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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: From Underneath the Rubble  (Read 912 times)
Meili
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« on: June 16, 2016, 04:09:18 PM »

I have been avoiding posting in this section because I'm not sure what to say. Who am I now? That's a tough question for me to answer. Today, I'm a survivor, but I'm filled with self-doubt, self-pity, self-loathing, and emptiness (wait, can a person actually be filled with emptiness? I think that you get what I mean though). I'm working hard to change all of that though.

Cognitively I understand many of the concepts that produce change. When it comes to doing the work to make those changes, however, I allow fear and doubt to control. I have yet to convince myself that I'm actually worth the work that it is going to take. Being in my mid 40's, I also struggle with questioning whether or not the work will be worth it given the amount of time that I have left on this planet.

Anyway, as of today, I'm severely depressed, longing for death (but NOT suicidal), and feeling broken beyond all repair. I am looking at the world from beneath the rubble that has been my life however and know that I don't have to stay here forever. I have a very patient and caring T who allows me to ramble on tirelessly about whatever "crisis" I'm experiencing that day, but manages to reign me back in to do the work necessary. I'm starting to realize that much of my identity has been wrapped up in depression and self-loathing for my entire life.

This is where my journey is beginning... .
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2016, 04:50:24 PM »

Hey Melli, To what extent do you think your feelings are a result of having been close to a person suffering from BPD?  I'm assuming that, since you are on this site, you have been impacted by BPD, right?  Don't underestimate how a pwBPD can bring out feelings of "self-doubt, self-pity, self-loathing, and emptiness," all of which I've experienced and I bet many others here have as well.  Rebuilding from the rubble isn't necessarily a bad thing, in my view, because you have a clean slate to make a new life that corresponds more closely to who you are at the core.  Consider this phase as a journey towards authenticity.  I suggest you sit with your gut feelings and just listen to that voice within which emanates from the heart of who you are, and have always been, as a person.  As Nietzsche puts it, "Become who you are."  Does this make sense?  If not, I will try to re-phrase.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
Meili
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 05:24:39 PM »

Hey LJ,

Well, I believe that I've been impacted by a pwBPD. She's not been diagnosed as far as I know.

I think that my feelings stem more from my FOO than my uexBPDgf. But, I think that having her in my life allowed me to see things that I would never have seen about myself without her. The all of the "self-stuff" was there long before I ever met her. What happened was that I realized just how much I was willing to martyr myself in hopes of someone loving me. The way that she treated me just added to and reinforced what my FOO had taught me.

I will say that I am definitely starting with a clean slate. I'm trying to build the life that I want this time, rather than the one that has been dictated to me. I must sit with my gut feelings to figure out who I am because that's all that I really have to work with at the moment. I doubt the veracity of everything else. Of course, I don't exactly trust myself and my own judgment right now either, so this is going to be hard. But, I have to start somewhere.

I truly hope to become who I am, and who I am meant to be.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2016, 05:58:00 PM »

Like what you're saying, Meili, which I find encouraging.  There's a glimmer of something positive starting to grow, from my perspective.

Sure, your FOO probably made you pre-disposed to a BPD r/s, as did mine.  One good thing about a BPD r/s, in my experience, is that it provides a crucible which forces one to confront one's FOO issues.  It's a painful process, no doubt, but you can't help but emerge with greater awareness about oneself.  I nearly destroyed myself in a 16-year marriage to a pwBPD, so I get it, believe me, when you talk about martyring yourself.  No one will give you a medal at the end of the day for doing your utmost to help a pwBPD, least of all the pwBPD!  There is nothing to be gained, in my view, from trying to help someone who, on some fundamental level, doesn't want to be helped.  To continue to attempt it is pointless and self-defeating.

Excerpt
I truly hope to become who I am, and who I am meant to be.

Right, that's your task, which is not a hope but a journey towards authenticity.

LuckyJim


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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
Meili
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2016, 09:19:45 AM »

Martyring myself always gave me a sense of purpose. I'm tired of that. I want a true purpose. I want someone to be attacked to me because of who I am, not what I can do for her. So, with that in mind, I search for who I am and what I want to become.

I know a few things about myself at this point. I think that provides me with a place to start. I'm intelligent. I'm curious about almost everything. I feel and overwhelming need for constant stimulus. I prefer to do things outdoors rather than inside. I'm good with my hands. I'm sensitive to the needs and feelings of others.

My sense of curiosity and need for novelty are probably going to be my strongest allies through all of this. While I'm depressed and want nothing more than to hide in my house with all the lights off, I cannot stand to just sit there. This forces me to get up and move and not sink too deeply into my own mind.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2016, 10:38:12 AM »

Suggest you get outside.  Take a walk, ride a bike, go to a beach, climb a mountain, meditate outside.  You get the idea.  I'm an outdoor person, too, and find that nature has a healing quality.  Walking also stimulates both side of the brain, which makes for more creative thoughts, in my experience.  Plenty of stimuli in Nature!

You have a good starting point: the qualities you have already identified.  Now use those as the building blocks.  Suggest you take note when you come across something that you really like, something that engages you for some reason, then follow that "golden string" to see where it leads.  It might be a song on the radio, a view from your car window, a person you cross paths with, a painting you see, a flower, a sea shell, whatever, as long as it registers as meaningful to you.  Then delve deeper in order to find out what you really like about that experience.  You get the idea.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2016, 08:31:02 AM »

Hey Meili-

Who am I now? That's a tough question for me to answer.

Yes, and it's a great question.

Excerpt
Today, I'm a survivor, but I'm filled with self-doubt, self-pity, self-loathing, and emptiness (wait, can a person actually be filled with emptiness?

And the good news is all those 'selfs' are yours, you own them, you can control them, you can protect them, you can change them, and no one can influence them unless you say so, yes?  And the good news about emptiness is you can now fill your life up with whatever you want, standing at the gates to keep the crap out; kind of like vomiting and diarrhea, everything leaves at first because it had to, good and bad, and now that we know, we can fill back up with only the good stuff. 

Excerpt
Cognitively I understand many of the concepts that produce change. When it comes to doing the work to make those changes, however, I allow fear and doubt to control.

You ever notice that it's impossible to feel fear and doubt when we're feeling gratitude?  Try it, you'll see.  So what are you grateful for?  Do you have a list?  Eliminating fear and doubt in the moment is literally as simple as focusing on what you're grateful for, and then from that place you can apply the concepts you understand cognitively.

Excerpt
I have yet to convince myself that I'm actually worth the work that it is going to take. Being in my mid 40's, I also struggle with questioning whether or not the work will be worth it given the amount of time that I have left on this planet.

Instead of working on convincing yourself that you're worth it, you could just assume you are, while coming from that place of gratitude, yes?  And really, in our mid 40's we're about half way through life, so think back to your childhood and teen years; doesn't that seem like a long time ago?  You have that much time in front of you.  Yes, you really do.

Plus, what's the alternative?  Several decades is a hell of a long time to spend giving up, your time is much better spent sucking every last drop of juice out of this life until they throw dirt on you, if you say so.  So say so.

Excerpt
I am looking at the world from beneath the rubble that has been my life however and know that I don't have to stay here forever.

Nice!  Plus the good thing about rock bottom is the only way you can go is up, yes?

Excerpt
I'm starting to realize that much of my identity has been wrapped up in depression and self-loathing for my entire life.

Great self-awareness!  And everything we do, we do for reasons that serve us; we are always doing the best we can.  So how did deciding to be depressed and loathing yourself serve you?  What needs were you trying to meet?  How can you now meet them in an empowering way?

Excerpt
This is where my journey is beginning... .

There you go, you're on a journey!  Journeys are fun, yes?  And considering the whole thing at once can be overwhelming, it can be easier to focus on the goal and take one step in that direction, just for today.  So what's the goal?

A bunch of empowering reframes for your use as needed.  Life is heaven or life is hell, if we say so, and we DO have the power to say so. 
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2016, 12:36:34 PM »

I have been avoiding posting in this section because I'm not sure what to say. Who am I now? That's a tough question for me to answer. Today, I'm a survivor, but I'm filled with self-doubt, self-pity, self-loathing, and emptiness (wait, can a person actually be filled with emptiness? I think that you get what I mean though). I'm working hard to change all of that though.

