Is fake crying/turning off and on tears a trait of BPD or psychopathy? Or both?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hey all

I recently talked with another social worker who used to work with the person I'm advocating for. We were talking about this young woman's ability to turn the tears on and off. One thing the SW told me this girl would do is cover her face when she was 'crying' but have a gap through two of her fingers so she could see the response of  the SW... .yikes.

I looked up fake crying on the internet, and one article said narcissists/psychopaths will often cover their face to give the impression of crying because they actually can't cry.

That being said, I have seen this girl 'real cry' before-it's usually when she doesn't get something she wants or isn't able to control the situation/actions of others.

I mean, what's the fine line between BPD and psychopathy? Keep in mind manipulativeness is a key trait for both!

[FeelingBitter]

Hey all

I recently talked with another social worker who used to work with the person I'm advocating for. We were talking about this young woman's ability to turn the tears on and off. One thing the SW told me this girl would do is cover her face when she was 'crying' but have a gap through two of her fingers so she could see the response of  the SW... .yikes.

I looked up fake crying on the internet, and one article said narcissists/psychopaths will often cover their face to give the impression of crying because they actually can't cry.

That being said, I have seen this girl 'real cry' before-it's usually when she doesn't get something she wants or isn't able to control the situation/actions of others.

I mean, what's the fine line between BPD and psychopathy? Keep in mind manipulativeness is a key trait for both!

[adaw]

Crying? If you tolerate that it will lead to something worse

[FeelingBitter]

Crying? If you tolerate that it will lead to something worse

Um what do you mean?

Actually, I think the former crisis counselor would shut her down as soon as she would start the theatrics by saying "well don't you think it could mean this?" etc etc.

But what do you mean 'it will lead to something worse?"

[enlighten me]

Funnily enough I was talking to my ex mother in law and her husband three days ago. They brought up how great she was at turning on the waterworks when all else had failed.

I wouldnt say it was a BPD trait just one tool that some use to get their way.

[FeelingBitter]

Funnily enough I was talking to my ex mother in law and her husband three days ago. They brought up how great she was at turning on the waterworks when all else had failed.

I wouldnt say it was a BPD trait just one tool that some use to get their way.

Right but aren't pwBPD's known for being manipulative? And isn't the use of fake crying to get what you want a form of manipulation?

[enlighten me]

Yes it is manipulative.

I see it more of a sign of emotional imaturity. Children do this to get their own way. A lot of BPD behaviours for me transfer directly to that of children. Look at some ofyour interactions and visualise a child doing it rather than an adult.

When I have done this I have been amazed at how easy it is to picture a child rather than an adult. I think this is where a lot of nons confusion comes from as it doesnt make sense for an adult to behave that way.

[bus boy]

My ex wife cried often enough. She told me no one ever made her cry as much as I did. Although I know a lot more about personality disorders I still feel pain from her telling me how horrible I was and how much I made her cry. I am co dependant and very soft hearted, easily  manuplated but in other ways, such as my family she couldn't control me and I think it drove her crazy. She endlessly tried to drive a wedge between my family and I. She made life hell for me and I was scared to talk about my family actually I was "forbidden" to talk about my family. Anything to do with my family was very uncomfortable but I refused to put them out of my life. She would go crazy sometimes out of her mind screaming and crying. We were ordered to family counselling she cried and agreed with the social worker, the second he was out of sight she turned the tears off just like that, another time she didn't like the way I gave her flowers for her b day, turned on the tears and told me I ruined her b day,  it was the worse one ever. I did the know there was a wrong way to give flowers. She used fear, threats of leaving, threats of violence, unspeakable verbal,mental and emotional abuse to control me and yes tears.

[FeelingBitter]

Yes it is manipulative.

I see it more of a sign of emotional imaturity. Children do this to get their own way. A lot of BPD behaviours for me transfer directly to that of children. Look at some ofyour interactions and visualise a child doing it rather than an adult.

