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Author Topic: I have to become independent again.  (Read 1270 times)
foggydew
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« on: August 24, 2016, 04:11:11 PM »

This has been... is... a steep and unpleasant learning curve. I wanted to save my unusual relationship, whatever it is. I found that the first thing I have to do is save myself. Save myself from the situation which means I need the relationship, and then I can consider the rest. Then maybe I can see my role in the dynamics better.
Friend actually phoned me. I'd been avoiding contacting him because I have become super-sensitive to any kind of rejection. So no calls, no social media... he generally ignores such things unless he initiates. He was friendly and normal but made sure I knew girlfriend had stayed with him the last 2 nights. She was Sometimes drunk and aggressive sometimes OK. He wanted to know how I was spending my time. Enjoying having a break, I said. From me? he asked. Yes. He tried to tell me that the problems were all gone now. He told me he had felt trapped.
I left it at that. No point in long distance phone calls.
The contact helped a bit... though I don't trust it. My first task is to try and get my stability back. Not easy. Here in my country it is easier to chat to strangers, and I do have a couple of friends here. But I have to become independent again. I have never, ever, felt as alone and invisible as the last 10 days and I have to ensure it doesn't happen again. In this state of mind I feel a nuisance and fear rejection (stupid really because most people like me).
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Meili
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2016, 09:27:46 AM »

I understand fearing rejection even though most people like you. I live that life too. It comes from my FOO and upbringing though, do you know where yours comes from?

I'm so glad to learn that you are working on your self and your stability. You are first and foremost in this equation! What are your plans for doing this?

I'm not sure what you meant when you wrote:

Save myself from the situation which means I need the relationship, and then I can consider the rest.

Can you please explain that?

You do sound a bit better though. Keep it up. We're here for you! 
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foggydew
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 11:09:50 AM »

This kind of fear only seems to have come recently - I've always been an outsider, and pretty comfortable with it. I'm just a bit different and can't buy into a lot of the current norms. Maybe from my FOO but maybe not.
What I meant with the part you quoted was that I need this relationship because there is nothing else, so I have to try and change that. But that is easier said than done.
Just spent a couple of hours with a neighbour... she's nice... but it seems I always find people who just want to talk endlessly. After a while that increases the feeling of being invisible. I also don't want to lean heavily on anyone, so I try to spread my contacts over time. I go out. I walk. I go to exhibitions. I approach people. I try to be amusing. I just keep hoping.
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Meili
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2016, 07:19:26 PM »

I hope that I'm not striking any cords, and I ask this with the utmost respect, but did the fear start after the death of your husband?

Also, if you'd like to, can you the "there is nothing else, so I have to try and change that. But that is easier said than done." Do you mean that you are trying to draw new things into your world so that there is something other than this relationship? I'm sorry for asking, but I don't want to assume things.
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foggydew
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2016, 01:47:19 AM »

Thanks for your questions. The fear of loss came after my husband's death, the fear of rejection more slowly. I put all I had into keeping him alive. Life had always been very busy - I was the only bread winner, loved my job, tried to cope with my husband's two adult children, one bipolar, the other schizophrenic. Then came my husband's illness and more stress. U BPD person came into our lives at this point, obviously needing contact. Husband saw a substitute for his now decreased son in him, and loved him.
Then suddenly everything was gone. Everything except u BPD friend.
And yes... I try to bring new things into my life. Travel. Musical instrument. Volunteering. Language.
But ... .I just feel pointless.
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Meili
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2016, 10:40:42 AM »

Feeling that you have no purpose is hard. I've spent most of my life there. It makes me happy that you're actively searching for your new purpose now though!

I'm guessing this is what you meant a few days ago when you said that all this has to do with existentialism?
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foggydew
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2016, 12:50:03 PM »

Indeed. Then tell me, dear  Meili, what are  your coping strategies?
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Meili
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2016, 02:56:25 PM »

I'm learning to make myself my own project and thus my own purpose. This is possibly the hardest lesson that I'm having to learn. I had to learn to find worth in myself that was not attached to how another viewed me.  Bullet: completed (click to insert in post) Then I had to find things that I enjoy doing that don't require another person.  Bullet: completed (click to insert in post) Now I have to make myself important enough to do them. I'm still working on that one.
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foggydew
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2016, 12:10:18 PM »

