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Author Topic: "Don't Worry, My Friends Will Forgive You."  (Read 570 times)
HurtinNW
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« on: February 05, 2016, 12:15:25 AM »

So my BPD/NPD boyfriend seems to have a knack for bringing up whatever I am mulling over. Lately it has been his use of sycophants to paint me black. I had decided on some boundaries about this, mainly I am not listening to it.

Tonight we were talking on the phone. He brought up a mutual friend. This is a woman who is more a friend of mine than his, someone I respect, but she is also friends with him.

He made a point to mention that during a recent break up (he never says he did the breaking up) that he met with her and talked about me. If you have read my other posts you know this is done manipulatively and I don't like it.

I felt hurt and taken aback, since this is a friend I really like. Truthfully I was appalled. And embarrassed. I remembered my boundaries, but probably too shakily replied, "lets talk about something else."

He began this thing he does which seems very sweet and warm, like he wants to elicit my feelings... .he keeps probing for my feelings, saying he really wants to hear me and listen to me. I think he really intends to listen, but quickly becomes dysregulated, and then be begins lecturing me.

He was in his "I'm reasonable you are an idiot" voice rather than the raging hateful voice, and I worry I let him carry on if he shows any fraction of reasonableness, even when he is painting me black. This is my mistake, I think, at leasrt he isn't screaming, he sounds so darn reasonable. But I also know the "reasonable" voice is fake and a shield.

I feel stupid he sucked me into telling my feelings. I did stay calm and neutral, and told him calmly how I was sad and hurt he did this. And then... .

He said. ":)on't worry, my friends will forgive you."

I was so astonished I was curious. I asked him to explain more. He went on to say "his" friends would embrace me no matter what I had done to him.

I just don't know what to do with this. If someone calls me out for not radically accepting life with a BPD/NPD that would be fair.

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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2016, 12:56:39 AM »

I just don't know what to do with this. If someone calls me out for not radically accepting life with a BPD/NPD that would be fair.

Well... .this is who he is [ducks]

Seriously though, unhealthy triangulation by proxy is hurtful. I'd be hurt too (I remember things akin to this, the voice where I was implied to be incompetent or an idiot).

I think you did right by tossing the ball back into his court. His explanation, however, was non-sensical, and reflective of his disordered world-view. It's hard not to take this personally.

Does it bother you at all what his friends might think?
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2016, 05:22:09 AM »

Hi HurtinNW,

For me sometimes being in a relationship with a person with BPD is like playing chess with Bobby Fischer.   Except the rules of the game are to get all the pieces over to my side of the board.   My partner is happiest when her side of the board is empty of pieces,   'see nothing over here, nothing of mine'  and she has had a good cry.   I am playing chess by the regular rules.  She is playing by her rules, and she is very good at it because she has done it all her life.   

I hear, 'you never tell me how you feel'.   Well of course not.   because it quickly becomes fodder for a manipulative, guilt dumping, non productive contest of wills, tit for tat type conversation.   it quickly becomes all about her.   my feelings quickly become invalidated.   'oh you feel discouraged.   Well I do too and I am so angry and hurt that I have had to take time off from work because I can't sleep.  and now let me tell you more about how I feel... .'

and then there has to be an explanation, sometimes subtle, sometimes not, of how she had handled herself completely and totally perfectly.   this has more to do with her world view than reality.   she has to believe that she is perfect because the alternative is the shuddering abyss of being damaged.   and that is too difficult to be faced.   Now if the implication of her being perfect is that I am to blame well... .

For me these aren't really conversations, they are either blame shifting wrestling matches, or a contest of wills of I want what I want why won't you give it to me.   

I'm never sure what to do about them.   In Stop Caretaking Margalis Fjelstad recommends not having these relationship type conversations because they are almost always non productive and almost always damaging in some way.   Truthfully I have very rarely had any luck with a conversation about the 'status of our relationship'.

