 2015, 01:57:29 AM »

formflier,

How do you see this from a control dynamic?

T
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« Reply #104 on: August 22, 2015, 06:36:44 AM »

formflier,

How do you see this from a control dynamic?

T

Hmmm... .  well... .I suppose I like to control my environment... .what I experience. 

Not sure if this is where you were leaning or not.

FF
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« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2015, 11:55:51 AM »

I think Turkish is getting at this:

jogging stroller: Let's call the broken brakes an oversight and make our returns with no hurt feelings (3:15 PM)

Me: no (3:15 PM)

Me: stroller... .genuine in person apology,, and you get your $30 back (3:16 PM)

Is this "problem solving" or "wanting to be right"? Wanting her to say you are right? Wanting us (members here) to say you are right?

Was classing her into "BPD category"  stepping it up even further. Healthy vs unhealthy.

Right. Wrong.

Healthy. Unhealthy.

Karpman's drama triangle theory delves into this (see article on main site)... .Some of us adopt a "drama" personality in life - it's becomes us and how we deal with things.

Do you see how she adopted a drama approach initially?  Rather than just ask to return the stroller, she attacked you personally.

But... .

Do you see how she yielded and you opted for drama rather than solution.

Right. Wrong.

Healthy. Unhealthy.

If we don't want drama in our life, we have to shake the drama personality.

Why did you pick drama is the hard question here.  How often do you pick drama is an even harder one.

What do you think?
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« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2015, 01:40:29 PM »

Do you see how she yielded and you opted for drama rather than solution.

More later on this... .but the quick response.

I already had a solution that I was good with.  If she had yielded and said her words were an oversight and she probably erred at not checking it out enough... .I would have been fine with that.

She was willing to let bygones be bygones on what I had brought to the table to be "fixed".

And still wanted her side "fixed".

I was fine with mutual happiness... .or mutual status quo.  Perhaps another solution would have been presented which might have been acceptable... .we'll never know.

More later...

FF
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« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2015, 01:42:57 PM »

Why did you pick drama is the hard question here.  

I don't understand where the drama comes in. FF did not attack her in return or attempt to escalate. He simply stated his terms for a return of the $30, that being an apology for a personal attack. Or am I perceiving what happened incorrectly?  

What I see is someone taking a stand against a behavior which permeates our fast food society and damages our culture. "I want it my way, right now. And if you mess up it is my right to go off on you and attack you personally." I work in the security industry as a consultant to C level executives on policy, procedure, HR, and physical security measures. Every client I have is installing cameras and panic buttons in their public contact areas because of people with this mindset. Universities, hospitals, government agencies and large corporations alike all have to deal with this issue. And companies are taking a stand. Many retailers are reviewing video of these incidents and telling rude customers not to come back.  

Had FF not called her on her actions, he would have been reinforcing her behavior and she would have done the same to the next person who made her mad. I would have handled it very much the same way he did with no regrets.        
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« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2015, 01:51:14 PM »

 

Cole,

I have similar thoughts... .you have my mindset correct.  I'm going to read the drama article... .triangle... .and then come back to this.

I sent that article to someone in another thread... .so... probably good for me to study up on it...

To me... drama would have been "How could you say that?  My life is over... .!  You (insert female derogatory term)... .how dare you speak to me this way... .  I think you are BPD... .  etc etc etc... ."

Perhaps I will change my mind after reading the article...

FF
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« Reply #109 on: August 22, 2015, 01:56:09 PM »

There is a difference between the boundary of not letting people treat you poorly and that of having to be right.

Skip alluded to the drama triangle. It's not a simple concept. We can be in any role at one time, as well as play all the roles with ourselves. All roles lead to "victim".

The way someone might play this out with oneself is with an addiction. I feel bad- (victim)-- so I will have a drink, shop, gamble (rescuing oneself from the bad feeling.

The way we can play this out with others is - This person did/said/ X to me ( victim) so I will act to protect myself from this (rescuer)- however, by taking on the role of rescuer, we then become the persecutor to the person. That person feels like a victim and so on.

With three people - all three can take on the roles with each other. This was a common pattern in my FOO.

Skip mentioned avoiding drama. That can be a motivator too. The distinction is between avoiding drama and avoiding conflict and so not standing up for yourself.

How do you know the difference- that is a tough one. The key to this that I use is to be aware of how I feel. Do I feel like a victim- am I thinking that someone did something to me?

The other role that is one I can stumble on is rescuer. It is really hard for me to avoid trying to help and fix situations for people- but I have to look at it as having faith in their ability to manage their own feelings and problems, and learn to manage my own discomfort when people are upset. 

But one role is no better than the other. They are all unhealthy relationship styles. If the goal for us is to learn new healthier ways to interact with people, we have to not get on the triangle. It isn't an easy thing to do though. Sometimes it is trial and error, and practice.
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« Reply #110 on: August 22, 2015, 01:56:28 PM »

Perhaps I will change my mind after reading the article...

FF

I hope not. The ability to take a stand against what you saw as wrong and not back down is a strong leadership trait missing in the boardroom. It says something about your ability to handle this new executive level position.  
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« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2015, 02:02:29 PM »

Perhaps I will change my mind after reading the article...

FF

I hope not. The ability to take a stand against what you saw as wrong and not back down is a strong leadership trait missing in the boardroom. It says something about your ability to handle this new executive level position.  

I agree... .

However... .even more important is a leader/person... .that is open to new information (or that their situational awareness is off)... and not afraid to say they are wrong... .or could do something better.

There is an old pilot joke and cartoon about "Hey... what are those mountain goats doing way up here in the clouds"... when you think you are flying along... fat dumb and happy(common navy saying... )... .out of danger.  Intent of that cartoon is good to have in real life... .

I could have done this better.  From what I've learned here... .I will do things better in the future.

But... .the basic approach is still the same.

Instead of attempting to rock and cuddle her emotional state and hope she behaved better... .I succinctly set a pathway for her to get what she wanted... .and to protect myself from "bad behavior".

I would set it differently... .use different words... .but the intent would be the same... .

That's where I'm at now...

FF
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« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2015, 02:02:53 PM »

There is a difference between the boundary of not letting people treat you poorly and that of having to be right.

And there is a difference between having to be right and standing up for what is right. Where do you think FF stands in this? I believe the latter.  
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« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2015, 02:07:11 PM »

FF, I think what you are saying is that we associate drama with the idea of the "drama queen" -over the top emotional responses to things that don't warrant them.

But drama is more broad than that. It is an unhealthy way of relating to people. It is "drama" because it involves playing a role. These roles can be automatic and subconscious.

I think the role we see as most like the "drama queen" is victim, but victim is also about how we perceive things. If we see something as acting on us, and we get defensive, we can be in victim role.

When is it healthy to act as rescuer and when it is not could be subtle. As a member of the armed forces, you know that the role of defender is vital to our survival as a country. We also know that there are people who are truly victims.

However, taking the perception of victim can be limiting in our choices of how to respond, and so this is why we are encouraged to take another perspective if possible, and see things from different angles- to open up possibilities to change and for personal growth.

