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Author Topic: Contact: Emotional Aftermath  (Read 859 times)
C.Stein
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« on: April 10, 2016, 05:29:41 AM »

Continuing this thread.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=292531.0




Well, I finally read it about 30 mins ago.   Not really sure why she chose to Re: that particular email.  She addressed nothing I said in that email.  This was one of the reasons I thought she might contact me so I am not all that surprised.

It would appear her announcement that she was going to move has come about.  So she is gone, to where I do not know.  Probably out of the area as she said she was going to.  Apparently she left some of my things there for me and forgot she left them, remembers 4 days after she was gone.  


I had some things left out for you last Thursday.  Luckily the new tenants saved it.  Please let me know if you want those items back.  There are the movie dvds and a long blue rope.  Also the box for the canon lens is in there.

Please let me know when you can swing by to pick it up so I can tell the tenants that you will be by to pick it up.  If you don't want it I will also let them know they can either keep it or throw it away.

Thanks!



I admit I am feeling a lot of sadness for several reasons.  

First, she still cannot find it within her heart to apologize for anything.  The coldness of her heart is staggering.  

Second, she is gone forever and with that comes a finality that cannot be escaped.  There was perhaps a very small part of me that still hoped for the happy ending.  

I suppose I do not have to be afraid of running into her anymore, if she really has moved out of the area.  

I don't really know what to do with this email.
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heartandwhole
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2016, 05:46:06 AM »

Oh C.Stein,

I'm sorry.   I know this wasn't what you were expecting, and my heart would feel crushed after receiving such a message, too. As you said, there is a finality about the news of her moving. As painful as that fact is, it can also ultimately help with the detachment process.

I remember a huge turning pont for me was when hope died. It hurt like he!l, but it helped me to let go.

We are here for you.

heartandwhole
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When the pain of love increases your joy, roses and lilies fill the garden of your soul.
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2016, 05:47:31 AM »

C Stein,

Perhaps this is the closure you seek. The coldness and unemotional nature of the breakup is something I can totally relate to... .when mine left after 51 days, she was cold and unemotional... .she almost looked different in the face.

The finality is something we all have to deal with, especially those of us who are not fully detached (yet). Always remember, these people do not process emotions like you or I. They are emotionally dysregulated and mentally ill. You can click your ruby slippers three times and wish as much as you want to (I'm talking to myself now as well)... .some things in life just were not meant to be.

If you miss your pwBPD half as much as I miss mine, I feel for you with everything I have within me. Let's move on, something better is out there for you and me.

"The calendar changes, they don't" -Unknown
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jessedsickabouther
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2016, 06:10:30 AM »

I'm sorry

They don't care. It's that simple.  Painful.  Gut wrenchingly heartbreaking.  Sad.

There is nothing you can do or say. Many of us can imagine how you feel today and I feel your pain more than you could know.

Man hug.

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C.Stein
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2016, 06:22:55 AM »

I'm sorry.   I know this wasn't what you were expecting, and my heart would feel crushed after receiving such a message, too. As you said, there is a finality about the news of her moving. As painful as that fact is, it can also ultimately help with the detachment process.

I do feel crushed in some respects.  It has been exceeding difficult to let her go from my heart.  Regardless of how much damage she has done to me I still wanted that "dream" I shared with her.  I not only have to find a way to let go of her but also that dream.  Even at 8 months I still struggle with this and the email just made it very clear how much I am struggling with it.

I remember a huge turning pont for me was when hope died. It hurt like he!l, but it helped me to let go.

It is weird, because my hope was tempered with the reality of what a life with her would most likely bring, and it wasn't by any means peaches and cream.  When I have felt "hope" since being thrown away I have also felt fear at the same time.  I both wanted to try and work it out and to run away as fast as I could.  

Perhaps this is the closure you seek. The coldness and unemotional nature of the breakup is something I can totally relate to... .when mine left after 51 days, she was cold and unemotional... .she almost looked different in the face.

There is no closure here.  Her coldness post trash bin has been one of the things that has stuck with me.  How easy it was for her to replace me and delete me from her life like she never felt anything for me at all.   It is hard to accept that someone who you were/are deeply in love with can throw you away with apparent ease and no remorse, guilt or regret.  That she obviously did not really feel the deep love for me that she claimed to have and I was nothing more than an object to be thrown away when I was no longer useful or needed.
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WoundedBibi
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2016, 07:25:08 AM »

Continuing this thread.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=292531.0




Well, I finally read it about 30 mins ago.   Not really sure why she chose to Re: that particular email.

Because it was in her inbox and it was easy? Or to rub it in she doesn't give a rodent's behind about how you feel? Or both?

Excerpt
She addressed nothing I said in that email.  This was one of the reasons I thought she might contact me so I am not all that surprised.

It would appear her announcement that she was going to move has come about.  So she is gone, to where I do not know.  Probably out of the area as she said she was going to.  Apparently she left some of my things there for me and forgot she left them, remembers 4 days after she was gone. 


I had some things left out for you last Thursday.  Luckily the new tenants saved it.  Please let me know if you want those items back.  There are the movie dvds and a long blue rope.  Also the box for the canon lens is in there.

Please let me know when you can swing by to pick it up so I can tell the tenants that you will be by to pick it up.  If you don't want it I will also let them know they can either keep it or throw it away.

Thanks!



I admit I am feeling a lot of sadness for several reasons.   

First, she still cannot find it within her heart to apologize for anything.  The coldness of her heart is staggering. 

I don't want to minimize the way you feel, because you feel how you feel and you have every right to do so.

But if she has BPD, even only a little as you think, at some point some BPD behaviour will come out. And pwBPD don't apologize. They either actually don't remember they did anything wrong so they don't see there is anything to apologize for. Or they suppress the shame of doing something wrong and apologizing would open the door to shame so no way she's going to go there. Or they don't get the emotional link between events and in time; it's been 8 months already so it can't possibly be you're still upset. She has moved on so you must have too.

As I said, no to minimize how you feel, but just saying she is cold goes past the fact she has BPD. And above are some reasons I picked up from pwBPD boards why they behave like they do.

Excerpt
Second, she is gone forever and with that comes a finality that cannot be escaped.  There was perhaps a very small part of me that still hoped for the happy ending. 

I suppose I do not have to be afraid of running into her anymore, if she really has moved out of the area.

Maybe at some point it will feel as a relief that you don't have to worry about running into her anymore.

Excerpt
I don't really know what to do with this email.

Do? What you are doing now, grieving whatever hope you still had for a magical happy ending. Other than that, decide if you want your stuff back or not. If not, leave it. If you do, send a short respons and take care of it with the tenants. Personally I would let the stuff go; if you haven't missed it in 8 months you can do without it.

But I would not respond to her other than about the stuff. Let her go and set yourself free.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2016, 07:30:45 AM »

Excerpt
I remember a huge turning pont for me was when hope died. It hurt like he!l, but it helped me to let go.

This was my experience as well. 

Odd, because after I had my own place, my son's health improved, and even though I KNEW I would never take him back... .   (As I knew logically that we were better off)

Somehow after contacting him and him rudely expressing disgust with me, that he was dating... .  Somehow for me, that ended something inside me, call it hope?  And from that moment, I did a more thorough detaching with way more clarity and focus than before.

I think it was my heart detaching, catching up with the mind.

It was certainly a huge turning point that hurt like hell, yet I am grateful for.
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2016, 07:58:33 AM »

I'm sorry.   I know this wasn't what you were expecting, and my heart would feel crushed after receiving such a message, too. As you said, there is a finality about the news of her moving. As painful as that fact is, it can also ultimately help with the detachment process.

I do feel crushed in some respects.  It has been exceeding difficult to let her go from my heart.  Regardless of how much damage she has done to me I still wanted that "dream" I shared with her.  I not only have to find a way to let go of her but also that dream.  Even at 8 months I still struggle with this and the email just made it very clear how much I am struggling with it.

I'm so sorry - we all are. There's not a person on these boards who hasn't struggled with the raw pain of letting go of our hopes and dreams for a r/s.  

I posted the following roughly 4 months after my r/s ended. It addresses this very topic.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Sometimes I wonder why I’m still crying.  It’s not like the last four years were very good – they were, at best, occasionally pleasant.  But yet I keep crying.

Intellectually I know that everything she did – the habitual lying, the repeated infidelities, the dysfunctional swings between neediness and vindictiveness – were a result of her chronic inability to regulate her emotions.  Whether this is BPD or something else entirely, the truth is that these were HER issues.  Not mine.  Not caused by me.  Not issues I could “fix.”  I KNOW this.  Intellectually, I know these patterns were present in her relationships long before I met her.  She hinted at this herself in many conversations; her best friend even confirmed it for me. Her therapist told me that the pattern of unfaithfulness I described was indicative of serious, deeply rooted issues.  But even knowing these things hasn't helped; I’m still having a hard time letting it all go.  

Yet, I realized today that I’m not crying because I want to reconcile – if she showed up on my doorstep tomorrow I couldn't talk myself into taking her back.  I’m not crying because I’m afraid to be alone – the truth is that I was never lonelier than when I was with her – and, in some ways, breaking up has been a relief.  I’m not crying because I am secretly afraid that I’m not “good enough” to be loved – I know that, while I’m not perfect, I have generous heart and a lot of love to offer.

