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Author Topic: How do you let them know their being irrational when they can't manage their emo  (Read 940 times)
Horus

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« on: June 26, 2016, 03:18:12 AM »

Its like I can't disagree with her. If I do she takes it as a challenge and it turns into a debate. It makes me not want to comment at all. Other times when she has an issue its just always code red/to the extreme and I try tell her she's being irrational but to no avail.I can say one thing and she hears another and then I'll bring that to her attention and it seems like I make it worse. I want to help but don't know how to. How do I get her to acknowledge when she's being irrational when at the time she either can't see it or refuses to accept it and she knows she has the condition. Please help
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2016, 04:07:25 AM »

I wouldn't recommend it. Pointing out "you're being irrational" has never too gone well for me. Our first goal is to turn the heat off to keep the pot from boiling over. Having a rational discussion is not likely (if not impossible) until they've cooled down a bit.

What works best for me is validating the emotions behind the irrationality. It helps to stay calm to avoid getting drawn in to the chaos. When my bf is saying nutty things in an emotional state, I try to listen for cues of where its coming from... .what is he feeling? Fear? Rejection? Frustration? Overwhelmed? If I'm not sure, I ask questions to show concern and interest, which can be validating in itself. This is the hardest to do when I'm the target of his wrath!... .but validating his feelings can often bring him back down to a semi-rational state at least. Can you give an example?
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2016, 10:43:26 AM »

I find it very frustrating when I'm in that position as well.  When you become the target, usually that is the borderline projecting their very painful emotions on to you.  It feels personal, but it really isn't, they are just looking for anywhere to unload that pain.  I know it is hard in the moment, but if you could depersonalize the wrath, and really take validation for what it is then I think those situations might come out with a better outcome.  Validation isn't agreeing with something that is irrational, it is merely a tool that we use to turn the stove down before it explodes.  In fact we all want to have our feelings validated, but borderlines need it a lot, lot more.  In fact, one of the single biggest things I believe would help you in your relationship is to realized how much of the behavior isn't personal at all.  When she is in code red, that is her issue, not yours.  Each time something happens, whisper under your breath, "none of this is personal" and then react accordingly with validation and compassion.
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Horus

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2016, 10:30:10 PM »

Example:right now we are going through a situation where I'm trying to take a little more time for myself... .Well we've been together for 9 yrs. And married for 4, so we've gone through a lot .the main thing for her is that she caught me having an inappropriate conversation with another female and now she just can't let it go even though it was years ago, so now when I want time to myself, she goes back there,,, understandable but on the other hand I am entitled to have time to myself but it doesn't go very well when I try. I get all kinds of accusations from cheating,selfish,I don't care, and I try to tell her that even if that is the case she has to let me get time to myself or leave me but I need a lil space ,after I assure her that everything is fine... She tries to give me my space but then I gotta deal with the attitude that comes with it... .I know that the main thing is is that she's not content in her own mind , like she hates being alone in her own thoughts. She can't slow down her mind and it takes her to all kinds of negative places. She knows this and agrees but in the heat of the moment it just doesn't click. I love my wife but our communication is breaking down and I don't want to pay for something for the rest of my life that I did yrs ago. At least that's the excuse she use's but j know that's only a small portion of it. I break this all down for her but she takes offense to everything & I spend most of the conversation translating everything I say cause she's so critical and misinterprets everything... Thank you guys for helping but I thought if I validated her feeling I would be enabling her. If I validate how do we get them to recognize when they are being extreme?
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Jessica84
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2016, 12:57:51 AM »

Here's a good start ~~> How to stop circular arguments: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

Another good topic is on boundaries~~> https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

It may help to know that she can't give you space. It's not hers to give. If you value your space, you may have to set boundaries.
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Jessica84
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2016, 01:32:56 AM »

Also, validating someone's feelings is not the same as enabling. It's not about getting them to recognize their behavior or teaching them anything. It's about making them feel understood. If she FEELS scared, she IS scared. Does it matter that she shouldn't be? Feelings don't have to be rational. Acknowledging she feels a certain way is validating.

Set aside your logical brain for a second. Say you're terrified of clowns, or flying, or spiders, or whatever... .If you were feeling an intense emotion such as fear, would it be helpful for someone to tell you how irrational you are and trying to prove it to you? Would that calm you down? Or do you think you might get mad, feel misunderstood, and frustrated? Isn't it harder to think clearly or be reasonable when we're in a highly charged emotional state? That is where most pwBPD live. We have no hope of them ever being rational if we heighten their emotional state. Validation can help lessen the intensity and make more room for rational thought.

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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2016, 09:25:41 AM »

Having your own truth and trying to sell it are two different things.

Why tell her she is being irrational? All you need do is be rational yourself. Her opinion is her opinion and she has her right to it whether it is justified or not.

HER:" I think the moon is made of cheese'

YOU: ":)o you really believe that?"

HER: "Yes"

YOU: "I was always of the belief it is just a rock"

HER: "Its not, its made of cheese"

YOu: "Thats ok, if that is what you (dont insert "want to" here) believe"

You heard her, you validated (acknowledged) that is what she believes, you said your belief but did not tell her she was wrong or what she should believe. It is her opinion and you are not going to get her to change her mind, she may do that on her own not because you tell her to.


