Accountability

[C.Stein]

Accountability.  

That one thing which would make "moving on" a little easier, would make the anger a little less poignant, would make the pain a little less severe.  Yes, I want to confront my ex.  I want to tell her in person what she did to me, how utterly devastating her behavior has been.  I want to hold her accountable for what she did.  I want her to know how cold-hearted, uncaring and thoughtless she has been.  I want her to know how at times she has been nothing short of cruel.  

Instead I stay silent which in essence is letting her off the hook.  It is all but certain I am nothing more than a distant memory to her at a little more than 5 months after the final discard, yet I still feel at times like it was yesterday when we were together.  I still find myself with tears in my eyes daily, not really sure why.   I doubt she even thinks of me anymore yet I can't get her off my mind.  

I want to hear her admit to what she has done, to take responsibility for her behavior and actions, to apologize.  Yet I know this will never happen as she has almost certainly found a way to blame me for everything she has done.  

Sigh ... .when will it end?

[once removed]

hey c stein 

i feel your anger and frustration. itd be nice to see accountability, an apology even better. its what we come to expect of others, its what we try to demand of ourselves.

Instead I stay silent which in essence is letting her off the hook.

to me, silence speaks volumes, and it keeps you off the hook. if i had to guess, i suspect my ex expected me to lash out at her. silence on my end wasnt revenge, or about what she did or didnt think about it, but it was certainly taking my power back.

ive been in this position several times, not just with my ex. i had a very close group of best friends for a decade. one kind of had a breakdown, lashed out at us (me in particular), and proceeded to go on a smear campaign. i did lash out once, and he told me my essay had fallen on deaf ears  .

its very hard to sit with these feelings. and of course you dont have to just sit with them, you can put the anger to good use in creative ways; journaling and getting it all out goes a long way for me. in my journal i can be as brutal as i want to be.

but it does end. in my experience, the results are powerful. i have found when it ends, it became this profound feeling of inner peace, as if the anger was just carving that out in me. you emerge with a very clear conscience, no anger, and general indifference.

hang in there c stein. i know this is hard.

[C.Stein]

It's not so much as wanting to lash out but rather wanting to hear her accept responsibility for what she has done.  I am angry though, curse her 100+ times a day, but I don't really feel like raging on her.  I want her to "see" what she has done, to admit her part in all of this.  

She hasn't once admitted to anything and like every hurtful thing she did to me I have now been swept under the carpet and ignored so she doesn't have to face herself or the consequences of her actions.  My silence is exactly what she wants.  She doesn't want to be reminded of what she did.  It is much easier for her to keep me under the rug, to blame me.

You are right though in one thing.  She will believe what she wants to believe in the end and nothing I do or say will likely make a damn bit of difference.  The lies she has told herself is what she needs to feel "good" about herself ... .all at my expense.  It is so incredibly difficult to understand how this woman who at one time claimed to be so in love with me, wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, could do the things she did and without any apparent remorse or guilt.

It would be nice to be able to tell myself "good riddance" and truly believe it, to really find that place of indifference.  I wonder if I will ever completely achieve that.  The questions and doubts will live on and while I may be forced to accept them they will always remain unanswered.  For that reason alone complete indifference will never be achieved even if this all fades with time.

[Penelope35]

It would be nice to be able to tell myself "good riddance" and truly believe it, to really find that place of indifference.  I wonder if I will ever completely achieve that.  The questions and doubts will live on and while I may be forced to accept them they will always remain unanswered.  For that reason alone complete indifference will never be achieved even if this all fades with time.

C.Stein I do believe that there will come a time when we will be indifferent about our unanswered questions. I truly believe that but I know it is something we can't accept at this stage in our recovery process.

Unlike your case, in my case I had lots of opportunities to ask all of my questions because although he broke up with me, he kept reaching out all the time. PLEASE BELIEVE ME when I say that even if you do try to get some answers or ask for validation for the pain they caused, you will never be satisfied with what you get. Their reasons or way of thinking will never make total sense to us and as far as the recognition of the pain they caused you will see that even if they do show some empathy and understanding, it is never to the extend that it is expected. I hope what I say makes sense.

Sometimes I am thinking that their behavior and ways they usually end their relationships are so difficult for us to comprehend, that maybe in the end it might be helpful to reach out again when we feel like doing it so that we can feel the invalidation at its core again and realise (the harsh way) that total understanding of the situation is NOT possible. I am not suggesting you should do that ESPECIALLY IF THERE IS THE SLIGHTEST HOPE IN YOU that this will get you somewhere good with her! But this is what I did. And the more I tried to understand the more complicated and harder everything became until I decided to drop it because I was going down bad.

No contact is hard and harsh and makes us sad and everything but at least it gives us more peace.

Take care

[Confused108]

C. Stein. I totally agree with you. I strongly feel sick or not these individuals should be held accountable for their actions. I myself feel like such an A** for even falling again for my ex.  28 years later no less. Believing all her lies and BS! I of course had no idea about BPD either. Man I wish the heck I did. I would have ran the other way and never looked back.  I believe that these individuals know exactly what they are doing. It's all about them and to hell with everyone else and how we feel. My ex after emails of constant "Projection" did apologize to me . But in the same sense just acted like she gave our relationship a shot and in her eyes was not for her. Out of the clear blue sky of course. You know when the day before they are telling you that you are the love of their life crap. Then rhe next day oh I tried but it's not going to work bye bye. So yes I strongly feel that they should be held accountable for the chaos and mind games they play with healthy people.

[C.Stein]

Sometimes I am thinking that their behavior and ways they usually end their relationships are so difficult for us to comprehend, that maybe in the end it might be helpful to reach out again when we feel like doing it so that we can feel the invalidation at its core again and realise (the harsh way) that total understanding of the situation is NOT possible. I am not suggesting you should do that ESPECIALLY IF THERE IS THE SLIGHTEST HOPE IN YOU that this will get you somewhere good with her! But this is what I did. And the more I tried to understand the more complicated and harder everything became until I decided to drop it because I was going down bad.

