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HopeForPeace

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« on: October 05, 2016, 11:51:21 AM »

Hello,

I'm hoping to connect with other women here who have daughters-in-law with BPD. My joining this group may be somewhat premature, as my son hasn't yet married my future DIL. The wedding is in two weeks. But what has transpired over the course of their engagement has scared me to death.

My son's fiancée came on very strong to my husband and me while she was dating our son. After spending very little time with us, she started sending us notes saying how wonderful we are and how much she loved us. It was at once flattering and disconcerting. That effusive behavior continued for the entire year they dated.

They got engaged in early June and soon announced they were getting married in four months. My husband and I thought that was awfully fast and asked if they would consider waiting until spring. Her parents expressed the same concern to us (but when the subject came up in conversation with the kids, her parents denied ever having said anything!). The fiancée got angry with my husband and me for even suggesting that they wait. She said, "It wouldn't matter how long we waited -- you'd still come up with a reason for us not to get married." I have no idea where that thought came from, but it was absurd. Anyway, that was the first red flag.

My son's fiancée was all about involving me in the wedding planning. When I stepped up, DIL kept me very busy running on wild goose chases. She'd have me check out things (venues, florists); I'd spend time making calls and visiting places, but when I'd report back, DIL would say she wasn't interested in that anymore and was on to something else. No "thank you" or "I'm sorry you spent time on that." It was like she didn't care, or worse, like she thought I was stupid that I couldn't read her mind and know I was wasting my time. Red flag #2.

To make a long story short, that thoughtless behavior continued. By early July I was thoroughly confused, frustrated and annoyed. So my husband and I tried to sit down with our son and his fiancée, who were visiting for the weekend, to figure out where the disconnect was. Both young people were shockingly rude. After making no headway, I finally got up and left the room. I minimized conversation with them the rest of the day. (Circular conversations are now our norm. I try to ask what I think is a reasonable question. DIL latches on to some wildly tangential point and drives us into the ground with it. Other times she sits next to our son while he's on the phone. She won't talk directly to us but whispers instructions to him, telling him what to say to us.)

The next day my son and his fiancée demanded to know why I was upset. As I tried to explain, they countered with more rude, dismissive, hurtful remarks and accusations. I was blamed for everything. When I mentioned things that were said in previous conversations, the fiancée sat there and claimed the conversations never took place! Told me I was imagining things. I was stunned. So major red flag #3.

This kind of thing continued until the end of July, when we got a call from our son. He announced he'd established some "boundaries." We were to have no contact with his fiancée until after the wedding. We could call and talk to him but no emails or texts and nothing about the wedding. I was also to apologize to his fiancée for confronting her on her behavior. (I subsequently did and she had yet to acknowledge it.) Our son said that if we didn't honor the boundaries, they would not see us for Thanksgiving or Christmas. Of course, I realize those aren't boundaries. They are threats and ultimatums -- emotional blackmail.

There was a bridal shower for DIL last month. I was told I better go or there would be more problems. I went. DIL didn't speak to me, while fawning over everyone around me. I felt embarrassed and humiliated.

It's a nightmare. I've never experienced this kind of craziness. I don't know what to do. My husband and I have been meeting with our pastor, who knows our son very well; she's aghast. We're also scheduled to see a therapist this week.

My husband and I have had an excellent, very close relationship with our son for all of his 31 years. We are at a loss trying to understand how he can think his new behavior, and that of his fiancée, is appropriate, much less loving.

I have a cousin with BPD, so am familiar with the unusual behaviors, black-and-white thinking, distortions of the truth, blame-shifting, scapegoating, circular arguments, cutting off and so on. My husband started saying that DIL reminds him a lot of that cousin. So here I am. I think our future DIL has BPD and I need help.

Thank you!
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Kwamina
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2016, 02:48:41 PM »

Hi HopeForPeace

Welcome to bpdfamily and I really do hope you find some peace. It definitely is difficult to see your child get involved with someone who appears to have BPD and then to see how your child's behavior also changes.

You have a cousin with BPD and were already familiar with certain BPD traits. To help you get a better understanding of what's going on here and why your son is behaving the way he is, it might help to explore our material about FOG which stands for Fear, Obligation and Guilt. Here's a short excerpt:
Excerpt
... .fear, obligation or guilt ("FOG" are the transactional dynamics at play between the controller and the person being controlled.  Understanding these dynamics are useful to anyone trying to extricate themselves from the controlling behavior by another person and deal with their own compulsions to do things that are uncomfortable, undesirable, burdensome, or self-sacrificing for others.

Do you feel like this applies to your son's relationship with your (future) DIL? Do you feel like he lets himself be controlled by her out of fear, obligation and/or guilt? You can read more about this subject here:
Fear, Obligation And Guilt: How We Allow Loved Ones To Control Us

You also mention how circular conversations have become the norm. Those types of conversations can be very draining and frustrating. We describe some tools on this site that might help you better deal with these situations, one of them is J.A.D.E.:
Stopping circular arguments and dealing with false accusations: Don't J.A.D.E (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain)

Were you already familiar with the concept of J.A.D.E.?

Take care

The Board Parrot
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2016, 05:04:08 PM »


HEY HopeForPeace:  

I'd like to join Kwamina in welcoming you.  I think we were both writing replies around the same time.

I'm so sorry about the situation with your soon to be DIL.  I have a uBPD sister, so I have a little different situation.  We all tend to deal with some similar behavior problems, when it comes to BPD.  Your post is very similar to others who have posted about a BPD DIL, where the dynamics between the son and DIL sound almost exactly like your situation.

It's possible that she is doing some SPLITTING.  Sounds like you were painted white (all good), but may now be painted black (all bad).

Did your son have many relationships prior to his fiance?  Could he have codependent tendencies?

What you see in regard to your DIL will likely be what you will deal with in the future.  You won't be able to change her, only the way you interact and react.  The best thing you can do is to gain as much understanding about BPD as you can and to use the suggested communication tools.  With some strategy, she might split you back to white (favored) again.

After you check out the links Kwamina suggested, the two below might, also, be helpful:

VALIDATION

COMMUNICATIONS


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HopeForPeace

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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2016, 05:30:28 PM »

Thank you so much, Kwamina. Your reply is very helpful. Yes, I can clearly see how our son could be caught in FOG. He and his fiancée met here in our hometown. He got a new job -- one she fully supported -- about 300 miles away. He moved in February, and she moved in July. Already we've heard her say that he took her away from her life here, from her network of friends (i.e., co-workers -- she appears to have few friends outside of work), from her job and from everything she loves about this area. I can easily hear her turning that around to try to make him feel like he "owes" her after she "gave up" so much for him. And our son, being the kind and ncompassionate guy he is, would feel a huge sense of responsibility to try to keep her happy.

He seems to see her as some kind of fragile, vulnerable creature. He told us when he set those "boundaries" that he was doing it to protect her from us. We were flabbergasted! We are not cruel, abusive people, and our son knows that! We've always had a loving family life. But now I feel like some kind of horrible monster.

