Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 04:39:19 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Survey: How do you compare?
Adult Children Sensitivity
67% are highly sensitive
Romantic Break-ups
73% have five or more recycles
Physical Hitting
66% of members were hit
Depression Test
61% of members are moderate-severe
108
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: BPD devaluation  (Read 609 times)
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« on: January 01, 2016, 05:31:37 PM »

I think it's really important to learn to recognize distorted behavior early , especially small remarks designed to lower your self esteem, so next time it happens you can cut the pysco out of your life before real damage is made.

What remarks or insults did they use with you in order to damage your self esteem?

- while trying to make her feel better after a long day at work: "your teeth are yellow" (out of the blue)

- "you only want to enlarge your business to make more money"

- after being complement by a gay friend "not so much of a complement, she's gay"

- calling me flat out "an idiot" after some small mistake I made. Unprovoked, in the middle of an otherwise nice day.

- "you need space" after expressing my love to her.

Logged
Confused108
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 563



« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2016, 05:50:29 PM »

Oh Man yup delt with this crap too. I was told when I first did a FaceTime with her after seeing her 28 years later I looked like ___. Then when I would tell her I loved her at the end she woul just say I know.  I we spoke about her Exs I was the one who was putting them down!  At the end when she dumped me told me on the phone she never loved me ever romantically ... .just as a friend. I was told by her that she was diagnosed bipolar at 14. But the mood swings and her behavior was changing like every day to every min. It was insane. So yep I know exactly what your talking about. And to b honest  I didn't know anything about BPD . I wish I did bc my ex matches all 9 symptoms to be diagnosed. Just wish I knew about this sooner. She would have been history before she said a word to me!
Logged

thisworld
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 763


« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2016, 06:55:40 PM »

Oh i personally prefer advanced level double-sided compliment- insults that sound good but leave you with a bad feeling (luckily mother is a narc, and i worked on this kind of abuse, otherwise i could be devastated) . for these, you catch the victim  when their guard is down (sex is ideal for this). Then you come up with something like "oh these calves will be fantastic when you workout a bit", "wow baby, love your love handles" (holding my bum and pathetically insisting that my bum is not my bum, it's my love handles:)) once challenged, the stage of broken heartedness follows (a manipulative tactic known as feigning innocence) and you've gotta apologize for misunderstanding them and hurting them. Priceless.

İ once printed out a list of invalidations from a site about how psychopaths talk and rejoiced that every single sentence was used in our home.
Logged
kc sunshine
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Posts: 1065


« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2016, 07:04:24 PM »

I just got this one from our last conversation:

"I'm having a much better holiday season now that I'm out of a traumatic relationship." (she was talking about ours, knowing that I am hurting from the breakup I didn't want)



Logged

kc sunshine
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Posts: 1065


« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2016, 07:06:32 PM »

She also would repeat back to me things I would say in a cloying baby voice-- I guess she did this with other partners as well because she said her others complained to her about it as well.
Logged

C.Stein
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2360



« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2016, 07:10:15 PM »

When I said goodbye to my ex, the last thing she said to me when I asked her to please not forget me was ... ."How could I, your stuff is everywhere."  My "stuff" were the things I gave her.  Those literally were the last words she said to me.

I also told her how much I loved her on a number of occasions that same day ... .didn't even get a response, just a cold-hearted emotionless look.
Logged
thisworld
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 763


« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2016, 07:22:53 PM »

She also would repeat back to me things I would say in a cloying baby voice-- I guess she did this with other partners as well because she said her others complained to her about it as well.

Argh, ifantilizing, minimizing.   İ wonder what they would do if we played along and cried or something. Probably we would be told "oh' dont be silly". How ironic.
Logged
MakingMyWay
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 69



« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2016, 07:25:04 PM »

The one that got to me most was her telling me to shut up, even if we were talking in a positive way. She would tell me to shut up in the harshest voice. It usually wouldn't get to me, but I was so broken that it really bothered me. Still makes me shudder thinking about it. Another was calling me a child and saying I was "silly" which was intended to be a compliment. When I told her how excited I was for Christmas while we were still together, she'd call me childish.
Logged
Confused108
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 563



« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2016, 07:33:58 PM »

Unreal all these responses . I totally forgot that she said I became "overwhelming" for her and became obsessed with her too! I said I'm overwhelming and obsessed bc I'm in love with you? Sick my friends... .just sick!
Logged

thisworld
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 763


« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2016, 07:43:37 PM »

İ think these have an immediate effect (crashing your confidence) but a long- term one as well (isolation). Because some invalidations come in the form of "jokes", which we never get of course because we are too sensitive, we start resenting them in social situations, groups. İts onw thing to be insulted in the comfort of your home and quite another at a party with friends. Once we start getting scared of the latter, we are all theirs. Very dangerous.
Logged
Mutt
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced Oct 2015
Posts: 10395



WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2016, 07:47:17 PM »

NCEA,

I think that a lot of the behavior that you're describing is splitting and projection. A pwBPD don't value themselves highly, have poor self esteem and self worth. A pwBPD has a hidden tape that plays back an inner critical voice. Splitting and all or nothing thinking is seeing the world or the people in the world as either all good or all bad. We all have good and bad qualities but a pwBPD have difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole or the grey area. A pwBPD will split themselves as well and project anything that's bad about them.