I've been down this rabbit hole on several occasions, spending upwards of 60+ hours writing emails that went unanswered.  I never really expected answers to them, not did I really want any as they would have likely been filled with excuses, blaming and what ever else she felt required to shift responsibility away from herself.  When I speak of accountability I want it face to face.  I know that will never happen, she will continue to avoid me like the plague.  Hell, I don't even know if she is still alive or in the area anymore.

I strongly feel sick or not these individuals should be held accountable for their actions.

My reasons are two fold.  I want her to accept responsibility for what she did and an apologize for it ... .even if I know it will not be sincere.  Second, if she has any hope of positive change she needs to be made aware of the destruction she causes with her behavior.   I also do not feel a PD is an excuse for hurtful actions EVER.  Someone who suffers from a PD might not be able to completely "control" themselves but that doesn't mean they can't accept responsibility for their actions.

[JaneStorm]

I also do not feel a PD is an excuse for hurtful actions EVER.  Someone who suffers from a PD might not be able to completely "control" themselves but that doesn't mean they can't accept responsibility for their actions.

If they were able or willing to do that, we would all have a working relationship.

[C.Stein]

If they were able or willing to do that, we would all have a working relationship.

I believe it is possible to have accountability even with a PD.  Even a child can see actions and consequences once pointed out to them.  It's the actions and behavior that really does the damage not so much the inability to accept responsibility for it, although that does some damage too especially if the blame finger is pointed in your direction.  

To not accept responsibility, especially when made aware of the hurtful behavior/action, is IMO a conscious rational decision, not one that is necessarily driven by a disordered mind.  I could be wrong but we are talking about adults here, even if they are emotionally immature.

[JaneStorm]

If they were able or willing to do that, we would all have a working relationship.

I believe it is possible to have accountability even with a PD.  Even a child can see actions and consequences once pointed out to them.  It's the actions and behavior that really does the damage not so much the inability to accept responsibility for it, although that does some damage too especially if the blame finger is pointed in your direction.  

To not accept responsibility, especially when made aware of the hurtful behavior/action, is IMO a conscious rational decision, not one that is necessarily driven by a disordered mind.  I could be wrong but we are talking about adults here, even if they are emotionally immature.

I view it as a mental illness; not something they can grow out of, like children/immaturity. It would take a shift of planets to inspire them to do the painfully hard work required to recover. Their mental illness prevents it. My opinion and observations.

[C.Stein]

I view it as a mental illness; not something they can grow out of, like children/immaturity. It would take a shift of planets to inspire them to do the painfully hard work required to recover. Their mental illness prevents it. My opinion and observations.

So what do you think the PD prevents?  Ability to accept blame and responsibility or the ability to truly see and understand parts of themselves that hurt others ... .or both? 

There was a woman who my ex had to interact with occasionally that drove her crazy, accountability being one of them.  She would go on and on about this woman.  Thing is, some of the things that drove my ex crazy about this woman she would do herself.  I remember on several occasions I would see her acting like this person and would ask her why if when the other woman did the same thing it drove her crazy.  Perhaps she saw some of herself (subconsciously) in this other woman and that is why she disliked her so much?

Point of this story is my ex could see the behavior in others but couldn't really see it in herself, at least in the moment.  I don't know if this is mental illness or a refusal to accept parts of her she didn't like?  We all have done/do it, ignore parts of ourselves that are less than savoury, particularly when those parts make us somewhat unlikeable.  It takes a lot of personal strength and conscious effort to dissect ourselves, to be the impartial observer of our own person.

Is the failure the accept responsibility for ones hurtful actions/behavior a consequence of the disorder or is it simply avoidance of the truth, a coping mechanism which isn't necessarily linked to a disorder? 

I know my ex has "accepted responsibility" for her actions while at the very same time didn't believe she had done anything wrong.  She spoke the right words but didn't believe in what she was saying.   I think we have all done that too at one time or another.  She has also shown self-awareness and displeasure with regard to her own hurtful behavior in the past, but once again did she really see it as wrong or was she just speaking empty words?   Yet even with that awareness the behavior continued, although it did subside a bit.  This I believe is disorder driven, assuming she has a PD.

A point I brought up in my "closure" email was that it didn't matter if she thought what she did (a particular transgression) was right or wrong.  What did matter is it deeply hurt the person she "loved" and significantly damaged the relationship.  Issuing an insincere apology and then going on like it never happened did as much damage, if not more, than the initial transgression.  This was pretty much standard operating procedure for all her hurtful behavior/actions. 

[circularref]

So what do you think the PD prevents?  Ability to accept blame and responsibility or the ability to truly see and understand parts of themselves that hurt others ... .or both? 

It's the ability to accept blame and responsibility. I think they certainly understand their actions can be bad, but more in a reactive way. Like a child who breaks something, hides it from his parents and denies everything. Except a BPD will go a step further and actually believe their own lies.

Towards the end of the relationship with my ex, she was constantly accusing me of badmouthing her to my friends. I realized much later, that she knew she treated me badly and assumed I was badmouthing her behind her back to let of some steam. Except she then turned it around by playing the victim: "How can you insult me behind my back?".

[JaneStorm]

Here is a delightful exchange that illustrates my theory:

Me: "The other night you said you were not good for me. How are you not, specifically?"

One thing I thought of the other night is, your critical comments of me do not make me feel good about myself. If you don't make me feel good about myself, what am I supposed to feel? When will I be "good enough" for you to stop making those comments of me?  If you can't tell me what that would take or when that would be, how am I supposed to just continue on living that way?

(He is referring to my objecting to his womanizing and I have been crystal clear on what it would take... .cease contact with these females, be monogamous, stop lurking on social media to keep up with them, leering in public at 'girls', sneaking around to 'visit' the exes... .)

Me: "You turned the question around to you. That is what you think of me not being good for you, not what I asked."

I can't be my best (for you), if I don't feel good about myself.

Me: "So, you are not good for me because it's my fault?  "

No.

I have been in Kansas just long enough to remember how lovely it is. I feel like I am in Oz, trying to follow his train of thought, and I don't belong there.

He goes on to tell me that I have to 'catch him at his Zen (SANE) moments', in order to get clarity of his meaning. What a tornado in his head... .