When I have done this I have been amazed at how easy it is to picture a child rather than an adult. I think this is where a lot of nons confusion comes from as it doesnt make sense for an adult to behave that way.

That makes sense.

Still, fake crying (ie, no visible tears) and covering your face and peeking through your fingers to gauge the other person's response is a bit of a sophisticated manipulative tool for a child don't you think?

I guess I just don't understand what is the clear line between BPD and psychopathy, to be honest.

[adaw]

In my case the fake tears failed. So she 'developed' cancer. She went as far as pulling hair out of her head to convince me it's radiation. While she is at the doctor her car is standing outside the casino. Guess he moved premises? It is all trickery.

[enlighten me]

My ex wife faked having ME for three years and was bed ridden for nearly a year of that. A few moths after splitting up with me she was doing fun runs. I think she is co morbid BPD hpd.

Hurting yourself to gain sypathy or being ill is another thing along with crocodile tears that children use. They learn it gets a response from a very ealy age.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey FB-

I mean, what's the fine line between BPD and psychopathy? Keep in mind manipulativeness is a key trait for both!

There's actually a thick line between BPD and psychopathy, or Antisocial Personality Disorder as it's now called, and the motivations for behaviors are very different.

Check out the official diagnostic lists:

Borderline Personality Disorder

Antisocial Personality Disorder

And how long did it take us to figure out that our partner was trying to manipulate us?  Fake crying is different from real crying, and as adults we can tell the difference yes?  Maybe we fall for it a time or two, but then what?  Ideally we'd notice that our partner is trying to manipulate us, we could sit down and have a heart to heart conversation full of openness and honesty, and the truth about what was really going on would come out, or not, issues could be resolved, or not, and we could make decisions from there as to whether we stayed in the relationship or not.  There's value there though: if we knew our partner was trying to manipulate us and we stayed anyway, why?  What did we make that mean?  What beliefs about ourselves and our partner were we using to make it OK to accept that behavior?  Lots of growth potential digging there as we move forward yes?

[FeelingBitter]

My ex wife faked having ME for three years and was bed ridden for nearly a year of that. A few moths after splitting up with me she was doing fun runs. I think she is co morbid BPD hpd.

Hurting yourself to gain sypathy or being ill is another thing along with crocodile tears that children use. They learn it gets a response from a very ealy age.

Isn't that Manchausen's? Faking physical illness to treat mental illness?

[FeelingBitter]

Hey FB-

I mean, what's the fine line between BPD and psychopathy? Keep in mind manipulativeness is a key trait for both!

There's actually a thick line between BPD and psychopathy, or Antisocial Personality Disorder as it's now called, and the motivations for behaviors are very different.

Check out the official diagnostic lists:

Borderline Personality Disorder

Antisocial Personality Disorder

And how long did it take us to figure out that our partner was trying to manipulate us?  Fake crying is different from real crying, and as adults we can tell the difference yes?  Maybe we fall for it a time or two, but then what?  Ideally we'd notice that our partner is trying to manipulate us, we could sit down and have a heart to heart conversation full of openness and honesty, and the truth about what was really going on would come out, or not, issues could be resolved, or not, and we could make decisions from there as to whether we stayed in the relationship or not.  There's value there though: if we knew our partner was trying to manipulate us and we stayed anyway, why?  What did we make that mean?  What beliefs about ourselves and our partner were we using to make it OK to accept that behavior?  Lots of growth potential digging there as we move forward yes?

"These individuals may also be irresponsible and exploitative in their sexual relationships. They may have a history of many
sexual partners and may never have sustained a monogamous relationship."

Isn't that the same as BPD?

"Individuals with antisocial personality disorder also often have personality features that meet criteria for other personality disorders, particularly borderline, histrionic, and narcissistic personality disorders."

So I mean, that's a thin line right?

I dunno. Sometimes I wonder if the borderline diagnosis came up because we as a society are uncomfortable calling women psychopaths.