I appreciate the J.A.D.E. info. That looks very helpful, and we definitely need help with these exhausting, nonproductive circular discussions.

I look forward to being a member of this group.
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2016, 08:17:18 PM »

Let me join the others here to welcome you, HopeForPeace  I am so glad that you are reaching out to our community here. There is a lot of support from members who are going through similar issues, as well as tons of helpful information to guide your steps.

I am very sorry for the struggle that is ensuing in your lives now. You've taken some really good steps to help give you tools for your toolbox, such as the reading you've done and seeing your pastor and now a T. Do you know if the T is familiar with BPD?

To give you a small hint of insight into some of the dynamics that may be going on when your son "set up boundaries," I can very clearly recall my uBPDm demanding that my dad do the exact same thing. She would argue that he didn't think her important, because if he really did and loved her, then he would march right over to his parent's house (literally one house away from us) and defend her to the hilt. She called him every name in the book if he wouldn't. How he struggled, loving his family, being mad at them too sometimes, yet wanting to keep the peace within our house. He vascillated back and forth, and even up til the time he died last year, he said once again, "Maybe I could've done a better job of defending your mother." How sad for him that 30+ years after their divorce he still thought he could've changed his behavior to 'fix' what she needed.

BPDs are very tenacious in their behaviors and demands as you've discovered. As Kwamina and Naughty Nibbler shared, the most helpful thing you can do is work on how you react and interact. It's a tough battle. No two ways around it, but I have confidence in you because I see your desire to be healthy, as much as you can. Hooray for you to be working on this so early in the relationship!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

 
Wools

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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 05:11:23 AM »

Hi Hope for Peace,

This is heartbreaking to watch. Learn about the Karpman (Drama) triangle. It was at play in my FOO and the relationship between my BPD mother and father. I experienced it as an adult daughter and it was then that I understood how my father's family must have felt.

I didn't hear these stories until I was much older, after all, they would not have spoken about my mother like that when I was a child. I learned that my grandmother didn't like my mother from the get go and neither did my father's siblings. ( don't know about grandpa- he was pretty quiet, but he probably felt the same way).

It was normal in their era for couples to marry quickly. Apparently my father's family didn't meet my mother until they were engaged. They lived a distance away. My father's family remarked that they hardly saw them, or us kids when we were very little. My mother and father's family are cordial together but dislike each other.

Children are cute and manageable when they are little, but as they grow, they have minds of their own. During summers and school holidays, my mother wasn't able to cope with the task of parenting us, not because we were bad kids ( we were not) but because all kids can be challenging and we were beginning to see that all wasn't OK in our family. It was at these times that my father's FOO offered to have us stay with them. This is significant - as my mother's FOO did not. I think your son is similar to my father in that he knows his family was a good family, a safe place for us, but he also wanted to keep my mother happy. He had taken on a lot of the parenting, and he had to work, so it helped him to have us spend time with his family, and if mom was overwhelmed by parenting, she was fine with that too.

Those times with Dad's FOO felt like paradise to us. We had a lot of fun with our cousins and my Dad's family was good to us. It also showed us what "normal" was.

Two subsequent generations are closer to my father's FOO. My mother's FOO is estranged from us ( by their own choice). My sibs and I are much closer to his side, and my kids are close to their cousins on that side.

This isn't to change your grief and concern for your son. You didn't do anything wrong. However, when you expressed your concern about the quick marriage, you entered the triangle as "persecutor".  Your son's fiance became "victim", and he stepped in as "rescuer".

"Victim" and "Rescuer" were the strongest bonds between my parents. If we kids acted up- as kids do- she took victim role, dad took rescuer and punished us. As an adult, I expressed concern for him when he was ill. ( he is deceased). The same dynamics resulted in my mother painting me black to him, putting him in a position to choose. He made his choice- it was always my mother.

My mother sees people as either being on her side or not on her side. Black and white thinking. If she feels threatened by anyone, then she rallies people to her side against the person or people she feels threatened by.

I am so sorry that you are in this position. I know you fear for your son. He seems to have chosen a difficult situation. I think you are very wise to learn about BPD and the dynamics in such relationship. I know that it is confusing to see your son behave this way towards you. I don't think at the moment he is quite aware that he is also betraying himself- by denying the strong bond he has had with his family. He is at the moment, focused on his fiance and her emotional wishes.

My only advice is to look at this through a very long term lens. You and I are about the same generation, and I have children now. My parents' marriage was a difficult one. Surely it grieved my grandparents to witness this. I know they must have missed seeing us when we were little if they didn't see us often, but children grow, we have our own opinions, then we make choices, and we gravitated towards our father's FOO.

Although your impulse was to rescue your son ( It makes sense) when you did this- you stepped on the triangle. There are 3 roles- and they change like musical chairs. You stepped on as rescuer ( son as victim of BPD fiance) but the positions changed. She perceived you as persecutor, her as victim. Once in "victim" mode, ( at least for my mother) anything goes- painting persecutor black, saying things that aren't true, and rallying the rescuer-partner to her side against the persecutor.

The only solution I know to this is to step off the triangle- not take on any of the roles- don't approach your son as victim ( how hurt you are) and do not rescue. Let your son know you are supportive of him and his new family no matter what, and let the drama be between them. This is his decision to work out. But it may not mean a division from your family in the long run.

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HopeForPeace

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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 11:48:20 AM »

Hi Naughty Nibbler,

Thank you very much for your reply. In between getting things ready for the wedding, I've been reading about BPD, and yesterday my husband and I saw a therapist.

Excerpt
It's possible that she is doing some SPLITTING.  Sounds like you were painted white (all good), but may now be painted black (all bad).

I do think our future DIL is doing some splitting. I felt like I went from being this wonderful, faultless (and unrealistic) person one day to being a horrible, can-do-nothing-right (and equally unrealistic) person the next. I know I got terribly frustrated with future DIL in July and said some things I wish I hadn't, but my husband and I can't figure out what I said that warranted being thrown under the bus and out of the wedding planning. The most upsetting thing is her seeming inability to relent in any way. I've apologized, I've tried to make amends, and she still refuses to have anything to do with me (except to accept my shower gifts and cash our checks for wedding expenses).

However, I've seen this behavior before. I mentioned that I have a BPD cousin (she's been diagnosed). We were close as adults for several years. I always had the feeling, though, that it wasn't safe to disagree with her. I'd try to frame things so it looked like I was agreeing. Ultimately, it got too burdensome -- I felt that I was compromising my integrity always to go along with her version of things. So about a year ago I took exception to something she said. She blew up, went on a tirade about what a horrible person I am, ripped my character to shreds and cut off contact. It was so bizarre because the thing I disagreed about didn't seem like a big deal: I took offense at a nasty comment her husband made about one of my closest friends. She said his comment showed how "astute" he was; I said it felt rude and inappropriate.

So when future DIL cut off, it felt vaguely familiar. I'm also familiar with splitting because my mother is an uNPD (although after reading about BPD, I'm wondering if she's more borderline than narcissistic; it's hard to say). My mother split my sister and me: I was the black sheep/scapegoat, and my sister was the golden child. Sister and I have only started to get along in the past year, after our mother was diagnosed with dementia. But that's another story ... .

