I was always trying to control her (she says), help me understand

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi guys,

I posted a first thread in [L5] Staying but since then we officially broke up (she did) and told our friends and family. So there's no turning back and we are preparing arrangements for co-parenting but this is not the subject of this thread.

I have to understand why she felt trapped in the relationship and why she says that I was controlling her. Again yesterday, she was accusing me of this when we were discussing living arrangements and I was voicing my opinion about some of her options. She said that the tone of my voice (disapproval) of what she was proposing was a way of controlling her. I guess she's right to some extent and actually, controlling others is a trait of co-dependent people. So I need to understand that. I never controlled her on purpose but maybe unconsciously I was.

It is true that I would always voice my opinion about her choices if I thought she was making a mistake or there was a better option (e.g. cell phone plan). I always saw it as just trying to help out, because typically I do much more research about stuff than her. But I'm starting to realize now that every time I did that, I was not helping her (maybe I was at the beginning when she needed that), but I was "controlling" her in a way.

If my understanding is correct, that's quite a shocker to me and I so wish that she made me realize that earlier in our relationship (maybe she just didn't understand what was happening). I could have tried to improve on that. Obviously it's too late now but I still must work on it if this behavior is going to drive other future partners crazy like it did for her.

If I have to change, it's gonna be hard. I have a hard time understanding how letting your partner make a mistake that can be avoided is a "good thing" to do. I'm not allowed to give advice anymore? I guess there's a balance to be found... .? If my behavior was detrimental to my SO, I guess it could be for the kids as well. I understand that parents that are too controlling are not good (like my SO's parents). You gotta give some slack to the kids so that they can learn from their own (hopefully not too bad) mistakes.

[TooRational]

Hi guys,

I posted a first thread in [L5] Staying but since then we officially broke up (she did) and told our friends and family. So there's no turning back and we are preparing arrangements for co-parenting but this is not the subject of this thread.

I have to understand why she felt trapped in the relationship and why she says that I was controlling her. Again yesterday, she was accusing me of this when we were discussing living arrangements and I was voicing my opinion about some of her options. She said that the tone of my voice (disapproval) of what she was proposing was a way of controlling her. I guess she's right to some extent and actually, controlling others is a trait of co-dependent people. So I need to understand that. I never controlled her on purpose but maybe unconsciously I was.

It is true that I would always voice my opinion about her choices if I thought she was making a mistake or there was a better option (e.g. cell phone plan). I always saw it as just trying to help out, because typically I do much more research about stuff than her. But I'm starting to realize now that every time I did that, I was not helping her (maybe I was at the beginning when she needed that), but I was "controlling" her in a way.

If my understanding is correct, that's quite a shocker to me and I so wish that she made me realize that earlier in our relationship (maybe she just didn't understand what was happening). I could have tried to improve on that. Obviously it's too late now but I still must work on it if this behavior is going to drive other future partners crazy like it did for her.

If I have to change, it's gonna be hard. I have a hard time understanding how letting your partner make a mistake that can be avoided is a "good thing" to do. I'm not allowed to give advice anymore? I guess there's a balance to be found... .? If my behavior was detrimental to my SO, I guess it could be for the kids as well. I understand that parents that are too controlling are not good (like my SO's parents). You gotta give some slack to the kids so that they can learn from their own (hopefully not too bad) mistakes.

[peter5v10]

Wow it is eerie how similar experiences are from the SO's of Borderlines.  My SO voiced the same opinion many times.  We also have children together so I can relate.  Reflecting on it now I feel like my suggestions within the relationship were just that... suggestions.  In a healthy relationship suggestions foster meaningful dialogue.  What I have found, with what I believe to be my narcissistic partner, is that they take it as narcissistic injury.  So instead of conversing about it they internalize it and use it as justification for their actions.  Now once the relationship ends I have also found that unless it has to do with the kids (the kids have to be a subject of compromise) it is best to not give anymore advice or suggestions.  They will not appreciate it and most likely their response will send you into a spiral of self doubt.

[TooRational]

Yeah, I'm already trying not to give advice anymore but it's hard, especially if in involves money. We're not divorced yet so any mistake she makes about money affects me. If she incurs debts, these will be split 50/50 when we divorce.

I see a strong link between her aversion to receiving advice and her absolute incapacity to take criticism. It was next to impossible to give criticism to her, no matter how constructive I was trying to make it. For example, she has a tendency to leave the dog unleashed outside and our dog runs after people in the street, barking. Obviously this is unacceptable and needs to be discussed. Whenever I would bring it up, she would respond with a simple "alright" and end the conversation. The me, this "alright" sounded like "ok, stop pissing me off with your criticism again already, I'll tell you what you want to hear". I was looking for some kind of fault admission from her part, like "you're right, I shouldn't do that, I'll try to be careful". But that never came. She would never admit mistakes.

So to summarize, "Stop trying to control me with your advice and stop criticizing me".

So, how much of it is her being over-sensitive and me being over-controlling? I'm still lost.

[peter5v10]

I have been through the cycle of idealization, devaluation, and discard a few times with my ex.  Every time I would self reflect and think about the things she said and how I could have made things better.  It was only until this past time that I realized that there was nothing I could have done to prevent things from breaking down.  I can totally relate to your example with the dog.  I too would discuss things with her that had to do with the household, kids, dog, etc.  Now these things are not life or death but they are apart of the day to day quality of life that you and her share.  So they are worth discussing.  Mostly when I would brings things up to fix or to discuss she would give off a vibe that I was bothering her.   She would be dismissive in her comments... .to the point where even though she said ok I didn't know if she got the point.  So I would press the issue.  Things would often escalate from there to the point where it feels like I'm the nag and she is easy going and carefree.  However once the issue that I was trying to bring up becomes a bigger problem then that would get blamed on me somehow.  So it would end up being a lose lose.  It doesn't sound like you were controlling... .rather just being proactive.

[TooRational]

She would be dismissive in her comments... .to the point where even though she said ok I didn't know if she got the point.  So I would press the issue. 

EXACTLY. Same thing here. I wasn't satisfied with a simple "ok", so I pressed on. But then she complained that I was never satisfied, retaliating with things like "do you want me to kneel in front of you to excuse myself?"

It feels good to vent a little but I'd like to come back to the control issue. My initial question remains. I'd like to better understand why she felt controlled and how much I'm to blame in this whole thing (the co-dependency issue). Others care to chime in?

[hopealways]

It's their way of saying they feel engulfed, which is a hallmark of the disorder.  They don't know why they are feeling the feelings of engulfment because most don't understand their own disorder, so they rationalize their feelings of engulfment by calling it "controlling".

[Lunira]

How would you likely feel or respond if your partner kept haranguing you with what they perceive to be your faults, flaws, and failings?   Would you consider it helpful, or would you feel bullied?  

Do you enjoy being given repeated unsolicited advice?  Would you consider this an opening for a dialogue, or would you consider yourself as being talked down to/treated as a child?

Nobody likes that, BPD or not.

[JohnLove]

My partner with BPD was in a very controlling and abusive relationship before me with the father of her children. A pair of ladies from a social assistance program had made an appointment with a leading psychiatrist and this is when she was formally diagnosed.

Fast forward to our relationship. She forgot to mention that she was diagnosed BPD when we hooked up with the encouragement of mutual friends and things became serious enough to have the exclusivity talk.

Now after we broke up last year (we got back together after about 2 months) one of these women returned to provide my partner with assistance managing things and teaching tools for any struggles she was having as a parent.