I used to react to my ex wife and her criticism and I do have boundaries with her when she starts to swear but once I understand the behaviors I don't attention to what she says. I think it's sad that someone is so critical and hard on themselves. I would want to live through life feeling so rigid and hard on myself. Her feelings about herself, projections and blame shifting doesn't define my self worth.
Logged

"Let go or be dragged" -Zen proverb
Teereese
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 133


« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2016, 07:53:54 PM »

İ think these have an immediate effect (crashing your confidence) but a long- term one as well (isolation). Because some invalidations come in the form of "jokes", which we never get of course because we are too sensitive, we start resenting them in social situations, groups. İts onw thing to be insulted in the comfort of your home and quite another at a party with friends. Once we start getting scared of the latter, we are all theirs. Very dangerous.

So true. My stbxh rather enjoyed backhanded, biting "jokes" in public. Crushing. It is very dangerous and isolating.
Logged
fromheeltoheal
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Broken up, I left her
Posts: 5642


« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2016, 12:11:47 AM »

I think that a lot of the behavior that you're describing is splitting and projection. A pwBPD don't value themselves highly, have poor self esteem and self worth. A pwBPD has a hidden tape that plays back an inner critical voice. Splitting and all or nothing thinking is seeing the world or the people in the world as either all good or all bad. We all have good and bad qualities but a pwBPD have difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole or the grey area. A pwBPD will split themselves as well and project anything that's bad about them.

Yes.  And remembering that we all split and project, and borderlines take it to the extreme.  Also, a handy way for a borderline to simultaneously deal with the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment is to be in control in the relationship: attack someone's self esteem so they don't have the courage to leave while also controlling the emotional distance in the relationship to avoid feelings of engulfment.  Beat-down people are easier to control, and the prognosis isn't good for our self esteem if we go down that rabbit hole.

Interesting, I went on a date recently with a gal who started throwing out disparaging comments, giving me sht, making humor at my expense.  I don't mind humor at my expense as long as I'm laughing, someone is laughing with me and not at me and it's playful, but this gal went too far and I confronted her with it (New behavior! Woot!), and turns out she's not like that at all, she's a nice girl, she was just nervous because she says I intimidated her.  What the heck?  It's cool to be intimidating to someone gorgeous I guess, must mean she likes me, but point is, that was temporary behavior by someone I don't know well, easily resolved with a conversation; contrast that with a systematic attack waged by someone afraid, full of self loathing and flailing, the contrast is stunning, and even more stunning is I never would have recognized the contrast when I was deep in it.  Live and learn... .
Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2016, 01:58:08 AM »

Wait ... .You don't know her. Of course she'll justify it somehow , "I'm nervous" but it might be a red flag. Keep a watchful eye. She's good looking and you're giving her free passes already.


I think that a lot of the behavior that you're describing is splitting and projection. A pwBPD don't value themselves highly, have poor self esteem and self worth. A pwBPD has a hidden tape that plays back an inner critical voice. Splitting and all or nothing thinking is seeing the world or the people in the world as either all good or all bad. We all have good and bad qualities but a pwBPD have difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole or the grey area. A pwBPD will split themselves as well and project anything that's bad about them.

Yes.  And remembering that we all split and project, and borderlines take it to the extreme.  Also, a handy way for a borderline to simultaneously deal with the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment is to be in control in the relationship: attack someone's self esteem so they don't have the courage to leave while also controlling the emotional distance in the relationship to avoid feelings of engulfment.  Beat-down people are easier to control, and the prognosis isn't good for our self esteem if we go down that rabbit hole.

Interesting, I went on a date recently with a gal who started throwing out disparaging comments, giving me sht, making humor at my expense.  I don't mind humor at my expense as long as I'm laughing, someone is laughing with me and not at me and it's playful, but this gal went too far and I confronted her with it (New behavior! Woot!), and turns out she's not like that at all, she's a nice girl, she was just nervous because she says I intimidated her.  What the heck?  It's cool to be intimidating to someone gorgeous I guess, must mean she likes me, but point is, that was temporary behavior by someone I don't know well, easily resolved with a conversation; contrast that with a systematic attack waged by someone afraid, full of self loathing and flailing, the contrast is stunning, and even more stunning is I never would have recognized the contrast when I was deep in it.  Live and learn... .

Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2016, 01:59:51 AM »

Do you have that list of invalidations to copy here?


Oh i personally prefer advanced level double-sided compliment- insults that sound good but leave you with a bad feeling (luckily mother is a narc, and i worked on this kind of abuse, otherwise i could be devastated) . for these, you catch the victim  when their guard is down (sex is ideal for this). Then you come up with something like "oh these calves will be fantastic when you workout a bit", "wow baby, love your love handles" (holding my bum and pathetically insisting that my bum is not my bum, it's my love handles:)) once challenged, the stage of broken heartedness follows (a manipulative tactic known as feigning innocence) and you've gotta apologize for misunderstanding them and hurting them. Priceless.