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« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2015, 02:10:52 PM »

Yes, now we are getting somewhere.

Stroller lady was on fire.

We address the fire first and normal repair would have flowed from that, organically.  Including apology.  This is how it works with normal range folks.  Always has.  

If FF refuses to address the fire, it will come off as aggressive.  It IS aggressive.  Aggression can come accross very loudly w/out fists and profanity.  We all know this.  We all feel it.  He has to acknowledge the fire.  He can do it in his own style, but to ignore the fire entirely is aggressive.

FF ignored the fire entirely AND instead demanded a woman on fire provide soothing balm to his heat rash in person and with genuine sincerity.  

Drama.

FF in role of victim, rescuing himself by ignoring the fire,  and quickly moving into a turn as  the peresecutor.   And all the fantasies that go  with these roles, the fantasy that I am a blameless and helpless victim, the fantasy that I am always due honor and respect from all peoples at all times, the fantasy that I did nothing to help support and create the situation I am in.  All of this fuels drama interactions.

When I hear a lot of talk about honor and respect (in the context of difficult interactions and being entitled to it... .not in the context of serving your country or as a moral underpinning for life in general) I get nervous and I think uh oh... .drama is coming, this is going to be sticky.

I am impressed that she didn't deepen the drama in response but actually offered a viable path out mid way ... and this was rejected in favor of more drama.  

Repair and exit.

If no repair is possible... .exit even faster.

Why choose drama?  Very good question.

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« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2015, 02:14:52 PM »

We also know that there are people who are truly victims.

I spent about 10 years working on the CIT (Counter Illicit Trafficking) effort.  :)rugs... guns... .and also people.  Those caught up in human trafficking and slavery... .man... .that is bad stuff.  Heartbreaking...

However, taking the perception of victim can be limiting in our choices of how to respond,  

Interesting... .I'll consider that.  

Never once did I think that I was "victimized" by what the lady said to me.

However... .had I let it go... .given her the $30... .most likely I would have described it as "being used" (which is on the victim spectrum... .I guess)

I believe that is a minor part of the reason I responded that way... .the main reason... .is that is the way I have responded for most of my life... . That is the way people I respect (father, granddad... .etc etc) act.

The leaders I respected most... got along with the most... learned the most from... .would "shoot" you in a heartbeat (read a$$ chewing)... .but then it was over.  The situation was fixed... .message sent... .it's over... .your mistakes don't follow you around... .period.

Had the lady apologized... .I would have forgotten the incident... .actually would have thought more highly of her.

FF
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« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2015, 02:15:01 PM »

I think to try to answer your question Cole, and why this thread has gotten so much attention is that it isn't about whether or not FF did the "right" thing, whether he is standing up for what is right or having to be right.

It was about taking this incident and looking at it in different ways, so that perhaps a new behavior could be learned.

Why do we need to learn new behaviors?

Because we are the other half of our spouses and for many of us, we are in a behavioral pattern with them, a pattern that matches our dysfunctions. It is sometimes referred to as a dance.

We do this dance well. Some of us learned it as kids. However, if we are not happy in our r/s- we need to learn new steps. The problem is that these steps are new, they are not comfortable to us. They may not even work, but we know that what we are doing doesn't always work either.

The idea- and it seemed to some that we are taking issue with FF - but that isn't the point. It is that the steps we know, the ones that feel comfortable and right to us, may be the ones that can keep us stuck, so maybe we can try something different.
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« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2015, 02:17:25 PM »

If FF refuses to address the fire

Not my fire to address... .it's hers.  Had she been polite... .I probably would have helped her with her fire... .

FF
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« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2015, 02:20:01 PM »

Victim can mean anytime we think someone is doing something to us-

If we re-frame the incident using the triangle model

Using us, being unfair, anytime we take on actions to rescue/defend ourselves- it can lead us into persecutor role.

That lady who called you was in Victim mode... .she thought you did something unfair to her ( sold her a bad stroller) and so she went over the top defending herself and so became the

Persecutor when she insulted you.  To which you stepped in as defender ( rescuer) and came off to her as a Persecutor. ... .

and so on. This is a model of relationships. It isn't intended to be critical of anyone here. It can be used for our own insights and personal growth.
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« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2015, 02:52:43 PM »

If FF refuses to address the fire

Not my fire to address... .it's hers.  Had she been polite... .I probably would have helped her with her fire... .

FF

Exactly. She is responsible for her actions.


Notwendy,

I get what you are saying. However, working with a BPD spouse and dealing with a rude stranger are different things.   

MaybeSo,

If defending my honor or- more importantly- that of a friend or family member is drama, then I am proud to be a drama queen.

I don't look for reasons to be offended. In fact, I am pretty easygoing. But to let things go every time just to avoid "drama" is as wrong as going out and looking for it. Let's go to Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. The vices are excess and deficiency. The virtue is the mean, or correct amount. I think FF hit that mean with his measured response.   

   
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« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2015, 03:34:18 PM »

Excerpt
If FF refuses to address the fire

Not my fire to address ... .it's hers.(This is a victim stance. Victim role is blameless and usually moves us directly to role of Persecutor)   Had she been polite (and here is the Persecutor role, the P is in the one-up position at top of the drama triangle and sits in judgment) ... .I probably would have helped her with her fire... .(and here is the Rescue role)

Study the drama triangle article.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2015, 04:20:18 PM »

What a great thread!  Its duration speaks to the complex issues in play, and how human relationships are so layered and interdependent.  Paying attention to the dynamics of drama, control, right vs wrong, one-up/one-down, etc, I believe is exactly where the essence or truth of the thing lies.

This is why I love the posture of respectfully “agreeing to disagree.”  So much of human drama comes from not accepting another’s point of view.  It’s not enough to seek their cooperation, or a negotiated compromise, we want them to AGREE with us.  In other words confirm our rightness, and sooth any discomfort we may have with our own vulnerability, fear, or other unintegrated parts of ourselves. 

And if you want to find out a lot about a person, just ask if they’re willing to “agree to disagree.”

And this is why I have been so admiring of FF’s position.  Starting with the original interaction, and then wading through pages and pages of feedback, he has assiduously held to a neutral position, with almost no defensiveness, no trying to prove the other person wrong.

This is where needing to be right so often veers off track, when we’re not confident enough in our own position that we go a step further and try to convince the other of their wrongness.  With very few exceptions, FF has avoided that here, and I respect it.

And that’s why I chimed in.  It seemed that a number of posters, beyond offering perspective, points of view, support, etc, had stepped over that invisible line into trying to convince FF that he was wrong.

I didn’t see how asking for an apology as a condition for continued interaction was rude or shaming or trying to convince another person of their wrongness, just drawing a boundary and being content to stay on your own side of the street.  Someone else might call that smug or something similar, but that already implies a responsibility to a complete stranger who so far has shown herself to be pretty disrespectful of boundaries.  Calmly choosing to opt out of further interactions may be infuriating to some people, but in and of itself causes no harm to them.  True, if a person is insecure in their position and someone takes offense, it’s not uncommon for them to be defensive when asked for an apology.  So while it may have been somewhat predictable that FF’s request for an apology would lead to a shame response in another person, they are responsible for their own feelings and reactions.