Probably still want to argue but not as vehemently.

pwBPD are looking for, and are expecting to be challenged and have an aggressive defense at the ready. They have built their wall and have the boiling oil at the ready, ride on by dont besiege the wall you will get burnt
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2016, 01:03:41 PM »

Hello Horus  

May I just ask how receptive is she to personal growth, learning or improving? I am asking as I read your other where she is in medical field? How did she get diagnosed?

Depending on the answer is how I would go about it.

Reason  is my ex to be UBPD doesn't think he has a problem, won't acknowledge he ever did wrong and is not into improving his work, his family or being a friend to me when all is over. So I am good with that. So no sense trying to point things out to someone like that.

Having said that I am a non but healing from the care-taking ( he was ill) and Codependency of always trying to fix, make things better and his abuse.  I found because I couldn't be myself with him, express opinions, or even have an adult conversation on many topics it was stressful.

So when I had that with someone special to me he took it that I debated, or got upset with him. I see that now and want to improve how he took it. Though I am a non willing to listen as we all do, to grow and change.

If she is diagnosed, happy within herself and willing to learn, maybe you can point while using tools that you are learning as she is important to you and your relationship is. But it will take work on her part too or in the end you both will lose a large part of you. Maybe even sharing with her tools that you both can use.

I have seen many threads where the lack of trust destroys with BPD relationships. Tell her that and give her a choice to trust and build the foundation or tear it away.

I am no expert, and maybe some here can advise better as they have. How about therapy?

Also since she is in a field that you have to continue to study, learn and grow maybe you can make it seem where this is something for personal growth for you both to be closer.
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2016, 03:26:33 AM »

At one time I used to let my wife guilt trip me and now I realize that its nothing but manipulation. I also had to deal with her projecting her problems on to me and making me feel like I'm the one with the problem and for a time I entertained it but now I see that its all apart of her not accepting her own issues and tryna put the "fault" on me. Now my question is is this not abuse? I feel really offended because I believe that she's taking advantage of my love for her. She has to know and know better... .And as far as the using validation to help them out , I just don't get it and I have tried. Then you become wrapped up in God knows what and agreeing to things that are way off base. When I did that I started showing BPD tendencies. Becoming what I was tryna combat by enabling. It kills me to entertain things I know are completely out of touch or just to extreme. I'm tired and our communication is breaking down and I think its because I'm getting tired of trying. I have become the manager of her emotions and the guardian of my sanity from my own wife. Every day it's something different. This is after almost 10 yrs. I'm fed up and if she doesn't seek help I'm leaving. I'm willing to get help also because I am awear  that I don't have the tools either bug our situation is getting volatile and its like were both are starting not to care. Will it always b like this ? Will she ever be able to manage her own emotions or have I took on a life long job of constantly validating, managing emotions, explaining the obvious and deflecting the abuse and anger? Sorry so long winded,,, needed to vent... .Not meaning to bash... .I appreciate the advice
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2016, 04:46:03 AM »

. And as far as the using validation to help them out , I just don't get it and I have tried. Then you become wrapped up in God knows what and agreeing to things that are way off base.

Validation is not agreeing with the invalid. It is about showing you are taking their views seriously, not that you agree with them. It is hard i admit.
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2016, 03:16:05 PM »

Excerpt
Validation is not agreeing with the invalid. It is about showing you are taking their views seriously, not that you agree with them. It is hard i admit.

^Yes.  All you are doing is letting the pwBPD feel heard - that sometimes is all that is needed to validate them.  This does not mean agree or take the blame.  It means let that person feel heard, that you did not dismiss their feelings, no matter if you think their feelings are warranted.

H was nice last night when I was home sick, and picked up DQ on the way home.  Him running any errand while I am sick is not the norm for us, so I made sure to tell him I appreciated it.  Then, sadly, he realized that they got HIS order wrong.  I am not a picky eater, and when this happens afer a momentary upset, as long as I don't HATE what I DID get, I'm okay.  I my not order from that place again, or will insist on going in to order and/or will open every container to be sure I got what I asked for, but it would be done.  He spent 15 minutes lamenting how he got chicken fingers instead of steak fingers, and how that was totally horrible.  I don't feel it's worth 15 or more minutes of upset, but I listened, tried to validate his feelings (yes, they don't listen, yes, it should have been done right, yes, all boxes and parts of a drive thru order have to be checked, etc.)  And he calmed down and ate his chicken fingers.  He was off-kilter all night, and also today, and I fear he's ramping up for an annual bout of fall depression a little early, but we'll take it one day at a time.

pwBPD: "Says something that sounds totally out there to you"

you: "I hear you saying, 'something that sounds totally out there.' That sounds sad/frustrating/anger-fying... ."

That's pretty much a way to start - just calmly repeat back what was said, shows active listening, and acknowledge that the pwBPD has some sort of feeling about it, and that they have a right to their own feelings.  YOU don't have to feel this way, agree with it, or believe it.  A big aprt of how arguments get out of hand is trying to point out the other person is irrational - who likes to hear that, ever?  Even people equipped with decent emotional control dislike hearing that they are A) Irrational B)Crazy C)Mean, whatever.  Talk about the situation, repeat what is being said, and validate the emotions even if you do not agree - "I hear you saying you are upset."  Sometimes it's very hard, especially when what is being said is something to poke you personally - practice with outside sources of frustration, and when it IS you, learn to not take it internally, to take a break (leave if you can), and validate that your SO has these feelings, not whether you think they are accurate.
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2016, 06:23:23 PM »

Its like I can't disagree with her. If I do she takes it as a challenge and it turns into a debate. It makes me not want to comment at all. Other times when she has an issue its just always code red/to the extreme and I try tell her she's being irrational but to no avail.I can say one thing and she hears another and then I'll bring that to her attention and it seems like I make it worse. I want to help but don't know how to. How do I get her to acknowledge when she's being irrational when at the time she either can't see it or refuses to accept it and she knows she has the condition. Please help

if she is being irrational that is her choice.  You have a right to state your view of the world if you like, but dont try selling it to someone who is not in the frame of buying.