I think I can generally manage those things OK... .it seems there is something else going on within me. I don't even think about it but the tension increases... .but if I have contact with someone it goes away. Seem to spend a lot of time just looking for a few friendly words. Made the mistake of wishing friend a good weekend,  which he ignored, and thatdidnt help.
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foggydew
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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2016, 12:12:52 PM »

I get tunnel vision and panic.
Tonight I'll try a new village and see if there is someone to talk to.
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Meili
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2016, 12:25:02 PM »

Somewhere on here is a post by my, I think in the personal inventory section, about the fear and panic that I used to experience when I was alone. Someone responded to it and described how she feels when alone, and it was the perfect description of what I experienced. My throat would get tight, I felt like no matter what I did, I couldn't get enough air into my lungs; like I was suffocating. Do you experience something similar, or what are your body sensations when this happens?
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foggydew
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« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2016, 01:10:26 PM »

Meili, you are a dear. Thank you for your engagement.
No... my sensations are different... from the stomach. Painful, can't eat or drink, I cry, if it gets bad I see no reason to live and prolong this business. But when that starts I try to call someone or go make a nuisance of myself by going to anyone, no matter how little I know them. I try not to overburden them, keep it light. So. That is how it really is and I've not told anyone before.
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Meili
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2016, 02:09:53 PM »

Thank you!

It's good that you recognize what's happening and reach out to others when it does. Hopefully, we'll each be able to figure out a way to keep it from happening altogether.

I hope that all is going better for you now!
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foggydew
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2016, 12:51:10 PM »

Well... .I'm not NC but I haven't contacted him (or been contacted) since Friday, when I wished him a good weekend and he didn't answer. I'm struggling with this because I want to be normally friendly,not emotional or anything, but seem to have to fight with myself about it. Avoiding contact seems like giving it too much importance, yet being ignored throws me off track. Not sure how to deal with this.
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Meili
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2016, 04:01:13 PM »

What do you mean by avoiding contact? Like consciously reminding yourself not to reach out?
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foggydew
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2016, 04:31:29 PM »

Not reaching out, not reminding him that there is post for him in our house (he will actually know this) not posting things relating to him that we both enjoy on social media... not contacting him as I said I would by email...
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foggydew
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2016, 04:29:34 PM »

It annoys me no end. Why should I change my normal friendly behaviour? Why should I treat him any differently to any other of my closer friends? That is one of my needs. I need to like myself and approve of what I do. So I have to find some way of dealing with the emotional fallout of being ignored. And I will. But it is difficult. He ignored my factual friendly text and posted a text on social media intended to cause me unrest. His problem, not mine.
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Meili
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« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2016, 04:09:00 PM »

 

I hope that you're having a better day!

I agree, it is his problem and not yours.

It's too bad that you are the one who has to experience the emotions because of his choices though. No one likes being ignored, but if understand that pwBPD don't think the same way as others, and you can learn to not take his actions personally, it helps to reduce the effects on you.
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foggydew
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« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2016, 05:42:05 PM »

It was a very bad day yesterday, but two friends listened to me and that helped. It is sometimes so physically painful. Anyway, I got indirect information that his relationship seems to be making him happy (good) and that he and a friend will be going to our house in about 10 days, as he wants to rent out his flat. I intend to be there as I don't want him showing off in my premises and don't trust any of them. Maybe my sister in law can be there too.If he is in normal mode, I trust him, but in the weird modes plus alcohol anything could happen. Maybe he will stop ignoring me at some point.
Knowing these things helps, it means I can stand back and feel things less personally, just as you said, Meili. And it helps that I'm going home. Lousy holiday this has been. Isolated, hurt, worried. May it soon improve.
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foggydew
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2016, 05:03:22 PM »

He called today. And he's going to the flat with his unpleasant male friend this weekend, not in 10 days. I had expected it and will be there. He seemed relatively pleasant, assured me he hadn't wanted to throw me out of his life, handed the phone to girlfriend so we could talk to each other, (she asked me what I was doing at Christmas and told me she spent last Christmas alone blind drunk on the floor) and then he became confusing and gave conflicting information.
He probably wasn't sober.
And I just feel suspicious about the call. Sounding me out? Am I being too sensitive and suspicious?
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Meili
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2016, 09:53:52 AM »

