I am conflicted and don't know what to do.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi,

I am new here and in need of advice.  My life was ruined by a relationship with a BPD sufferer.  A part of me is very reluctant to share this story, because it really makes me look like a gullible idiot, but I think getting the perspective of an outside observer may be what I need to see things clearly. My story is a long one, and I'm not even sure where to begin.  

I was a teacher at a community college, and my job was something I was very passionate about.  I counted myself among those who were fortunate to have a job that they truly loved and couldn't wait to do everyday.  My teaching career was my life, and I considered the college my home for eight years.  Looking back, I think I will always consider those years to be the happiest of my life.  The only down side was that, for the first seven years of teaching, I was only a part-time instructor, and always struggled financially.  :)uring my final year at the college, the school promoted me to full-time and made me the lead instructor of physics.  This came as a surprise to me, as I had no idea that the school thought so highly of me.  I felt very honored, and it was nice to see that I was getting recognition for something that I devoted so much of myself to.  I felt like my life was perfect.

During my first semester as a full-time instructor, I had a student who would often ask me for additional help understanding the material.  This was nothing out of the ordinary, as I provided individual assistance to any student who needed help.  The student was in her early 30's, and not that much younger than me.  She would often visit my office, where I would help her with homework problems and point out her mistakes and misunderstandings.  As the semester progressed, she and I spent a lot of time together outside of class, either in my office or in the school's tutoring center, and at some point I began to develop strong feelings for her.  I was finding that I couldn't wait to see her everyday, and was devastated on those days when she didn't visit me in my office.  :)espite our growing closeness, our relationship was always a professional student-teacher one.  One day, while in my office, she began hinting that she would like to see me socially.  I was jumping for joy inside, because I had no idea she felt the same way about me.  Yet I retained my composer and politely told her that it would be unethical for me to see her socially while I was her teacher, but that I would be willing to discuss it further once the semester had ended and she was no longer my student.  She gave a knowing smile and nodded, and that was that.  We had an unspoken agreement that we were going to date when the semester had ended.  A couple of weeks later, out of the blue, she tells me that she's married!  Her husband was in the military and had been away from home for several months.  She said he never called her, that she felt he no longer loved her, and that she was ready to move on from him.  She told me that she didn't love him the way she loved me, and I bought all of it. I honestly think that, at the time, those were her real feelings.  But, as I would later discover, her feelings, no matter how strong, are fleeting and in a constant state of flux.  I myself wanted so badly to believe what she was telling me, and when she began talking about leaving her husband to be with me, I foolishly let myself believe it.  

[Nuitari]

Hi,

I am new here and in need of advice.  My life was ruined by a relationship with a BPD sufferer.  A part of me is very reluctant to share this story, because it really makes me look like a gullible idiot, but I think getting the perspective of an outside observer may be what I need to see things clearly. My story is a long one, and I'm not even sure where to begin.  

I was a teacher at a community college, and my job was something I was very passionate about.  I counted myself among those who were fortunate to have a job that they truly loved and couldn't wait to do everyday.  My teaching career was my life, and I considered the college my home for eight years.  Looking back, I think I will always consider those years to be the happiest of my life.  The only down side was that, for the first seven years of teaching, I was only a part-time instructor, and always struggled financially.  :)uring my final year at the college, the school promoted me to full-time and made me the lead instructor of physics.  This came as a surprise to me, as I had no idea that the school thought so highly of me.  I felt very honored, and it was nice to see that I was getting recognition for something that I devoted so much of myself to.  I felt like my life was perfect.

During my first semester as a full-time instructor, I had a student who would often ask me for additional help understanding the material.  This was nothing out of the ordinary, as I provided individual assistance to any student who needed help.  The student was in her early 30's, and not that much younger than me.  She would often visit my office, where I would help her with homework problems and point out her mistakes and misunderstandings.  As the semester progressed, she and I spent a lot of time together outside of class, either in my office or in the school's tutoring center, and at some point I began to develop strong feelings for her.  I was finding that I couldn't wait to see her everyday, and was devastated on those days when she didn't visit me in my office.  :)espite our growing closeness, our relationship was always a professional student-teacher one.  One day, while in my office, she began hinting that she would like to see me socially.  I was jumping for joy inside, because I had no idea she felt the same way about me.  Yet I retained my composer and politely told her that it would be unethical for me to see her socially while I was her teacher, but that I would be willing to discuss it further once the semester had ended and she was no longer my student.  She gave a knowing smile and nodded, and that was that.  We had an unspoken agreement that we were going to date when the semester had ended.  A couple of weeks later, out of the blue, she tells me that she's married!  Her husband was in the military and had been away from home for several months.  She said he never called her, that she felt he no longer loved her, and that she was ready to move on from him.  She told me that she didn't love him the way she loved me, and I bought all of it. I honestly think that, at the time, those were her real feelings.  But, as I would later discover, her feelings, no matter how strong, are fleeting and in a constant state of flux.  I myself wanted so badly to believe what she was telling me, and when she began talking about leaving her husband to be with me, I foolishly let myself believe it.  

[Nuitari]

And so, at the end of the semester, we began dating.  The relationship was intense and passionate from the very beginning.  I was getting so swept away that I was no longer thinking clearly, but looking back, I should have known that there was something about this woman that was off.  I had no idea what BPD was at the time, but after doing some research, I see that all of the warning signs were there.  For one thing, she seems to not know what she wants out of life.  Sense first meeting her, she's changed career paths at least three time.  For some reason that I'll never understand, she has very low self-esteem.  She is one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen, but she was always talking about how unattractive she is.  She is very intelligent (she had a 3.94 GPA, and was in the top 2 percentile of the school!), but was always going on and on about how dumb she was and how she never would have passed physics without me.  She was always calling herself worthless and saying that she would never get anywhere in life.  She needed constant reassurance of her self-worth.  She kept making references to some past trauma that destroyed her trust in others, but would never talk about it with me.  She was always asking me if I loved her.  I honestly did, but seemed unable to convince her of it.  I felt like she was always analyzing every little thing I did or said in an attempt to determine if I loved her.  She would often accuse me of having an obsession with her and not truly loving her. I see now that she was the one with the problem, but at the time, I carried an incredible sense of guilt and anger at myself for always letting her down, for being incapable of conveying my feelings for her.  Soon after we began dating, it didn't take long to see that she had an abnormal preoccupation with sex.  It seemed that she could never get enough.  She also liked women and would always point out attractive women to me when we were in public.  She was always asking me random sex questions that would just come from nowhere.  During an otherwise normal conversation, I would get hit with questions like "have you ever had anal sex?" and "what do you think about when you masterbate?"  Looking back, I don't know why I couldn't see that this woman had problems, and it really makes me wonder what was wrong with me that I didn't walk away.  But at this point, she had become so important to me that I was willing to throw everything else away for her.  I even told myself that I would even give up my job if I had to.

While all of this is going on, her husband is pleading with her not to leave him.  Like me, he was delivered the huge burden of trying to convince her that he loves her.  He and I both are fighting for her, and she is caught in the middle.  She reached a point where she acted like she was going to have a nervous breakdown if I brought the situation up.  I couldn't even talk about it with her anymore.  Its like she completely withdrew into herself to avoid the conflict she created.  She was becoming a different person who didn't care about our relationship at all.  Her husband eventually returns home, and needless to say, he isn't happy.  He claims that I took advantage of his absence to pursue his wife, and he actually accuses me of brainwashing her into believing he doesn't love her!  She finally tells me that she can't leave him.  Part of me felt used, but another part of me was relieved that the whole mess was over.  But it was far from over.  She continued to call me every day, and even come to school and visit my office.  And the more she did this, the more angrier her husband became at me!  As far as he was concerned, I was the source of the problem.  He thinks I seduced and brainwashed his innocent wife.  At any rate, I didn't have it in me to tell her to leave me alone.  I felt like I would be abandoning her.  Even though she was no longer my student, she was still taking classes at the school, and would visit my office almost daily with the excuse that she needed my help with this and that.  She was always very appreciative of my help, and made me feel like I was her knight in shining armor, and I couldn't let her down, even though a part of me never wanted to see her again.  I was still devastated that I had no future with her, and all I wanted was closure, and she wasn't letting me have it.  But I was made to feel like her problems were more important than mine.  So for her sake, I would continue to see her at school and put on a fake smile like nothing was wrong, while inside I was dying.  I would lay away in bed at night thinking of her in bed with her husband.  I loved her, and just the thought of her sleeping with another man was torture.  When I finally brought it up with her one day she assured me that things were still bad between her and her husband, to the point where they don't even sleep in the same room.  Given that he had been home for a month, and given her constant sexual cravings, this came as a big surprise to me.  Yet she assured me that her feelings for me hadn't allowed her to sleep with him.  Not long after that, she casually asked me if I would like to have sex.  It shames me to say it, but I couldn't turn it down. Sex with her was incredible. But I found it very disturbing that she was able to betray her husband so easily and feel no remorse.  I asked her once if she felt bad about it, and she just laughed and said "hell no"!  I tried to tell myself it was because she didn't love him, and that she would never be capable of betraying me if I were in his shoes.  Then one day she slips up and tells me that her husband slept around while he was away, and was waiting three months to take an HIV test before they had sex.  Then it all became clear.  She was only getting sex from me because she couldn't get it from him.  I realized then that feelings had nothing to do with her motivations.  I knew I was being used, and still I couldn't turn down the sex.  There is just something irresistible about her.  It was like she was a drug and I became an addict.  She once initiated sex just as I was about to tell her that I didn't want to see her anymore.  Now, when I look back, I suspect that she was using sex as a way of keeping me close to her.  To make a long story short, I ended up losing my job, thanks in no small part to her husband calling the school.  She knew how much my job meant to me, and she used to tell me that she would leave him if he ever did that, that I would not have to suffer alone.  But like every other promise she ever made to me, it was empty.  Instead, I think she saw his actions as the proof of his love that she'd been looking for. 

Without my job, I could no longer afford the apartment I was living in, and had to move back home with my parents.  I lost everything.  I would have gladly given up my job for her, but in the end I lost them both.  She showed extreme remorse for the loss of my job, and blamed herself.  She even tried to convince the school that it was all her fault.  That is the most puzzling thing about her.  Its like she's two different people.  There is a caring, altruistic side to her, but there is also a selfish side that can't see past her own problems and feelings, and this is the side that always wins out.  It wasn't long before she was calling me again asking me to do this or that for her.  I would meet with her to help her study, and she even had me writing papers for her!  When I would refuse, she would accuse me of not caring about her.  She seemed completely oblivious that my life was ruined and could only see me as someone who was put on this earth to help her.  I was always the first person she called if she needed advice, or if she was upset about anything.  She hated being alone, and would call me almost everyday just to talk.  For some strange reason, it was as if she still needed me in her life.  Even after everything that had happened, I still found myself trying to prove to her that I loved her, and she had a way of making me feel like I was abandoning her if I didn't continue to spend time with her.  I began to feel dead inside.  I wanted my old life back. I was still haunted by everything that happened leading up to the loss of my job, and I had so many lingering questions.  One day, while on the phone with her, I got her to admit that she was already sleeping with her husband prior to my losing my job.  That's when I reached my breaking point.  I hung up on her, and resolved right then and there never to talk to her again.  That was almost six months ago. During the course of my typing this post, she's tried to call me, and while I do miss her greatly, I can't bring myself to talk to her.  If I continue along that course, I feel that I'll end up suicidal.

She had such an emotional hold over me that only now, after months of her absence from my life, do I finally see that I was manipulated and used, to the point where my life was ruined, only to be tossed aside like a piece of garbage.  And now I am angry.  I try to tell myself that only I am to blame, and I deserved what I got.  After all, I did make my own poor decisions.  But the truth is that all three of us (me, her, and the husband) are to blame, and I am angry that only I had to pay.  As far as her and her husband is concerned, this story is all ancient history.  They moved on, while I am still hurting.  Not only do I have to lay awake at night on my parent's cough knowing the woman I fell in love with is having sex with another man, but to a man who went out of his way to destroy my life.  Teaching is my passion, and I still do not know what impact my job loss will have on my future teaching career.  This world is a really messed up place when the two of them can create so much havoc in a persons life, and then ride off into the sunset together and never look back.  How can they be happy together after all of this?  Her husband doesn't have a clue what was going on.  He thinks I was pursuing his innocent wife while she was trying to go to school and get an education.  He has no idea about the affair, and every day I fight the urge to call him and tell him about it.  It's what they both deserve.  I feel that I cannot be at peace until I do it.  I think it is what I need for closure.  Its the only way I can put this mess behind me.  And yet, I cannot bring myself to do it.  In spite of everything, I still love her, and can't do anything to hurt her.  Whatever spell she put me under, it's still there.  Despite everything she's done, I would have her again if I could.  I wouldn't even think twice about it.  And yet I am so overcome with anger that I am always on the verge of calling the husband and telling him everything.  What do I do?  She messed up my brain so much that I don't experience normal emotions anymore.  One day I love her and have to fight the urge to call her, and the very next day I hate her and have to fight the urge to call him.  I do neither because I know these urges are temporary and the pendulum will swing the other way, leaving me regretting my actions.  But I am stuck with this inner conflict that I can't resolve, and it is tearing me apart.  I thought that the passage of time would make things easier, but all time has done is make my two emotional extremes more severe.  I feel like a coin that is standing on its edge.  Sooner or later I'll fall one way or the other.  At this point, I don't really care which way I fall, as long as I fall.  I can't take standing on my edge anymore.

[joeramabeme]

Nuitari   

Sorry to hear about what you are going through.  Relationships with BPD sufferers can be very tumultuous and traumatic.  It is good that you are here sharing your story about it all, I think you have made it to the right place. 