Debate takes at least two participants. Any attempt to flat out tell her she is wrong is going to trigger auto defensiveness by in her mind "attacking her reality". You are simply throwing rocks at an emotional avalanche and making things worse.
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2016, 09:17:29 PM »

How do you feel about the validation process now with the many excellent points and advice?  Can you see that it is a tool to diffuse rather than agreeing with someone's behavior?  I know it is very hard to deal with someone who has such strong emotions, but to them it is real.  It really is a huge deal.  As I've said before, one of the best ways that I use is to say, "That sucks!" or "I hate when that happens!"  Otherwise if you are not careful they might think you are patronizing them if they are not used to be validated.  In fact when I first started I would say things like, "I understand how you feel honey."  She didn't buy it for a second. 
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2016, 10:50:16 PM »

  In fact when I first started I would say things like, "I understand how you feel honey."  She didn't buy it for a second. 

A good alternative to that is "Tell me how that makes you feel honey".

Saying "I understand" can be a stumbling point, as they are often trying to tell you that you dont, and you are effectively telling them they are wrong (in their mind). Also sometimes if they are agreeable to you saying you understand they can extrapolate that to mean you agree to their excuse to do whatever they like because you "understand why"... Of course that then leads to being accused of lying when you dont accept everything.

Reality is your mind is not like theirs so you can't fully understand anything. The only thing you can understand is that their perceptions are different to yours in some way. The rest is presumption.

Asking how they feel you are not putting your hand up for anything other than showing interest, which is one thing they want and which costs nothing to give.
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2016, 10:03:40 AM »

Yeah, my saying "I understand... ." to my x seemed to be a real issue because 1) there was quite a bit that I didn't truly understand; and 2) it shut her down. There was nothing more for her to say because "I understood." It often came across as very invalidating. Many times things became four+ hour discussions revolving around her trying to get me to actually understand and validate.

I still say it to her, but only when she is clear and direct about what she is feeling.

There are far more effective methods of validating the valid.
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2016, 03:43:20 PM »

Totally agree. Validating (and avoiding invalidating) were tricky for me. One of the sweetest and most surprising responses I got from my then-suicidal boyfriend was when I said simply "I'm sorry. I don't fully understand what you're going thru, but I'm here for you." He said, "That's enough for me." And it seemed to be. He stopped trying so desperately to explain his feelings to me. And eventually he got better. But I never would've guessed that telling him I didn't understand would make him feel understood. BPD is one strange disorder.
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2016, 05:27:21 PM »

. But I never would've guessed that telling him I didn't understand would make him feel understood. BPD is one strange disorder.

The essence of this is that you "accept" what they are saying/feeling/doing, and are not just dismissing them as silly/irrelevant/without a right. It validates their existence and value. Even if they are telling you that you cant understand.
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2016, 09:28:13 AM »

Validation is not agreeing with the invalid. It is about showing you are taking their views seriously, not that you agree with them. It is hard i admit.

And here is the crux of the problem:  I am not taking my wife's lies or delusional behavior seriously. Period.  The end.

VAT on these boards:

Wife:  Remember that time you did that thing?
Me:  Do you really believe I did that thing?
Wife:  You absolutely did that thing how could you forget?
Me:  I understand how upset you must be to believe I did that thing

Real life

Wife:  Remember that time you did that thing?
Me:  I couldn't have done that thing because I was in a different state that day here look at my Outlook calendar see that NEVER happened and it's not even a situation where you're conflating events.  It. never. happened.  Never.
Wife:  BUT THAT'S HOW YOU MADE ME FEEL!
Me:  How did I make you feel a way about an event that never happened?
Wife:  [Poutrages for the rest of the night]

Now, one might reasonably argue that a little validation would have gone a long way towards avoiding a lot of poutraging, but I've just gotta say - with all the love and appreciation in my heart for all the good so many of the mods and posters do every single day - it kind of irks me that the choices, as postulated on these boards over and over, are to leave or to validate nonsense. 

Statement: The sky is purple 

VAT:  That's an interesting perspective how does that make you feel?
Real life:  Oh, I see you've gone off your meds please don't get upset when I watch you take your anti-psychotics tonight.

And before the validation != acceptance brigade sweeps into action, yes, you are implicitly enabling this behavior by engaging this way.  You absolutely are implicitly giving them permission to believe that their warped world view is true because you are the closest person to them in their lives and you're not telling them they're wrong, so in a world that's only black and white if they're not wrong... .drumroll... .  they're right.

I made my bed and I'll lie in it:  there is no question in my mind that drawing boundaries around what was and wasn't acceptable behavior and my decreasing tolerance to put up with increasingly delusional behavior led to the demise of my marriage.  But, dammit, the moon isn't made of cheese and it's truly, really, deeply not ok if that's what you believe.  Not even a little bit ok.

