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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Disclosing/"revealing" the diagnosis  (Read 385 times)
Pine Knoll

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« on: October 06, 2016, 07:27:41 AM »

How/has anyone disclosed the disorder to their Ex-wife/partner with udBPD? How did you do it, did it help? My daughters will need to better understand their Mom and establish and maintain (try) a relationship with her. They need also not to internalize the blame and criticism that is being (and will continue to be) levied on them. Advice? My soon (not soon enough) to be ex-wife is not formally diagnosed, but she is BPD; I have never been more sure of anything in my life - we have been together for more  nearly 30 years. Kindness and thanks in advance, PK
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Panda39
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2016, 11:04:27 AM »

Hi PineKnoll,

You and I really aren't qualified to make a diagnosis (even though the shoe fits  ), and remember even though she is your stbxw she is still your daughters mother.  I suggest not labeling their mother instead address the issues your daughters have with her individually.  One of the best things you can do for your kids is listen, ask how they feel about whatever is going on, ask them why do they think mom is doing/acting the way she is and validate your children's feelings.  Help your children know that when mom says and does inappropriate or invalid things that it is not their fault.  Do not... .even though is it is soo tempting... .bad mouth their mother to your daughters.  Take the high road and focus on your daughters and not their mother.

There are a lot of books out there on validating children and raising resilient children one I read was... .

The Power of Validation: Arming Your Child Against Bullying, Peer Pressure, Addiction, Self-Harm, and Out-of-Control Emotions by  Karyn D. Hall & Melissa Cook

I found a lot of common sense information and good examples of validation.

Panda39
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« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2016, 02:48:44 PM »

I can't add much to what Panda said. Here is link to our review of the book: The Power of Validation

I think it's applicable, even if the kids are older. The healthiest course might be to support them in dealing with their emotions, and passing on coping tools for them, not their relationship with their mother. Their r/s with her is theirs to work out. In helping them (your r/s with them), they will be stronger and can choose to do what they want to do as independent entities.

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teapay
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« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2016, 07:45:02 PM »

How did you figure it out?  What tipped you off after so many years?

Your kids are adults.  If they are walking on eggshells with her, get them the Walking on Eggshell book and let them figure it out on their own.  Maybe after they will approach you.  Pushing to hard, unsolicited, can backfire.
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Pine Knoll

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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2016, 12:50:20 AM »

Thanks for the advice; much appreciated. Makes sense. My daughters are 11 and 13 and have a long way to go and their Mother's behaviors have been effecting them, which is why I decided to leave her. I currently have custody, but my udbpxw is fighting me. My oldest daughter has amazing self-awareness and has known for some time that my wife is not "normal"; in fact she has said to me ... "this is not normal", "mom needs to get checked out" ... ."mom is paranoid"; in fact she was more "aware" of the the reality before I was.

For 30 years I have tried to make my wife happy; I just accepted the reality that she decided and tried to adapt. One day, someone who was in a conflict with my wife (one of more than a dozen people over the years) sent me a web page that described the symptoms of BPD, because she thought my wife was exhibiting them (I did not even know what it was) and within 30 minutes my entire world/life over the last 30 years just crystalized. Others have since said to me (out of the blue, "is it Borderline?". Things that never made sense to me all of a sudden made sense. It was incredible and freighting. At first I was incredibly happy ... .I understood it; my life made sense; but the behaviors just kept getting worse and I could see the effects on my daughters. I asked my wife to get in patient care; she freaked out; ultimately punched me; I ended up with a protective order and temporary custody of our daughters. I am now fighting for permanent custody ... and going broke in the process. It is worth every penny.

My youngest daughter is doing what I did for so long which is to try to adapt and make her Mom happy. I worry the most about her; in fact she has some of the physical symptoms of the disorder and I feel like I need to watch her very carefully. Fortunately she seems to have a good sense of self; but she has very big mood swings and seems to have a difficult time not becoming over whelmed by her own emotions.