 

[Lilyroze]

I think empathy, compassion and kindness are important in the world or you do become bitter. Maybe it is time to give this girl over to another advocate perhaps so doesn't stress you too much. If she has been raped she is going to need serious help and counseling, as well as advocacy. Her faking or having other issues won't stop that, only add to. If she has not and for attention, she will need help, that maybe you can't provide at this time.

 No sense stressing your self out, evaluating her to the point of taking time from your life. Just some thoughts. Know this might be hard for you as well, hope you find some peace. This drama people can take away from those in real need. Have worked with court system and victims in need.

On another note would like to say in natural health field have seen many heal themselves of sickness with proper food, diet or stress removed. I myself have been a care taker and had a few issues come up in my health. Once LC and boundaries for no rages I am healing. So some who you might think faking might be dealing with stress then when divorced or broke up heal... .LOL Not saying that is case is some examples here. At one point they thought I had MS, ( now with all stress see how probably got that) refused to accept DX, worked out, started running, eliminated all MSG and preservatives, eat lots of raw and healed.

I have had some girlfriends heal many things once they washed the man out their hair and same for some men. So stress can really harm many. Understand there will be those who can't cope so fake, but there is another side to coin.

On same note, crying helps get emotions out, heal people or quite frankly healthier then keeping in. Yes irritating when there are some who fake, manipulate etc. Easier to ignore those and not feed it and give care to those who really are in need or sorrowful.

I have someone who has a physical disability due to work injury. He has always had my care, concern and sympathy. To the point now realized yes he has that, has been healing and "getting ill", going back to hospital, or using to not help or do anything or manipulate outcomes of needed responsibilities. So do understand how frustrating it is to face, and deal with that.

The fact they will not look within, acknowledge, learn, grow from or change due to BPD. It makes a lot of stress for a care-taking type, who wants to fix. Once you see that though, you can then set boundaries, choose to walk away and make them responsible or deal with their games ( many at a subconscious level as they never matured or know how to deal with these). Many of them act the age of 4-9 so that is what you have to accept you are dealing with.

If someone you love and want to stay with by all means, read up, get books, learn to communicate better, to help teach them how to, validate, give them positives in your life to concentrate on. Above all self care and self love as well as compassion for yourself. If you chose to go, learn and don't let it ruin your life, make your bitter or obsessed with it and not seeing the joy in life. Just my thoughts.

Once I realized the disorder, could put a name to it, and not have to take the rages, guilt or hurt to heart anymore, was wonderful. Helped me immensely to heal, learn and take responsibility for my boundaries and their putting me in FOG.

ETA: see your new comment. Yes there are always going to be cluster B people, many with mental disorders. You can read up on, study and see if the DX fits, but still not be equipped to DX. What is your goal is it to get her more help, recommend it for her? Again at this point if you are so bitter about it, time to pass the person on,best for them and  you. That is what is usually recommended. I wish you well on your journey of peace. I think it is great you have tried to help, advocate, give her all you can, set boundaries and learn about this all.  Good luck to you and her.

[fromheeltoheal]

"These individuals may also be irresponsible and exploitative in their sexual relationships. They may have a history of many
sexual partners and may never have sustained a monogamous relationship."

Isn't that the same as BPD?

The behaviors can be similar but the motivation is different.  A borderline may have sexual relationships to attach, to feel whole, and/or to soothe emotions they can't find a way to soothe otherwise.

"Individuals with antisocial personality disorder also often have personality features that meet criteria for other personality disorders, particularly borderline, histrionic, and narcissistic personality disorders."

So I mean, that's a thin line right?

I dunno. Sometimes I wonder if the borderline diagnosis came up because we as a society are uncomfortable calling women psychopaths.

Yes, with multiple traits, the probability of comorbidity and the fact everyone's different, a clinical diagnosis is complex and best left to mental health professionals.  And while the clinical side of the disorders can help us clear up confusion as to why people in our lives behave the way they do, it's the behaviors themselves and how they affect us that really matter.  Is the clinical information helping with your detachment from the person in your life FB?