[C.Stein]

This brings about another facet of accountability, that being where the pwBPD holds you accountable for their emotions/feelings.  I have seen this reported numerous times on this forum.  While my ex didn't actually say as much (perhaps a couple of times early on) I do believe she held me accountable for how she felt about herself, particularly during devaluation and discard.

[JaneStorm]

“Ultimately, Man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather must recognize that it is he who is asked. In a word, each Man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible.”

~ Viktor Frankl from Man’s Search for Meaning

[Confused108]

Jamestorm... .Ur ex used that Zen crap too? Mine did all the time. Said she had to feel "Zen" or she would feel completely off! She listened to a bunch of meditation music. I swear they all must read the same book of how to S@@ew good ppl over.

[enlighten me]

Before I married my ex wife we hd a house together. Just over two weeks before the wedding she had another man live there for two weeks while I was away. I only found this out after we had split up. I confronted her and she denied it. She slipped up later and admitted it but said it was only because he had nowhere to stay and nothing happened but she didn't say anything as she didn't want to upset me. When it was raised again she denied it and said no one had ever stayed there. Even after I said that she had admitted to having someone stay there she still denied it. So even when caught red handed or after admitting to something they can still deny it so I wouldn't hold out for closure.

[JaneStorm]

Before I married my ex wife we hd a house together. Just over two weeks before the wedding she had another man live there for two weeks while I was away. I only found this out after we had split up. I confronted her and she denied it. She slipped up later and admitted it but said it was only because he had nowhere to stay and nothing happened but she didn't say anything as she didn't want to upset me. When it was raised again she denied it and said no one had ever stayed there. Even after I said that she had admitted to having someone stay there she still denied it. So even when caught red handed or after admitting to something they can still deny it so I wouldn't hold out for closure.

They will lie to their dying breath; taking all of their ugly secrets with them, to the grave. Unreal.

[C.Stein]

I do have a gut instinct, and did for most of my relationship with the ex, that there was something she was not telling me.  I think I told her I felt there was something she was keeping from me and she would carry that secret to her grave.  I don't think I got a response to that statement.

[jujux15]

I do have a gut instinct, and did for most of my relationship with the ex, that there was something she was not telling me.  I think I told her I felt there was something she was keeping from me and she would carry that secret to her grave.  I don't think I got a response to that statement.

I can totally understand that to this day things happened between us that I can't explain her explanations never added up and when I'd confront her eventually some weird truth was revealed but if that was the truth why couldn't you just say that?

[MaroonLiquid]

It is so incredibly difficult to understand how this woman who at one time claimed to be so in love with me, wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, could do the things she did and without any apparent remorse or guilt.

I can't tell you how many times I have said this in the past year and a half.  It truly breaks my heart and can't even explain the wound that exists.  My wife told me early on in our r/s that God told her that she was supposed to love me unconditionally, always be there for me as no one ever had and finally understanding what a "marriage covenant" actually meant.  I bought it hook, line and sinker.  I believe that she really meant it at the time.  She lied to my kids right after we split up and told them we would work things out.  Amazes me though that they can cast that aside when it's time to discard... .:'(  Not trying to hijack this thread, but thought I would share this...

[JaneStorm]

Mine is just nothing more than poison rolled in sugar. I will get accountability FROM Me, TO Me.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I believe it is possible to have accountability even with a PD.  Even a child can see actions and consequences once pointed out to them.  It's the actions and behavior that really does the damage not so much the inability to accept responsibility for it, although that does some damage too especially if the blame finger is pointed in your direction.  

To not accept responsibility, especially when made aware of the hurtful behavior/action, is IMO a conscious rational decision, not one that is necessarily driven by a disordered mind.  I could be wrong but we are talking about adults here, even if they are emotionally immature.

I respectfully disagree with this.  Not accepting responsibility is, unfortunately, not a rational or conscious decision for a pwBPD.  Shame, guilt, and remorse are so emotionally overwhelming to them that they can't process it, and their brains shut it out.  It is simply a limitation of their disability.

When my ex was confronted with how he was hurting me, it dysregulated him so badly that he became delusional.  What good would it do to confront such a person again?  I will only get more of the same.  His brain will do anything to shut out the feeling that he is a "bad person," especially in emotionally charged or confrontational situations.  The most that I can hope for is that he will realize it and process it very slowly, maybe months or years down the road, if I leave him alone.

It's very easy to project our own inner life on pwBPD, and imagine that if we were in the same situation, we'd handle things so differently.  We'd apologize, we'd feel remorse, we'd right our wrongs.  But we don't have the core trauma that pwBPD have, and as a consequence, we are able to emotionally process the things we do wrong and learn from them proactively.  You just can't ask a child to process adult emotions.  Yes, children understand when they do something wrong, but only on a very primitive level that does not include the empathy you're so hungry for.  Do you really want to put yourself in a position of scolding another adult as if he or she is a child?  Is that really closure?

Waiting for remorse or apology from a pwBPD is only making YOU hostage to the disease as well.

When I first started posting here, another member posted that knowing that the person has a mental illness IS your closure.  At the time I saw that as a cop-out, but I now see that it is very wise.  I had to recycle once to get it.  It's true, though.  My ex is never going to learn from his misdeeds like someone with more emotional maturity.  He probably won't grow from this.  He will probably do the same thing over again with someone else.  Knowing that, I understand that I've gotten everything I ever will from him.

You're free when the pwBPD no longer has anything you need.

[JaneStorm]

I believe it is possible to have accountability even with a PD.  Even a child can see actions and consequences once pointed out to them.  It's the actions and behavior that really does the damage not so much the inability to accept responsibility for it, although that does some damage too especially if the blame finger is pointed in your direction.  

To not accept responsibility, especially when made aware of the hurtful behavior/action, is IMO a conscious rational decision, not one that is necessarily driven by a disordered mind.  I could be wrong but we are talking about adults here, even if they are emotionally immature.

I respectfully disagree with this.  Not accepting responsibility is, unfortunately, not a rational or conscious decision for a pwBPD.  Shame, guilt, and remorse are so emotionally overwhelming to them that they can't process it, and their brains shut it out.  It is simply a limitation of their disability.