Fruzzetti in the High Conflict Couple (who I really like) talks about how to open lines of communication in a highly invalidating environment in chapter 9.   I just recently had to have a conversation about how I felt about something with my partner.   as you may be able to tell from the delicate hint of sarcasm wafting through this post I got verbally pummeled  Smiling (click to insert in post)   again.   Intellectually I can understand that her need to protect her core wound is so intense that conversations can and do get painfully weird at times.   I do understand it's not personal.  Like Turkish said this is how pwBPD process emotions and see the world.  That's how they work.   

Okay.  And yet the flip side of the coin is I have these,  I'm not sure what to call them, left over emotions that didn't get expressed.   They are part of the equation of being in this type of relationship where I am often the emotional ballast.   

to be honest I don't know what to do with this either.   but I appreciate you letting me share in your thread.   thanks.

'ducks

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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2016, 06:44:12 AM »

Ducks, I have had so many of these circular conversations that I don't want to have them at all. They are frustrating, non- productive, and to me, ineffective.

When a conversation drifts into feelings, it seems to already be going down the slippery slope. If I bring up feelings, I can see the deer in the headlights look in my H's eyes. I used to push for these "heart to heart" talks, but now, I even have an aversion to them.

For a while, I think I read every relationship book in the library just trying to get ideas. Some of the best ones were from the book "How to save your marriage without talking about it". It isn't just about BPD,  but it was very helpful to show me that sometimes, talking doesn't work very well and what else to do. There were many ideas for relationships where talking doesn't work well.

This was a hard one for me, because talking is one of my love languages. Accepting that it didn't work was part of my acceptance of the relationship. I had to learn another way.

It is a strange paradox. On one hand, I think my H is far more comfortable and things are more stable with me talking less and not getting into talking about feelings. On the other hand, he knows I am a talker and it disturbs him that I have become quieter, and that I talk to others. But I do not think either of us can have these talks without it going poorly. If there is something I feel I need to talk about, I do it during MC, where the T can help keep the conversation on track.

I think the dynamics of being perfect and blameless are in play, like with your partner. But this isn't something we can change.

Hurtin, I think , when your boyfriend starts his warm, sweet, elicit your feelings talk, he doesn't do it with intent to harm you. I think it is an action that works for him to get his stuff out. Like Ducks said - clean up his side of the relationship chess board by moving the pieces on to your side. I think his venting to others and this " they are on my side" is similar. My mother does this by the way, gets people to validate her and on her side.

I think, once we see that the "lets talk about feelings talk" is a transition to some kind of relief by projection, and that people tend to do what works for them, we can see it before it starts and not engage in it. This is a pattern that we are in and is comfortable for us. If talking about feelings is enticing to us, then we can easily take up our role in it, but seeing it as something that doesn't work can prompt us to not get involved in these conversations and to seek other solutions.




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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2016, 06:51:16 AM »

Now you have heard it, add it to the list of nonsense that you are not getting into. Its just another type of hook on the same old line.
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2016, 08:17:23 AM »

Now you have heard it, add it to the list of nonsense that you are not getting into. 

This is the goal and the outcome that you can control.  100%. 

From the way you have described him and your r/s, this "triangulation by proxy" is one of his favorite toxic/dysfunctional tools.

You are not going to defeat or counter that tool.  Don't even try.  If you get to that stage, you are done.  I promise you.

There is good news here.  I think there is a way you can force him to keep that tool in the toolbox, and then you never have to deal with it.

Suggested line to start with:  "I'm not interested in gossip."  or "I'm not able to have a third party conversation." or "I'm more interested in those burgers you promised to grill me"

My theory is that you need to back up your boundary enforcement.  Once he has the tool out, he has sucked you in.  This will happen and you just need to exit the conversation.

The best thing is to be polite but assertive in saying you aren't going to have that conversation and quickly try to turn it to something positive (like those juicy burgers).

I believe Babyducks has had some success in establishing a boundary like this, but I think it is about a specific family member or person.   I think if you can build on her success and methods but just apply it to a "type" of conversation.

Last:  Luckily, this type of convo is not part of my r/s.  It would drive me bonkers.  I can see why you want to change it.