Last but not least, that doesn't mean wifey didn't make lots of cogent, thoughtful points about ways to improve our marriage or instances where I was dead wrong.  It does mean that if she's going to suicide ideate and have me try to take her to the hospital only for her to refuse and threaten to leave our marriage, then suicide ideate the next day and tell me it's my fault for not taking her to the hospital, there's not gonna be a shred of validation forthcoming.

"I wanted to kill myself last night and you didn't take me to the hospital so it's your fault I want to kill myself tonight."

VAT:  That must be incredibly upsetting to feel like you want to take your own life.  How would you feel about going to the hospital with me?
Real life:  [on phone dialing 911]

Validation implies understanding.  If the behaviors were understandable they wouldn't be mental illnesses.

TL:)R:  The choice between validating untruth or leaving is indicative of how toxic these relationships can be.






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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2016, 10:28:58 AM »

Now, one might reasonably argue that a little validation would have gone a long way towards avoiding a lot of poutraging, but I've just gotta say - with all the love and appreciation in my heart for all the good so many of the mods and posters do every single day - it kind of irks me that the choices, as postulated on these boards over and over, are to leave or to validate nonsense.  

Yep, I see your point, totally. While I get the validation, and see how it is a very useful skill in many kinds of relationships - and probably do it often and certainly with my friend's kids - the difference is the frequency, the degree of the mistake in thinking/delusion, and the lack of any expectation of progress.  How to define 'progress'?  Simply that the pwBPD will slowly learn to recognize these episodes and manage them better.

Maybe some do, it seems from a couple of members of these boards that gradual improvement can happen if the validation is constant and the non remains calm, insightful, and generous over a long time.  But there are set-backs because there are triggers in life.  In the end, it seems to me that while we can and maybe should all learn these skills and apply them in our lives, it depends just how emotionally ravaged our BPD is and how much support we have it in us to offer someone with a mental illness.  

Maybe it's worth it, and maybe it's not. For me it wasn't in the end, because I saw the enormous amount of vicious anger that was being directed at me and would have needed a team of invisible psychologists at my side reminding me "it's not personal" and feeding me responses that were validating correctly.

And then, even if the miracle happened and he and I were on neutral territory again, the amount of work that I would have to do to keep things balanced.
No, I just couldn't see how I had the strength or the time.

I want someone who, if they see a purple sky, wants me to wonder at it with them, not use it to prove that I have done something wrong.  
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2016, 11:09:16 AM »

I can certainly agree with you both VitaminC and Icanteven. Validating the invalid is just plain wrong and enables.

FTR, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that anyone else validate the invalid.

Validation is not about agreeing. Validation is about making the other person feel safe, heard, and important. This applies to every r/s in life; not just to pwBPD. It is simply a tool to show love and defuse a situation before it becomes worse.

But, as previously said, it really has nothing to do with agreeing with the other person and should not be used to enable or validate the invalid.

I also agree with both of you that it is a lot of work that will probably be for naught. It is quite frustrating to have to spend so much time and energy on something that causes so much pain. It really is a bad idea for most people to even try to keep themselves in situations such as this. Even worse, in some cases, it is a matter of physical safety and the only sane recourse is to remove ourselves from the situation permanently.
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2016, 08:43:35 PM »

This is why validating is not easy and it is too easy to over compensate, trying too hard. I think once you know the principles of validation you can go a long way towards not invalidating.

The examples quoted are usually the "ideal'. Like any ideal it is over the top nannying to a degree, but reality is more about accepting the principle but toning it to suit your situation

I am more of a middle ground. Along the lines of clarifying what she is saying, saying how I see things, then if that differs its not my problem to stress over. she doesn't need to believe my reality anymore than I hers.

Excerpt
"I wanted to kill myself last night and you didn't take me to the hospital so it's your fault I want to kill myself tonight."

I went through this many times with overdoses and threats too. In which case I ended up just handing her the phone and told her to either call lifeline or the paramedics as she doesn't sound like she is in a good place.

You can be hard nose without piling on the invalidation.

Ultimately you still have to sound like you, not some psychology text book, or preschool teacher.

At the end of the day if you keep trying to hammer a square logic peg in a round BPD hole you will just end up with damaged peg and a still empty hole. Do you want to spend the rest of your RS doing that?
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2016, 06:47:57 AM »

Oh yes I can so relate. They choose one or two things to pin on you and every time it's this knee jerk thing that they go back to it. I too had some overly friendly conversations with an ex during a depressing phase where my BPD bf was ignoring me a lot and being cold. The conversations weren't that bad, but could have been interpreted badly by him. He just can't let go and has even used it as a horrible breakup tool before, saying I can't be trusted. Amongst other bizarre non sensible accusations... .I must admit though, I've continued with defending myself and the result has been that rather than bringing up one of ten possible accusations, he only has one or two left to choose from! At least my defence on repeat has brought a little logic, but if they have one thing to use, it's the same as ten anyway!

I'd like to improve on validation, but it's hard when you also want to stand up for yourself. I'm not so great at having my partner see me so wrongly! The whole thing can be so bizarre and we all just do our best from moment to moment to cope with such behaviour.