BPD is a horribly insidious disorder and I just want to protect my daughters from it. I can't believe I did not even know what it was until a couple months ago... .and I am a highly educated person. I am hopeful I can still get my wife to get treated for it ... for my daughters sake. She has agreed to undergo a psych eval (I had to agree to do it as well) as part of the divorce process. I am hopeful the evaluator will pick it up, but I know it is a long shot.

PK
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teapay
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 03:18:21 AM »

It sounded like your kids were older.  Another suggestion would be to get them in counseling.  I did that for my oldest D10 and it helped her alot.  Enough so that she naturally discontinued in a much better spot.  It was only once every two weeks.
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Panda39
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 07:09:03 AM »

"Another suggestion would be to get them in counseling."

I agree with teapay.  Both of my SO's daughters had therapy the younger daughter is still going, it's a safe place to talk about what's going on, learn coping tools, and it's a neutral party (Be sure the therapist is knowledgeable about BPD - because your stbxw might try to steamroll the therapist).  There can be alot of effects from having a BPD parent... .enmeshment, parentification, guilt, anger, trouble creating boundaries, accepting blame that isn't yours etc... .

My SO's daughters both struggle D20 is very low contact with her mother but stuffs a lot of anger (with reason) and though she won't admit it I think guilt too.  D20 was 14 when I came on the scene and was the "golden child" the Parentified child and very enmeshed with her mother.  D16 has low contact with her mom... .she keeps trying to have a relationship with her mom but her mom being her mom continues to be unaware of how hurtful her actions and words are.  D16 was 10 when I met her and she was what I would described as infantized, still sucked her thumb, had a blankie, still believed in Santa.  She was "the baby", she was enmeshed but she was also the scapegoat.  Both girls are very emotionally needy because their emotional needs were not met... .everyone in the family fed the emotional needs of their uBPDmom.

Panda39
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Pine Knoll

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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2016, 11:21:59 AM »

All helpful, thanks. Both my daughters are in therapy. I told both therapists that I believe (know) my wife is udBPD. One of the therapists (the one for our youngest daughter, who I worry the most about) specializes in CBT and DBT, so I think was a great choice. It is the right thing to do (I am making our youngest go) and I am sure it will help.

I am curious ... and maybe this is to all readers of this board ... .why shouldn't I just come out and say to my wife and her family ... "you are suffering from BPD, you need help and there are effective treatments" ... why shouldn't I say that? What is the harm; if someone had bipolar or schizophrenia I would. Why do we all seem hesitant to do that?

Thanks for your thoughts,

PK
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2016, 03:51:54 PM »

Excerpt
Why shouldn't I just come out and say to my wife and her family ... "you are suffering from BPD, you need help and there are effective treatments" ... why shouldn't I say that? What is the harm? If someone had bipolar or schizophrenia I would. Why do we all seem hesitant to do that?

Two reasons... .

(1)  From the experiences related here, virtually all members who told the persons about BPD and suggesting getting help report that the persons viewed the attempt as a personal attack on them.  Besides rejecting it, they often projected (transference) it back onto the informant.  The Denial, Blaming, Blame Shifting and overwhelming need to Punish is often that intense.  It's a Black or White (all or nothing) mindset that is very hard to approach safely, especially by someone who had a close relationship.  The emotional baggage is just too much to get past for the person to really listen and respond appropriately.

I remember reading somewhere that this has been called a Blamer's Disorder.  Odds are you can't get past the overreaction.  Possibly the same for your daughters (if even strong enough to handle it) though it all depends on their mother's level of conflict / disorderedness.  Since both are in counseling, probably best to let the counselors voice their thoughts on when the daughters should be informed what the behaviors mean, if not already done.

I'm not saying no one can get through, but often it takes a neutral professional who has no skin in the game and no emotional history to be blamed to get good results.  A lot too depends on the person's level of BPD.  If she is more inclined to "act-in" such as with cutting and low-level behaviors, she may be more likely to respond then someone who "acts-out" aggressively attacking others out of narcissistic entitlement, demands, ultimatums, blaming, etc.  An interesting read is a paperback by a recovered pwBPD describing her experiences, "I Hate You!  Don't Leave Me!"  Stressing the emotional neutrality needed, she wrote she never even once touched her therapist, not until years later when he told her she had recovered and they hugged once and parted ways.