Many of us have had similar experiences with addictive r/s's and can feel deeply conflicted about how we feel.  Have you had other relationships with BPD sufferers? 

[Beacher]

Hi

Glad to see you here, you can share anything and never worry about being judged.

It's so hard being involved with BPD relationships. When they are not driving us crazy or ruining our lives they are the most incredible, loving and attractive human beings that we can't stop thinking about.

My advice to you,would be look for another job ASAP. It sounds like you are very talented and intelligent. You will build a new life and get involved with new colleagues and friends and will keep,your mind off of her. Also please keep sharing and posting. We feel,your,pain and have been through a lot of what you have shared.

xoxo

[Nuitari]

Thank you both for the warm welcome.  I am very glad to have found this place.  I've been reluctant to share this story because I feel that it really paints me in a very poor light.  I've done things I never thought I would do.  It is not like me to become involved with a student, and I am certainly not the type of man would sleep with a married woman.  And now I am left wondering what the hell was wrong with me.  I really have no excuse for my behavior other than to say that I got swept up in something that was bigger than I was.

Yes, this was my first relationship with a BPD sufferer, and I wasn't at all prepared for the craziness that goes along with it.  I wish I had never met her, because I feel like she's ruined me for normal relationships.  Despite all the inherent problems of a BPD relationship, there are also a lot of amazing things about it too.  Like Beacher said, when they are at their best, the relationship is wonderful.  I don't know if it was her BPD, or if we just naturally clicked, but I never felt that level of closeness with anyone, and I'm afraid I'll never find that again.  I think she and I could actually be good friends if I could learn to let go of my feelings for her.  The problems only came from trying to have a romantic relationship, but she was a great friend.  If I can learn to just be her friend, I think we could possibly have a platonic relationship far more meaningful than anything we could have as lovers.  But after everything that's happened, I think that ship has sailed.  I can never just be her friend.  I'll always want more.  And there is also a certain degree of anger and resentment that I feel toward her.  Some days I hate her.  She messed up my emotions so badly that I can't even figure out how I feel.  I would like to just move on and not think about her anymore, but its not that easy.  I can't do that until I have closure, and that's the real problem.  I never got closure.  There is something left undone that I need for closure.  I just can't put my finger on what it is.

[C.Stein]

And there is also a certain degree of anger and resentment that I feel toward her.  Some days I hate her.  She messed up my emotions so badly that I can't even figure out how I feel.  I would like to just move on and not think about her anymore, but its not that easy.  I can't do that until I have closure, and that's the real problem.  I never got closure.  There is something left undone that I need for closure.  I just can't put my finger on what it is.

Yes, I can completely understand where you are right now.  The conflict between love, anger, resentment, hate ... .it leaves you questioning everything.  I also never got any real closure ... .nor will I ever.  This is something I need to accept.  I need to provide my own closure as do many here ... .as do you.   If you wait for her to provide it you may be waiting a life time.

What I find the hardest to accept is the woman I truly believed was deeply in love with me could treat me at times with a fundamental lack of respect, love or caring.  The fact of the matter is she didn't love ME, she was never "in love" with ME!  I don't think she has ever been "in love" although she believed that she had finally found that type of "love" with me.  She simply doesn't understand what love is.  She does not love herself and by extension is incapable of truly loving others.

What she did fall in love with was the dream I shared with her and the needs I fulfilled for her.  This is not love at all which explains why she could do the things she has done.  Sadly the cycle will continue because she is simply incapable of facing her own demons. 

[Nuitari]

Yes, I can completely understand where you are right now.  The conflict between love, anger, resentment, hate ... .it leaves you questioning everything.  I also never got any real closure ... .nor will I ever.  This is something I need to accept.  I need to provide my own closure as do many here ... .as do you.   If you wait for her to provide it you may be waiting a life time.

What I find the hardest to accept is the woman I truly believed was deeply in love with me could treat me at times with a fundamental lack of respect, love or caring.  The fact of the matter is she didn't love ME, she was never "in love" with ME!  I don't think she has ever been "in love" although she believed that she had finally found that type of "love" with me.  She simply doesn't understand what love is.  She does not love herself and by extension is incapable of truly loving others.

That pretty much sums up my experience as well. She had a desperate need to be loved by others, but was completely incapable of returning that emotion.

I keep thinking about what I need to do for closure, and I always come back to the same conclusion.  What I really want and need to do is talk to the husband and come clean about everything.  I really want to understand his perspective in all of this.  Once he came back into the picture, I honestly tried to distance myself from her.  She would continue to call me and visit me at work, and this only made him angry at me.  I don't understand that mindset.  He saw me as the source of the problem and seemed incapable of viewing the situation any other way, and his inability or unwillingness to understand the reality of the situation cost me my job and wrecked my life.  I was unjustly made out to be the villain of the story and was severely punished for it.  I'm not a bad person, and yet I had to pay a price for someone's preconceived notions of me.  I never got my "day in court," so to speak.  I feel that a huge weight would be removed from my shoulders if he I and were at least on the same page.  I need to make him understand what was really going on, that the whole thing started with her pursuing me, that I never tried to persuade her to leave him, but rather, she persuaded me that she was going to do it.  But how can I just throw her under the bus like that?  Herein lies my conflict.  I feel that if I don't clear the air with him, this will slowly eat away at me a little each day.  It keeps me awake at night sometimes.  And yet my feelings for her prevents me from doing it.  When I take a step back and look at the big picture, she never seemed to give a damn about my feelings, so why do I try so hard to protect hers?

Did I get what I deserved?  Sometimes I can almost make myself believe that.  Anyone who fools around with a married woman should probably expect negative consequences to follow.  And yet I can't help but see it as very shallow on his part that he would make me pay for his marriage problems.  If he wanted to fix his marriage, the place to start was with her.  I wasn't the source of the problem, and I can't help but be angry that I had to pay for it while the two of them go on with their lives like the whole thing was an insignificant incident, a minor inconvenience.  This was truly a traumatic experience for me, and I'm still trying to find some kind closure over a year later.

I guess what I'm really looking for here is some perspective. Who is the bad guy?  I need to lay the blame somewhere.  Until I can do that, I'm stuck in a perpetual state of inner turmoil and indecisiveness.  I want more than anything to call the husband and clue him in on everything.  That's what I really need to do, but then I think about her and I can't.  Its a conflict I seem incapable of resolving.  I know its a tall order, but what I really need is someone to help me put this whole thing in perspective because can't seem to see it in a clear and objective way no matter how hard I try.

[C.Stein]

In a round about way I want to do the same with my ex that you want with her husband.  I want her to know what she did and what it did to me.  I want to dispel the lies she has told herself so she can avoid accountability.  I want this both for myself and for her.  She needs to accept the truth in order to make some positive change in her life.  For me, I do not like being accused/blamed for things I have not done or to have my actions/words twisted into some warped version of reality.  This is my ego ... everyone deals with this ego problem and pretty much everyone here has had their ego severely damaged by their exBPD.  

The question here is how do you repair your ego?  How important is it for you to be right or to be heard?  Why does it matter so much to you?

Yea, it doesn't seem at all fair when you are here destroyed and they have gone on like nothing ever happened.  It is damned frustrating not getting the chance to tell your side of the story in person.  I did tell mine via email but I will never know if any of them got read.  I suspect they probably did not.  Not the same as getting the opportunity to put a voice to my side of the story but it is all I have so I must accept it and let it go.  

This has been a difficult part of letting go for me.  The endless conversations I am having in my head with her, hearing her try to justify, excuse, blame me or anything to avoid taking responsibility for her decisions and actions.  Is this a desire to "lay blame"?  I don't necessarily think that is it but rather a desire for equability and fairness.  I am more than willing, and have, accepted responsibility for the things I did that I regret.  I have "laid the blame" where it belongs in my own mind and this is all that is really necessary.

As with my ex, I could attempt to get her to see the truth of what happened and she might actually see it ... .but for how long?  Eventually she will go back to the lies she has told herself because that is what she needs to do.  She simply cannot accept responsibility for what she did because it makes her look like a bad person and there is too much shame and guilt involved.   This is much like your ex's husband who will simply not accept she chased you and even if he does you accepted her advances so in his mind it likely doesn't matter at all who chased who.  You can "lay the blame" all you want with him and unless he accepts your blame laying unequivocally you will be in the same spot as you are now except with the guilt of knowing the hell that might rain down on your ex from him.  

So what can you really do here?  Her husband is clearly "brainwashed" by her.  Given this. it is highly unlikely he is going to believe a single thing you say and it might even provoke him to lash out at you again.  In the end the only person you should be concerned with is yourself.  You know what happened, who is to blame for what, it does not matter what he thinks.  He will never see you as an innocent and trying to convince him of that is a pointless exercise and will not give you the closure you seek.  Accept responsibility for the part you played, the decisions you made and your actions ... .nothing more.

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter what one person you don't even know thinks about you ... .it really doesn't.

The only absolution you are going to get here is that which you give yourself.

[Nuitari]

C.Stein,

While I can see the wisdom of your words, and even agree with them, they do little to diminish my overwhelming desire to have words with the husband.  I don't pretend to fully understand why, but for whatever reason, its what I need to do to put this whole thing behind me.  Its not about him, but about me.  Regardless of whether he believes me or not, I would have said my peace, and that's what I need.  I fully realize that this will most likely cause him to further lash out at me (especially if I tell him about the affair), but I don't even care anymore. There is nothing he can do that will diminish the satisfaction I would get from coming clean about it all.  

The only thing preventing me from picking up my phone and calling him is her.  Like your ex, she doesn't live in reality and can't see the damage she's caused.  She is like a small child in a woman's body and doesn't have the emotional maturity to understand my reasons for wanting to call her husband (hell, I don't fully understand my reasons for wanting to call him, so how can I expect her to).  It will only make her hate me, and even though we no longer talk, that still matters to me.  :)espite the hatred that I sometimes feel toward her, the idea of her hating me is unbearable. I'm just so sick of this mental roller-coaster ride of going back and forth in my head about how I feel, who exactly I'm angry with, and what to do about it. 

[C.Stein]

I'm just so sick of this mental roller-coaster ride of going back and forth in my head about how I feel, who exactly I'm angry with, and what to do about it. 

At this point I think once you realize the mental roller coaster you are riding is one constructed by you, then and only then will you be able to get off the ride.

[Nuitari]

There are some days when I am so angry that I just want revenge.  I actually have proof of the affair (and some pretty strong evidence that she initiated the relationship) that the husband will have a hard time waving away with his usual self-denial.  I have the power to destroy their lives the way they destroyed mine.  So why haven't I done it?  I don't think anyone could blame me under the circumstances.  They don't harbor any remorse for ruining my life, so why do I harbor so much guilt over the idea of ruining theirs?  Why do I feel the need to be the bigger person?  Now that I understand BPD, I feel that I finally understand her (something I once thought impossible).  Now I need to work on understanding myself.  I've spent over a year fantasizing about revealing everything to the husband. I can't even think about it without smiling.  Its something I clearly want to do, so why can't I?  What is stopping me? I keep "deciding" that I'll do it once I can psych myself up for it, but that day never comes.  All I know is that I have to do something to lose my anger.  I wake up angry every morning.  I go to sleep angry every night, when I'm capable of sleeping that is.  This has been going on for a year, and I know it isn't good for me, neither physically nor mentally.  I feel like I need to call him and get it over with already, but for some reason I'm incapable of it.

[Sunfl0wer]

I don't pretend to fully understand why, but for whatever reason, its what I need to do to put this whole thing behind me.

How could you phrase this sentence so that it is accurate?

You certainly will not at all die if you do not disclose to the H.

We all tell ourselves stories to help us cope with difficult situations, this is understandable and how most of us process events.

H made a choice to portray his W as a victim of you, for whatever reason.  That is the story he decided upon.  (He could have chose to hold her, an adult, accountable for her own actions.  Assuming she was an adult?  Denial is a powerful coping strategy.  Just because you present facts, does not mean he will be ready and able to receive them and leave his state of denial.  Actually, you may come off as someone with poor motive to share this, thus appearing more the villain... .possibly.)

You do not have to tell yourself the story that your well being is in anyway dependent on what you do or do not disclose to another person, however, it seems as though you have talked yourself into this story and made a quite convincing argument to yourself of it.

Sure, you probably would do good to do something about your anger.

How are you doing with the Lessons and stages of detachment?

(I wish I could quickly find the link to the words about our anger in the lessons.)

It is common that many of us struggle with feeling our feelings of pain, and therefore can get stuck in focusing on the emotion anger, and even get stuck focusing our anger on our ex, or in your case, your ex's H.

Do you think it is possible that you have more pain that you are struggle to face vs repress?

Finding closure is all about us and facing our loss and pain and healing.

While you may obtain a sense of relief of some feelings if you disclose... .

Actual growth and healing and closure comes when we learn to direct our care and attention to ourselves.  Care for ourself that was hurt, and listening to our voice and feelings surrounding the aspects of processing the relationship.

If you take steps to contact ex, you are turning your care and attention to H and her instead of where it belongs, to you. This is simply a continuation of what you did while in the relationship, while you allowed the loss of your job and such and did not attend to self care. This was not an act of self love then and would not be an act of self love/care now.  I promise you, you certainly do not need this.  It is drama making and more likely a distraction from where your focus can benefit you.

So do you really think her and H hold the truth of your identity?  Does it matter what they think of you?

I hope you come to a greater understanding and place of greater self love/self importance as time passes... .and also a place of peace and contentment.

[C.Stein]

Its something I clearly want to do, so why can't I?  What is stopping me?