I finally realized today that I’m crying because I’m mourning the death of all the hopes and dreams I had for us as a couple.  I’m crying because I've finally accepted that she’s not emotionally capable of the healthy, loving relationship I imagined we would have for the rest of our lives.  I’m crying because, even when all reasonable chances for a relationship have faded, hopes and dreams die a long, slow, painful death.


_____________________________________________________________________________

There is no magic fix for the pain - but the passage of time will help. Time will help you re-write the story, no matter how much you never wanted to have to re-write it.

Much of my pain arose from my own thoughts about how the rest of my life was going to look. I had to let go and write a different story for myself. In fact, I'm still writing it.
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2016, 08:07:00 AM »

C.Stein, i am so sorry that the email was not the kind of email you had expected.

Does she say that she is moving out from the area or you just assume? She may just have got another place in the same neighbourhood?

If she responded to this particular (or peculiar, I never know which one to use in this case... .) email (the last one you sent if I remember well) may mean that she read it as she seems to have kept it and not deleted it. No?

I know what it feels to keep hoping for the "peaches and cream"

Maybe it is the sign that it is time for you to close that "book" (part of your life) and go on hoping these peaches and cream with someone else? What do you think?

It may be the possibility for you to finalize the grief process. I hope so

Take good care of yourself and come back here if you are struggling with difficult thoughts or feelings 

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C.Stein
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2016, 08:53:14 AM »

I posted the following roughly 4 months after my r/s ended. It addresses this very topic.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Sometimes I wonder why I’m still crying.  It’s not like the last four years were very good – they were, at best, occasionally pleasant.  But yet I keep crying.

Intellectually I know that everything she did – the habitual lying, the repeated infidelities, the dysfunctional swings between neediness and vindictiveness – were a result of her chronic inability to regulate her emotions.  Whether this is BPD or something else entirely, the truth is that these were HER issues.  Not mine.  Not caused by me.  Not issues I could “fix.”  I KNOW this.  Intellectually, I know these patterns were present in her relationships long before I met her.  She hinted at this herself in many conversations; her best friend even confirmed it for me. Her therapist told me that the pattern of unfaithfulness I described was indicative of serious, deeply rooted issues.  But even knowing these things hasn't helped; I’m still having a hard time letting it all go.  

Yet, I realized today that I’m not crying because I want to reconcile – if she showed up on my doorstep tomorrow I couldn't talk myself into taking her back.  I’m not crying because I’m afraid to be alone – the truth is that I was never lonelier than when I was with her – and, in some ways, breaking up has been a relief.  I’m not crying because I am secretly afraid that I’m not “good enough” to be loved – I know that, while I’m not perfect, I have generous heart and a lot of love to offer.

I finally realized today that I’m crying because I’m mourning the death of all the hopes and dreams I had for us as a couple.  I’m crying because I've finally accepted that she’s not emotionally capable of the healthy, loving relationship I imagined we would have for the rest of our lives.  I’m crying because, even when all reasonable chances for a relationship have faded, hopes and dreams die a long, slow, painful death.


_____________________________________________________________________________

This is a relatively accurate account of how I am feeling right now, and I am sorry anyone has to ever feel this way.  Why I still have such deep feelings and pain 8 months after being thrown away is something that confuses the hell out of me.

C.Stein, i am so sorry that the email was not the kind of email you had expected.

It both was and wasn't.  I don't know if I should take this as her driving home the fact she has coldly cut me out of her life without regret or remorse, or if she is looking to reopen a line of communication and this gave her a reason to contact me.

Does she say that she is moving out from the area or you just assume? She may just have got another place in the same neighbourhood?

She told me in the last weeks of our relationship, after the 2nd discard, that she had been thinking about moving out of the area.  The last time I saw her she blurted out that she was moving and gave me reason to believe it was out of the area but did not say where specifically.

If she responded to this particular (or peculiar, I never know which one to use in this case... .) email (the last one you sent if I remember well) may mean that she read it as she seems to have kept it and not deleted it. No?

Perhaps, one can only speculate.  What I posted was everything she wrote.  There was no original content included with exception to the subject line of the email.

Worth noting it was not the last email I sent, but it was the last long one.  I did send a very short note during my intense struggles to accept the truth of what likely happened.

I know what it feels to keep hoping for the "peaches and cream"

There is a part of me that doesn't want to let her go from my heart.  I really don't know why this is.

Maybe it is the sign that it is time for you to close that "book" (part of your life) and go on hoping these peaches and cream with someone else? What do you think?

It may be the possibility for you to finalize the grief process. I hope so

This would be the logical and rational conclusion but one I have been unable to see let alone achieve.  The email just brought to the surface all the emotions that are still there.  While knowing I will eventually reach a state of indifference, the journey has been excruciatingly slow and painful.

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JerryRG
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2016, 08:58:54 AM »

I'm sorry you had to deal with this C.Stein

You have been such a supportive person for me and so many others here.

Hang in there and let me know if I can be of any help.

Sending prayers your way.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2016, 09:35:27 AM »

A BPD will never take ownership of their flaws or failings, no matter what, their cognitive distortions will not go away--and you'll be helping them make you crazier, with each contact!.

Be strong and move on, try to close that chapter of your life that has brought so much chaos to your world. The only satisfaction/revenge you'll ever get with a borderline, is to shut them out/ignore them completely. The very minute that you re-engage, you're giving away your power and giving them the attention(narcissistic supply) they're craving for. In truth, the only kind of closure you can get on this, involves you coming to terms with the fact that you've tried to have functional relationship with a dysfunctional individual . Learn and grow from this experience and work hard to get well, so you can eventually be attracted to someone healthier.
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Fateful

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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2016, 10:08:38 AM »

I would take some time to both rejoice and mourn--as strange as that sounds.

Unless you already got over the fear, you no longer have to be concerned about what may happen if you ran into her and the emotional stress that comes from that. You can live freely in your physical body; consequently, I think your emotional state will improve greatly. At the same time, her lack of physical presence and decision to move must be quite sorrowful as well. I believe someone mentioned the finality of it being so impactful and the dream or fantasy disappearing. I suppose I would wonder if you want to live with and hang onto a dream for a person who in reality does not fit that picture. Make the dream come true with someone who loves you unconditonally. Someone who, if you saw an email from in your inbox, would give you joy--not make your gut drop. I can't tell you how many emails I've got that just didn't have what I wanted to hear--because she's confabulating and telling a different story than what is reality.

I don't want to be rude and bring my story into this, but I'm going through the prelim stages of something like this. My ex mentioned she was looking to move before her last discard. As sick as it sounds, I hope it happens. It would be best for the both of us. Her lease is up in June; I guess I'll have to wait and see, although I have gone no contact for over a month and I don't think she's reaching out to me anymore. Because of the NC, she became furious at me and victimized herself.

I wish you well, C. Stein.
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2016, 10:58:49 AM »



I finally realized today that I’m crying because I’m mourning the death of all the hopes and dreams I had for us as a couple.  I’m crying because I've finally accepted that she’s not emotionally capable of the healthy, loving relationship I imagined we would have for the rest of our lives.  I’m crying because, even when all reasonable chances for a relationship have faded, hopes and dreams die a long, slow, painful death.


_____________________________________________________________________________

There is no magic fix for the pain - but the passage of time will help. Time will help you re-write the story, no matter how much you never wanted to have to re-write it.

Much of my pain arose from my own thoughts about how the rest of my life was going to look. I had to let go and write a different story for myself. In fact, I'm still writing it.

This describes the grieving I've been doing about my family relationships--particularly my mother. It wasn't until D broke my heart that I clearly saw my r/s with my mother for what it was and was not and never could be. In that case I still have to walk through the pantomime of a mother/daughter relationship and continue to be the bigger person until one of us dies. But the same basics apply to the r/s with D., which I guess is why the truth came to me now.

Therein lies the gift, C.Stein. It's odd to call this kind of global heartbreak a gift, but this is my two cents: I believe sincerely that until you reach the point where you understand you are grieving for yourself--that she was only a player, and not as big a one as you thought--you haven't gotten what's owed you for your suffering. Once that really sinks in, she'll begin to diminish in importance. And that's what detachment is really about, right?

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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2016, 12:05:12 PM »

I'm sending you warmth and support 

My ex touched me in ways that no one else ever has. Under the disorder there is a real soul. I thought I had found my one and only soul mate, too, and I go around and around, wanting to think the good times were all a lie. But they weren't. We had such a connection.

That's what I think we grieve. These are real people—real, hurting people. The loss to them and to us is profound.

I am so sorry for your loss.
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sweet tooth
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2016, 12:06:09 PM »

Do you want your stuff back? If so, go get it.  If not, tell her to shove it up her a**!
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2016, 12:36:58 PM »

It both was and wasn't.  I don't know if I should take this as her driving home the fact she has coldly cut me out of her life without regret or remorse, or if she is looking to reopen a line of communication and this gave her a reason to contact me.


There is a part of me that doesn't want to let her go from my heart.  I really don't know why this is.

I mentioned in my previous thread the email the contents will likely be indifferent with hooks. And that is what you got.

