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Skills we were never taught
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Author Topic: "Did I do something bad?" Exhausted of responding to this  (Read 635 times)
FartonmyHeart

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« on: December 11, 2015, 10:10:55 AM »

It's his favorite phrase. I'm running out of ways to respond that aren't potted and condescending, PARTICULARLY when... .well, when he has done something to disappoint or frustrate me.

That's not to say he's not trying to work on himself. I know he is. He's taken certain specific actions, for instance, that were requested of him and that I know were difficult for him, and he's definitely making efforts to be more involved in his environment, compliment/support me, and so on. It's just that of course he is doing so almost entirely on his own terms still, so basically I'm afraid to trust that this is a true step forward and not just him on "good behavior." The onus of setting up T is on him, if I get involved then I am enabling. Yet until a T system for him & us as a couple is in place, I as the "healthier one" have to carry the entire burden of maintaining emotional stability in the household. Cuz ditto on the enabling if I urge him toward coping techniques or whatever too, right?

But if the emotional distance and "everything is copacetic" mask I have to wear at all times slips even slightly and he sees a reaction of disappointment or frustration or worry to something he has said or done, he pounces on it with a quick preface of "Are you ok?" then steamrolls immediately into what is REALLY important: ":)id... .I do something bad?" Worse, it's happening more and more, without any provocation on my part, maybe he's just wanting to be soothed instead of having to self-soothe? Generating a genuine response specific to the moment isn't really possible when these "bad attacks" come out of nowhere, you know? All I can really come up with is variations on things like "I don't judge you, I just love you," but I feel like maybe I'm doing something wrong by saying that, like I'm enabling him in some way I don't quite understand.

Or maybe it's just that I'm getting tired of constantly needing to soothe him, esp when I am actually annoyed or frustrated with him and, were we a "normal" couple, I would be the one getting soothed or receiving an apology instead... .haha. And yes, I know, that's not the way our relationship will likely ever work, and I'm adapting to that, it's cool, it's cool. But in the meantime, any ideas? I'm getting frayed around the edges a little about this specifically and I don't want it to be a "thing," I mean, I hope he gets his T and couples' T set up ASAP but if not I'd like to make the holidays as easy and enjoyable as possible.

Thanks a ton for any thoughts/advice.

**Yes, I have my own T already, & he's BPD/DBT/CoD literate. Actually considered bringing my BPDbf in to him but decided that was not "practical given the unavailability of PDTs in the area" but rather "CoD as hell," ha! At least for now that is my feeling. Plus, he's a 30m drive, which is "too far" according to my BPDbf, and he also has wicked issues with needing to please female authority figures so I doubt he'd want to deal with a dude T for more than half a second. Sigh.
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2015, 10:18:17 AM »

Thank you fart on my heart, I can totally relate to this. That is really good insight that setting up a therapist for your boyfriend is enabling, I can also relate to him asking you if you are ok, and the price you have to pay if you say you're disappointed. I know when my pwBPD asks me if I'm ok I want to lash out at him because nothing's changed, and no, I'm not ok.  I have read that persons with BPD are very highly intuitive and can pick up on your feelings. Its kind of hard to have emotional privacy around a pwBPD unless you really make an effort to guard your feelings.

I would say my pwBPD is more highly functioning, however what you wrote about enabling really got me to think.

I don't know what the married members of this board think.

I wonder if making a simple statement about your emotions without mentioning him might help you feel more sane, or a simple statement about what you want from him.
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babyducks
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2015, 10:28:08 AM »

Hi FOMH,

What would happen, and I am seriously asking not suggesting, if you stopped attempting to sooth him and turned the question back to him to deal  with?    Something like 'why would you think you did something wrong? '  'what do you think is happening between us?'

For me soothing my partner was a bad dynamic to get trapped in.    It frustrated me and disappointed her because no matter how much I soothed her bad moods kept occuring.

':)ucks
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2015, 10:51:48 AM »

  A slight nuance on Babyducks idea is to "slow things down".  Give a non-answer that you will need to consider things for a while.  "Hmm, I'll have to consider that.  If you have something you want to ask forgiveness for, I would be more than happy to listen."  Do you understand the big picture of what Babyducks was saying about soothing your partner?  Perhaps we should talk about ways that your partners soothes themselves, or looks to you for soothing.  Many times the best place to get to is to validate their emotion, sort of a "yes I can see your point of view" and then wish them well in their efforts to make that better.        

FF
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FartonmyHeart

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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2015, 02:35:49 AM »

Hi FOMH,

What would happen, and I am seriously asking not suggesting, if you stopped attempting to sooth him and turned the question back to him to deal  with?    Something like 'why would you think you did something wrong? '  'what do you think is happening between us?'