You find yourself hesitating because you know you are better than this and chances are you will feel tremendous guilt and remorse if you act on your emotions.

[Nuitari]

Sunfl0wer and C.Stein,

Thank you both for your replies.  

I've always been a very analytical guy, and I think this is why I'm having such a difficult time processing all of this, and is also the source of my anger.  The husband simply did not have the facts/information needed to come to the conclusions that he did.  I acknowledge my mistakes and paid the price for them.  I can own up to everything I've done.  I'm capable of living in reality.  He isn't.  It was very childish of him to invent so many falsehoods about a person he doesn't even know and then pretend they're reality just because its convenient.  Its probably too much to go into, but he somehow convinced himself of some pretty outrageous things about me.  I didn't just lose my job, but my reputation was ruined too, and I fear this is going to have some serious repercussions in the future.  The act of lying to oneself has always seemed like a very perverse thing to me.  We as humans should strive to be better than that.  Not only did he indulge in it, but I'm left feeling like I had to pay a price for his emotional weaknesses.

The really tragic part about all of this for me is that, at one time, before losing my job, I actually considered calling him and politely asking him to tell his wife to leave me alone, sense I was clearly ineffective at it.  But, as is the case now, I couldn't bring myself to do it without somehow feeling like I'm hurting her.  But looking back, I can't help but regret not doing this.

You find yourself hesitating because you know you are better than this and chances are you will feel tremendous guilt and remorse if you act on your emotions.

That is true.  And yet the husband is allowed to destroy someone's life without feeling the slightest tinge of guilt or remorse.  This is what is so frustrating.  I'm the victim of the story.  Not only did my life get destroyed, but I'm the one left with the burden of guilt and having to worry about their feelings.  He can act on his emotions and ruin a life without guilt, but I do the same I'm a villain. It always seems like different rules apply to me than for others.

[Sunfl0wer]

Why do you think you are responsible for this guy's sense of morality?

What drives you to take on such a role?

[lingering]

Who is the bad guy?  No one, there are a bunch of broken people trying to cope with this terrible drama.  The healing is in the telling, it is true but I think telling a therapist and working through all of those feelings would serve you so much better than trying to get the broken husband of the broken woman you loved to understand.  It is just not going to happen.  It is going to create drama.  Gestalt therapy has a great exercise where you talk to the "chair" representing the person you need to say all those words to.  Stay far away from the drama queen and her king.  Bless you!

[C.Stein]

I've always been a very analytical guy, and I think this is why I'm having such a difficult time processing all of this, and is also the source of my anger.

Let us be analytical then and examine some of your feelings here.  Based on what you said in another thread there is a part of you that wants her marriage to fail and for you to be recycled (see bold below).

When my ex got back with her husband, she wanted to remain friends, but this didn't work because it was too painful for me.  I've been on NC with her for months now, and yet I constantly find myself questioning this decision.  I tell myself that, given all of her problems, that marriage is going to self-destruct at some point, and at least if I'm still in her life when happens I'll have a chance to be with her again.  But then I ask myself why I even want that, given the problems I know she has.  If her marriage does self-destruct one day, why do I think our relationship would fare any better?  Its very confusing.  I can no longer deny that she is a deeply troubled person who is incapable of playing any other role in my life than a destructive one, and yet I've never felt more closer to anyone, and I'm afraid I'll never find that with anyone else.

Do you think that these feelings may be the "invisible" source of your anger, at least in part, and is driving your anger and desire to even the score?

[Nuitari]

Good question. I think my anger is the result of reality finally setting in. Sense going NC with her, my head is finally clearing, and I can see the degree to which I was manipulated and toyed with, and I can clearly see just how senseless and tragic the loss of my job was.  There were several times when I straight up told her that I could not see her or talk to her anymore, that it was too painful.  She always seemed very understanding and would agree to stay away, and I felt as if a huge weight were lifted from my shoulders!  A couple of weeks would go by before she would show up at work again wanting to cry on my shoulder over some personal crises of hers, and I would realize in these moments just how little my own inner turmoil meant to her.  Inside, all I wanted to do was to scream at her and tell her to the leave me alone and let me move on with my life. But that was easier said than done, especially when she was in tears.  Meanwhile the husband is leaving messages on my machine telling me that I better leave his wife alone!  Can you believe that?  The whole situation is so ridiculous its almost comical, except that it ruined my life.  I can now look back at these events with a sense of clarity that I didn't have before, and now I just want some kind of justice and accountability.

I'm finding that just the act of discussing this here is leading to some insights.  As I typed the above paragraph, it occurred to me that what I really need (and maybe my real reason for wanting to talk to the husband) is understanding.  That is the best therapy for me, I think.  For example, just learning that my ex has a personality disorder, just learning about BPD and being able to give a name to her problem has helped me considerably.  I need understanding.  The more I can fill in the gaps in my understanding, the better I'll feel. And what I really yearn for is an understanding of the husband's mentality and actions.  I know for a fact that she's put him through hell. Time after time, she promised him that she would stop calling me and visiting me at work, and time after time, he would see the phone bills and learn that she had lied to him.  I never called her, by the way.  She always called me, and he knew it.  And yet his anger was directed at me.  He deemed it appropriate that I pay the price for her bad behavior, and given that my life got ruined, I think I'm at least entitled to ask why.  I know I've been talking a lot about anger, but I think my reasons for wanting to contact him go beyond anger.  Maybe the anger is really due to my own need for understanding and not getting it.  Maybe understanding is what I need for closure.

[C.Stein]

The more I can fill in the gaps in my understanding, the better I'll feel.

This is good man.  Knowledge and understanding do bring clarity.  Knowing and understanding what drives our own emotions also brings clarity.

And what I really yearn for is an understanding of the husband's mentality and actions.

Knowing what she has done to you, how she has manipulated you, pushed you to do things you were not comfortable doing, etc ... .what else is to understand here?  All you need to do is put yourself in his shoes.  He is just as susceptible to her disorder, probably more, than you are. 

[Nuitari]

I've always been a very analytical guy, and I think this is why I'm having such a difficult time processing all of this, and is also the source of my anger.

Let us be analytical then and examine some of your feelings here.  Based on what you said in another thread there is a part of you that wants her marriage to fail and for you to be recycled (see bold below).

When my ex got back with her husband, she wanted to remain friends, but this didn't work because it was too painful for me.  I've been on NC with her for months now, and yet I constantly find myself questioning this decision.  I tell myself that, given all of her problems, that marriage is going to self-destruct at some point, and at least if I'm still in her life when happens I'll have a chance to be with her again.  But then I ask myself why I even want that, given the problems I know she has.  If her marriage does self-destruct one day, why do I think our relationship would fare any better?  Its very confusing.  I can no longer deny that she is a deeply troubled person who is incapable of playing any other role in my life than a destructive one, and yet I've never felt more closer to anyone, and I'm afraid I'll never find that with anyone else.

Do you think that these feelings may be the "invisible" source of your anger, at least in part, and is driving your anger and desire to even the score?

I've been thinking a lot about this question, and I think its actually the other way around.  The more I think about it, the more clear it becomes to me that my desire to be recycled is a big part of the reason why I haven't called the husband.  She'd be so furious at me that she'd probably never speak to me again.  Any chance of reuniting with her will be gone forever.  I'll have burned that bridge completely.  But in a weird way, this is exactly what I need to be free.  I've been on NC for months now, but it somehow doesn't feel like enough.  The idea of calling the husband is appealing because, not only am I "getting even," but I'm permanently severing all ties with her forever, removing  any possibility of her finding her way back into my life.  I want and need that, and yet ironically it is the very reason why I can't bring myself to call the husband.  Its like there are two of me that want two different things, and I can't find a way to get those two halves of me to agree.

[Nuitari]

Knowing what she has done to you, how she has manipulated you, pushed you to do things you were not comfortable doing, etc ... .what else is to understand here?  All you need to do is put yourself in his shoes.  He is just as susceptible to her disorder, probably more, than you are.  

Maybe.  I'm certainly not going to get closure with her, so I guess in a weird way I'm trying to get closure through the husband?  I'll never know the extent he played in me losing my job.  After being promoted, I was on a two-year probationary period and during this time the school had the right to end my employment at any time, so I was not allowed an appeal or a chance to tell my side of the story.  Who knows what he told the school.  All I know is that no one there, colleagues that I've known for years, will not even speak to me.  I sometimes get the feeling that even my own family, who have been very supportive throughout the whole thing, doesn't really understand.  I sometimes feel like the whole world has typecast me into playing a role that isn't me, and no one wants to listen to what I have to say.  Everyone thinks I was chasing this guy's wife, and I was punished for it.  But I was honestly trying to do the right thing, and I just need some kind of acknowledgment of it.  I just need someone to understand.  The husband actually called me "manipulative" and accused me of trying to ruin his life!  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Some days I am so angry that I just want to call him to get revenge.  Other days, I just want him to understand.  Even if he chooses not to, at least I've finally got to voice my side of things, and just doing that would help me tremendously.  I just know that I have to do something.  I just haven't decided what it is yet.  Going NC with her has helped me a lot.  It was the smartest thing I've done sense meeting her.  But it isn't enough.  Something still seems... .unfinished.  

[C.Stein]

The husband actually called me "manipulative" and accused me of trying to ruin his life!  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Some days I am so angry that I just want to call him to get revenge.  Other days, I just want him to understand.  Even if he chooses not to, at least I've finally got to voice my side of things, and just doing that would help me tremendously.  I just know that I have to do something.  I just haven't decided what it is yet.  Going NC with her has helped me a lot.  It was the smartest thing I've done sense meeting her.  But it isn't enough.  Something still seems... .unfinished.  

Focus on the bold?  Is there some other more healthy way to voice your side of things?   Someone who will actually listen to your story and be able to empathize with your feelings?

[Beacher]

I think the longer you are NC, the urge to contact the husband will diminish.

Try writing a letter that you will never send. Although you have done a great job sharing here and unloading the huge burden on your shoulders, composing something directly to him may help. I'm so sorry you are going through this, I have also done things that I never thought I would do and am sometimes mortified when I look back at my actions. But they are all lessons to be learned in life and we cannot beat ourselves up over them.

Feel better soon ❤️

[Nuitari]

The husband actually called me "manipulative" and accused me of trying to ruin his life!  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Some days I am so angry that I just want to call him to get revenge.  Other days, I just want him to understand.  Even if he chooses not to, at least I've finally got to voice my side of things, and just doing that would help me tremendously.  I just know that I have to do something.  I just haven't decided what it is yet.  Going NC with her has helped me a lot.  It was the smartest thing I've done sense meeting her.  But it isn't enough.  Something still seems... .unfinished.  

Focus on the bold?  Is there some other more healthy way to voice your side of things?   Someone who will actually listen to your story and be able to empathize with your feelings?

Well, coming here is definitely helping me. For a while, I wondered if my contradictory feelings and actions were a sign that I was going crazy. I honestly thought something was wrong with me. But after finding this place, I am seeing others who are voicing my own thoughts and feelings, and I realize now that I'm not alone.  

I don't think my ex ever truly understood what she's put me through.  This is in part due to the fact that the gravity of it didn't hit home for me until after I went NC.  Contact with her kept me in a "brainwashed" state.  I am now seeing things with so much clarity, and am only now feeling things that I should have felt long ago.  I want to make her aware of what she's done to me.  I sometimes think about sending her (and maybe the husband too) an email just to get it all off my chest.  Talking to others makes my situation tolerable, but I can't put it behind me until I share my thoughts with the two people who caused me so much pain.  

[C.Stein]

I don't think my ex ever truly understood what she's put me through.  This is in part due to the fact that the gravity of it didn't hit home for me until after I went NC.  Contact with her kept me in a "brainwashed" state.  I am now seeing things with so much clarity, and am only now feeling things that I should have felt long ago.  I want to make her aware of what she's done to me.  I sometimes think about sending her (and maybe the husband too) an email just to get it all off my chest.  Talking to others makes my situation tolerable, but I can't put it behind me until I share my thoughts with the two people who caused me so much pain.  

I also don't believe my ex even begins to understand, or even knows, how her behavior and actions have impacted me both during and after the throw away.  More importantly, she will never truly understand even if I had the opportunity to talk to her about it. 

It took me many months after being thrown away to even begin to come out of the FOG.  The more the FOG clears the more clarity I have.  I do want to hold her responsible for her part, for what she did because I am relatively certain she has blamed me for everything.  The thing is, it really doesn't matter what I say to her ... .it never did.  She might see my side of things but eventually she will revert back to believing what she needs to believe for her own emotional survival, be it true or not.

Contacting either your ex, her husband or both I feel is going to open a pretty big can of worms.  Do you really want to get into a retaliatory back and forth with these people?  If that were to occur how do you see this furthering your healing?

[Nuitari]

I think the longer you are NC, the urge to contact the husband will diminish.

I hope you are right. So far though, NC has only intensified my feelings and anger, because only now am I beginning to see things clearly.  I am only just waking up to the reality that I've been used and manipulated by someone I loved.

Try writing a letter that you will never send. Although you have done a great job sharing here and unloading the huge burden on your shoulders, composing something directly to him may help.

Its funny you should mention that.  I've actually already been "mentally" writing him a letter. I haven't gone as far as typing it out yet.  I heard it helps to do that, but honestly, I can't see how this will benefit me with the knowledge that he'll never see it.  I know myself well enough to know that typing that letter will only intensify my desire to voice its contents to him, something I'm not yet prepared to do.  My feelings and what I want are so transient right now that I don't dare act on any of them for fear of regretting it later.  