The thought that keeps going through my head, with both my cousin and future DIL, is, ":)on't all our prior experiences together count for anything? All the great times we've had together, all the nice things I've done for you? I make one misstep, and our good history is forgotten?" I don't get that.

Excerpt
Did your son have many relationships prior to his fiance?  Could he have codependent tendencies?

My son had many girlfriends prior to his fiancee. For the most part, they were all lovely young women. However, the girlfriend right before he met his fiancee was not our favorite. She was snooty and aloof and ended up crushing not only our son's heart, but also his self-esteem. His self-confidence took a precipitous nosedive; my husband and I were very concerned about him. About a year after that girl broke up with him, he met his fiancee. I worry that he was too susceptible to her love-bombing after having been hurt so badly.

Your question about codependency is interesting. My husband and I have been pondering it. We don't think our son is codependent. Ordinarily, he seems to have healthy boundaries and isn't afraid to say no to requests that don't work for him. That's what was so odd about his "new" boundaries -- he had good boundaries before and now has moved to emotional blackmail.

Excerpt
What you see in regard to your DIL will likely be what you will deal with in the future.
This is different from what we're hearing from other people and even from the therapist yesterday. Most everyone has been saying it's just the wedding stress that's making future DIL act this way and that once the wedding is over, everything will be fine. My gut tells me that's not going to be the case. I have a real problem with a woman who thinks it's perfecting acceptable to block her fiancee's parents from her life in the months leading up to the wedding. As we told our son, this is the time we should be forming new patterns of relating and creating a place for her in our family. Her total rejection is not helping us move in that direction.

Thank you for the links. I'm still viewing the one on validation. Very complicated concept but helpful!
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HopeForPeace

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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2016, 12:07:38 PM »

Hi Wools,

Thank you for your insight, drawn from the sad experiences in your own FOO. It seems my mother was like yours in some ways. We rarely saw my dad's family, which for most of my growing-up was just his sister and her family and some of Dad's aunts, uncles and cousins. (My paternal grandfather died before my mother met my dad, and my paternal grandmother died when I was 3 years old.) But the animosity my mother felt toward my dad's sister was clear. There was always some reason we could never visit them. I can remember them visiting us only once or twice when I was a child. We learned not to ask about our aunt because our mother had so many hateful things to say about her.

That's what makes me fearful for the future -- I know how easily our future DIL can alienate us from our son. If she makes his life a living hell, like my mother did to my dad, I don't know what our son will do.

That said, I had a great phone call from my son last evening. My husband and I have decided to do what we can to focus on our relationship with our son, while being cordial to his fiancee. If she wants to act crazy, that's her business. We'll try our best not to react.

Thanks, Wools, for your support.
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2016, 12:51:49 PM »

Hi Notwendy,

I appreciate your sharing so much of your family history. It was reassuring to me in many ways. I think my mother was very much like yours. The sad part is that we didn't have the opportunity to stay with extended family on either side. How I used to pray that my parents would send me to live with my dad's sister! In my mind I kept a suitcase packed, ready to run to my aunt's house if the opportunity ever presented itself. Instead, my sisters and I endured some nightmarish summers and holidays, while our mother spun out of control trying to handle full-time parenting of three daughters (I am the oldest). We definitely were not bad kids, but like you pointed out, as we got older she had a harder time controlling us. We had our own ideas and interests, and we began to get the sense that she wasn't like other moms.

My dad responded similarly to yours. My sisters and I always thought he felt so controlled by our mother that if the day ever came when he had the chance to leave her, he would. Well, he's now in Assisted Living, and she's in Skilled Nursing after six months in Memory Care. And wouldn't you know, Dad goes to her room and spends all day, every day, with her, when he could be doing so many other things. His devotion is at once touching and tragic.

Because my mother was so volatile -- and because we had frequent periods of low contact or NC -- my boys spent far more time with my husband's parents than with mine. So I hope we established a good precedent: that being with the paternal grandparents is a safe place to be.

Thank you for mentioning triangulating. My mother triangulated constantly, so when our future DIL and her mother start doing it to me in June, I got a very bad feeling. Every time I had an interaction with future DIL's mom, I got caught in a triangle. I now avoid interactions with her like the plague. (BTW, she always plays the victim. I've never heard so much "poor me" whining.) What I hadn't realized is that the three roles can keep shifting, so thank you for explaining that. Gosh, that makes it all even more complicated!

As I said in my response to Wools, my husband and I have decided to try to maintain the relationship with our son as much as possible, while being cordial (and somewhat at arm's length) with his fiancee. Thank goodness for cell phones, so we can call him directly! I would not want to have to call their house and go through her to get to him.

Thank you very much for sharing your story, Notwendy.


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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2016, 05:59:15 AM »

I think it is great that you recognize these patterns in your family, and that you are consulting a T to give you support through this. I also think it is great that your son called you- he is still feeling a bond to you. The key is to not get into the triangle, as if your DIL sees you as a threat ( seems she might) she could also issue him an ultimatum- you or her. This would really put him in a bind. The fact that he calls you, is great, but be careful to be supportive without triangulating, or enabling. You may see the relationship getting tough, but he has to see it himself if he is ever to do anything about it and he may not. You also saw with your own parents that the glue between them may be stronger than what makes sense. My parents had their issues, yet my father remained devoted to my mother as well.

I also share your suspicion that this isn't just wedding jitters. Yet any kind of stress can exacerbate BPD behaviors. You know that marriage brings its ups and downs, and how she acts now is probably how things will be - but there is likely to be ups and downs with it too. I think time will tell on this one, there isn't any other way to know for sure.



 

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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2016, 07:03:56 AM »

Thank you, Notwendy. Hmm. I hadn't thought about future DIL making our son choose if she knows we have continuing contact with him. My husband and I thought we would continue to call our son from time to time like we always have, just to check in to see how his job is going and update him on family news. We have no intention of discussing his marriage and do not want to be drawn into conversation about it. Maybe that's unrealistic? His fiancée seems to have no interest in talking to us anyway, so we thought that might work. Maybe we're being naive.

I guess we'll have to take things one step at a time, while being aware of how fiancée might be filtering things through her BPD. Do you or others here know of strategies that have worked to keep up the door to communication open?
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2016, 12:16:43 PM »

I would continue to call your son. It is important to you and to him. If you don't call him, he might think well my wife is right about them.

Just don't be critical of her. That can push him to defend her.

Also, he may just feel more comfortable speaking to you when he is not with her, like at work,or in the car.

I called my father all the time. My mother listened in on our calls. He was old school, used a house phone, she would pick up the extension. I was careful not to say anything. She heard it all. She also read my e mails to him.

Another typical pattern was that I could be speaking to my father, when he would interrupt me and say "here's mom!" and hand the phone to her, as if I called to ask for her. No, I wanted to talk to him but she walked into the room, so it had to be for her.

Don't assume that she isn't checking his phone, texts or e mails.

I don't know if it is this way with your son, but just about anything I said to my dad, and my mothers FOO was reported to her.