Congratulations for posting here, because it is about you!  I have been hesitant to post here, too. But, I think it means you are taking control of your own life (and all the scary stuff that goes with it.)  one thing I have to remind myself is that I cannot change it all at once.  Setting small goals, breaking something down into very small steps, and accomplishing those steps will eventually get you where you want to be, or at least closer than ever before.  Celebrate the small accomplishments!  You deserve it!  So, if you are on this journey and you just sit down and stay in one place, it ceases to be a journey.  Make small steps toward what feels right to you.  What is one thing you can move toward?

I don't know if this applies to you, but I have had to learn to listen to my instincts and gut feelings more to move toward the life I want. I am not always able to identify my feelings in words, but usually my physical reactions tell me.  Is my stomach tight?  Or do I feel relaxed?   Seems simple, but not if you are used to ignoring yourself.   I have self-doubt, too.  Many times, I have over-ridden my bad feelings about situations, decisions, etc.  to please others.  Now, I realize that it also was my way of avoiding taking control of my own choices - giving control to others.  When you make decisions, or think about choices, do you pay attention to your feelings? 

Kudos, for surviving, for putting forth the effort to change.  Take care and be kind to yourself! 



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Meili
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2016, 07:39:02 AM »

Well, the weekend was a bust. I did very little to be productive and subjected myself to more bad treatment by my FOO because it was Father's Day and I was "supposed to" spend it with them. I did enforce my boundaries and walked out when it started to go down the all too familiar path. I suppose that I should be more proud of that than I am. I hope that changes in time.

As for gratitude, I don't know that I feel that emotion (yet). Currently, I don't feel deserving of anything, so I find it very difficult to be grateful for anything in my life. What I have and protect are things that I have had to fight to get and keep. The rest, I just view as here in the moment and can be taken away in the blink of an eye; gone from my life forever. Of course that may just be because I feel like I'm at rock bottom right now. I will say that I have a sense of gratitude to those who take their time and energy to post to me.

I don't know what the alternative is. To be honest, right now I don't see an alternative. All that I've ever really known is pain and suffering, so I have no reasonable expectation that it will change. I will say that the brief encounter with joy, elation, and love that I had in my r/s with my uBPDexgf has shown me that there is something else out there. That just because she was unable to sustain the feelings that she convened does not mean that it is impossible for someone else to feel that way about me and have it be consistent and sustainable. Nor does it mean that I cannot feel that way about myself. I'm just so tired of that struggle. I'm so tired of trying and getting it all wrong.

In response to the questions about how I decided to be depressed and self-loathing. The answer to those questions would lie in my need to survive as a young child and go along with what I was being taught because there was no alternative. A toddler cannot oppose his parents in any meaningful way after all. Trying to oppose them with any force is just met with more pain.

The question really is why I continue to make those choices as an adult? Again, the answer to that is fear. Opposing those thoughts brings my entire existence into question. It also requires me to face the unknown. Change only occurs when the pain of where we are at is greater than the fear of the unknown. Because I have survived so much, I am tolerant of the pain, this makes facing the fear that much more difficult.

My T asked me to make a list of the needs that my FOO didn't meet and the needs that I was/am looking to my x to meet and compare the two. That should be an interesting exercise. I suspect that the next step is going to be trying to see how I can meet those needs for myself. That will be the hard step. I have kept myself in harmful situations for so long that I don't believe that I can trust even myself at this point.

I do question what Heaven and Hell look like? All that I've ever known is the life that I live, and all that's all that I've seen. I have no reason to believe that anything different exists.

Even the idea about small steps is lost on me. If big "accomplishments" are dismissed by me, how can a small step be meaningful? I have a life that has been devoted to the servitude of others; that's all that I know. So, when I try to look at my life as taking control of it for myself and putting myself first, my gut tells me that I'm wrong; that I am not allowed to do that. I have been completely conditioned to believe that I do not come first in anything, ever. Reprogramming is that is going to be hard.

One thing that I do know is that my recent r/s gave me a gift. I was able to feel things that I want to feel again. I just have to uncover the fortitude to find them.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2016, 11:47:38 AM »

Excerpt
One thing that I do know is that my recent r/s gave me a gift. I was able to feel things that I want to feel again. I just have to uncover the fortitude to find them.

Right, Meili, it is a gift in the sense that you gain a greater awareness of your self.  Could you learn the same lesson in a less painful way?  Probably not, I'm afraid.  The hard lessons are the ones that bring about new growth, in my experience.  You have the fortitude, I'm sure, to find those things again, so just be patient.  Return the focus to YOU.  Listen to your gut feelings.  You get the idea.

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
Meili
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2016, 12:28:41 PM »

I am trying to remained focused on me and to figure out what my needs are. I'm also starting to listen to what my body is telling me. Yesterday, I had someone challenge something that I had said and I immediately got twisted up inside. I had to stop and consciously realize that the person wasn't saying anything about me as a person; meaning that he wasn't rejecting me. He wasn't even telling me that what I had said was wrong; rather, he was viewing something that I had told him from a different vantage point. Instead of arguing the point, I stepped back and listened to what he was actually saying, and it turned out that he was making a very valid point that I hadn't even considered. But, true to form for me, I went back to my office to research what he had said and he was incorrect from my standpoint. But, from his standpoint, based on his definitions, he may still be correct. It was an enlightening experience as a whole.

Also, I managed a small twinge of pride the other day when my mother, at a family gathering, after showering my sister with expensive gifts, started to tell me what a horrible father I am because my daughter didn't thank her for the money that my daughter borrowed, that I deserve to be disrespected for other reasons, and that overall, I'm not good enough I put a stop to it. Later that evening, my sister contacted me and told me that she didn't know what happened, but at least my mother acknowledged that she said something wrong. It wasn't an actual acknowledgment of what happened, simply that she thinks that she must have "misspoke." Per my sister, that's at least a start and better than anything that she has ever received from our mother. I think that it might have meant a bit more if my mother had actually contacted me and apologized. I guess it wasn't that important to her though.

The important thing is that I stopped my mother from repeating the behavior that she has engaged in for so many years. That is a step in the right direction to me.

I'm also starting to forgive myself for the guilt that I feel over what has happened in my most recent r/s. I am starting to come to terms with the fact that I was doing the best that I could with the tools that I had available at the time. I admit that I wasn't perfect, but I did try as hard as I could given what I was working with.

In the past, I've always viewed my tool box as filled with only a hammer, chisel, pry bar, and duct tape. If I couldn't fix things with those items, I just didn't try to fix them. Lately, I'm realizing that I'm still playing with the toy tools that I was given as a child.
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Lucky Jim
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2016, 12:41:40 PM »

Excerpt
Insert Quote I am trying to remained focused on me and to figure out what my needs are.

Hey Meili, Maybe it's time to update your toolbox?  You're doing great by keeping the focus on yourself and your needs.  Suggest you listen to your gut feelings more.  Right, your body is a good barometer of your feelings.  You did the healthy thing, in my view, by exploring why you felt twisted up inside.  By processing it, you moved beyond it, which is progress. 

LuckyJim
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    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
Meili
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2016, 01:12:47 PM »

But, I like my Fisher Price tools!

Just kidding... .I'm working on updating the tool box.

I know the genesis of the gut feeling, it's my fear of not being good enough and being rejected. Rejection equates to abandonment and throws me into survival mode very quickly. It is my trying to protect the 3/4 year old that owns those Fisher Price tools that lives in my head. The one who was left alone, locked in a room for eight hours at a time and beaten for things that he didn't do while in the room.

Well, that and his big brother, my inner critic, who was busy telling me, "See, you're not as smart as you think that you are. You were wrong. You aren't good enough."

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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 02:32:11 PM »

Hi Meili,

I'm sorry to hear that you're suffering.  I also see some useful self-awareness in your original post and responses, and you describe noticing emotional triggers and checking in with yourself about what is really happening for you, and I think this practice will benefit you in the long run.

But, I like my Fisher Price tools!

Just kidding... .I'm working on updating the tool box.

I know the genesis of the gut feeling, it's my fear of not being good enough and being rejected. Rejection equates to abandonment and throws me into survival mode very quickly. It is my trying to protect the 3/4 year old that owns those Fisher Price tools that lives in my head. The one who was left alone, locked in a room for eight hours at a time and beaten for things that he didn't do while in the room.

Well, that and his big brother, my inner critic, who was busy telling me, "See, you're not as smart as you think that you are. You were wrong. You aren't good enough."

I can relate to where you are at.  You can see that the "survival strategies" you developed as a child are not working so well, but at the same time it's difficult to let them go... .they were associated with survival, after all.