I've always been a very introverted person, and that's only made these events even more tragic and painful for me.  I've always been afraid to let someone close, and when I finally did, my entire world got destroyed.  The wounds are still too fresh, but I feel that this experience has somehow damaged me in ways that I do not yet understand.  I think its going to be very difficult for me to trust anyone again.  I'm trying my best to sort through all of the chaos and emotional turmoil that is swirling around in my head, but deep down, I'm always left with the feeling that I won't be ok until I can confront those responsible.

[Nuitari]

Contacting either your ex, her husband or both I feel is going to open a pretty big can of worms.  :)o you really want to get into a retaliatory back and forth with these people?  If that were to occur how do you see this furthering your healing?

I honestly don't know.  I can't shake the feeling that, whatever the consequences, it will somehow lessen the weight on my shoulders to share my thoughts with them, to remind them that I am a human being with feelings.  Its a compulsion that I suppress every day. I hesitate because, for whatever reason, part of me still cares about her.  I don't know how my actions will affect her, and whether the guilt I'll feel is a price worth paying for whatever "therapy" I'll get out of the act.  I'm only hoping that the FOG will continue to clear to a point where the "right" thing to do becomes obvious.

It just sucks to be the emotionally/morally responsible one.  Both of them got to act on their feelings and impulses, ruin someone's life, and move on with theirs without any remorse.  But if I do something to inconvenience their lives, I'm left feeling like the bad guy.  It doesn't seem fair.

[WoundedBibi]

Nuitari, I understand where you come from. I also feel having been in a relationship with a BPD has changed my life. I think ruined is too strong a word even though I'm not sure if I will be able to do my job again. I've learned from it. I've learned about me and how strong my desire is to be loved. So strong I do stupid things and make stupid decisions the moment someone appears to love me. I've learned I'm not ready for real love until I work on my past wounds. The next guy would be BPD or NPD again. For now, work is a contaminated space where I will feel very unsafe when I go back. I have lost friendships with colleagues over this. I have lost my dignity. How on earth will I ever be able to tell one of my employees there they should do the right thing, to have integrity?  

I have struggled for months about having my say, getting it of my chest. Some days still do.

But from the times I tried this to salvage the relationship at the end, I have learned never to do this again. It blew up in my face. BPDs do not want to be confronted with the fact things and they were not perfect. The retaliation was horific. So, think about it more before you do anything. Big chance of a BIG can of worms and events that you will not be able to control. And isn't what you really want for him to say " Wow... .I didn't know that man... So sorry I got you fired. I didn't realise it was her and not you... "? What are the chances really of that happening? Cause either he is as enmeshed as you were/are or he has BPD issues too (judging by what you described). I *so* get your pain and your need to do this, but IMO it will never get you what you are looking for. I've learned this need I feel does not need to be followed up on. I'm not going to die if I don't. It's an overwhelming feeling, I know. But I now see it as the same overwhelming feeling someone with OCD has to wash their hands 30 times or flip the light switch 45 times. We feel relieved after we've given in to the feeling and do whatever we feel NEED to do. It has something to do with relieving anxiety.

[WoundedBibi]

I would write things down if I were you. I have written and not sent a LOT. It helps in clearing things up. In your mind you just keep going round in circels. So that's what the writing is good for  getting out of the FOG. Just don't send anything would be my advice. It will not get you what you want, apart from a shortlived relief, and might get you in more of a pickle than you are already in.

[Nuitari]

And isn't what you really want for him to say " Wow... .I didn't know that man... So sorry I got you fired. I didn't realise it was her and not you... "?

That would be nice but, honestly, I don't care what he says or thinks, just as long as he hears me.  That's what I need, just to be heard.  

I *so* get your pain and your need to do this, but IMO it will never get you what you are looking for. I've learned this need I feel does not need to be followed up on. I'm not going to die if I don't. It's an overwhelming feeling, I know. But I now see it as the same overwhelming feeling someone with OCD has to wash their hands 30 times or flip the light switch 45 times. We feel relieved after we've given in to the feeling and do whatever we feel NEED to do. It has something to do with relieving anxiety.

Yes!  You get it!  This is exactly what I'm experiencing.  It is an intrusive thought that is always there 24/7.  Its becoming an obsession. I'm actually very proud of myself that I haven't done it yet, but its been a year and a half, and this overwhelming need hasn't diminished.  In fact, sense going NC with her, its actually intensified.  I've spent over a year hanging by a thin thread, and I'm afraid that all its going to take is one moment of weakness.  I honestly don't even know what is keeping me from doing it.  I don't care about consequences. Maybe I should, but I could care less what can of worms this might open.  I just doesn't matter. My hesitancy is somehow related to her.  I know that she'll never speak to me again if I did it.  The act of calling her husband will completely destroy any possibility of her being in my life again. Sometimes I think that is the reason I don't call him, and yet it is also the reason why the idea of calling him is so appealing.  The NC just isn't enough.  She still has a hold on me that I need to sever.  Hope that I might one day be with her again was once the thing that kept me going. Now its become an anchor that's weighing me down, something I want to extinguish forever, and yet part of me can't find the strength to do it.

I would write things down if I were you. I have written and not sent a LOT. It helps in clearing things up. In your mind you just keep going round in circels. So that's what the writing is good for  cool getting out of the FOG. Just don't send anything would be my advice. It will not get you what you want, apart from a shortlived relief, and might get you in more of a pickle than you are already in.

I think I will write letters both to her and the husband. I think you right that it will help clear things up in my own mind.  I can't promise I won't send them, though.  If not now, then perhaps later in life.  No matter how much reflection I do, I keep coming back to the same conclusion over and over, that I'll never put this behind me until I can speak my mind.  That urge is too overwhelming.  :)eep down I know that I'll eventually contact one or both of them someday.  Its just a question of when.  

[WoundedBibi]

You don't have to promise me anything 

I think the obsession will diminish though if you write down what you need to get off your chest without sending it.

I recognise the overwhelming need to be heard. Not just by my ex. It's gets to me whenever I feel I'm not heard. And I know why: I wasn't heard (understood) as a child.

How about your need to be heard?

[C.Stein]

That would be nice but, honestly, I don't care what he says or thinks, just as long as he hears me.  That's what I need, just to be heard.

I think this is the point you are missing here.  He won't hear you, he won't listen, he won't agree.  He has his own version of events he has come to believe in and there is nothing you can say that will change that.  If anything it will reinforce his beliefs.

Yes!  You get it!  This is exactly what I'm experiencing.  It is an intrusive thought that is always there 24/7.  Its becoming an obsession. I'm actually very proud of myself that I haven't done it yet, but its been a year and a half, and this overwhelming need hasn't diminished.  In fact, sense going NC with her, its actually intensified.

I also play conversations over and over again with my ex in my head, talking about things unspoken in an attempt to get her to understand the damage she has done to me, how her behavior impacted me and our relationship.  I want her to acknowledge what she did, to accept responsibility for her role.  The reason why I don't contact her right now is because if she responds, unlikely but still possible, it will not be a response that will bring me relief but rather pain.  I've suffered by her hand (and my own) enough.  

Second reason is even if she hears me and accepts responsibility for her part I know it will be fleeting at best.  Eventually she will go back to believing what she needs to in order to avoid her own guilt and shame.  I will still remain painted black in spite of there being little to no truth behind the reasons.  She has to believe I am the one who wronged her and no amount of truth, no matter how compelling, will ever change that.

I don't care about consequences. Maybe I should, but I could care less what can of worms this might open.  I just doesn't matter.

You should care about your life!  This is a primary issue here and this type of thinking has landed you where you are now.   When you got involved with her you probably also had these feelings to some extent.  Somewhere in your mind you knew you shouldn't have but you did ... .and to hell with the potential consequences.  You might ask yourself now why you would invite even more damage to your life and prolong (or make it worse) the suffering.  

What do you think you can do to shift your thinking away from her and what has happened and instead focus on you, rebuilding your life and moving forward?   Something healthy and constructive.

My hesitancy is somehow related to her.  I know that she'll never speak to me again if I did it.

After what she has done and knowing she is toxic to you why would you care if she doesn't?  Read more of the stories on this board and you might actually find yourself happy she hasn't contacted you.

She still has a hold on me that I need to sever.  Hope that I might one day be with her again was once the thing that kept me going. Now its become an anchor that's weighing me down, something I want to extinguish forever, and yet part of me can't find the strength to do it.

This IMO is the issue you need to work on the most.  Try to identify why you are still feeling this way after all this time.  I think it goes much deeper than your need to be heard.  Once you know why perhaps you can finally let it go.  

I think I will write letters both to her and the husband. I think you right that it will help clear things up in my own mind.  I can't promise I won't send them, though.  If not now, then perhaps later in life.  No matter how much reflection I do, I keep coming back to the same conclusion over and over, that I'll never put this behind me until I can speak my mind.  That urge is too overwhelming.  :)eep down I know that I'll eventually contact one or both of them someday.  Its just a question of when.  

Let's be honest here and call this desire/urge by its proper name ... .revenge.

[WoundedBibi]

C.Stein? Do you think the need to be heard is always a revenge thing? Because I don't. For me it is more about acknowledgement (which I know I will never get from him, so I don't bother anymore). It would be so nice to have an adult conversation; "listen, I did things wrong, you did things wrong, I will always think fondly of how you made me feel in the beginning. Let's shake hands and go our separate ways. I wish you nothing but good." I know now that is no option, but it is why I tried on a few occasions. The last time in spoke to him in the flesh I actually said: "it's such a shame we never had an adult conversation about what happened between us. Maybe one day we can" He stared at a point on the floor with a mix of angry & empty. So I've learned to let go of that need to be heard, to clear the air, to normalise things. But revenge was not on my mind then.

[C.Stein]

C.Stein? Do you think the need to be heard is always a revenge thing?

No, not by any means.  However in this case the distinct impression I am left with is a need for revenge ... .an eye for an eye kind of thing.  

[steelwork]

I recognise the overwhelming need to be heard. Not just by my ex. It's gets to me whenever I feel I'm not heard. And I know why: I wasn't heard (understood) as a child.

100% this ^

Which is why my ex's patterns of communication (evasion and distractedness --> silent treatment --> freeze out --> cut off) were so incredibly damaging to me.

I was quite literally abandoned as a child, so there's that too.

It was torture for a long time restraining myself from sending the long emails I wrote to him in the first several months of silence. Because I wanted to have my say, finally! But then the fear that I would send them and still not be heard outweighed the urge to send them.

[Nuitari]

You don't have to promise me anything 

I think the obsession will diminish though if you write down what you need to get off your chest without sending it.

I recognise the overwhelming need to be heard. Not just by my ex. It's gets to me whenever I feel I'm not heard. And I know why: I wasn't heard (understood) as a child.

How about your need to be heard?

Being heard is very important to me.  There are so many things I could never bring myself to say to her, and that need to say them is still there.  But for whatever reason my hesitancy is still there too.  Part of the reason for going NC with her is because I'm at a point where my emotions are boiling over and I'm afraid that if we talk I'll only end up yelling at her.  Maybe that's why I hesitate.

[Nuitari]

That would be nice but, honestly, I don't care what he says or thinks, just as long as he hears me.  That's what I need, just to be heard.

I think this is the point you are missing here.  He won't hear you, he won't listen, he won't agree.  He has his own version of events he has come to believe in and there is nothing you can say that will change that.  If anything it will reinforce his beliefs.

Sadly, I think you may be right. But I think this may depend in large part to how my letter is phrased and what my motivations are.  If I write a very "diplomatic" and polite letter (leaving out any bad stuff that would incriminate my ex), making it clear that I never had any intentions of ruining his life, and how devastating his actions were on my life, I think he may be more likely to take me seriously.  Surely he's been with her long enough to know that she has issues, and even if he doesn't admit it out loud, I think deep down some part of him will see the sincerity of my words.  

I also think that my letter may have more credibility if it is sent later in life.  It is true that sending it now may not have the desired affect.  But if he receives a letter from me say, five or ten years from now, it will be clear (even to him) that its contents are genuine and that his actions have affected me in a very profound way, that I've spent years carrying a burden.  He can't so easily dismiss my letter under those circumstances.  There is also the possibility that the passing of so much time will leave him more open and receptive to what I have to say.

Yes!  You get it!  This is exactly what I'm experiencing.  It is an intrusive thought that is always there 24/7.  Its becoming an obsession. I'm actually very proud of myself that I haven't done it yet, but its been a year and a half, and this overwhelming need hasn't diminished.  In fact, sense going NC with her, its actually intensified.

I don't care about consequences. Maybe I should, but I could care less what can of worms this might open.  I just doesn't matter.

You should care about your life!  This is a primary issue here and this type of thinking has landed you where you are now.  

Not so much as you might think, but you are right to a degree.  I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to avoid blame, but keep in mind that all the relationship stuff happened during a time when she and her husband were separated, and there was a question regarding whether or not they were going to stay married. Everything was up in the air.  Once she and the husband decided to reconcile, I tried to step away. The husband lashed out at me because she insisted on contacting me. I did care about my life, and I was trying to do the right thing and end the situation. That's the part I feel like no one understands, and is a big source of my frustration.  

My hesitancy is somehow related to her.  I know that she'll never speak to me again if I did it.

After what she has done and knowing she is toxic to you why would you care if she doesn't?  Read more of the stories on this board and you might actually find yourself happy she hasn't contacted you.

She has contacted me.  Or at least she's tried to.  I'm the reason we haven't talked in seven months.  But its still hard to let go and accept the idea of never speaking to her again, despite all the negative feelings that I have for her these days.

She still has a hold on me that I need to sever.  Hope that I might one day be with her again was once the thing that kept me going. Now its become an anchor that's weighing me down, something I want to extinguish forever, and yet part of me can't find the strength to do it.