FF
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2016, 11:23:49 AM »

Hurtin, my ex-husband used to do this triangulation evaluation of me with other people. Not only would he criticize me, but then he'd add in others' criticism of all my flaws. It was incredibly hurtful and embarrassing and it really undermined my self-esteem. He was an abuser and also BPD/NPD, so it seemed like part of his toolkit to keep the power balance shifted in his favor. My sympathies go out to you for having to deal with this.  

What has been useful for me since then was doing therapy and getting stronger within myself. Now I think of the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 Rule. One third of people will like me no matter what. One third will be neutral. And one third will dislike me. So I'm polite to all, or at least civil, and I focus on those who like me and forget about the rest. And the result is that I have a much thicker skin. If someone is critical, I consider it a gift and I'll look at what they say and if it fits, then good! I've got some good feedback which will help me become a better person. If it doesn't fit, then that's their opinion and they're welcome to have it. If they get unpleasant to me, then f* them.

On your other point, the invitation to express my feelings, I had an interesting exchange with my husband recently. I am very easygoing and I seldom have "moods." I have gotten very irritated by some of my husband's behaviors: alcohol abuse, irresponsibility about daily living chores, and what I perceive as a sense of entitlement. That said, I do my best at taking care of my responsibilities and keeping an upbeat and pleasant mood.

But on that occasion, I had gotten to a "fed up" place and I felt a sense of anxiety and dread in addition to irritation. I knew if I just could sit quietly with my thoughts, I'd be able to examine them and work things out quickly and get back to an even keel.

At that moment, I was in the car with my husband driving. He asked me what was wrong and I, attempting to have an honest conversation, said "I feel a bit anxious."

Now anxiety is something my husband is well acquainted with and often when we've talked about his feelings, he will get to a point where he doesn't want to discuss anything further. And I comply with his wishes.

But would he use the same understanding with me? Not a chance. He started probing and getting worked up after I said that I didn't want to talk about it, I wanted to just sit with it and I'd talk with him later. I think it triggered his anxiety and a fear that I was planning to leave him or some other dire scenario, rather than just a passing mood. Suddenly it became all about him and he was angry that I didn't want to explore my emotional landscape with him at that moment.

I held my ground and I was glad I did because I was becoming even more irritated that he was intruding upon my private thoughts as if he was entitled to know exactly what was on my mind. (So typical of BPDs that there is no sense of fair play.)

So we continued on to the restaurant and he had to shift gears to be the polite gregarious person he wants to present at to the host and servers that we frequently encounter there.

If we ever circled back to that conversation, and I don't think we did, I realized that my emotions can trigger his fears. His interest in mine is self-serving rather than curiosity about what exactly I'm feeling, unless I'm feeling really good about him.  
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2016, 06:22:46 PM »

I REALLY appreciate all the feedback. I am getting a lot more clarity thanks to this.

Yes, it is triangulation by proxy, or a triangulation evaluation. And you guys are right: he does this to keep the power balance on his side of the board. He simply cannot own anything negative about himself, and so he has to constantly shift responsibility to me. This is so incredibly important to him he will enlist friends, family, his facebook community... .anyone and everyone to exonerate himself from whatever shame he is feeling. He doesn't have to have been accused of anything, either. It is like he proactively seeks out his defense. Hence he has already convicted me of something, and truly believes that when he waves the magic wand his friends will forgive me.

It does matter to me what some of his friends think. Not all... .his core sycophants I really don't care about. But like friend he said he had talked to yesterday, yes, I do care. Honestly she is more of my friend than his friend. I don't think it is okay for him to try and get my friends on his "side" against me. it's toxic, it's embarrassing and it is hurtful. But I don't see any boundary I can maintain besides refusing to listen or know about it.

One of my challenges is the very nature of his communications set up these traps. There is a certain pattern to our conversations that is becoming much clearer to me. I've been paying more attention instead of getting pulled in, and I would estimate he talks 90% or more of the of the time. 