Now the question is back to you. Do you want this person in your life?

If not, they ignore the email; don't pick up your stuff (it is just small beans in the scheme of life). No word, no answer and just move on.

Now if you want to take the hook then that is for you to decide. It's pretty easy. Just along the lines of if you every need support or someone to hang with 'in this part of town' etc. Enjoyed my time with you, thanks for giving the heads up with my stuff, etc, etc.

Just know this will never be the romantic relationship you are seeking and even in the future if it changes that direction it would be temporary. But having this person in your life can be okay; having a different view of the world helps ground your own. Your choice.

And lastly, I do want to say I hope you are doing well. Relationships are tough, well especially the aftermath. The beauty is we have all these choices. Which ways we want to go and who we want in our lives. We can still be ourselves and still let people in. This is a wonderful growing moment for you; use it in the way you want to grow. Cheers.
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2016, 01:31:46 PM »

Jhkbuzz... .Your reposted comments sum me up exactly. The pain is almost unbearable at times, your words are so true for me.c.Stien, feeling your pain, one day at a time and try to rewrite your story... .
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2016, 03:54:21 PM »

  What a disappointment. And what a ride you took yourself on... .wondering and hoping what this would be about. So much more than there was in the email!

Letting go of all those hopes and dreams is so very very hard to do, and keeps coming back with a bit more of it that you didn't realize was still there.

My marriage ended on much better terms, so I'm in contact with stbexw, which is moving from civil toward friendly even. Still, I found myself in a situation of weird uncertainty of wondering if I want to read something myself, and in fact, I still haven't opened it to read yet.

My wife is an author, and has finished her second book. This book is a deeply personal book for her, and the subject matter is something that was also deeply personal for me--not quite as much as for her, but still something very significant that started a few years into our marriage and continued for ~20 years. Something that was very much shared, even if it was always 51+% hers, and we both knew it when there were not thoughts of splitting for decades.

Anyhow, I've been kinda conflicted about whether I want to read it or not. Not sure I want those feelings. Not sure that I will feel comfortable about how I'm represented in the book. But also not wanting to hurt her by trying to take her book away from her or keep her from publishing it. Not that I could anyways... .but I could make her feel feel worse about it, and I don't even want to do that. Yes, I'm pretty conflicted!

Anyhow, I did come up with one possible solution that might have helped you with this dilemma, C.Stein, had I read these topics earlier: I sent the draft of the book to a dear trusted friend, one who knows the story of my marriage failing... .thinking that I might ask my friend to read it and let me know if it was safe before I opened it. Knowing that my friend could be trusted to look out for me, but wouldn't personally be triggered by reading any of it. Turns out I'm probably going to read it first... .but I think I'll share it with that friend just so we can talk about it.

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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2016, 05:06:59 PM »

Hey C.Stein,

they really cannot take any responsibility for their actions, and the email you received is just the n-th confirmation of this.

Don't scratch your head, they are what they are... .their perception of reality is very distorted and it feeds their need to be always the victim.
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C.Stein
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2016, 06:37:06 PM »

Thank you all for your kind thoughts and support.  It really means a lot to me.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Unless you already got over the fear, you no longer have to be concerned about what may happen if you ran into her and the emotional stress that comes from that.

Yes, this is true.  The odd thing is, when I was out picking up some stuff earlier I saw a car that looked just like hers with a girl who could have been her if she had gained a lot of face weight ... .say due to a pregnancy.  I can't say for sure it was her but the chances of someone that could have been her, driving that make/model/color of car are very very small.

What a disappointment. And what a ride you took yourself on... .wondering and hoping what this would be about. So much more than there was in the email!

Letting go of all those hopes and dreams is so very very hard to do, and keeps coming back with a bit more of it that you didn't realize was still there.

Yes, I was hoping for and dreading more.  One thing this email has done is make it glaringly obvious how deeply I still love her and how much I miss her.  If only she could have been a raging, hateful, dysfunctional mess most of the time ... .but she wasn't.  Most of the time she was a kind, gentle and loving partner who was never like that and she enriched my life.  It has been incredibly hard to let that go.

It was the occasional BPD behavior that undermined everything for me, pushed me away and when she deceived and lied to me for the most petty reason it shattered me.  I know the most likely reasons why she couldn't fix what she had broken but it still confuses me how she could just give up on something she had wanted so much, even if I know the likely reasons for that too.

It is days like today that bring back the waves of guilt and remorse for the role I played in letting the relationship die.  The intense deep sorrow and sense of loss that I haven't really felt much of for months is back.

I don't really know what I am looking for here, to respond and open the door to continued contact and whatever that leads to or to leave her "dead to me".  The fear of the nightmare that could have happened had we gotten married conflicts so much with the thoughts of how much joy and happiness we could have shared together.  Then the thought of how easily she replaced me and gave herself and her love to another man not only rips me apart but disgusts me as well.  In the past I have been able to mostly get past infidelity but for some reason this time it is different with one exception ... .days like today.  On days like today I feel like I really could put it all behind me and try to make things work with her.

The fact she asked me twice to contact her about the stuff in the email strongly suggests she wants to hear from me.  The email did not come from the address I sent it to so I am uncertain what to make of the Re: subject line.  Perhaps she is trying to find out is I still feel she is dead to me.  Perhaps she is just looking for someone to fix her website that has been down for almost 6 months, which is very very surprising as her website was very important to her both before and during our relationship.  Perhaps she is looking to see if I have put it all behind me, for whatever reason.

As once removed said in the previous thread, this email just generated more questions and provided no answers.

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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2016, 07:13:06 PM »

Depending on her personality or disorder you may, one day, get a better description from her of why she did it that way. After 3 cold discards over the last year from my BPD ex, I eventually got genuine explanations and apologies. As we know, they are real and loving people under all the push away behaviours, but when in that dark mode it can be the strangest thing, as though you never knew them or they never knew you, so perplexing.

Only yesterday I managed a conversation in person with my ex, 2 months after our final breakup. I still love him so I feel ill with heartache and longing today. He says he just acted out of fear and in his head he thought I was constantly on the brink of leaving him. And his cold behaviour is purely a self protecting mechanism. He's able to talk about it now he's collapsed into his depression phase, but he knows the mess he makes of it when we're together so still wants to stay clear of the relationship.

There are so many phases and episodes of various behaviour to BPD, no one could ever explain what it's like to someone who hasn't experienced such a relationship themselves. But although she's so cold and disappearing like that, it's really a self protecting mechanism from the imagined abandonment feelings and the constant negative dialogue running through their heads. I've gotta say though, even with the explanations and more positive contact from my ex of late, it doesn't make it any easier to see his good side come back out again. Just makes me miss him and wish he'd go to therapy and stay with me. So I don't know which is worse. But that cold discarded hell is pretty terrible! Been in it a lot and I understand your hopes being dashed once again (as mine are every time I have contact with my BPD!)

Though it can be good to focus on the fact that the cold discard would've been happening over and over, while you're in that feeling, to help you remember why you are lucky to be far from that relationship.
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2016, 07:23:45 PM »

I'll just add that, if you really want more closure sometimes when the dust has settled they come back down to earth and talk and apologise etc Though as I said it doesn't always make it easier, even when they own some of the behaviour. But it has surprised me that when I've reached out to my ex an an honest and calm way that he can talk and respond, so long as he's not still in an angry blaming phase. If you pick your moment right a good conversation can sometimes be possible. But probably not a good relationship as when they get close to us again the triggers of fear come rising up and you are once again demonized. But I know how hard it is to remember that when you're focussed on the love part of it. I too struggle with that inner conflict... .daily
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2016, 08:04:19 PM »

this email just generated more questions and provided no answers.

Not so much. It did give you one answer, it just isn't one that you like.

She is incapable of coming back to you with some vulnerability, acknowledging that she behaved badly, apologizing, and asking you to take her back.

This is at best a quarter-measure... .not even a full half-measure to get you back. (I've got some experience with half-measures myself. I haven't bit on one yet.)

I think you are worth a partner who can offer you more than that. I'm pretty sure you know that. Your heart probably hasn't caught up to your head though.
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2016, 09:05:49 PM »

this email just generated more questions and provided no answers.

Not so much. It did give you one answer, it just isn't one that you like.

She is incapable of coming back to you with some vulnerability, acknowledging that she behaved badly, apologizing, and asking you to take her back.

This is at best a quarter-measure... .not even a full half-measure to get you back. (I've got some experience with half-measures myself. I haven't bit on one yet.)

She is capable of doing those things because I have seen her do it before.  You could be correct though but my gut tells me she is not looking for reconciliation here, although I have obviously misjudged her before.  If she has really moved out of the area reconciliation doesn't seem a likely end game here.  This could be nothing more than an attempt to find out if I hate her and once she finds out I don't that will be the last time I ever hear from her.   

I think you are worth a partner who can offer you more than that. I'm pretty sure you know that. Your heart probably hasn't caught up to your head though.

Yes, my head mostly knows this, my heart not so much.  What my head can't rationalize is the inconsistency between the good and bad.  More good than bad leaves me to question if things couldn't have worked out with more effort on both our parts.  I know it is pointless to wonder these things now but I am only human.