After months of weekly visits the woman and her colleague wanted my partner to go to "counselling" or they would refuse to assist any longer.

Much later I was told the reason for their ultimatum was that she had found herself in another "controlling" relationship. Let's just say I couldn't be any more different than her ex but I am very concerned about my own character flaws adding to any problems I experience.

Now, I don't know if these statements by her are actually even accurate.

When I am providing her with accurate and helpful information about a predicament or situation she has found herself in to allow her to make informed choices to resolve it, I have lately been repeatedly told not to talk to her like a child, or treat her like a child.

I am a Leo, a natural leader, and pretty much epitomise the character traits of this astrological sign. I fail to see where I am controlling or giving unsolicited advice when she comes to me to self sooth, or for emotional counselling, or a dose of reality amongst her cognitive distortions and lack of touch with reality... .or as I like to call it what actually is happening.

After reading the two posts above I have had a realisation that I suspect it is her engulfment at play as she can never seem to be able to spend enough time with me and I haven't really considered this aspect.

Oh, the FOG. Sometimes these relationships seem next to impossible.

Any advice or clarity anyone could offer would be appreciated.

[Seeks]

I just received the "you will no longer be able to control me" text today. In a long rant, breaking up with me for the fifth day consecutive day (and probably the dozenth time in 5 years) She accused me of wanting power and control over her.

This has been going on for a solid week now, culminating from me helping her monitarily ( I exploit her being poor) and with the huge engulfment move of me trying to get her to put her engagement rings back on. (They have been off for quite some time)

It was explained here to me as "she feels a strong need to individuate and doesn't want to feel owned."

I think this is very true. She is shamed that she is not able to provide for her and her sons needs without help. She wants to feel successful and in control of her life. She is still searching for that sense of self. To be an individual. And when we invade, even with good intentions, they view it as an attack.

Every teenager wants to be independent (my gf is 35) and I think emotionally pwBPD are still stuck back in that mindset. Spouses can be viewed as a threat to their individuality just as their parents were. Their parents had control over them, giving them advise, telling them what to do, controlling how much money they were to have... .

This dynamic carries over into their relationships. And coming with it is the hyper sensitive feelings of not wanting to be controlled.

[TooRational]

Lunira, about unsolicited advice. Do I enjoy receiving them? Yes, absolutely, most of the time at least. I fail to see why this is bad if done in a respectful manner. It shows empathy towards the person. Let me give you an example. Say I hear on the radio that there's an accident on the way to work. I might give the unsollicited advice to my SO that she should take an alternate route because of this. How is that bad? I guess if I really wanted to absolutely refrain from any advice I would just talk about the accident and not my suggestion on how to avoid it. But I feel that it's splitting hair. This is walking on eggshells.

JohnLove, at least your SO was diagnosed with BPD, so at least that bit is clear. It's not for me. We share the same confusion about our apparent "controlling" behavior though.

Seeks, the second half of your post is EXACTLY the way she describes her feeling to me. I could have written the exact same words. Do you have any advice to provide or are you in the same boat than me, just trying to figure things out? I looked at your first post and our story has similarities. Very religious and controlling household for my SO but no sexual abuse (that I know of). As for my own youth household, I couldn't ask for better parents, although one could probably put a co-dependant label on my mom (caring more about others than herself) but my dad is not BPD. Another difference is that she's no slacker, unlike your case, she does most of the cooking and about 2/3 of household chores. But in my defense, she works 20h/wk and I work 40h/wk. I bring 85% of the family income. You don't seem to have children with this woman. I have to ask, what keeps you in this relationship? In any case, I would strongly advise against marriage until you fix your relationship.

I have been having long e-mail exchanges with our best mutual friends (a couple). I talked to them about co-dependency and this accusion of me being controlling. They reassure me that I'm not like that at all and it's simply my SO overreacting. They don't seem to buy into the co-dependency at all either. They don't like "labels" such as BPD either, so it's not much help to talk to them about BPD and co-dependency but as long as I avoid these words, they are very helpful.

Still looking for advice about the controlling aspect... .I seem to read conflicting things. If you're co-dependant, you're controlling. However, if you're BPD, then you are over-sensitive to any behavior that are remotely close to controlling. So? Which is it? How do we know where we fall on that spectrum?

[greenmonkey]

I was told I was controlling for the following

1. Changing water and cleaning a fish tank, Buying a new pump and feeding them.

2. Doing the shopping/cooking

3. Paying the bills

Remember she contributed nothing to the household whatsoever, financially or otherwise. In her very sick mind she considered this to be controlling. If I would not have done the above we would have starved, and had all utilities cut off, as she did nothing.

So heads you lose tails you lose

[Seeks]

T.R.

You are correct, we do not have children together. And because of the way she is I seriously doubt she would ever marry me. I think in order for marriage to happen for her she would have to do it within the first year of a relationship.

I used to stay in this relationship because I was madly in love with her and I was convinced I could fix things and get them back to the way they were. I had read that was not possible, but of course I had to find this out for myself. It took a long time but the realization finally hit home. Now i find myself loving her for the way she is, not in spite of it.

When the emotional bads hit I am in a better place to sluf them off rather than taking them personally. She periodically needs to emotionally dump onto somebody, at the current time it is me. Our break up seems very real and very final. I have however been in this position before, and emotionally I'm not so devastated. She may come back around, she may not. It's something you have to accept when you are in an emotionally charged relationship.

As for the controlling aspect. Instead of offering unsolicited advise, rephrase it as a question.

-There is an accident on the highway, would you like me to see if I can find an alternate route?

-I was reading about cell phone plans and they might have come up with a better option. Want to check it out?

If she gives you a negative response, blow it off and say no more.

Asking instead of telling goes a long ways. Put some of the power back in her hands, and let her make some mistakes. When we were kids our parents told us the right way to do some things. But invariably we did not learn from their mistakes, we still had to make our own.

I would suggest some space and some freedom of choice. Showing her she has value by asking for her opinion on some of the things you do will boost her self image on where she stands in the relationship.

It's all about balance. Think partnership.

[Agent_of_Chaos]

My ex used to say I was "nagging".  To a degree I think she was right.  You can words such as nagging, controlling, whatever you want... .and I probably fit the bill in her eyes.  The thing is, I was trying to get her to see the big picture.  I was trying to get her to see the long term effect.  I was trying to treat her like a healthy individual, in a healthy relationship, that tackled life as a team. 

A team.

I realize now that it would have been impossible.  I don't regret "nagging" her to reach out to her family more.  I don't regret "nagging" her to try and rebuild a relationship with her sister.  I don't regret seeming "controlling" when it came to finances.  I wanted to ensure she had enough money for her bills. 

I was trying to help her pave pathways to an easier life.  A better life.  A life of fulfillment.  I realize now it was a waste of my breath.

[CharWood]

Anything you do to hold them accountable for their unhealthy and damaging behaviors they deem to be "controlling." My ex is the queen of playing the "you are controlling" card.    Let it go in one ear and out the other. It is just an excuse to project onto you and let them play the victim role and make you the bad guy... .seriously.

[enlighten me]

The thing is that even though I didn't realise I was controlling looking back I can see how it can seem that way to my ex.

When doing the house up Most of the decisions where down to my ex. The actioning of them I did. I came up with a plan and tried to stick with it. If my ex deviated from the plan then I would get upset as she hadn't taken into account money, time and the knock on effect.

With shopping I would ask what she fancied for dinner. I can see this coming across as me pressuring her.

The problem as I see it is a communication one. Even though we talked about things we weren't on the same page. My justification for doing things didn't match hers so if I got my way then I can see how she could see it as me controlling her.