Don't change your relationship with your son. Continue to be the mom he always knew and loves. He does love you. Just don't react to her, and continue to be supportive to him and his new family.
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2016, 12:43:58 PM »

I don't think she would flat out make your son choose. From what I have seen it is more subtle than that, perhaps being moody if she sees him on the phone with him, just enough so that he doesn't feel he can talk much.

It isn't just you, but it could be anyone he speaks to. It's the attention that can be potentially triggering. Since he seems like a caring guy, he may just not want to upset her.

You will get the signals from him, if he cuts the conversation short when she is around. It may just be easier for him to speak to you when he is alone, not because it is wrong to call,you but that her feelings would make it an uncomfortable thing to do in front of you.

Think about a small child. Remember when the child can be playing with a toy, watching cartoon, and being quite content. Then mom gets a phone call- and you know- then it is "Mommy" "Mommy" !

I think the situation with my parents is that it was obvious my grandmother didn't like her from the get go, but my grandmother would not be mean to anybody but surely my father knew that she didn't like my mother. I'm sure it was hard for my father to visit, and likely was not pleasant for my mother who preferred things her way. So I think he avoided it. But they were happy to send us kids to her.

There were no cell phones or computers in those days, so any communication was a larger effort. Cell phones are a blessing- you can call your son on his, and just have him pick up, so I think it is great to keep in contact.
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 03:08:51 PM »


The thought that keeps going through my head, with both my cousin and future DIL, is, ":)on't all our prior experiences together count for anything? All the great times we've had together, all the nice things I've done for you? I make one misstep, and our good history is forgotten?" I don't get that.

Unfortunately, they don't process things like nons, so what would seam like a minor disagreement that you can get past with others, won't work with BPD's. Along with splitting behavior, can come all or nothing thinking.  

A favorite logic I like to use is, "decide which hill you want to die on".  Meaning to decide if it is worth it to be right.  Is the issue really important to you, etc.   Some things might be so important that you have to speak up, but others are just best to walk away from when you know the person has BPD traits.

Quote from: HopeForPeace
Most everyone has been saying it's just the wedding stress that's making future DIL act this way and that once the wedding is over, everything will be fine. My gut tells me that's not going to be the case. I have a real problem with a woman who thinks it's perfecting acceptable to block her fiancee's parents from her life in the months leading up to the wedding. As we told our son, this is the time we should be forming new patterns of relating and creating a place for her in our family. Her total rejection is not helping us move in that direction.

One approach is to plan for the worst and hope for the best.  It could well be that the wedding has caused some emotional dysregulation with your future DIL.  I would tend to believe that it might be a one-time situation, if she hadn't idealized earlier.

Not everyone with BPD is the same, consistently exhibits the same BPD behaviors or the same BPD behaviors of others.  Hopefully, she will flip you from painting you black to white and you can have a more normal relationship.  But, there could be the potential for her to flip things again, perhaps if she gets pregnant and a grandchild enters the picture.

One approach would be to just be somewhat neutral with your future DIL.  There will be things you disagree with and want to express your opinion on - don't (keep your opinions to yourself). Beware of social media.  If you access any Facebook page (or other media) future DIL has access to, take the approach of "unless you have something positive to say, don't say anything".

It can seen unnatural to feel like you might be walking on eggshells, but it could make the difference with the degree of interaction you will have with your son and DIL in the long run.  Hopefully things smooth over with future DIL, after the wedding and into the future.

This article on Radical Acceptance might be good to read:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=90041.0;all

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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2016, 02:13:37 AM »

Hi again Notwendy and Naughty Nibbler,

I haven't replied to your posts because we were in the final throes of getting ready for the wedding. It was today. The ceremony and reception were very nice, but our now-DIL barely spoke to us. She was cordial at last night's rehearsal dinner, but then acted out in a painful way. I'd spent a fair amount of time and effort creating favors, one for each guest. She refused hers. Everyone else seemed delighted with them, but DIL left hers on the table, unopened. As we were leaving, I mentioned to my son that she'd forgotten it and he should take it to her. He said she didn't want it and that I should just keep it.

She didn't speak to my husband or me at the wedding or reception, except to include us in group instructions. I tried to tell her several times how beautiful she looked, but she ignored me. In fact, a few times I'd see her heading in my direction, and when she noticed me, she'd veer off or turn around and go back in the direction she'd come. She didn't speak to any of my relatives -- never stopped by their tables to meet them or thank them for coming. One relative remarked that DIL made it clear she had no interest in my son's family. In fact, we tried to take a group photo and before we could finish, she announced, "We're done here," pulled away from the group and walked away.

At that point my 21-year-old niece came up to me, put her hands on my shoulders and said, "My mom's told me some of the things you said DIL has done, and I thought you were being too sensitive. But I don't think that now. You are absolutely right about her, and I want you to know I see it, too." A couple other relatives were stunned by DIL's inhospitable behavior.

So I'm not seeing where the relationship is going to magically switch back tomorrow to the way it used to be. It's going to take some time to heal from the damage that's been done. I just hope my husband and I can continue to have a relationship with our son. Never in a million years did I think my son's wedding would be anything but joyful. Instead, it was very painful.
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2016, 07:18:50 AM »

I am so sorry this has happened to you, and sadly- it seems to be a common post topic- BPD wife establishing a barrier between the H and his family.

It is also a common occurrence in abusive relationships, unfortunately, regardless of gender.

It seems to be an act of fear and control- my spouse/partner should only love me.

When I encountered this as an adult daughter- I guess for my mother, I was a threat- because I was "on" to her- I felt so sad for my grandmother and my father's siblings. I know that they loved him, but he chose my mother.

I think that is the hard part to reconcile. Your DIL may be playing the part of villain here, and the way she treated you at the wedding- but the other side of this is that your son chose her.

While it feels good to be validated by others who saw the interactions at the wedding, it would probably be best to not discuss the situation with people in their circle. My mother sees people as either on her side or other people's sides and this has created rifts in the family. I just don't discuss her with people in her circle at all.

Your son probably sees a glimpse of her, but at this point, doesn't really see it. He is in love. He may also be in denial. ( I think my father chose to do that too). I know that it is really hard as a parent to see this kind of a choice, but I also think- that this is who he chose and now, his task to deal with whatever the consequences of this choice are.

This was also hard for me to see as an adult daughter. It seemed that my dad tolerated behaviors that I would not. Yet, he was in love with my mother and I had to respect that he had the freedom to choose- and let him be with that choice.
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2016, 05:31:17 PM »

I'm having a hard time moving forward since the wedding 11 days ago. (My gosh! It's been only 11 days? It feels like an eternity.) Our son did call us when he and his bride got home from their honeymoon, so that was good. She still isn't speaking to us, though. My husband kept saying, "Please give DIL a hug from us. We love both of you so much." No comment from our son.