(2)  Without a diagnosis courts and other professionals generally limit themselves to dealing with the behaviors and behavior patterns.  Even your younger daughter's counselor who specializes in CBT & DBT probably would remark, "While the behaviors described do fit many of the Borderline Personality Disorder traits (at least 5 of the 9 traits), I haven't had the opportunity or responsibility to diagnose her.  I can't diagnose based on others' reports."

I'm not saying she should never be told, just understand the possible reactions and overreactions as well as how you choose the timing.  Would the counselor let you join in a session with daughter to ask?  Yes, the daughters ought to be informed, likely they're dealing with cleaning out the "fleas" of being around a person with BPD.  Would mother handle it better if a daughter had reached the level of improvement to be strong enough to let mother know?  Should all be there?  Should it wait until the intense "abandonment" feeling of the separation and divorce are wrapped up?  (You probably don't want her all hot and triggered in the middle of a divorce... .it might be quite a rampage where she could throw a lot of legal wrenches into the financial aspects of a divorce.)
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2016, 04:16:57 PM »

Another thought... .Many therapists don't even tell their patients that they probably have BPD.  They know how triggering that can be and don't want their client to overreact and storm out never to return.

So that may be a thought.  I'm assuming you're in counseling too?  That makes 3 out of 4.  How would mother react if she were approached properly and told everyone else is getting (generic term) counseling and it would be good for her to have it too?  It could be phrased as something good to help her adjust to single life and the new relationships with you and her daughters now that the marriage is ending, that it's standard for everyone, court favors counseling and already 3 of the 4 are participating and it is helpful.  I'm sure daughter's counselor could recommend someone without saying precisely why that specific professional was chosen... .Thought
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2016, 04:33:22 PM »

A therapist at our large, very well known HMO said that they won't diagnose BPD, but rather refer a patient to DBT if they thought the subject had BPD.
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teapay
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2016, 07:46:35 PM »

Pine,

Some folks might be hesitant.  Many have tried and found at best it didn’t amount to a hill of beans, and at worst it alienated them from the very folks they tried to tell.  Some have been painted with the sour grapes syndrome.  However, if you believe it may help, even just you to get it out there, by all means share what you need to share.  I understand the frustration when others seem to not see, ignore or deny the obvious.  Often others are afraid of the BPD or don’t want to get involved or don’t want to get in the middle.

My wife has been dx with BPD and in treatment for several years now.  It took a lot to get that dx.  Substance abuse, significant blatant self harm, hospitalizations, suicide attempts, ICU visits, visits by the cops, visits by EMS.   I think that the dx and treatment has helped with the most severe stuff, but not as much as you might think or hope.  It is still more me dealing with it better than her actually getting much better.  I’ve found out that other people don’t care too much about my wife’s BPD and its resultant problems until they start getting the BPD treatment themselves.  Then BPD becomes a grave concern.  We’ve been in marriage counseling a few times since she’s been dx and I always bring it out in the first session and during private sessions, but in joint sessions it doesn’t come up.  It used to be more important to me.  Now,  not so much.

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Panda39
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2016, 08:22:57 PM »

There are a lot of different angels here... .

Remember this is your daughters' mother you're talking about and they are part of her, labeling their mother with a mental illness might be scary to them (worried they might get it too) or they might be in denial about it or get protective of their mom.  It could be alienating even if true.  It could be stigmatizing.

Or it could be a relief to know "it" has a name.

I simply think that without a diagnosis by a professional you can't give her the label, you aren't qualified to.

Why do you think having the label and sharing that label with your daughters is so important?  I think you can talk about mom's behaviors with your daughters without the label. 

I agree with what others have said about discussing this with the kids therapists and get their take on it. You and their therapist know your daughters best and how they might handle that kind of information.

Panda39
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Pine Knoll

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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 06:41:02 AM »

All helpful comments, thank you. Your comments really got me thinking about why I want to get it out in the open. I think there are several reasons, some good, some admittedly selfish or at least self-centered (if I am honest).