On the other hand there were things I did just because I thought they were the only sensible way of doing things. I realise that I can be quite inflexible. If something seems like the logical way to do it then I can dismiss others ideas.

[TooRational]

Thanks everyone. So it seems that everyone has experienced the "you're trying to control me" criticism but people seem at each end of the spectrum about how they feel about it. From "In her very sick mind she considered this to be controlling" and "I don't regret "nagging" her to", to "I can see this coming across as me pressuring her".

Seeks seems to be in the middle, suggesting alternate way of giving advice (asking).

You guys basically express all of my feelings about this "controlling" behavior. I sometimes feel at one end of the spectrum, guilty of controlling (I'm sure I did). Other times, I feel that I was just doing altruistic actions and she was overreacting.

So, I'm not closer to know where the right balance is. Even though we broke up, I still want to keep a good parenting relationship with her so this is important to me. She'll probably become even more reluctant to take any advice from me from now on. So I need to figure out how to share my point of view about the kids without it being seen as controlling or pushy. I'm not sure the "asking a question" trick would work in that context if I really insist on sharing my point of view.

I'll let her make her own bad personal decisions from now on (such as paying life insurance premiums for a 5k credit margin that she doesn't plan on using, wow) but I need to figure something out for the kids. Hey, maybe I'm ready for the [L5] Co-parenting board.

[enlighten me]

With my exs I realised she had as much right to parent her own way as I did as long as it didn't jeopardise the kids. One thing that this has done for me is cut down the worry and stress and give my children two different perspectives to parenting.

My interactions are kept to BIFF. I don't engage in arguments. I don't lecture them.

[TooRational]

Yeah, I'll try to give her as much freedom as I can but there is one subject that is almost certain to cause conflicts. Our son has a lazy eye and he needs sunglasses outside otherwise one eye is constantly crossed (it's worse when it's bright outside). If his eye stays crossed for too long he could lose his 3D vision eventually, so it's a big deal. Now, my wife doesn't seem very worried about that and constantly misplaces his glasses, forgets to put them on, etc. She brings back home the glasses I leave in his cubby at daycare and then forgets them the next day, so he has to spend full days without them.

Obviously, this is aggravating to me. It's not life and death but I want to do my best to give my child a chance not to be crossed eye and made fun of for the rest of his life. My wife doesn't seem to care as much, or at least doesn't think the glasses make a big difference.

Big conflict looming ahead when he's gonna spend whole weeks with her... .

[enlighten me]

I can understand this, My son has renal failure and has to do catheters. He wouldn't do them for my ex wife and rather than deal with it in a healthy way all she did was shout at him which made him not do them at all.

Is your son old enough to be taught to remember his glasses?

Could you speak to the day care and get them to keep hold of a pair of his glasses while he is there?

I know its not a cheap option but what about multiple pairs? One in your house, your car, day care etc. This way your son gets used to having them and wearing them so he may carry on doing it when with mum.

It is difficult when one parent will not do something as they don't see it as important. Even if you get her to agree its important it doesn't necessarily mean that she will adhere to it.

[hibye]

It feels good to vent a little but I'd like to come back to the control issue. My initial question remains. I'd like to better understand why she felt controlled and how much I'm to blame in this whole thing (the co-dependency issue). Others care to chime in?

I had the same "controlling" issues which i realized when i read the book by Mellody Beattie "co-dependent no more-how to stop control".

In every relationship no one is perfect, we as co-dependents are too caretaking as persons and this may seem too pushy for our SO. Melody Beattie explains that we can't change others if they are not willing to change by themselves so pushing and pushing won't help.

Don't blame yourself for this and give credit to your exBpd, just take care of yourself instead of taking care others .  

[Teereese]

I have been through the cycle of idealization, devaluation, and discard a few times with my ex.  Every time I would self reflect and think about the things she said and how I could have made things better.  It was only until this past time that I realized that there was nothing I could have done to prevent things from breaking down.  I can totally relate to your example with the dog.  I too would discuss things with her that had to do with the household, kids, dog, etc.  Now these things are not life or death but they are apart of the day to day quality of life that you and her share.  So they are worth discussing.  Mostly when I would brings things up to fix or to discuss she would give off a vibe that I was bothering her.   She would be dismissive in her comments... .to the point where even though she said ok I didn't know if she got the point.  So I would press the issue.  Things would often escalate from there to the point where it feels like I'm the nag and she is easy going and carefree.  However once the issue that I was trying to bring up becomes a bigger problem then that would get blamed on me somehow.  So it would end up being a lose lose.  It doesn't sound like you were controlling... .rather just being proactive.

I totally relate, especially bringing up an issue, it becoming a bigger problem and my getting blamed.

I am by nature careful, thoughtful and proactive. My soon to be ex absolutely despised these traits. He would immediately go to, "you think you're so smart ... .perfect" ... .ad nauseum.

I became afraid to have an opinion on anything or say what I thought/felt for a long time. A situation would go bad and it would be my fault in his eyes for not speaking up.

Counseling helped me to regain myself. Of course, the marriage went downhill from there.

I felt insane for a long time.

I am feeling like a full blown, worthy, thinking, feeling human being since he left.

[Notwendy]

I think the nature of the situation is that the closer and most intimate one is with a person who has BPD, the more likely we are to trigger childhood wounds.

My mother's (BPD) FOO is very invalidating. One feels invisible around them. They always know exactly what you should do, and how you should do it and of course, their way is the only way and the best way  

My mother can take advice from the most remote person- her hairdresser's cab driver, and she will do what they suggest, but if I so much as hint at advice, she feels invalidated. From my perspective, it seems as if dad did everything for her, yet as she tells it, he invalidated her.

My H has a (IMHO) critical and verbally abusive father. If I try to advise or correct him in any way, I become his "father" and he is triggered.

This is just my opinion, but in these situations, I have to not sweat the small stuff and let natural consequences and experience be the learning method. This is also a component of parenting. One certainly does not let a kid make dangerous decisions- like take the car before getting a license, but for small ones- like being late for class- the best teacher is the consequences the school imposes on that, better than a parent nagging them to get dressed on time in the morning.

Mom didn't learn to manage money. Dad earned it, she spent it. My father passed away a while back, and left my mother in solid financial shape. We were afraid she would mismanage it. However, attempts  to advise or assist was met with  dysregulations, accusations that we were going to steal her money.  I would understand if she felt we were trying to control her. We realized that we had to back off It is her money after all- and she can do what she wants with it. Now, it is most likely true that we can budget it better, but we had to let her take care of it. She is not a child.

Finally, after some time of spending it, she has started to realize that she could run through much of her savings and is becoming concerned and more conservative with it. Now, someone isn't filling up the bank account and she has gotten the message that what she has is what she has. However, it took someone to not manage the money for her, and let her be in charge of it, for her to learn that.

My H grew up with a mother who did everything in the kitchen, and I have also done all of that. He likes to have his own food, but he doesn't throw it out past the expiration date. If I were to tell him to do that, or throw it out, this would make him mad. So, I decided, well, he will have to take care of the food he bought. It took a few stomach aches for him to figure out that it was not a good idea to eat food that has been sitting in the fridge much past the expiration date.

So, yes, nobody likes to be treated like a child, and stepping back means tolerating some mistakes. We all make them. I think it is important to intervene in situations that may be harmful, and also recognize when we can not intervene ( such as with mom's money) even if it would be in their best interest to do so. When we "manage" things for people, we can keep them from learning and growing from their own experiences.

