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livednlearned
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« on: November 08, 2016, 09:12:32 AM »

This is me venting.

SO's D19 calls to talk to him every day. Every. Day. Plus constant text messages. I don't know why this pushes such a big button in me.

And it's not just the calling, texting, constant need for reassurance, it's this other thing where she just camps out on the phone and has nothing to say. And I mean nothing, like no words, just silence. SO will ask her how she's doing, the usual pleasantries, and will then run out of things to say, so there are lots of long pauses. It is agonizing to hear him wind down the call because short of saying, "I am hanging up now" he says it in 10 different ways. He yawns. He says it's late and he's ready for bed. He tells her have a good night, and her response is to say nothing and then start a new topic. He will take the bait and they'll talk longer, and I can practically hear the eggshells crunching in his voice, he's so worried about upsetting her.

This happens right around bedtime, which my T says is likely purposeful, as a way to get her dad's attention and divert it her way. Maybe. I also noticed in my N/BPDx that his symptoms would get worse toward night, as though the prospect of me going to sleep started to make him feel tremors of abandonment, and that is my gut sense about what is going on for D19. Her roommates are probably at the library studying and she is alone, and feels scared experiencing her own emptiness.

It's frustrating to be in this step role and not be able to talk about the elephant in the room. She is so clearly BPD, and not being able to talk about it feels like choosing to not address it.

It's not the worst behavior for someone with BPD (she's more like a quiet borderline). Even so, I hate to admit how much it irritates me. SO and I were in the car driving and she called, which put her on speakerphone and it was like fireworks in my brain, having to listen to it and not feel like I could walk into the next room and pull myself together. 




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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2016, 12:25:31 PM »

Wow, this sounds so exhausting... .I'm sorry to hear that you're in that situation.

From my (professional) experiece with some young pwBPD (about your SD's age) I can only say that this "last minute" thing is quite common. If they feel their needs for validation aren't met throughout the day, or, like you say, don't get along with their emptiness, they will come to the person on the late shift, say, 5 minutes before their shift ends and the nightwatch takes over, mostly with wild claims or threats. This can be seen as a test of the relationship, like "am I important enough for you to stay at work any longer?" and needs to be met with boundaries. I know, your SO is her dad, so of course this is a whole different situation, but what could you do to help your SD deal with the situation while also keeping up the boundaries?

Just some random ideas:

- Stick to schedules. She can have (for example) 30 minutes per evening. This is her time and it's reservated for her. If something interferes with her personal phone time, make clear rules when she can have "extratime" as substitution. I find schedules to be very effective.
- This is more of a thing to use in a therapuetic setting, but anyway, we work with "skills", which stem from DBT and are indeed nothing but alterntives to destructive behaviour when it comes to bad feelings. Sure, it is a valid thing to seek for help and talk to people, but how constructive is this in your case? What does it do on the relationship level? As I said, a skill list or skills box is nothing a parent should do with their kid, but maybe encouraging her to find a way to deal with bad feelings can help? Like making suggestions what she could do instead of just stay on the phone in silence. I see that this is a thing that SO has to do, but maybe you could encourage him to offer advice on how to distract her. You see, I try to think systemically in every way of life, and if you change your behaviour, your SO will also, which in the end changes the whole system.
- Maybe you and SO could find an activity before going to sleep that can be as fix of a date as her telephone time. Like watching a show, reading a book, whatever ritual seems adaptable. And kindly remind DH to stick to this when he loses himself in endless phone calls again.

I hope this will change very soon and SD finds a better pastime than to phone your SO.

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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2016, 10:39:15 AM »

Feel free to vent! (But don't mind me, I'll try to suggest constructive things for you anyways! )

I don't know why this pushes such a big button in me.

Why it pushes a button in you? Probably because you see somebody you care about being manipulated by standard BPD games. Nothing like the zeal of the newly reformed to really push a button!

Excerpt
This happens right around bedtime... .

Your SO is caught in a codependent dynamic with D19. I think I once posted a topic here with a title like "mild BPD or horrible codependence?" because my wife (at the time) didn't seem nearly as bad as most pwBPD, and much of what she did was kinda codependent. And the answer to the question is something about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I think   

That said, the tools you learned here are still available to you even though your partner is waaaay on the healthy side compared to the people you learned them for.

You WANT your SO to behave differently, but you can't make that happen. Any attempts to discuss/negotiate with him how to work on his codependency with his children/exW on your part seem like a bad idea. One dose of radical acceptance for you is in order. (Unless SO actively asks you for help applying your amazing boundary enforcement skills with his kids... .hmmm... .might want to go light with it even then, dunno!)

(And remember... .it is OK to really really really WANT your SO to figure this out!)

You might choose to enforce some boundaries around your bedtime, perhaps ask him not to take evening calls from D19 in the bedroom so that listening to this doesn't mess with you at night? Your SO is healthy; I'd expect him to respond easily to reasonable boundaries, unlike a pwBPD, i.e. D19.

Last option, out of the normal box: What about trying to build trust and a better relationship with D19? Surely you can find some things to validate with her if you ever talk with her.
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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2016, 10:53:00 AM »


You WANT your SO to behave differently, but you can't make that happen. Any attempts to discuss/negotiate with him how to work on his codependency with his children/exW on your part seem like a bad idea. One dose of radical acceptance for you is in order. (Unless SO actively asks you for help applying your amazing boundary enforcement skills with his kids... .hmmm... .might want to go light with it even then, dunno!)

(And remember... .it is OK to really really really WANT your SO to figure this out!)