While I am fairly confident she does suffer from BPD, with a possible histrionic comorbidity, what I am not confident about is whether or not she can successfully manage it.  A part of my rational mind thinks she might be able to under the right circumstances and a part says the right circumstances will not always be present. 

That said, the issues surrounding these possible disorders were always there and they kept me in a near constant state of fear and anxiety during our relationship, sometimes worse than others, but I think it was always there on some level.  This is something I could not ignore while I was in a relationship with her, the fear and anxiety, and now knowing the likely link to BPD certainly cannot ignore now.  So why do I still want to believe in her?

I have already constructed a short reply that I probably won't send as it very briefly summarizes what I have gone through for the past 8 months and the impact she has had on me.  Not really sure what purpose that would serve other than making sure she knows how much she hurt me.
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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2016, 09:21:15 PM »

C. Stein,

Do you think she can ever know how much she hurt you? My experience with pwBPD is they have a hard time putting themselves in other people's shoes, empathizing truly and deeply. Do you think you have a realistic expectation or hope here?

Both my ex and I are writers. I am a literary novelist, he is a journalist. I see radical empathy as the cornerstone of my craft. I use it it inhabit characters, to feel and see the world through the eyes of others. My ex sees his writing as a way to prove a point. His point.

I don't know your history, but it seems that she had apologized in the past is not the same as truly understanding the depth of her hurt to you.

I worry that hoping for that makes you vulnerable to further hurt from her, if you chose to respond to her.

I think you may be right that she just wants to exonerate herself by taking your temperature. If you don't hate her then she is good to go. That's how my ex is. He took great pride in saying his exes didn't hate him, and he even thought he was friends with many of them. It's a way to avoid accountability.
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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2016, 09:40:03 PM »

there is a silver lining to the fact that you dont know her motivations. if you accept that there isnt a guaranteed explanation (easier said than done) of what she intended, you neither torture yourself with reading a coldness into it, nor speculating that theres more to it. it could be either one. it could be both.

this would trigger and confuse the hell out of me. id go back and forth between both. the shock of the coldness, and telling myself maybe its a means of reconnecting. both are a natural, understandable reaction. it may be difficult to see objectively at the moment: you are free to interpret it either way, or somewhere in the middle. as an outside perspective, my sense is there was a certain amount of baiting you for a reaction; directly replying to your email with no mention, and the obvious expectation of a response. that doesnt mean any guarantee either way if you respond (push or pull) and it certainly doesnt mean you have to bite. if you had no emotional involvement (i know, i know  Being cool (click to insert in post) ) you wouldnt read into it, and youd simply gauge whether the stuff is worth getting back.

my advice? as far as actions go, do that  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2016, 08:33:42 AM »

this email just generated more questions and provided no answers.

This is at best a quarter-measure... .not even a full half-measure to get you back. (I've got some experience with half-measures myself. I haven't bit on one yet.)

Her reply was brief, informative and non-emotional. There is not much ambiguity in her words that could be intented to leave room for various nterpretations.
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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2016, 08:47:17 AM »

Do you think she can ever know how much she hurt you? My experience with pwBPD is they have a hard time putting themselves in other people's shoes, empathizing truly and deeply. Do you think you have a realistic expectation or hope here?

Yes, I do believe she can know but she will never understand.  As many have experienced here, "outsiders" who have never been in a relationship with a pwPD or pwBPD don't understand what we all go through, both during and after, but they can intuitively know by what you tell them and what they observe.

To truly put yourself in someones shoes you need to have walked a similar path to the one you are trying to empathize with.  Anything short of that is just imagination.  Granted some are better at imagining than others.

I don't know your history, but it seems that she had apologized in the past is not the same as truly understanding the depth of her hurt to you.

She has apologized in the past for things she did wrong, although when you don't really believe you did anything wrong then what good is the apology?  What I don't remember her apologizing for is hurting me.  Even the last day I saw her she couldn't say it, but instead said I know you are hurting

She has not once acknowledged any feelings ever existed between us post trash bin nor has she acknowledged any wrong doing at all.   Myself on the other hand have done both on numerous occasions.   The only regret she gave me the impression she was/is feeling was that our relationship was a waste of time ... .I am a waste of time.   You can certainly imagine how deep that cuts. 

I think you may be right that she just wants to exonerate herself by taking your temperature. If you don't hate her then she is good to go. That's how my ex is. He took great pride in saying his exes didn't hate him, and he even thought he was friends with many of them. It's a way to avoid accountability.

This is a good possibility.  How others perceive her is very important to her.  I remember on several occasions her asking me why I loved her and to tell her all the good things I love about her.  She wanted to me to validate she is a good person worthy of love, possibly because she doesn't feel she is. 

there is a silver lining to the fact that you dont know her motivations. if you accept that there isnt a guaranteed explanation (easier said than done) of what she intended, you neither torture yourself with reading a coldness into it, nor speculating that theres more to it. it could be either one. it could be both.

this would trigger and confuse the hell out of me. id go back and forth between both. the shock of the coldness, and telling myself maybe its a means of reconnecting. both are a natural, understandable reaction. it may be difficult to see objectively at the moment: you are free to interpret it either way, or somewhere in the middle. as an outside perspective, my sense is there was a certain amount of baiting you for a reaction; directly replying to your email with no mention, and the obvious expectation of a response. that doesnt mean any guarantee either way if you respond (push or pull) and it certainly doesnt mean you have to bite. if you had no emotional involvement (i know, i know  Being cool (click to insert in post) ) you wouldnt read into it, and youd simply gauge whether the stuff is worth getting back.

my advice? as far as actions go, do that

My first approach to anything is typically to try and look at it objectively.  If this were from a friend I would see this as a thoughtful and considerate gesture to return things to me that she had good reason to believe I would want back.  That said, my gut says it may not be as simple as that and of course there is history here as well.

That doesn't explain the choice of subject line either.  Now perhaps she just chose to "Re:" that email because she thought it would get my attention and I would be certain to read it.   This would be just another example of her being her, not seeing/thinking about the potential impact/consequences of her choices/actions. 

Now if her intent was to let me know she received the email and has nothing to say in return at all then it is cold-hearted slap in the face that borders on cruel.  That email would be hard for anyone to read let alone a borderline.

Knowing her there is the possibility she wants me to know she read it and this email is her checking to see if I might be receptive to anything she has to say about it.  She may simply not want to take the emotional risk of being rejected.  It is not unreasonable to think she feels that anything she says would be rejected ... .so why bother say anything at all.  This would be the kindest interpretation for the choice of subject. 

There are many different ways to look at this email.  I don't believe it is as it appears on the surface but I do question if it goes much deeper than that.

This move, for whatever reasons, became something she wanted to do as our relationship deteriorated.  She came to see me as an obstacle in her path so she removed me.  Whether it is a move in with the replacement or a "clean slate" in a new city with her housemate which just happens to be closer to where my replacement lives ... .who knows.  Now that she has gotten what she wanted I am no longer an obstacle and she feels there is no risk anymore and is open to communication.  She is literally at a "safe distance" now, she got what she wanted.  This view would be consistent with the reasons I believe she had for deceiving me on several occasions. 

As already mentioned she could be testing my temperature to see if I hate her and/or might be receptive to apologies, be they sincere or not.  She is looking for absolution and a clear conscious, nothing more.  This temperature check could also be to see if I can become another one of those ex's that she can use when she needs something.

It could be a combination of all of them, which I can see as a good possibility.

The least likely scenario is she is looking to recycle and she actually cares about me.  The chance of this is so small it might as well not even be an option here.  I believe once she cuts someone out of her life there is no going back for her.  This is consistent with the impression I got from her that she thinks I am a waste of time and space now ... .a dead end.   I have been painted blacker than black with regard to this as it gives her an excuse for what she did.  If she were interested in recycling she would not have moved.


I know this level of dissection and speculation is not getting me anywhere or helping me move forward.  My choices here are simple ... .do I reply or not.  If I choose to reply then it becomes a bit more complicated as what I say will dictate what happens between us from this point forward.

My advice to myself is the choose what is best for me, that choice that helps me heal and move forward from this incredibly painful and destructive experience.

Good advice for sure ... .but I am unsure what is best for me in this case.  So I guess that is why I am here, to try and figure that out.
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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2016, 09:09:59 AM »

The least likely scenario is she is looking to recycle and she actually cares about me.  The chance of this is so small it might as well not even be an option here. 

I said she wasn't capable of the kind of apology you wanted... .I stand corrected, as she has done things like that in the past. Capable or not, she chose not to do so. I'd suggest that the "best" interpretation would be that she's too waifish to admit to it... .

Excerpt
My choices here are simple ... .do I reply or not.  If I choose to reply then it becomes a bit more complicated as what I say will dictate what happens between us from this point forward.

I think the question of what you want comes ahead of the question of what to say (if anything)

Do you want to recycle? [Probably not, and she's probably not interested]

Do you want to become close friends with her someday?

Do you want her as a distant friend / acquaintance?

Do you want to be civil with her should you ever encounter her again?

Do you want her out of your life?

Fill in your own blank... .maybe several possibilities are acceptable, but some preferable to others.