[Duder]

My ex said I was controlling because I objected to her dressing like a slut to work.

[Notwendy]

You have the right to your opinion, but there is a choice to make and that is the pros and cons of sharing that with your spouse and how much control you have , or should have, over what she wears.

She's a grown woman and could walk out of the house naked if she wanted to.

There would be consequences for that, and also for dressing inappropriately to work.  You could tell her what to do, or let her learn from the consequences of how she dresses.

One option would be to say something, or let the office staff deal with a worker who is dressed inappropriately.

[Notwendy]

Not to look at it as right or wrong to give advice. I've had friends give me advice.

The difference is that they don't trigger me.

It may be that pwBPD can not easily take advice from people who are in their most intimate circle because of the potential for being triggered.

I have said the most innocent suggestion- something I might say to a friend, and it could set my mother ( or H ) off. If the intention is to be helpful. I might say to a friend as we are getting ready to pick kids up from school " Hey, I just was driving to the school and the traffic was all backed up, so maybe take another road to get the kids" .

My friend would say " thanks, I'll go the other way"

My mother would scream " don't you think I know how to drive? I know how to get to the school. How dare you say I can't "

My H might say " You don't need to tell me how to drive"  and then walk off in a huff.

In both cases, the intent- to help - didn't go through. It was taken as an insult.

For some things, you do intervene. Take the car keys from a friend who has been drinking. But sometimes, giving advice is a choice to do or not.

[TooRational]

[I wrote this reply before seeing your very last post Notwendy]

Thanks Notwendy for your insightful posts. Yes, I guess there's value in letting someone else make their own mistake, it's pretty clear. But isn't there value in providing some advice as well? Isn't learning from the mistakes of others better than making your own? I mean that's why we read books, go to school, attend conferences, etc.

I can totally relate with your example of your mother who can receive advice from anyone except her family. Isn't that infuriating? I can understand that you backed off and that was probably the right thing to do in that context. However, that doesn't make her behavior "okay".

I guess I'm trying to pass some of the blame to my ex. Yes, some of the actions I was doing could be seen as controlling, but at the same time, I think she must have been overreacting at times. Right?

[Now after reading your last post]

You anticipated my questions I guess. I don't have much to add. You're confirming that pwBPD can sometimes grossly overreact to simple advice. You choose to refrain from giving advice to avoid triggering them, I guess it's okay if you make that choice consciously.

The technique proposed above of first just telling the facts (there an accident on the road) and then asking if they want some advice has value in these circumstances. I've been trying just yesterday it kinda works. We were doing our budget for our life after separation and my wife was way confused. I asked her if she wanted my help. She said no. A little while later, more confused than ever, she actually reached out for my help. She was still very reluctant to receive any advice but was at least a little more open about it. I'll keep practicing that technique... .

[Notwendy]

I think you did a good job with that.

One thing we have to be careful about is our motive. If we are trying to keep the peace or not trigger them, then that is controlling too- walking on eggshells. Sometimes we do need to speak up and not be concerned if it triggers them.

Although giving advice can trigger them, that isn't the motive not to. It is because the intent of giving it doesn't work. If my intent to tell my friend about the traffic is to give her a heads up,  then I recognize that my intent does not work when dealing with mom or H. It have to recognize that what may be a kindness to my friend is not to them. I choose to get out of the way and let them learn. They can check the traffic.

Sometimes I make other choices. A part of the fridge was broken. My H fixed it but was griping and angry about it. He stormed off in a huff. Now, he had the choice to say no, and I would have figured something out. This isn't about advice, but realizing that, his being triggered is his trigger and not because I did anything wrong. Before I did the work in co-dependency, I would have been very concerned about his feelings and asked him what was wrong. This time, I figured, he is a grown person, he can tell me if something is wrong. I was polite about asking and thanked him for his help.

[Notwendy]

Another way to look at this, is what is my motive? Am I the best person to say/do this? Am I rescuing ( getting on the drama triangle) ?

One thing that triggers my H is telling him directions when he is driving. ( maybe that's a male thing? ). Even if some people get ticked off at this, they probably have the sense to not rage at their partner. But if my H takes a wrong turn, and my intention is to get back on the right road, then telling him does no good. The only thing that works at the moment is for him to drive until he figures it out. So, unless this is an urgent situation, its better to let him figure it out.

Which once got comical. After a drive our kid said to me" Dad was driving all around in a circle". To which I said "yes, he was" and that's all. Later, my H said, " I could have taken a more direct route".

We have to assume that, unless they ask, or are about to do something that would be harmful, it may be the better decision to let them learn it.

There's a lot of things my H does better than I do and sometimes it is better for me to ask him to help, but sometimes I have to learn how to do them too. I'm sure he would have stories about things I have done that were different from how he does them.

[Stolen]

I was told I was controlling because I didn't want the kids to eat in the basement.  This after I cleaned up after them untold times.  I thought they should do their eating in the kitchen.  Its a real nice kitchen. 

So - after weeks of asking what my xW thought I was "controlling", which was the sole reason she ever stated for wanting to get divorced - I got this:

Me: Please, explain to me what it is I control that bothers you so much.

She: [Veins bulging, eyes twitching] You don't want the kids to eat in the basement. So when I let them eat in the basement I have to worry about being in trouble with you the way I always was with my mother.

With that, I saw the flock of cuckoos approaching and decided it was no use to talk further... .

FWIW, we had never had a word of disagreement about the kids eating in the basement prior.  Never.

[Notwendy]

Sometimes it isn't the reason, but the "reason" in the moment. I am on the staying board, but there was a period of time in my marriage that I remember as horrible. I don't know why but for some reason, my H decided he had treated me poorly and was motivated to change. However, he had no explanation for those years, and if I asked he'd say " why look at the past, things are fine now" as if I was expected to magically erase the memories.

I had no idea what was going on with our relationship at the time. So my logical thinking was that, whatever he was upset about had to be a pretty big thing for him to treat me like he did for all that time- years. I kept asking him and he would avoid the question or say he didn't know. My thought was how could you not know why you were willing to ruin your marriage over something you did not know?

So he started to give me some answers- and they were all seemingly resolvable things- not something you mistreat someone for years over. I remember once he raged at me over dinner, and then gave me the ST- and I asked him why, and he said " I didn't like the soup" . From my asking him it occurred to me that his reaction to something seemingly minor was that that the meaning he made out of it was major- to him. Your ex wife gave you the clue by mentioning her mother. I think I was my H's father in his mind.

Of course it seems impulsive to divorce someone because they didn't want the kids to eat in the basement, but it's also strange to act like that over  soup. I don't think it really was the soup but the words they find in the moment to explain the feelings. I realized that all those years, the little slights that people have when married were interpreted as terrible things to him.

But I started on this thread because of the co-dependency and controlling question. Being co-dependent, I tried to analyze , predict and control these events, but I now realize, I have no control over how any one thinks.

[JohnLove]

My partner with BPD's home is very untidy. 4 of her children (1 a young adult) are VERY messy with leaving stuff lying around everywhere. Sometimes in the younger children's bedrooms you can't see the floor. There is always something getting lost, broken, or damaged.

So when her children come to my place to visit or stay over I get them to put things away if they are playing a game or encourage them to pick up after themselves after eating or whatever.

I don't discipline her children but I do intervene in their arguments and makes sure no one hurts each other. I only have 2 simple (broad) rules in my home and this has been explained to everyone, and repeated when necessary.

1: No one is allowed to hurt another and 2: no one is allowed to damage property.

