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Author Topic: Very little that qualifies for emotional intimacy in my marriage..  (Read 1064 times)
formflier
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« on: October 20, 2016, 04:53:08 PM »

In what way are we being soothed by physical intimacy, especially when the emotional intimacy may be lacking in the relationship?

There is very little that qualifies for emotional intimacy in my marriage... .at the moment.  We do celebrate achievements of our children and when "it's just us" we are currently sort of pleasant with each other.

Currently the amount of sex we are having is back on the upswing (wife was sick with strep for a while... .is why we took a break)

Anyway, I am "comforted" by the afterglow of sex, especially if I have an orgasm.  On the one hand I know that I'm confusing that comfort with emotional intimacy (closeness).  On the other hand, I know this is what I have and (for now) I'm going to be ok with it.

One of the things I am working on RA with is that a relationship that is stable with my wife is one where there is distance, with my wife "in charge" of "pulling" in the push pull cycle. 

As long as I gently resist and keep the distance, she is hooked, I get a lot of sex, and things are relatively stable around the house.

Not want I desire... .but it works for family stability.

Still need to sort out with psychologist how I get my "emotional needs" meet.  Working on it.

Note to mods:  If this is too much personal stuff... .feel free to boot this... .or start new thread... .whatever.


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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 06:45:11 PM »


If anyone is curious... .this post came from this workshop.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299970.0;all

Workshop is trying to stay a bit generic.  My post seems to have had too many details.

If anyone else has dealt with this aspect of a dysfunctional relationship I'm all ears.

Those that have followed me for a while (especially KateCat) know that I've got a lot of RA work to keep doing. 

Looking at things from a "detached" point of view helps me decide on "tactics" to keep things stable. 

If I can remain stabilized around the push pull cycle of me being a bit aloof and her trying to pull me in, it appears that we have a much healthier relationship than we actually do.  It appears that she wants me.

There is still the issue of where I go/what I do about having relationships where someone truly wants me.

Anyway... .interesting to work through.  I am enjoying the stability.

FF
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2016, 06:33:31 AM »

FF- the idea of emotional distance is interesting.

I prefer a more emotionally close relationship, but I found that pushing for closeness felt like I was pushing a brick wall.

I have looked at this idea from the standpoint of boundaries. We tend to match up with people who have similar boundary issues- but boundaries can be too weak and too strong.

Although my FOO and my H's FOO are very different, an aspect they do share is enmeshment and co-dependency. I think those of us who grew up with this may have difficulty distinguishing emotional closeness and enmeshment. It might just feel the same.

I know that when I first married my H, I had very weak boundaries. I really pushed for emotional intimacy, but felt locked out. His boundaries seem to be the opposite of mine- nobody got past them.

When I worked on my own co-dependency issues, I think my boundaries got to a healthier place. I also became more aware of my H's. Keeping a distance - not pushing so much for emotional intimacy does seem to keep the relationship more stable. But it isn't the push pull for me, it is more about recognizing that pushing his boundaries is irritating to him and just frustrates me ( It doesn't work).

Ironically, over time, he seems to feel safer opening up a bit more. Sometimes he says he misses me trying so hard to engage him. Yet, the pattern is that he might begin to initiate a more intimate conversation topic, and if I join in, he clams up. Part of my RA is recognizing that perhaps he just needs more distance than I do.

I think it is important to be authentic and not play the push pull game. At least you recognize that keeping your wife on edge has payoffs for you. Rather than have her at the edge, perhaps a comfortable distance is achievable.

But if recognizing that what feels like distance to us is the position of comfort in the marriage and keeps things stable, it may be something to accept as it is.

Years ago, I was struggling to find some way to help my marriage and read a lot of marriage books from different sources, both secular and religious. Since I know you like a religious perspective- Dr. James Dobson's book "Love Must Be Tough" addresses the push/pull in all relationships.
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2016, 06:59:34 AM »

So how do we meet our emotional needs?