Basically, most of our communications involve him reacting to me in one way or another. He might elicit my opinion on Bernie Sanders so he can talk at length about politics, and heaven forbid I disagree. One time he ended up raging at me because of my thoughts on Woody Allen. I am learning to step out of the rages (and to his credit he is working the rages too) but the basic pattern of his relating to me remains the same: it is like I am there to provide a person he can react against, lecture, pontificate against, and establish his intellectual superiority and moral righteousness. Even the calmest conversation involves him creating elaborate intellectual arguments for his "case." And when he gets going, he circles ever wider to find evidence to support his case reaching into the past, dredging up all my alleged flaws, and saying what his friends supposedly say.

In a weird way I don't feel I even exist as a person in our conversations. It really isn't a communication. It is more like... .I don't know what it is. I get his need to cover for his core wound, but I am not sure that accounts for the general defensiveness. Maybe that doesn't matter?

I have been getting quieter over time, and I do share less. I am cautious even when he asks my feelings now, which he does a lot. It feels like it is projection trap.

Then, like today, I do feel that residue. No, he didn't rage. He actually kept himself relatively regulated. I didn't get upset or unregulated either. But it still feels wounding. I am sure that conversation went down in his memory log of one more reason I am difficult.

I am also struggling with how to build a boundary to protect my self-esteem considering his basic pattern of communicating. It is one thing to say "I don't want to listen to gossip," it is another thing to find a way to stop the communication pattern of being elicited and then used as a verbal punching bag.



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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2016, 07:13:32 PM »

  then used as a verbal punching bag.

Keep paying attention to the conversations.  Before you get punched you will start to notice that there are little jabs or probes. 

Think about boxing analogy.

Once you see him jabbing at you, that is when you will need to turn the conversation or enact a boundary. 

Many times directly calling him on it may work, (but be prepared to exit the convo).  Perhaps a "help me understand where this conversation is going?"

Good job on observing, keep after it.

FF
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2016, 12:46:17 AM »

Hi Hurt in NW, I am new to this thread, and new to your story.

That sounds highly manipulative to me.

Do you think you could create some emotional space for yourself in the relationship?

When I was really struggling in my relationship people kept telling me to take a step back. I finally did and things are much better now.
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2016, 07:48:54 AM »

I am also struggling with how to build a boundary to protect my self-esteem considering his basic pattern of communicating.

Hi HurtinNW,

This is an interesting thought.   I'm wondering if you can say more about it?

I can't tell you the number of times I have gone back to the "what does it take to be in relationship with a borderline" link where it talks about:

Excerpt
Strength: It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.  If you chose this path, you've got to be very strong and very balanced

.

I know for me I am very susceptible to the 'it's all your fault' argument.   It's a huge trigger for me.   Boy, I hate to be blamed for things.     I've been working on developing a map of what do I when she blames.    It's early days yet so I've not gotten all the details fleshed out.  The map is not so much about boundaries as it is about how do I regulate my own emotional reaction.    It's pretty detailed.   Get up.   Make a cup of tea.   Tea making is soothing for me.   Do some deep breathing.   Release tension.   When I get tense I tend to gulp air.   Either go to the patio or move to the porch.   Pay attention to where my eyes are focused.  Try to get out of the flight or fight response that has been triggered.    Look at something pleasurable.    My actions aren't about her, they are about trying to make me less reactive to the trigger.

I'm wondering if in addition to boundary placement self esteem building exercises might help?

'ducks

(p.s.   NotWendy - great book.  I'm half way through it)

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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2016, 08:15:35 AM »

I'm glad you like the book ':)ucks,

Boundaries help with being involved into these kinds of conversations. As you said, HurtinNW, if our own self esteem is not strong, these talks can get to us. My H has taken my self esteem down to the floor with them, but this doesn't happen anymore.

Self esteem is something we build based on us, not anything external. It is great to accomplish things, but for me, mt self esteem grew from becoming more aware of who I am, my feelings, my values, and to honor them. It grew from not trying so hard to please my H or my parents, but to honor my core values. My actions were the same in either case, but the motive was different, so that if my parents or H were not pleased at the moment ( as this was changeable) I was still pleased.