Once you answer this, you will know what you want to communicate to her in an email, if anything.
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2016, 09:16:38 AM »

My choices here are simple ... .do I reply or not.  If I choose to reply then it becomes a bit more complicated as what I say will dictate what happens between us from this point forward.

Perhaps it would make it less complicated, as an actual interaction would leave no room for fantasy that could  easily keep you stuck for months.
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2016, 10:01:45 AM »

I'd suggest that the "best" interpretation would be that she's too waifish to admit to it... .

I agree.  An apology for her would be an admission of guilt and I truly believe she has convinced herself she did nothing wrong.  This is what she needs to believe and it is easier for her to paint me black than accept responsibility for anything.  I have become her scapegoat.

I think the question of what you want comes ahead of the question of what to say (if anything)

Do you want to recycle? (Probably not, and she's probably not interested)

This is a difficult one to answer.  If she did not replace me or have an affair then I might be open to it.  If the timing of this move means she has stabilized her career, this is something we had been working towards from day one of our relationship.  It is something I had come to believe would also lead to stabilizing her inner turmoil and by extension our relationship ... .and we were so close to getting there.  This makes it all the more painful and harder to let her go.

Do you want to become close friends with her someday?

I don't think that is possible with her.  I don't think she has any really "close" friends, except her housemate which is simply a matter of exposure.  She would probably say she does but I believe if you look closely at her friends the relationships are pretty shallow.  At this point in time I cannot emotionally handle being a friend.  I can not watch her live the life we had been working towards for two years.  Regardless of what happened between us there is a part of me that wanted it all to work out ... .to achieve our personal and relationship goals together.  Part of me still wants this even if I know the likelihood of happily ever after is slim under even the best conditions.

Do you want her as a distant friend / acquaintance?

Same as above.

Do you want to be civil with her should you ever encounter her again?



At some point it may be possible, but not until I have reached the point of indifference.

Do you want her out of your life?

I don't know.  I both do and don't.  This would be the reason why I am having a difficult time deciding if I should reply and what I would say if I did.



Perhaps it would make it less complicated, as an actual interaction would leave no room for fantasy that could  easily keep you stuck for months.

Very good point.  
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2016, 11:21:52 AM »

C. Stein. I am sorry to ask you this but did you think about seeing a therapist at this time?
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2016, 11:37:11 AM »

Here's what I'm getting from you about what you want:

You wish you could have something with her, romantic or otherwise.

You don't trust her as a romantic partner because she cheated and/or replaced you immediately.

You don't think she has the capacity to be a close, intimate friend without an enmeshed romantic relationship.

And you are still too full of feelings for her to be comfortable around her while keeping the emotional connection down near zero.

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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2016, 12:39:46 PM »

C. Stein. I am sorry to ask you this but did you think about seeing a therapist at this time?

To what end?  

IMO this forum is a far more valuable tool for healing the wounds incurred from this relationship and for working through the issues I am having at this point.  A therapist is but one point of view and a good chance is one that doesn't include experiencing a relationship with a borderline.   Five months ago I was considering it and probably would have helped, but that time has come and gone.

Here's what I'm getting from you about what you want:

You wish you could have something with her, romantic or otherwise.

She was a meaningful and important part of my life for 2 years.  It is hard to let that go, so yes.  She was a valued friend while we were together and good friends are hard to come by IMO.  Whether she can be that friend again, outside a romantic relationship, is a question only she can answer.  When I asked her if we could be friends again at some point her answer was "I will probably never come back here again".  I don't know if that sentiment has changed nor am I really clear on why coming back here would be a requirement for friendship.

If she can demonstrate her ability to participate in a healthy romantic relationship then that might also be on the table.  One way to do this I suppose would be to participate in a healthy friendship.  Too much time will be required for all this to happen I think. 

She is desperate/obsessed with the "need" for a child and the healthy relationship is not a priority for her, or I fear, even required.  This was my biggest hangup with the whole family issue during our relationship.  It also represents one of my biggest regrets because I never discussed this with her.

You don't trust her as a romantic partner because she cheated and/or replaced you immediately.

I waiver on this but for the most part the answer at this point in time is no I don't but that isn't the only reason.  Perhaps my biggest fear was/is I don't know if she trusts herself and her ability to deceive, not only me but herself.  Also her propensity to act without considering the consequences and then run when it is too hard to face the damage quite frankly scares the living s### out of me, especially when the word "family" is thrown in. 

That said, there is a possibility I could rebuild trust in her but that can only happen with a lot of effort on her part and if she is able to completely trust herself.   She didn't make any attempt to rebuild my trust during the last 6 months of our relationship and I don't know if anything has changed at this point.  The "clean slate" replacement was the easier path for her to walk apparently.  Has anything changed at this point in time I can't say.  Chances are better than not nothing has changed with respect to this.

I know she has the capacity for self-reflection and change and this is the confusing thing about her.  What I don't know is if she has the emotional maturity and strength/desire to sustain the changes she needs to make in order to confront and resolve these issues within herself.  It is this unknown component that keeps me on the fence here.

You don't think she has the capacity to be a close, intimate friend without an enmeshed romantic relationship.

She may be able to ... .she is close with her housemate although there are extenuating circumstances with that relationship.   With me, given the history, I can't say without knowing if she has faced her demons, so to speak.

And you are still too full of feelings for her to be comfortable around her while keeping the emotional connection down near zero.

I am still emotionally vulnerable and raw.  Indifference and acceptance have eluded me to this point, but I am significantly closer to those than I was 4 months ago.  Once I get to that point then I suspect the emotional component will no longer be a problem.  That said, I can't be 100% certain as the emotions surrounding this woman are like none I have ever experienced.
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2016, 10:50:26 PM »

OK, so you sound confused, conflicted, and reluctant to respond to her, and that sounds about right to me.

Besides... .unless you want to make arrangements to pick up that last box of stuff, she didn't say anything that merited a response. So unless you want to deal with the box, don't reply... .until you know what you want, and figure out what you want to say to increase your chance of getting it.
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2016, 09:30:24 AM »

OK, so you sound confused, conflicted, and reluctant to respond to her, and that sounds about right to me.

That pretty much sums it up. 

Besides... .unless you want to make arrangements to pick up that last box of stuff, she didn't say anything that merited a response.

Correct.  This is one of the reasons why I think she wants to hear from me.  She wants to know one way or the other, but all she really needs to know is if I want the stuff back.

So unless you want to deal with the box, don't reply... .until you know what you want, and figure out what you want to say to increase your chance of getting it.

I haven't replied yet and may not.  There are things I want to say but I don't really know how to say them without producing an undesired effect.

One of the things that bothers me the most is her choosing to reply to that particular email without saying anything about it.  Granted there wasn't much to reply to except denying my conclusions and/or show some remorse and apologize.  I can only assume no comment means she accepts everything I said and doesn't feel the need to apologize for anything (eg. I deserved what I got).   You then take this with the reason for email and it gives the appearance she places a higher value on a few insignificant items that she does me.  She had zero problem throwing me away like a piece of trash yet couldn't throw these items away.  Granted I don't think she is capable of being that subtle but the implication is still there.  Perhaps I am reading too much into it ... .or not. 

This week has been a difficult one as I have had to spend a lot of time in locations where her "ghost" is everywhere.  I have found myself remember how good we were together, how comfortable and compatible we were with each other, how much I valued sharing my life with her.   It has generated a great deal of sadness and feelings of loss as well as anger.  Anger for what she did and anger at myself for a variety of reasons.
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2016, 09:37:16 AM »

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I can only assume no comment means she accepts everything I said and doesn't feel the need to apologize for anything (eg. I deserved what I got).

I think the only thing you can actually assume:

This person is not available to 'see' your emotional experience.

Her behavior communicates that.
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« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2016, 09:48:55 AM »

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I can only assume no comment means she accepts everything I said and doesn't feel the need to apologize for anything (eg. I deserved what I got).

I think the only thing you can actually assume:

This person is not available to 'see' your emotional experience.

Her behavior communicates that.

Yes, by all appearances this is true, and I might say see or care.  This is what makes this whole email confusing to me, especially given the finality and coldness of her last communication to me last year.  Why would she even bother as it cracks the door to all those things she has been avoiding like the plague.  It would have been far easier for her to just throw the stuff away.
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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2016, 09:55:00 AM »

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Why would she even bother as it cracks the door to all those things she has been avoiding like the plague.

One possibility:

Her interest is solely about her own feelings.

Maybe... .

Attention seeking to seem desirable

Painting an image towards you of a gal who is moving on, to 'control' your perspective of her.

Soothing her own guilt

Etc.

The painful reality for me with my ex:

My feelings and whole self were often only relevant for how they served his 'needs.'

This was a reality I fought inside me for a very very long time.  

Feeling insignificant is a personal core wound feeling for me.

Do you want to feel significant to her in some way?

Edit: btw, I do still have a tiny part of me that would appreciate being acknowledged by him for having some significance, or some appreciation.  I have not found a 100% resolution of this.

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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2016, 10:12:27 AM »

Yes, by all appearances this is true, and I might say see or care.  This is what makes this whole email confusing to me, especially given the finality and coldness of her last communication to me last year.  Why would she even bother as it cracks the door to all those things she has been avoiding like the plague.  It would have been far easier for her to just throw the stuff away.