The topic of the holidays came up, and our son hemmed and hawed. That worries me. Our DIL pushed our son to set "boundaries" on us over the summer. (Except they weren't really boundaries. They were threats and ultimatums.) We were told that we could have no contact with the bride until after the wedding, and then she proceeded to freeze us out of the planning. Our son said, if we contacted her, he would not see us at Thanksgiving or Christmas. This all came about after a disagreement we had with her over the summer -- basically over the fact that she showed zero consideration for any of the guests (not that we said that point-blank) and was mistreating my husband and me.

Unfortunately, it will not surprise me in the least if my son or his wife comes back and says, "But we didn't say that we WOULD see you over the holidays if you honored our boundaries." That's the kind of crazy "logic" she has.

It's becoming more apparent to me that she wants my husband and me out of their lives. This is tearing me apart because we've always been such a close family -- so close, that she remarked on it a couple times.

There's a complicating factor in all of this. My husband and I lost our youngest son to cancer six years ago. Our son and DIL seemed very amenable to our request that our youngest son be honored in some way at the wedding. Our son mentioned several things they were planning to do and asked me to provide photos and other suggestions. When we got to the wedding, my husband and I discovered that nothing was going to be done to honor our youngest son. I tried to display the photo that my son had asked me to provide. Our DIL verbally attacked me at the reception when she saw me carrying the photo, saying, "That photo showed up at the ceremony, which I didn't want! So no photo at the reception!" I felt like I'd been stabbed. What kind of cruel, heartless person treats others that way?
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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2016, 07:44:48 PM »

Hi HopeForPeace,

I'm so sorry for how hurtful the whole wedding situation turned out to be. It had to have been so hard to just keep going on, through the entire evening. And now, you are in recovery mode. So clearly you are hurting, deep and heartfelt. Seems as if the pain of having lost one son so painfully to cancer and now, you may fear that you are losing another son.  Extra     for you. There's a lot of grieving to be done here. Please be kind to yourself as you take all the time you need to heal and work through this.

Are you still seeing a T to aid you and your DH on this pathway? How is DH doing with this? Feelings are not the easiest to identify no matter who you are. I'm glad you are sharing your hurts with us.

 
Wools



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« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2016, 10:23:19 PM »

Wools, you echo something I was thinking just this afternoon:  that I need to do more grieving. I've been so busy bracing myself for more mistreatment by our DIL that I haven't given myself permission to recover from all that happened during the wedding and the weeks leading up to it. The bride took all the hopes and dreams I had for my son's wedding day and crushed them under her heel.

Before the engagement, our DIL seemed "to get" that my husband and I are still grieving the loss of our youngest son. She seemed empathetic. Then at the wedding, it was as if she used our grief to bludgeon us. And yes, you are correct -- it was all I could do to get through the evening. If it hadn't been for my extended family, who saw what was going on and treated me so lovingly, I might have left the wedding early. I'm glad, though, that I stayed until the end. Everyone was dancing in a big circle when my niece picked up my youngest son's picture and danced with it, saying he, too, needed to be part of the circle!

My middle son is the one who got married. I also have an older son who is not married; he thinks his new SIL is "fantastic." I haven't told him how she talks about him behind his back -- it wouldn't be kind to him and I'm not sure he'd believe it anyway. So, in some ways, I fear I may lose all three of my sons. How can this be happening? My mother is a uNPD, and I did everything in my power to raise my boys in a more stable, loving home than the one in which I grew up and tried to model healthy relationships. Now a uBPD is going to undo it all?

My DH wants to pretend that the last four months didn't happen and try to move on as if everything is fine. I'm going to look for a T who understands BPD. I didn't find the T we consulted a few weeks ago to be very helpful. I'm going to need outside support to get through this.

Thank you for your caring reply.
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2016, 11:19:16 AM »

I have another question: Is there a way to tell the difference between BPD and NPD? In the course of working with a therapist, I was able to accept that my mother is uNPD, and practiced strategies for dealing with her. A lot of it involved low and no contact, which was hard because it meant less time with my sisters (and their families), who were caught in our mother's "spell." But I was able to get a handle on what was happening in my dysfunctional family and heal myself.

So now I have this DIL whose behavior is vindictive and cruel. In many ways she reminds me of my mother (the triangulating, the scapegoating, the splitting, the rejection, the crazy-making arguments, the passive-aggressive behavior), but she's also like my BPD cousin (black-and-white thinking, cutting off at the first disagreement). My response to DIL is similar to my long-ago response to my mother: that I must be crazy, that something must be terribly wrong with me. So now I'm wondering, is DIL actually NPD and not BPD?

Something happened at the rehearsal dinner than struck some of us as inappropriate. While my DH and I were planning the dinner, we had a lot of trouble pinning down DIL in terms of what kind of venue she'd prefer, whom she wanted to invite, what kind of food we should serve and so on. She'd say she didn't care, that we should do whatever we wanted -- but when we'd make a decision, she'd tell us she didn't want that and would refuse to compromise. (That was how she behaved during the wedding planning, causing me to feel like I couldn't get anything right, so I pulled out -- a move she then characterized as me "refusing to be involved." All our son kept saying was, ":)on't upstage the wedding." (An interesting directive since we had no idea what the wedding was going to be like, thanks to DIL refusing to discuss it with us.)

The only thing she said she definitely wanted at the rehearsal dinner was time set aside for an "open mic," where people could get up and offer toasts to her and my son, and talk about how much they loved them. She mentioned that at least a dozen times. So we reluctantly arranged for it.

When the time came, we discovered that DIL had asked her bridesmaids and a guy friend to prepare toasts in advance. One by one those people got up and started, "The reason I love [DIL] ... ." Some went on for five to 10 minutes. The toasts were not lighthearted or humorous; they were more like hero worship, how each owed her/his happiness, work success, etc., to DIL. Almost nothing was said about our son. Finally, his best friend got up and made an impromptu toast on our son's behalf so he was not overlooked. A guest who's a minister said to me afterward, "I've officiated at tons of weddings and been invited to the rehearsal dinners. Never have I seen such fawning over a bride."

What I discovered at the shower and the wedding is that DIL seems to have no friendships that are older than six years. It was striking because the three of us from our son's side who were invited to the shower and many at the wedding have known him most of his life. At the shower I sat next to a young woman who went on and on about how close she feels to DIL. I asked how long they'd known each other: almost six months. Does this suggest that DIL has superficial relationships, or that she burns up friendships, or something else? Does it give any clues as to whether she's BPD or NPD?

Thank you. I don't like feeling as if I'm obsessing over this, but I really need to figure out what we're dealing with.
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2016, 02:24:13 PM »

Hi  HopeForPeace

I am very sorry you lost your youngest son 6 years ago. That's a very significant loss indeed. Do you feel like you at some level have been able to come to terms with this loss? Did you perhaps get support to help you in your grieving process?

You also ask about the difference between BPD and NPD. There are differences between those disorders of course based on the definitions and criteria for them. There however is also some overlap between them and people with BPD can for instance also clearly exhibit narcissistic traits. Since we cannot officially diagnose people on here, it probably is better for us to focus on the specific traits we can identify in people, whether they be BPD traits or NBP traits.