Ducks, thanks for responding, and with such insight. This, or redirection/stalling, is actually what I do when our dynamic is stabilized externally: like, when there is a third party present or we are in public or something. But I guess I should provide a little more context about our situation.

My partner and I have been together 7 years and are in all but ppwk married. Two months ago his declining mental health accelerated into a complete psychotic breakdown, he was detained in a State facility and, if anything, worsened by the experience. After his discharge from that facility I served as 24/7 caretaker till he agreed to his psych's recommendation to intake for 30-60 days to address crisis symptoms for what she identified (and he and I both recognized, though he later struggled with accepting) as BPD, including disordered eating, self harm, extreme emotional disregulation, psychotic episodes, etc. Now he is 2wks out of what turned out to be a 21-day stay that did get him mood stabilized on antidepressant/ anxiety meds, but he didn't seem to take much of the counseling services seriously. As part of his discharge he needed to arrange for a T; he picked one that was totally inadequate for addressing his issues, saw her the mandatory one time, then determined the 30m drive to her office was too far away anyway and hasn't arranged any T for himself yet. Not even groups/followups available or recommended through the facility he was in.

The language, tone, and physical body language he uses when he "bad attacks" me is so similar to the prodrome for his previous extreme episodes of disregulation/psychosis that I am dead fearful of doing anything but deescalating him. Asking him questions in the vein you suggest can have one of two responses: he says something like "I did something bad and you're mad at me," which means I can then try to engage with him through SET protocol, ideally resolving things satisfactorily for both of us but risking him simply being so disregulated that nothing I do matters unless I am helping deescalate him, or he comes back at me with something to the effect of "Why are you asking me that? You don't trust me?" and all bets are basically off, he is starting on his Dark Road and I follow our Safety Protocols (ranging from disengaging to calling 911).

Writing this out, I'm seeing that the issue is maybe that I'm just not strong enough to be engaging him healthfully while still constantly carrying this anxiety about him potentially "exploding" at any moment again. I think intuitively I've known this from the moment he came home--I set up a calendar with him that was meant to LIMIT our time together; establishing 2 "date nights" weekly, setting an hour aside every day to just talk, and picking specifically solo time for each of us as well. But my health issues, while improving, still keep me home most of the time & since he's been out, he has decided to work from home & has been "too tired" to resume his gym routine, weekly martial arts class, or even attend his 12-step meetings. Soo we're on top of one another anyway. I think I need to find a way to resolve THAT and I'll be able to recover some of my fortitude. <3
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FartonmyHeart

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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2015, 03:10:30 AM »

Do you understand the big picture of what Babyducks was saying about soothing your partner?  Perhaps we should talk about ways that your partners soothes themselves, or looks to you for soothing.

Many times the best place to get to is to validate their emotion, sort of a "yes I can see your point of view" and then wish them well in their efforts to make that better.

FF, thanks for helping me think this out.

I think using the word "soothing" was wrong. I think I should have used the word "deescalate." If you look at my response to Ducks above you'll ken why.

I'm not sure that there is anything my pwBPD will allow me to validate, exactly, when he has a Bad Attack. I suppose that he must be projecting emotions from another situation or relationship onto me when he does it and there is not an antecedent, but he is very secretive and compartmentalized about certain things, particularly things he carries shame about (IE: things he identifies as "bad" when he regresses). In the past I've attempted vague validations aimed at the obvious likely emotions/motivators, but that just triggered him further; reading to him as a violation of his privacy--"STOP BEING SO PSYCHIC" being one of the memorable, cogent responses.

Does having made that semantic correction change the nuance of advice you'd offer? If I feel my pwBPD is  stable enough next time he Bad Attacks, I will try your "slow down" approach, as it is something different. Interestingly, it's superficially similar to how I respond to excessive "I'm sorry"ing (he has a habit of repeating simple phrases, almost like chanting, when he's stuck in an emotion)--I ask him ":)o you actually want me to forgive you for something, or is there something else you need from me?" Turns out half the time when he's chanting "I'm sorry" he's actually trying to say "thank you." Smiling (click to insert in post) Anyway, thank YOU, FF.
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waverider
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2015, 06:01:29 AM »

You may think of it as descalating, but what often is happening is the pwBPD is actively seeking soothing.  Constantly reasuring can set up a dependency on it. So statements like "did i do something bad?" becomes instinctive and not actually representative of what they are thinking.

If you reply along the lines of "what do you think you have done that I would think might be bad?' you are showing that you are taking their comment seriously, you help them work through whether they did, or did not do something wrong. You make them do some work so they wont just flippantly throw the comment out there without thought, or consequence,. They are not being thrown a quick fix.

Neither are you lulled into validating the invalid, as they are setting you up for a yes/no reply, when in reality it may be somewhere in the middle and you are just saying no to keep the peace.
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FartonmyHeart

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« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2015, 08:44:47 AM »

I have read that persons with BPD are very highly intuitive and can pick up on your feelings. Its kind of hard to have emotional privacy around a pwBPD unless you really make an effort to guard your feelings.