Stein, I'll be a little blunt; I think you are reading way too many emotions into this terse email. I understand you have had a long relationship and the feelings you too shared and any normal person could not write an email without it being somewhat emotional. But I don't think this is the case here; it appears to be done.

Take this in point; you and a good buddy have been friends for a long time. He says he is leaving town. He says he has a few things of your at his place (like the book you loaned him, or casserole dish from the BBQ, etc). He is being a friend, letting you know. This is what a normal person would do.

This is what your Ex is doing. She is just letting you know; as from the sounds of this email there is no romantic connection. You are just a person she is informing.

You can't have a history without emotions coming to the service. This is a normal thing. But a pwBPD can separate those emotions in the now (or let them all pour out). They have an uncanny ability to do so.

Try not to read too many emotions into the email. They are not there. She would definitely know how she feels; as wasn't this always the case?

Now, I am not saying you can't steer it that way; but that is not the intent she left here.
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2016, 10:28:21 AM »

One possibility:

Her interest is solely about her own feelings.

Maybe... .

Attention seeking to seem desirable

Painting an image towards you of a gal who is moving on, to 'control' your perspective of her.

Soothing her own guilt

Etc.

These all are possible.

The painful reality for me with my ex:

My feelings and whole self were often only relevant for how they served his 'needs.'

This was a reality I fought inside me for a very very long time.  

Feeling insignificant is a personal core wound feeling for me.

Do you want to feel significant to her in some way?

Yes, this is something I struggle with as well.


Try not to read too many emotions into the email. They are not there. She would definitely know how she feels; as wasn't this always the case?

I am trying not to with exception that only comes from knowing her.  She has never been good at communicating her feelings and would often "hide" those true feelings within seemingly innocuous statements.  It is a very confusing method of communication and one she engaged in frequently, particularly when addressing difficult emotions.



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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2016, 10:41:08 AM »

I was going to chime in and say you are reading too much into the unstated or subtle vague hints (like which email she decided to reply to) until I read this.

She has never been good at communicating her feelings and would often "hide" those true feelings within seemingly innocuous statements.  It is a very confusing method of communication and one she engaged in frequently, particularly when addressing difficult emotions.

And my question for you is how do you think you can have a worthwhile romantic relationship with someone who does this?

You don't know what she's thinking or feeling, or how much it changes from minute to minute. You don't know if you mean anything to her, or what it is.

You do know that she's chosen not to reveal that to you one more time.

This is who she is, and this is the person you are deciding whether it is safe to tell her anything more of what you are feeling.
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« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2016, 11:12:43 AM »

c stein, i dont think its unreasonable to read into the email, or the fact that she chose to send it RE yours. i just dont think you have to. it has no real bearing on how you choose to respond, or not.

if you thought that email was a clear indication that she totally wants you back (you didnt suggest that i know) id take your word for it. whatever you read into it, i suggest treating it literally and taking it at face value.

then decide if you want to respond, or not. and if you do, how (based upon your goal). reading into it may be getting in the way of that decision making process.

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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2016, 11:18:58 AM »

Excerpt
I am trying not to with exception that only comes from knowing her.  She has never been good at communicating her feelings and would often "hide" those true feelings within seemingly innocuous statements.  It is a very confusing method of communication and one she engaged in frequently, particularly when addressing difficult emotions.

Consider a possibility:

You projected an importance into this email before even reading it. (You even desired the email before you got it)

You read it and were deflated, maybe felt insignificant.

You are now projecting secret meaning importance into it

    ... .to still gain a sense of importance.

If this is a possibility... .

Then what an excruciating one it would be!

Anyone would want to deny feeling insignificant when they are seeking such importance.  

It is not even like we are often seeking a 'special importance' but usually a minimal one or simply deserved one.
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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2016, 08:15:30 PM »

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I am trying not to with exception that only comes from knowing her.  She has never been good at communicating her feelings and would often "hide" those true feelings within seemingly innocuous statements.  It is a very confusing method of communication and one she engaged in frequently, particularly when addressing difficult emotions.

Consider a possibility:

You projected an importance into this email before even reading it. (You even desired the email before you got it)

You read it and were deflated, maybe felt insignificant.

You are now projecting secret meaning importance into it

    ... .to still gain a sense of importance.

If this is a possibility... .

Then what an excruciating one it would be!

Anyone would want to deny feeling insignificant when they are seeking such importance.  

It is not even like we are often seeking a 'special importance' but usually a minimal one or simply deserved one.

W.O.W... .that... .^... .
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« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2016, 08:29:15 PM »

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There is no closure here.  Her coldness post trash bin has been one of the things that has stuck with me.  How easy it was for her to replace me and delete me from her life like she never felt anything for me at all.   It is hard to accept that someone who you were/are deeply in love with can throw you away with apparent ease and no remorse, guilt or regret.  That she obviously did not really feel the deep love for me that she claimed to have and I was nothing more than an object to be thrown away when I was no longer useful or needed.

I identify with this SO much. I'm going through the same thing.  My ex reached out  after months of unexpectedly dumping me and blocking my number only to selfishly absolve his own guilt (he wanted to know I was "ok" so he could feel better about dumping me). It escalated to insanity of a phone conversation that was awful and confirmed he did not care at all about my wellbeing, to finally me running into him on purpose. He has 100% moved on.  He has painted me black and discredited and insulted me. He couldn't even look me in the eye.  He told me how much his friends hated me. He told me to stop being obsessed with him.  He told me that he couldn't handle that I wanted a relationship like a ":)isney fairy tale". He told me to get away from him and to let him be happy without me.  He admitted everything nice he said to me was only an act, and I have no idea who he really is.  He has forgotten everything we ever shared and threw me out like garbage. I am so devastated and heartbroken.
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« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2016, 09:15:57 PM »

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Stein, I'll be a little blunt; I think you are reading way too many emotions into this terse email. I understand you have had a long relationship and the feelings you too shared and any normal person could not write an email without it being somewhat emotional. But I don't think this is the case here; it appears to be done.

I second this, only because I did the EXACT same thing when my ex reached out to me via email.  I read so far into it.  I tried to find hidden meaning.  I thought it meant he felt the same as me, and secretly still loved me and wanted a relationship. 

I had to find out the hard way that the most obvious answer- and the hardest to accept- was that there WAS no hidden meaning.  I spend every day trying so hard not to reach out to me, but for him, I was just a passing thought during boredom.  He had to be very blunt with me that it was meant only platonically, he regretted doing it, he just didn't want to 'cut me off' from his life completely but he made it clear that our romantic relationship was now and forever over.  This hurt so much.  I am still reeling from this humiliating reaction.

The truth is, both of our exes have moved on.  If you have ever moved on with an ex, think about how you feel about them.  That is how your BPD partner feels.  We no longer hold importance or priority in their life, because they have shifted their focus on a new target.  If they still had us as a priority, we would know it.  They would still be treating us sweetly as they once did instead of abandoned us.  They don't feel that great, longing pull.  They don't imagine a future with us.  They never really did in the first place- they are not capable of such love.   I'm warning you that if you engage in contact, it will likely only confirm exactly this.  I went through this pain and it was a major, major setback.  People with BPD compartmentalize, justify their actions, and write people off in order to detach easily.   They will never, ever understand us, just like we will never understand them.

The question remains- why do we still love? hope? I wish I knew.  I wish I could give my love to someone who would accept me and love me back rather than my BPD ex.
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2016, 07:54:27 AM »

And my question for you is how do you think you can have a worthwhile romantic relationship with someone who does this?

You don't know what she's thinking or feeling, or how much it changes from minute to minute. You don't know if you mean anything to her, or what it is.

You do know that she's chosen not to reveal that to you one more time.

This is who she is, and this is the person you are deciding whether it is safe to tell her anything more of what you are feeling.

This is all true GK and I am not trying to sugar coat this reality.   I will say that clear and concise communication is something that is difficult at times when emotions are involved, even for the most open, balanced and stable person.  Communication issues can be fixed though.  I gave up trying to fix the communication issues for several reasons.  This is another one of my regrets.

I am trying to decide what to say, if I decide to reply at all.  It is a risk for me, emotionally speaking.  I am trying to be realistic and objective about my feelings and situation here.  She opened the door to communication and it was one she didn't need to open.



Make no mistake here, I am under no illusion she feels anything for me at this point or that I want to reconcile, even if the chance were there which it is not.  On the contrary, she has given me every reason to believe she feels nothing at all for me and is very likely incapable of being in a truly loving and caring relationship built on mutual honesty, trust and respect.   The overall tone of the email says she has "happily" moved on, which of course hurts which may have been her subtle intent here.  I saw this tone as soon as I read the email and I am not trying to overlook that or pretend it says something it doesn't.

She made it abundantly clear last year her feelings for me were not real and they were as disposable as I was.  I honestly believe she has painted me black to the point where I have no redeeming qualities in her eyes, nothing she finds valuable or worthy of her love or time.  I do not think this will ever change.  She has to do this for her own emotional survival and I understand this.