One of the central aspects of BPD is the immense struggles people with this disorder often have in (close) personal relationships. The way you describe your DIL does indicate she struggles in this department. The way she treats you and your husband is a clear red flag. What happened at the wedding with those fawning bridesmaids is also something I would consider a clear red flag.

You might find it helpful to take a look at the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) criteria for BPD and NPD:

DSM Definition: Borderline Personality Disorder

DSM Definition: Narcissistic Personality Disorder
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2016, 02:01:41 PM »

Hi Kwamina,

I'm not sure any parent who loses a child fully comes to terms with the loss. As I've heard over and over, a parent never gets over the death of his or her child. That said, my DH and I saw two bereavement counselors before settling on a third. We saw her for about four years. We accept that the cause of our son's cancer is unknown, so it was no one's "fault." We feel we did everything humanly possible to save him -- there just weren't enough treatment options. We established a memorial fund in his name after he died, and we grant college scholarships from that fund each year so he is remembered. We planted a tree in his memory in a public space and have a memory garden here at home. But I feel I won't be able to come to terms with his death without knowing why he died, and the "why" will never be answered.

Thank you for the links to the DSM. Our DIL has traits of both BPD and NPD. I've heard grandiosity in statements like, "I know 100 people who would love to throw a shower for me," and "a well-known designer wants to make my wedding dress as a favor." I've seen entitlement in the way she seemed to believe all her friends would put their lives on hold for four months to focus on her wedding. It appears some (i.e., the bridesmaids, her mom) actually did. The woman who did the flowers (not a florist) went to incredible extremes to meet DIL's demands. The first several people DIL asked (including a close friend of mine) dropped out when they saw what she had in mind. 

For now, our son is still communicating with us regularly. We hope that continues. He's trying to work things out so we can be together over the holidays. We'll keep our fingers crossed and be careful about what we say.

Thank you for your help.
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2016, 06:04:16 AM »

Hi Hope for Peace,

I am so sorry for the loss of your child.

Surely that affects your feelings about this new event with your son. Still, he is thankfully alive and your unconditional acceptance and love - including his choices - will help him not feel he is divided between you and his new wife.

As to whether she is NPD or BPD- labels may be less helpful than behavior. There is overlap between the two in many behaviors.

The situation at the wedding reminds me of my mother's FOO, many of who would fit NPD. Family events include listening to them tell us how wonderful they are - and this now includes their grandchildren. I recall attending some weddings where the toasts included just how wonderful they are ( can you see my eyes rolling?) . Actually many of them are good people, doing some remarkable things. But it also feels like we are just an audience when we are around them. After my father died, my mother painted me black to them, so I don't have as much contact with them as I used to.

As to your DIL's lack of old friends. My mother with BPD has a couple of old friends since college, but she tends to reinvent herself to new friends over time. I think for her, it is easier to be with people with whom she could start with a clean slate rather than do the repair needed to keep an old relationship. It might not be related to BPD. If your DIL or her family moved a lot, that could be the case as well- or if she attended college a distance away, then changed jobs- that might lead to making new friends.

I actually agree with your H about pretending the last few months didn't happen. That is- in my experience preferable to someone with BPD and perhaps your only chance of starting over with her. The pwBPD I know choose to be in victim perspective- they don't see themselves as accountable for their behavior. So expecting an apology won't come from that perspective. Also, if they are sorry for their behavior, they tend to project the feelings- or get rid of them somehow. Examining them, apologizing- that is a large shame trigger for them. The what I call etch a sketch ( recall that toy) or dry erase apology is an unspoken agreement to pretend it didn't happen. They act like it didn't happen- you do too.

That was how we had to do it in my FOO- whatever mom did that upset us--- didn't happen. That is crazy making for children - we saw mom out of control- then the next day, mom and dad would be affectionate and making up. We learned not to ask what happened. There were no answers and if we persisted, we would be punished.

When my mother painted me black to her FOO, that was a dilemma for me. I could tell them my side of the situation. Then, that would put them in a bad situation- who to believe- my mother or me. Two realities. Knowing that they were first loyal to my mother, I expected they would discard mine. Then - I had a choice- to continue my relationship with them - and go along with their reality, or to not be in a close relationship with them. I didn't want to go along with the people in my mother's circle and so I am not part of it.

This is your son. You know that if you say anything about his wife that is contrary to who is in her circle, you will be banned from it. Your older son thinks she is great- good because so long as he does, he will likely be included. He may figure her out over time, but he has his own mind to decide.

I know this is worrisome, but I think it is better for everyone- and also for any future grandchildren- to remain as a support system for this young family. This doesn't mean you have to lie, but you don't have to speak about your DIL.




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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2016, 06:58:41 AM »

Although holidays are understandably important to you, marriage changes the situation even without BPD. There are now two people with two families and most likely different in customs and ways to celebrate ( even in the same religion- people have different ideas of how to celebrate). Couples can feel divided over whose family to visit. They need to work this out themselves. Some couples actually eat two family dinners on the holiday with each family feeling they need to honor both. But this leaves them driving back and forth and stuffing themselves. Not the most pleasant holiday for them. Some couples decide that since they can't honor both families, they will start their own traditions and visit their families other times. As young children come along, they may find that travelling becomes difficult and invite the grandparents to see them.

Christmas is very important to my MIL- who cooks up a storm and her whole family visits. So we made a point to do my H's family traditions. But things changed. The family grew larger- and more grandkids came along. There developed favoritism for the other grandkids in the family - not ours- and it became obvious. We didn't want the kids to feel hurt or left out. Eventually I brought up the idea to not visit at Christmas and visit another time- when it could be just our kids- to have their grandparents to themselves. I thought my MIL would be horrified, but she was actually relieved. I guess we didn't divide her feelings in two ( there is drama in both my H's and my FOO).

Chances are your DIL may prefer her FOO on the holidays, and may not want your holiday celebrations to upstage her FOO's. Your son will once again feel split in two- perhaps longing for his traditions with his family, but knowing he has to accommodate her.

This may not sit completely well with you, but an alternative holiday at your home may be one possible solution. Although I get the importance of the holiday on the day it is celebrated- the importance of holidays also includes the family relaxed together and this will not be the case if there is conflict on that day. A day near the holidays could become a new tradition for you. Buy an extra turkey, leave presents under the tree on that day. I think some flexibility and creativity here could help you continue to be a part of this new family.
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2016, 07:34:27 AM »

Hi again HopeForPeace

I'm not sure any parent who loses a child fully comes to terms with the loss. As I've heard over and over, a parent never gets over the death of his or her child.

I agree. My aunt lost her youngest son in a horrific accident and that is not something a parent ever fully comes to terms with. I have not even fully come to terms with that loss. When you have children I don't think you ever imagine you being the one outliving them.

We established a memorial fund in his name after he died, and we grant college scholarships from that fund each year so he is remembered. We planted a tree in his memory in a public space and have a memory garden here at home.

It is awesome that you were able to honor your son in this way

But I feel I won't be able to come to terms with his death without knowing why he died, and the "why" will never be answered.