Last time he brought this stuff up unfairly I said, 'how about we write a timeline of actual events of our relationship. What actually happened compared to fictional... .Write it on paper, in black and white... .how would it look really... .?'

He blurted out in a frustrated voice 'Yeah, I'd look like a total ar#e hole!'

It's not my intention to make him think that about himself, and it doesn't help. It's very hard though, to access and discuss their feelings behind the accusation in the heated moment. I think if you want to diffuse, you need to accept and distract, be mild mannered and talk about it later... .Tough gig overall!

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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2016, 07:02:31 AM »

... .I'm now trying to think of a validation I could make in my situation... .

'Ok, so what I'm hearing is that you still have your doubts about me and... .you are trying to say you don't trust me darling... ?' 

Yeah, in the face of such hurtful expressions from your own partner, I guess it's about self control and taking the 'higher ground'. Rising above so to speak.

It must take a very long time to master such skills and be able to use them so well, when it relates directly to an unfair or deluded accusation.

Can anyone give an example on how to validate when it's relating to a false accusation?
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2016, 09:54:26 AM »

I could have written those exact words Zinnia.

Validation does not necessarily have to come in the form of an express statement with my x it would seem. Sometimes I get a lot further if I don't JADE. I acknowledge that my actions with regard to talking to a former gf about the r/s with my x was inappropriate. I also acknowledge how much it hurt my x and the damage that it did to the r/s. I used to try to justify, argue, defend, and/or explain (JADE). That did nothing but tell her that I thought that her feelings were wrong and anger her. Her feelings are never wrong; no ones are. I validate by simply not invalidating her.

It does take a lot of practice. I'm still not very good at it, but I'm working on it. When accusations arise, When we last talked, I still wanted to explain my side of things and "show her" that my version of the facts are quite different from hers. But, when that happened, she actually heard me tell her that she's wrong. For pwBPD, feelings = facts. By disputing the facts, I would actually dispute her feelings. She would be invalidated.

Now, I try to remember that what she would tell me wasn't really about the facts, it was about how she felt.
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2016, 12:25:50 PM »

What do you do if they don't even say anything, just behave oddly and refuse to admit anything is up at all.

I once, ages ago, met an ex who was back in town for a few days for the most innocent of coffees. BPD happened to come along and I introduced them and then went off with BPD for food, as planned. He told me about a year later that that was the moment that he decided to not trust me anymore .

Presumably that was the moment he also decided to go have a fling with an old standby. 

The fact that we'd just moved in together and I was clearly besotted with him didn't register at all.

Mine was constantly doing things like that - coming to conclusions but never telling me there was anything up. And if I asked there would never be an answer.

Until the demon was unleashed & he started in with the accusations proper, I was pretty unaware that so many little things were triggering him all the time.

Hard to validate things before they actually exist in realspace. Before that it's just a vague sense of unease I'd have.   
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2016, 12:36:56 PM »

That can be really hard. I used to do that to my x. I would avoid conflict as much as possible and not complain about anything until she would start in, and then she would find out how much stuff had been building up inside my head. Very uncool of me.

I'm going to guess that keeps you walking on eggshells too? Never knowing if something has upset him?

I'm not really sure of the answer to the question. Anyone else have any ideas?
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2016, 12:41:51 PM »

Yes, eggshells. Also made me angry because I could speculate but refused to. I kept saying ," just tell me the moment something occurs to you, we'll sort it then & there, we can do it," but it never happened that way.

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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2016, 12:56:57 PM »

OK, well, we know that he isn't comfortable doing that with you. We don't have to know why right now, just that he isn't.

Is there another way that you might be able to get him to open up without it feeling like he's being interrogated?

What happens when you start by talking about how you feel about something not necessarily related to him? I say that because I'm guessing that r/s talks trigger also. That's probably not the best way to get him to open up.

Have you had any success getting him to open up before he erupts in the past?
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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2016, 02:08:13 PM »

Mine was constantly doing things like that - coming to conclusions but never telling me there was anything up. And if I asked there would never be an answer.

Until the demon was unleashed & he started in with the accusations proper, I was pretty unaware that so many little things were triggering him all the time.

Often they are not consistent triggers stored up. What happens is when they are triggered their memory searches back for reasons to validate that trigger. At the time it wasn't an issue at all.

Act first and then assemble the reason for the behavior after. Hence they have inappropriate reasoning, and hence they dont learn as cause and effect are dissasociated from each other.
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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2016, 09:11:47 PM »

VitaminC, I truly sympathise! Have experienced the silence... and the noise!
I was giving some thought to triggers this morning.

As waverider says, it's about projecting their painful feelings onto things that don't even work as a 'scapegoat'. But sometimes a small thing is really a trigger, but they are not realising their disproportionate reactions.
Like when we are walking down the street and a guy might smile at me but not look at him. This is in itself a trigger, but instead of seeing it as a small passing event, it taps into deeper feelings of hurt, it represents ALL the times he has been slighted (some real, some imagined).

Can a pwBPD ever start to see (with help and therapy) that they need to start monitoring the size of their reactions at least some of the time? And that they need to look within or look to the past to see the source of their pain.

Though I also realise it's unfair to expect this type of rational thought process from someone who is impaired with their emotional responses... .
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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2016, 02:56:44 AM »

Thank you for those insights, Neil, waverider, and zinnia. Helpful.

It makes sense then that even if we'd talked abt sonething and I thought it was dealt with and a good learning experience for us both, that it was STILL brought up months later as "evidence". As if we'd never spoken about it. 