I used to feel I was compromising my values to please him. Not the big ones- but the little things- doing what he wanted, not what I wanted, WOE. I became more interested in the values that were important to me. Being honest with myself and acting on them for me, not about what others think.

Now, these talks tend to roll off my back like water on a duck. I can tune them out. This happened over time, learning to deal with my feelings, especially if triggered, not being reactive. It may sound rude, but if someone is talking to me like that, I even tune out, or change the subject " look a squirrel" or try to disengage. I just don't react. I think part of the drama is to get into them emotionally, but not getting emotional helps.

As to the friends he may alienate. That really hurts, and I have cried a lot over who my mother has alienated from me. Some are family - on her side- family who I really thought loved me and cared about me. However, I realized that over time, they didn't know me. What they knew were years of her stories about me. It was their choice to believe her, or not and there was nothing I could do about it. However, the people who do want to know me and care about me have remained my family/friends. I chose not to get into the "her side, my side" thing and let them go and spend time with people who do care about me for me. It is unfortunate that her behavior has led to this, but there really is nothing I can do about her choices or theirs.

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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2016, 03:50:30 PM »

This is a profoundly helpful conversation for me. Thank you, everyone.

Self esteem is something we build based on us, not anything external. It is great to accomplish things, but for me, mt self esteem grew from becoming more aware of who I am, my feelings, my values, and to honor them. It grew from not trying so hard to please my H or my parents, but to honor my core values. My actions were the same in either case, but the motive was different, so that if my parents or H were not pleased at the moment ( as this was changeable) I was still pleased.

I used to feel I was compromising my values to please him. Not the big ones- but the little things- doing what he wanted, not what I wanted, WOE. I became more interested in the values that were important to me. Being honest with myself and acting on them for me, not about what others think.

Now, these talks tend to roll off my back like water on a duck. I can tune them out. This happened over time, learning to deal with my feelings, especially if triggered, not being reactive. It may sound rude, but if someone is talking to me like that, I even tune out, or change the subject " look a squirrel" or try to disengage. I just don't react. I think part of the drama is to get into them emotionally, but not getting emotional helps.

As to the friends he may alienate. That really hurts, and I have cried a lot over who my mother has alienated from me. Some are family - on her side- family who I really thought loved me and cared about me. However, I realized that over time, they didn't know me. What they knew were years of her stories about me. It was their choice to believe her, or not and there was nothing I could do about it. However, the people who do want to know me and care about me have remained my family/friends. I chose not to get into the "her side, my side" thing and let them go and spend time with people who do care about me for me. It is unfortunate that her behavior has led to this, but there really is nothing I can do about her choices or theirs.

Yes. As I've mentioned, it is a sensitive area for me, because my BPD mother did the same. She was so intent on making me the black sheep, and so malicious about it that my siblings no longer speak to me. I lost a lot of people in my life because of her triangulation, and it has taken a lot to recover. I realize this is partially why this particular tool of my boyfriend stings so much.

I am working on my self esteem. It is difficult. I have made the mistake of thinking in the past my accomplishments would make me feel better inside. Doesn't work that way! But I do feel pride and goodness in myself more and more. I am realizing I have a lot of good stuff inside me... .the real challenge for me is to feel innately loveable. But I am working on it. I am identifying my core values, and feeling good about who I am in them. For example I feel really good about my values regarding my kids. I feel I am a good mother. That means a lot to me.

I am also struggling with how to build a boundary to protect my self-esteem considering his basic pattern of communicating.

Hi HurtinNW,

This is an interesting thought.   I'm wondering if you can say more about it?

I can't tell you the number of times I have gone back to the "what does it take to be in relationship with a borderline" link where it talks about:

Excerpt
Strength: It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.  If you chose this path, you've got to be very strong and very balanced

.