[Lilyroze]

Also thought I would note if you are not aware that being an advocate, or working with victims, court cases or individuals with certain rights, you have a responsibility to make sure you are not "cyberlibel". As she could sue, you could lose a license if you have one, or put your agency in danger by putting someones details out for others to judge, peruse or possibly know who they are.

I know if I had a family or friend that was rape victim, and their "advocate" was complaining I would hope they would pass them on, not DX them on the net, and get help within agency to deal with or graciously pass on. Only saying as have worked in system with victims and most times there are strict rules, laws and protocols in place.

Again good luck to you. Only putting this so in case you didn't know that this might be a possible problem. Have seen things like this in past before the court cases that are in progress now for such things. Nightmare, and hurtful for an already victim. BPD or not, no one deserves rape. Again if she was not then she needs other help you can't provide.

[FeelingBitter]

Also thought I would note if you are not aware that being an advocate, or working with victims, court cases or individuals with certain rights, you have a responsibility to make sure you are not "cyberlibel". As she could sue, you could lose a license if you have one, or put your agency in danger by putting someones details out for others to judge, peruse or possibly know who they are.

I know if I had a family or friend that was rape victim, and their "advocate" was complaining I would hope they would pass them on, not DX them on the net, and get help within agency to deal with or graciously pass on. Only saying as have worked in system with victims and most times there are strict rules, laws and protocols in place.

Again good luck to you. Only putting this so in case you didn't know that this might be a possible problem. Have seen things like this in past before the court cases that are in progress now for such things. Nightmare, and hurtful for an already victim. BPD or not, no one deserves rape. Again if she was not then she needs other help you can't provide.

I get your concern but I don't work with an official agency, nor do I have any license that can be taken away, so I'm good. Not to mention the details in this case are pretty vague and I don't think she'd be able to identify herself in them. Especially since she hasn't even been officially diagnosed, so I doubt she's searching for info on this disorder.

Second, no one said she wasn't raped, or that she deserves it. i am very compassionate towards her situation. But I am someone who likes to deeply understand everything I am involved with. My question about her is really a broader question about where the line is between BPD and anti-social PD, because it all seems very vague to me. I mean, I'm sure she's BPD, esp since she has the abandonment fears, but I don't get why both disorders have certain traits in common and yet most people don't get diagnosed with both, you know?

Als

[FeelingBitter]

Yes, with multiple traits, the probability of comorbidity and the fact everyone's different, a clinical diagnosis is complex and best left to mental health professionals.  And while the clinical side of the disorders can help us clear up confusion as to why people in our lives behave the way they do, it's the behaviors themselves and how they affect us that really matter.  Is the clinical information helping with your detachment from the person in your life FB?
[/quote]

Yes, it is. Understanding why she acts the way she does and what her motivations are makes me take it a lot less personally and helps me feel less guilty about setting boundaries with her. So thank you for this.

[Lilyroze]

Understand  but still see it is a criminal case so ethically, and judicial wise this conversation could cause many issues, as well as someone's rights are being violated ( whether you consider it or not does not mean the court would not)  and would and should be considered highly questionable.

It could put her whole case at risk if any side saw this or could tie information. It is not beyond the realm in criminal cases to have things looked into, to have something thrown out or use against victim.

It is not about you so much as you are the advocate, so meaning yes you might not lose a license. Though I am glad you are fine.  If you don't want to deal with the person be honest and move her on to someone. She came for advocacy of a rape not to be DX or analyzed on a forum. It could even be a BF, family member or herself that could see this for many reasons. Being here for help for another and recognizing the case. Unethical, sorry.  I am only looking out for a rape victim so they are not victimized twice, not to give you a hard time. I give kudos for your efforts.

[Lilyroze]

sorry to late to modify there is state statues, federal and witness as well as confidentiality of the sexual assault surviver in play here, then the next level of court. You then have the victim advocate confidentiality privilege. You might even have non profit status at risk. The there is a specific law for criminal defense lawyers to use and won't mention that here as I am advocating for a victim.

[Fr4nz]

Yes it is manipulative.