Maddening. Impossible, as far as I'm concerned, with this person anyway. 

 
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« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2016, 06:02:34 AM »

Can a pwBPD ever start to see (with help and therapy) that they need to start monitoring the size of their reactions at least some of the time? And that they need to look within or look to the past to see the source of their pain.

The crux of the problem and the million dollar question. IMO.
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« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2016, 06:08:24 AM »

The answer is yes. They can learn to reign in their emotions.  It just takes far more work than most want to devote. The fear seems to override the desire to look at why they act as they do and make significant change. That's why they project onto and blame others.
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« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2016, 06:10:56 AM »

And one last thing: it took me 6 months to get over the shock if how a very analytical & logical & normally sharp-minded person (him) could become completely illogical & bizarre in his cause-effect rationale.

Totally crazy, in fact.

That makes sense too now.
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« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2016, 06:45:41 PM »

Can a pwBPD ever start to see (with help and therapy) that they need to start monitoring the size of their reactions at least some of the time? And that they need to look within or look to the past to see the source of their pain.

Being aware of it is one thing, but learning the self management skills to overcome it is another. Unfortunately many get stuck between the two and feeling like an ever bigger failure. This where depression and a feeling of hopelessness kicks in.

My wife is in this zone. She is aware of this, but in the moment the urge is too strong to resist. It fuels the self loathing
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« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2016, 01:05:11 PM »

it kind of irks me that the choices, as postulated on these boards over and over, are to leave or to validate nonsense.

 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Validating a person is not validating nonsense. Validating nonsense makes matters worse. The real take home is that we can be invalidating and it doesn't help our relationship. This video is really good: https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation Maybe the best way to think of this is I need to not be invalidating.

Excerpt
How do you let them know their being irrational when they can't manage their emotions

You don't. When someone is emotionally flooded, you are not going to break through and reach them.  The tool here is to recognize that they are emotionally flooded and do what you can to defuse, or at least not make matter worse (like trying to tell them they are being irrational).

When things are calm and good in a day or two or a week, you can broach the subject then and more in a constructive way - hey dear, how do we deal with this in the future?

Can a pwBPD ever start to see (with help and therapy) that they need to start monitoring the size of their reactions at least some of the time? And that they need to look within or look to the past to see the source of their pain.

Yes. This is what DBT teaches - how to intercept emotions before showering them on the innocent.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  As waverider says, it's a skill learned in stages and not always easy to apply.
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« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2016, 03:48:30 PM »

Remember it is like dealing with a traumatized child
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2016, 09:51:54 AM »

Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Validating a person is not validating nonsense. Validating nonsense makes matters worse. The real take home is that we can be invalidating and it doesn't help our relationship. This video is really good: https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation Maybe the best way to think of this is I need to not be invalidating.

Respectfully, Skip, I completely disagree. Per your link, "To validate someone's feelings is first to accept someone's feelings - and then to understand them - and finally to nurture them. To validate is to acknowledge and accept a person. Invalidation, on the other hand, is to reject, ignore, or judge."

I'm at a dinner party the other night and one of our politically iconoclastic friends expresses the opinion that he believes Gary Johnson will be our next President.  This assertion is met with a smattering of twitters, some outright laughter, some dismissive silence, and by me deciding to attempt to use VAT, so I ask him why he believes this to be true.  His answer is nonsensical and uses mutually exclusive and self-contradictory reasoning that's almost impossible to untangle, which others immediately point out, but I decide to press ahead and ask if he thinks that Trump will drop out and Johnson will pick up Trump supporters, thereby winning the election.  Another convoluted, contradictory answer comes forth that dismisses my question, which is immediately pounced on by a few of the guests who've had a little more to drink than I have.

Could Gary Johnson win the Presidency?  I have no idea, but he certainly can't do it the way it was expressed to us.  And, frankly, the reasoning espoused by our companion absolutely should be rejected as illogical, ignored for being provocative for the sake of being provocative, and judged as being flat out sophistry.

Our dinner companion clearly felt invalidated, as this discussion spilled over to Facebook the next day, with him accusing us of being closed-minded and oblivious to political realities that are a reality only in his mind.

People are shades of gray.  Reality is often very black and white. There's no way to validate what isn't true, even if I'm only attempting to validate the emotions behind it.  You feel like I did something when you're clearly using projection and reconstructing a reality that your own family acknowledges as fanciful?  I'm sorry you feel that way and that must be hard but you are wrong.  You can choose to accept that you're wrong or not, but you're going to be invalidated one way or the other because your feelings ARE NOT VALID.  I can't validate the invalid without making the invalid valid by the definition used in the article.


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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2016, 10:04:54 AM »

icanteven, if you are telling us that you feel the way that you do, I can respect that. If you are discussing the logic behind the concepts, then we need to look deeper into what you are saying.

A person's feelings are never wrong; period. If you reject their feelings simply because you do not agree with their logic or thought processes, you are telling them that their feelings are wrong. At that point, you are judging, rejecting, and insulting the person. Who are you to tell another that his or her feelings are wrong?