One aspect of dealing with my own co-dependency is that the need for someone with whom I could meet my emotional needs diminished, and not in an unhealthy way. I had to learn to take care of myself. As a mom, my focus was on taking care of others- children of course, but being a caretaker since adolescence for BPD mother was "normal" for me.

I also don't want to violate any privacy boundaries with my H- so for me, counseling was the place to discuss my personal issues. Also, the 12 step groups and relationship with a sponsor gave me an outlet for a closer relationship. Of note: boundaries are important to me and to keep the boundary on my marriage- I chose a female sponsor. ( I also chose a female T)  My H would not be concerned about me having meetings with a woman and I felt more comfortable discussing personal things with a woman. I don't want to feel emotionally closer to another male, as I think that would affect the dynamics in my marriage.

Being involved in volunteer work, as well as part time employment has helped me be in contact with people in an emotionally fulfilling way as well. I think it has helped to not put the focus on one person- my H- for emotional connections, so long as I have careful boundaries around my marriage.
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« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 07:48:10 AM »

Still need to sort out with psychologist how I get my "emotional needs" meet.  Working on it.

How about training to become a family therapist?

I don't think I'm kidding. 

You returned from a war in which you were a "formflier," or leader. But you found that you had returned to another, more intimate war, and this one has stripped some of your identity from you. But you are on the road back now and learning things every day.

In the past year you've done so much for your family. Relocating to a state that is full of advantages for your children's future. Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Beginning to disentangle from conflict with your wife's family, despite greater physical proximity to them. Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Boldly attempting Biblical Counseling (and being able to cross that off your bucket list, I'm guessing). Securing the services of an experienced psychologist who just happens to have been married to a person with mental health issues similar to those of your wife. (Still can't believe you scored on this one.)

What experience you'd have to offer as a family guide, whether within or without the religious setting. You yourself have been able to accept family support services and child protection services. You have been to war. Experienced PTSD. You have weathered serious conflict with in-laws. You know what it means to have your professional life impacted by family problems.

I could see men, especially, coming to you for guidance and finding much comprehension. You could already run rings around the BC guy. (He's probably not the best example of biblical counseling in any event.)

I guess I'm mainly wondering if you need to be a "formflier" of some type, in some fundamental way. And how you could see yourself meeting that need in a way that honors the whole of your life's journey. (If it is not realistic to find uninterrupted respect and understanding with your wife and her side of the family.) To me this seems like a productive thing to explore with your psychologist, when the time is right.
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« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 08:17:12 AM »

  (Still can't believe you scored on this one.)


No kidding.  It makes a lot of her advice very authentic... .also helps me through my failures as she described how har.d it was for her... .and she has a PhD in this stuff.


Oh yeah... .meant to give you guys an example for push pull... .that is "better".  Her description of the relationship my wife has starts like this.

My wife desperately wants closeness (a person to be connected to) yet is completely terrified of actually being close.

She wanted me to imagine one of those child's toys where there is a paddle with a ball and an rubber band holding on the ball.

She wanted me to imagine what happens when she (my wife is the ball... .I am the paddle) "smacks into me" in a moment of closeness.  Me hitting the ball hard is me "welcoming" the closeness and she "reacts" by flying way far away from the paddle.

Yet... .she is connected... .gets lonely and scared of being alone and comes flying back in for another "smack".

So... .in my mind... .when she comes flying in for a smack I don't "hit back".  Best case for stability is that I "pull back" just a tad.  She does need to feel the "thump", but I'm in charge of taking energy out of it.  That way she doesn't fly too far away.

I'll post more on this later.

FF
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2016, 09:53:04 AM »

Great topic.  I have experienced this push/pull dynamic even in my nonBPD relationships, and I'm sure my codependent tendencies have contributed.