Excerpt
The question really is why I continue to make those choices as an adult? Again, the answer to that is fear. Opposing those thoughts brings my entire existence into question. It also requires me to face the unknown. Change only occurs when the pain of where we are at is greater than the fear of the unknown. Because I have survived so much, I am tolerant of the pain, this makes facing the fear that much more difficult.

This "pain of current state > fear of unknown" thing regarding change, is interesting.  You say you have a high tolerance for pain.  I'm not sure if change/the unknown will ever feel completely safe, however, what if you could find a way for it to feel less scary, or safer than it currently does, to the point where you can take risks and notice and "take in" the results?  

This safety could come in a number of different ways.  There are ways to do it with people, and ways to do it on your own.  A trusting relationship with a therapist can generate safety - building this trust can take time, and it sounds like you find your current T helpful, which is good.  Just as a general note though, I will say that not trusting one's therapist (raising the subject with them, and not being able to resolve it to your satisfaction) would be a good reason to switch therapists.

Friends and feeling of community can help too.  I do ecstatic dance and contact improv, and I am starting to make friends and feel a sense of belonging there.  Many people there do their own emotional self-awareness work (and quite a number of them are therapists or bodyworkers of some sort, or have training) and so it is a safe place to talk about emotions.  

Some people increase their sense of safety through self-practices like meditation (learning slowly over time to stay present with intense emotional states) or learning to care for their "inner child".  I find Nonviolent Communication (practiced on myself) useful, and I have my own version of awareness of emotions in the body (similar to Focusing, but influenced by other methods I've been exposed to here and there).  It sounds like you're already doing something similar, too, when you noticed your reaction to what the person at work said to you.

Some authors also recommend that trauma survivors address the physical aspects of trauma through things like yoga (with a trauma-informed instructor), massage therapy, any modality that deals with release of tension or posture alignment.  There's even a therapy called Somatic Experiencing that is designed to help people discharge trauma defense responses from their body.

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eeks
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2016, 02:33:07 PM »

(continued)

Right now, it sounds like you have a fast and strong self-protection reflex that kicks in to protect you from the perceived danger of abandonment.  You describe being locked in a room and beaten for things you didn't do, and I imagine this greatly impacted your sense of safety, security and trust (which children require). There would have been certain feelings and behaviours on your part that triggered ignoring, punishment and/or abuse from your caregivers, and you would have "learned" that those feelings and behaviours put your relationship with your caregivers at risk.  (In Wired for Love, Stan Tatkin explains that threats to a relationship bond trigger the amygdala the same way physical pain does, even in adults.)  



And so, there are certain feelings and behaviours that reflexively trigger a feeling that you are not safe, invoking the self-protection strategies.  My experience is that if I investigate, I find I don't actually believe I'm worthless (even if I feel it)... .for me "I'm worthless" is more like a failsafe, designed to scare me out of doing things that were repeatedly traumatic in the past.

What I think can happen over time is that through revealing the "dangerous" feelings to your therapist, and maybe to trusted friends as well, and learning to tolerate/stay present to these same intense emotional states in yourself, you will begin to learn that you can feel and behave certain ways and it does not put your relationships at risk the way it would have in childhood.  You will increase your acceptance of yourself, and of your experience.  

I should add that I have observed that I experience anxiety as reflexive self-protection from the following "dangerous" feelings... .anger, sexuality, strength, anything exceeding a certain degree of joyful aliveness.  

Huh?

Yep. My mom's father likely had NPD, and my dad's father may have as well, (and both their mothers had/have their own style of controlling others) there were for sure narcissistic dynamics in their families and less severe narcissistic dynamic once it got down to how they raised me, but it was still there.  So my parents are both survivors of emotional abuse, and my mom was sexually abused as well (by a family "friend".  It would not have been safe for them to have a strong "sense of self" around their parents (e.g. my mom's father would slap her if she ever disagreed or said "no"; my dad could not do anything right according to his father)  So they feared and censored the same in me.  Something else to keep in mind, that what's behind the fear is not always negative.

eeks
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2016, 02:55:30 PM »

Thank you for that response eeks. I will reread it and give it more thought. Also, thank you for the suggestions.

My initial response is:

I am working on developing a sense of community and forging friendships. Isolation is all too familiar to me and provides a feeling of safety however. Which is somewhat strange given my intense fear of being alone. But, by not putting myself out there, I also don't run the risk of being rejected.

My cognitive mind knows that rejection won't kill me. Also that when someone first meets me, they aren't rejecting me (as a person), but, rather what they perceive me to be. Now, I just need to get the emotions to follow the cognitive thoughts there.

The pain vs. fear thing in regards to change is something that I struggle with right now. I know, on a cognitive level, that nothing bad will likely result from my changing anything. I also know that I get paralyzed by fear and "what if's." I invent problems in my mind that are not in existence, and will likely never exist. I also engage in black and white thinking at that point. It is as if any choice I make is permanent and the results are going to be catastrophic. No matter how hard I try to convince myself that nothing is actually permanent, or that I am no longer that young child who risks physical pain if I make the wrong choice or do or say the wrong thing; I am still controlled by the fear. I am trying to work on minimizing the fears however. I'm trying to remember that I've survived this long even though I'm not perfect, I'll continue to survive for a while longer.

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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2016, 09:37:52 AM »

Loneliness... .That's not a good place for me. Last night I discovered just how strong that fear is. I always knew that it had a lot of control over me, but didn't realize just how much until last night.

Yesterday was the first day that I have been completely alone since my x and I split. Sitting in my empty house, with no one to be accountable to, I gave into my impulse to contact her. I'm not sorry that I did. You can read about it in my thread on the detaching board if you are interested.

I need to learn that being alone isn't the same thing as being abandoned. Of course I understand that in a cognitive sense, but the emotions don't agree. Something that my therapist told me is that I don't have to give in to my compulsive, emotional urges. I need to learn that better.
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2016, 09:52:51 AM »

I need to learn that being alone isn't the same thing as being abandoned.

Interesting choice of words; why do you think you equate those two, where does that come from?  And being alone and being lonely are two different things too.  You also say no one to be accountable to, but we're accountable to ourselves when we're alone, and that can be a great time to start living from our values, be accountable to our values, without external input for the time being; that's a great place to build a life from.
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2016, 10:05:23 AM »

I'm guessing that it comes from being locked in a bedroom alone for 8 hours at a time when I was 3/4 years old while my mother went on with her life.

I agree that we are always accountable to ourselves. I also agree that I need to learn to take those opportunities to learn and grow. Last night was a mix of too much alcohol and too many emotions.

I felt both lonely and alone. I felt that I didn't matter to anyone, as if I didn't exist. I reached out to my x to prove that I do exist. If that makes any sense.
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2016, 11:41:03 AM »

I'm guessing that it comes from being locked in a bedroom alone for 8 hours at a time when I was 3/4 years old while my mother went on with her life.

I'm sorry that happened, and yes, that's not a guess, that's the reason you equate the two.  And knowing that is the good news.

I agree that we are always accountable to ourselves. I also agree that I need to learn to take those opportunities to learn and grow. Last night was a mix of too much alcohol and too many emotions.

I felt both lonely and alone. I felt that I didn't matter to anyone, as if I didn't exist. I reached out to my x to prove that I do exist. If that makes any sense.



Oh yes, been there more than once, the booze seems to help in the short term, don't in the long, and at times we just don't care yes?

Yes, reaching out to your ex makes sense; we're social creatures and our design to connect is inherent and strong, exactly the right impulse when you're feeling lonely and alone.  Only issue is she might not be whom you want to be reaching out to.  What can you do today to connect with someone other than her?  Anyone, about anything?  We get better at everything we practice.
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2016, 02:39:23 PM »

I'm sorry that happened, and yes, that's not a guess, that's the reason you equate the two.  And knowing that is the good news.

I know that a lot of my fears are tied directly to my childhood and FOO. I'm just now starting to learn to attach the emotions to the events. The events themselves do not illicit any emotional response from me when I think or talk about them. Those apparently have been blocked. But, the subconscious reactions are becoming more apparent as I slow down and watch what I'm doing.

Oh yes, been there more than once, the booze seems to help in the short term, don't in the long, and at times we just don't care yes?

Yep. I knew not to drink that much. As I opened the third beer and started to ruminate, I knew that I should stop there. The pain grew... .the urge to blunt the sharpness of it all grew... .the more prominent the silence became... .the more I drank. The normal 'numbing effect' didn't arrive though. I became consumed by urgency and fear. My panic became overwhelming. I felt that I must release the tension, so I did.