I realize as I type this that I’m flirting with my own rule about not trying to convince others of their wrongness (another way of trying to be right).  I hope I am staying respectfully on my side of the line of “agreeing to disagree” while also shedding light on how those of us on this side of discussion are looking at it.

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« Reply #122 on: August 22, 2015, 04:41:27 PM »

 

While I may "fit" in the drama triangle (not saying I agree that I do)... .I want to let you know about the models I was actually using and thinking about.

I was thinking about a negotiating model when having the interaction... .

I was trying to drive to a solution that I (and hopefully both) would be ok with.

And... was trying to do this quickly (remember... I'm a BLUF guy... .Bottom Line Up Front).

My responsibility to the other party... .and when negotiating... .is... .if the tables were turned... .would I feel comfortable accepting the deal.  If I wouldn't... .then I would want to examine whether or not I was taking advantage of someone... .rather than conducting business... .and making a profit

That was the model that I was using from the business side of things.  The majority of my thoughts were centered on business... .and "business principle"... .the dollar amount is irrelevant. 

From the personal side of things... .the general model I was using was Matthew (New Testament).  This was much less emphasis on this... but it was there.

If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.



FF

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« Reply #123 on: August 22, 2015, 05:03:54 PM »

People get emotional when it involves their kids. Have you met someone who's against vaccinations? Impossible to reason with
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« Reply #124 on: August 22, 2015, 05:42:53 PM »

Excerpt
MaybeSo,

If defending my honor or- more importantly- that of a friend or family member is drama, then I am proud to be a drama queen.

I don't look for reasons to be offended. In fact, I am pretty easygoing. But to let things go every time just to avoid "drama" is as wrong as going out and looking for it. Let's go to Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. The vices are excess and deficiency. The virtue is the mean, or correct amount. I think FF hit that mean with his measured response.

Gosh I know nothing about Aristole's Nicomachean Ethics.   

I don't advocate for conflict avoidance. 

I strive for self-responsibility and leading with kindness while maintaining healthy boundaries.  Taking good care of my own boundaries is part of self-responsibility.    Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)


My all time heroes are these masters that work with and interact with people that just have such skill at repair…no matter how the person is showing up... .from the best to the absolute worst you see in people….they always lead with this incredible decency and kindness, and they are so completely unaffected and so NOT entitled… and they just hit it out if the park.  I am talking about incredibly boundaried people here,  these are no push-overs.  That's what I strive for.  I'm far from it, but it's what I strive for. 

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« Reply #125 on: August 22, 2015, 05:50:36 PM »

My all time heroes are these masters that work with and interact with people that just have such skill at repair…no matter how the person is showing up... .from the best to the absolute worst you see in people….they always lead with this incredible decency and kindness, and they are so completely unaffected and so NOT entitled… and they just hit it out if the park.  I am talking about incredibly boundaried people here,  these are no push-overs.  That's what I strive for.  I'm far from it, but it's what I strive for. 

Might take a step back and think about the "role" that I was playing here.

Business... negotiation.  And... I was fine with status quo... .still am. 

No need to repair... .I'll go do something else with my time.

Switch my hats:  When I was Skipper... .I had all kinds of people in my office... .with all kinds of human problems.  Box of tissues was never far.  Repair was on my mind... .I did it often... .I did it well. 

The worst... .absolute worst... .and the time I would have to be at my best... .was knocking on a door... .and letting a wife... .or parents know that their Sailor had been killed in action.  If the system worked well... they had no warning... .they all new what a uniform in their door meant... .  Repair doesn't even begin to describe what is needed.

I know what you mean... .some people have the knack for soothing all that they come across.

That's not me.  I'm comfortable with that.

FF
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« Reply #126 on: August 22, 2015, 06:31:19 PM »

Excerpt
The worst... .absolute worst... .and the time I would have to be at my best... .was knocking on a door... .and letting a wife... .or parents know that their Sailor had been killed in action.  If the system worked well... they had no warning... .they all new what a uniform in their door meant... .  Repair doesn't even begin to describe what is needed.

Everyone is wounded and in need of repair. Every single person on this earth has been broken or will be broken.  It's the the price of admission.  Every interaction we have is with another wounded soul.

Excerpt
I know what you mean... .some people have the knack for soothing all that they come across.

That's not me.  I'm comfortable with that. 

You obviously have skill in this area or you wouldn't be on this board.

BTW... .my favorite bible story is when Jesus lost his sh** and kicked some a** in the temple with those merchants.

I guess everyone loses their sh** sometimes. 

Keeps me humble.
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« Reply #127 on: August 22, 2015, 06:52:31 PM »

THE PROBLEM

Two people has opposite initial perceptions of an issue that is causing problems

THE GOAL

Determine the actual problem and reach a fair resolution

THE OBSTACLE

Both parties feel like they are being attacked/taken for a ride/cheated

THE PATH TO RESOLVING

Not inflaming the others initial perceptions, so the real issue can be addressed without over heightened emotions clouding things

TRAPS TO FALL INTO

Forgetting that we can only control us, and attempting to use demands rather than boundaries. Demanding anything of someone who is already entrenched in victim mode is only going to further validate the victim stance as it is seen as controlling and hence a personal attack. The auto response to this is fight back... Reaction begets counter reaction>escalating conflict. Loose/Loose for everyone.

CONTAINMENT & CENTERING

Deviation from productive discussion should be be reigned in with boundaries about what you are willing to do, or not do, with enforcement. eg I Don't do abusive negotiations. By retreating from abusive negotiations then you don't fuel yourself, the other party is then given time to reassess. You have not invalidated their right to feel wronged.  You have given them the space to make a choice to either self soothe, so they can re engage to try to get their issue resolved, or live with the consequences. Their behavior is not your issue.

CONTINUING THE DRAMA

By making demands on someone in full victim mode, you are making a request that is doomed to failure and in effect not allowing the pendulm of drama to loose energy instead you are giving it big push back and adding energy and agenda  to the "debate".

DRAMA SHIFTS FOCUS

We are no longer discussing whether an item is faulty, or not, and whether the claim is valid, rather the focus of the drama has now shifted to FFs demand for an apology... and who is the victim and who is the persecutor>> The drama cycle perpetuates, and the initial issue is no closer to being resolved. Its an unnecessary energy sap that has achieved nothing.

TAKE AN EXAMPLE FROM THE PROFESSIONALS

Do the police force train their members to demand apologies from angry members of the public who are pulling the victim stance, or do they encourage them to not engage in heated debate?

Similar how do major retailers train their customer service staff to deal with an endless stream of complainants? They do this repeatedly everyday

Life is to precious to be wasted dealing with, or postmorteming someone elses hissy fits.

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« Reply #128 on: August 22, 2015, 07:00:23 PM »

Excerpt
By making demands on someone in full victim mode, you are making a request that is doomed to failure and in effect not allowing the pendulm of drama to loose energy instead you are giving it big push back and adding energy and agenda  to the "debate".