Unicorn, I appreciate the time you took to validate me while replying. Smiling (click to insert in post)) I found that both extra considerate of you and a really cool example of how to get in no-risk practice that crucial communication tool. I’m going to start following your example after today on this board with my replies. Thanks for motivating by example!

What you said about intuition and emotional privacy (quoted) got ME thinking… a lot. My morning meditation ended with a sort of epiphany; I guess my subconscious coupled your insight with the explanation of the emotional logic that Waverider laid out. I could be way off base, but I’m pretty sure I’m rather on to something here that will help address the underlying issue and I have you, Ducks, FF, and Wave to directly to thank for that.

With absolutely cleared eyes I can now see some of his Bad Attacks must have been similar to his Sorry Attacks, when his Sorry Attacks are substituting for "thank you." Some (not all) of these Bad Attacks have been him sensing my tension and trying to relieve it with the only coping toolbox he has access to, the one he has developed for himself (and I have enabled). The unhealthy dynamic we established during his decline and breakdown has definitely set up the standard in his emotional logic that I find caretaking for him soothing. Obviously he knows I feel uneasy—I mean, a dog would know that, it’s insulting to imply I could disguise my emotions from my partner even if he didn’t possess the heightened BPD intuition you mention, ha—no matter how even I manage to keep my demeanor; and I am only human, after all. I think occasionally he Bad Attacks to give me an outlet for caretaking him, even if he doesn't actively need soothing in that moment, but because he thinks I need soothing.

Which sounds ridic, but taken in context makes a perfect strange sense. He often tries to anticipate my needs according to his emotional logic. That  is one of the ways in which I can become frustrated with him; when his intentions are to please but his actions can be incomprehensible, stressful, or even outright hurtful. So learning to "read" his emotional logic map is very important to me.

I have to remember that even though it may feel like he is 100% self-focused, he does care about me deeply. It’s just that right now he is very out of sync with the logic the rest of the world uses. He’s doing his best to navigate a foreign city with his own map, so when he tries to express his feelings for me he does so according to the logic of his world, not mine. So his loving intentions may be lost in translation to action… at least until he gets better regulated, I get my sh*t straight too, haha, and we improve our communication pathways. Needing to start from a place of kindness and assuming the best of him, first—THAT was my morning epiphany.

Thank you for helping me find it.  Smiling (click to insert in post))
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FartonmyHeart

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« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2015, 08:52:07 AM »

You may think of it as descalating, but what often is happening is the pwBPD is actively seeking soothing.  Constantly reasuring can set up a dependency on it. So statements like "did i do something bad?" becomes instinctive and not actually representative of what they are thinking.

Wave, thank you for clarifying the emotional logic at work behind this interaction. I'm going to copy it into my communication journal for future reference, it's so succinct and insightful. Understanding clearly the motivations behind both our actions when this dynamic occurs has really motivated me to follow through on the repeated advice offered by all--which is, after all, the only action that felt true to take to me last night anyway.

My hesitation to take it stems only, as I am grateful for you to gently pointing out, from wanting to "keep the peace... ." as he is not in T & still so fresh out of crisis I worry about triggering him w/out him having a support network or effective self-soothing methodologies in place. His escalations are severe and rapid—and I have a neuromuscular disorder that makes any kind of intervention dangerous. But much of this is at this point probably just trauma anxiety from his psychosis period, he's been pretty much OK since coming home, so I do really appreciate you calling me out on my behavior. I’m sure if I can assert my need for some SPACE some of my anxiety will relent a little faster.

And wow, I am getting some deep thoughts this morning reviewing what you, Ducks, Unicorn, & I have posted on this thread; have posted them in reply to Unicorn2014, though I'd be very interested to hear your insight on them if you have the time to read and respond (or don't think I'm just being anxious/avoidant and overthinking at this point, ha).
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FartonmyHeart

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« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2015, 08:55:29 AM »

To all:

All ya’ll replying here with consistent advice have given me confidence that I can effectively use the tools at hand to respect him and his needs as well as my own. When I am not feeling up to the challenge of properly turning the question back to him or using SET (depending on the circumstances), I will try FF’s “slow down” suggestion or, if I’m really not up to it, DDDD rather than fall into the trap of the quick fix false validation I have been giving. Thanks so much all for your help. I don't think I would have seen how I was perpetuating my own problem without ya'll's insight!

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unicorn2014
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2015, 12:33:09 PM »

Fart on my heart I am glad you are gaining insight. I know when my partner asks me how I am or if I'm ok my guard immediately goes up. If you've been following my story you know I've been processing some pretty negative emotions and talking about them with my partner isn't going to help. When I ask him the same question he usually says he's fine or within acceptable parameters or just ducky.