What exactly is the suspicion?
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foggydew
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2016, 12:21:39 PM »

That I am being manipulated. Used. Kept quiet. It may be my own insecurities, and he is not as manipulative  as I fear. That it is just BPD. Thanks for asking the questions and keeping me thinking and not merely ruminating. What is really worrying me is now being in contact with this person of the extreme right, his friend. Who takes drugs ... and I don't mean marijuana. So they need me to be friendly.
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Meili
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2016, 01:42:10 PM »

I can see why it would concern you. But being strong enough to allow the pwBPD to make their own mistakes is part of what it takes to maintain a relationship with them. When we stop doing that, we become controlling. That can lead to the other person feeling shame about their choices and feel that we are telling them that they are not good enough. This can cause dysregulation. So, allowing them to fail can actually be a more kind act.
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foggydew
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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2016, 02:59:09 PM »

Yup, excellent point. That is OK... .it is how I am going to deal with these people that is worrying me... .without appearing to criticise. I would normally keep well away. I've already done a bit of validation... saying how good it is to see him finding contact, etc. But actually to take these people into my life as neighbours, contacts, where I am actually in an apparently weak position as an old migrant... .someone has already wished me a good trip home. It's OK when I feel OK...
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Meili
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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2016, 03:08:29 PM »

Do you mean that the friend and neighbor/girl being around when you're at the flat? If so, I can see why that would be bothersome. I would think that at that point, I would be focusing on my boundaries and how to enforce them if I were in your position.
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foggydew
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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2016, 05:05:24 PM »

The friend is probably going to move into the flat next to mine. U BPD person is well aware that I don't like this person and dislike his (illegal) ideas and activities. The girlfriend is less of a problem... .she is not a person I would like to know, but if she is his choice... .Boundaries are going to be essential here, as I will be the only person new neighbour will know. I don't want to be involved in more than the bare necessities.
It just seems so messy. Drugs, alcohol, really low social level (and I'm not usually discriminatory). If BPD persons mirror the people they are with... .well, another reason why I should strengthen myself up, find my kind of alternative society, but still be there.

Two days and I will meet at least the two friends, don't know if girlfriend will come too.
I'm really nervous... and physically afraid of feeling lonely. What will certainly happen is that friend won't have much time for me. I miss our friendship.
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patientandclear
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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2016, 09:40:13 PM »

I can see why it would concern you. But being strong enough to allow the pwBPD to make their own mistakes is part of what it takes to maintain a relationship with them. When we stop doing that, we become controlling. That can lead to the other person feeling shame about their choices and feel that we are telling them that they are not good enough. This can cause dysregulation. So, allowing them to fail can actually be a more kind act.

I think the idea of letting people make their own mistakes also entails letting people deal with the consequences of making them--including in our own dynamics. That MAY entail feelings of shame, and may result in accusations of being controlling. The idea is that you aren't governed by your need to avoid those dynamics.

Letting people make their own mistakes is not the same thing as letting people do whatever they want regardless of the impact on you with no consequences.

Maybe this can be boiled down to: if it doesn't actually effect you, don't try to manage or influence someone else's choices. But if it does directly effect you, use boundaries to protect yourself or use communications skills to express what you need. The latter is likely to be a much less popular course than the former, and may result in accusations of being controlling, but that doesn't mean it is (controlling).
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foggydew
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2016, 01:56:20 AM »

Well, they are coming today. I am expected to actually put up the unpleasant friend and his girlfriend. At first I said no way, and that I wasn't even sure if I want to see them at all. Later I called back and said I would meet them and then decide. My uPBD person talked to me for over an hour on the phone, didn't want to stop talking, and I could see how he began to mirror my ideas. But I can see it for what it is.
Let's see.
But I am coming with a different dynamic now. I am really angry with him, and have said so. Or I said I was angry with his actions, but understand he was in a bad place.
He doesn't seem to see there is any difference in our relationship.
He is bringing girlfriend with him too, but seems to be ambivalent about her. Let's see.
I need to meet them all together, look at their behaviour, and then decide how I am going to proceed. He really intends to let the flat to them, they will be my neighbours.
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Meili
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2016, 09:08:03 AM »

That seems like a nerve racking situation. Based on everything that you've written, I can't expect the meeting to go well, but I hope that I'm wrong. I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this.