Bingo.   Drama dynamics always shift us away from self responsibility and prevents problem solving.

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« Reply #129 on: August 22, 2015, 07:10:16 PM »

Why did you pick drama is the hard question here.  

I don't understand where the drama comes in. FF did not attack her in return or attempt to escalate. He simply stated his terms for a return of the $30, that being an apology for a personal attack. Or am I perceiving what happened incorrectly?  

What I see is someone taking a stand against a behavior which permeates our fast food society and damages our culture. "I want it my way, right now. And if you mess up it is my right to go off on you and attack you personally." I work in the security industry as a consultant to C level executives on policy, procedure, HR, and physical security measures. Every client I have is installing cameras and panic buttons in their public contact areas because of people with this mindset. Universities, hospitals, government agencies and large corporations alike all have to deal with this issue. And companies are taking a stand. Many retailers are reviewing video of these incidents and telling rude customers not to come back.  

Had FF not called her on her actions, he would have been reinforcing her behavior and she would have done the same to the next person who made her mad. I would have handled it very much the same way he did with no regrets.        

Cole,

I have similar thoughts... .you have my mindset correct.  I'm going to read the drama article... .triangle... .and then come back to this.

Smiling (click to insert in post)

And going back to the article…

Why do we get into dramas?  Because we have adopted a drama style to resolving dealing with conflict. We believe in it.

FF, you said you were a bottom line guy… the bottom line in this instance is "refund" or "no refund"… then a sip of ice tea and off to the garage to get the mower and mow the lawn.

If our justification for taking a left turn into dramaville is "fast food society and damages our culture" and the bettering mankind, its more a sign of how committed we are to drama resolutions. And I'm not singling you out here - we read it on the board everyday.

Try this - flip the situation and look at it.

What if she said she wanted her money back, plus an apology for selling her damaged goods and for all the time she has to invest in driving out to get a refund.  And that she was doing this because she is tired of a society that sell defective products, food, and medicines to unsuspecting families.

The premise on the Karpman's theory is that some people migrate into a drama mindset ands it boils down to this... .

The motivation is that she gets her unspoken (and frequently unconscious) psychological wishes/needs met in a manner she feel justified, without having to acknowledge the broader dysfunction or harm done in the situation as a whole.

If you see it with her you will see it with you.

What value does Karpman's work provide.  It helps us see something about ourselves that is not very easy to see.

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« Reply #130 on: August 22, 2015, 07:45:44 PM »

Thank you very much for the four most recent posts on this thread. I now feel much less disoriented.
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« Reply #131 on: August 22, 2015, 07:57:21 PM »

What value does Karpman's work provide.  .It helps us see something about ourselves that is not very easy to see



Yes! It is a tool, and something we can use as a tool for us, not on someone else.

We are all here because of some relationship dysfunction. While our S/O's appear to have a problem, and even be diagnosed with a PD, our relationship style matches them somehow. If we choose to stay with them, then for the r/s dynamics to change, we have to change.

Chump mentioned pushing the "right/wrong" boundary. Perhaps it can be considered not as a right/wrong choice but a search for a drama free/emotionally healthy ways of interacting. Many of our ways of relating to people are not necessarily wrong, or a- moral- they can work for us, they can feel right , and they can feel comfortable because they are how we do things.

But how we relate to people is part of why we struggle in our relationships.

Cole mentioned that there is a difference between a rude stranger and a S/O with BPD. Yes, there is, but the Karpman triangle can apply to how we relate to people. The common denominator is us. The triangle can be applied to a broad range of situations, not limited to BPD, but it can be a valuable tool to get insight into ourselves when dealing with someone with BPD.
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« Reply #132 on: August 22, 2015, 08:11:47 PM »

waverider, thank you for making this drama issue make sense to me and for presenting your argument in a direct and non-inflammatory way.

There are a lot more lessons to be learned by looking at all of the responses in this thread--->  Internal boundary violations, assumptions, projections, invalidating comments, inability to see another's point of view, allowing personal feelings to dictate the facts of another persons behaviors, etc.  I do not think any of them were intentionally done, but obviously we all need to learn better and more effective ways of communicating. 

I agree with chump when he said this is an excellent thread.  I did not know formflier at all when this whole buggy caper started, but I am so very glad he stuck with it.  It has been a huge learning opportunity for me and an exercise in patience and tolerance where I normally have little to none.  Seeing FF stand firm without being obstinate and defiant but open and willing to listen and learn is another huge win for me in my book.

Well done FF!  Thank you.
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« Reply #133 on: August 22, 2015, 08:57:50 PM »

What if she said she wanted her money back, plus an apology for selling her damaged goods and for all the time she has to invest in driving out to get a refund.  And that she was doing this because she is tired of a society that sell defective products, food, and medicines to unsuspecting families.

I would offer the chance for her to come out and let me look at the item... .if I determined that it was bad/defective... whatever... .I would issue the apology.

I would offer the chance (assuming no odd texts like in the exchange that actually happened) to return the item and get a refund.

If... there was some follow up or request for me to apologize sight unseen or some such thing.  I would politely decline as I don't believe I sold bad (damaged... whatever) goods.

More to come... .

FF
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« Reply #134 on: August 22, 2015, 09:03:31 PM »

FF, you said you were a bottom line guy… the bottom line in this instance is "refund" or "no refund"… then a sip of ice tea and off to the garage to get the mower and mow the lawn.

Interesting... .so... .still haven't read the article... .(races for trailer hubs have been kicking my rear... )

I can see where Bluf taken to it's fullest potential could have lead me to send back and text that just said "No"  and leave it at that.

Or perhaps no response. 

I was looking at it from the point of view of what is the bottom line to get to a refund... .what she was kinda implying she wanted... .

FF
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« Reply #135 on: August 22, 2015, 10:07:04 PM »

FF, you said you were a bottom line guy… the bottom line in this instance is "refund" or "no refund"… then a sip of ice tea and off to the garage to get the mower and mow the lawn.

Interesting... .so... .still haven't read the article... .(races for trailer hubs have been kicking my rear... )

I can see where Bluf taken to it's fullest potential could have lead me to send back and text that just said "No"  and leave it at that.

Or perhaps no response.

I was looking at it from the point of view of what is the bottom line to get to a refund... .what she was kinda implying she wanted... .

FF

Hmm... . Caveat Emptor.

Gosh, look at all those weeds in the garden.  Shew, better get pulling!  Will see how I feel about it after. 
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« Reply #136 on: August 23, 2015, 03:17:19 AM »

One thing I have been told and that has stuck is that it is not what you say but how it is received.

It is very easy for things to come across as wrong especially when not done face to face.

I can see how the exchange has put your back up especially after being involved with a pwBPD.

I dont fault you for your response as it made you feel the way it did.

I would have handled it differently but we all do things differently. By being non confrontational and offering to come and look at the pushchair and offering a refund you may have got more of an Idea of what you are dealing with. If she was just trying it on or trying to pass blame she would have backed off and refused. By letting any insults wash off of you and continuing with your offer politely she would be forced into a corner and end up telling you to forget it. If she was genuine though she would have accepted this offer.