I know for me I am very susceptible to the 'it's all your fault' argument.   It's a huge trigger for me.   Boy, I hate to be blamed for things.     I've been working on developing a map of what do I when she blames.    It's early days yet so I've not gotten all the details fleshed out.  The map is not so much about boundaries as it is about how do I regulate my own emotional reaction.    It's pretty detailed.   Get up.   Make a cup of tea.   Tea making is soothing for me.   Do some deep breathing.   Release tension.   When I get tense I tend to gulp air.   Either go to the patio or move to the porch.   Pay attention to where my eyes are focused.  Try to get out of the flight or fight response that has been triggered.    Look at something pleasurable.    My actions aren't about her, they are about trying to make me less reactive to the trigger.

I'm wondering if in addition to boundary placement self esteem building exercises might help?

Ducks, the strength piece is something I am still not sure about. I KNOW I am capable of incredible strength. I adopted three kids from foster care, I do impossibly stressful work helping others. But I do not know if I have the right strength for this. I am posting on this board mostly because I believe in trying. I am trying. But that is a real question for me. Boyfriend has ways of dismantling me that go right to my core. They challenge my strength in ways even very difficult special needs children did not. That my work does not. That my last relationship of 15 years did not.

My emotional kryptonite involves being told I am not loveable, that I am crazy or a liar. I am very susceptible to that and have a hard time staying regulated and strong in myself. Someone else would laugh it off, or think, how nutty! Not me. His efforts to pain me black trigger something in me where I start thinking maybe he is right. Maybe there is something wrong with me. I like your idea of having a plan in place when boyfriend hauls out the kryptonite. I will try that.

In the meantime, what are some ideas for self esteem building exercises? I think that is a great idea!
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2016, 04:53:34 PM »

Hurtin,

Have you considered some T regarding the issues with your mother? My T told me that working on them would be helpful to me. The day I realized she wasn't triggering me, was the day I realized my H wasn't either. That didn't involve her but working on co-dependency with a sponsor.

My mother told me I was unlovable too. Her preferred punishment was the ST. I could just go through the roof over that, and so it isn't a surprise that the ST from my H worked to do that too. It took a lot of distressed calls to my sponsor to get me through that. Now, it doesn't do anything to me! I sometimes will feel a bit of stress when it seems he is doing it, but I can completely ignore it.  some of the time I am not sure when he does it now, or not. He claims to be busy and then, I leave him alone and do something else. I can easily entertain myself or be busy with other things.

If this sounds like a miracle to you, believe me, I thought it was too. But it took a lot of hard work. I also had to realize the possibility that my H would not like the changes, but I had to leave that to chance. I was ready to change and at least work on my side of things.

Being in ACOA groups helped ( works for dysfunction even without alcohol). One of the things they work on is being less reactive. I felt so reactive to people's moods and feelings. Makes sense if we grow up with BPD moms, but outside of my FOO, I didn't want to do that. Being less reactive made me less triggering to my H and to my mom, and that calmed the relationships a bit.
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waitingwife
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2016, 08:19:43 AM »

NW,

I feel like T might help with my regulation too. I am by nature a very regulated and balanced person but with my uBPDH I feel like my emotional regulation is atntimes in question... .I don't feel loved(even thought I know that he has an emotiinal handicap) and then I see myself not being able to feel the love for him coz he tries tondestroy my self esteem so much. In thenlast 2 years, I have made 2 new friends and started exercising regularly and that has really helped me build some of my lost self-esteem but I have a long way to go... .Do you suggest any more reading? I also feel like my dad might have had a few of the bod traits & that he'd hate my mom's friends coz she was such a social person full of love & cheer. He would try to alienate her from her girlfriends but she stood her ground and had a life outside him. He never abused in any other way but he was extremely loving towards his family(us kids) and my mom always told us that your dad really loves his only immidiate family. So he'd give my mom a lot of ST and so I don't know if I get so triggered when my H gives me ST coz H's way of being punitive is ST & when asked saying mean things like I am very controlling, etc. when he is regulated, I become the best wife who carries about her tasks beautifully.The more and more I read on here, it feels therapeutic and like I am finding some answers to my life!
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Notwendy
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2016, 10:14:47 AM »

There is a connection between why someone's "actions" that we are distressed about would be the same as our parents' punishment of choice. It is because our reactions to them reinforce it. I would not say for certain if the ST is a deliberate act of punishment, but if it works to make us do something they like, then it becomes something we reinforce.