İ once printed out a list of invalidations from a site about how psychopaths talk and rejoiced that every single sentence was used in our home.

Logged
fromheeltoheal
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Broken up, I left her
Posts: 5642


« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2016, 02:22:51 AM »

Wait ... .You don't know her. Of course she'll justify it somehow , "I'm nervous" but it might be a red flag. Keep a watchful eye. She's good looking and you're giving her free passes already.

Nope, night and day.  After the pain ignoring my gut feel put me in I'm tuned into it full time these days, very handy for identifying when something is 'off'.  Had I done that with my ex we wouldn't have made it past the second date.  This girl is grounded and whole.
Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2016, 03:30:45 AM »

Yes. Too bad that they ARE monsters (self proclaimed, she used that word, along with Nazi), so the tape is actually playing the truth. One thing she loved about me was that I was trying to teach her to accept herself . That was before I realized what she was. Biggest mistake of my life, that's the last thing she needs.



NCEA,

I think that a lot of the behavior that you're describing is splitting and projection. A pwBPD don't value themselves highly, have poor self esteem and self worth. A pwBPD has a hidden tape that plays back an inner critical voice. Splitting and all or nothing thinking is seeing the world or the people in the world as either all good or all bad. We all have good and bad qualities but a pwBPD have difficulties seeing people as an integrated whole or the grey area. A pwBPD will split themselves as well and project anything that's bad about them.

I used to react to my ex wife and her criticism and I do have boundaries with her when she starts to swear but once I understand the behaviors I don't attention to what she says. I think it's sad that someone is so critical and hard on themselves. I would want to live through life feeling so rigid and hard on myself. Her feelings about herself, projections and blame shifting doesn't define my self worth.

Logged
bAlex
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 215


« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2016, 07:55:40 AM »

I was told "you're too soft". For loving her and being good to her! These people are a joke! They fail at life by default! 
Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2016, 07:17:44 PM »

I have another one, out of nowhere she called me in text by my middle name , which is how I sometime introduce myself to total strangers because my first name isn't in English. I told her it was a game, she said "no I just felt like it".

Honestly , BPD are simply women on turbo. All women are like this to some extent , it's just that disordered women go all the way because they can't control themselves. I know how it sounds but I'm saying this from tons of experience.
Logged
thisworld
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 763


« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2016, 07:33:51 PM »

I'm not sure that we are allowed to put links to other blogs. But if you google psychopathsandlove (a website) and write invalidation next to it, I hope it will take you to that site. Some of these are lines that we all use everyday but they are nevertheless invalidating. If this is more or less the only kind of emotional reaction you get systematically, that boils down to emotional abuse. I literally got every and each of them (and I'm not even from an English speaking culture, so it's almost like a universal script)
Logged
C.Stein
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2360



« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2016, 06:04:53 AM »

I'm not sure that we are allowed to put links to other blogs. But if you google psychopathsandlove (a website) and write invalidation next to it, I hope it will take you to that site. Some of these are lines that we all use everyday but they are nevertheless invalidating. If this is more or less the only kind of emotional reaction you get systematically, that boils down to emotional abuse. I literally got every and each of them (and I'm not even from an English speaking culture, so it's almost like a universal script)

I read that article and a few others.  It was very eye opening for me, both with regard to my ex's behavior and my own.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Logged
thisworld
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 763


« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2016, 10:03:56 AM »

You are welcome C.Stein,

I think these relationships teach us certain things about ourselves. In a previous relationship, when I realized how invalidating I could be, too, I felt guilt-ridden. All of a sudden, it all seemed like my fault. I think there was an element of perfectionist codependency in it. I had the chance to correct my style, actually. Nothing changed. My partner just started using this to say "you are invalidating, you are invalidating". I was manipulated with this for a while.

Are you guilt-ridden like that or do you feel validated?

I know that validation works with my BPD ex to a degree, it lessens crisis during communication. However, it doesn't solve problems beyond that. 
Logged
wakingfirst
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 66


« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2016, 12:25:44 PM »

Ha!  Thisworld, love the list of invalidating statements!  My ex was big on 'No one else reacts this way, it must just be you'. 

Another thing he used to say a lot, during arguments: "Yeah, I think we're about done with this." And that was it.  Argument over, because he said so.
Logged
thisworld
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 763


« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2016, 12:35:33 PM »

Another thing he used to say a lot, during arguments: "Yeah, I think we're about done with this." And that was it.  Argument over, because he said so.

Yes, yes and yes! In situations where someone else would obviously apologize as well! Double invalidation. 

Logged
burritoman
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 169


« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2016, 01:00:13 PM »

I heard a lot of it throughout the relationship, but the coldest treatment happened near the end.

"Yeah, I'm dating a woman." - In response to me showing sensitivity.

"You don't realize how much you suck sometimes."

"Be a man! Make a decision!"