So if they make a mess or fail to pick up or clean up, I directly encourage them to make amends, often in the hope that these healthy, desirable behaviours will be picked up and be carried over to my partners home where there is a real problem.

But often when I do this I am "challenged" by my partner... .especially if it is not perfectly clear which one (of her three) children has made the mess or failed to pick up after themselves. I ask the closest child that maybe they would like to pick it up?... .and I am met with resistance from both the child and my partner when in the absence of accountability I try to encourage teamwork. I have explained when all 3 (4 if you include my partner) want to deny a clear fact of the mess that responsibility then falls to everyone (usually the closest person or sometimes all of them) to make things right again by cleaning it up.

I am usually met with denial by most of the children and I am met by arguments or distorted perspectives on how this should proceed by my partner. This issue has been improving at a snail's pace. I will add that in her own home she cannot get the children to do anything and that responsibility will fall to her or her adult daughter and often before they can complete the task the younger children are making further mess so nothing is accomplished. It is a perpetual cycle.

There was a specific incident recently which I may relate which made me state "I know now why your home is in such a mess and it isn't the children's fault". The blame game is a biggie for her. I'm not sure stating the obvious is helpful but after working on this for so long it was self evident and overdue anyway.

My partner has also said she has more rules in my home to abide by than my own children do.

I understand how she might feel that way as I have told her not to dysregulate at my children. That is a boundary for me but also falls under rule No.1 as it never ends well for my children, my partner, or me for that matter.

When trying to assist her or her children with healthier behaviours or habits especially around personal responsibility or accountability I am "controlling". They can wreck their home, but my home is now theirs too and I now have a boundary around this after it was treated exactly like theirs a number of times and was not addressed and I was expected to clean it up.

I don't know it all, but she struggles with these things, complains to me about it, becomes extremely stressed over it, quite obviously needs some kind of assistance with it as it keeps recurring and I try to help her overcome, address, or resolve it... .and then I become the "problem".  

I am going to attempt the strategy outlined above the next time the opportunity presents itself... .and if I see a flock of cuckoo's rapidly approaching then at least I will have a clearer understanding of what is actually happening... .ie, the truth.

That movie reference gave me a chuckle... .but sometimes I feel I am the only sane one and that's not funny. I'm outnumbered.  

[Stolen]

NotWendy,  you are absolutely correct in that the trigger is some flashback to  the evil M of xW.  That relationship, that I thought we were making progress with, seems to underlay so much.  xW seemed totally unable (or unwilling) to discipline the children in anyway.  The word "no" was rarely, if ever, uttered. From early on, xW would plead (yes - plead) with the kids to go to sleep, to get out of bed, to clean their rooms etc.  Would "plead" with them, and accept their refusal in stride.  I would chime in with, "stop asking and tell them what to do" and the storm clouds would gather. (JohnLove - you sitch sounds like it may be in the same ballpark).  xW would see my (gentle) discipline as her Mother's vicious rage, and would recoil to "protect" the kids from her "mother's" dysphoric rage.

One time xW and D were with friends - D (little at the time) played with and broke xW's $300 designer sunglasses.  When zero response, friend asked "aren't you going to punish her?"  xW "No, I will never punish or yell at my children, because I was always screamed at as a child".  The clearest explanation of what drove and triggered her, and a different, but perfect example of black/white thinking.  "I was abused, so I will never abuse my children" - that could be healthy, but when "never abuse" is translated as never saying no, never telling the kids to do something, never enforcing boundaries and consequences, then that is not healthy. 

Sometimes constantly running for Mother of the Year is not what is best for the kids.  And it gives the kids a feeling of entitlement that is very difficult for the other parent to deal with.  JohnLove - your partner aligning with her kids in the way you describe is exactly what happened to me.  A clear line was drawn between them and "him" (me).  Once you become "him", its over. 

Maybe after some more wine I'll tell you the laundry story... .  classic.

[Notwendy]

I think it would make sense for your partner to have difficulty with raising children. That is a relationship and relationships are difficult.

You can maintain your boundaries of "my house my rules". All kids can test the limits, and it isn't unusual for kids in a blended family to pull the " you are not my parent " rule. Don't even go there- it could be anyone's kids at your house. "My house, my rule" for everyone.

Don't let them push you out of this boundary. They know how to work that one as it seems to work for them at home- so they will try it. But you are doing them a great favor with your house rules as you are modeling being a parent with boundaries.

Sometimes I think the things said " I have more rules than you do" are to protect self esteem. Surely she feels bad on some level that her home is a mess and feels out of control. I imagine she is sensitive about that. If she has them all the time, then it isn't easy to be a mom by herself 14/7 even without BPD.

The lessons on this board are good with dealing with accusations that sound crazy.

[Notwendy]

Stolen, I can relate to your xW in that having mom with BPD, I didn't want to pass on that experience with them. It was hard to say no but I knew it was important to have boundaries with them.

My mother was the opposite- and very OCD about keeping the house neat. If I left a toy out, she'd hide it or throw it out to punish me. Her home was spotless, but she didn't clean it- she had household help.

My home is on the clean, but not neat side. I have to admit that I was a bit slack on making the kids keep it up, but they are older now and know how to clean, take care of their own laundry and such.

Our parents did influence us, and so my erring on messy is probably a reaction to that. But since I am the one who basically takes care of all that in the house, this time, it's my house, my rules. 

[TooRational]

Something new came up in my relationship (W flip flopped again about staying or leaving) but I'd prefer to keep this thread on topic so I started a new one:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=284022

Of course feel free to keep discussing here about control issues, great discussions, thanks everyone.

[Gonzalo]

Some of these seem like the pwBPD being overly sensitive to some kind of advice or rule, and are things that someone could work on delivery or letting her make her own mistakes. My ex- went way further on accusations of being controlling over things that were not even plausibly control attempts.

For example, early on in our relationship we talked about her going on vacation with me and my family, and I was really excited about it. Stuff came up for her at work and it looked like she wasn't going to be able to get time off. So I made a point to tell her "I want you to know that I'm fine with whatever works out for your schedule. I'll be mildly disappointed if you can't come but I'm not going to be sad or mad about it. Just do whatever works for you and I'll be fine with it." She flew into a rage at me for being controlling and domineering, she took me saying "I'm fine with it, do what you want and it will be cool" as me telling her that she needed my permission to not go on the trip.

Another time we had talked about going for a walk to a nearby restaurant and having a dinner together, and she really liked the idea. A few weeks later on a rainy Sunday I mentioned that while today wouldn't work, I did want to do out nice like walk and dinner sometime. She said that she didn't want to and got kind of quiet. I asked her if she just didn't want to do it today, or if she didn't like the idea, and what she didn't like. She raged at me for not respecting her right to make a decision and for trying to make her change her mind. Of course this is a catch-22 - if I didn't ask and brought up the idea of the walk again on another day, she would rage at me for trying to make her do something she already told me she didn't want to do. If I just dropped the idea entirely and she actually wasn't opposed to it or changed her mind again, then she would rage at me for promising to do a fun thing then taking it away from her.

In some cases, you can take a different approach in a productive way and get better results, but in my case I was using good, respectful communication and not trying to force her to do anything (and the therapist who was seeing both of us agrees) and it still blew up. One of the things I realized after leaving is that, even if there was a way to dance around the topics and somehow make those conversations not blow up, I didn't want a relationship where I have to be so absurdly overcautious in conversation. If I can't tell my partner 'do what you want, I'm fine with whatever you decide'' or ask her questions about what she likes and doesn't like so I can plan fun activities for the two of us, I don't want to be in a relationship with that person, I don't think it's healthy in general and it's certainly not healthy for me.