I see it more of a sign of emotional imaturity. Children do this to get their own way. A lot of BPD behaviours for me transfer directly to that of children. Look at some ofyour interactions and visualise a child doing it rather than an adult.

When I have done this I have been amazed at how easy it is to picture a child rather than an adult. I think this is where a lot of nons confusion comes from as it doesnt make sense for an adult to behave that way.

I completely agree with Enlightment, this is plain emotional immaturity.

Some time ago I dated a woman who is a mum of a 3 years old girl; well, what struck me was the similarities between the temper tantrums of the little girl and the memories of the fights I had with my ex.

I guess this is related to the well-known BPDs emotional immaturity, which makes them change their mood in the blink of an eye and makes them unable to manage emotions -- this especially if they are under some stress or they cannot get what they want.

Anyway, it is possible that, if other traits of other disorders are present, the act of crying can be just merely manipulative... .

[FeelingBitter]

sorry to late to modify there is state statues, federal and witness as well as confidentiality of the sexual assault surviver in play here, then the next level of court. You then have the victim advocate confidentiality privilege. You might even have non profit status at risk. The there is a specific law for criminal defense lawyers to use and won't mention that here as I am advocating for a victim.

I totally get what you are saying, and I'll ask the admin to remove this thread, but just fyi 1) I am not connected with a non-profit 2) She is working with another certified advocate in her criminal case. I am not working with her on that 3) I am not certified. There is absolutely nothing to lose for me, and there have been no identifying details in any of my posts, so I really think it's fine. Again, she hasn't been diagnosed with BPD by her counselor(yet), it's not on her family's radar, so the chances of a family or friend stumbling on this site and combing through this thread and identifying her through very vague descriptions of her behavior which let's be honest here, could be seen in ANY pwBPD is slim to none imo.

Also with respect, I have been working with her for the last eight months, I've spent hundreds of hours with her, and I've been one of her fiercest believers/advocates soo. I think it's ok for me to go on this thread and vent and try to get help. I've referred her to someone else for a lot of her case so trust me, I'm setting boundaries and am already distancing myself.

[FeelingBitter]

Yes it is manipulative.

I see it more of a sign of emotional imaturity. Children do this to get their own way. A lot of BPD behaviours for me transfer directly to that of children. Look at some ofyour interactions and visualise a child doing it rather than an adult.

When I have done this I have been amazed at how easy it is to picture a child rather than an adult. I think this is where a lot of nons confusion comes from as it doesnt make sense for an adult to behave that way.

I completely agree with Enlightment, this is plain emotional immaturity.

Some time ago I dated a woman who is a mum of a 3 years old girl; well, what struck me was the similarities between the temper tantrums of the little girl and the memories of the fights I had with my ex.

I guess this is related to the well-known BPDs emotional immaturity, which makes them change their mood in the blink of an eye and makes them unable to manage emotions -- this especially if they are under some stress or they cannot get what they want.

Anyway, it is possible that, if other traits of other disorders are present, the act of crying can be just merely manipulative... .

Interesting. Yes I think I just need to go back to the issue of emotional dysregulation, which, along with abandonment, seems to be the second most defining feature of BPD.

[fromheeltoheal]

Interesting. Yes I think I just need to go back to the issue of emotional dysregulation, which, along with abandonment, seems to be the second most defining feature of BPD.

Yes, and along with the fear of abandonment the fear of engulfment, both of which are triggered by intimacy, 'triggered' being dysregulated.

[FeelingBitter]

Interesting. Yes I think I just need to go back to the issue of emotional dysregulation, which, along with abandonment, seems to be the second most defining feature of BPD.

Yes, and along with the fear of abandonment the fear of engulfment, both of which are triggered by intimacy, 'triggered' being dysregulated.

"the fear of engulfment" what do you mean by this?

[fromheeltoheal]

"the fear of engulfment" what do you mean by this?