Also, reality is never black and white either. What is perceived as reality is different from the next person because we all run the input that our senses provide us through the filters that have been created by what we've learned. My favorite example of this is that to some people "the sky is blue." That is their reality. My reality is that the sky has no color whatsoever. The color that we see is merely light being refracted by the moisture in the atmosphere. Where is the black and white in this? Whose reality is correct? Who gets to decide that?
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2016, 10:19:06 AM »

A person's feelings are never wrong; period. If you reject their feelings simply because you do not agree with their logic or thought processes, you are telling them that their feelings are wrong.

Sure they are.  If you told me you felt like setting my house on fire, we wouldn't be talking about validation, we'd be talking about the police getting involved. 


Also, reality is never black and white either.


Sure it is.  The universe is either 13.5 billion years old or it isn't.  The sun is primarily made up of hydrogen or it isn't.  The moon reflects light from the sun or it doesn't.  If you (not YOU, the royal you) believe otherwise that's a real problem.  As a matter of fact, the denial of certain scientific realities based on the feelings of certain people is a major problem and has been for millennia.


What is perceived as reality is different from the next person because we all run the input that our senses provide us through the filters that have been created by what we've learned. My favorite example of this is that to some people "the sky is blue." That is their reality. My reality is that the sky has no color whatsoever. The color that we see is merely light being refracted by the moisture in the atmosphere. Where is the black and white in this? Whose reality is correct? Who gets to decide that?

That's not a question of reality, it's a question of semantics.  If I told you the sky is blue and you corrected me by talking about prisms and visible light and molecules and red shift you'd be right, but I'm using common parlance in saying "the sky is blue today."  If, as in my other example, I said "the sky is purple" on a day when molecule scattering has caused it to be blue, we have a problem.

One of the major problems with the disorder for pwBPD is that feelings = facts, and the "facts" in many cases are tied to feelings about things that simply aren't true.  And that's my point. 

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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2016, 10:40:37 AM »

Let me go one step further.

I have a very close friend who has a relative that is a schizophrenic.  Sometimes this relative decides they don't need to take their (English majors breathe I'm not going to be gender-specific purposely) clozapine, in which case their body is being invaded by aliens.

Now, this friend does their damnedest to validate the relative's feelings, but unless one of two things happen, the feeling does not abate:  a) friend acknowledges that aliens are in fact invading their loved one's body, or; b) clozapine to the rescue.

Implicitly, giving the relative clozapine is invalidating because that feeling is only changed by administering an anti-psychotic.  Aliens are not invading their body.  But they FEEL like they are. 

Is this an extreme example?  Sure, but I'm sure many of us can relate to hearing the statement "I don't know why that's just how I feel" and feeling despair because that feeling is based on incomplete information or has been made up out of whole cloth.  Am I suggesting that we not show empathy?  Absolutely not.  But I can express that it must feel awful to feel that way and I can see how hard that must make it for them while at the same time reminding them that the truth is something different.  I think too often that last letter gets overlooked, and unfortunately, there have been numerous situations where being empathetic and acknowledging their feelings doesn't matter because I don't accept their reality, and that makes me invalidating and erases everything I previously said. 

There are lots of situations where people just want to be heard.  I can do that all day.  There are others where people want their reality to be THE reality, and when that doesn't happen, you haven't heard them.
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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2016, 10:57:28 AM »

Sure they are.  If you told me you felt like setting my house on fire, we wouldn't be talking about validation, we'd be talking about the police getting involved. 

No, they are still not wrong. What you just said is that you feel that how you feel is more important than how I feel. I can feel the desire to commit arson, but until I've acted on that feeling is is nothing more than how I feel. The action in that case is wrong, not the feeling.

Why do you have a right to tell me that my desire to commit arson is wrong? I have not done any action. I have not committed any transgression against you. I just feel that way. Nothing more, nothing less. What makes you right and me wrong in this situation?

Sure it is.  The universe is either 13.5 billion years old or it isn't.  The sun is primarily made up of hydrogen or it isn't.  The moon reflects light from the sun or it doesn't.  If you (not YOU, the royal you) believe otherwise that's a real problem.  As a matter of fact, the denial of certain scientific realities based on the feelings of certain people is a major problem and has been for millennia.

And, once again, you are incorrect. The most basic tenant in science, since you want to try to play in that realm, is that we can never actually know anything. There is no such thing as a fact.

By way of example, we used to be believe that an object with mass could not be in two places at the same time. Science has proven that "fact" as incorrect.

To take your analogy about the Sun a step further, YOUR reality is that the Sun is primarily made up of hydrogen. MY reality is that it is primarily made up of subatomic particles.

As you should be able to clearly see, what you call scientific realities amount to nothing more than currently available and accepted data that is subject to being proven wrong at any moment in time; thus the opposite of this reality of which you speak.

As I said earlier, what you believe to be reality is nothing more than stimuli provided by your senses filtered your own learned concepts. We can go back and forth on this for millennia. Philosophers have been trying to explain this to people for hundreds of years already. There has been no data that has come into existence to refute the position.

That's not a question of reality, it's a question of semantics. 

Oh? What gives you the right to tell me what I find real? Why is your idea that it is a question of semantics more worthy of consideration than mine of reality? It appears to me that you just don't like my position, so you're just going to dismiss, judge, and reject it. A prime example of invalidation based on nothing more than your desire to be right and prove me wrong. I can tell you right now, that will never happen.

If I told you the sky is blue and you corrected me by talking about prisms and visible light and molecules and red shift you'd be right, but I'm using common parlance in saying "the sky is blue today."  If, as in my other example, I said "the sky is purple" on a day when molecule scattering has caused it to be blue, we have a problem.