1) The non-selfish reasons:I want my wife to get help. Not because I love her or even like her any more, because to be honest I don't. I would be happy to never ever see her again in my life. I have tried for so long (30 years) to make her happy and subjected myself (willing because of my own pathologies) to her emotional abuse for so long that I have developed a hate for and resentment of her. She is, however, the mother of our daughters and I want her to be a better mother to them. She will subject them to pain and abuse until she does get help. Logically, it seems to me that if it were in the open she would be more likely to do something about. Ironically she is mental health professional - yes, a therapist. She was probably more effective than most BPD cause she constantly used her psychological assessment of me against me, and she good enough to say things that would resonate with me and exploit my weaknesses and fears.

2)The selfish reason: I feel victimized and I have felt abused for years. I have always resisted that feeling, but the feeling has lingered in the back of my mind for years. I feel like I was taken advantage of, manipulated and emotionally abused (everything was always my fault and I internalized that and I came to believe it was my fault just to make her happy - I know I allowed it to happen, but I was still not the cause). Emotionally, I want to call out my "abuser". I feel that the silence protects her and maintaining the silence feels like just one more thing I am doing for her benefit over mine (which I have been doing for years). I want others to know that all those terrible things she said about me behind my back for years was not real and not true and actually a form of a abuse. I fee like I deserve some social/personal "justice" - maybe revenge-like feeling? None the less, running away and hiding the truth seems like I am protecting the person who abused me, and to be frank that makes me mad.

I feel like I have been emotionally date-raped for 30 years and now I have to maintain my silence. I hope others don't find that analogy offensive. I am sorry if it does, I am really just trying to be honest with my feelings. Why should I protect her? Why shouldn't I call a spade a spade. Why does she get to continue to say terrible things about me and I am protecting her from the truth.

Thoughts? and thanks,

PK
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Panda39
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2016, 10:55:42 AM »

"Why should I protect her? Why shouldn't I call a spade a spade. Why does she get to continue to say terrible things about me and I am protecting her from the truth."

The way I see it you are not protecting your stbxw you are protecting your daughters.

Everyone's situation is different but I can tell you that my SO called his uBPDxw out on this... .told her he thought she had BPD... .total denial... .no change in behavior.  As a matter of fact for the entire 6 years I have known him she has continued all the same behaviors to a point where her particular brand of crazy has become predictable. So I wouldn't count on telling your stbxw you think she is BPD will create the change you hope for. I also do not believe that telling her you think she has BPD, will gain you the validation for the abuse you hope for.  My guess is that telling her will not be as satisfying as you hope it will.

My advice is to focus on your daughters, learn everything you can about BPD and validation, so you can assist them in negotiating their relationship with their mother.  No labeling is needed.

Panda39
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2016, 11:42:15 AM »

PK,

I am in a similar situation having been discarded after 25 years.  My kids are older than yours and they know the truth.  Not the whole truth but they know their mother has a mental illness.  In my case, my stbxw is not happy about this.  Her reason?  Because our kids don't need to know everything.  I argue that the real reason is she's ashamed of her behavior and doesn't want them to know and, hence, possibly abandon her.  I think it's important they know so they can hopefully avoid the caretaking tendencies I learned from my mother.  Other than that, I'm not telling them what to do as far as contact with their mother but I can assure you they're not happy with her and have not initiated contact for months.

Like you, I'd never heard of BPD until my therapist/psychologist friend suggested this was the case after I'd described everything that went on.  I did not hold back with stbxw either in telling her I thought she was sick.  While we were still seeing each other, I had her go through several online BPD tests.  All scored very high likelihood for BPD.  8 of 9 characteristics for BPD in DSM-IV.  I even had her on the phone with this therapist to talk about next steps for DBT.  It did no immediate good (that I know of) because she pushed me further away after that. Even though the outcome was not what I'd hoped for at that time, it goes along with your idea of not wanting to bury this any longer and let the chips fall where they may.  I totally see the benefit in that to make this part of your recovery, but I agree that you should tread lightly with the kids at this point as you're walking a fine line of your revenge possibly influencing them when that might not be the best long-term plan.

Good luck.

bi
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