As for the why, perhaps this excerpt from one of Marsha Linehan's talks can be of some help:
Excerpt
The second part to accepting is accepting that every event and every situation has a cause.  
... .
So I'm going to give you an example. Imagine that there's a child on a bicycle. And the child is on a hill, and the child is racing down the hill, really fast on his bicycle. And he goes into an intersection and coming the other direction is a car.  And that car is driving, let's say at the speed limit - that car's not speeding.  But the intersection's unmarked. There's not a stop sign, there's not a stop light and there's not a yield sign.
So we're going to imagine the kid is racing down the hill. The car's coming the other way and they meet up right in the middle of the intersection. The car hits the kid and the kid dies.
If you say it should not have happened, I would say 'well, it should have'.  There wasn't a stop sign. There wasn't a stop light. There wasn't a yield sign. The kid was going fast.  The car was going the speed limit.  Something blocked the driver's view. The child was a child. Children go fast.
If you wanted to say that should not have happened, you would have to create causes for it not to happen.  You'd have to do something about all those causes.
That's an example of accepting reality as it is and accepting that reality has causes. Now, do you think I approve of this? Do you think you think I think it's good?  Is acceptance saying it's good that the child got hit by the car?  No. Is that what I want? No.  I were the child's mother am I going to go on a campaign, get stops signs put there or make the speed limit lower? Yes. Will I teach my child not to race down hills?  I will certainly try.
But, until the causes are different, that event should happen. It was caused.
... .
What's acceptance? Radical acceptance? Radical acceptance is not necessarily knowing what the causes are.  Like in the example with the car.  Well, alright, I don't if the problem was that there wasn't a stop sign or if the speed limit was too fast.  I don't really know.  But I accept that there was a cause, even if I don't know it.

Acceptance of extremely painful events and losses is extremely difficult. To once again quote Marsha Linehan: "It is hard. It's really hard."

For now, our son is still communicating with us regularly. We hope that continues. He's trying to work things out so we can be together over the holidays. We'll keep our fingers crossed and be careful about what we say.

I too hope these regular communications with your son will continue. I think Notwendy has shared some great advice with you, several scenarios of how you might proceed in a way that feels most comfortable to you. There is no one size fits all solutions, but by considering the different options and scenarios, it will hopefully be easier for you to determine how to move on from here.

Take care

The Board Parrot
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2016, 11:33:53 PM »

Hi again,

I will answer Notwendy's and Kwamina's posts soon. Right now I have something new on my mind.

My middle son and daughter-in-law spent Thanksgiving with my husband, our oldest son and me at the home of my husband's sister and brother-in-law. My husband and I were surprised that son and DIL were willing to make the long trip to be with us. Everything was good with our son -- we enjoyed lots of warm hugs and open conversation about his recent successes at his job. DIL was cordial. She did speak to us but was not friendly. (In fact, when we arrived at my SIL's house, DIL stayed in the bedroom while middle son came to greet us. We finally had to go to her to say hello.)

Friday afternoon middle son and I were sitting chatting on a sofa. DIL came over and sat in his lap. I resumed reading when they started to talk to each other. Suddenly DIL hopped up, and my son cried out, "Ow!" He reached down and started rubbing his lower leg/ankle. When DIL didn't respond, he said "Ow!" again. She kind of stuck her nose in the air and left the room. Evidently, she'd kicked him. Since I didn't see it happen, I don't know if it was deliberate or an accident. I didn't say anything, although now I wish I'd asked him if he was OK.

Should I let this go? I grew up in a family where there was terrible physical abuse, so I refused to tolerate it in my own home. I don't want to tolerate intentional kicking by my DIL, either. Even if it had been an accident, she should have apologized.

Prior to Thanksgiving, middle son had been talking to me about their plans to visit for Christmas. Now today all plans are off. Instead, middle son and DIL have made plans to spend our older son's birthday with him the following week. I was told "perhaps" it can be worked out that my husband and I can be included. We typically all celebrate birthdays together as a family, so I have a pretty good idea who's changing the rules this time. My older son said the get-together was middle son and DIL's suggestion.

I'm feeling alarmed again. First, the kicking and then the canceled holiday. We could've done a belated Christmas on our older son's birthday, but DIL is making it clear that she doesn't want to include my husband and me in our own family's holidays. I should mention that DIL isn't seeing her parents at all this holiday season.
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2016, 08:34:56 AM »

My first thought is to let the kick go.

Not because it is OK, but because, this is your son's issue to manage.

I get what you are feeling. I am a momma bear! I would want to go after her with teeth and claws. But the result would be her making you the enemy and forbidding your son to have contact with you. He would be in a tough place, but I believe he would choose her.

I speak from knowing that my mother frequently put my father in this position between his mother, his siblings, his children and every time, he chose her.

There are a lot of positives to this event. For one, you had some good times, your DIL was there. Yes. she was a bit of a pill, but this is who she is. You had some good times with your son. Consider that these things, the kick, the threat of Christmas plans are her way of exerting control in the moment. She may change her mind, or she may not. But your job is to not react to her hissy fits. Calm and steady, non reactive is the way to go here (IMHO).

How can you not want to intervene when you see your son hurting? The same way I had a hard time watching when my mother acted out with my elderly father. I wanted to help him, but when I did, my mother exerted her control over the situation and took victim perspective to my "persecuting" her. My father, whose main role was rescuer, would then get step in to rescue her by getting angry at me. Had I known then what I know now, that my intervening would cost me my connection to my father, I would have taken the non reactive stance with them personally. However I didn't completely ignore it and contacted his health care team when I thought he needed more home health help. I think we always have an option to hand this kind of thing over to professionals if we have serious concerns. This way, we have taken care of the concern without getting on the drama triangle.

This is a strange connection. Your son is in it too. All I know is that this connection that I saw, between my parents was stronger than his connection with anyone else, and he was willing to choose it over other relationships. If your DIL takes victim perspective with regards to you, your son is likely to rescue her from you. While your DIL may seem like the problem, your son is part of it. This relationship feels similar to an addiction and like an addiction, your son may change if he hits bottom. This means he needs to feel the consequences of this. This as a mother is hard to do, but it is similar to a kid forgetting his coat in the winter. If he gets cold, he will learn not to forget a coat. But if mom runs outside to bundle him up, he won't learn that lesson. Of course, we moms protect our kids from more serious lessons. Unfortunately though, we can not protect grown adults from their relationship decisions. It may take some kicks in the shin to motivate him to do something about this if he chooses to.

I think Thanksgiving went well all things considered - and if you continue to be non-reactive while giving this DIL room to be herself, you will see more of your son. Of course, you don't have to tolerate physical abuse in your home. If you see her committing serious harm, being out of control- call the police. However, a kick in the shins is something your son can handle.

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madashell2
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« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2017, 03:34:23 PM »

I'm hoping to connect with other women here who have daughters-in-law with BPD. My joining this group may be somewhat premature, as my son hasn't yet married my future DIL.