When my ex was confronted with how he was hurting me, it dysregulated him so badly that he became delusional.  What good would it do to confront such a person again?  I will only get more of the same.  His brain will do anything to shut out the feeling that he is a "bad person," especially in emotionally charged or confrontational situations.  The most that I can hope for is that he will realize it and process it very slowly, maybe months or years down the road, if I leave him alone.

It's very easy to project our own inner life on pwBPD, and imagine that if we were in the same situation, we'd handle things so differently.  We'd apologize, we'd feel remorse, we'd right our wrongs.  But we don't have the core trauma that pwBPD have, and as a consequence, we are able to emotionally process the things we do wrong and learn from them proactively.  You just can't ask a child to process adult emotions.  Yes, children understand when they do something wrong, but only on a very primitive level that does not include the empathy you're so hungry for.  Do you really want to put yourself in a position of scolding another adult as if he or she is a child?  Is that really closure?

Waiting for remorse or apology from a pwBPD is only making YOU hostage to the disease as well.

When I first started posting here, another member posted that knowing that the person has a mental illness IS your closure.  At the time I saw that as a cop-out, but I now see that it is very wise.  I had to recycle once to get it.  It's true, though.  My ex is never going to learn from his misdeeds like someone with more emotional maturity.  He probably won't grow from this.  He will probably do the same thing over again with someone else.  Knowing that, I understand that I've gotten everything I ever will from him.

You're free when the pwBPD no longer has anything you need.

I agree, 100%. Once I found the reading material, I looked at him differently. One more recycle for his kids' sake and I saw a peek at the same-old and I knew. This is beyond anything to do with me.

That is closure.

He is still trying to spin himself but I know he is just spinning in circles. I love him and pity him but I will not spin with him.

[C.Stein]

I respectfully disagree with this.  Not accepting responsibility is, unfortunately, not a rational or conscious decision for a pwBPD.  Shame, guilt, and remorse are so emotionally overwhelming to them that they can't process it, and their brains shut it out.  It is simply a limitation of their disability.

I can see this being the case with some people but certainly not all.  My ex was not like this, at least not entirely.  I believe she can see a wrong and take responsibility for it, at least in the moment.  The problem was over time I think she would convince herself that it wasn't her fault, that she was justified.  Even if she still admits it was "wrong", in her own mind she may not really believe it was.

My desire here for accountability is for her to acknowledge what she did was wrong, for her to know what she did to me and how it destroyed me.  This does not require emotions.  She will believe what she wants in the end, tell herself what she needs to in order to not feel like a bad person, BUT she will be aware the truth regardless of the lies she tells herself.  This is the only accountability I desire ... .I know it will likely not last in her mind but at least it will have been acknowledged.  This is all a pipe dream anyhow.  I will never get this from her, I probably will never see or talk to her again, but it doesn't make me want it any less.

When my ex was confronted with how he was hurting me, it dysregulated him so badly that he became delusional.  What good would it do to confront such a person again?  I will only get more of the same.  His brain will do anything to shut out the feeling that he is a "bad person," especially in emotionally charged or confrontational situations.  The most that I can hope for is that he will realize it and process it very slowly, maybe months or years down the road, if I leave him alone.

The sentence in bold is the good that comes from it.  How can someone find the truth if no one ever challenges the lies that person tells themselves?  I'm not suggesting here that anyone throw themselves back into the pit of fire in order to achieve this, just pointing it out.  I will note however when I stopped challenging my exes bad behavior I was effectively enabling that behavior and naturally it never stopped.  Would it have stopped if I continued to challenge it ... .maybe, maybe not?  This question and doubt I will have to live with for the rest of my life.

It's very easy to project our own inner life on pwBPD, and imagine that if we were in the same situation, we'd handle things so differently.  We'd apologize, we'd feel remorse, we'd right our wrongs.  But we don't have the core trauma that pwBPD have, and as a consequence, we are able to emotionally process the things we do wrong and learn from them proactively.  You just can't ask a child to process adult emotions.  Yes, children understand when they do something wrong, but only on a very primitive level that does not include the empathy you're so hungry for.  Do you really want to put yourself in a position of scolding another adult as if he or she is a child?  Is that really closure?

I see this as a simple black and white issue.  This action led to this result.  This is a logical association, not one of emotions.  It is no different than the association between putting your hand over an open flame and getting burnt.  Action -> Result.  There is no need for emotions or emotional maturity to process this.  Processing the emotions from the event comes after logically processing the event.  I put my hand in the flame and I got burnt.  There is no emotional factor needed here to acknowledge this.  If people are incapable of doing this they would not be able to function at all in society.  I believe many of our exes are capable of functioning in society, some better than others, and only a few are actually institutionalized as a result of a PD because they cannot.

I know with certainty my ex is capable of acknowledging the consequences of her actions once pointed out to her.  She does not need to feel guilt and remorse to do this, nor does anyone.  That said, even though that acknowledgement would be enough for me I still want her to feel guilt and remorse for her actions!

Waiting for remorse or apology from a pwBPD is only making YOU hostage to the disease as well.  When I first started posting here, another member posted that knowing that the person has a mental illness IS your closure.

And that is the crux of the problem.  I don't know she is mentally ill, I am only assuming she is.  Regardless of how likely that assumption is to be true it still remains an assumption.  How does one get true closure from an assumption?  You don't and you are just left with finding a way to accept not knowing anything with any certainty.  I guess this is what is know as radical acceptance, and that is very difficult for some of us to do.

Just to be clear I am not waiting for an apology, especially since I will never get one.  I do however want an apology, that doesn't mean I am going to wait the rest of my life for it though.


I'm going to go off topic here now since it's my thread. 

As most everyone who has been on this board for a while knows, BPD is a spectrum disorder which leads to many different types of behavior.  There is no BPD cookie cutter.  The disorder will manifest itself in as many ways as there are people who suffer from it.  Yes there are many similarities between our exes and these are almost certainly not a coincidence.  There are also many similarities between us "nons" and in some cases there are similarities between us and our exes.