I see it going like this.

Her. You sold me a dangerous broken pushchair.

You. Im sorry I wasnt aware it was broken. I can come and have a look and give you a refund.

Her. Just send me the money. I cant believe you would risj my childs life.

You... Once again im sorry. As I said before I will come and collect it and refund you.

Her dont bother I will sort something else out.

You are you sure. I am more than happy to come and collect and refund you.

Her forget it.

This is how I would see it playing out with a pwBPD or someone just trying it on.

If it was genuinly broken then your offer would have been accepted.

By the above interaction you havent gone back on your values. You have shown you have strong values of being polite and fair.
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« Reply #137 on: August 23, 2015, 04:28:29 AM »

I think to try to answer your question Cole, and why this thread has gotten so much attention is that it isn't about whether or not FF did the "right" thing, whether he is standing up for what is right or having to be right.

It was about taking this incident and looking at it in different ways, so that perhaps a new behavior could be learned.

Why do we need to learn new behaviors?

Because we are the other half of our spouses and for many of us, we are in a behavioral pattern with them, a pattern that matches our dysfunctions. It is sometimes referred to as a dance.

We do this dance well. Some of us learned it as kids. However, if we are not happy in our r/s- we need to learn new steps. The problem is that these steps are new, they are not comfortable to us. They may not even work, but we know that what we are doing doesn't always work either.

The idea- and it seemed to some that we are taking issue with FF - but that isn't the point. It is that the steps we know, the ones that feel comfortable and right to us, may be the ones that can keep us stuck, so maybe we can try something different.

Hi ff,

I wanted to put lots of peoples words up in the little quote boxes but I don't know how to do it,  Being cool (click to insert in post) but Notwendy captures for me the essence of this thread.

I also think that what we learn here is just as important in the outside world including the business world where in my experience power and control dominate.

Conflict resolution has many different styles, but for me kindness, empathy, validation,acceptance and understanding cut through conflict and high drama quicker than any other style. How could they not? We deal here with some of the most high conflict situations I've ever encountered, and I've encountered many in my professional life. And of course my personal life.

Someone wrote further back in the thread that the skills we learn here are just for dealing with our SO's behaviours, not any other area/aspect of our lives.

Why so, when we all know that using these skills work. Using these skills outside our relationship won't make us soft or weak or less than because by their very nature they are  emotionally strengthening, empowering and empathetic.




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« Reply #138 on: August 23, 2015, 10:11:36 AM »

Here are four types of communication: passive, aggressive, passive aggressive, and assertive. 

•   Passive – I lose, you win.

•   Aggressive – I win, you lose.

•   Passive Aggressive – I win, you lose, but I’m doing it in a sneaky or quiet way that doesn’t look overtly aggressive

•   Assertive – I win, you win too.

A review – Skills to get off the drama triangle

•   Assertiveness

•   Setting appropriate boundaries

•   Letting others be themselves and respecting their way

•   Communicating clearly and directly

•   Taking responsibility for your feelings and your life

•   It is NOT your job to get a person to agree with you and see your side. Your job is to convey your wishes and needs clearly.   

•   When you are assertive you are doing a good job of stating your own opinions, view, needs, and wants, while honoring and validating the other person’s point of view as well.

•   If you use the assertive style then you would clearly say that you disagree with a person’s point of view, but that you can see how he/she may see things that way. With this style you validate the other’s position (this doesn’t mean you agree, just that you can imagine why or how they think this), and are clear about your own point of view. This is the win win. Neither of you have to give yourself up and neither of you is put down for being wrong or bad.

Excerpts Taken From: www.catherinebruns.com/category/drama-triangle-2/page/3/

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« Reply #139 on: August 23, 2015, 10:39:36 AM »

How about a response that validates her expressed reality, then just drops her reality on the floor?  Maybe this holds her responsible for her words without YOU being the one causing it.

Such as:

It sounds like you feel taken advantage of by someone who you feel was acting maliciously towards you by knowingly putting your children in harms way. 

These are serious claims to make, and I take what you have expressed seriously.  It would not be wise for either of us to continue further contact. 

(This is also true.  I do not feel safe inviting this type of person to meet up or even coorespond.  Also, would you seriously allow your wife to meet up with a scam artist for a refund?  Her behavior contradicts her words... .maybe let her words speak back to her?)
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« Reply #140 on: August 23, 2015, 10:44:00 AM »

 

MaybeSo,

Great post.  

There are two angles to look at this from... .what I was intending to do... .and an after action of how it went down.

Part of how this would be categorized... .depends on the other person deciding if they wanted to win or not.

I clearly decided when the deal got opened up again that I was going to win... .and placed the choice back with the other person.

Had she accepted... .I could be categorized as assertive (according to this post)... .she decided to "lose" at which point I would seem to be categorized as Aggressive.

Is there a difference in looking at this through the communications "lens" versus a negotiating "lens"?

I proposed a "win-win"  (from my point of view) and if tables were turned... .I would have accepted.

Usually... .when I am in the negotiating mode I am proposing solutions that work for me (and would work for ME if on the other foot)  :)epending on how much I know about the other person... .I may try to craft solutions that I believe will work for them... .but that is NOT my responsibility.

I put out pieces that work for me... .if the other party can make those pieces fit into something that works for them great... .they have a win... .as do I... .and it is their choice.

I'm fine with being "labeled" aggressive... .although personally I describe myself as assertive.  

FF
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« Reply #141 on: August 23, 2015, 11:01:02 AM »



Sunflower,

Those responses are genius... .they come from totally different point of view than I have... .I would never cook something like that up... .but... .my hat is off to you...

And... .I will stick those in my hip pocket... .and maybe... .just maybe someday... .pull one out.

I'm thinking about two different "worlds" here... .or basic approaches.

Most of us on bpdfamily... .have had to learn how to address the emotional aspects of human interactions.

And... .no surprise... .I think the majority of the responses on here address how I could have improved my emotional response to her... .or addressed her emotions.   

There is another way to approach it... .which seems much "colder" (especially to people firmly on the side of dealing with emotions)... but it's all about a spreadsheet (in my head) and making the pieces fit... ."just the facts".  Emotion doesn't really get involved... .if it does... .I will try to step away... .regain composure... .and get back into it.

For this lady... .I think it was an emotional experience.  I was a negotiator... .moving the pieces around... to keep a business deal where I was "winning"

So... back in the day... .we had a side business of real estate.  I've bought and sold a fair number of houses in my day (flipping).  About zero emotional attachment to those deals. 

For the people buying them (as their own homes... ) the interactions were full of emotions.  For me... just a spreadsheet.  Sure... I would smile... shake hands... .say pleasantries... .but that was it... .sort of following an accepted script of behavior... and then leaving the decision in their hands.

We've also moved a lot (my family)... .I buy houses totally differently when its about us.  Investment is really not in the picture... .its about family... emotion... .etc etc. 

That is sort of the way I saw this go down with this lady. 

For me... .it was a pretty neutral experience (emotionally).  She got off "script" (accepted... honorable behavior... IMO) and I let her know that she could get what she wanted if she got back "on script" of behaving politely.