I won't dispute that reaching out to her was probably not in my best interest. But, at the time, I was in such a state that I didn't believe that anything or anyone but my x could stop what I was experiencing. And, it did. But, just like the alcohol, it was not a healthy way to deal with the situation. In retrospect, had I just sat with the pain and fear for a bit, it probably would have subsided on it's own. I probably fueled all of it by (ultimately) drinking a twelve pack of beer.

There are other similarities between my addiction to beer and my addiction to my x, both leave me feeling horrible once the intoxication has worn off. Both make me want more. Both make me scared when I think about having to give them up for the rest of my life. I know that this isn't a shock to anyone who has experienced addiction.

So, tonight, I'm going to look at finding a better coping mechanism.

Yes, reaching out to your ex makes sense; we're social creatures and our design to connect is inherent and strong, exactly the right impulse when you're feeling lonely and alone.  Only issue is she might not be whom you want to be reaching out to.  What can you do today to connect with someone other than her?  Anyone, about anything?  We get better at everything we practice.

I have been struggling with that lately. My T and I discussed this a bit today. Aside from my mother, no one else in my life seems to make me feel alive like my x did. That's why I am so attached to her. I am so familiar and comfortable with the emotions that are created when I interact with her that it provides a level of comfort that I don't find elsewhere. 
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2016, 02:54:34 PM »

In retrospect, had I just sat with the pain and fear for a bit, it probably would have subsided on it's own. I probably fueled all of it by (ultimately) drinking a twelve pack of beer.

There are other similarities between my addiction to beer and my addiction to my x, both leave me feeling horrible once the intoxication has worn off. Both make me want more. Both make me scared when I think about having to give them up for the rest of my life. I know that this isn't a shock to anyone who has experienced addiction.

So, tonight, I'm going to look at finding a better coping mechanism.

Good plan.  If you think you have a problem with alcohol, you probably also noticed that once the buzz wears off our body overcompensates from all the depressant by making us alert, so we're wide awake at 4 in the morning at the start of a hangover; that is hell on earth.  And then, we can be anxious and antsy the next day, another biological consequence of alcohol withdrawal, which sucks and makes us want to drink again, the vicious cycle.

If we look at the whole thing, the emotions before, the buzz, the sleepless nights, the anxiety when we're sober, it makes no sense and is certainly not a solution.  My experience is 21 days; if you can make it 21 days without a drink you're over the hump, not that long at all, then you can get to work creating the life of your dreams yes?

Aside from my mother, no one else in my life seems to make me feel alive like my x did. That's why I am so attached to her. I am so familiar and comfortable with the emotions that are created when I interact with her that it provides a level of comfort that I don't find elsewhere.  

Yes, I get that, that uncanny knack of someone who's survival literally depends on attaching to others, how good it feels when they come our way.  We've all experienced the other side of that though, that addiction and all the rest, not quite worth it as a whole.

But you know what's fun?  Go to a coffee shop or the supermarket, anywhere where you normally live your life, and see if you can get people you interact with to smile, and bonus points would be laugh.  It can be challenging, you gotta see where they're coming from, develop rapport, and say something they'll find funny or nice, and if you do that, you'll feel good, just because.  You've connected with another human in a positive way, and it's not about what you're getting, that's secondary, it's what you're giving, which will make you feel good, promise.
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2016, 03:14:54 PM »

But you know what's fun?  Go to a coffee shop or the supermarket, anywhere where you normally live your life, and see if you can get people you interact with to smile, and bonus points would be laugh.  It can be challenging, you gotta see where they're coming from, develop rapport, and say something they'll find funny or nice, and if you do that, you'll feel good, just because.  You've connected with another human in a positive way, and it's not about what you're getting, that's secondary, it's what you're giving, which will make you feel good, promise.

Just reading that caused my anxiety to sky-rocket!

Years ago, I had to stop drinking because it had gotten out of control. I, honestly, believe that giving up alcohol will be far easier than completely giving up my x. What I do know, however, is that by giving up alcohol, I'll be far better equipped to completely give up the x. What I have been doing certainly hasn't been working!

I also know that my anxiety will likely decrease with sobriety. My T wants me to go to AA to get out of my house, sober up, meet people, realize that I'm not alone in the world, and increase my chances of recovering from all of the things that have happened to me. She's a smart lady that T of mine. Now, if only I didn't find AA so annoying... .(Yes, I realize that I'm just making an excuse so as to not face the fears. One step at a time).
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2016, 04:33:03 PM »

Just reading that caused my anxiety to sky-rocket!

And that's where you are right now, no worries, we don't have to go from 0 to 100 overnight, just go for 0 to 1.  Plus remember, you just drank 12 beers last night, probably a big chunk of the anxiety.  And just focusing on other people and where they're coming from will get you focusing out instead of inwardly, which is a lot of the challenge.

Now, if only I didn't find AA so annoying... .(Yes, I realize that I'm just making an excuse so as to not face the fears. One step at a time).

AA is a great way to get sober, not a great way to stay sober IMO, and it's not the only way, but you don't have to do anything but show up, and a highlight can be going out for coffee with other members after the meeting, which is a good idea right now yes?

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« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2016, 04:38:58 PM »

Yes. And, as soon as I pull myself together a bit more I'll venture out.
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2016, 08:45:22 AM »

I've has some amazing realizations over the past few days and communication with my x.

First, I've learned that love can exist for no reason other than the person exists. There is no requirement that love be tied to some action or trait. In fact, it's better that it isn't. Actions and traits can change over time, be inconsistent, evolve, or even temporarily set aside because of other life issues. If love is based on those things and they change, then the love is changed or goes away.

Secondly, I've been able to see myself as worthy. I've been able to recognize that people in my world find me worthy no matter how off-kilter I get because of my choices. They have not turned their backs on me because I did something different from what they would have preferred.

Third, I'm not alone. There are people that I can reach out to in a healthy manner.

Fourth, I've made some really, really bad choices lately. That doesn't mean that I'm a bad person, but that my choices were bad. Some I may be able to make amends for, others I won't. There are consequences to our actions though. I just have to accept that.

Finally, I've realized that I've been hiding from my own pain and fears for so long that I never learned how to focus on myself. OK, I kinda knew this one, but I had no idea to what extent I would go to avoid dealing with myself.
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« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2016, 01:52:36 PM »

Nice Meili!

Compare what you just posted to what you posted 10 days ago:

Today, I'm a survivor, but I'm filled with self-doubt, self-pity, self-loathing, and emptiness

When it comes to doing the work to make those changes, however, I allow fear and doubt to control. I have yet to convince myself that I'm actually worth the work that it is going to take. Being in my mid 40's, I also struggle with questioning whether or not the work will be worth it given the amount of time that I have left on this planet.

Anyway, as of today, I'm severely depressed, longing for death (but NOT suicidal), and feeling broken beyond all repair. I am looking at the world from beneath the rubble that has been my life however and know that I don't have to stay here forever.

I'm starting to realize that much of my identity has been wrapped up in depression and self-loathing for my entire life.

It's amazing how fast change can happen yes?  I'd venture to say that you did it by looking at some core beliefs, choosing other, more empowering ones, reframing and choosing what to focus on, valuable for all of us, and good for you!
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« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2016, 04:17:17 PM »

Thank you. Yes, I actually applied the empirical evidence at hand to what I believed to be true.

I had to do something very difficult for me today. I had to put my feelings before those of someone who has been my crutch for many years now. I had to cut someone out of my life that I have relied on for a long time. But, I was relying on her for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't fair to her. It wasn't fair to me. It wasn't fair to my x when we were together.

She wasn't as good for me as I always thought. She was using me. I was using her. I hid from all my problems in life behind her. I never will truly face my issues as long as I had the opportunity to ignore them and devote myself to her problems. I had rationalized the behavior for a very long time.

I kept this woman close to me through the last third of my r/s with the x. She was a place for me to hid and would give me ego kibble when my x wouldn't. So, no matte how hard my x begged and pleaded, I refused to let go of the other woman. I used to lie about it. I stopped doing that and instead held it right in front of my x's face; completely disrespecting her. FTR, the other woman was a platonic thing, but that doesn't make my behavior any more justified.

So, for the first time in life that I can remember, I'm alone. I'm truly starting from scratch. No real friends that are just mine. No one to hide behind. No one to protect me. No one to control me. Just me.