This IMO is the issue you need to work on the most.  Try to identify why you are still feeling this way after all this time.  I think it goes much deeper than your need to be heard.  Once you know why perhaps you can finally let it go.  

I agree completely. For some time now, I've felt like this is at the heart of everything. Once I can sort it out in my head and understand it, I feel that all the other issues will evaporate. I think this is my biggest challenge, trying to figure out why I have those conflicting feelings.

I think I will write letters both to her and the husband. I think you right that it will help clear things up in my own mind.  I can't promise I won't send them, though.  If not now, then perhaps later in life.  No matter how much reflection I do, I keep coming back to the same conclusion over and over, that I'll never put this behind me until I can speak my mind.  That urge is too overwhelming.  :)eep down I know that I'll eventually contact one or both of them someday.  Its just a question of when.  

Let's be honest here and call this desire/urge by its proper name ... .revenge.

No. I can't call it that because that isn't accurate. Its more complicated than that. I know I've conveyed a lot of anger and resentment in this thread, but the issue isn't as black and white as your interpretation of it. Some days I want revenge. other days I just need to be heard. I'm having a lot of trouble identifying the source of my urge to contact the husband, and this is a big reason why I hesitate. I don't want to do something without understanding what's driving me.

[Nuitari]

That would be nice but, honestly, I don't care what he says or thinks, just as long as he hears me.  That's what I need, just to be heard.

I think this is the point you are missing here.  He won't hear you, he won't listen, he won't agree.  He has his own version of events he has come to believe in and there is nothing you can say that will change that.  If anything it will reinforce his beliefs.

Sadly, I think you may be right. But I think this may depend in large part to how my letter is phrased and what my motivations are.  If I write a very "diplomatic" and polite letter (leaving out any bad stuff that would incriminate my ex), making it clear that I never had any intentions of ruining his life, and how devastating his actions were on my life, I think he may be more likely to take me seriously.  Surely he's been with her long enough to know that she has issues, and even if he doesn't admit it out loud, I think deep down some part of him will see the sincerity of my words.  

I also think that my letter may have more credibility if it is sent later in life.  It is true that sending it now may not have the desired affect.  But if he receives a letter from me say, five or ten years from now, it will be clear (even to him) that its contents are genuine and that his actions have affected me in a very profound way, that I've spent years carrying a burden.  He can't so easily dismiss my letter under those circumstances.  There is also the possibility that the passing of so much time will leave him more open and receptive to what I have to say.

Yes!  You get it!  This is exactly what I'm experiencing.  It is an intrusive thought that is always there 24/7.  Its becoming an obsession. I'm actually very proud of myself that I haven't done it yet, but its been a year and a half, and this overwhelming need hasn't diminished.  In fact, sense going NC with her, its actually intensified.

I don't care about consequences. Maybe I should, but I could care less what can of worms this might open.  I just doesn't matter.

You should care about your life!  This is a primary issue here and this type of thinking has landed you where you are now.  

Not so much as you might think, but you are right to a degree.  I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to avoid blame, but keep in mind that all the relationship stuff happened during a time when she and her husband were separated, and there was a question regarding whether or not they were going to stay married. Everything was up in the air.  Once she and the husband decided to reconcile, I tried to step away. The husband lashed out at me because she insisted on contacting me. I did care about my life, and I was trying to do the right thing and end the situation. That's the part I feel like no one understands, and is a big source of my frustration.  

My hesitancy is somehow related to her.  I know that she'll never speak to me again if I did it.

After what she has done and knowing she is toxic to you why would you care if she doesn't?  Read more of the stories on this board and you might actually find yourself happy she hasn't contacted you.

She has contacted me.  Or at least she's tried to.  I'm the reason we haven't talked in seven months.  But its still hard to let go and accept the idea of never speaking to her again, despite all the negative feelings that I have for her these days.

She still has a hold on me that I need to sever.  Hope that I might one day be with her again was once the thing that kept me going. Now its become an anchor that's weighing me down, something I want to extinguish forever, and yet part of me can't find the strength to do it.

This IMO is the issue you need to work on the most.  Try to identify why you are still feeling this way after all this time.  I think it goes much deeper than your need to be heard.  Once you know why perhaps you can finally let it go.  

I agree completely. For some time now, I've felt like this is at the heart of everything. Once I can sort it out in my head and understand it, I feel that all the other issues will evaporate. I think this is my biggest challenge, trying to figure out why I have those conflicting feelings.

I think I will write letters both to her and the husband. I think you right that it will help clear things up in my own mind.  I can't promise I won't send them, though.  If not now, then perhaps later in life.  No matter how much reflection I do, I keep coming back to the same conclusion over and over, that I'll never put this behind me until I can speak my mind.  That urge is too overwhelming.  :)eep down I know that I'll eventually contact one or both of them someday.  Its just a question of when.  

Let's be honest here and call this desire/urge by its proper name ... .revenge.

No. I can't call it that because that isn't accurate. Its more complicated than that. I know I've conveyed a lot of anger and resentment in this thread, but the issue isn't as black and white as your interpretation of it. Some days I want revenge. Other days I just need to be heard. I'm having a lot of trouble identifying the source of my urge to contact the husband, and this is a big reason why I hesitate. I don't want to do something without understanding what's driving me.

[Nuitari]

C.Stein? Do you think the need to be heard is always a revenge thing?

No, not by any means.  However in this case the distinct impression I am left with is a need for revenge ... .an eye for an eye kind of thing.  

In a small way, what your doing is the very thing that is frustrating me. Like so many others, you're assuming my motivations for me. But given some of my prior posts, that is understandable. I was very angry when writing some of those. I won't lie and say that I don't think about revenge. I do, sometimes A LOT. But I think my anger would evaporate if I could have an adult conversation with the husband (I'm certainly never going to get that from her). I think a big part of my anger comes from my feeling like I'm living in a world where everyone gets to express their feelings and act on them... .everyone but me, who has to hold everything inside for fear of "consequences."  All of the advice you've given me could easily be applied to the husband. I'm sure his actions were a petty way of "getting even," and yet he didn't hesitate, worry about repercussions, or pay a price for his actions. Not only that, but his actions are seen as understandable by others. Both of them got to act on their emotions without thinking twice, and they never looked back. But I'm expected to bite back my emotions for fear of what someone else's emotional outburst might do to me. Sometimes it just seems like everyone else's emotions are more valuable than mine. Its ok for others to show their feelings, but no one wants to be bothered by mine, to the extent that they just aren't going to "hear" me if did voice them. I'm sure you can see why such a thing would frustrate me.

[Allranuthin]

Hello Nuitari,

Welcome.  I am rather new here too.  I am reaching out because I have been grappling with similar feelings stemming from the behavior of my ex w UBPD.  Sounds like you just dove into the most amazing relationship of your life... .amazing feelings you didn't know were even possible!  That's what I did too.  The first mind blowing episode of BPD happened about 5 months in, but I was already at a point of no return.  I rode this roller coaster for almost 8 years.  I was supportive and sacrificing beyond any semblance of reason. My life literally revolved around her and her needs which were drastically compounded by BPD.  Her BPD was in the driver's seat of our relationship. 

In Jan, she up and left in an out of no where explosive departure and ran back to her ex that preceded me. It most likely happened because the ex had recently resurfaced after a few years of no contact with my ex.  My ex lives with her now. While there has been no contact other than a couple short emails in the last couple of months because I have been "deleted" from her life, I am painfully aware that my ex, her ex she is living with, most of our circle of (her) friends, her family and co workers all think I am a rotten immoral controlling unreasonable abusive person since the departure! Since people who knew me and us together in our relationship would have a hard time believing I was so awful that she had abruptly break up, move out and run away screaming and raging---she really had to pour on the lies about me and make me really ugly.   "Poor innocent [ex]... .abused and mistreated and controlled and done wrong through all those years" Few things bring people closer than the shared contempt for another.  They rally around my ex's version of things and cast all the blame towards me.  They are having a great time casting stones my way. 

It keeps me awake at night.  How could people who I thought were friends and family believe these things that are absolutely not true?   They are all participating in my betrayal and the destruction of my lifelong integrity.  I am none of those things!  I am not perfect, but I am a good person!  I have resigned to say nothing.  If I were to throw her under the bus and rant the real truth, I would ruin HER, her career and relationships and that IS NOT who or how I am.

When I think about how things might feel better,  I want nothing more than to clear my name with the truth, but I know... MY truth doesn't matter in her world or the people in it.  It may be the same with your ex?  It sounds like her truth is the opposite of yours right now and her husband has most likely been mercilessly conditioned BY HER that YOU are the one who is to blame and at fault.  Defending yourself might only support that you are "the enemy" or "crazy one" or whatever lie had to be told to secure her good graces and hold on her husband. 

My ex used to offer that this manipulation was "getting people to be on her side". She frequently used it as validation for her behavior.  What mattered to her was her needs, not my feelings. One of her needs was never to expose how irrational and dysregulated her illness made her. Your ex might have it set it up so that you telling the truth will only come back on you and make you feel less validated, more betrayed and hurt, and look more guilty of the alleged crime.   So much has been taken, and personal integrity is a significant matter.  I have collapsed upon the decision that I refuse to give any of them a reason to further question my integrity.  Now, if I knew where else to put or what to do with those awful feelings, I would be in a much better place right now!  Wishing you peace and solace in this turmoil.

[C.Stein]

But I think this may depend in large part to how my letter is phrased and what my motivations are.

Lets examine this.  You seem more stuck on what her husband did to you rather than what she did to you.  What are your motivations here, beyond being generally heard?  

Not so much as you might think, but you are right to a degree.  I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to avoid blame, but keep in mind that all the relationship stuff happened during a time when she and her husband were separated, and there was a question regarding whether or not they were going to stay married. Everything was up in the air.  Once she and the husband decided to reconcile, I tried to step away. The husband lashed out at me because she insisted on contacting me. I did care about my life, and I was trying to do the right thing and end the situation. That's the part I feel like no one understands, and is a big source of my frustration.

What I was referring to was the loss of your job due to her husband as this seems to be the biggest thorn in your side.  The anger and frustration is understandable, I feel it too with my ex and replacement.  

She has contacted me.  Or at least she's tried to.  I'm the reason we haven't talked in seven months.  But its still hard to let go and accept the idea of never speaking to her again, despite all the negative feelings that I have for her these days.

This is the healthy and right thing to do for you, even if it hurts like hell.  It takes a lot of strength to resist something you want so badly.  She is a  highly addictive and toxic drug to you but you have resisted the pull and you should feel proud that you have.

It brings an enormous amount of sorrow to my heart knowing I will never talk to my ex again.  She had become my closest friend on top of the love of my life.  Losing that has been an incredibly bitter pill to swallow and to be honest I haven't been able to completely swallow that pill yet.

I agree completely. For some time now, I've felt like this is at the heart of everything. Once I can sort it out in my head and understand it, I feel that all the other issues will evaporate. I think this is my biggest challenge, trying to figure out why I have those conflicting feelings.

I believe you are right in thinking all the other issues will evaporate once you put your finger on and understand the deeper issues at play here.  You are hanging onto to her (mind and heart) for some reason.  :)o you feel she is your only option for a partner?  Is it her beauty, the sex, her unavailability, her need to be "rescued"?  Are there deeper reasons you might still be so attached to her?  Certainly, as many will attest, the lure of the idealization stage is mind blowing and highly addictive.  If you never really moved out of that stage with her then detaching is essentially like withdrawing from a drug addiction.

No. I can't call it that because that isn't accurate. Its more complicated than that. I know I've conveyed a lot of anger and resentment in this thread, but the issue isn't as black and white as your interpretation of it. Some days I want revenge. other days I just need to be heard. I'm having a lot of trouble identifying the source of my urge to contact the husband, and this is a big reason why I hesitate. I don't want to do something without understanding what's driving me.

You have expressed a lot of anger in this thread and a desire to get even and that is OK.  This is the reason why we are all here, to work through the pain and anger, to have an outlet and a place to share our story with others who have experienced the joy of being in a relationship with a borderline.   Keep in mind we only know as much about your situation as you are willing to share, which is extremely limited given the nature of an anonymous board and a handful of posts.  As a result opinions/assumptions can only be drawn from this limited amount of information.  Your later posts have certainly been more tempered but I still get the sense from your last post the underlying feelings haven't really changed.  It does however show you are starting to think more with your rational/logical mind instead of your emotional one and this is good progress to make.

Aside from the damage she has done to you, over the course of this thread the biggest issue right now for you is her husband and what he did.   Why does it matter to you what her husband thinks of you?  Why do you feel the need to clear your name with him?  

[Nuitari]

Allranuthin,

Thank you for your reply. It sounds like you're in much the same boat as I am right now, and I appreciated hearing your story and advice. I'm sorry for what's happened to you.

When I think about how things might feel better,  I want nothing more than to clear my name with the truth, but I know... MY truth doesn't matter in her world or the people in it.  

I guess for me the biggest problem is getting past what should be to accept what is. Maybe the truth doesn't matter in their world, but it should matter. The truth should always matter. To everyone. My ex's husband and his family have invented some pretty outrageous perceptions about someone they don't even know. I keep racking my brain trying to figure out what thought process led them to those conclusions. I would feel so much better if I knew that chain of reasoning, but I can't see it. The husband's perceptions and beliefs about me don't seem to have any foundation.  Its as if he adopted them simply because they were a better alternative than the idea that his wife was chasing another man.  Its self-deception, plain and simple. That's what makes me angry. My life was ruined because he chose to take the quick and easy rout of basing his beliefs on feelings rather than the more mature and grown up rout of letting reasoning guide his thinking. He called me a womanizer and said that I was only after sex, that I would not take care of her, that I would abuse her and then discard her when I'm done using her.  If that is what he needs to believe to sleep at night, fine, but I shouldn't have had to lose my job for it.  If he wanted to make up his own reality and live in it, so be it.  But for him to choose to act on those made up beliefs knowing how they may affect someone else's future is a very shallow and childish thing to do.  Every aspect of my life has been changed by this.  I lost a job and a home, and it may take years for me to rebuild my life. My reputation has been compromised.  His actions are something I'm going to have to face and explain every time I apply for a teaching job.  I feel like I'm having to pay the price for someone else's self-deception, and that is beyond unjust.