I have sometimes described the feeling as "I only get what I want after I no longer want it."  The drive for intimacy and closeness often ends up closing the other person down.  Yet when I pull away, suddenly they're more available.  As you've described FF, this dynamic is far more pronounced with BPD relationships.

I have learned a lot about myself by working on integrating/finding that balance internally, rather than looking for it externally.

Having said that, I still hang on to the hope of a deeper, truer intimacy.  A partnership where two people deeply embrace a close connection that grows stronger through that closeness, and as trust is cultivated over time.

I wish I could say I've created that in my life, but so far only glimpses, it's mostly a hope.

Chump.
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2016, 10:51:07 AM »

I've been staying detached/aloof, too. Sometimes, my husband says something about things getting better between us, and I have to say that they really aren't. I have to be guarded emotionally around him because he can and has used my vulnerability as a weapon. For my emotional needs, I have friends who are supportive and give a respite from the guarding that I have to do with my husband. I've also decided to give up on trying to make our marriage look like something that it's not to outsiders.

This week, we had an event where both of us were 'required' to attend. We drove separately, and I mainly sat with friends. The only times when we sat together were when he sought me out and sat with me. One of my friends mentioned that he 'lit up' when I came into the room and thought it was a good sign.

He still is trying to manipulate me into doing certain things, but I'm not playing the game anymore. It keeps him off-balance and is probably why he feels unstable. Right now, the manipulation comes in the form of being nice, but he has shown his cards, so to speak. My keeping distance and having outside emotional support has allowed me to see more clearly what is happening. It fills my emotional tank, so I'm less vulnerable there.
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2016, 06:37:13 PM »

I've learned to be OK with my situation although it isn't the distance I had in mind when I was married. I also wonder if I was confusing enmeshment with feeling closer considering my FOO. Keeping the space has been easier on both of us. We don't seem to argue as much.

I too have had the experience of going out as a family and siting down with the kids between us. Then my H will point it out that I wasn't sitting next to him. We don't socialize much together. It's mostly been me and the kids- and I am so used to sitting with them that I forgot that there is another way to sit in a group.

I compare it to two magnets of the same pole. They can be near each other but too close is unstable.

Or maybe I'm becoming less enmeshed and that is a good thing. I don't feel my emotional cup us empty. It seems Ok to me.
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2016, 03:38:31 PM »

There is very little that qualifies for emotional intimacy in my marriage... .at the moment. 

Is the change that she's withdrawn from emotional intimacy, or that you've started to notice (and care) about its absence?

It is hard to say what the chances of getting emotional intimacy are, but it would seem that it is better if you had it and lost it... .

Excerpt
One of the things I am working on RA with is that a relationship that is stable with my wife is one where there is distance, with my wife "in charge" of "pulling" in the push pull cycle. 

As long as I gently resist and keep the distance, she is hooked

Tough place for you to balance.

You really don't want to engage in the full-on push-pull games with her, and you've seen how badly chasing her when she wants distance goes.

Keeping just enough distance that she pursues you somehow feels manipulative, and keeps the push-pull game in play. It also seems dangerous as she's VERY good at playing that game to your detriment. (If not to her advantage!)

I think trying to be centered in what you want/need for yourself is better. There are times you want alone/separate space and time. You also want time with her alone, and with various combinations of her and your children. And those things only happen when all involved are interested/willing, which is ... .complicated ... .and I think you've gotten better at accepting it sometimes isn't happening the way you want and when you want.
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2016, 04:32:44 PM »


Is the change that she's withdrawn from emotional intimacy, or that you've started to notice (and care) about its absence?
 

I'm going to say it's about 50/50.  

I'm certainly learning more about what a healthy r/s is.  Perhaps my standards are going up some.

I'll write more on this later.

FF
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2016, 05:01:27 PM »

Keeping just enough distance that she pursues you somehow feels manipulative, and keeps the push-pull game in play. It also seems dangerous as she's VERY good at playing that game to your detriment. (If not to her advantage!)