Beyond the very likely attempt to sooth the shame and guilt there is a good possibility this could be a "friendzone" attempt ... .an invitation to be tethered into her "friend" orbit much like her ex before me.  I gave her every reason to believe this was an option in the note I sent her in late December.  This possibility is what I am struggling with here.  One of the things I have had the hardest time with has been becoming the latest ex (in every way) and the emotional pain that distinction brings with it.  It is also difficult because the friend side of her is the person I fell in love with and by extension what I miss the most.

At one point in time I saw a very bright future with her and admittedly has been very difficult to let that go.  It was one of the reasons why I excused a lot of her hurtful behavior.  As with most children I had a dream/vision of my future.  Over the past 30 years of my adult life I have held onto that dream/vision, waiting for the right woman to share it with.  Before my ex there was only one that I even considered sharing that dream/vision with but circumstances and timing were not right.  Eventually I just came to believe I would never find the woman I wanted to share this with.  When I met my ex I truly felt I had finally found the one I would let into this very private and personal dream/vision.  Eventually I did let her in and that dream/vision became our dream/vision.  This wasn't illusion or fantasy as the idealization period was anything but ideal.  I based this on an objective look at the shared beliefs and things we had in common and how compatible we were for a long term relationship.  While it wasn't a "perfect" match, as there is no such thing, it was the closest I had ever come.

Perhaps it is this loss, the loss of the dream/vision and the woman I had finally let in to see and share that with is why I have had such a hard time letting go.  It is probably why I am struggling so much with this email.  At this point in my life I know, if I am being honest with myself, that the chances of finding this again before I kick the bucket are slim to none.  This isn't me being a defeatist but rather just being realistic.

So you all may be asking, what the hell does this have to do with anything?  It is me trying to understand why this seemingly innocuous email has impacted me the way it has and what I want to do about it.


c stein, i dont think its unreasonable to read into the email, or the fact that she chose to send it RE yours. i just dont think you have to. it has no real bearing on how you choose to respond, or not.

if you thought that email was a clear indication that she totally wants you back (you didnt suggest that i know) id take your word for it. whatever you read into it, i suggest treating it literally and taking it at face value.

then decide if you want to respond, or not. and if you do, how (based upon your goal). reading into it may be getting in the way of that decision making process.

I agree with what you are saying and how I choose to interpret the email is entirely my decision ... .take it at face value or not.  It doesn't have to be complicated.

My biggest hangup here is the emotions surrounding this woman.  No reply does not close or open any doors.  It will probably make further attempts to reach out more difficult for her.  A reply could go either way depending on what I say.

Do I risk opening the door a little more?  :)o I want to open myself to be "friendzoned"?  

This is what I struggle with and I am on the fence.  I know without a doubt finding out about her new life will devastate me at this point in time.  Any reply short of slamming the door shut again exposes me to this.  No reply also potentially exposes me to this.  

Consider a possibility:

You projected an importance into this email before even reading it. (You even desired the email before you got it)

You read it and were deflated, maybe felt insignificant.

You are now projecting secret meaning importance into it

    ... .to still gain a sense of importance.

If this is a possibility... .

Then what an excruciating one it would be!

Anyone would want to deny feeling insignificant when they are seeking such importance.

It is not even like we are often seeking a 'special importance' but usually a minimal one or simply deserved one.

This is not a possibility.  My trepidation about this email was entirely about the emotions it would stir up and how those would impact me.  I didn't really desire an email from her in the manner you a speaking of, what I have wanted is Accountability.  

I second this, only because I did the EXACT same thing when my ex reached out to me via email.  I read so far into it.  I tried to find hidden meaning.  I thought it meant he felt the same as me, and secretly still loved me and wanted a relationship.

I'm not looking for that kind of hidden meaning.  There is no doubt in my mind she has no real feelings for me and there is no avoiding this fact.  I have been painted black until the end of time ... .this is just how she is.  This isn't saying I wouldn't like to know she still "loves" me, whatever that means, but I am not secretly hoping or waiting for any such declaration because I know it will never come.  
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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2016, 08:08:17 AM »

Excerpt
It is me trying to understand why this seemingly innocuous email has impacted me the way it has and what I want to do about it.

If what you are seeking is understanding why this has impacted you... .

You need to look inside of you. 


Not towards her.

You need to question and face yourself:

(By the way, much greater challenge to face oneself than another)

What am I longing for?

Because, you can remove her, however the longing remains. (Even if after lots of NC it goes dormant) It may not seem like it, but your desire is independent of her and exists within you without her.  She just helps bring it to your conscious awareness.

This is why self care alleviates our pain better than any external force.  Because ultimately all pain comes from ourselves.

Yet, of course, these are just humble opinions of a mere Sunflower plant.
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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2016, 08:18:43 AM »

I agree with Sunflower you need to look at yourself not towards her, you need to question and face yourself. Don't allow an impaired/distorted brain of a BPD impact you. You know better!
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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2016, 08:19:59 AM »

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It is me trying to understand why this seemingly innocuous email has impacted me the way it has and what I want to do about it.

If what you are seeking is understanding why this has impacted you... .

You need to look inside of you.  


Not towards her.

I am curious why you think I am looking towards her for answers?  She can't provide me with any answers, especially with regard to my own emotions.  What I am trying to do here is understand my emotions so I can make a decision based on rational and logical thought.

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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2016, 09:38:30 AM »

Make no mistake here, I am under no illusion she feels anything for me at this point or that I want to reconcile, even if the chance were there which it is not.  On the contrary, she has given me every reason to believe she feels nothing at all for me and is very likely incapable of being in a truly loving and caring relationship built on mutual honesty, trust and respect.   The overall tone of the email says she has "happily" moved on, which of course hurts which may have been her subtle intent here.  I saw this tone as soon as I read the email and I am not trying to overlook that or pretend it says something it doesn't.

You aren't the first person to say something like this here. I'm sure you won't be the last. In your case, she has pretty much told you this directly. And the mixed messages you've had make it pretty clear that her feelings aren't what you thought they were.

That said, from what I know about pwBPD both direct and indirect, what I'd believe is that she does have feelings for you. Conflicted and complicated feelings. Changeable and inconsistent feelings. But very real ones.

Further, if she didn't feel anything, she wouldn't even be telegraphing little hints at you. She wouldn't be waiting months to reply, but then doing it. You compare your role the way her last ex was when you were together with her. Even if that is true, don't you think she still had some feelings for her last ex?

Excerpt
She made it abundantly clear last year her feelings for me were not real and they were as disposable as I was.  I honestly believe she has painted me black to the point where I have no redeeming qualities in her eyes, nothing she finds valuable or worthy of her love or time.  I do not think this will ever change.  She has to do this for her own emotional survival and I understand this.

Yes, does say things like that... .and she does mean them, and probably believe them too. But even that doesn't make them true at a deep level. If she didn't care about you, she wouldn't bother painting you black. She would treat you the way she treats a total stranger, with disinterest, instead of disdain.

Excerpt
Beyond the very likely attempt to sooth the shame and guilt there is a good possibility this could be a "friendzone" attempt ... .an invitation to be tethered into her "friend" orbit much like her ex before me.  I gave her every reason to believe this was an option in the note I sent her in late December.  This possibility is what I am struggling with here.  One of the things I have had the hardest time with has been becoming the latest ex (in every way) and the emotional pain that distinction brings with it.  It is also difficult because the friend side of her is the person I fell in love with and by extension what I miss the most. 

 I'm sorry that the friend thing isn't likely to work out for you. It really is a tough loss.

What I've seen 'round here is that a pwBPD who tries to be "friends" ends up applying enough push-pull into the friendship that on the pull, it is as emotionally intimate as a romantic relationship was (without the sex), and cycles to being painted black just like happened in the previous romantic relationship.

There may be exceptions, but that does seem to be the rule. (Unless there is a full-on recycle back to a romantic r/s)

And yours sounds uninterested in trying, at least for now.
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« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2016, 09:55:27 AM »

face value: "do you want your stuff back?"

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« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2016, 10:20:43 AM »

S. Stein, I'm curious, if you are okay sharing, what exactly is your dream vision? What about it makes it unlikely you will find another partner that can help fulfill it?

Also, have you considered that her dedication to this vision was as flighty and changeable as her, and hence, she never was the one to go with you in that direction? That you could be chaining your loss to an illusion?

This is sideways to this thread, but it seems to me a crucial part here is your conviction that you will be toes up alone if you let go of this relationship, because no one else will join your dreams of the future. I completely understand that because I am feeling the same. I wonder if part of the challenge here is addressing your own dreams and visions and hope for the future. Not her. If your dream and vision is very unique (you want to find a partner who will live in a yellow yurt and raise donkeys for the rest of your lives) then perhaps you need to consider where your dream itself is realistic.

Our dreams and visions are not immutable. We can change them.
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« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2016, 10:51:16 AM »

You aren't the first person to say something like this here. I'm sure you won't be the last. In your case, she has pretty much told you this directly. And the mixed messages you've had make it pretty clear that her feelings aren't what you thought they were.

That said, from what I know about pwBPD both direct and indirect, what I'd believe is that she does have feelings for you. Conflicted and complicated feelings. Changeable and inconsistent feelings. But very real ones.

Further, if she didn't feel anything, she wouldn't even be telegraphing little hints at you. She wouldn't be waiting months to reply, but then doing it. You compare your role the way her last ex was when you were together with her. Even if that is true, don't you think she still had some feelings for her last ex?