Probably the two most frequent associations I have seen on this site are lying and the inability to accept responsibility for actions/behavior.  Let's not forget that neither of these are diagnostic criteria for the disorder, nor does it necessarily take a disordered person to have these behavioral characteristics.  I do believe these can be a side affect of the disorder, if you will, but not a necessity.  Another thing I have noticed is the experiences people report are heavily skewed towards the most severe manifestations of the disorder.  My ex on the other hand was at the opposite end of the scale.  Does that make her any less potentially disordered ... .NO!  That however also means some of the behavior you might see in a person who is a "10" you may never see in a person who is a "3", or at least the manifestation will be less severe.

To speak generally here, not specifically at any member, there are a couple of problems I see often on this site.  I am not trying to ruffle feathers here just making some observations.  Let's consider the following.

The vast majority of our exes are undiagnosed.  We can make associations between our exes behavior and the diagnostic criteria but without a formal diagnosis we are still making assumptions.  Most all of us are simply not qualified to make a diagnosis of our ex so we need to be careful with the armchair psychiatry here, myself included.

I've taken several screening tests using what I know of my ex and the results strongly indicated she likely has BPD.  The problem is there are questions on the screening test that only she can answer.  I made a best guess on some questions based on my knowledge of her.  This naturally can impact the accuracy of the results.  Regardless of the screening test results at the end of the day she still does not have a formal diagnosis so I cannot say with any certainty she is "disordered" regardless of how good the chances are she is.  Yes, it is MUCH easier for me to assume she does and while this is probably an accurate assumption it is still an assumption.

The people here who are "lucky" enough to have a formal diagnosis of (B)PD for their ex at least have solid ground to stand on when it comes to the finger pointing.  And let's be honest, this is what many of us (me included) are doing here, pointing fingers at the "disordered person" or the assumed PD and rightly so in most cases.   However it also leads us down a dangerous road where we may never look at our own participation in the relationship.  It is all too easy to put all the blame on the disorder and the person afflicted with it.  If that happens don't we end up being no different than the disordered person who is blaming us for everything?

That said, there is no excusing the hurtful, destructive behavior from our exes!  The behavior doesn't have to be disordered driven to hurt or destroy us.  The disorder makes it easier for us to understand why these people behave the way they do and perhaps even forgive them at some point.  It however can also make it easier for us to look away from ourselves and this can potentially keep us stuck in a perpetual cycle of toxic relationships.  Again, note the similarity of this with the perpetual cycle of toxic relationships that a pwBPD has.

Let's pretend for a moment to be an outside impartial observer of this community.  We see someone post a story on the forum, detailing all the hurtful behavior, betrayals, lies, cheating, etc... .  Now lets assume that persons ex does the same, posting his/her story detailing the very same kind of things but from his/her skewed downside up perspective.  The participants here will sympathize and empathize with them just as they did with the "non".  Now as the impartial observer who do you believe ... .who is right ... .who's finger is pointing in the right direction?

The point here is despite our emotional pain we as "nons" should at least try to remain objective about our relationships.  This is difficult if not impossible when the emotional hurricane is raging inside your mind and heart but when it all calms down, and it will, objectivity is something we should strive for.  This will allow us to see things, both within ourselves and in the broken relationship, without clouding our perception with emotions.  This will hopefully lead us to make any necessary changes within ourselves, if the are any needed, so we can eventually find a partner who can participate in a healthy, loving and supportive relationship with us.

The other thing I see often is people making assumptions about what their ex is thinking and feeling.  I do it all too often and while I may be correct in my assumptions the truth of the matter is I don't have a damn clue what goes on in her head and I never will.  The only mind I can really look at here is my own.

[once removed]

c stein, thats a pretty balanced, thoughtful, accurate, and mature assessment. good for you for reaching it 

[GreenEyedMonster]

My desire here for accountability is for her to acknowledge what she did was wrong, for her to know what she did to me and how it destroyed me.  This does not require emotions. 

Everything is about emotions for a pwBPD.  They use their emotions to determine the truth.  You may be a very rational person, but it is likely that your ex is not.  The precise reason that a pwBPD melts away from accountability like a vampire in the sun is because of the unpleasant emotions involved.  You might be able to process right and wrong as a matter of facts, but if your ex truly has BPD, I doubt that she can.  I think that asking for an intellectual acknowledgment of wrong from a pwBPD is asking A LOT more than you might realize.  pwBPD can't detach themselves from a situation emotionally to the degree it would take to talk over "just the facts."

As I've said before, when I tried to hold my ex accountable for his numerous selfish actions in our relationship, he became so dysregulated that he became delusional/psychotic.  That is because he doesn't have the capacity to process the emotions that come along with an "acknowledgment."  Admitting even the tiniest fault for him results in intense feelings of self-loathing, so his extremely primitive defense mechanisms kick in to protect him from this.  I truly believe that a rational, factual discussion of what he did wrong in our relationship is actually not possible.  Moreover, I believe that on a subconscious level, he is very much suffering because of what he did.

I am not making excuses for a person with BPD.  I am stating the factual limitations of their condition.  Just like a physical disease might keep a person from walking, a mental illness can keep someone from being able to emotionally process certain events.  You can't say that a disability is no excuse for being disabled.  BPD is an emotional disability.

When someone hurts you in a relationship and doesn't stop, your recourse is to break up with them and move on.  You have no stake in whether or not she learns or grows from her experience because she's no longer your problem.  You can't discipline another adult and "teach them a lesson."  Often times there is no justice in the world when people do you emotional harm. 

I think that needing the pwBPD to acknowledge something, apologize, feel a certain way, or act a certain way is an emotional trap that keeps us from moving on.  The closure has to be you deciding to move out of a hurtful situation, knowing that is the best for you.  Whether she is happy or realizes what she has done has absolutely no bearing on your future.

[JaneStorm]

My desire here for accountability is for her to acknowledge what she did was wrong, for her to know what she did to me and how it destroyed me.  This does not require emotions. 

This is where I am at.

Everything is about emotions for a pwBPD.  They use their emotions to determine the truth.  You may be a very rational person, but it is likely that your ex is not.  The precise reason that a pwBPD melts away from accountability like a vampire in the sun is because of the unpleasant emotions involved.  You might be able to process right and wrong as a matter of facts, but if your ex truly has BPD, I doubt that she can.  I think that asking for an intellectual acknowledgment of wrong from a pwBPD is asking A LOT more than you might realize.  pwBPD can't detach themselves from a situation emotionally to the degree it would take to talk over "just the facts."