My mother's ST felt terrible. She would lock herself in her room. I recall being a child sitting outside her locked door sobbing and crying for her while she stayed in there. The first time my H gave me the ST, I was unglued. My response to that was to up my attention to him, begging him to talk to me, initiating sex- anything to stop the distress it triggered. No wonder he did it even more. I was rewarding it.

Then later, in co-dependency groups, with a sponsor, my H went into ST for a weekend trip. Sitting in the car for hours. It was horrible. But all through the weekend, I would call my sponsor for support. Once I got through it , I could see that, well what made it so distressing was my own distress at it. I also knew that I could get through it. I don't know if that was the last time I got the ST or not, but I do know that my response is different. I don't reinforce it anymore because I can ignore it.

This change, that was entirely something I could do, made all the difference. My H didn't change, but my response to the ST did. This stopped reinforcing it.

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waitingwife
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2016, 10:33:36 AM »

NW,

What is a spinsor and a co-dependency groupd? Is it something to donwith therapy or join here? It looks like I might benefit from it some to change my reaction and rewire my response to ST more than I am able to do by myself. It really helps me feel heard in this group coz it's so hard to talk and explain these things to anybody who is not really going through such emotiins.
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2016, 10:48:09 AM »

Do you have access to Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) groups?

This was a big barrier to me joining one of these groups. I am not dealing with a drinking problem in my immediate family. I thought it was just for alcoholics and their family members.

The history of Codependency groups is based on the original AA model. There are 12 steps of AA. Alcoholics were paired with sponsors who had recovered themselves from alcoholism and helped them recover too.

This started a while back- I think in the 50's. At the time, the men were alcoholics. What they noticed was that something was keeping the men from getting better. It was their wives! The wives were so kind and understanding, and ENABLING that they were interfering with their husband's recovery.

So they started a codependency group for the enabling wives, and that was the beginning of addressing co-dependency in relationships of all kinds through a 12 step model for people of all genders and any relationship, because we are not in the 1950's.

When I was ready to make changes, I was willing to try anything. I didn't really get this at first, but then I realized that I had learned enabling and co-dependent behaviors growing up, and that nons and disordered people tend to pair up like alcoholics and enabling spouses do. I also understood that I learned this in my own family growing up and that this was something I had to work on, regardless of any relationship. So, I went and got a sponsor. I am very grateful for her help.

Some people don't like 12 step groups, but I found these helpful-- Codependency Anonymous and ACOA ( Adult children of alcoholics - or dysfunction). Searching the internet for any groups near you would be the way to find one.
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HurtinNW
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2016, 04:39:03 PM »

Hurtin,

Have you considered some T regarding the issues with your mother? My T told me that working on them would be helpful to me. The day I realized she wasn't triggering me, was the day I realized my H wasn't either. That didn't involve her but working on co-dependency with a sponsor.

My mother told me I was unlovable too. Her preferred punishment was the ST. I could just go through the roof over that, and so it isn't a surprise that the ST from my H worked to do that too. It took a lot of distressed calls to my sponsor to get me through that. Now, it doesn't do anything to me! I sometimes will feel a bit of stress when it seems he is doing it, but I can completely ignore it.  some of the time I am not sure when he does it now, or not. He claims to be busy and then, I leave him alone and do something else. I can easily entertain myself or be busy with other things.

If this sounds like a miracle to you, believe me, I thought it was too. But it took a lot of hard work. I also had to realize the possibility that my H would not like the changes, but I had to leave that to chance. I was ready to change and at least work on my side of things.

Being in ACOA groups helped ( works for dysfunction even without alcohol). One of the things they work on is being less reactive. I felt so reactive to people's moods and feelings. Makes sense if we grow up with BPD moms, but outside of my FOO, I didn't want to do that. Being less reactive made me less triggering to my H and to my mom, and that calmed the relationships a bit.