[JohnLove]

Thanks for your response Notwendy.

You can maintain your boundaries of "my house my rules". All kids can test the limits, and it isn't unusual for kids in a blended family to pull the " you are not my parent " rule. Don't even go there- it could be anyone's kids at your house. "My house, my rule" for everyone.

The "funny" part is that her kids have NEVER in 3 years pulled the old "you're not my Dad" trick. Not once. I haven't really had to discipline them either. I'm a bit careful about that. I just try to keep order if they get out of hand. The most I've done is make them sit in an outside chair a few times. They accept this as they know and I know they did something to deserve that treatment.

Don't let them push you out of this boundary. They know how to work that one as it seems to work for them at home- so they will try it. But you are doing them a great favor with your house rules as you are modeling being a parent with boundaries.

I did march 2 of them home once when I was working from home and the two of them that were here would repeatedly not obey direct instructions not to jump on the furniture. The real problem was that I was probably unable to give them the attention they needed/wanted and they made some poor choices.

Thanks for saying I am doing a great favour. I didn't realise I needed that validation until you expressed that... .and that's a little bit sad.

Sometimes I think the things said " I have more rules than you do" are to protect self esteem. Surely she feels bad on some level that her home is a mess and feels out of control. I imagine she is sensitive about that. If she has them all the time, then it isn't easy to be a mom by herself 14/7 even without BPD.

Possibly true. And she feels real bad that her home is a mess and she is seemingly powerless to correct it. She doesn't have more rules, but she is the only one that dysregulates at the children. That led to our very unexpected and very sharp breakup last year. I would've thought she would have learnt from that experience (especially as she ended up in a psychatrict facility about 8 weeks after NC), but apparently I have read they don't learn from their mistakes and I know she is making attempts to not repeat that behaviour but it seems her choice is to avoid my children completely.

I know it's real hard to be a single parent but her and her children have my physical and emotional support... .only she undermines it. She has a young adult daughter that provides (very poor care and even abuse IMO) who provides care when she is at work. She hangs with me at my home when she needs some peace. All the children now go to school from this year. She had social assistance workers coming in to the home for most of this year. How much support does a Mum need?... .because nothing ever seems to be enough. A BPD mantra?

To bring this response back on topic, I now feel after reflecting on things that I am being emasculated as a man by her and anyone over 10 years old in her family in the name of me being "controlling"... .give me a break.

[TooRational]

Gonzalo, thanks for sharing your story. I don't think that my W is that sensitive to her feeling controlled. Or at least she doesn't blow up like your partner did. It's more an accumulation of her feeling controlled and she uses that as a reason for wanting to leave, she can't take it anymore.

We had our best friends over for diner last night (they were there to act as mediator about the details of our separation) and today my friend made me realize how I had a controlling behavior last night. He said that as I admitted, I like to do lots of research about everything on the internet. My wife is annoyed by that and he explained why. I'll give an example. We actually had a debate last night between the four of us about what needed to be renovated on the house before selling. It was the 3 of them against me. They basically were saying that the house was fine as it is and I was saying that the market is rough right now and houses need to be in tip top shape to sell fast, otherwise they'll sit on the market a long time and we'll be forced to heavily reduce the price. I mentioned that I follow the housing market closely and that I've read lots of articles about that kind of stuff. Eventually I won my point and we agreed on a set of fairly minor renovations that needed to be done.

Ok, so how is that controlling? Well, whenever I enter a debate with my W, I typically have strong rational arguments because I have done research about the topic. It's making my W feel inferior and and also that she has no say in the matter because she can't possibly match the level of research that I do. So I discount her opinion in a way. She wants to be able to make decisions her own way, even if that means making bad ones without research, because that's her way of doing things. My research is threatening to her and controlling. I realize that now.

This is exactly what her parents did, too. They never considered her opinion on things. Her dad was very knowledgeable (Ph.D., read about 3000 books in his lifetime, etc) and I can see now how I'm sorta acting the same way, probably too often.

My friend suggested a different approach. He says do your research, but instead of coming with the "final" and definitive solution, reduce it down to 3 different options, then let her choose. For example, we want to move in the Spring and so we'd like to choose a location with a good school for the kids. Hence some research about schools is inevitable. So, I could reduce the options down to 3 very good schools, and let her choose, or choose together. As long as there is still room for her opinion. I think it's a very good advice.

[thisagain]

My pwBPD often manipulated situations to make it look like I was controlling. Feelings are facts for pwBPD, and mine liked to manipulate situations and bait me so that the facts appear to reinforce her fears (in this case the fear of engulfment).

So she would tell me her coworker was hitting on her, her coworker looks exactly like the first woman she ever fell for, and then ask if it's okay if she has a one-on-one coffee date with this coworker   I'd say that would make me uncomfortable, and then she flips out at me for being controlling and not letting her have friends. She eventually decided the coworker was a lazy, trashy, stupid b****, but still periodically raged at me over it until the final discard. I was nothing but supportive of her actual friendships, but she still would set up this kind of situation ever so often (when her fear of engulfment was getting too much for her) and then rage and say I was controlling and wouldn't let her have friends.

I did find some grain of truth to the accusations, at times when I would try to intervene when I saw her setting herself up for failure or drama in some other area of her life. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned "letting her make her own mistakes." It's hard to do that when she's using her mistakes as an excuse to abuse you. My ex consistently ruined everything good in her life (family, friendships, jobs, school) and then used the resulting emotional crisis as an excuse to rage at me over nothing, give me the silent treatment, and otherwise abuse and neglect me. It was always that she couldn't be intimate with me because she's angry at her family, she can't even talk to me because she had such a hard day at work, etc.

So there was a time when I would try to give her advice about dealing with her family or boss - usually point out her black-and-white thinking and suggest a more balanced approach. Or she would be freaking out thinking she had some fatal medical condition, and I would try to head off the dysregulation (over doctors not listening to her and all) by pointing out the real facts that showed she did not have that condition. It was well-meaning and nowhere near actually controlling, but she would still react to it very badly.

I was much happier once I got off the rollercoaster, and realized that no matter how many crises I tried to save her from, there was always going to be another crisis for her and another excuse for her to treat me like crap. I'm planning to explore with therapy whether this was a situational thing or part of a broader pattern of codependency... .I've never been accused of or felt like I might be controlling in any other relationship or situation, so I suspect that it was just one of the many ways I desperately tried to ease the pain of being in a relationship with this person.

[Notwendy]

For John Love- I think it is tough to feel like you do something positive for the kids and she seems to undermine it. The only thing I can think of about this, is to do your part of it anyway as it is still an example for the kids. My mother has BPD and the way things were things in our home were different from other homes- friends and family members. Still, the parents in the other homes were able to be role models for me. Just even little things like my aunt taking me shopping, baking cookies with a friend's mom- had a big impact on me. All you can do is your part, but it may make a difference overall.

ForTooRational- I think for the idea of controlling, it may help to get to the reason for it. I think, underlying it all, is fear or anxiety. My do we walk on eggshells around volatile people. With the exception of potential physical harm, there is probably not much to fear. I know that as a child, we feared my mothers outburts and without thinking about it, I brought that fear into my marriage. My H has a short fuse, but he isn't dangerous. While fixing the fridge, he was cussing and ranting, even if it only took a few minutes to do it. This makes things unpleasant, but I would have WOE around it, not asked him, gotten someone else to fix it, to manage his anger- but underlying that would have been fear.