I'm back to being completely scared, but know that I am a skilled problem-solver and that I can do this.
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2016, 04:30:50 PM »

I had to do something very difficult for me today. I had to put my feelings before those of someone who has been my crutch for many years now. I had to cut someone out of my life that I have relied on for a long time. But, I was relying on her for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't fair to her. It wasn't fair to me. It wasn't fair to my x when we were together.

So would you agree that this is a ripple effect of your relationship with someone with a personality disorder, someone who gives us a wake-up call, the gift of the relationship, and it ripples through our lives for the better later?

So, for the first time in life that I can remember, I'm alone. I'm truly starting from scratch. No real friends that are just mine. No one to hide behind. No one to protect me. No one to control me. Just me.

And a perfect place to create and build the life of your dreams from, a fresh start, yes?

I'm back to being completely scared, but know that I am a skilled problem-solver and that I can do this.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2016, 04:49:01 PM »

Yes, I completely agree about the ripple effect. Even as I was breaking-up with the x, I told her something to the effect of "Thank you for helping me learn so much about my life, what I truly want, and what I need to change." Now, I will add the caveat that we must be willing to accept the gift and do the work for the change. My x was a beautiful, exciting, interesting and wonderful woman in most respects. I want to be able to attract a healthy woman like that, so I must become a healthy man in order to do that.

Yes. I have not only been examining my r/s with the x, but with all my exes. I'm looking at the things that I liked about each one. I'm also looking at the things I gave up to have them. The hope is to figure out how to give myself the good without having to accept the bad.
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« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2016, 12:12:28 AM »

In my research about codependency today, I was reading about caregivers mistaking feeling needed as love. This is, if I understand correctly, because they don't believe that they are lovable.

Why this is important to me has to do with my refusal to give up my friendship with my previous ex while with my uBPDexgf.

At some point, I stopped feeling that my uBPDexgf needed me. Well, other than for someone to keep her company when bored and blame things on. I had even told her that I felt that our r/a was in name only.

The other ex was going through a bad time in her life, and I felt needed by her. For me, it was about fulfilling my need to feel important and worthy. Like I meant something in the world.

This is important to me because each and every time my uBPDexgf asked why I kept running back to the other ex to talk, all that I've been able to tell her is that I felt safe talking to her. But, I've never been able to explain what felt safe. It might be that I felt safe because I felt needed.

In true codependent fashion, that feeling safe turned into feeling used though.
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« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2016, 07:27:41 AM »

In my research about codependency today, I was reading about caregivers mistaking feeling needed as love. This is, if I understand correctly, because they don't believe that they are lovable.

Yup, I can relate to that, that's the feeling of "addiction" many of us have in and after these relationship; real love feels warm and mellow, chasing a need feels chaotic and tense.

And to expand, a 'codependent' feels they aren't inherently lovable, aren't lovable just the way they are, they have to DO something to be loved, instead of just be loved, be love.  There's a reason for that, that goes back a long way, long before we met our exes, and digging there is fruitful, probably goes back to the way we were raised and how it felt then, and it's not necessarily our 'parent's fault', it's the way the whole dynamic fit together; someone can love us a great deal, but if it's not in a way that we can feel, because of the way we're wired, we won't feel loved.

Digging there can be fruitful, and once we get a sense of what went on and what's going on, then what?  For me it's a simple as fully associating to the belief that I am inherently lovable, just the way I am, simple as that.  And we've got very old wiring that will try and negate that, so we get to insist on that belief with extra vigor, and look for references to support it.  I started with my dogs, they love me no matter what, and why is that?  Because I'm inherently lovable, just ask them.  But taking that out into the world, it's a sea change; if someone isn't going to love me for who I am, I need to first counter the inevitable, automatic feeling that I need to do something to gain that love, I get to just be lovable, and coming from that place there are some people who really need to be removed from my life, my ex being one, she wasn't capable of real love, not her fault, but she wasn't, sad, but there's no room for that in my life.

And when we take that stance, carry ourselves like we're inherently lovable, because we say so, everything changes.  And then folks show up who consider themselves inherently lovable too, and there's an understanding.  And someone who is inherently lovable does not need to put up with the sht they may have previously, because the belief system they were running required it, and then we can come to the realization that our relationship with a borderline may not have been necessary to get where we are, but it sure sped up the process, and for that we're grateful.  What if everything happens for a reason and it serves us?
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« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2016, 07:57:10 AM »

Yeah, I had the realization a few days ago that I am worthy of love just because I exist. By that I mean that I don't have to earn love. I am lovable just the way that I am without the need to change or do anything special. It was both liberating and sad. There have been so many hurts perpetrated and received by me as a result of my old beliefs.

I'm trying not beat myself up about the wrongs that I've committed that I cannot change; just accept that they happened and learn from them. We often talk about the wake that is left by pwBPD, I've done the same. Good, well-meaning, and loving people have hurt because I didn't understand what was going on. I truly hope to never be like that again.

My r/s with my uBPDexgf was definitely a gift to me. When I started down my path of self-realization while we were still together, but fighting, she would sarcastically tell me something to the effect that she was so glad that she suffered so much to make me a better person for the next woman. It makes me sad that I cannot share all of this with her.
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« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2016, 12:45:05 PM »

Excerpt
I am lovable just the way that I am without the need to change or do anything special.

Right, Meili, you are worthy, just the way you are.  You were born worthy.   Idea

Suggest you ponder the concepts of self-love and self-acceptance as corollaries to your worthiness.  Hint: If you love yourself enough, you will never allow yourself to be the object of someone else's abuse again.  Yet a lot of us Nons, me included, seem to think on some level that we deserve to be treated poorly.  Not so!  Took a long time for me to wrap my head around this concept.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2016, 04:11:03 PM »

Self-love, I'm struggling with, but not giving up.

Self-acceptance is a bit easier. I'm starting to accept myself for who I am, change the things that I am seeing need to be changed and accept the rest.

Self-soothing and self-validation are other biggies for to tackle. I'm getting better with those. Practice makes perfect!

Speaking of validation, that's something else that I've discovered today that I need a lot of work on. I always thought that when not in a state of panic, I did a decent job of validating others. But, learning more about it, I'm not as good as I thought. I'm happy that I discovered that so that I can work on changing the behavior.

I can see numerous examples of where I was invalidating to my x. There were so many times that she would try to express her feelings and I'd shut her down quickly and efficiently. She even tried to tell me that and I argued. I'm glad that I can see it now and have a chance to work on it so that I don't continue to carry those behaviors into my future.
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« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2016, 03:08:54 AM »

Coming through the FOG has been an interesting and exciting journey. I would even dare to say that the pain has been worth all of it because it was necessary to catapult me out of the rut that I have been in for so long.

I am scared, at this moment, about all of my new changes. They are still little more than saplings trying to take root. Each day they grow a tiny bit deeper into the core, but still have a long journey to go before they actually become a stable foundation. If a storm like the one that produces the FOG were to return, I fear that they would all wash away in a devastating flash flood. I am attempting to build barriers to protect the seedlings, but my tools still seem to be inadequate and my workers lazy and working against me.

My inner critic is loud tonight. He woke me up screaming at me about how I'm going to destroy all of the work that I've done because that's what I do. He has been reminding me how weak I still am, and has been trying to convince me that none of what I'm seeing happening "to" me is real. He's still telling me that, in spite of all the empirical evidence to the contrary, I'm not worthy of all the kindness, attention, and effort others have been showing me.

I know that this is a result of the loss that I'm feeling, but that is of little comfort at this moment. Another major player in this is that I had a great day today. But, my inner critic is telling me that the day, and everything that happened, was all just the result of people being fake and nice. He is also telling me that none of the people that I communicated with were doing anything more than humoring me.

If I had to venture a guess, I would have to say that it is the result of my x triggering my fear of rejection issues. It's funny how one person's actions (or lack there of as is the case today) can override the kindness of a host of others.

But, I suppose that if I'm completely honest with myself, it has nothing to do with her. It's my own inner voices that are working against me at this moment. It is my wanting so desperately to win the approval of someone that I'll never be able to get it from that is telling me that I'm unworthy.
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« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2016, 11:16:53 AM »

Excerpt
It is my wanting so desperately to win the approval of someone that I'll never be able to get it from that is telling me that I'm unworthy.

Hey Meili, The only person you need approval from, needless to say, is yourself.  Whether someone else may approve or disapprove of you is largely out of your control so it's best to let go of that outcome.