It sounds like her truth is the opposite of yours right now and her husband has most likely been mercilessly conditioned BY HER that YOU are the one who is to blame and at fault.

The thing that makes me doubt this is that she doesn't seem to have a different truth.  She recently sent me an email, and had this to say... .

"I feel really sorry for all the pain I have caused you. It was never my intention to hurt you in any way, but unfortunately sometimes life circumstances get out of our control leaving us vulnerable and miserable. If turning back the time was possible, I would change so much of my past. Even though I never meant to hurt anyone, especially somebody as great as you are, I have still played a very pivotal role in destroying your life. Deep down inside I always believe that you can be very happy with someone else one day and I hope and pray that day will come soon."

She's always been very apologetic about everything that's happened. Now, she's done some manipulating things in the past, but I'm finding it hard to believe that even she could say these words to me and then turn around and tell the husband a different story. I get the strong impression that her husband invented his own story, and to avoid creating an even more hostile environment, she didn't exactly go out of her way to set things straight for him.  

She used to show me text messages that he sent her after telling him that she was leaving him to be with me.  In the beginning, he said stuff like "I failed you as a husband... .I let you down... .please tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll do better... .blah blah blah".  Then he shifted to "You're too stressed out from school and your not thinking straight. You don't really have feelings for another man.  You're just confused because your under too much stress."  It was clear that he was grasping at straws, trying to find some way to rationalize what was happening.  He finally settled for "This guy brainwashed you and turned you against me. He's trying to take you from away me and I can't let you leave because he'll only hurt you."

So, the picture that I'm getting is that he was so in denial that he invented a lot of BS to make himself feel better and, as usual, to avoid accountability with him she found it convenient to let him believe those lies. I don't know if this is what happened but that is the impression I'm left with.

But in the end, I'm afraid that he's so fixed on his own view of things that it just doesn't matter.  Even if my ex decided to tell him the reality of the situation, would he even believe her?  And if he doesn't believe her, what are the odds that he'll believe me?  I keep trying to tell myself that what he think's doesn't matter.  But it's not that easy given the degree that his beliefs have damaged me.  I need to somehow address those beliefs if I'm ever going to have closure.

[Penelope35]

But I think my anger would evaporate if I could have an adult conversation with the husband (I'm certainly never going to get that from her).

Hi Nuitari

I have been following your post and I do understand your urge to contact your ex's husband. BUT. What makes you think you will be able to have an adult converstation with him? And since you say you think your anger may evaborate if you have this conversation with him, have you thought of the huge possibility that it may not be possible to get that from him either?

All I am saying is that you shouldn't base your hopes of managing your anger on him or anybody else and this is exactly why we all need to work on our struggles on our own. Because most of the times counting on others in any way makes things worse. You  just need to be prepared for the possibility to feel more invalidated, unheard and blaimed. It is your decision but please also consider the possibility of getting more hurt and taking steps back in your recovery. And then you can take a very consious decision.

[Nuitari]

But I think this may depend in large part to how my letter is phrased and what my motivations are.

Lets examine this.  You seem more stuck on what her husband did to you rather than what she did to you.  What are your motivations here, beyond being generally heard?  

You've been asking me some really good questions, and I'm finding that I don't have a lot of clear answers. There are some days when I am angry at her, and then other days when I am angry at him.  Both of them have blurred together in my mind as one entity. I guess I'm feeling like I've been misrepresented, and I have a hard time accepting that I had to be punished for someone else's false and baseless views of me. I don't deny that I've made mistakes and done things that I shouldn't have.  I'm not completely innocent.  But the situation is far from the one that he's come to believe. Sometimes I feel like I've been sentenced to a crime that I didn't commit, and even though the damage has been done, I'm still feeling a need to "clear my name."

It brings an enormous amount of sorrow to my heart knowing I will never talk to my ex again.  She had become my closest friend on top of the love of my life.  Losing that has been an incredibly bitter pill to swallow and to be honest I haven't been able to completely swallow that pill yet.

How long as it been sense last communicating with her?  What I'm finding hard to accept is the way our last phone conversation ended. It ended with me hanging up on her in mid-sentence. I was very upset, to the point where I was in tears.  She kept trying to call me back.  She was clearly concerned about me, but I couldn't bring myself to talk to her again, and seven months later I still don't have it in me.  We did communicate a couple of times via email sense then, but it just kills me that our last phone conversation had to end so badly. I hate that it had to end that way. I sometimes think about calling her back one more time just to "make things right" before going NC permanently. Maybe one day I will when and if I can get past the anger. Part of me is hesitant to act on my more immediate desires for "revenge" and to be heard because I know this will most likely further alienate her from me, depriving me of the closure with her that I need.

You are hanging onto to her (mind and heart) for some reason.  :)o you feel she is your only option for a partner?  Is it her beauty, the sex, her unavailability, her need to be "rescued"?  Are there deeper reasons you might still be so attached to her?

I wish I had the answers to these questions. I don't know my reasons for hanging on to her. I just know that I connected with someone in a way that I never thought possible, and its hard to throw that away. I also sometimes feel guilty going NC with her because I feel like I abandoned her. Even after the relationship ended and she reconciled with her husband, I was always the first person she called when she had a problem. For whatever reason, she needed me in her life. Even though the relationship had ended, we were still very close, and I feel like I threw away something very special. I know that I paint her in a very negative light here, but in some ways she was a good friend. She was always willing to offer advice and help with any problems I had, except for those that were of her making. She couldn't bare to discuss those with me, even though those were the problems I desperately needed help with. She either didn't know or didn't care that she was not giving me the closure I needed.  And so here I am, trying to find it another way.

No. I can't call it that because that isn't accurate. Its more complicated than that. I know I've conveyed a lot of anger and resentment in this thread, but the issue isn't as black and white as your interpretation of it. Some days I want revenge. other days I just need to be heard. I'm having a lot of trouble identifying the source of my urge to contact the husband, and this is a big reason why I hesitate. I don't want to do something without understanding what's driving me.

You have expressed a lot of anger in this thread and a desire to get even and that is OK.  This is the reason why we are all here, to work through the pain and anger, to have an outlet and a place to share our story with others who have experienced the joy of being in a relationship with a borderline.   Keep in mind we only know as much about your situation as you are willing to share, which is extremely limited given the nature of an anonymous board and a handful of posts.  As a result opinions/assumptions can only be drawn from this limited amount of information.  Your later posts have certainly been more tempered but I still get the sense from your last post the underlying feelings haven't really changed.  It does however show you are starting to think more with your rational/logical mind instead of your emotional one and this is good progress to make.

I'm getting the impression from you that you think its all about revenge for me, and that I'm trying pass it off as something else to avoid admitting it. I assure that this is not the case. I don't deny that a desire for revenge is part of it, but I think my need to be heard is the more fundamental issue. Revenge is only appealing when I begin to think about how I'm never going to be heard.  

Aside from the damage she has done to you, over the course of this thread the biggest issue right now for you is her husband and what he did.   Why does it matter to you what her husband thinks of you?  Why do you feel the need to clear your name with him?  

I think it has to do with closure. What has happened to me has been tragic, and it has all been based on a bunch of misunderstandings, and I'm finding that moving on is hard without clearing those up first.

I think it also has to do with the fact that I've been made to feel very insignificant.  Neither my ex or the husband seem to suffer any lasting affects from the whole thing. Its ancient history to them. They played a big part in ruining someone and then they walk off into the sunset together holding hands? How do human beings treat each other that way. If I am heard, then I am at least validated as a human being. I never even got that. If your going to destroy someone's life, the very least you can do is devote 10 minutes of yours hearing that person out. Its just common courtesy.

[Nuitari]

But I think my anger would evaporate if I could have an adult conversation with the husband (I'm certainly never going to get that from her).

Hi Nuitari

I have been following your post and I do understand your urge to contact your ex's husband. BUT. What makes you think you will be able to have an adult converstation with him? And since you say you think your anger may evaborate if you have this conversation with him, have you thought of the huge possibility that it may not be possible to get that from him either?

All I am saying is that you shouldn't base your hopes of managing your anger on him or anybody else and this is exactly why we all need to work on our struggles on our own. Because most of the times counting on others in any way makes things worse. You  just need to be prepared for the possibility to feel more invalidated, unheard and blaimed. It is your decision but please also consider the possibility of getting more hurt and taking steps back in your recovery. And then you can take a very consious decision.

Penelope,

Thank you for your post.  I have considered those possible negative effects that might arise from contacting the husband.  I think its a big reason why I hesitate and why I've come to this place for guidance. There is a part me, though, that feels that just speaking out would be enough, and if he chooses not to believe a single word I say, so be it. At least I had my say. Maybe its just the act of voicing my thoughts that is importance. I can acknowledge my own state of confusion right now, and it makes me very hesitant to act on anything I'm feeling.  I am hoping that the passage of time will help clarify things for me.  Perhaps one day I can look back at this time of my life and everything will be crystal clear. That is my hope anyway. Until that day comes, I am trying my best to refrain from doing anything impulsive.  I've decided to write letters to both of them like someone suggested earlier.  I'm not sure about the sending them part though. That is still up in the air for me. I'm going to take things one step at a time. I'll write the letters, and then take it from there.

EDIT: I think typing this post has just given me some insight! I blame myself for the husband's view of me. There was a time when he wanted to have a conversation with me, but I passed it up because all I wanted to do was remove myself from the whole situation that was destroying my life. If he thinks badly of me now, I'm partly to blame. If I voice my side of the story to him, he may still hang on to his delusions, but that's his decision, and I'm no longer responsible for it.  If I can have my say, then I've redeemed myself.  He can then believe whatever he wants, but I don't think its going to bother me anymore!

[WoundedBibi]

I sometimes think about calling her back one more time just to "make things right" before going NC permanently. Maybe one day I will when and if I can get past the anger. Part of me is hesitant to act on my more immediate desires for "revenge" and to be heard because I know this will most likely further alienate her from me, depriving me of the closure with her that I need.

What makes you think another call would end in another way?

What things need to be made right? Her seeing your side? Her admitting she lied to this other guy about what went on between you? You expect a person with a personality disorder to react to you as if she is someone without a personality disorder. Besides, hasn't she already admitted to what you wanted to hear in her email? That she was a big part of ruining your life? What else do you need her to say?

You expect her to give you closure. She can't give you that. YOU need to give YOU closure.

I don't deny that a desire for revenge is part of it, but I think my need to be heard is the more fundamental issue. Revenge is only appealing when I begin to think about how I'm never going to be heard.

As you know I *know* what it is like to want to be heard, this NEED inside. But she will not be able to hear you. Neither will he. Have you really thought about how enmeshed he might be with her or that he might have (have traits of) a disorder too? A pwBPD or NPD *literally* hears you say something else than you are saying. Whenever I would say "green" to my ex he would hear me say "orange" and to protect himself would tell his minions I had said "purple with yellow dots". They process words in a different way, give them different meaning than you do. Your words will not enter her mind as you have uttered them. She cannot hear what you say.

I *so* know your need but try to find a way to accept that you will never be heard by these people. That doesn't mean you will never ever be heard again by anyone, just not by these 2.

I think it has to do with closure. What has happened to me has been tragic, and it has all been based on a bunch of misunderstandings, and I'm finding that moving on is hard without clearing those up first.

Green, orange, purple with yellow dots. The misunderstandings will not be cleared up. Your truth is not hers or his. It will never be.

If your going to destroy someone's life, the very least you can do is devote 10 minutes of yours hearing that person out. Its just common courtesy.

Nuitari... .since when do people hear someone out when they are about to destroy their lives? Since when do people who destroy lives show common courtesy?

"I'm about to shoot you in the head, but I will show you some common courtesy first so I'm giving you 10 minutes to tell me what kind of person you are before I blow your brains out."

I feel bad, as if I'm about to burst your bubble, but as someone who gets the need to be heard, and who is suffering big time as a result of a smear campaign based on misunderstandings and lies and who will probably lose her job as a result of getting involved with a BPD guy, I feel I need to. My ex will never hear me. The misunderstandings will never be cleared. I will never be able to rectify what these 60 minions have been told about me or think about me. I will have to accept that my career is probably over and I will have to start over somewhere else. It is not fair. But it is what it is. I chose to get involved with a guy, not knowing what ails him, and these are the consequences. And I will have to deal with them no matter how unfair.

Hang in there Nuitari  

[Nuitari]

What makes you think another call would end in another way?

What things need to be made right? Her seeing your side? Her admitting she lied to this other guy about what went on between you? You expect a person with a personality disorder to react to you as if she is someone without a personality disorder. Besides, hasn't she already admitted to what you wanted to hear in her email? That she was a big part of ruining your life? What else do you need her to say?

You expect her to give you closure. She can't give you that. YOU need to give YOU closure.

I probably should have been more clear about this. I felt terrible about just hanging up on her, and I want to fix that. That last phone conversation still haunts me. I don't like that our last conversation ended like that, and I sometimes entertain the thought of calling her to just to say goodbye. That's really important to me, just calling to say I felt bad about our last conversation, and saying goodbye with no other expectations from her. Saying it over an email just isn't the same. That's the closure I was talking about in that paragraph. Nothing more. Just me wishing her the best and saying goodbye. I can't even do that right now because I'm so angry. I feel like I'll only end up yelling at her.  But maybe a day will come when I can do that.  