Personally, I don't see this as bad.  You are living with a disordered personality.  To a certain extent you do have to manage their illness by managing your responses.  It seems to me that FF is choosing the path that reduces the energy in the dynamic and results in a more rewarding relationship for both of them.
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 06:22:01 PM »



So... .yeah... .there is the dysfunctional part of our relationship.  Wife likely has a PD... .definitely has tendencies.

I've got tendencies as well.  My wife has tendencies as well.

Part of my journey about learning about myself is to recognize how I approach intimate relationships.

You guys "know" my Psychologist is a straight shooter.  Like talking to Grandma about big life subjects... .

So think about a Saint Bernard puppy.  Almost any puppy will do, but I'm a big guy, so a "bigger" puppy is more accurate.

They are nice to be around.  Very affectionate.  But... .even "normal" people get to the point where they say "this is too much... .go put him in the kennel"

Well... .I'm the Saint Bernard.  Nothing is better than giving affection and having it returned.  My tolerance level for that is way... .way higher than my wife.

She's pretty low on that, even when she is normal.  Put in some dysfunction and things really go haywire.

I have been trying to learn how to channel myself into other activities... .and when my wife is in the mood for "petting the puppy"... .I need to hold back some, so I don't overwhelm her.

Perhaps someday she will learn to be more affectionate/intimate... .perhaps not. 

Last:  Put in "hyper sexual" behavior on my wife's part and you have a really interesting mix.  OK... I'm guessing most of the ladies are wondering how she can be hypersexual without much intimacy.  Well... .many times she wants to "go for it" without much kissing and foreplay.

So... .we end up with a relationship where the man is the one usually wanting to "slow down" and do the cuddling and caressing and the woman that "wants to get right to it".  How is that for a bassackwards (true southern word!) r/s.

FF
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2016, 08:58:22 PM »

formflier,  earlier this year my husband of 20 years and I read a book called "Cupid's Poison Arrow," and it addresses the reasons behind couples who separate immediately after intimacy.  It was very interesting and something that impacted our marriage greatly. It's a form of sexual intimacy that is much more erotically satisfying (I can attest!) than the typical form of marital sex... .and my husband, who is quick to disappear after a connection, lingered emotionally for a very extended period of time.  Plus, I was so fulfilled from it that I didn't have that empty yearning feeling any more. In the past, I would moderate myself after an encounter so that I could experience him being more comfortable but I was always aware of the hole it left in me. At one point I was tempted to have an affair. As someone who has always been adamantly against affairs, I gained an empathy and understanding for those who choose that route. But I backed away from that idea because I do respect my marriage, and love my husband and despite the neglect I was feeling, I know he loves me. When I heard about the aforementioned book and studied it indepth and spoke with others about it (private facebook groups) I was very drawn to it.  I then brought the book to my husband. To his credit, he read the book and became very interested in it. That began our pleasurable, no-pressure journey into an intimacy like I've never experienced before.  So, it may or may not be your cup of tea, this I understand. But since I had the thought to share it with you, there you go.
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2016, 02:24:42 PM »

When I got married in 2012, my relationship with my wife steadily lost emotional intimacy, which hadn't been very strong in the first place.  When our son was born in 2013 and she moved out of the marital bed and into his room, not only did the sex virtually dry up completely, but also the emotional intimacy steadily died.  She never spends time with me alone; every evening, shortly after I get back from work, she goes to bed with our son (3) in his bed, leaving me, in the only free time I have at home, alone.  Occasionally she will ask to go to the movies, but that's more about going to see a movie she wants to see than about spending time with me. 

The last time we had sex was 4 months ago and up til then it was once every 6 to 8 weeks and only when she wanted it.  She would come downstairs from our son's bedroom, we would have sex in the "marital" bed (de facto "my" bed) and then as soon as it was over - no cuddling or spooning - she would head to the bathroom then straight back to our son's room.  Sometimes I felt like a whore who had been visited by a client.  But even those scraps of physical intimacy seem to have dried up now.