My Inner Critic is often wrong, I've noticed, so I suggest you take yours with a grain of salt.  Certainly the Inner Critic has nothing positive to say.

I disagree about those saplings you mentioned, which I predict will stay rooted.  FOG is much less effective when you see it coming a mile away.  In my view, poison is harmless, if you don't ingest it!

LuckyJim
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« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2016, 11:26:59 AM »

I certainly hope that you're right about my saplings!

Each day seems a bit better. I feel a bit stronger. I think that you're right about the FOG.

Much of this is still confusing to me. By "this" I mean all that is going on inside me as I start to peel back the layers of my life. I'm not scared to look at it anymore though. I'm actually really enjoying doing what comes naturally to me without bowing to my own fears.
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« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2016, 02:26:51 PM »

I had interesting conversations with both my uBPDexgf and T today (separately of course). Both asked me why I continue to do things that are harmful to myself in the sense that they are contradictory to what I say that I want in my life.

After much babbling, I finally figured it out; codependency. I put the wants and needs of others before my own. I don't say to things that I should. I do things that I don't want to do because I don't allow the other person to own their own emotions. I try to protect them from their emotions by giving them what they want. I hurt myself in this process. Often times, the other person ultimately gets hurt worse.

The biggest thing that was a trigger for my x was the result of my not being able to say no to another person because I didn't want to hurt that person's feelings.

Then, later, when my x and I were talking about reconciling, the part of the codependency that keeps me terrified of being alone kicked in and I reached back out to the very same person that triggered my x to begin with, thus killing all hope of reconciliation efforts.
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« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2016, 03:57:01 PM »

Excerpt
After much babbling, I finally figured it out; codependency. I put the wants and needs of others before my own. I don't say to things that I should. I do things that I don't want to do because I don't allow the other person to own their own emotions. I try to protect them from their emotions by giving them what they want. I hurt myself in this process. Often times, the other person ultimately gets hurt worse.

Hey Meili, Join the Club!   Idea
I suspect most Nons (including me) have codependent tendencies, otherwise they wouldn't put up with a pwBPD.  You hit the nail on the head.  Care taking someone else is a way to avoid caring for oneself, in my view.  Yet once you recognize your own codependent tendencies, it's possible, quite possible in my experience, to change one's behavior.  This may sound trite, but now I consciously ask myself if something is actually "my problem"; if not, then i don't take on the additional burden.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2016, 04:17:00 PM »

I knew that I had codependency tendencies that caused me to make poor choices. What I didn't know was to what extent I was willing to damage my own world for the sake of temporary comfort for others.

Now I find myself in a bad spot where I've hurt two people that I truly care about. One or the other (or, possibly both!) will have to continue to be hurt. This is way more than my fragile saplings are ready to handle.

But, I'm sure that I'll take it in stride and not beat myself up too much about it. What's been done is done. The question becomes how much more damage and I willing to do?
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« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2016, 05:53:05 PM »

The question becomes how much more damage and I willing to do?

Or it could become how much healthier am I getting today, yes? 

You and I were talking about Pete Walker, and one thing he mentions victims of trauma do is abandon themselves, and the way out of that is to focus on self-protection and not self abandoning.  Codependency, putting someone else's needs ahead of our own, and not only that, taking on the identity of being the caretaker, fixer, enabler, for someone else as way to get our needs met, is also abandoning ourselves, while still getting our needs met in a backhanded way.

So what if we didn't do that?  What if we learned to self-validate so we don't need to seek external validation, what if we built and protected good boundaries with a fierce determination to not abandon our needs for someone else?  And in my case, what if we practice slowing down and feeling, instead of running and thinking, and settle into ourselves and our feelings and stay centered, no matter what.  So look at us: internally validating, protecting ourselves, staying centered, being instead of doing; that's a great place to build a life from, and coming from that place we'll know who to let in and who not, and we'll attract folks who are living the same way.  Oh yes, sign me up!
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« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2016, 09:12:54 AM »

Excerpt
What if we learned to self-validate so we don't need to seek external validation, what if we built and protected good boundaries with a fierce determination to not abandon our needs for someone else?  And in my case, what if we practice slowing down and feeling, instead of running and thinking, and settle into ourselves and our feelings and stay centered, no matter what.  So look at us: internally validating, protecting ourselves, staying centered, being instead of doing; that's a great place to build a life from, and coming from that place we'll know who to let in and who not, and we'll attract folks who are living the same way.

Like what you're saying there, from H2H, to which I subscribe!  I would add letting go of the outcome and learning to allow things to unfold naturally, the way they are supposed to.  Making my life a journey towards authenticity.  Listening to my gut feelings.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2016, 09:32:31 AM »

A few days ago, I would have said that I agree with all of that and that I've already started to practice it. While I still agree with all of it, I've only been practicing it in some ways. In others, I have failed miserably. Learning experiences those are.

I've never understood the "listen to your gut" suggestion. When so much of a person's life is filled with anxiety, their gut tends to lie to them. Like when people first come to these boards, they are filled with fear and anxiety. They want nothing more than to ease their pain. Their gut is telling them to frantically hold on to every molecule of what is left of their r/s (I still fall into this category from time to time btw - this is one of them). Their gut is screaming at them to do something that is contrary to what is healthy.

A recent episode in my life:

The biggest thing that was a trigger for my x was the result of my not being able to say no to another person because I didn't want to hurt that person's feelings.

Then, later, when my x and I were talking about reconciling, the part of the codependency that keeps me terrified of being alone kicked in and I reached back out to the very same person that triggered my x to begin with, thus killing all hope of reconciliation efforts.

Is a prime example of why I cannot trust my gut. My gut told me that I was in danger and I reverted back to the one thing that would destroy what I was trying to accomplish.

This is the first morning that I haven't heard from my x in over a week. My gut is screaming that I should reach out to her. But, I know that it isn't the healthy choice.

Listening to my gut makes me reactionary. I want to be proactive in my life.
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« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2016, 10:23:33 AM »

I've never understood the "listen to your gut" suggestion. When so much of a person's life is filled with anxiety, their gut tends to lie to them. Like when people first come to these boards, they are filled with fear and anxiety. They want nothing more than to ease their pain. Their gut is telling them to frantically hold on to every molecule of what is left of their r/s (I still fall into this category from time to time btw - this is one of them). Their gut is screaming at them to do something that is contrary to what is healthy.

Listening to my gut makes me reactionary. I want to be proactive in my life.

The main caveat to listening to our guts is that we need to be centered when we're doing it, so the message is clear.  If the emotions we're experiencing at the time are fear and anxiety, we're triggered, and decisions made from that place are almost always the wrong decisions.  And our guts don't speak to us in words, they speak to us in feelings, so "listening" to our guts is really inaccurate, we're really "feeling" our guts, and think about it, when we're triggered, fearful and anxious, that's what we're feeling, fear and anxiety, and if we listened to that we would flee or fight, appropriate responses to those emotions.

At the end of these relationships, when dysfunction is high and both partners are triggered, best to listen to your head, think your way through it; we usually know what the right thing to do is, and if our heart is telling us something else and we decide to do that, then we'll come up with justifications to counter what we know is right.  Can you relate?

The place to "listen" to our gut is at the beginning of the relationship, before the dysfunction begins and before we see the extent of the disorder.  You hear all the time around here about folks "ignoring red flags", well, what if we were committed to staying centered and in touch with our feelings no matter what, and acting accordingly?  If I'd done that my relationship wouldn't have gotten beyond the second date, and there's the lesson, seeing the value of staying centered and in touch with our feelings, because when we don't things get very painful; that's something we can use moving forward yes?

So you've only gone a week Meilli, no time at all really, and of course your "gut" is screaming, or is it your heart instead?  As mentioned, our brain and heart disagree at the end of these relationships, and if we trust our brain and do what's right, and listen to other people who have been through it, then we can begin detaching and creating a life we want to live, and eventually our hearts will catch up and align with what we know if right.

Take care of you!
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« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2016, 10:42:23 AM »

I get what you're saying. The feeling in my gut is the same whether it is thinking about skydiving, forever walking away from my x (at least I completely realize that's entirely within my control now), or choosing the wrong brand of bathroom tissue (sadly, I live alone and no one would know the difference but me!).

Fortunately, I'm learning to sit with those feelings and self-soothe. I'm learning to determine what is important and what isn't. I'm learning what is within my control and what isn't.