As far as the misunderstandings not being cleared up, my brain tells me that you're probably right about that. But I keep thinking that somehow I'll feel better if I can voice my side of things, something I've never gotten to do.  Once I do that, they're opinion won't matter so much to me.  At least that's how I sometimes feel.

I'm sorry to hear about your job being in jeopardy. It sounds like your handling it a lot better than me. I hope you don't lose your job.

[Nuitari]

I'm angry again.

I can only seem to shake it off temporarily before it comes back. Yesterday was the closest I've come to calling the husband and telling him everything.  But I was physically unable to because somehow she's stopping me. If she weren't in the way, I wouldn't hesitate.

I think I've finally put my finger on the source of my anger. Their marriage is a joke. No one knows that better than I do. My job wasn't a joke. It meant something. If you guy's knew me personally, you would see that it was my reason for waking up every morning. I had to lose my job so that he could save is joke of a marriage. That's why I'm angry. I know I made my share of mistakes, but I was at least smart enough to eventually realize she was toxic and to avoid her at all costs. This guy is so disturbed that he not only chooses to remain in that abusive relationship, but he's willing to destroy the lives of others to do it! The whole thing makes me sick.

[Nuitari]

Someone in another thread had this to say... .

... .and if you're going to be in a long term r/s with someone who has BPD ... .then you're going to have to accept this is going to be your life with them.

That says it all. But instead of accepting that simple truth, he decides to destroy a stranger's life instead.  Its a shallow and childish and cowardly thing to do. How can I not be angry?

I've began writing the letters. I'm still on the fence about sending them but, you guys are right, the writing does help to a degree. I'm just tired of being angry everyday. Its turning me into someone I don't like. I'm becoming a jerk to everyone. I know that just making my feeling known to them both would help alleviate my anger, but if that is wrong, what else can I do? I need help.

[WoundedBibi]

Someone in another thread had this to say... .

... .and if you're going to be in a long term r/s with someone who has BPD ... .then you're going to have to accept this is going to be your life with them.

That says it all. But instead of accepting that simple truth, he decides to destroy a stranger's life instead.  Its a shallow and childish and cowardly thing to do. How can I not be angry?

Making sure you would lose your job is vindictive. You have every right to be angry about that.

The thread you're quoting, that is something you NOW know. It's probably not something he knows or would accept; he's with her and not on this board (yet). Your truth isn't his truth.

I've began writing the letters. I'm still on the fence about sending them but, you guys are right, the writing does help to a degree.

Good! I'm glad it is helping you 

I know that just making my feeling known to them both would help alleviate my anger, but if that is wrong, what else can I do? I need help.

Nobody says it is wrong. It just might not be the best thing. Maybe you need to think about a few options regarding the outcome if you do:

- you write the letters, send them, and you're still angry. Perhaps you still won't feel as if you've been heard. Perhaps you still want him to apologize to you, which most likely will not happen.

- you write the letters, send them, they respond to you in a way you don't like. I don't know, let's say they write you back saying you're a ... .(fill out something offensive). Then what? You might get angrier. It might escalate.

-  you write the letters, send them, and they decide to pay you a 'friendly' visit. Escalation.

- Or a smear campaign follows, like what happened to me.

Are you able and willing to live with any or all of these outcomes? Is feeling now that you might be heard worth the risk of making the situation worse? Why is expressing your anger in this way *so* important to you? Are there other ways to get rid of your anger which does not involve them?

[Nuitari]

The thread you're quoting, that is something you NOW know. It's probably not something he knows or would accept; he's with her and not on this board (yet). Your truth isn't his truth.

He doesn't like to live in reality, so I had to pay for it? Doesn't sound like a good deal. The next time my ex sets her sights on another man, I wonder if that poor guy will have to lose his job too. Or worse. Hopefully that guy will be smarter than I was and not get drawn in to begin with. When the husband married her, he also took on the responsibility of dealing with whatever emotional/mental/personality issues she may have. By saying "I do" he was accepting that kind of life. Now he wants to punish others for his mistake. The whole thing just seems perverse to me.

Nobody says it is wrong. It just might not be the best thing. Maybe you need to think about a few options regarding the outcome if you do:

- you write the letters, send them, and you're still angry. Perhaps you still won't feel as if you've been heard. Perhaps you still want him to apologize to you, which most likely will not happen.

- you write the letters, send them, they respond to you in a way you don't like. I don't know, let's say they write you back saying you're a ... .(fill out something offensive). Then what? You might get angrier. It might escalate.

-  you write the letters, send them, and they decide to pay you a 'friendly' visit. Escalation.

- Or a smear campaign follows, like what happened to me.

Are you able and willing to live with any or all of these outcomes?

Honestly, yes. This is something I've been thinking about everyday for well over a year. I've given a lot of thought to what the possible outcomes can be. I've considered everything you mentioned above, and I've concluded that there is no retaliatory act that they can do to me that is worse than what I'm experiencing now everyday. You bring up some very good reasons why shouldn't mail the letters, but none of them are deterrents for me. It's all about her. She's the only reason I hesitate. She still has some hold over me. She's still controlling me. I don't talk to her anymore, and I swore never to speak to her again. But if I do this and make her angry with me, this pretty much seals it. Despite everything, the idea of never speaking to her again is something I'm still having a hard time accepting. Like someone else said in another thread, I keep trying to humanize her faults. I want to forgive her. That's why I hesitate. My decision would be an easy one if she had been a total b___ to me 24/7, but there is this other side to her that is considerate and apologetic of all the damage she's caused. This side of her seems to genuinely care about my well-being. I don't know if that side of her is even real, but what if it is? I don't want to do anything that might hurt that person.

Why is expressing your anger in this way *so* important to you?

I feel like I've been treated like dirt, so maybe its somehow tied to my sense of self-worth? She made me believe she loved me, but she just used me for her own temporary needs, then goes running back to the husband. Then he takes from me the one other thing that meant something to me, and then they get to walk off into the sunset together holding hands without even giving me an opportunity to even put a voice to my frustration? I'm broken inside. If nothing else, they should at least know that. Everyone I confide in about this acts like its weird that I feel the need to contact them and express my anger. But given what they did (especially the husband. I can buy that my ex never meant to destroy my life, but everything he did was deliberate), wouldn't it be more weird if I didn't want to? It just isn't natural for a person to endure so much psychological trauma by someone else's hands and not vent they're frustration at those responsible. I keep having debates with myself about whether to send or not send those letters, but I feel that mentally I've already crossed a line I can't come back from. I feel like I won't be whole again until I confront them, even if its just in a letter. Even though my letters do express anger, I'm trying to keep them as polite as possible. I'm trying not to make this about revenge, but about releasing a lot that is pent up inside me. Maybe that will have to be enough.

[JohnLove]

Hello Nuitari, and welcome to bpdfamily. I have only just stumbled across your thread and  have spent some time of my own life reading through your posts... .and the responses.

The first thing I would like to add... .or clear up, is that it is a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN NEED to be heard. EVERYONE wants to be "heard"... .to be able to express themselves freely, to be who they are, even if that means being at peace with others... .or not. This is not unhealthy desire or a unnatural condition... .or heaven forbid, a disorder.

I think you summed it up quite succinctly much earlier on when you said you needed JUSTICE. I could recognise that need for yourself a mile away. I am glad you came to that conclusion yourself... .and I believe it is why you are in such pain. Justice and revenge seem similar but are really worlds apart.

These seems to be way too much speculation about the husband and how he is thinking... .but I have no doubt he is caught up in a terrible FOG. Blaming someone else for his problems is the easy way out but is not in the least bit helpful. I suspect this is not the first time he has been caught up in this immature behaviour with his "wife".

I know nothing about this man other than he is in the military,is vindictive, and responded to his wife's cheating with violence. Not physical violence but violence against you all the same.

And by this I am concerned for you if you reach out to him in any way. He is in denial and has shown how he deals with very real, real life problems. Understand he is being manipulated just like you were. I fear this won't bode well for either of you if you decide to take it further.

I know how unfair this is Nuitari. You have been made in to a victim through no fault of your own other than your own poor choices. I understand PERFECTLY how this could happen. pwBPD are not that intelligent in the general sense but until you have "experienced" their cunning, their deception, and their manipulation, you really have no idea.

I'm sorry this happened to you but continuing the mindset that it ruined your life... .is only going to ruin your life. I'm sorry your reputation was damaged. My reputation is EVERYTHING to me. But you have learnt some very tough lessons living through all of this, and stating that you don't feel you will be able to trust again is the worst... .but that should ensure this never happens again to you and you won't repeat the same mistakes.

Her, on the other hand, WILL repeat her mistakes if she has BPD. That is a given. Maybe not with you but if she is seductive and manipulative... .and attractive she won't have too much trouble. I pity her next "victim"... .she sounds like the embodiment of the Black Widow.

I want for you a new Love for yourself and a real partner who won't "inflict" herself on you but offer you GENUINE Love and warmth.

Know that you did not REALLY know her... .you spent a lot of time with her and on her but I believe she didn't share the most intimate parts of herself with you.

But for her and him... .you really think they are living a life of bliss and you were only a minor inconvenience?... .not only did she have a partner, she took a vow and was MARRIED. One thing I know about cheaters is they cheat. She has probably done this before and it is my belief that she will do it again... .and all it will take is him "abandoning" her by going away to work.

Don't think she won't contact you at some point... .even if you did burn bridges. One thing I understand about pwBPD is they can be persistent with individuals who give them narcissistic supply. PREPARE YOURSELF FOR THIS MENTALLY.

These idiots are just as bad as each other... .both in full blown denial, and that is going to blow up in both their faces... .and I hope you won't be around or care enough when it happens. There is no happily ever after in their story, although I sincerely hope you find yours.

While you are living a very authentic life. Good for you. I know its painful but I can recognise the good in you from your writings. We all make mistakes. You should not be condemed for them.

Go easier on yourself... .no matter which road you choose to take.

I wish you well, mate.

[Nuitari]

JohnLove,

Thank you for your reply. I know those first couple of posts of mine were very lengthy, and I appreciate you and others taking the time read through them, as well as your thoughtful responses.

This experience has been traumatic, and I'm afraid there is no recovering from it. I'm not sure how well I conveyed it in this thread, but I am a very introverted person (or at least I was until this incident). I spent my whole life bottling everything up inside. I've always had a hard time letting someone close. Needless to say, I never had much luck with relationships. My ex was the first person I 100% opened up to. I let her get close to me. She made me feel like I was loved, something that I had given up on. The first time in my life I decided to trust someone and make myself vulnerable, my whole world fell apart, and it only provided vindication of my life-long fears of becoming too personal with others. The wounds are still too fresh, but I feel that this experience has done something to me psychologically. It has changed me in a profound way that I do not yet understand. When I say that my life was ruined, I'm talking about much more than my job loss. Every aspect of my life has changed. Nothing is the same anymore. I feel like something inside me has died.

I'm not me anymore. Bottling up my emotions used to be second nature to me. Now its all I can do to keep them inside.

You are probably right when you say I never really knew her, and it's making me question everything else I thought I knew. My ex was the most beautiful woman I've ever seen, and she radiated sincerity. When I first knew her, before the relationship, I would look into her eyes, and I could have never imagined that she was capable of dishonesty or of hurting anyone. If I could choose one word to describe her appearance and her voice, it would "angelic." How can someone that beautiful cause so much pain and be so cruel? When I look back at the things she's done, calling her "human" is generous. The world just doesn't make sense anymore. How can I believe anything now?

Even after everything, I am finding it hard to sever the personal connection that I made with her. I think this is a big reason why I haven't sought revenge. Giving into my anger would be admitting to myself how much she played with my feelings, that it was all a con, nothing genuine about it. I wish I didn't, but I still feel this deep, personal attachment to her. I still have pictures of her and I together. And even though I can no longer bring myself to look at them, I also can't bring myself to throw them away, and I wouldn't trade those pictures for anything, even for my job back.

[JohnLove]

I have no doubt this experience has been traumatic for you, just as some of mine have been for me. The circumstances you describe are horrific. It is no wonder you are suffering from the fallout from this.

Recovery is possible no matter how slim that may seem right now. I understand you have been going in circles for over a year. Letting someone get close to you is how you have a close relationship... .so I can understand that might not have been a possibility before this woman came into your life. I am also picking up that you were very devoted to your work. A workaholic of sorts... .and the loss of that relationship and then your job was particularly devastating to you. I know what you mean when you say your life has been ruined or that you have been ruined. I feel your pain when you say something inside you has died. I have had similar experiences. The betrayal that you have felt at the hands of this "woman" cannot be understated.

I am concerned that you focused solely on your employment for reasons of your own and you may have been avoiding relationships to protect yourself from something you might already know or be uncomfortable with. Maybe you didn't have a positive or healthy relationship with your Mother?... .and this is why you were primarily concerned with financial success or employment rewards in life. So you sought success and happiness there. Know this position probably made you suceptible to this woman and her needs. Let me know if I have it wrong.

The description you give of this woman is particularly disturbing... .because I would want someone like that in my life... .but her behaviours and your personal circumstances deeply contrast this description of her. It is no wonder you are feeling conflicted. I would read up on FOG. I would use the tools on this website to assist you in processing your pain and grief.