Borderline personality disorder forms as a result of someone not successfully detaching from their primary caregiver and weathering the abandonment depression, as it's termed, a phase most of us go through in our development towards becoming autonomous individuals with a "self" of our own.  Borderlines don't do that, they get stuck, so they spend a lifetime looking to attach to someone to become whole, a return to that earliest fusing with their primary caregiver.  And that attachment is not a "you complete me" Hallmark card vibe, it's a fusing of psyches to literally create one "self", because a borderline doesn't have one of their own.  So once attached, the borderline fears abandonment, borderlines can report they feel like they literally don't exist at all without an attachment, that's something to fear, but also, if you've created one "self" from two people, where do you draw the line between them?  You don't, there isn't one, so if a borderline gets too close to the attachment, they fear losing "themselves" entirely in that other person.  Fear of engulfment.  So the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment are always there, the challenge being to straddle the fence between them, which is always moving.  Quite the challenge.  :)oes that make a little sense?

[FeelingBitter]

"the fear of engulfment" what do you mean by this?

Borderline personality disorder forms as a result of someone not successfully detaching from their primary caregiver and weathering the abandonment depression, as it's termed, a phase most of us go through in our development towards becoming autonomous individuals with a "self" of our own.  Borderlines don't do that, they get stuck, so they spend a lifetime looking to attach to someone to become whole, a return to that earliest fusing with their primary caregiver.  And that attachment is not a "you complete me" Hallmark card vibe, it's a fusing of psyches to literally create one "self", because a borderline doesn't have one of their own.  So once attached, the borderline fears abandonment, borderlines can report they feel like they literally don't exist at all without an attachment, that's something to fear, but also, if you've created one "self" from two people, where do you draw the line between them?  You don't, there isn't one, so if a borderline gets too close to the attachment, they fear losing "themselves" entirely in that other person.  Fear of engulfment.  So the opposing fears of abandonment and engulfment are always there, the challenge being to straddle the fence between them, which is always moving.  Quite the challenge.  :)oes that make a little sense?

Wow. All I can say is that I am REALLY glad I don't have this disease. Jesus.

Is this why borderlines push people away while simultaneously expressing fear of abandonment?

So borderline is because of someone "not detaching primarily from their caregiver' - what exactly does that mean?

I mean, I now think my ex-boyfriend is borderline. He had cancer in  high school and his mom was really there for him and he had MAJOR abandonment issues and was always freaking out anytime I would hang out with anyone but him. He also told me several times he 'didn't know who he was' and he just HAD to be in a relationship and whenever he's in a relationship he molds himself to that person. So it makes sense to me that in that case, he never detached properly from his mom who helped him through trauma.

But I thought a lot of borderlines experienced neglect/abandonment as children so how is that 'not detaching from primary caregiver"?

[fromheeltoheal]

Wow. All I can say is that I am REALLY glad I don't have this disease. Jesus.

Is this why borderlines push people away while simultaneously expressing fear of abandonment?

Well, it's a disorder, not a disease, a developmental disorder, meaning at some point in the first few years of life ordered development became disordered.

And yes, get too close, borderline fears engulfment, push away, get too far, borderline fears abandonment, pull back, the two opposing fears causing the push/pull behavior.  The title of the book I Hate You Don't Leave Me sums it up pretty well.

So borderline is because of someone "not detaching primarily from their caregiver' - what exactly does that mean?

Before we're born and slightly thereafter we don't distinguish between ourselves and our mother, to us we're one person, not a stretch really since we are or just were inside her, but eventually we discover there's a "me" and a "her", two separate entities with separate bodies, and once in a while mom leaves for a minute, leaves us there in our crib.  Is she coming back?  Scary, because what if she doesn't?  That causes abandonment depression, a normal part of development, and most of us make it through that just fine, on the way to becoming an autonomous individual with a self of our own, and that detachment continues for a few years as we discover our bodies and the world separate from mom.  A borderline never does that, they get stuck at the abandonment depression stage, never transcending it, could be a few reasons or causes, but the detachment never happens, so attaching to someone becomes mandatory to survive.  Of course a borderline couldn't articulate it like that, it just shows up as feelings, intense ones.