For the moving project- another option is to do your research, come up with choices and ask her to do her own research and come up with choices. She may not do it, but you gave her the option. Then you both can discuss the choices you both came up with. Giving someone a pre-selected choice is not fully treating them like an adult. It reminds me a bit of how we give choices to young children- we let them choose between a peanut butter sandwich or a cheese sandwich ( knowing we have pre-screened the choice) because if they were left to make any sandwich, they'd choose a candy sandwich. By pre-selecting your wife's choices, you are making the assumption that she can not adequately research and choose on her own. You may not like what she chooses, but at least she has the choice.

I can relate to this somehow, as both sides can be controlling. I was enthusiastic about decorating the house but my H would have to see every paint chip and ask a million questions about every decision I made. It was not about the budget- as that would make sense, but I am frugal and price conscious. He'd veto colors, or say things like "you can't have this kind of wallpaper". I have friends who's husbands would step out of this- within budget the wives could pick what they wanted. I would envy them for being able to pick unusual colors- that turned out to look great, but even if their husbands didn't like them, they could appreciate that their wives were happy with it.

This was the part that was missing for me- the house was our home, and I should consider him, but if I had to run everything by him to me micromanaged then, there was little of my own creativity in it. I basically lost interest after spending a lot of time picking out paint chips and having him veto them- many times over along with rants over wallpaper all which led to it being more difficult than I wanted to deal with. Now, somethings are important to be done with research and detail- I would not start a renovation project without his input, but, painting a wall isn't a major decision that can not be reversed. It's easier to fix an ugly wall than a relationship.

But underneath forms of control, IMHO, is fear and anxiety, and getting to the emotions behind the need to control can be helpful.

[TooRational]

Notwendy, to be clear, when you talk about fear and anxiety, do you mean on my part or her part?

I understand that ideally we should not walk on egg shells because we fear the outbursts. In our case, she rarely has outbursts with me (I guess I walk on egg shells too much maybe?), it's mostly with the kids. With me, the problem the way I see it, is that by constantly dismissing her opinion, she feels like an idiot, has low self-esteem and feels controlled. I realize that now and I want to change my behavior.

You're right about the false choice of offering a few selected options. We do that with our kids too. Your approach of offering her to do her own research (even if she doesn't) is indeed better.

I probably also need to let her make more impulsive decisions about stuff that's less important, without intervening with my rational research. In fact, she wants me to be impulsive sometimes, she craves that. She would love for us to go on a trip somewhere on a whim, with little planning (ideally with me surprising her). That's hard to do with kids and that's not like me at all to do that kind of stuff (hence the TooRational name) but I'm willing to try my best to make it happen.

[Notwendy]

Anxiety is on both sides of the coin as is the tendency to control. It may be there in different degrees. Some people are not in tune with it.

I guess one question to ask is what concerns you if she makes a mistake. First of all, she may not, and also, how much does it matter?

On things that matter you might want to have input. Its funny, but I always let my H pick out the cars. He's all about cars, and I'm happy with most anything. However, the last time I needed to replace my car, he just started ranting at me " I'm sick and tired of picking out cars for you, go get your own damn car".  So it was really strange that he just gave up something he usually wanted control over.

So, I went out and got a darn good car for a really good price and that was that.

It's also possible she might choose something better than you would have.

[TooRational]

Yes, I need to let her make more choice without trying to convince her, that's for sure.

I have yet one more story to share. Last night my W absolutely lost her temper in front of the kids. She couldn't hear the other person on the phone and it was an important call. Out of anger, she threw the phone on the floor very violently in front of the kids. She somehow blamed it on me, saying that it was a crappy corded phone (it's actually a good quality one) and that she always wanted a cordless phone. I had always insisted on wired because of concerns about RF radiation. I'm not a freak about it but if I can minimize the risks, I'd rather do it. So even though corded phones have better quality than cordless, she's blaming it on me.

My T suggested a technique to me to try to make her realize the impact that kind of behavior has on the kids (again, my main concern). She told me to tell her "Would you tolerate this kind of behavior from our kids?" Her theory was that this was supposed to cause a kind of introspection and make her realize her mistake on her own. It's supposedly a softer way of bringing it up, without direct criticism.

So, do you want to know her reaction? She said "F*** You. How dare you treat me like a child! I'm not a child!". She was extremely pissed. Granted, we had this discussion texting on the phone, which was a mistake. But still, that particular technique was an utter failure. She rarely used such strong words on me. My W is extremely sensitive to criticism, it's almost impossible to bring anything up. But I had to do it, for the kids. My T says that I have a responsibility towards my children to offer them a secure environment, hence I cannot just let her outbursts go by without doing anything. But I find it impossible to do anything about it.

So, I apologized and went back to walking on eggshells... .I did mention that I didn't appreciate her using such strong words on me, but to no effect. No excuses.

[TooRational]

Another thing that I keep forgetting to mention is that she's currently depressed, after stopping her mess. So she feels that she needs help right now but instead I criticize her. She needs help but I'm not being supportive, or so she says.

[JohnLove]

I had always insisted on wired because of concerns about RF radiation. I'm not a freak about it but if I can minimize the risks, I'd rather do it. So even though corded phones have better quality than cordless, she's blaming it on me.

So, do you want to know her reaction? She said "F*** You. How dare you treat me like a child! I'm not a child!". She was extremely pissed. Granted, we had this discussion texting on the phone, which was a mistake. But still, that particular technique was an utter failure. She rarely used such strong words on me. My W is extremely sensitive to criticism, it's almost impossible to bring anything up. But I had to do it, for the kids. My T says that I have a responsibility towards my children to offer them a secure environment, hence I cannot just let her outbursts go by without doing anything. But I find it impossible to do anything about it.

So, I apologized and went back to walking on eggshells... .I did mention that I didn't appreciate her using such strong words on me, but to no effect. No excuses.

TooRational, I am a electronics technician and health nut. I am particularly concerned about radiation from all wireless products. The radiation from cordless phones is almost inconsequential especially compared to mobiles. In the context of the struggles with your wife I would leave this one alone.

I am concerned by your T's suggestion. I am concerned he may have no real working knowledge or experience with pwBPD. I am not surprised by your wife's reaction. I can see she felt clearly invalidated. pwBPD don't view the world as you or I would. They can be very irrational. They can pick and chose the eyes out of your statements. This particular phenomena is called cognitive distortions. That is all she heard. You comparing her like a child, and honestly the truth (sometimes) hurts. The entire problem is her reaction was that of a child having a tantrum. Did the fact escape you that it had neither a learned approach or a mature adult statement.

My advice is to bring the focus on to the children, and avoid criticising your partner... .at least for the time being. When she returns to an emotional baseline or even become melancholy that may be the time to have a conversation about protecting the children, from BOTH of you, at ALL costs. You may have success there. You may reach her. You can bring up this conversation or agreement in times of severe stress or dysregulation and she may just check herself. I hope so. For all your sakes. 

Strong feelings illicit, strong words. I see your point, but then I don't have BPD. Be careful not to invalidate. I have to keep reading the tools here because these are not always easy to learn or implement.

[JohnLove]

Another thing that I keep forgetting to mention is that she's currently depressed, after stopping her mess. So she feels that she needs help right now but instead I criticize her. She needs help but I'm not being supportive, or so she says.

Depression is often associated with BPD and it often only makes things worse... .as does going off medication. Often there is a spike in symptoms worsening before returning to the before medication state. This is why it is recommended to do this under medical guidance, usually over time with reduced dosage.