Thank you notwendy! Yes, I have had a great therapist for several years. I haven't been seeing her lately mostly due to cost. I have a dx of PTSD. She has really helped me with the larger trauma issues I experienced with my incredibly bizarre, toxic, abusive family.

I had never thought before that I have reinforced my boyfriend's treatment of me by being so reactive. That really hits home and I think you are right.

My severely BPD mom had certain favorite punishments. The biggest was triangulation by painting black. She kept herself at the center of a spider web with people rushing to rescue her, and the way she did this was acting the victim. I have realized through this discussion that my mom treated her children like commodities. I know she loved us, in her own way. But our actions were tools used to reward or punish, always in ways that manipulated others into giving her what she wanted. She always kept one child on her side. Believe it or not, she once told me she had a lot of children because that way if some of them us died or didn't like her, there would be some leftover.   

My mother's other big tool was disowning, which I think of as the silent treatment gone nuclear. I was disowned several times for years at a time. One time I made the mistake of telling her not to buy my son a violent video game. That resulted in an angry letter saying I was worse than a rapist, and she couldn't have a relationship with someone like me. She refused to speak to me for years after that. During these cycles she would paint me black to other family members, even neighbors. And then, once she "forgave" me, it was like it hadn't happened. I wasn't allowed to mention it... .unless I wanted to get disowned again.

I never was able to establish healthy boundaries that allowed me to interact with my mother. I chose to cut off all contact after several incidents involving my kids, where I realized I simply could not maintain their emotional safety or my own health with her in my life. I have always felt it was the right choice. She passed away a few years after I made that decision. But perhaps a result of this history is I never got to practice dealing with a BPD in a non codependent way.

Now it is making so much more sense to me why these tools in my boyfriend's kit unglue me so much. How funny I never realized it that way before... .thank you! My boyfriend does the triangulation by proxy and he also disappears to his house when he rages and gives me the silent treatment. This is very evocative of what my mother did, and it dismantles me.

I am seeing now that I need to address my distress. I need to look at changing my reaction to his behaviors, because I am reinforcing them by getting so hurt. I will definitely look up a codependency group.



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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2016, 07:24:06 PM »

Ducks, the strength piece is something I am still not sure about. I KNOW I am capable of incredible strength. I adopted three kids from foster care, I do impossibly stressful work helping others. But I do not know if I have the right strength for this. I am posting on this board mostly because I believe in trying. I am trying. But that is a real question for me. Boyfriend has ways of dismantling me that go right to my core. They challenge my strength in ways even very difficult special needs children did not. That my work does not. That my last relationship of 15 years did not.

My emotional kryptonite involves being told I am not loveable, that I am crazy or a liar. I am very susceptible to that and have a hard time staying regulated and strong in myself. Someone else would laugh it off, or think, how nutty! Not me. His efforts to pain me black trigger something in me where I start thinking maybe he is right. Maybe there is something wrong with me. I like your idea of having a plan in place when boyfriend hauls out the kryptonite. I will try that.

In the meantime, what are some ideas for self esteem building exercises? I think that is a great idea!

Hi HurtinNW,

I think the strength piece is something we can build up.   Most of us arrive here pretty banged up.   What with one thing and another.  I think by coming here and putting the pieces back together, one building block at a time we end up stronger than we arrived.   Almost by default in a way.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

I did two fairly simple exercises to help with the self esteem.   The first was to stop the ANTs, the automatic negative thoughts, or the automatic negative self talk that was always running in my head.   In this link they call it the garbage truck and how the brain can develop patterns of going on bad memory hunts and rotten thought hunts and filling it self up with garbage.

Stop Being Tortured by Your Own Thoughts

Once I slowed down the ANTs, I had to replace them with something more positive.   I got a handful of self affirmations and wrote them on 3x5 index cards.  The first time I went through them I was making faces and horrible noises.  I thought it was silly.   I kept doing it.   It was a simple way of reprogramming my brain to a more positive automatic thought process.   It would better than I ever thought it would.

'ducks

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