Not sure if this helps frame things or my "state of mind" differently... .or the way I approach things.

FF


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« Reply #142 on: August 23, 2015, 11:12:59 AM »

FF, your thread reminds me of something I learned from the leader of my mastermind group.  She reads about 6 business books a month and forgets nothing (a firehose of information).  She shared the following rule of thumb: 

"good news to eyes (email, text etc) and bad news to ears (phone, in person)." 

This seems to be practical advice on a couple of levels.  Regarding bad news, (1) it allows for each party to have inflection in their voice to minimize miscommunication, and (2) there is no written record of anything "gone bad" (just plain smart). 

I am trying hard to use this consistently in my life.  Many times I want to text/email bad news so I can avoid what will likely be an uncomfortable conversation, but I am now working to follow rule of thumb above.

I do not know if your situation would have turned out any differently had it been a conversation instead of a text.  Indeed, this started with her so she ideally would have called you instead of texting you.  I guess then the next ideal thing is for you to call her having received her "bad news" text. 

Who knows how it might (or might not) have turned out differently, but I think this rule of thumb is worth using.  To use with our kids, spouses, colleagues, etc.  I recently sent a "bad news" text to a client to which she did not respond. My intent was very different than she likely interpreted it and had I called her I think it would have gone down very differently and much better. 

Food for thought! 

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« Reply #143 on: August 23, 2015, 11:23:47 AM »

FF, your thread reminds me of something I learned from the leader of my mastermind group.  She reads about 6 business books a month and forgets nothing (a firehose of information).  She shared the following rule of thumb: 

"good news to eyes (email, text etc) and bad news to ears (phone, in person)." 

That is great advice. 

Personally... .I text very little with my wife about our r/s... .it's... ."all business"... .get milk... bread... .pick up a kid... that kind of thing.

We used to get in trouble by discussing "feelings" via text.  She wants to continue doing that... .I don't respond.

I tend to "mirror" whoever I am working with... .(in business)... .and tend to resist jumping communications channels.

So... I figure they are most comfortable texting... .if that is what they "lead" with... .so I stick with that... .unless a couple interactions show me that the medium has "failed"... .then I may take the initiative to move mediums.

Personally... .when I have a difficult business thing... .I will use email or text to set a meeting to discuss "X" but won't give a preview. 

If there is one issue... .then it gets handled.  If there are a couple issues... .I will say something like I'm seeing 2 things in this contract that we are not "eye to eye" on and 2 other things which we seem to agree on that need to be explored further.  Which would you like to handle first?

Anyway... .great point...

FF
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« Reply #144 on: August 23, 2015, 12:21:02 PM »

Excerpt
I proposed a "win-win"  (from my point of view) and if tables were turned... .I would have accepted.

Excerpt
but that you can see how he/she may see things that way. With this style you validate the other’s position (this doesn’t mean you agree, just that you can imagine why or how they think this), and are clear about your own point of view. This is the win win.

It is not a win-win.

It didn't validate  or even acknowledge the main thrust of her email AT ALL and as Waverider points out your response throws gas on a fire and it also sidetracks the problem into drama dynamics.  Drama is about who is bad and who is good.  The problem-solving is sidetracked and it becomes a fight over who is bad and who is good.  Stay out of the drama.

FF... .The main thrust of her text was this:

I am afraid (and a little hysterical) that you are a jerk who sold me a dangerous stroller that could hurt my babies and you don't even care.

This was NOT the main thrust of her text AT ALL. Not at all.

I want my $30.00 back.

She is in victim mode. The whole text is about fear. This is all fear driven.  Her brain isn't even online. 

Oh my gosh, the brakes worked fine last I checked.  I am so sorry.  I am of course willing to come look at it and provide a refund upon inspection.

A boundary is already in place in that you want to inspect the stroller.  If you feel you need a boundary regarding further interaction:

While I can totally appreciate your fear since you don't know me, I can assure you I want to do the right thing here.  Along those lines, I ask that you please speak respectfully as we go forward so I can do that. Thank you.



If she continues with abuse:

I am not able to assist you any further.  Have a nice day. 

I would be fine with the above b/c her shrill tone would not jar me too much.  I'd be looking for how she reacts to my validating, problem solving response.  If she continues to personalize or abusive after that... .then I'd end it. 

Excerpt
Such as:

It sounds like you feel taken advantage of by someone who you feel was acting maliciously towards you by knowingly putting your children in harms way. 

These are serious claims to make, and I take what you have expressed seriously.  It would not be wise for either of us to continue

further contact.   

I really like this too b/c it still validates the core theme of her text and is still clear and boundaried.  Absolutely!  Here you know you are already done with this person, that's your boundary... .but you ARE STILL acknowledging the core of the issue.  You heard her AND took seriously what you heard. Beautiful. 

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« Reply #145 on: August 23, 2015, 12:29:14 PM »

Excerpt
Sunflower,

Those responses are genius... .they come from totally different point of view than I have... .I would never cook something like that up... .but... .my hat is off to you...

And... .I will stick those in my hip pocket... .and maybe... .just maybe someday... .pull one out.

I'm thinking about two different "worlds" here... .or basic approaches.

Most of us on bpdfamily... .have had to learn how to address the emotional aspects of human interactions.

And... .no surprise... .I think the majority of the responses on here address how I could have improved my emotional response to her... .or addressed her emotions.   

There is another way to approach it... .which seems much "colder" (especially to people firmly on the side of dealing with emotions)... but it's all about a spreadsheet (in my head) and making the pieces fit... ."just the facts".  Emotion doesn't really get involved... .if it does... .I will try to step away... .regain composure... .and get back into it.

I don't think of my suggested response as cold.  I think it is appropriate to model appropriate business behavior according to your values of how you feel business interactions work most efficiently.  I feel this is healthy for all involved, on all levels... .both business and emotional.

Excerpt
For this lady... .I think it was an emotional experience.  I was a negotiator... .moving the pieces around... to keep a business deal where I was "winning"

So... back in the day... .we had a side business of real estate.  I've bought and sold a fair number of houses in my day (flipping).  About zero emotional attachment to those deals. 

For the people buying them (as their own homes... ) the interactions were full of emotions.  For me... just a spreadsheet.  Sure... I would smile... shake hands... .say pleasantries... .but that was it... .sort of following an accepted script of behavior... and then leaving the decision in their hands.

We've also moved a lot (my family)... .I buy houses totally differently when its about us.  Investment is really not in the picture... .its about family... emotion... .etc etc. 

That is sort of the way I saw this go down with this lady. 

For me... .it was a pretty neutral experience (emotionally).  She got off "script" (accepted... honorable behavior... IMO) and I let her know that she could get what she wanted if she got back "on script" of behaving politely.

Not sure if this helps frame things or my "state of mind" differently... .or the way I approach things.

I think I hear you. It sounds like you expect that house sales for the homewoener to be emotional and represent “family” and “home” vs a piece of real estate.  Therefore you were always aware, preemptively detached and prepared for them to have these emotional doubts and such.  Therefore you kept a distance, didn’t entangle in that as no good ever will come of that on your part…it is for them to sort out.  Being the firm rock helps them regain being grounded vs entangling in their emotion to help them sort.