-----------

I'm really impressed by the senior members of the board who have been able to stop care taking their partners.
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2015, 03:17:23 PM »

To all:

All ya’ll replying here with consistent advice have given me confidence that I can effectively use the tools at hand to respect him and his needs as well as my own. When I am not feeling up to the challenge of properly turning the question back to him or using SET (depending on the circumstances), I will try FF’s “slow down” suggestion or, if I’m really not up to it, DDDD rather than fall into the trap of the quick fix false validation I have been giving. Thanks so much all for your help. I don't think I would have seen how I was perpetuating my own problem without ya'll's insight!

The real danger is pwBPD can subtly pressure you into providing certain responses and reacting in certain ways. What they are doing is undermining your own stability and sense of self, and imposing their own on you.

The problem is they lack their own structure and consistency and need you to supply this,. Unfortunately once they have caused you to modify your behavior because you are now mirroring them, you are no longer providing what they really need and so they start to resent you.

eg you are pressured into telling them there is nothing wrong with them, but they know there is, and so you constantly telling them  there is in't is treated with suspicion because you are either lying, or not paying attention. How can you help them if you can't see (or don't care) they have problems? (Thats their perception).

Bottom line is you can't always keep the peace, but it is important that you keep any conflict to its appropriate issue. Deflection only directs it elsewhere.
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2015, 03:31:01 PM »

pwBPD will often play rescuer. This is often them role playing what they think they should be doing so that it creates a good impression. It is usually highly visible, with a lot of offers to help, as opposed to just doing it.

eg. If you are overloaded with things to do and obviously stressed, rather than just doing a lot of the chores for you without saying anything, they will make a big show of offering to help. It is the offering that is more important rather than the doing.

Likewise if you are stressed it is important to them to make sure you are not blaming them, hence the question. It is not soothing you that is the motivating them, it is making sure they are not being blamed.

It may seem like clumsy empathy, but it isn't. Their warning bells are ringing that they may be blamed for something, real or imagined.

Keep in mind their black and white thinking, which says if you are not rosy you must be thunderous, there is no eachway. They are attempting to avoid a pending storm rather than add a little sun to your day.
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FartonmyHeart

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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2015, 09:27:41 PM »

pwBPD will often play rescuer. This is often them role playing what they think they should be doing so that it creates a good impression. It is usually highly visible, with a lot of offers to help, as opposed to just doing it. eg. If you are overloaded with things to do and obviously stressed, rather than just doing a lot of the chores for you without saying anything, they will make a big show of offering to help. It is the offering that is more important rather than the doing.

Likewise if you are stressed it is important to them to make sure you are not blaming them, hence the question. It is not soothing you that is the motivating them, it is making sure they are not being blamed. It may seem like clumsy empathy, but it isn't. Their warning bells are ringing that they may be blamed for something, real or imagined. Keep in mind their black and white thinking, which says if you are not rosy you must be thunderous, there is no eachway. They are attempting to avoid a pending storm rather than add a little sun to your day.

Wave, WOW. I wish I'd seen this earlier.   You are so right and I was SO way off base and I am at a loss as to what to do now.

We were at a wedding all day and in spite of a near miss in the morning, the day was kept issue free. Interestingly, he was engaging in the exact behavior you describe (offering vs doing) and actually called himself out on it, comparing himself to his mother & "tricking" me into what I now see was empty validation again, dang. But the storm hit--or rather,  I identified what storm he's been avoiding/hiding--about an hour ago.

He's been burning himself, probably whole two weeks he's been home, though he only owned the obvious, serious burn inflicted with a hot glue gun on his upper arm that I saw only part of that was "done a week ago" and "a few others" he said were also done "a week ago" (but tellingly, not "at the same time" nor would he reveal them or the method of burn).

I kept things very calm and insisted that we will call the facility tomorrow to find out who is working and he can make a choice from them of whom he'd like to speak to, but that he HAS to talk to a pro ASAP to figure out what to do. I said at the very least he MUST make an impulse control plan of some kind to help him identify triggers, alternative actions, reasons to avoid self harm, etc, whatever the facility pro advised. He kept starting to escalate and accuse me of wanting to "send him away again" and though I think I handled it right (calming with SET keeping focus on the innapropriate behavior without disrespecting his emotional reality) it is clear this is a REALLY DARK SCARY PLACE and I'm not sure that He won't have to go inpatient again, whether he feels he does or not. He made a not-so-veiled threat, telling me when I asked him if he saw any other options to ending our uncomfortable convo than killing himself, that he could "Get aggressive with you. Physical." Then he side-eyed me and said "all the other options I see are bad. Right?"

Too exhausted to do anything but go to bed now. He went out to WalMart to buy toys (for himself, he's been buying games and toys nonstop ).

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