What problem would we have?

One of the major problems with the disorder for pwBPD is that feelings = facts, and the "facts" in many cases are tied to feelings about things that simply aren't true.  And that's my point. 

(I won't even address again what I said earlier about there really being no such thing as a "fact."

That last statement tells me, however, that you are missing the entire point of not invalidating another. One of the basic tenants is not to validate the invalid. So, if you see a different set of circumstances that give rise to the feelings, it's a good idea to not validate the circumstances. The feelings that the other person has however are what is to be validated.

If you know that feelings = facts to a pwBPD, then you can validate the actual feelings rather than the surface ones. By this I mean that if the pwBPD is angry about something, then validate the anger, not the source of the anger.
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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2016, 11:05:02 AM »

Now, this friend does their damnedest to validate the relative's feelings, but unless one of two things happen, the feeling does not abate:  a) friend acknowledges that aliens are in fact invading their loved one's body, or; b) clozapine to the rescue.

This is not validating feelings. This is attempting to validate the "facts" causing the feelings. To validate the feelings, your friend would only need to validate the fear (or whatever feeling) is being caused by the "aliens." Validate the valid, not the invalid. The fear is real to the other person even if the cause of the fear is not.

I think too often that last letter gets overlooked

I certainly won't dispute that. It happens because people tend to only use part of the tools available to them. In the moment of dysregulation is not the time to discuss the "truth." That should happen later. Attempting to reason a person out of their emotions will only serve to further frustrate the situation.

There are lots of situations where people just want to be heard.  I can do that all day.  There are others where people want their reality to be THE reality, and when that doesn't happen, you haven't heard them.

Then, you get to decide if you want those people in your life or not. That is a boundary for you to set and enforce. Though, it's certainly possible to allow a person to be heard without agreeing with them (which is another tenant of validation btw).
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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2016, 06:45:36 PM »

So, the other day my PwBPD was having a craving for "menudo" which (for those of you not in the know) is a tripe (beef stomach) chile stew. It's malodorously disgusting with a texture reminiscent of septic waste. She loves it. Calls it comfort food. Lots of people around here dig it, though empirically it resembles the detritus contained in a barf bag. Nasty, nasty innards.

Though whose culinary tastes are empirically accurate? If I told her that eating the nasty bits shouldn't be comforting and tasty, am I invalidating (her) valid or invalid feelings/perception (of course I didn't do that). Perception is a tricky thing. The solipsistic brain in a vat may not perceive "that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in its philosophy."  And as it has been demonstrated over and over in the venue of eyewitness identification--just how unreliable our unassailable perception may be. Prone to suggestibility, environmental influence and innate bias etc. Still, the eyewitness testifying in court is certain about what they saw. However, perception is situational and often obscured.

And will any progress be achieved by directly calling out said eyewitness's credibility, by stating that their sincerely held perception and belief is erroneous. No, they will unequivocally state--"I know what I saw"--"He or she did it". "I was there." Yet, when bias, suggestion, and environment obscure perception--and the resultant DNA evidence exonerates the misidentified perpetrator--does that invalidate the eyewitness's former sincerely held unshakeable perception/belief--albeit an erroneous one. Consequently, perception is a tricky matter.

As the little child attends his first movie with parent in tow. A trailer with a frightful monster appears on the screen--freaking said toddler out. He cries, "that's the monster under my bed" and panics. Will the parent's immediate reaction be to logically explain why the child's perception is illusory, or does he or she simply comfort and hug the child soothing feelings that are in disarray.

So you see, validating the disordered adult is not about whether their perception is accurate, but communing with them. Relating to their feelings on an intimate and compassionate level. Still, member "Icanteven" expresses valid thoughts/feelings that we can all relate to. Because when an irrational adult PwBPD expresses feelings in an attacking, blaming, combative, manner towards their companion day-in-day-out, it takes a toll--perhaps compromising the non's ability to compassionately validate. In those moments, remember perception is a tricky thing and while sincerely held feelings may not be rationally based they remain the product of childhood, trauma and genetic predisposition.

Pure validation does not ensure that life with a PwBPD will be butterflies and rainbows. Though it assists with defusing, soothing and communing. It permits one to survive with a pwBPD. However, once the non has achieved some proficiency at validating, the burden shifts--it becomes incumbent (IMO) upon the PwBPD to self-actualize, by learning and applying skills that were never nurtured during childhood. Consequently, learning how to operate beyond the scope of the default programming driving the engine of emotion. I'd define that as doing one's best and learning to relationally thrive on this blue orb that we all share.
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2016, 05:02:02 PM »

If someone feels a certain way, we can't always shift them toward our reality, unfortunately... .they are entitled to their feelings, no matter how misguided those feelings may seem to us. They are real to them.

I have beautiful friends who feel ugly, thin friends who feel fat, smart friends who feel dumb. It's sad they feel the way they do. I can't change that even if I totally disagree with them. This is how they feel, right or wrong. Accept it, acknowledge it, show support and empathy, move along. Maybe gently nudge them with bite sizes of "truth" that they are in fact beautiful, shapely, or intelligent. But take this too far and you risk invalidating them. 

Nothing more to add except to agree with Conundrum's description of menudo. So accurate! Toxic sludge. 

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