I hate that there's no intimacy in my life - physical or emotional.  I really thought that I would spend Friday nights curled up on the sofa, with a glass of wine and a DVD, talking about everything and nothing with a "best friend" wife. 

We now don't even give each other a peck on the cheek now.  We are like roommates that are merely civil to each other when things are good, but most of the time she speaks to me like to a servant whom she would like to fire but is contractually obliged to keep employing.  That's not a marriage.
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2016, 10:23:58 AM »

Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) Dragon72 - sadly though, it is a marriage. 
I think I coined the phrase "Marriage is just another word for lonely."  Which is no proper way to live for sure.  My summary of the first 17 years of sex in my marriage would be rejection and disappointment, with a mix of manipulation.  As a generality, if we did anything intimate, it was me starting it, and the one doing all the "work."

I really, really suffered for the lack of physical, and I presume emotional, intimacy.  I shut down thinking of my wife sexually altogether and moved into a separate bed in the basement last year.  Mix that with thousands of miles of distance running and some Zen readings, and sex, emotion, and intimacy turned into nothing I need, or not.  Certainly, I'm jaded at the moment, but, I think it's not all just a case of sour grapes about my life.

What sounds pretty common, and ever more twisted, around here is that when I shut down and stopped trying to have sex and intimacy, my wife started needing it, and wanting it.

I remember reading something last year that discussed emotional needs in a relationship, and I got stuck there - like my mind was completely blank while it searched for evidence of emotional intimacy, or to know if my needs were met.  I eventually got to wonder if I did even have needs, emotional or otherwise.  Part of my situation is that I have been held to such a high standard, in which I am afforded no mortal weaknesses - for if I had any they would set off a firestorm, or more usually a long withdrawal and I got the silent and cold treatment.  Further, I suspect that I have been a victim target of verbal and emotional abuse for so long, that I have profound damage - and my character is better, and worse, because of it.  I'm still searching for answers of whether I have needs that can be met in marriage, I just have nothing good to say or think about it anymore.

Know that you're not alone though.  I fill my life with my kids, my activities, and my life.  Maybe that approach will help others too.
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2016, 11:27:30 AM »



What sounds pretty common, and ever more twisted, around here is that when I shut down and stopped trying to have sex and intimacy, my wife started needing it, and wanting it.
 

This is playing out for me at the moment. 

I've been more withdrawn lately.  Number of reasons.  This past weekend it was obvious my wife was "pushing" to do stuff "just" with me and be closer.  I obliged... .but didn't jump headlong into it.

Spent hour or so by fire in backyard... .snuggled under blanket.

Watched romantic comedy together... .very relaxed... snuggly.

Couple good romps in bed.

Then... .last night about midnight, after a good sex romp, she asks if we can talk for a bit.  I said I was tired... but would give it my best shot. 

Basically she wanted to know "where we are?" (as in our relationship) and she was apologetic for "judging" me and speaking to me unkindly.  No specific instances were given... .but more of a general pattern.

I hugged her and told her it meant a lot to me, said we all have days where we are not at our best and we need to focus on the future as much as possible.

More snuggling... .

She pressed some about "where we are" and I "deflected" by saying I have made conscious decision "not to compare" how things are now and previous times.  That I wanted to focus on being thankful for what we have right now and do best I can right now.

Also said that I would think on this and looked forward to talking more... .when I was rested better.

This morning she gets up and is a bit grumpier.  I made biscuits and offered to bring her some in bed (day off for everyone here).  She seemed very put out by the offer... .  I didn't engage on it.  She did come have breakfast at the table with me.

Who knows. 

FF
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2016, 02:00:33 PM »

I never know how to answer the 'where are we' question. The thing is that in a relationship with a person who has instability on a personality level, one really can't know.