I think that a lot of this has moved past the r/s with my pwBPD. I'm now delving into the FOO issues. I'm frustrated with myself for screwing up the chance to reconcile because of my fear. All that I had to do was stay away from the other woman. That's really not too much to ask in the greater scheme of things. But, I freaked out and reverted back to past behaviors. Just like any addict who doesn't yet have the tools to cope. My T suggested that I start saying no to the other woman, and to start to gradually pull away as I learn to take care of myself better and develop new r/s with others. Doesn't sound like the worst plan to me. I know that won't work for my x, but it isn't about her at this point.

uummm... .I wouldn't say that I've gone a week without anything. I had a long conversation via text with my x yesterday about why I ran back to the other woman when I found out that my x was seeing someone and thought it best if we stopped trying to work things out between the two of us. I saw the other woman last night. Not a lot has changed on those fronts. I am changing though. I am growing. Slowly, but it's happening.
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« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2016, 12:26:40 PM »

I knew that I had codependency tendencies that caused me to make poor choices. What I didn't know was to what extent I was willing to damage my own world for the sake of temporary comfort for others.

Now I find myself in a bad spot where I've hurt two people that I truly care about. One or the other (or, possibly both!) will have to continue to be hurt.

Does the situation leave room for an apology or reparations on your part in either case?

Hard to do... .but can help you really appreciate the lesson learned better if you have to go there!
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« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2016, 12:38:25 PM »

With one definitely yes (she already understands), the other is a long shot.

Basically, I have to choose between a long time friend and my uBPDexgf. I can't have any sort of r/s with both.

I had been trying to protect both of them from being hurt. In the process I hurt both of them, destroyed what was left of my r/s with my x, and ultimately hurt myself.

At this point, I can maintain my friendship and completely forget about my x. Or I can terminate the friendship forever more and hope that my x and I can work things out at some point in the future.

To be clear here, my x isn't really being unreasonable. I was engaged to the other woman at one point. She still has feelings for me too, but respects my feelings for my x. What's funny is that two weeks ago, I had terminated all ties to the other woman. It wasn't until I found out that my x was seeing the new guy that I contacted her.

What a mess I've created! Sorry, I know that this is supposed to be about me and not my x.
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« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2016, 01:06:50 PM »

Ok, that explains the problems / landscape you are dealing with.

I'd add that you have a third (but unlikely) possibility: You can choose your friend/ex as a friend (I'm assuming that you have no romantic interest in her anymore, even if she still does), give up reconciling with your uBPDexgf, but leave the door open to be friends with her again someday.

What I don't get is where the part of trying to protect them both from being hurt is, or what was codependent?

Were you trying to have friendships with both of them, hoping that neither one would notice the other was in contact with you?

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« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2016, 01:34:02 PM »

OK, here's where it starts to get complicated.

I was trying to make neither of them feel abandoned, less than important, or that I didn't care.

The friend knew and respected the situation with my x. The x kept telling me that I must terminate the friendship, so I kept trying to do that. The friend would contact me and I'd respond and go right back to helping her. She even made me executor of her estate. My x hated that.

On the other side, I kept trying to get away from my friend because that's what my x wanted. She felt that I was choosing the friend over her. So, I kept telling her that I'd never talk to the friend again, but would always end up doing it because I couldn't say no and was putting her feelings before my own. I would hide the friendship from my x so as to not upset her.

X and I split. I renewed the friendship. X and I start talking about reconciling. I told the friend that she had to be gone. She understood and that was that until x told me that she is seeing someone. Rather than being alone, I succumbed to the codependency and reached out to the friend again. The end result was my x contacting me to tell me that she was disappointed in the fact that I can't stay away from the friend.

I could have stayed away from the friend long ago if it wasn't for my fear of being alone and inability to tell people no.

Does that make better sense?
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« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2016, 03:54:32 PM »

Hey Meili, Frankly, I think your xGF was being unreasonable and manipulative by making it an either/or situation, presumably because of her own insecurities.  My BPDxW did the same thing to me with my family and friends.  I actually think you did the right thing by talking to your friend and I find it encouraging that you renewed your friendship after you split from your Ex.  So, I guess what I'm saying is, I don't agree with the position taken by your xGF, because she was forcing your to make a choice when no choice was necessary, except to the extent it was necessary due to her emotional immaturity.  That's how I see it.

Concerning your gut feelings, I think FromH2H explained it well.  Let's just say that at the outset of my r/s with my BPDxW, I knew in my gut that there was something inherently off about my Ex, or at least I sensed that she was not really the right person for me, but I elected to ignore my gut feelings and stay in the r/s even though I knew deep down it was a mistake.  I even postponed our wedding once.  So I would say that I sensed the red flags, but didn't know how to interpret them because I had no experience with BPD.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2016, 04:51:13 PM »

Thank you for validating my position regarding my friend. I have beaten myself up so many times about it. I have tried to convince myself that things would have turned out differently. But, I know that they wouldn't have.

I also agree that it was her own insecurities and the red flags. She pushed for marriage. I wouldn't do it because of all the flags. My second ex wife cured me of that!
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« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2016, 06:01:10 PM »

It's late and im about to sleep and read some of this just wanted to say i got locked in my room too -when i was naughty as a child - it is really f'd up and I have been masking my pain for years - I have found my T being away for 3 wks v difficult sorry if this is a bit out of context as u posted that nr the top but i havnt read it all yet just wanted to share that for now.  X
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« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2016, 06:19:41 PM »

In another topic I saw going through a situation describing what they and their partner did, giving the sequence of bad actions, identifying where each one chose poorly. I'd like to go through some of this as I see it in your situation:

The friend knew and respected the situation with my x.
Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Good for the friend to respect your r/s

Excerpt
The x kept telling me that I must terminate the friendship
It is manipulative and controlling to tell you who you can and can't be friends with. I wouldn't put up with that. As far as I'm concerned, that is true with an ex in general... .just like it is true with anybody who is of a gender you might find attractive.

Our society does say that this kind of jealousy and forcing your lover to cut ties with any and all exes is acceptable, or at least a lot closer than I would.

If one particular person trips this kind of jealousy, perhaps there is a good reason, and maybe it is worth honoring to keep the peace. If many or all people trip this jealousy, then the jealousy is the problem.

*IF* your x knew you had cheated on your x with this friend during the r/s, or even had an emotional affair, I'd say that this demand is justifiable on her part. (In fact I placed a similar demand on my stbexw regarding a guy she cheated on me with)

You don't mention anything to justify this demand... .I wouldn't accept it myself.

Excerpt
so I kept trying to do that.
Kinda codependent to try to do this, but good of you to attempt to honor your word.

Excerpt
The friend would contact me
Weeeelllll... .this doesn't sound like respecting the situation with your x

Excerpt
I'd respond and go right back to helping her.
Codependent/not cool. If you tell your x you won't contact the friend, then live up to it. (Or tell the x that you won't shut your friend out of your life, and be upfront that you are doing this)

Excerpt
She even made me executor of her estate. My x hated that.
OK, that is pushing the envelope given what's going on with x trying to shut her out of your life. Was there really nobody else she could choose?

Excerpt
I kept trying to get away from my friend because that's what my x wanted.
Lay off this "trying" bit... .as Yoda said, there is no try. There is only do or do not.

Excerpt
She felt that I was choosing the friend over her.
Not what you did, but it is her feeling.

She ought to feel betrayed because you kept breaking your promise to her though.

Excerpt
So, I kept telling her that I'd never talk to the friend again
Did you believe it when you told her?

Excerpt
but would always end up doing it because I couldn't say no and was putting her feelings before my own.
The problem here is that you can't say "no" to either woman, so you kept giving your x your word then breaking it.

Excerpt
I would hide the friendship from my x so as to not upset her.
Deception isn't helping anything.

Excerpt
X and I split. I renewed the friendship.
This seems like a good choice for you at this time.

Excerpt
X and I start talking about reconciling. I told the friend that she had to be gone.
This also seems reasonable on everybody's part (giving you the benefit of the doubt on reconciliation)

Excerpt
She understood and that was that until x told me that she is seeing someone.
Seems like a valid conclusion for your friend here.

Excerpt
Rather than being alone, I succumbed to the codependency and reached out to the friend again.

Excerpt
The end result was my x contacting me to tell me that she was disappointed in the fact that I can't stay away from the friend.

Your x gets to have her feelings, but this is still messed up--she's seeing somebody else and she think she has a right to tellyou who your friends should be at this point![/quote]



Does this clarify things for you?