This is my story too. Additionally, my uBPD future DIL had a baby nearly a year ago.
We were in good favor until the birth of the baby. Then once they were home several efforts to visit them and the new baby were refused. Finally, after about 10 days, they relented and allowed my husband and I to visit. She hovered over us and was clearly agitated by us holding the baby. We left after about 90 minutes. The next day our son called to tell us that future DIL was furious with us and called us "stupid f'ing idiots" who don't know how to hold a baby. He said we need to stay away for awhile. We were concerned that she was developing Post partum depression. I called to see how DIL was feeling and offer help. She declined.

Over the next 2 months we were only allowed to come see them one other time (and always brought a meal). Then nothing. After no word from the kids, our son called to have us fix something for them. My husband said he would help if they would allow us to see the baby. My husband said that we don't feel they value us as grandparents. Well that started WW3. Our son accused us of using the baby as a bargaining chip and hung up on us. Then he called back demanding an apology from me. Future DIL would only talk to me. So I called her to "apologize" for something I didn't do or understand. She accused me of not caring about her and not supporting her. I explained that it was hurtful when they didn't want us to visit. She said we needed to "grow up" and stop being so selfish. She said that they would call us and we should be happy with whatever time they allow us to see the baby. (Which seemed to be once a quarter).
 
Another phone call from her to me was  rude, dismissive, hurtful remarks and accusations. I was blamed for everything. When I mentioned things that were said in previous conversations, the future DIL claimed the conversations never took place! She got angry when I confronted her and told me to "Stay the f*#K out of their lives!" and hung up on me.

We too got a call from our son. He announced he'd established some "boundaries." We were to have no contact with them. I was also to apologize to his girlfriend for confronting her on her behavior. We have been estranged from them since May. Did not see them for Thanksgiving or Christmas.

Of course, I realize those aren't boundaries. They are threats and ultimatums -- emotional blackmail.

My husband is fed up with her and is unwilling to allow her to control us with her threats and accusations. Additionally she is campaigning to discredit my husband and me to my MIL and son's siblings. She is saying terrible things  about us. This is affecting our whole family and we miss our grand-child. It's heartbreaking.

How will we ever heal this family rift? How can I get my husband to consider making a gesture to reconnect with them . He is so angry. We need help!

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HopeForPeace

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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2017, 04:15:04 PM »

I'm sorry, Madashell2. What has transpired with your son, DIL and grandchild sounds horrible. Have there been any changes since you wrote?

Things have completely deteriorated here. After seeing us at Thanksgiving, my middle son made it clear that he and his wife didn't want to spend any more holiday time with us. Then DIL turned around and made plans for her and MS to celebrate my oldest son's birthday with him on New Year's Day. Now, OS lives here in town and we have always celebrated as a family (with OS choosing the restaurant, and my husband and me picking up the tab). It felt like a slap in the face for DIL and MS to deliberately exclude my husband and me from our own family's celebration. Later, MS said that it "perhaps" might work out that we could join them. Gee, thanks.

It turned out that OS wanted to celebrate here at our house with a home-cooked meal and homemade birthday cake. MS was agreeable and said DIL was OK with it (I have yet to be convinced). MS also decided it would make sense for us to wait and exchange Christmas gifts that day. I was concerned that we'd be pressed for time because they needed to leave early the next morning, but MS assured me they'd be here about noon -- plenty of time.

They rolled in four hours late. My husband and I were texting and calling to see where they were. No response. No explanation upon arrival. Later MS said something hostile about not knowing we were holding them to a schedule. I was peeved.

I did my best to get through dinner and our gift exchange. DIL kept making thoughtless comments, but I tried to ignore her. I've figured out that at the very least, she has terrible manners and doesn't stop and think before she opens her mouth. We managed to make it through the evening.

After breakfast the next day, MS and DIL wanted to show us their wedding pictures (forget that her parents had seen them and had already placed their order). I sat there and looked at most of their 500 photos on DIL's laptop. There must've been a dozen of just her wedding shoes. Another dozen or so of her dress hanging in a window. At least three dozen of just her (at which she kept gazing and marveling at how beautiful she looked). FOUR posed ones of our family. I started to get upset. "I really wish we could have had more of our family," I said.

"Why?" she said. "How would it have been any different?" I said that it just would've been nice to have more poses from which to choose. She acted like I was crazy.

We went through the rest of the photos, and there were almost no candid shots of our family or friends. There were pictures of DIL's mother being escorted down the aisle but none of me. Again I said we thought there'd be more photos of our family. DIL said, "That wasn't a priority for us. We are very happy with the pictures." She said it was unrealistic to think the photographer could've taken pictures of everyone.

I got up and left the table. It was just more of the same garbage that led up to the wedding: that it was all about DIL and her family, a little bit about our son, and nothing about us. She seems to think my husband and I should be grateful that we were even invited. It's disgusting.

My husband and I started talking about what had upset us about the wedding. DIL told us that our feelings didn't matter, that she had no idea why we were acting that way, and then proceeded to lie about a number of things. Suddenly things she told us leading up to the wedding were given a different slant. When I confronted her on a major untruth, she just stood there and stared at me.

It also came out that during the engagement, when my husband and I were trying to keep OS out of it and not put him in the middle of the difficulties we were having with MS and DIL, she had totally pulled him in and had been bad-mouthing us. OS said he'd offered to talk to us to straighten things out, but DIL told him not to say anything because she didn't want him to feel caught in the middle. But she'd already put him in the middle! Obviously, she wasn't the least bit interested in working things out -- she just wanted to scapegoat us, and only God knows why. I was so mad, I could barely speak.

Anyway, DIL and OS stormed out and got in the car. MS hugged me for a long time. We both cried. Then he left. My husband has had limited contact with OS, but MS and DIL aren't speaking to us. We've emailed and texted and gotten no response. OS won't speak to me, and I'm not sure why. Right after our visit, DIL blocked me on Facebook. Unbeknownst to me, my husband texted her and asked why. She then blocked him. A few weeks later she unfriended me, even though we'd had no contact.

But you know what? This is a terrible thing to say, but having the break from all of them has actually been nice. I'm in no hurry to re-establish contact. My husband feels a little bothered but not enough to do anything about it. I'm frankly fed up with their rude, adolescent behavior and their only contacting us when they need something. My husband's and my relationship has improved over the last six weeks, not having to deal with the constant stress generated by DIL, with help from our sons.

This is a gross generalization, but I think this younger generation has a lot of growing up to do. I've talked to friends whose daughters treat them exactly the same way DIL treats me: saying rude, hateful things; cutting off contact; blaming; shaming; acting like dealing with parents is a huge bother; etc. I'm beginning to think we raised a me-focused generation that expects always to get its own way.

I suppose it's still possible that DIL has uBPD or uNPD. In mid-December our whole family was invited to a holiday party at the home of MS's oldest friend and her husband. OS couldn't go, but the rest of us did. DIL spent the entire party sitting in a stairwell, complaining about having a headache, being tired, feeling generally unwell. She refused to mingle and kept MS busy running to get her food and drink when he wasn't sitting with her. He didn't get to see much of his friends.

Anyway, DIL has some kind of serious emotional problem. We don't know what it is, and it's too all-consuming for us to deal with. If MS ever wants to talk to us about it, we'll be here. In the meantime, we'll keep our distance.
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