As I've said before, when I tried to hold my ex accountable for his numerous selfish actions in our relationship, he became so dysregulated that he became delusional/psychotic.  That is because he doesn't have the capacity to process the emotions that come along with an "acknowledgment."  Admitting even the tiniest fault for him results in intense feelings of self-loathing, so his extremely primitive defense mechanisms kick in to protect him from this.  I truly believe that a rational, factual discussion of what he did wrong in our relationship is actually not possible.  Moreover, I believe that on a subconscious level, he is very much suffering because of what he did.

I am not making excuses for a person with BPD.  I am stating the factual limitations of their condition.  Just like a physical disease might keep a person from walking, a mental illness can keep someone from being able to emotionally process certain events.  You can't say that a disability is no excuse for being disabled.  BPD is an emotional disability.

When someone hurts you in a relationship and doesn't stop, your recourse is to break up with them and move on.  You have no stake in whether or not she learns or grows from her experience because she's no longer your problem.  You can't discipline another adult and "teach them a lesson."  Often times there is no justice in the world when people do you emotional harm. 

I think that needing the pwBPD to acknowledge something, apologize, feel a certain way, or act a certain way is an emotional trap that keeps us from moving on.  The closure has to be you deciding to move out of a hurtful situation, knowing that is the best for you.  Whether she is happy or realizes what she has done has absolutely no bearing on your future.

[C.Stein]

You might be able to process right and wrong as a matter of facts, but if your ex truly has BPD, I doubt that she can.  I think that asking for an intellectual acknowledgment of wrong from a pwBPD is asking A LOT more than you might realize.  pwBPD can't detach themselves from a situation emotionally to the degree it would take to talk over "just the facts."

This is the problem here with assigning a blanket set of assumptions in that all people with BPD will behave and think in a certain way.  Yes there are predictable behaviours, if there weren't it wouldn't be a diagnosable disorder.  Is the inability to acknowledge an action or behavior as right or wrong one of those predictable behaviours?   To my knowledge it is not.  Neither is lying and cheating yet you see these "traits" often directly associated with pwBPD.

www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2012_December_16_v2.pdf

Yes, the action may have been emotionally driven and the consequences may be emotionally loaded but that doesn't mean the actions themselves cannot be detached from the emotions surrounding them and acknowledged as right or wrong by the pwBPD.  If a pwBPD can do this in their normal day to day life then it should follow they can do it in an intimate relationship or 5 months after it ended.  In short, some will have the capacity to do it, some will not.

Perhaps you can imply from these criteria certain things may or may not occur under a given set of circumstances and environmental conditions but given the disorder is highly variable one cannot reliably say one combination of criteria will result in the same behavior as another combination or even the same combination.  Everyone is different, circumstances are different, even from one relationship to another for the pwBPD.  This is one reason why it is classified as a spectrum disorder.  I do understand the underlying shame, self-loathing, etc... .that many pwBPD deal with and how that can lead to the inability to accept responsibility or even any acknowledgement of wrong doing.  This however does not mean they ALL are incapable of it.  Some certain may be, your ex being one of them.

I do see what you are saying here GEM and based on your experience and observations with your ex it may certainly be true and may be true in many other cases, or it may not.  Based on my experience and observations with my ex it is not.  She can process and acknowledge right and wrong.   Can she do it when it really matters ... .i.e. in the moment?  I have my doubts if she can consistently, but she can do it.  Can she do it after the fact when pointed out to her?  Yes she can, I have seen her do it multiple times and I would not want acknowledgement of what she did now if she couldn't.   Can she do it without making excuses ... .unlikely, but she can still acknowledge it as right or wrong even if she feels justified in the action.

So does this mean she doesn't suffer from BPD?   I don't believe it does, it just shows how a spectrum disorder manifests itself in different ways in different people.

[GreenEyedMonster]

You know her better than I do.  It also depends on how emotional the situation is for that person.  I am not sure if my ex will ever be able to emotionally process what happened.  A year and a half on, he was just beginning to deal with what happened with his other ex.

For your own sake, though, I think it's an exercise in self-torment to expect any kind of closure from a pwBPD.  They don't find closure for themselves in these situations.  Like I've said before, you're only really free when the other person doesn't have anything you want.  In a way, as long as she can withhold an apology you need to move on, you're still in the relationship.  Whether she is capable or not, why give her that kind of control?

I still want my exBPD to miss me and suffer and worry that I'm gone.  Maybe he does a little bit.  But I am trying myself to move beyond caring about this.  Heck, I feel abandoned when he doesn't stalk me yet.  I still have one foot in the ball and chain.  When I really no longer care what he does, I know I'll be out of the woods.

[C.Stein]

You know her better than I do.  It also depends on how emotional the situation is for that person.  I am not sure if my ex will ever be able to emotionally process what happened.  A year and a half on, he was just beginning to deal with what happened with his other ex.

This is something I do completely agree with.  The level of emotions involved do without a doubt play into the ability of a person to accept responsibility/accountability.  I believe this is something universally true, PD or not.

For your own sake, though, I think it's an exercise in self-torment to expect any kind of closure from a pwBPD.  They don't find closure for themselves in these situations.  Like I've said before, you're only really free when the other person doesn't have anything you want.  In a way, as long as she can withhold an apology you need to move on, you're still in the relationship.  Whether she is capable or not, why give her that kind of control?

I won't get closure from her, I am aware of that much.  Honestly GEM, I will never be truly free from her.  I gave her a part of myself I have never given anyone.  This alone keeps me tied to her, regardless of her being in my life or not.

I haven't asked her for accountability or an apology, nor is it likely I ever will.   I just want it!  

I still want my exBPD to miss me and suffer and worry that I'm gone.  Maybe he does a little bit.  But I am trying myself to move beyond caring about this.  Heck, I feel abandoned when he doesn't stalk me yet.  I still have one foot in the ball and chain.  When I really no longer care what he does, I know I'll be out of the woods.