Women needing help or feeling that theyre not getting what they need in a relationship BPD or not is a biggie. Suffering from BPD is only going to exacerbate this.  :'(

If you're wife says that, I would tend to believe her. You want to be supportive without enabling her bad behaviour, I see that... .but you have to be SO careful with the invalidation.

My advice is to try to really connect with her on some level and proceed gently. Whether it is going out or for a walk somewhere peaceful. You may have to wait until shes receptive to this, or surprise her. Build a repoire and try to keep it going... .but I don't think it's ever going to be easy.

All the best. 

[TooRational]

Thanks for the advice JohnLove. Yeah, doesn't look like my T has a good grasp of BPD. I have seen her 3 times so far and I can't say that she's been very helpful. I mean, it always feels good to talk to someone but I'm looking for something more helpful. I'll still give her one last chance since I have invested time with her telling my story but I hope it gets better.

I'll read more on how not to invalidate her, be more supportive, less critical, take walks, etc... .I think your suggestions are excellent. Any books or online resources in particular you'd recommend?

[peter5v10]

I have been through the cycle of idealization, devaluation, and discard a few times with my ex.  Every time I would self reflect and think about the things she said and how I could have made things better.  It was only until this past time that I realized that there was nothing I could have done to prevent things from breaking down.  I can totally relate to your example with the dog.  I too would discuss things with her that had to do with the household, kids, dog, etc.  Now these things are not life or death but they are apart of the day to day quality of life that you and her share.  So they are worth discussing.  Mostly when I would brings things up to fix or to discuss she would give off a vibe that I was bothering her.   She would be dismissive in her comments... .to the point where even though she said ok I didn't know if she got the point.  So I would press the issue.  Things would often escalate from there to the point where it feels like I'm the nag and she is easy going and carefree.  However once the issue that I was trying to bring up becomes a bigger problem then that would get blamed on me somehow.  So it would end up being a lose lose.  It doesn't sound like you were controlling... .rather just being proactive.

That is inspiring that you have gotten to that point.  I too am on that journey but not quite there yet.

I totally relate, especially bringing up an issue, it becoming a bigger problem and my getting blamed.

I am by nature careful, thoughtful and proactive. My soon to be ex absolutely despised these traits. He would immediately go to, "you think you're so smart ... .perfect" ... .ad nauseum.

I became afraid to have an opinion on anything or say what I thought/felt for a long time. A situation would go bad and it would be my fault in his eyes for not speaking up.

Counseling helped me to regain myself. Of course, the marriage went downhill from there.

I felt insane for a long time.

I am feeling like a full blown, worthy, thinking, feeling human being since he left.

[JohnLove]

Thanks for the advice JohnLove. Yeah, doesn't look like my T has a good grasp of BPD. I have seen her 3 times so far and I can't say that she's been very helpful. I mean, it always feels good to talk to someone but I'm looking for something more helpful. I'll still give her one last chance since I have invested time with her telling my story but I hope it gets better.

I'll read more on how not to invalidate her, be more supportive, less critical, take walks, etc... .I think your suggestions are excellent. Any books or online resources in particular you'd recommend?

The T you are seeing may be helpful to you, but not so much for your relationship.

And I think your openness and continued approach to making things work is excellent.

You are at my most recommended online resource already and there are book reviews and a recommended reading list here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=33.0

I have read Walking on Eggshells and found it particularly helpful. The author sometimes posts on these boards. I feel it is probably going to be very relevant to what you are experiencing and due to your earlier comment. I thought it was a easy read on what is a very complex subject.

The videos on validation by Alan Fruzetti are also fairly easy to digest.

If you scroll down below the boards, you will see The Learning Centre which is a treasure trove.

Hope this helps.

[TooRational]

Thanks for the pointers! Great resources. I just purchased the e-book version "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" which was one of the recommended books on this site. I'll look at the other resources you linked to as well. Thanks.

One of the issue I have which I'm sure is very common is, how to get my W to come to the realization that she might be BPD? Once that realization is made, there seems to be lots of great resources for self-help, but she first needs to come to that realization. Her own psychologist never once mentioned BPD to her and she hasn't seemingly done much progress since she started with her, about a month ago. I'm in a tough spot because one of the thing that's irritating to her at the moment is my tendency to do research to try to help her out. She wants to figure things out by herself, like a big girl. Me helping is seen like treating her like a child. So I'm not really in a position to help, even though I know that there is great help out there for her.

[JohnLove]

Thanks for the pointers! Great resources. I just purchased the e-book version "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" which was one of the recommended books on this site. I'll look at the other resources you linked to as well. Thanks.

One of the issue I have which I'm sure is very common is, how to get my W to come to the realization that she might be BPD? Once that realization is made, there seems to be lots of great resources for self-help, but she first needs to come to that realization. Her own psychologist never once mentioned BPD to her and she hasn't seemingly done much progress since she started with her, about a month ago. I'm in a tough spot because one of the thing that's irritating to her at the moment is my tendency to do research to try to help her out. She wants to figure things out by herself, like a big girl. Me helping is seen like treating her like a child. So I'm not really in a position to help, even though I know that there is great help out there for her.

pwBPD can't "see" their disorder and that is somewhat frightening to them. If you try to help her or make or see her disorder it will only feel like invalidation to her. She has developed all sorts of complex dysfunctional behaviours to get to the point where she is now. She is only trying to survive. To make her question herself at this point is to make her question EVERYTHING and she will become overwhelmed. The result of any of these things is not good.

She will need to come to the realisation herself and that is never going to be easy. I'm glad she is seeing a T, and even if he suspects she has BPD, he will likely never mention it to her. He knows that would invalidate her in the least and he would lose a patient at worst, and that will render him completely unable to help. It's early days yet. My first thought was I could fix everything by just laying all the cards out with love and compassion. Unfortunately, it's just not that simple... .but being her rock in a hard place will go a long way for you both.

Be patient. Do the research for yourself and your relationship, not for her. Don't interrogate her with her T (unless she wants to talk about a session first). Let her T get on with the job. Take a step back. See what happens. At least if someone else is helping her, it will leave you out of the blame game when it is coming from a third (professional) person. Her figuring out things for herself is the only thing that will create lasting change. She is growing up. Your comment "like a big girl" is condescending. I'm fine with it, and it's probably true but I hope you don't use that tone with her.  

Your closing comment shows great self awareness. Good on you, mate.

[TooRational]

Yeah, you're right that my comment was condescending, I'm letting some steam out, I'm sorry. No, I don't talk to her like that. It's funny how our perception of what constitutes a "proper behavior" is so different between a pwBPD and a non. She gets away with calling me names, swearing in front of the kids, having outbursts of anger, etc. As for myself, I must walk on eggshells and be extremely careful about what I say and how I behave at all times. It's frustrating but hey, it's not like I don't have a choice. I choose to stay so I must deal with that kind of unfair expectations.

I'll put my trust in her T like you suggest. I don't really like her for some reason (she was really trying to pass a lot of blame to me when we met together with my W once) but I'll try to keep hope. I can't do much else at the moment anyway.

When reading about invalidating emotions and the effect is has on pwBPD, I really saw our 3 yo son in the description. He has extreme tantrums on a very regular basis and we're at a loss about what to do. We put him in timeout but it makes things worse. We'll try to seek help on how to handle him and maybe the techniques we learn about how to help him control his emotions can help my W too. I see lots of similarities between them.

[Mutt]

Thanks everyone for participating in the discussion. The thread is now locked for reaching it's post limit. You are welcome with starting a new or similar topic of discussion.