My husband gets upset when he thinks we are 'all good' and we aren't anywhere near that.

I wonder if the sex thing is an indicator to her of your relationship - with the focus on the behaviors of each of you.
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2016, 02:23:52 PM »

 
Yeah... .I'm with you.  Who knows...

I'll take it up with P tomorrow.

My big picture decision was to be honest... .to use it as a teaching moment... and to kick it down the road.

I honestly am focusing on not comparing.  If that idea is useful to her... and I suspect it is... then great.  Plus I was honest and said I was tired and wanted to chat more later.

Best I could do at the moment.

But... .yes... .underneath it all was a long sigh and knowledge that this is a question that doesn't get answered "correctly"... .

FF
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2016, 02:51:16 PM »

I think you did well with your answer.

I think it is possible to have different ideas of what feels like emotional intimacy. I think sex is at the top of that for some people and if sex is there, well that is mostly enough for some people.

Emotional talking seems to stress out my H. If we have a talk about the kids, or current events, well we have talked as far as he is concerned. If I say I want deeper talk- he acts confused.

I can not recall a time when I tried to talk in an emotionally intimate fashion and it hasn't deteriorated into a circular discussion which left me feeling isolated and frustrated.

If I have something very emotional to discuss, I have made appointments with MC. I don't think I can do this without the presence of a moderator to keep things on track.

Sometimes my H has mentioned that I talk less. I don't think it is because he needs the deeper talking, but because he knows I would like it and I think he wonders how I could let it go, but I felt I had to for my own sanity as to keep trying was not working.

This was one of the things that I thought would get better after marriage- that he was just shy and would open up, but I realize now that these kinds of illusions can be wishful thinking. What you see at the altar is usually just that.

I have been pretty honest in my reply- that it doesn't work. I chose to simply accept that about him. When I stopped pushing for that, he seems more relaxed and seems to talk more. Radical acceptance helps. He seems to need a lot of emotional space.

Seems FF that you do have some good times with your wife- cuddling, sex, - could that be all she needs? If so, maybe the glass is half full and a half full glass can be enough?
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2016, 04:28:16 PM »

Excerpt
But... .yes... .underneath it all was a long sigh and knowledge that this is a question that doesn't get answered "correctly"... .

My suspicion is, that this question, for someone like your wife, is less about achieving satisfaction or satiation with an answer that is "correct."

I suspect it is more like a compass in the usual "push/pull;" just an indicator for her to use in her ongoing, never-ending movement on her pendulum swing.

She is stuck on a pendulum... .maybe mid swing... .but cannot recall if it is an upswing or down swing, so is gauging the situation for her own ride.  

My point: I doubt any "correct" answer would allow her to sit still with what was being presented to her.

More like a cue on what direction she is to head next.

Idk... .my rambling rambles here.

I think your answer was perfect.
She is left with deciding for herself where she is at.
Vs shifting her inner world into an outworld expression.

Maybe stated as... .
She is used to having an "outer source" responsible for her feelings... .
Someone says/does something => she reacts.
So what happens when she has feelings and has no idea where they originated?
Probably pokes and prods to find a place for them to have originated.

Maybe the habit of reacting... .
She is wanting a reason to react.

Or maybe I'm waaay out there! :P
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2016, 12:39:41 AM »

Basically she wanted to know "where we are?" (as in our relationship)

I dunno how I'd answer that in the context of a BPD r/s, but I know what I believe the answer to that is:

Where "we" are isn't a valid question. Instead it is two different questions combined in an unhealthy way:

Where am I?
-and-
Where are you?

And in a non-BPD r/s, I'd probably point this out, and ask her where she is. Or ask her if she's concerned about where I might be.

And if it was late at night and I was tired, I probably would try to punt for a later time.

And knowing some of the fears and concerns that FFwife has, I'm not sure a direct approach like that is a good idea. Perhaps better to kinda dodge the whole thing.
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« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2016, 06:25:41 AM »

I think it is a good thing that you dodged the question.