I do understand she once had feelings for me, even love or what she believes to be love.  While it may not have been deep or true love, she probably felt it was at one time and those feelings were very real to her in that moment.  I also understand the most probable reasons why her heart went so utterly cold, why it was so easy for her to let go of her feelings and of me.  I also realize her cold heart and apparent lack of feelings is very real, real to her and real to me. 

Perhaps she does have complicated and conflicting emotions, it is the nature of BPD.  If she finds herself having to replace love with hate for me then I accept her hate regardless of how much it may hurt.  I must do this for myself, to honor and be true to myself and the love I once shared with her.

She may still have feelings for her ex before me, certainly there were some still there at the beginning of our relationship.  According to her he was also the only person to dump her.  She now keeps him in her friend "orbit" because he has something useful to her and he lets her use him for that.  I honestly don't know if it goes any further than that.

Yes, does say things like that... .and she does mean them, and probably believe them too. But even that doesn't make them true at a deep level. If she didn't care about you, she wouldn't bother painting you black. She would treat you the way she treats a total stranger, with disinterest, instead of disdain.

I see the black paint a bit differently here.  She paints me black because it is what she needs to do for her own emotional survival.  It really has nothing to do with me or any feelings for me, I just happen to be the most convenient scapegoat.

I'm sorry that the friend thing isn't likely to work out for you. It really is a tough loss.

What I've seen 'round here is that a pwBPD who tries to be "friends" ends up applying enough push-pull into the friendship that on the pull, it is as emotionally intimate as a romantic relationship was (without the sex), and cycles to being painted black just like happened in the previous romantic relationship.

There may be exceptions, but that does seem to be the rule. (Unless there is a full-on recycle back to a romantic r/s)

And yours sounds uninterested in trying, at least for now.

Yea, this is what I am trying to get a handle on, the potential pros/cons of allowing the door to open a little more or slamming it shut.   Of one thing I am certain.  There is more going on here than simply returning some items to me.  Whether it is malicious in intent or throwing out a tether I am uncertain.  It could be both and it could be neither.  I told her when we exchanged items last year if she didn't want the things I gave her to throw them away.  There was no need for her to return these items to me even if she had reason to believe I would want them back.

face value: "do you want your stuff back?"

I do not care about the stuff ... .so no, I need not reply even though she asked to let her know one way or the other.

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C.Stein
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« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2016, 11:06:13 AM »

S. Stein, I'm curious, if you are okay sharing, what exactly is your dream vision? What about it makes it unlikely you will find another partner that can help fulfill it?

It is a vision of my slice of the "American dream" and of the partner to share that with.  What makes it unlikely that is I'm on the other side of the hill realistically speaking and it took nearly 30 years to find her.  Statistically speaking the odds are not in my favor.

Also, have you considered that her dedication to this vision was as flighty and changeable as her, and hence, she never was the one to go with you in that direction? That you could be chaining your loss to an illusion?

No, this is not the case.  Parts of her vision were the same as mine.  This is what made it so special, and this wasn't a case of mirroring either.   This vision/dream is something she desperately wants ... .even feels she needs.  Her desire for this was anything but flighty and changeable.  If anything it was the most consistent thing about her.

This is sideways to this thread, but it seems to me a crucial part here is your conviction that you will be toes up alone if you let go of this relationship, because no one else will join your dreams of the future. I completely understand that because I am feeling the same. I wonder if part of the challenge here is addressing your own dreams and visions and hope for the future. Not her. If your dream and vision is very unique (you want to find a partner who will live in a yellow yurt and raise donkeys for the rest of your lives) then perhaps you need to consider where your dream itself is realistic.

I won't be toes up alone.  I have people in my life who care deeply for me and I them.   That said it is not the same as someone you romantically connect to on a deep and intimate level. This is what I had with the ex and it was a connection unlike any other ... .BPD hooks aside.
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2016, 01:33:22 PM »

I had the dream vision with my ex, too.  However, I think my mind deceived me into think he actually wanted the same, or was emotionally capable of the same.  When things were good between us, I had never felt happier or more at home.  My love and desire for him never faltered, despite our problems.  Once he saw me for the flawed human being I was, and once I tried increasing the intensity of our relationship (talking about moving in, or going on vacation, etc.), he withdrew, painted me black and bailed.  It was a complete 180 for him overnight.   

My dream with him was very vivid. At times, he told me he wanted the same thing.  It wasn't until that "dream" started to become real that he freaked out and told me that he never wanted any of that, and couldn't possibly imagine being with me long-term.  I think I still care about him only because I am traumatized.  I want my dream back.  I can't imagine putting my heart out there again like I did for him.  I have such intense feelings toward him, it's hard to accept that I am now a non-entity to him. 

As for what you should reply, that is up to you.  But don't expect a reply in return.  I don't think any outcome will result in you feeling better.  I think being friends with her would only serve to torment you.  I  think we need to similarly erase these people from our memories and life in order to move on.  I haven't figured out how to do this yet.  But continued contact makes moving on impossible.
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« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2016, 09:46:08 PM »

Excerpt
I see the black paint a bit differently here.  She paints me black because it is what she needs to do for her own emotional survival.  It really has nothing to do with me or any feelings for me, I just happen to be the most convenient scapegoat.

True, her painting you black has nothing to do with you. However if she had no emotional charge at all left on you, you wouldn't function well as a scapegoat. This is kinda subtle--it both is and isn't about you at the same time... .

face value: "do you want your stuff back?"

I do not care about the stuff ... .so no, I need not reply even though she asked to let her know one way or the other.

Since you don't care about the stuff (the face value question), I suggest you don't answer the face value question.


... .

The most important thing is that you are still sorting yourself out on the emotional/relationship/whatever level, and you aren't ready to respond to her yet there.

Until you are ready with that, I'd suggest no reply at all.
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C.Stein
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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2016, 08:17:46 AM »

The most important thing is that you are still sorting yourself out on the emotional/relationship/whatever level, and you aren't ready to respond to her yet there.

Until you are ready with that, I'd suggest no reply at all.

I agree.  This has brought a lot of emotions to the surface that I had thought were finally fading into the background.  I need to understand those emotions and exactly why I am feeling them before I make any decision here.  If this is a covert "friendzone" attempt I need to decide if I want to be relegated to that role, to allow myself essentially to be used.

One thing this email has shown me is she could not face me for whatever reason.  If her intent was not to hurt me this also shows she still acts without consideration to the impact/consequences of her actions.
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« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2016, 10:15:27 AM »

If this is a covert "friendzone" attempt... .

I'm not going to say impossible, but being "friends" with your BPDex isn't likely to work, and if it does, it will be because you have incredible boundary skills to back it up.

I've seen a reasonable number of people try it here, and cannot think of one case where the push/pull dynamic went away. Assuming the "friendship" lasts long enough to go through a few cycles, it is going to happen. You will be pulled toward intimacy (at least emotionally) beyond what normal friends have if things go well. You will be painted black and ignored/shut out.

Most who tried it ended up badly hurt again... .likely because they bought into the idea that somehow something would be different this time. I can think of one who really accepted it, and even found that if they let their pwBPD run away to nurse his wounds without chasing/blowing up/etc., he would come back sooner and with less stress than what they had done before, and (last I recall) had a rather odd non-traditional friendship that they both valued.

You aren't in a place where that is safe for you today. You may never even want it; I'm not going to guess on that.
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zeus123
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« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2016, 11:32:39 AM »

 Friend zone ? The difference between a lab rat and human, is the lab rat won't return to the same tunnel in his maze, after he finds no nourishment there. We humans are the ONLY organisms that keep returning for more of the same consistently painful outcomes. Slow learners.
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C.Stein
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« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2016, 11:52:27 AM »

I'm not going to say impossible, but being "friends" with your BPDex isn't likely to work, and if it does, it will be because you have incredible boundary skills to back it up.

I've seen a reasonable number of people try it here, and cannot think of one case where the push/pull dynamic went away. Assuming the "friendship" lasts long enough to go through a few cycles, it is going to happen. You will be pulled toward intimacy (at least emotionally) beyond what normal friends have if things go well. You will be painted black and ignored/shut out.

Yes, I see this potential.   I  have confidence that I can enforce boundaries where needed.  I do know she can be a great friend but given the circumstances I fear I would just be used when she needs something from me.  I would be her "friend", it wouldn't be mutual in the sense she could be a friend to me.  The fact she has shown no concern for my feelings post trash bin or offered an apology (sincere or not) does not inspire confidence in me that she can be my friend.  

My personal fear is while I really do miss the friendship I might find it difficult to keep my own emotions where they would need to be, assuming I can get past all these painful emotions that surround the very thought of her right now.  I cannot escape the fact that I do love her in spite of everything and probably always will.  That doesn't mean I can overlook what she has done though, but eventually it will all fade to the background and hopefully with that fading will come indifference.

You aren't in a place where that is safe for you today. You may never even want it

These are both true and I still feel quite conflicted.  Until I can resolve the conflict there will be no reply.
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« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2016, 12:56:37 PM »

Staff only

This topic has reached its post limit. Please feel free to start a new thread to continue the discussion.
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