"You'll be fine. In five years you'll be fine." - At the time my father was in an extended stay in the hospital, and I was coming to terms with his impending death. This is also coming from a girl who lost her father when she was young, so I figured she'd at least offer some sympathy to me.

Logged
bAlex
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 215


« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2016, 01:09:02 PM »

I heard a lot of it throughout the relationship, but the coldest treatment happened near the end.

"Yeah, I'm dating a woman." - In response to me showing sensitivity.

"You don't realize how much you suck sometimes."

"Be a man! Make a decision!"

"You'll be fine. In five years you'll be fine." - At the time my father was in an extended stay in the hospital, and I was coming to terms with his impending death. This is also coming from a girl who lost her father when she was young, so I figured she'd at least offer some sympathy to me.

I realised near the end and also after the breakup that she absolutely hated any form of emotional response. She saw any grievance on my part as weakness and it only put her off me even more. In fact I was shamed by her for feeling hurt.
Logged
kc sunshine
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Posts: 1065


« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2016, 06:36:19 AM »

Oh man, did anyone else read the invalidating statements and see themselves in it? It was hard not to invalidate during her flashes of rage. I've got a lot to learn.

Invalidation is different than devaluation though, no? She devalued a lot. 
Logged

Fr4nz
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 568



« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2016, 09:58:26 AM »

Yes. Too bad that they ARE monsters (self proclaimed, she used that word, along with Nazi), so the tape is actually playing the truth. One thing she loved about me was that I was trying to teach her to accept herself . That was before I realized what she was. Biggest mistake of my life, that's the last thing she needs.

This is black&white thinking: they are NOT monsters, they are people with a mental illness.

Sure, among them there are bad people, but they are not monsters.
Logged
C.Stein
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2360



« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2016, 11:56:28 AM »

You are welcome C.Stein,

I think these relationships teach us certain things about ourselves. In a previous relationship, when I realized how invalidating I could be, too, I felt guilt-ridden. All of a sudden, it all seemed like my fault. I think there was an element of perfectionist codependency in it. I had the chance to correct my style, actually. Nothing changed. My partner just started using this to say "you are invalidating, you are invalidating". I was manipulated with this for a while.

Are you guilt-ridden like that or do you feel validated?

I know that validation works with my BPD ex to a degree, it lessens crisis during communication. However, it doesn't solve problems beyond that. 

I haven't given much thought to validation vs. invalidation.  Like most people I probably did a mix of the two and I do have guilt and remorse.  When she would freak out for no reason I know I tried to be more validating than not, but if she kept on pushing I probably started to be more invalidating than not.  I know there are things I could have done differently, not reacted in certain ways, spoken in more validating ways, been more patient and understanding.  If I had know then what I know now ... .

Thing is, regardless of how I acted/reacted/spoke the behavior of my ex probably wouldn't have changed.   Time after time I gave her the benefit of the doubt, a second chance, and she never learned anything, even after I made it clear to her what she was doing.  I could have validated her until the cows came home and she would still do the things that hurt me and our relationship.  As long as she is comfortable using my emotions against me to get what she wants (consciously doing it or not) the damage will still be the same.   Then there the other non-manipulative things she did without thought to the consequences, in particular the consequences to me.  It is a toxic combination that leads to nothing good.

A fundamental need in any close and intimate relationship is feeling emotionally safe.  When someone uses your emotions (love) to manipulate you (mostly through fear) it is almost impossible to feel safe with that person or to trust them with your heart (emotional well being).   Couple that with serving up your emotions on that persons sacrificial alter of self-centered need and what is left but pain?   She wanted so much to be emotionally close and intimate yet her behavior prevented that from ever happening on any deep level.  Over time I became more distant, more guarded as a result of this, and it frustrated her and me.  I stopped trying to communicate with her about it, probably because I was getting nowhere and I was afraid of destabilizing her and sending her into one of her 2-3 day bouts of self-loathing and depression.  At this point I am not sure if those times weren't also an attempt to manipulate me ... .probably a little of both.  Anyhow this is one of the things I regret and feel guilty for the most ... .the breakdown of communication.  While it shouldn't have been all my responsibility to communicate she clearly was incapable of it so it had to be me to initiate it.  When I stopped I let us both down.

The most basic of trust needed in a relationship is that of your emotional well being.   You need to trust the person you have given your heart to won't use or sacrifice your heart/emotions for their own benefit.  Even as I write this I think she is better than this and she is capable of so much more, yet the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.  When it mattered the most (to her) my emotional well being was not even considered.  So am I a fool to believe she can rise above this type of behavior?  I believed it for 2 years and she didn't rise above it.  Can/will it ever change?  I still want to believe it can even if by all appearances I am dead to her.

Yes this may all be due to BPD or learned behavior, or both, but for her I honestly don't think she fully grasped the impact of her behavior on me or likely even cared.  As long as she got what she wanted the ends always justified the means.  I do feel in rare moments she can see how damaging her behavior is but it isn't enough for her to stop apparently or to be more cognisant of her behavior in the moment.   