My perspective: I'm on the verge of dating again soon. I've got some very close, intimate, trusted female friends. Some close male friends too, but more female ones. Among other things, they pulled me through my breakup with my wife. I hope to someday be closer friends with my stbexwife, although it is more distant right now. These women will be (virtually) holding my hand as I head into my next r/s, cheering me on, hoping for the best and helping me keep my eyes open.

None of them are sexual/romantic relationships.

A woman I'm dating who is too insecure to accept this about me isn't the right woman for me. I've been in the position of having a partner shut down my friendships out of jealousy/control/manipulation. I won't do that again.
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« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2016, 10:36:10 PM »

CB, I was locked in the room so that my mother didn't have to deal with me. I'm not saying that mine was worse, just providing more info.

GK, I have replayed all of this so many times in my head. I admit that I made poor choices; well, we all dI'd in this situation.

It probably should be noted that my x got jealous of any female. She also got jealous if I responded to someone on FB before I answered her email.

I eventually told my x that she didn't get to dictate my friends. The r/s never recovered from that. I hear that once we truly start to find our strength, pwBPD then to shy away from us.

And, yes, each time that I promised to never speak to the friend again, I meant it. It wasn't a lie, it was poor impulse control.

Anyway, as you can see from all of this, I completely lacked boundary control. I also gave into my impulses trying to keep both of them happy in their respective roles in my world.
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2016, 08:20:59 AM »

I eventually told my x that she didn't get to dictate my friends. The r/s never recovered from that. I hear that once we truly start to find our strength, pwBPD then to shy away from us.

If you show yourself to be weak, and easily manipulated/bullied/controlled by the pwBPD in your life, they won't respect you for it.

From what I've seen, being strong and holding boundaries is respected, even though it may well be struggling kicking and screaming respect, if that makes sense. Some r/s get much better when they get used to your boundaries and strength. Others leave in response to that. To my mind, both are good outcomes

Excerpt
And, yes, each time that I promised to never speak to the friend again, I meant it. It wasn't a lie, it was poor impulse control.

Anyway, as you can see from all of this, I completely lacked boundary control. I also gave into my impulses trying to keep both of them happy in their respective roles in my world.

I believe you when you say you meant your promise when you made it, and I understand that you did the best you could.

Looking back AFTER the fact, it is clear that you could have done better. Let me ask you--which way would you go back and do better? Or which way would you try to stand strong in the future?

Would you be strong and refuse contact from your friend to honor your promise?

Would you be strong with your uBPDexgf and tell her that you aren't going to cut your friend out of your life?

The two women put you in a position where you had to choose. What you did was the one to make the woman you were dealing with at the time happy.

If you chose based on YOUR beliefs and YOUR principles, which one would it be? I know which mine would, but I can understand taking either choice.
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« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2016, 10:53:11 AM »

Thats tough m, the humiliation, pain, shame and terror is horrible - like being suffocated alive -i have to accept i have these feelings to some degree or other to this day and i have various triggers which i haven't quite got my head around or know yet- my exBPD probably felt things to similar degree but has got caugt up in destructive coping mechanisms - having said that my coping mechanisms are pretty destructive as im starting to understand now - putting all my power over to someone else, acting invincible, minimizing my feelings etc... .just because i dont chose denial or substance misuse mayb i project and i know i have primitive defence mechanisms of hypervigilance and withdrawal - im realising just how much care and attention i need to pay myself
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« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2016, 10:55:49 AM »

If I had it all to do over, knowing what I do now, I would have cut the friend out of my life. Not so much because my x asked/demanded that I do it, but because I made a series of unhealthy choices as a result of not doing so.

I didn't like what I had become. I have always believed that I placed my honor above all else, but I threw that away because of my choice to keep my friend as a safety net and safe place to vent my hurt and frustration that came with my r/s with my x.

When my friend would vent about her r/s with her uNPDbf, I would liment with her about mine. It was an escape from the suffering that I was feeling at the time.

Was that worth my honor? Was that worth my lying to and hiding things from the woman that I loved and wanted to marry? Looking back, no. But, I have better tools at my disposal now, so it's easy for me to say that. At the time, I feel that I did the best that I could.

If given the option for the r/s today, I'd cut the friend out.
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« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2016, 11:14:20 AM »

If I had it all to do over, knowing what I do now, I would have cut the friend out of my life. Not so much because my x asked/demanded that I do it, but because I made a series of unhealthy choices as a result of not doing so.

I didn't like what I had become. I have always believed that I placed my honor above all else, but I threw that away because of my choice to keep my friend as a safety net and safe place to vent my hurt and frustration that came with my r/s with my x.


Was that worth my honor? Was that worth my lying to and hiding things from the woman that I loved and wanted to marry? Looking back, no. But, I have better tools at my disposal now, so it's easy for me to say that. At the time, I feel that I did the best that I could.

If given the option for the r/s today, I'd cut the friend out.

Thank you Meili,

I was betrayed in one of the worst ways by someone that meant the world to me. Who threw away everything we had for a few " friends". I am not talking a best friend, or long term friends, I am talking online making trouble friends. One of the " friends" was actually in my circle in  a round about way. Though I have stayed out of it all, don't want to know or care. The friend is trying to make so much trouble for the person I cared about, and funny thing they will never know. They probably still admire that "friend", who has ruined so many friendships and relationships, but hers is still in tact to a point... .LOL  

I wish the person in my life had felt the same. It shows you are healthy, mature, and looking within. We all need to do that to see what part we played and not continue on in that role. Sometimes relationships can start anew, or be better, but only if both are willing to admit, and do the inner work necessary.

Reading yours helped me for some reason. I appreciate your sharing. I don't blame you though for trying to have a place to vent with your friend.

In time maybe you and the woman you cared about will each have grown, and learned to start anew. If not you will take the growth onto a new relationship that will be very strong, in love and respect.

Sorry to intrude on your thread, it has been really hard and heartbreaking for me lately. Though I know it is important for me to continue to grow, and move forward. I can't make a person love or respect, they have to have that within.

Got a test result back that is alarming, and I am in Holistic health so don't go with many options. I know I have been healing and getting better everyday, most has been stress. Getting rid of lots of the stress from my stbex will help.( he is trying to bring drama as I write this, and I am not responding or letting bother me nor trying to help him through his chaos right now) So hard without the certain love or support, but do have good family and many friends and special people to help me. It has made me value those, and a few that have really stepped up for me lately even more.

Good luck to you, I love your posts and how insightful you are. Though I am sorry for the reason you are here.   

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cherryblossom
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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2016, 12:20:23 PM »

Thats tough m, the humiliation, pain, shame and terror is horrible - like being suffocated alive -i have to accept i have these feelings to some degree or other to this day and i have various triggers which i haven't quite got my head around or know yet- my exBPD probably felt things to similar degree but has got caugt up in destructive coping mechanisms - having said that my coping mechanisms are pretty destructive as im starting to understand now - putting all my power over to someone else, acting invincible, minimizing my feelings etc... .just because i dont chose denial or substance misuse mayb i project and i know i have primitive defence mechanisms of hypervigilance and withdrawal - im realising just how much care and attention i need to pay myself
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Meili
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« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2016, 02:43:22 PM »

Lily, I'm sorry that are having to through all of this too. I'm happy that you got something from my situation. I wish that I hadn't discovered all of these things after it was too late. But, they say that the r/s that bring us here can be a great gift. I know that mine truly was. I never would have taken the time to slow down and look at what was truly going on if it hadn't happened.

I've been married twice, and engaged two other times. My most recent x is the only woman that I've ever actually wanted to marry though. So, it kinda makes sense that I am now looking closely at what transpired. Who knows what the future holds for me though?

CB, that's exactly it; I do feel like I'm siffucating when I am alone like that. I truly feel like I am going to die. Being a male, it is hard to feel comfortable reaching out to other males at times like that. It's even hard reaching out to a female who has never experienced the feeling before. People who haven't been there just don't understand. But, how could they?

I tried to find ways to explain it to my x early on. She would tell me to grow up, or get over it. She couldn't understand the magnitude of what I was experiencing. My friend did though because she's had similar experiences. So, out of desperation, that's where I sought comfort.

So, now I have the friend, I have some comfort, but nothe the love. I'm trying to learn to love myself to the extent necessary to not need to seek comfort in others. No matter what road I follow, that is going to have to be part of it.
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eeks
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« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2016, 05:04:52 PM »

Staff only

This topic has reached its post limit.  Please feel free to start a new thread to continue the discussion.
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