I mean, I now think my ex-boyfriend is borderline. He had cancer in  high school and his mom was really there for him and he had MAJOR abandonment issues and was always freaking out anytime I would hang out with anyone but him. He also told me several times he 'didn't know who he was' and he just HAD to be in a relationship and whenever he's in a relationship he molds himself to that person. So it makes sense to me that in that case, he never detached properly from his mom who helped him through trauma.

Sounds like borderline traits all over that, fear of abandonment, no sense of self, fusing with another personality, although the disordered development happens in the first few years of life, when the personality is still forming, so it literally gets hardwired into the personality; the stuff in his teen years was way after that, although professionals won't diagnose anyone under 18, and the traits may not significantly manifest until then.

But I thought a lot of borderlines experienced neglect/abandonment as children so how is that 'not detaching from primary caregiver"?

Neglect could be a cause, as could abandonment, abuse, and the person's temperament: traumatic for one person may be tolerable for another.  Also, another cause could be a mother who won't let the kid detach for her own reasons, never leaves him alone, never lets him get far, always close physical contact, so there's no opportunity to detach.  Many possibilities, the common thread being the lack of successful detachment and development of a self.

[FeelingBitter]

Wow. All I can say is that I am REALLY glad I don't have this disease. Jesus.

Is this why borderlines push people away while simultaneously expressing fear of abandonment?

Well, it's a disorder, not a disease, a developmental disorder, meaning at some point in the first few years of life ordered development became disordered.

And yes, get too close, borderline fears engulfment, push away, get too far, borderline fears abandonment, pull back, the two opposing fears causing the push/pull behavior.  The title of the book I Hate You Don't Leave Me sums it up pretty well.

So borderline is because of someone "not detaching primarily from their caregiver' - what exactly does that mean?

Before we're born and slightly thereafter we don't distinguish between ourselves and our mother, to us we're one person, not a stretch really since we are or just were inside her, but eventually we discover there's a "me" and a "her", two separate entities with separate bodies, and once in a while mom leaves for a minute, leaves us there in our crib.  Is she coming back?  Scary, because what if she doesn't?  That causes abandonment depression, a normal part of development, and most of us make it through that just fine, on the way to becoming an autonomous individual with a self of our own, and that detachment continues for a few years as we discover our bodies and the world separate from mom.  A borderline never does that, they get stuck at the abandonment depression stage, never transcending it, could be a few reasons or causes, but the detachment never happens, so attaching to someone becomes mandatory to survive.  Of course a borderline couldn't articulate it like that, it just shows up as feelings, intense ones.

I mean, I now think my ex-boyfriend is borderline. He had cancer in  high school and his mom was really there for him and he had MAJOR abandonment issues and was always freaking out anytime I would hang out with anyone but him. He also told me several times he 'didn't know who he was' and he just HAD to be in a relationship and whenever he's in a relationship he molds himself to that person. So it makes sense to me that in that case, he never detached properly from his mom who helped him through trauma.

Sounds like borderline traits all over that, fear of abandonment, no sense of self, fusing with another personality, although the disordered development happens in the first few years of life, when the personality is still forming, so it literally gets hardwired into the personality; the stuff in his teen years was way after that, although professionals won't diagnose anyone under 18, and the traits may not significantly manifest until then.

But I thought a lot of borderlines experienced neglect/abandonment as children so how is that 'not detaching from primary caregiver"?

Neglect could be a cause, as could abandonment, abuse, and the person's temperament: traumatic for one person may be tolerable for another.  Also, another cause could be a mother who won't let the kid detach for her own reasons, never leaves him alone, never lets him get far, always close physical contact, so there's no opportunity to detach.  Many possibilities, the common thread being the lack of successful detachment and development of a self.

Wow thank you so much for this. Very helpful! It seems the lack of successful detachment could in many ways be genetic, ie when you said "most people successfully detach" but borderlines don't/are unable to. I do know that both of the people with BPD i know have complex relationships with their mother though. So it's interesting... .