That kind of question- how are we doing- or some variation ( for my H it starts with " you" aren't paying as much attention to me. The "we" part - which means his part in it isn't what he is asking).

This, to me, is either bait - to get into one of those emotional no solution conversations or to feel me out because he just isn't sure what is going on with me.

Me, being such an expressive person- who desires to share, would open up, reveal my feelings. Then, he'd either get triggered and this was a good bad feeling release for him, leaving me feeling vulnerable or hurt, or I'd open up, but he wouldn't. Then the conversation would feel one sided.

I so badly wanted to know my H better- to know his true feelings, but I realized during a time when he was angry and not in control of his words- that this was it. What I heard was him, in the moment. The rest of the time, he is tightly guarded. If I leave that guardedness alone, he is calmer, happier, and we do better.  

How are we doing? That is actually in the moment. In the moment- you are both calm and cuddling. You're doing well.

One book that helped me was one titled how to save your marriage without talking. It was not written specifically about BPD but I liked the ideas in it. Such a foreign idea to me. I am a talker- it is how I often relate to people. But it does not work with my H and unless something changes, I don't go there.

You're cuddling, your wife asks "how are we doing" - just say " I love you sweetie and I am enjoying this"  IMHO better to not bite the drama hook. If the two of you were capable of having such discussions, you would not have the communicative issues you have now. If it was serious to discuss, then that moment might be better discussed in counseling.
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« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2016, 08:57:15 AM »

 
I suspect it was a (intentional or not) hook for some kind of drama.

Remember... .it started off with her apologizing vaguely and acknowledging she had done wrong.  Accusing, speaking unkindly.  No specific instances... .but a broad thing.

Then... where are we at.

Also... .she knew she "had me at my worst"... .I was up later than I normally am.

Plus... .she is less guarded as it was recently after sex.

In the end... who knows. 

She has a mentor (at church) that seems to be pushing her in the right direction. 

1.  Don't worry about FF's sin... .worry about yours.
2.  Don't worry about FF's "heart"... .worry about yours.
3.  I know she has heavily cautioned my wife to stay away from "knowing" my motivations.

We'll never know how much of this she is taking onboard, but it appears to me the pot is being stirred to some extent.

I'm certainly enjoying the relative stability of things lately.

Going to kick this around with P today. 

FF
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2016, 05:04:45 PM »



P thought the response I gave to "how are we doing" was a good one.  She further explained that the next morning when my wife was grumpy... .I should have foreseen this... .since she had been incredibly open the night before.  The next morning she would need to "push" me away a bit to sort out who she was... .or the lack of knowledge about who she was.

I had offered to bring her a biscuit in bed... .she assured me she was up... .and had zero interest in a biscuit in bed.

I would have been better off to realize that the night before she was vulnerable... .so that morning I would give her hug and kiss... .and let her know I was off to make biscuits... .and she was welcome to come join me.  But to leave it in her corner.

As to the issue of if I follow up on the talk about "where we are"... .she generally said no... .that I should let her bring it back up again.  She thought for a bit and said it would likely be "best" if I could find a time when it was obvious my wife wouldn't have the time to talk "right then"... .approach her in a friendly and flirty way... .mention that I had more thoughts about that talk and was looking forward to discussing it. 

Basically a way to flirt and put the ball in her court.

At the end of the day P is sure that she has no interest in a "real" conversation about where we are at... .because such a conversation would entail things I'm not happy about... or she was "wrong" about.

FF
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2016, 11:05:58 AM »

At the end of the day P is sure that she has no interest in a "real" conversation about where we are at... .because such a conversation would entail things I'm not happy about... or she was "wrong" about.

BINGO.

Real vulnerability and openness presented to you won't feel so much like a trap.

And I doubt your wife is going to feel safe enough to do that without a lot more healing and growth on her part.
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