So maybe you are saying that you were a bit caught off guard here.  That maybe if you have the similar approach you did with real estate, that you will depersonalize the business transaction more?  Kinda like you wear a certain “business hat” in real estate transactions, so you can just go put that hat back on?  Am I close?

In my reply, I was actually thinking of the recent post by member named gameover where he explains how to leave a person with BPD and remain painted white. (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281522.msg12659961#msg12659961)  My main takeaway from that was to do as much as you can to relate, agree, then they are left to deal again with themselves, unable to throw the emotion off of them onto you.  This way, they cannot focus on your response and reaction as a distraction. 

So I was thinking, heck…  she is accusing you of something pretty mean spirited and unsafe…heck…don’t act like she doesn’t really mean her words, don’t try to change her reality, don’t remove that reality from the equation.  Instead “believe it” and “live it” right back to her for her to face.  (Vs ignoring it, and calling it “unreal” or thinking of it as “manipulation.”)  It is like she is bluffing and you are calling her bluff…treating her words real with your behavior.  Because in the end anyway, persons who believe their feelings are facts, actually DO believe their feelings are facts.



Maybe when I personally do this (respond to others emotions unnecessarily) is where I am at fault and start engaging with persons that others would not. I often “see” that what a person expressing is not their reality. I relate and have compassion for their emotional experience, I can ignore their words, however, their emotional experience is NOT all that there is going on here.  Neither is mine. 


So then I switched to thinking of my values:

I do not feel it is safe to unnecessarily engage in persons who appear to want to cause me harm. (She wanted to motivate you by harming your character)

For me:. 

I am observing now, times that I engage in conversation to alleviate others feelings or smooth over their opinions of me to further business transactions.  I find it challenging to weigh when or if this is appropriate/helpful.


I have had the pleasure this week to observe someone who keeps just “dropping” things on the floor, so to speak, and not even confronting the person who said something odd.  I am trying to integrate that behavior I observed, also parts of the advice from that post re: staying white…  And see if I can find ways to just stop picking up the “bacon” of emotion that others pass to me, or that I grab, and what would it look like?  Would it just look like the stuff dropping on the floor?  Does that make sense?

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« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2015, 12:36:37 PM »

 

Sunflower,

The thrust of my post was that I had an emotional... business response to her... .much like when I was doing real estate.

The deal was done.  This lady wanted to undo it... .I laid out what would need to happen for that.

The emotional stuff is hers to figure out.  That is how I approached selling houses when it was "all business"

Again... I'm not saying I was right... or wrong... .just my point of view.

FF
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« Reply #147 on: August 23, 2015, 12:38:51 PM »

Excerpt
Such as:

It sounds like you feel taken advantage of by someone who you feel was acting maliciously towards you by knowingly putting your children in harms way. 

These are serious claims to make, and I take what you have expressed seriously.  It would not be wise for either of us to continue

further contact.   

d boundaried.  Absolutely!  Here you know you are already done with this person, that's your boundary... .but you ARE STILL acknowledging the core of the issue.  You heard her AND took seriously what you heard. Beautiful. 

Maybeso,

Wow... .my hat is off.  That is great. 

I now have another Costanza moment. 

FF
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« Reply #148 on: August 23, 2015, 01:00:01 PM »

Ooops FF! I stand corrected.   Being cool (click to insert in post)

Clearly my interpretation filled in the blanks via projection.
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« Reply #149 on: August 23, 2015, 01:14:01 PM »

My objective in pursuing this topic, albeit a bit aggressively when I meant to be assertive, was hoping that formflier could look at the interaction from the point of view of his disgruntled buyer. I don't think I've accomplished that.

It's none of my business how formflier chooses to handle his interactions, but he did ask for comments on his reaction.

Formflier has been an advisor on this board and is currently a welcoming ambassador. He freely gives excellent advice and feedback. I believed he was looking for same in posting this thread.

To imagine how someone else sees an interaction in no way takes away from our power, honor, control or influence. It's just a good starting point in any conversation or negotiation.

One of the principles of the martial art aikido is: "True Victory is Victory Over Oneself One must first learn to control oneself before attempting to harmonize and control others."

Another is this: "Regardless of the situation, friend or foe, one must always be ready to harmonize."

Another: "Put Yourself In Your Partner's Place. In Aikido this can literally mean swapping places with someone. In daily life it is the same. We consider how we would feel if we were the person in a difficult situation."

In any circumstance, whether dealing with a loved one with BPD, advising a board member, being with family and friends, working with colleagues, superiors, employees, or negotiating with an unhappy buyer, imagining their reality gives us greater power in formulating a strategy to respond. Stepping into their shoes and really getting a perspective of how they view the situation in no way weakens us, it strengthens our abilities and develops our awareness.

For some reason, this interaction stuck in formflier's mind and that is why he chose to post it. However he deals with people is his choice. He did ask for feedback and several of us tried to point out that regardless of whether the stroller was broken, his buyer was really upset and the way he chose to deal with the situation inflamed it, rather than leading to a win/win.

There are those of you who think he should shut down bad behavior and see nothing wrong with his response. To this I ask you, did this woman learn anything? I doubt it. I think she learned that she got ripped off by a bully.

To those of you who think she's a scam artist--really? For $30 and having to take the time to drive back to formflier's house and confront a potentially angry (and who knows what else she might have imagined he would be or do)? Really? That's a pretty bad return on her investment of time and energy.

And Cole, if you think that using the tools is only a worthwhile use of your time for dealing with your wife, you're missing out on a lot of practice time. It would be like if I thought "Oh, I'm not riding my horse in competition before judges right now so I really don't need to pay a lot of attention or ride perfectly." If I thought that way, my ass would hit the ground and I would not be honing my skills.

And I posted this without reading the above few posts... .

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« Reply #150 on: August 23, 2015, 01:26:27 PM »

look at the interaction from the point of view of his disgruntled buyer.

I think you are asking a question of empathy skills… Below is work that was developed for the DSM 5 where the working committee created a scale for measuring empathy… how well we can look at the things from the point of view of others.

It's interesting.


DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.


More here... .
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« Reply #151 on: August 23, 2015, 02:23:42 PM »

For some reason, this interaction stuck in formflier's mind and that is why he chose to post it. However he deals with people is his choice. He did ask for feedback and several of us tried to point out that regardless of whether the stroller was broken, his buyer was really upset and the way he chose to deal with the situation inflamed it, rather than leading to a win/win.

Since this topic has really taken off... .I question whether I can really say what I was thinking when I posted it.  Broadly... .I figured there would be some light banter about how we "see" PDs more now that we are familiar... .or "notice" that type of behavior...  Perhaps some similar stories from others.


So... .I'm interested in comments on how I handled this... .I met this lady in person 1 time when she picked it up.

I think I got a comment or two... .

Anyway... .the entire "vibe" of the way she kinda asked for her money back... but not directly... .just the way all of this reads... .set off my "BPD detector"

Do you guys notice things like this more?  