I want the same things GEM.  I do still care.  Can you ever truly not care what someone you once loved with all your heart does or what happens to them?  I think you can still care the trick is to be able to do it without being emotionally/mentally attached to the ex.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

Maybe that's why I place such low value on it.  Even if a pwBPD realizes what they've done one minute, their defense mechanisms come sweeping back in the next.  Anything remotely resembling "learning" does not take place.  No real change happens.  When he first reunited with me, I assumed it was kind of a forward momentum, especially when he apologetically tried to undo some of the things he did.  Nope.  There was no momentum.  It was fleeting.  That's why I think it's such a dangerous thing to hope for.  They can give us that "closure" that we so crave, and wipe it away in a heartbeat.  I would say that experienced drastically changed what I feel like I need from him.

[JaneStorm]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

Maybe that's why I place such low value on it.  Even if a pwBPD realizes what they've done one minute, their defense mechanisms come sweeping back in the next.  Anything remotely resembling "learning" does not take place.  No real change happens.  When he first reunited with me, I assumed it was kind of a forward momentum, especially when he apologetically tried to undo some of the things he did.  Nope.  There was no momentum.  It was fleeting.  That's why I think it's such a dangerous thing to hope for.  They can give us that "closure" that we so crave, and wipe it away in a heartbeat.  I would say that experienced drastically changed what I feel like I need from him.

Exactly. They deny it even happened; even if they are on film, I think they would say they were 'tricked'. Disassociation to the n-th degree.

[C.Stein]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

At least you got to see it for a little bit.  I would be lucky to get 10 minutes with her face to face at this point.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I got to see my exBPD act embarrassed and ashamed of what he did to me.

This lasted about two hours.

Then he started getting delusional again and threatening me.

At least you got to see it for a little bit.  I would be lucky to get 10 minutes with her face to face at this point.

I got to see it, sure, but I learned a couple things from it.

Most importantly, it proved what everyone on this site has been saying -- the only reason he decided to be "accountable" is because he thought I was getting away, and needed to stop his supply from escaping.  Once I seemed emotionally available again, there was no need to be accountable, so he stopped.  I don't think this is a conscious cycle on his part, and I don't think that he thinks in terms of "supply" and "victims," but he is very predictable.  Like I said, pwBPD will rearrange everything around their own emotional needs -- values, beliefs, morals, integrity.  The emotional need comes first.  Not consciously, but subconsciously.  Seeing that play out so clearly was enough "closure" for me.

Getting an apology right now for me would be a dangerous thing.  It would feel oh-so-good, but it would really be just a hook for me to come back and meet his emotional needs again.

[C.Stein]

pwBPD will rearrange everything around their own emotional needs -- values, beliefs, morals, integrity.  The emotional need comes first.  Not consciously, but subconsciously.

Yes, I did see this in my ex to some extent.

Getting an apology right now for me would be a dangerous thing.  It would feel oh-so-good, but it would really be just a hook for me to come back and meet his emotional needs again.

You say you have achieved closure but have you?  The above might suggest you haven't?  You, like myself, seem to be still attached to the ex.  Perhaps not in the same way but attached none-the-less.  If we are still attached then have we achieved the closure we need?

[GoingBack2OC]

I can only say I'm sorry you too are going through this. It's really tough. I am going through much of the same right now.

My ex basically, at least towards the end, and honestly all throughout our relationship, did nothing but lie to me. Likely cheated on me multiple times. Stories just dont add up.

The last 5 weeks of our relationship:  She told me she got fired. Fired from her job. Of course what do I do?  Try to help. Offer compassion, support, advice. Then right before christmas, things just didnt add up. So I jokingly texted back to her... ."Fired,,, yea I'm sure".

She responded: "Haha ok well yea, I did lie about that but I am looking for a new job".

I was like---- What the heck!   So every conversation we've had has been fiction?   Wow, you know, the last few weeks of our relationship every time I called, you were so horribly angry, mean, nasty, I'm talking she was hysterical some times, screaming - I mean screaming bloody murder. Insanity. You should hear these calls. They are nothing short of insane.

So she dumps me Christmas time. Wow, 5 years, gone.  Then 3 weeks later; I attempt to just to talk to try to get closure. I just can't wrap my head around it. Like - why? All the lies?  Of course I was annoying - we were talking every day about "nothing".  You were never fired!  Every conversation I'm sure was torture because of the mental work keeping up the lie.

So I spoke with her yesterday. And alas; she confessed:  She was fired. The lie, about the lie, was the lie.  (Yes I am serious).

I guess my point is-- I too wanted closure just like you. To leave it on a kind, nice note. But honestly; the entire conversation was so insanely hostile. I did nothing but shower her with kindness and apologies for the things I did. Literally, nothing but saying loving nice things. I had to keep asking her to please stop - because for the entire talk, all she did was accuse, point fingers, etc.

So in conclusion:  In a strange way; I feel a lot better today. I know its too soon to tell. But what this talk made me realize was that this person is sick. She's beyond any help I could give her. The pathological lying, which happened so many times; I can't change that. She made so many comments on "will I ever change".  I told her no. I said I am who I am. I believe in compromise, sacrifice, love, giving more than you get; but I am who I am, you love me or you don't.

That said; the lie, being the lie, being the lie... .The insanity behind that. Zero remorse. I fell out of love right there. Gone with the wind. I mean really. Its the strangest thing. I went into the call hoping for an apology and reconciliation, and I walked away with a feeling of just total indifference and honestly; pity for her.

I ended the call saying I would always care for her, if she ever was in an emergency, or needed help, she could reach out- but I can't be her friend. I don't want to be. That final talk, made me realize she is not my kind of people. My friends, never would do such things; it's just not my crowd.

So I was angry, feeling hurt, wanted her to say sorry. I got NONE of that. But in the end, I actually didnt even want the apology any more. I mean, someone that crazy saying they are sorry, it means nothing.

So it did help; but in a way I would have never expected. Realizing she is beyond hope. Gone. A lost soul. That's whats really turned my mindset around and made me realize- this is not my loss.