Why did you back off your original position?
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foggydew
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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2016, 03:56:03 AM »

It happened. I backed off my original position because I wanted to get to know my possible new neighbours. Only the man came... and he turned out to be ok, an ally even. Girlfriend came too, and she is worse than my worst fears. She even told uBPD friend that I had hit her, poured beer over her and spat in her face. He knows I would never do such things. She really was unpleasant. His friend tried to convince him that this relationship is not ok, and he agrees to all anyone says, then goes back to her.
I'm truly thinking of cutting ties now, because this person is just not someone I want to have any contact with.
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Meili
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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2016, 09:46:18 AM »

It's good to hear that at least one of them was ok.

Watching people we care about implode and do self-destructive things is hard and it's hurts so badly. If cutting ties is what you need to protect yourself, then do so. It doesn't sound like the situation is getting any better. Is it?
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« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2016, 03:47:47 PM »

Well, after a particularly awful, hurtful time, I am managing to back off a bit. I have told some closer friends that I need contact and their support, have kept myself busy, and a bit of stability is returning. Even acquaintances who saw us together at the weekend have been offering me support and telling me that these people are draining me - it seems for the first time that they are seeing that I am in difficulties and are offering friendship. It helps a lot. I can't do anything as an island in the middle of all these problems, I can't survive.
UBPD friend's relationship with this dreadful woman hurts a lot. I don't want to know anything about it, but keep getting confronted with it. I think he wants to continue our friendship, but is very unstable himself at the moment, and has a lot of problems to deal with caused by his drinking and losing his driver's licence at the weekend. I don't want to confuse him, so I have merely offered help if he needs it, and left it at that. It isn't the time for demands or decisions on either side, that will come.
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Meili
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« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2016, 10:24:28 AM »

It's good to hear that you're finding support from friends in your time of need. Having a support network in place helps a lot to deal with all of the emotions that come from these types of relationships. It also sounds like they are validating you which has to feel good.

Have you tried establishing a boundary in which you refuse to talk to him about the other woman since it causes you distress?
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foggydew
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« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2016, 01:30:47 AM »

Meili, thanks again. I'm feeling much better now, have started to eat again, so I feel physically better, and have made an appointment with a new therapist for Monday. I don't so much mind that uBPD friend talks about his female friend, but I don't want to have to spend time with her or them both together. I'm a pretty tolerant person but she is really beyond everything... she threatens people, even poor souls she doesn't know, and is someone I wouldn't normally even contemplate dealing with. Really poison. Friend rang up last night, and Meili, I told him that she is his business, but I want nothing to do with her, and I don't want her to have a key to his flat if I am staying there. I don't want her to come into my flat either. He understood (or said so) and was pretty normal to me for a change. We are going to go to a language course together again.
This is/has been so complicated... .my own unresolved problems exacerbated by pretty malignant BPD behaviour. It really has nearly pushed me over the edge. But the contact here, and the support from people around me has helped (I felt so invisible before) so that I think I can get back to being me... .with my ideals and values. I talked to my SIL who agrees with me that uBPD friend has really many good qualities and that our family-type relationship is positive for us both. She deals with similar people a lot in her work. She told me a therapist colleague had told her that BPD sufferers take so much energy and effort that even well balanced, trained therapists hesitate to take them on because they doubt their own ability to cope... .so I don't have to feel ashamed of becoming a bit unbalanced. (A bit!). It seems that I have a pattern of being able to cope for a long time, then just going into meltdown. Have to find out how to change that. But there seems to be a future... .and maybe this relationship will be saved. I certainly will.
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« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2016, 11:11:51 AM »

That all sounds so positive! You sound so much better than when you first started posting. You should be so very proud of yourself for having the strength to survive all of this!

It's great to hear that he was receptive to your boundary. I hope that he does not force you to enforce it. Have you given any thought to what will happen if he violates it?

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« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2016, 04:32:18 PM »

Well, I think he gave it a go tonight, although only on the phone. He called, and just told me everything again that he told me yesterday, no real reason to call. I asked him how he was going to spend the evening, and he was evasive, so I said, with your girlfriend then. And he said, yes, she has just arrived. Well, either she has a key, or he called me when she was already there, and spoke to me in a language she doesn't know. Nice behaviour. If it continues I will withdraw my finances (which he needs right now). I will also make it clear that he may not use me to upset her.
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