I have no doubt you had genuine Love for this woman but for it not to be reciprocated authentically by her when her "needs" changed... .or it suited her, means it was something else. You don't need to sever the personal connection. She already did. An intimate relationship takes two. I expect she was authentic at times with you. But if my suspicions are correct. She has a personality disorder. Know this is no simple matter. It may well wreck her life. It may well wreck her husbands life. You know what effect she ultimately had on your life and on YOU. It can be impossible to understand as it defies logic. While it is true understanding can help with almost any situation. The limitation may well be mental illness. You may well hurt yourself trying to process her actions into something understandable.

It is a hallmark of BPD relationships to fail catastrophically... .and without closure. This has all the symptoms. Something to also consider is that with her shame based disorder, in her mind she may believe you hate her for what she has done to you. This is a not unreasonable assumption. The depth of your despair is palpable. :'(

I agree... .this experience (for want of a better word) has changed you. It has damaged you in ways you cant process. There is no doubt about that. You need to heal from this. Others here have suggested therapy. I would suggest therapy may help with the right therapist... .whoever they are, and whatever modality they might practice.

There is no doubt you are in a mess... .you and I both know you need to pick up the pieces and start again to build a life truly worth living. You will do that day by day. You need to connect again with people who are concerned for you and will offer support. You need to do things for you. I know it is easier said than done. Some days for me are kinda non-productive in the financial or development sense. But I feel I am rebalancing. You have made very long term statements about the hurting. You need to let go of this mindset. This will take time.

WITH EVERY ENDING THERE IS A NEW BEGINNING.

She is not the sole source of your happiness. Quite the contrary. You need to find YOUR happiness. You are stuck and should find people you can connect with in order to regain yourself. bpdfamily is but one source.  

[joeramabeme]

Nothing is the same anymore. I feel like something inside me has died.

I'm not me anymore. Bottling up my emotions used to be second nature to me. Now its all I can do to keep them inside.

Nuitari - Very powerful post - thank you for sharing all of that.  I think you are on to something very deep here about yourself and JohnLove gave some very good ideas about it all.

Every aspect of my life has changed. Nothing is the same anymore. I feel like something inside me has died.

I'm not me anymore. Bottling up my emotions used to be second nature to me. Now its all I can do to keep them inside.

I would like to tell you of a similar experience I had with the hopes that it may provide a benchmark of some kind for where where your feelings are at and some hope of what can be.  

In case you do not feel like reading this lengthy story, I want to be sure and say I know how hard all this can be.  You are definitely in the right place here at bpdfamily and will begin to feel better over time.  Please keep posting and let us know how you are doing.  As hard as it may seem to believe, you will gradually start to feel better and your life will move in a new and improved direction.  We are here for you!

Here is the story . . .

In my early 30's I was committed to the idea that I would never get married - saw too much pain and suffering during my parents marriage and said I would never put myself in those circumstances.  As a young man, I was taught that there is no need to buy the cow if you can get the milk for free; I tried my best to live to that idea.  

During this time in my life, a really pretty woman I worked with (head of HR) approached me and asked me to go out with her.  I was floored and impressed and said yes.  She was in the process of divorce and unbeknownst to me at the time, I was her boy-toy.  

She had a really nice home and a 5-year old son and everything was 'just so' with her; meticulous, well thought out, high-end belongings etc.  She was a narcissist and took great pride in her looks and how the world perceived her - I felt a sense of pride that I was good enough to fit into her picture, even though I was her transition from married to single - a guy who she probably thought would teach her how to be with single again.  She also had this quirk that she wanted to be told "I love you" when being intimate - For me, I felt like no problem at all.  

Somehow in the course of telling her I loved her, I became obsessed.  I fell in love with this woman in a very unhealthy way.  I became taken in by all the narcissistic trappings.  She shattered my construct for dating and relationships - one I never really liked anyway but rigorously defended.  

The perfection, the looks, the charm . . . I fell for all of it - hard.  I thought she loved me deeply - she told me so - I believed her and I suspect that a part of her really meant it.  But the truth was, I was the "free milk".  As our friendship/relationship advanced she started to make it clear that she did not want a long term thing with me.  Too late, I really let my walls down.  I actually asked her to marry me a few different times.

She eventually ended things between us and I was devastated for well over a year and this was a relationship that only lasted 3-4 months.  It changed me forever.  In summary, I went from a guy who wanted little or no attachments to any women into a guy who wanted to move in, be a Dad and play house forever.  And I chose to make this change-of-heart with a woman who clearly was just looking for a transition.  

Despite my feelings, I strangely knew that I really did not want to marry this woman - I simply became enamored with the idea that I could love someone and she had all the external trappings that allowed me to envision what could be.  I knew it was unhealthy for me, but something inside me got triggered and I could not turn it off.  I was powerless and helpless and the walls I had constructed came tumbling down - never to be rebuilt.

That was ~20 years ago.  Retrospectively, I can see that I made sense of my childhood experience of my parents very unhealthy and unhappy marriage by claiming I did not want to have an emotionally intimate relationship - but I really did.  The r/s I described opened me up that awareness in 3 months time after 20 years denying it.  I would never want to feel all those feelings again and yet, I would never want to change back into believing that I didn't want emotional intimacy.

Fast forward to today, I can see how that experience was pivotal in opening me up to a new way of being, one I really did desire, but didn't have the awareness or tools to cultivate for myself.  My relationships now have and have had far more depth and meaning since that experience and I am far more fulfilled with these r/s experiences than I had ever been with the old way of being.  

I tell this story because I see a parallel with your story.  There was so much pain in letting go because it literally threw me out of an old way of being into a new place that I had no familiarity with and was extraordinarily uncomfortable being in and this was in stark contrast to the way I had been moving all my previous adult years.  In short, it forced to me address the reasons I had chose that path for so many years.

I am not saying that any of this is explicitly true for you, rather, that we learn about ourselves in unexpected ways and that the amount of pain we are feeling is likely in proportion to some internal facet of our being that isn't aligned with who we truly are.  Perhaps something inside of you really has died.  Perhaps this experience is a birth of sorts into a new way of being?

Though this may sound a little trite given the pain you are in; years later I bumped into this woman at the gym and she went out of her way to come over and apologize to me and tell me that she really did care about me but she wanted something different but thought I was a really great guy who deserved the same in another woman.

Blessings, JRB

[Nuitari]

Recovery is possible no matter how slim that may seem right now. I understand you have been going in circles for over a year. Letting someone get close to you is how you have a close relationship... .so I can understand that might not have been a possibility before this woman came into your life. I am also picking up that you were very devoted to your work. A workaholic of sorts... .and the loss of that relationship and then your job was particularly devastating to you.

My job was my life. So, yeah, you could call me a workaholic. I don't know if you've ever had a job that you truly loved doing, that you couldn't wait to do everyday, but that's what I had. I would have done it for free. It wasn't about money. Teaching is my passion. It fulfilled me and gave me identity and purpose. It made me feel alive. That college was my home. Before I met my ex, I would have sworn that I'd never trade that job for anything. But she came along, and things got serious really fast, and I reached a point where I was willing to give it up to be with her. She and I talked about it. She was applying for grad schools, some them out of state, and I had already made up my mind that if she moved away to go to grad school, I was going to quit my job and go with her. As long as I was with her, I didn't need my job. But in the end I lost them both. And if that isn't bad enough, I have to lay awake at night knowing that she's in bed with the man to took my job away from me, and thinking about that makes me want to scream. The whole thing is like a really bad joke.

I am concerned that you focused solely on your employment for reasons of your own and you may have been avoiding relationships to protect yourself from something you might already know or be uncomfortable with.

That's possible I suppose. I know I was involved in my work to a degree that is atypical. Like I said, I considered that place my home. Its still so hard for me to believe that I'll never see it again, and it'll always haunt me that I had to leave the school under such disgraceful circumstances. I was appreciated there and looked up to, and I feel like I let the school down. Like I mentioned earlier, I contacted some of my former co-workers to ask them for references, and some will not even speak to me. Who knows what they must think of me.

Maybe you didn't have a positive or healthy relationship with your Mother?... .and this is why you were primarily concerned with financial success or employment rewards in life. So you sought success and happiness there. Know this position probably made you suceptible to this woman and her needs. Let me know if I have it wrong.

This isn't really accurate. I've always had a positive relationship with my mother, and my family in general. But I wouldn't say I've had a particularly "close" relationship with them. That's not their fault but mine. I've always been a very distant and withdrawn person. I grew up in a very loving family, so I can't blame that on them. It's just my personality. Maybe I have a personality disorder of my own? I don't know, but I'll admit that I've always had the feeling that I was using my job to fill a void in my life.

The description you give of this woman is particularly disturbing... .because I would want someone like that in my life... .but her behaviours and your personal circumstances deeply contrast this description of her. It is no wonder you are feeling conflicted. I would read up on FOG. I would use the tools on this website to assist you in processing your pain and grief.

I am no longer under any delusions about who, and what, she is. I just can't understand how we can live in a universe where someone that beautiful can be so disturbed and uncaring. If you met her, you would understand how I was so easily seduced. Her appearance, her scent, the sound of voice, its all hypnotic, and she made it so hard for me to think rationally. I never would have thought it possible that someone can be so appealing to the five senses while being so abusive emotionally.

I have no doubt you had genuine Love for this woman but for it not to be reciprocated authentically by her when her "needs" changed... .or it suited her, means it was something else. You don't need to sever the personal connection. She already did.

But here's the thing. Even though we aren't talking anymore, there's no hard feelings on her end. She ended her last email to me by saying "I truly wish you the best with everything," and I think she was sincere. But there are hard feelings on my end that I never got to voice, and I need to. All this stuff I'm saying here, I need to say it to her before I can move on. So here is my predicament. If I break NC to get all this stuff off my chest, something I really need to, it will help in one way. But in another way I'm afraid I'll end up feeling worse. Given that we ended things in a somewhat ok way, I'm afraid that contacting her and unloading my frustrations on her is only going to widen the rift between us, something that, for whatever reason, scares me.

Something to also consider is that with her shame based disorder, in her mind she may believe you hate her for what she has done to you.

This is possible. She's even asked me before if I hated her. And honestly, most days I do feel like I hate her. When I lost my job she was so upset with her husband that for a while she was talking about divorce again, but I'm sure this didn't stop her from jumping back into bed with him. I couldn't see it when I was with her, I guess because I didn't want to, but I think she's a sex addict. Sex will always take precedence over everything else. Now that the FOG is clearing, I can no longer believe that she didn't hesitate to sleep with him after what he did, all while professing to me to be angry with him and wanting to leave him, and that really hurts. She's never admitted it, but she's said enough to make me suspect that she's had threesomes with her husband and a female co-worker of his. I know they've at least discussed it. And this was after I lost my job. In some ways, she knew me better than my own family. She knew how much my job meant to me, and she seemed to genuinely love me. How could she turn around and do those things with a man who went out of his way to ruin my career? How can I ever trust anyone again after something like this?

I agree... .this experience (for want of a better word) has changed you. It has damaged you in ways you cant process. There is no doubt about that. You need to heal from this. Others here have suggested therapy. I would suggest therapy may help with the right therapist... .whoever they are, and whatever modality they might practice.

I've considered therapy, but its not going to be easy for me to share all of this personal stuff with someone. Its been hard enough to discuss these problems anonomously on a message board. How can I say these things to a stranger's face? That's going to be hard.

The very fact that I was able to open up so completely to my ex shows that I loved her, because that's not something I can typically do, and I feel like it was all a waste. She was the first woman I ever told I loved, and I meant every word, but I might as well have been talking to a wall. I finally found it in me to give a part of myself to another, and I offered it to someone who isn't capable of accepting it, or of even appreciating how significant my gesture was.

She has always been very apologetic to me for what happened with my job, but I never got the impression that she's at all sorry for the emotional turmoil that she created inside me. I don't think she has the emotional maturity to understand how she's made me feel. As far as she's concerned, things are going to be fine with me when I get another job. She doesn't even understand that my problems run deeper than unemployment. Knowing her has left me with problems that are going to follow me for a very long time, maybe for the rest of my life, and I feel the need to make her aware of that.

[Nuitari]

Joeramabeme,

Wow. I really appreciate your story because it does parallel mine. Like you, I am learning a lot about myself from my experience with this woman. I always told myself that I never needed or wanted closeness and emotional intimacy. But now I suspect that, not only did I want it but, deep down, I was starved for it. I can no longer deny that I don't want to be alone, that I would like to share my life with another, but this horrific experience has only made it that much harder for me to get close and to trust. I loved this woman so much that I would have given up everything to be with her. I had to give up everything all right, but instead of being with her, I have to entertain the idea of her having orgies with the man who helped ruin my career? How can I recover from that? I've always had an intense fear of rejection. I finally let down my walls, and got hurt. I'm an exposed nerve now. I don't exactly know where to go from here, but what I'm taking away from your story is that I can look at my experience as a fatal one, or I can see it and use it as an opportunity for growth. I will think a lot on this.

At least it sounds like your ex wasn't a terrible person, just someone who had different relationship goals from your own. What nags at me every waking moment is how used I feel. I gave her my heart, but I was only an object to her. I know this is an odd thing for a man to say, but I feel violated somehow. There is no such thing as a normal life for me now, and the thought that everything is fine now between her and the husband infuriates me.

I really appreciated your post because I can see a lot of myself in that story. Just knowing that someone survived a similar experience is nice.

[sweet tooth]

@Nuitari: That is some heavy duty stuff. Please accept my sympathies for your plight. As you said, all three of you have a responsibility for the situation. Please don't beat yourself up for falling in love with a mentally ill person. Everyone on this board has done it. And yes, there is an addictive element to all of this. My story is far less severe than yours, but I relate to the mixed feelings, wanting to take her back even though she caused you pain, etc. We are co-dependents. Please look up what a co-dependent is and any coping strategies that you can use to improve yourself.

[Turkish]

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