In closing she complained, she is now sleeping 22 hrs a day; has not found a job yet, has 3-4 months left of money to cover rent, no real job leads.  I was actually the one who got her the job she had. I introduced her to the CEO, a friend of mine. He hired her on the spot.

In the end she asked after saying "Never contact me again, do you understand"? I said I wouldnt (And I wont) - She said;;; but who will I talk to?  I was just like... .uh goodnight. I've blocked her from my phone, email, everything. I really don't have any desire to ever see, talk or speak to her again.

Anger is not what I'm left with, at least not directed at her. More just - wow, I was blinded by love. Ok, lets move on.

[GreenEyedMonster]

You say you have achieved closure but have you?  The above might suggest you haven't?  You, like myself, seem to be still attached to the ex.  Perhaps not in the same way but attached none-the-less.  If we are still attached then have we achieved the closure we need?

I'm close to achieving closure.  I believe at this point that if my ex disappeared and I never saw or heard anything about him again, it wouldn't be particularly challenging for me to process that.  I have reached a point where my expectations of the situation are EXTREMELY low, though not quite nonexistent yet.  I still feel abandoned when he doesn't e-stalk me and I still relish the thought of him missing me, and that's all.

Part of what I meant by the above statement is that an apology has a funny way of raising your expectations of a situation.  I have mentally adjusted to not getting my needs met by this person.  If he comes back and makes a big show of meeting my needs (through apology), then it would set me back in my recovery and undo my sense of closure.

[thisworld]

I think what we seek with all our expectations about accountability, responsibility etc is actually recognition. A sort of validation (of which I believe I was deprived by my mother for instance). We can hold someone accountable and act on it - say, have nothing to do with them. We can hold them responsible and again take action - say, have nothing to do with them. Yet, we want the unfairness to be recognized. Why? Why isn't it enough for us that we recognize it and that's that. I think, sometimes I have an inner fantasy that he will have an A Ha moment this time. That translates as lack of acceptance. I don't know about his disorder, maybe he will be absolutely recovered next year. I, for myself, have to accept that this has not happened with me.

Also, even when we seemingly seek recognition, we tend to be helping them, rescuing them I think - wanting to tell them one more time what they did, etc. Why can't they arrive in this awareness themselves?  I hold myself accountable for my actions even though others don't. I don't know to what extent my ex has this (looking at his treatment of me, none. However, there must be some more turth to him). If this is an effect of the disorder, then no need to expect these. If it's not the disorder, even worse, really no need to expect these. 

[Learning Fast]

Part of what I meant by the above statement is that an apology has a funny way of raising your expectations of a situation.  I have mentally adjusted to not getting my needs met by this person.  If he comes back and makes a big show of meeting my needs (through apology), then it would set me back in my recovery and undo my sense of closure.



I ended the call saying I would always care for her, if she ever was in an emergency, or needed help, she could reach out- but I can't be her friend. I don't want to be. That final talk, made me realize she is not my kind of people. My friends, never would do such things; it's just not my crowd.



Very true, GEM and GB, on many levels.

I sent a very high-road, constructive and "best wishes" goodbye text to my ex on 12/31 after she didn't acknowledge my very simple "Merry Christmas/Happy New Year" text.  I have never had anyone do this in my life (certainly not in my adult life).  Yet she was able to text me several days later about how she was out in LA for New Year's at the same location (ostensibly with my replacement) where we had one of our most memorable and romantic weekends together.  In my judgment that was enough for me and the catalyst for my last text (plus I'm kind of a year-end guy so all of the planets happened to align).


As GB mentioned, I can't be friends (or, heck, even an acquaintance for that matter) with someone like her.  And as GEM mentioned, having her come back into my life would simply prolong or reverse my recovery as she wouldn't be able to meet my needs now any better that she could in the past.  I'm not waiting for a closure that she's not capable of delivering anyway.

LF

[taniasofia]

"C. Stein. I totally agree with you. I strongly feel sick or not these individuals should be held accountable for their actions. I myself feel like such an A** for even falling again for my ex.  28 years later no less. Believing all her lies and BS! I of course had no idea about BPD either. Man I wish the heck I did. I would have ran the other way and never looked back.  I believe that these individuals know exactly what they are doing. It's all about them and to hell with everyone else and how we feel. My ex after emails of constant "Projection" did apologize to me . But in the same sense just acted like she gave our relationship a shot and in her eyes was not for her. Out of the clear blue sky of course. You know when the day before they are telling you that you are the love of their life crap. Then rhe next day oh I tried but it's not going to work bye bye. So yes I strongly feel that they should be held accountable for the chaos and mind games they play with healthy people."

Wow! If it helps, know that when i read your posts', it felt as if I was reading my own! :/  I went through the same exact thing. I also got the i love you and you are the love of my life, and five minutes later I got the we tried and you have to understand that it didnt work out!and then we are left with the "what the F$%^ just happened here". I was told she wanted to move out, right after I said okay lets move out, BAMM that was no longer the case!

[C.Stein]

I believe that these individuals know exactly what they are doing.

I don't feel my ex knew what she was doing all the time.  There were definitely times when I think she was just behaving based on her emotions of the moment and doing things she had done all her life ... .i.e. learned behavior.  I don't think it was premeditated, but it was none-the-less still manipulative and extremely damaging.   This is the most BPD like behavior.  It is also the type of behavior that is the most difficult to get under control.

Then there were times where behavior was drawn out over a long period of time.  This is what I have a hard time believing is not done with at least some cognitive awareness.   Impulsive behavior is short term, actions are based on emotions of the moment.  Long term deception, having an emotional affair for months ... .these are not driven by emotionally loaded impulsive behavior.  There certainly may be some unstable emotions driving the behavior but I have a very hard time believing she was not fully aware of what she was doing and that it was wrong. 

Those of us who have been unfortunate enough to be exposed to our exes stories that just don't add up, gas lighting, etc... .know exactly what I am talking about.  A person does these things when they are trying to cover up the truth.  If there were no pre-existing knowledge of wrong doing on their behalf there would be no need to act like this.  This is most obvious when you accidentally catch them in a lie or cover up, not one where you know they did something wrong and you are pressing for the truth.