My remembrance is that 1 or 2 people mentioned noticing this more... .I figured this would be main thrust... .the "lens" with which we see the world.

Has a r/s with a pwBPD changed the way you interact with the world?


It has for me... .

Don't really remember much about this question... if there were any responses.

I basically figured out under what circumstances I would be ok giving back the $$... .and offered that to her... .for some reason... .(unknown to me)... .she decided her apology was worth more to her (to keep it)... .than $30... .

At no point did I consider her emotional state... .not my role.  It was my choice of what role to play.  I picked that role not because I was seeking drama, or my soul was crushed by what she said, but by my history.  This is how I have been successful in business type situations with people that I have no long term "personal" interest with.  Especially people that come across "less than friendly".  

I'm a talker... .I'm from the south... .I went to a big 10 university... .and people thought I was odd that I waived and said hey to other students (that I didn't know) as I walked around... .so... .if a stranger wants to talk and is at all friendly... .the likelihood is... .you are going to start a gabfest.  I'm an extrovert... .big time.

However... .people that behave in odd ways... .that violate "polite" rules (civility... whatever)... .I don't have much tolerance for.  I have made a choice to not tolerate them... .

Anyway... .hope this sparks a discussion about how what we have learned impacts the way we interact with the world.

The old me would have "debated" her about the finer points of the exchange... what she said... .what I said... blah blah...

FF

This last part I posted... .makes we wonder if the INCREASE in dealing with BPDish behavior at home has lead to a DECREASE in the amount of "odd" behavior I deal with (by choice) outside the home.

Again... .I do remember the days when I would not have tried to be so succinct... and try to put myself out there a bit more.

Now that I know what to look for... .I saw hints in my first 15 years of marriage... .but it went bezerk after a natural disaster forced us out of our home for about half a year.  There was about 3 to 3.5 years of really... .really bad stuff... .that was steadily getting worse until I heard about BPD... .got Eggshells book... and found this site.

Last year and a half (since finding this site) has been an adventure... .but the broad trend is towards improvement.  

As for things the formflier will be pondering... .rather than the specifics of how I would best handle the lady... .I'm now thinking more about how I "appear" to the world... .after the last 5 years.

Was it MaybeSo that said we all have wounds.  I have a lot of known wounds... .but I'm sure that I have some I don't know about or "understand" yet.  Perhaps the increase in empathy required at home... .as lead to a decrease in empathy I put out for the rest of the world?  Not even sure if that is a "wound"... .but something I am pondering.

More stuff to look over... .and respond to...

FF


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« Reply #152 on: August 23, 2015, 02:30:48 PM »

I won't assume to know what is being referred to, as I clearly can misunderstand.

However, I am aware that my communication is somewhat unclear, both expressively and receptively.

In the spirit of clarification... .

Excerpt
To those of you who think she's a scam artist--really? For $30

While I do not know if this refers to my comment of scam artist... .

I do realize that comment by me was not clear.

I was referring to her perception of FF as being a scam artist.

If I recall correctly, she invited FF to consider things from his W perspective... .and had his wife been "duped" how he would feel.

I feel that her admonishment had some validity.

If I were FF, and my W was perceived as intentionally scammed by a person, knowing the result could cause harm to the children, (as was her expressed reality) then I'd not advise my W to further contact this person, but rather cut the loss at $30 bucks.

Someone capable of intentional misleading behavior that could injure a child... .

Setting the boundary to cease contact is a healthy example to all.  IMHO.  

The lady is claiming he is liable to the potential of harming her kids.

However, willing to continue contact?

Rather than pick and choose to follow the reality of her words vs her actions.  

I think it is wise... .To be safe... .and choose safety as priority over all else.
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« Reply #153 on: August 23, 2015, 02:33:26 PM »

My objective in pursuing this topic, albeit a bit aggressively when I meant to be assertive, was hoping that formflier could look at the interaction from the point of view of his disgruntled buyer. I don't think I've accomplished that.

Cat, I'm so glad you've persisted in posting because it's clarifying my thinking as well. Others have offered some excellent suggestions as to how FF could have approached this interaction, and some of them he seems receptive to and likely to employ if ever presented with a similar situation in the future.  In other words, exactly what he was looking for in posting about this.

My focus is on making sure that even though there might be "better" ways to handle this, more enlightened, more empathetic, etc, that we don't mistakenly imply that he was somehow OBLIGATED to respond in these ways (there's that FOG thing).  While it might have been preferable for him to take another approach, once attacked, he was under no obligation to do anything other than respond respectfully with his conditions for further interaction.  Yes, he might have been kinder, soothed her inflamed feelings, but that was not his responsibility - nice, yes, maybe preferable, but not mandatory.  I know for myself, I have had to learn slowly and painfully the importance of having healthy boundaries with people who demonstrate that they don't start from a place of mutual respect.  I believe we have a duty to not cause harm to other people, even if they come at us in an aggressive, rude, disrespectful, whatever way.  So to become hostile, punishing, etc would have been meeting a wrong with another wrong.  But when wronged, we are not obligated to allow ourselves to be harmed further.  We are fully within our rights to cease all further interactions, or state our conditions for moving forward.
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« Reply #154 on: August 23, 2015, 02:35:50 PM »

 

There is potential for scamming on all sides... .

The thing that seems preposterous to me... .is that 3 (2 wheel and 1 hand) independent brake systems failed at or about the same time.

It is not impossible... .but... .

FF
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« Reply #155 on: August 23, 2015, 02:43:21 PM »

While it might have been preferable for him to take another approach, once attacked, he was under no obligation to do anything other than respond respectfully with his conditions for further interaction. 

This was exactly the way I approached it... .although I don't want to overplay the conscious thought I put into it.

I didn't debate... .validate or not?  In these situations... .this is how I normally respond.  Over the years I have found that this response serves me best.

FF
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« Reply #156 on: August 23, 2015, 02:51:09 PM »

FF, what is your takeaway from all of this?  

What is the central issue here and what have you gotten from the discussion?  

What point would you make for others?
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« Reply #157 on: August 23, 2015, 03:07:45 PM »

FF, what is your takeaway from all of this?  

What is the central issue here and what have you gotten from the discussion?  

What point would you make for others?

Interesting question... .one that I have been considering... .not sure that I have any earth shattering responses yet.

Certainly I have thought about this more deeply than during the original incident.

My current analysis (not complete by any means) is that I tend to go through life and respond to "bad input" with boundaries... .vice validation, empahty or understanding.  I really hadn't thought about it that deeply before.

The central issue (IMO) is a debate about which to lead with.  Boundaries... .or validate first to see if we can calm a situation.

2 points I would make for others. 

1.  Think about how you want to present yourself to the world and then do so... .without apology.  Others will choose a different path... .that's ok.

2.  Somehow work into your sales interactions (if there will be any) a question of are you happy with the condition of the product or ask if they want to check it out. 

Will keep thinking about this...

FF
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« Reply #158 on: August 24, 2015, 09:09:44 AM »

This thread is closed for comments.

The poll is still open.
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