Just about any action could be justified/blamed to make them right in her eyes.   During our last fight, which was a result of her attempting to emotionally blackmail/manipulate me once again, when I pointed out what she did the response was jaw dropping and pushed me over the edge in a big way.  Thing is I had pointed this behavior out to her right in the beginning of our relationship and numerous times afterwards and two years later she was still doing it and still didn't believe she was attempting to emotionally manipulate me into a course of action.

So I do and don't feel validated.  What I do feel mostly is betrayed and stupid for not seeing everything more clearly when I was in the relationship.
Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2016, 12:21:06 PM »

What does it mean really mental illness?

Dysfunctional, out of control, enjoy harming others, lack of empty... .So what's not a monster here exactly? She used that word, not me.

Yes. Too bad that they ARE monsters (self proclaimed, she used that word, along with Nazi), so the tape is actually playing the truth. One thing she loved about me was that I was trying to teach her to accept herself . That was before I realized what she was. Biggest mistake of my life, that's the last thing she needs.

This is black&white thinking: they are NOT monsters, they are people with a mental illness.

Sure, among them there are bad people, but they are not monsters.

Logged
burritoman
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 169


« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2016, 12:36:18 PM »

As long as she got what she wanted the ends always justified the means.

Just about any action could be justified/blamed to make them right in her eyes.   During our last fight, which was a result of her attempting to emotionally blackmail/manipulate me once again, when I pointed out what she did the response was jaw dropping and pushed me over the edge in a big way.  Thing is I had pointed this behavior out to her right in the beginning of our relationship and numerous times afterwards and two years later she was still doing it and still didn't believe she was attempting to emotionally manipulate me into a course of action.

Yup. If I didn't bend over backwards and put her above any and all other important aspects of my life I was ridiculed.

I never called her out much on her actions. She called herself out. She also told me how messed up and batsh*t crazy she is but I never saw her make healthy steps to try and better herself. She would self medicate through drinking, marijuana, occasionally other recreational drugs, and pushing her body through competitive running and never training. I always saw this as escaping reality but also her convincing herself that she's in control of her life. What the BPD never seems to realize is that their path to control and recovery is in the therapist's office. They don't go because it's below them.
Logged
DreamGirl
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4015


Do. Or do not. There is no try.


« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2016, 01:56:30 PM »

What does it mean really mental illness?

To me, I feel like this is the core of what can help in this. "They" being mentally ill is what connects us actually. All of us suffering from emotions and using skills to cope.

If we can ventilate the room of our feelings as much as we possible can, the actions of [our former loves] make better sense. The BPD tool box of dealing with life (projection, splitting) is in fact a set of really poor coping skills for having an extremely low level of dealing with emotional regulation (impulse control, low EQ). They really see the world through a different filter. It's hard not to see it as evil sometimes when there is a vindictive and manipulative nature to it. I also try to remember the phrase from Kreger's book though, "Just because it feels manipulative, doesn't mean it was the intent."  

The core wound of a person with BPD is abandonment. So often times in these relationships, the fear of you leaving (being left) is crippling.

We all have abandonment fears (NCEA, you said that you gave up on monogamy yourself after a 9 year relationship). A pwBPD experiences that fear on a irrational level. A missed phone call can be a cause for panic. A business trip out of town can become a crisis and suicide attempt.

All the invalidation and demeaning remarks are ways to cope with the fear that underneath it all, you don't think your disordered soul is good enough. The pain is less if you're split as all bad. So when you leave, it was because you weren't good enough (not vice versa). I think that every human has at one point struggled in self worth --- so we all understand how that is.  

Literature shows that the attempt to make you feel bad is because the inner turmoil is unbearable. It's what human's do sometimes as a means to cope, make their outside like their inside. Ease the pain, my friends.

An alcoholic stares at the bottom of an empty glass.

A bulimic tries to fill the void.

An adult child of sexual abuse finds solace in the arms of a stranger.  

A bully gets in a bar fight for no reason at all.

A recluse shuts the world out.

You get my drift.

As hard as it is to see, we're often all in the same boat. We're hurt. We're coping.

The mentally ill often will do it in the most maladaptive ways and the reason we struggle at understanding is that we don't take the time to understand because we are too wrapped up in our own hurt.

It helps when we grieve these relationships to feel the emotion (albeit anger seems to run the show), let it pass through you, but not let it be our sole source of action/reaction.

Understand that what they struggle at giving us (love, understanding, compassion) is mostly due to the fact you can't give others what you have no idea how to give yourself. And part of our own failures in these relationships was we were trying to fill that vacancy for them.

Logged

  "What I want is what I've not got, and what I need is all around me." ~Dave Matthews

NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2016, 02:27:06 PM »

What does it mean really mental illness?

We all have abandonment fears (NCEA, you said that you gave up on monogamy yourself after a 9 year relationship).

Wow. Amazing post.

I don't fear abandonment. I just feel that sexual monogamy isn't for me, and it took me a long time to realize that I can attempt to construct an open / sexual adventurous relationship with someone who is similar to me. And I needed a break from serious relationships and probably still need a break.

I don't really see sense in a "serious" relationship before one wants to start a family / have children. I'm 36 and still don't want children and think that for many if not most man this is a "natural" feeling. Most men are more or less arm twisted to have babies by their girl ("we're having kids or I'm leaving" and the rest are unplanned pregnancies. Anyway... .this is a different topic.

Good post.


Logged
flourdust
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: In the process of divorce after 12 year marriage
Posts: 1663



« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2016, 03:04:14 PM »

What does it mean really mental illness?

To me, I feel like this is the core of what can help in this. "They" being mentally ill is what connects us actually. All of us suffering from emotions and using skills to cope.

... .

The mentally ill often will do it in the most maladaptive ways and the reason we struggle at understanding is that we don't take the time to understand because we are too wrapped up in our own hurt.

Yes. I also think that the "mental illness" aspect means that their behaviors and thought processes aren't comprehensible to us without significant mental gymnastics.

For someone without these distorted thought processes, a fear of abandonment by one's partner would probably play out one of three ways:

1. I feel she is abandoning me. I don't want that, and I will try to prevent it by getting closer to her.

2. I feel she is abandoning me. I don't want that, but I will accept it and protect myself by disengaging from her.

3. I feel she is abandoning me. I don't want that, and I'm a mature communicator, so I will talk about my fears with her to see if I am correct or if this is a misunderstanding.

As the partner in this scenario, I can follow these thought processes and actions. I can decide how to react to them.

For a pwBPD, it plays out like this.

I feel she is abandoning me. I don't want that, but I must protect myself. I'll attack her so she has to abandon me, proving I am right. I'll also demand more closeness and affection, because I feel abandonment, and if I am especially nasty to her, I can force her to be nice and loving to me. If she doesn't follow these scripts (perhaps by asking me what is going on or denying she is abandoning me), then I am out of options, and I will melt down and rage at her until she makes me feel better by accepting that she hasn't followed the script of both abandoning me and loving me more.

Even having written this all out myself, I still can't understand it or figure out how to unravel/defuse it.
Logged

NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2016, 03:10:21 PM »

Honestly all the talk about them dumping us because they think they're not good enough sounds to me like an excuse designed to make us feel better about it.

Something like "we're TOO GOOD for them so they left... .Ha, poor them"

I call BS. On this one too. Please don't ban me.

They just can't control their emotions and jump from one thing to another without remorse or shame.

I also jump from one thing to another but I don't suck as a human being. I'm honest and don't hurt people. They just don't care.
Logged
Invictus01
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 480


« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2016, 03:22:07 PM »

Honestly all the talk about them dumping us because they think they're not good enough sounds to me like an excuse designed to make us feel better about it.

Something like "we're TOO GOOD for them so they left... .Ha, poor them"

I call BS. On this one too. Please don't ban me.

They just can't control their emotions and jump from one thing to another without remorse or shame.

I also jump from one thing to another but I don't suck as a human being. I'm honest and don't hurt people. They just don't care.

If you think that's what your ex was, then your ex wasn't a borderline. She was a sociopath or a narcissist. That is a different flavor of personality disorder.
Logged
DreamGirl
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4015


Do. Or do not. There is no try.


« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2016, 03:27:30 PM »

Honestly all the talk about them dumping us because they think they're not good enough sounds to me like an excuse designed to make us feel better about it.

Something like "we're TOO GOOD for them so they left... .Ha, poor them"

I don't think this is what I was saying. I was saying we're all human. Smiling (click to insert in post)

It's also part of our own healing to process to the relationship and the other person's actions (along with our own).

You're also a smart guy ---- so it's about fundamentally understanding the nature of the disorder. It's what this whole board is all about.

I encourage to check out this video. If you're interested.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/treatment-borderline-personality-disorder
Logged

  "What I want is what I've not got, and what I need is all around me." ~Dave Matthews

fromheeltoheal
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Broken up, I left her
Posts: 5642


« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2016, 05:58:21 PM »

Honestly all the talk about them dumping us because they think they're not good enough sounds to me like an excuse designed to make us feel better about it.

Something like "we're TOO GOOD for them so they left... .Ha, poor them"

I call BS. On this one too. Please don't ban me.

They just can't control their emotions and jump from one thing to another without remorse or shame.

I also jump from one thing to another but I don't suck as a human being. I'm honest and don't hurt people. They just don't care.

A borderline leaves an attachment in search of another one to avoid abandonment, either abandonment they feel is eminent or has already happened, which may or may not have anything to do with the reality of the situation or the motives of their partner.

You're angry NCEA, a normal response to abuse and disrespect, and a normal part of the detachment process.  At this stage having some understanding and/or compassion for a borderline seems very off base, screw the evil borderline feels better, and don't make yourself wrong for that, just hear that it will pass.  One foot in front of the other, one day at a time.

Logged
UVA2002
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 57


« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2016, 06:11:17 PM »

The best is when she would slip in An insult or put down about me in front of my friends.
Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2016, 06:14:56 PM »

As a teen my ex was hospitalized for Anorexia or some other issue, I guess that's in line with BPD. But I don't know about recently. Do they keep harming themselves in their 30s?
Logged
UVA2002
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 57


« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2016, 06:19:32 PM »

Honestly all the talk about them dumping us because they think they're not good enough sounds to me like an excuse designed to make us feel better about it.

Something like "we're TOO GOOD for them so they left... .Ha, poor them"

I call BS. On this one too. Please don't ban me.

They just can't control their emotions and jump from one thing to another without remorse or shame.

I also jump from one thing to another but I don't suck as a human being. I'm honest and don't hurt people. They just don't care.

A borderline leaves an attachment in search of another one to avoid abandonment, either abandonment they feel is eminent or has already happened, which may or may not have anything to do with the reality of the situation or the motives of their partner.

You're angry NCEA, a normal response to abuse and disrespect, and a normal part of the detachment process.  At this stage having some understanding and/or compassion for a borderline seems very off base, screw the evil borderline feels better, and don't make yourself wrong for that, just hear that it will pass.  One foot in front of the other, one day at a time.

True but a person doesn't get a free pass for leaving a trail of destruction and damage because of a diagnosis or event. Being abused doesn't give a person the right to hurt others. The minute we forget we get sucked back in another ones web.  The ones who hurt us and brought us here are responsible and accountable for their actions the BPD can only be an excuse for so long they just caught us off guard and it happens to the best of us. Just be strong DONT contact them and keep the power.
Logged
DreamGirl
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4015


Do. Or do not. There is no try.


« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2016, 06:23:15 PM »

Do they keep harming themselves in their 30s?

Self harm can actually manifest as time goes on or vice versa in that it can diminish as different coping skills are used (like alcohol). It's used as an emotional pain reliever. A distraction. Physical pain to deal with the emotional turmoil.





Logged

  "What I want is what I've not got, and what I need is all around me." ~Dave Matthews

NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2016, 06:28:49 PM »

They inflict on themselves, pain, they are.

The force is weak with them.

Indeed.

(Me like your avatar)
Logged
DreamGirl
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4015


Do. Or do not. There is no try.


« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2016, 06:37:46 PM »

They inflict on themselves, pain, they are.

The force is weak with them.

Indeed.

(Me like your avatar)

Oh NCEA, I don't see it as weakness or strength. It just is.  

I'm also with heeltoheel on this one.  

You're rightfully angry. I'd be pretty angry too.

You're asking questions so you can better understand.

You just don't necessarily like the answers. That's OK.

We all do really understand.

I see every bad relationship, every heartbreak, every scar (and there's so many), as a step in a direction where I can be the best version of myself. Be a better relationship partner.

We're all here for the same reason in that sense. We have to take the path that works for us. My hope for you is that each day brings you closer to not being so hurt/angry.  
Logged

  "What I want is what I've not got, and what I need is all around me." ~Dave Matthews

fromheeltoheal
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Broken up, I left her
Posts: 5642


« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2016, 06:50:04 PM »

A borderline leaves an attachment in search of another one to avoid abandonment, either abandonment they feel is eminent or has already happened, which may or may not have anything to do with the reality of the situation or the motives of their partner.

You're angry NCEA, a normal response to abuse and disrespect, and a normal part of the detachment process.  At this stage having some understanding and/or compassion for a borderline seems very off base, screw the evil borderline feels better, and don't make yourself wrong for that, just hear that it will pass.  One foot in front of the other, one day at a time.

True but a person doesn't get a free pass for leaving a trail of destruction and damage because of a diagnosis or event. Being abused doesn't give a person the right to hurt others. The minute we forget we get sucked back in another ones web.  The ones who hurt us and brought us here are responsible and accountable for their actions the BPD can only be an excuse for so long they just caught us off guard and it happens to the best of us. Just be strong DONT contact them and keep the power.

A borderline is not responsible for their disorder, but they are responsible for their behavior.

Hurt people hurt people.

We can only get "sucked in" when we lose control and don't enforce boundaries, and focusing on that and strengthening ourselves moving forward can end up being the gift of the relationship.
Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2016, 06:53:00 PM »

You know, it does make sense that she feared abandonment.

We had an open relationship (as it was long distant). We were lovers but also together, more than she was with anyone else. But she made me feel that she couldn't live like this. She'd rather have a boyfriend and then cheat and be cheated upon , behind the back, because then it's not known and open, than live in an honest but "open" arrangement. She was fine me being with other girls as long as it was on another continent but I think she was afraid I'll have affairs in her own back yard ("her" playground) and that was unacceptable.

But with all honesty , if she'd simply ask me to have a closed relationship, I would have a greed. I was so in love with her.

When we just met I told my best friend that what we like most about each other is out freedom so ironically we could never be together. I was so damn right... .It's exactly what happened.

Me and her are really like a ying and yang... .It is really interesting.
Logged
DreamGirl
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4015


Do. Or do not. There is no try.


« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2016, 06:55:44 PM »

Long distance relationships are really, really tough. There's a certain kind of fantasy going on and expectations don't always align with reality.

I'm just wondering... .

Was she in an "open" relationship because she knew that it's what you wanted?

And just curious with your (vivid!) details of her promiscuity - did she experience sexual trauma as a child?
Logged

  "What I want is what I've not got, and what I need is all around me." ~Dave Matthews

NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2016, 07:05:44 PM »

She visited me in Argentina from Paris. She left, we knew we're crazy about each other but that we're both going to continue living our lives. She started breaking up with most of her lovers (5!) and from the ex and meanwhile our connection became stronger and stronger. We never really discussed any of it, we both understood what and who we are.

Six months later, what we DID discuss was me moving to Paris . She helped me pick up the apartment and all then then bailed out, in favor of yet another long distance relationship.

She's just too wild and need space (as in - boyfriend who lives in another country). If I'd just keep her as a lover, we probably would have still be together. But I risked it all and wanted to move to the same town... .That was too much for her.

She kicked her ex out after a week because he lived together with her in her small studio apartment. I knew that would have been too much. That's why I suggested I'll take my own plsce... .

Anyway... .I hate Paris and if I'd move there I might have been dead by now, and afraid to be out at night. My life is infinitely better now, I just wish she wouldn't be so awful because if she wasn't, I wouldn't suspect she's crazy and connect all the dots as I eventually did. We could have just stay friends or lovers who meet every few months. Instead it turned into this salad of NC on one hand and a PhD in disordered personalities on the other.


I'm just wondering... .

Was she in an "open" relationship because she knew that it's what you wanted?

And just curious with your (vivid!) details of her promiscuity - did she experience sexual trauma as a child?

Logged
UVA2002
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 57


« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2016, 07:10:02 PM »

A borderline leaves an attachment in search of another one to avoid abandonment, either abandonment they feel is eminent or has already happened, which may or may not have anything to do with the reality of the situation or the motives of their partner.

You're angry NCEA, a normal response to abuse and disrespect, and a normal part of the detachment process.  At this stage having some understanding and/or compassion for a borderline seems very off base, screw the evil borderline feels better, and don't make yourself wrong for that, just hear that it will pass.  One foot in front of the other, one day at a time.

True but a person doesn't get a free pass for leaving a trail of destruction and damage because of a diagnosis or event. Being abused doesn't give a person the right to hurt others. The minute we forget we get sucked back in another ones web.  The ones who hurt us and brought us here are responsible and accountable for their actions the BPD can only be an excuse for so long they just caught us off guard and it happens to the best of us. Just be strong DONT contact them and keep the power.

A borderline is not responsible for their disorder, but they are responsible for their behavior.

Hurt people hurt people.

We can only get "sucked in" when we lose control and don't enforce boundaries, and focusing on that and strengthening ourselves moving forward can end up being the gift of the relationship.

Completely agree and now I'm more familiar with the disorder and being 40 years old seeing multiple times unfortunately what happens to girls that live this way the gift for me has been : recognizing the disorder in someone and treating them accordingly. such as running the other way and warning everyone I know to not get involved beyond a ONS.
Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2016, 07:12:46 PM »

About sexual trauma - she said her father didn't want her, he was angry when her mother got pregnant and they divorced when she was a baby. Then as a child or teen, her mothers boyfriend would walk into her room when she was naked, or he was naked... .And the mother wouldn't object (alcoholic).

What is there for a good Jewish boy like me to do other than feel pity for her and take her under my wing?

(Only to be stabbed in the back)

Anyway... .So how come the sex is so good with these people? Because they feel so damaged that they just have no shame and they let themselves go? Or because they seek warmth and passion to compensate for their hate to the world / themselves?

Logged
NCEA
aka YouwontBelieve, Markh, SBSW
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 286


WWW
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2016, 07:15:19 PM »

Good point about the ONS.

For lovers / affairs / sex - disordered women are "the best". Easy and the sex is just amazing. Red flags if you're looking for a relationship but if you're looking for a roll in the hey, it doesn't get better than a BPD or a HPD :-)

I actually have an affair now with someone who I'm certain is a little crazy. She's 35 in an open relationship with a 65 years old. She's a swinger and goes to sex parties, alone, but he drives her there. We meet once a month, and text each other only 2-3 a week, and other than that we're crazy about each other but I'd never get anywhere near her more than these once a month meetings. She's a university professor.

You see, I've already learned my lesson.
Logged
fromheeltoheal
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Broken up, I left her
Posts: 5642


« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2016, 07:27:40 PM »

Anyway... .So how come the sex is so good with these people? Because they feel so damaged that they just have no shame and they let themselves go? Or because they seek warmth and passion to compensate for their hate to the world / themselves?

Was it really her that made the sex awesome NCEA, or you?  Many here describe the excitement and what feels like an addiction being in a relationship with a borderline, and many mistake that feeling for love.  What is that?  What parts in you did she awaken or trigger?  Could it have been that's where the excitement of the sex came from?  Someone who thinks radically different than we do, to the point we don't understand, can seem mysterious, which in turn can be arousing; did that apply to your gal?
Logged
Suzn
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 3957



« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2016, 07:50:01 PM »

Staff only

This thread has been locked. It is at 6 pages.
Logged

“Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have in trying to change others.” ~Jacob M. Braude
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!