Of course, this is 100% true. It's also not lnl's part to change so's behaviour. I was referring to encouragement, not getting into discussion about their codepencence. E.g., if I see an unhealthy egshelly pattern with dh and ss9, i validate and then just offer help. Same with BPDx. If he's open to advise, perfect. If i see this pattern returning, i say somethung decently. If we act in patterns, we're not aware of them most of the time, that's why i tend to just verbalize what i see in a neutral way. Don't know if this makes sense.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2016, 01:00:06 PM »

Feel free to vent! (But don't mind me, I'll try to suggest constructive things for you anyways! )

 Smiling (click to insert in post)

Any attempts to discuss/negotiate with him how to work on his codependency with his children/exW on your part seem like a bad idea. One dose of radical acceptance for you is in order. (Unless SO actively asks you for help applying your amazing boundary enforcement skills with his kids... .hmmm... .might want to go light with it even then, dunno!)

I am working on radical acceptance. It seems to be tied to how well I'm taking care of myself in general. I try to center myself and just hang out with the irritability I feel, and not have it spill over too much. I think that's the one thing I struggle with the most. How to describe it. I guess it's me trying to not feel like a scold. I'm not scolding openly, but inside it's a big struggle to calm the waters.

(And remember... .it is OK to really really really WANT your SO to figure this out!)

I got that one down  Being cool (click to insert in post)

You might choose to enforce some boundaries around your bedtime, perhaps ask him not to take evening calls from D19 in the bedroom so that listening to this doesn't mess with you at night? Your SO is healthy; I'd expect him to respond easily to reasonable boundaries, unlike a pwBPD, i.e. D19.

Like you mentioned (wise kitty   Being cool (click to insert in post)), hammering on this point is not a good idea. We went to counseling together and out of that process discussed bedtime boundaries. SO talked to D19 about this, and like you can imagine, that boundary is pretty flimsy. Instead of not calling after 9pm, she started calling at 8:55pm, then 9pm, then 9:30pm. We're back to her calling whenever. I try to be compassionate, I know he's trying. I can also tell he is doing this 50 percent for me, and 50 percent for himself. I don't say anything because I don't have to. Everything has already been said. I wish he could see that having no boundaries around this is actually not good for her. But he's too deep in the dance.

Last option, out of the normal box: What about trying to build trust and a better relationship with D19? Surely you can find some things to validate with her if you ever talk with her.

This has been my gold standard. And yet. I am very careful about establishing too close of a relationship because I experienced an immediate counter punch at the end of the summer, right before she left to return to college. It was textbook BPD where she was emotionally aroused (about her mom), and I carefully validated her, then she poured out a lot of stuff (including coming out to me as gay), I made an innocuous comment and she interpreted it in the most negative way (she thought me saying SO is not homophobic, that I would not be with someone homophobic meant that I was leaving SO). Then she became extremely upset that I was leaving, and it was like seeing her transfer her fear of abandonment/re-trauma around her parents' divorce onto me. It was like seeing her see me as her mom. I have some skills, but that moment was tough for both of us. It worries me, too, that the closer she gets to me, the harder it is for her with her mom, who punishes her for liking anything connected to her dad. Including our dog 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm working on this. I texted her this morning -- I knew she would be emotional about the US election results. It's the first time I reached out to her, usually it's the other way around. Interesting to me is the recognition that she responded like SO would respond, focusing on the positive instead of rolling around in the emotions. I think she may also be telling me what she thinks I want to hear.

@catclaw,

Thank you too for the comment about young BPDs and nighttime need for reassurance. That makes sense. I'm probably also more sensitive to it at night because I'm tired. My uBPD brother was the same way, and as a kid I had to put my pillow on the floor next to his bed until he fell asleep  pretty twisted, and it went on for as long as I could remember. He hated to be alone at night, and N/BPDx used to also get wound up at night. This is probably half of the big button that gets pushed.

Sticking to schedules is easier said than done with me in the step role. I can only protect my own boundaries and be supportive of SO when he asks for help. I know he respects my thoughts. He saw how I was with D19 over the summer and trusts what I'm going for -- he wants the same thing I do, we just have different ideas about how to get there.

And the truth is, I do interfere   I try to do it in a way that is respectful of how hard it is to change. SO sees me with S15 and is patient with me as I ease my own son toward emotional resilience, so we are kinda shoulder to shoulder in this work, except I have this big button about late night calls and texts from D19.



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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2016, 02:56:13 PM »

Is it that wrong for SO to reset his boundary with the reason being, "this is Me Time to unwind from the day, take life a little slower since I'm older, watch a movie, read a magazine or book, relax with LnL, etc".  Sure there can and will be exceptions.  But the thing with boundaries is that some people can see the occasional exception as an opening to push it a little more the next time, etc, even if not done (so far as can be discerned) purposely or consciously.  And SO may not notice it as such.

Though I can understand there's a fine line between reminders and nagging/harping, a lot is in the eye (ear) of the beholder.
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2016, 04:37:59 PM »

Is it that wrong for SO to reset his boundary with the reason being, "this is Me Time to unwind from the day, take life a little slower since I'm older, watch a movie, read a magazine or book, relax with LnL, etc".  Sure there can and will be exceptions.  But the thing with boundaries is that some people can see the occasional exception as an opening to push it a little more the next time, etc, even if not done (so far as can be discerned) purposely or consciously.  And SO may not notice it as such.

Though I can understand there's a fine line between reminders and nagging/harping, a lot is in the eye (ear) of the beholder.

SO has that magical boundary thinking where he just wants to say it and have it be so. He's already told D19 he goes to bed at 9pm, and he gets up at 5am. She knows this. In fact, I think she calls late to see if she can get him to trample his own boundary, to prove he cares about her. If he didn't have that boundary, it might not be worth as much to her.

It's not just the time-boundary thing, either. It's also the content of the discussions. I have codependent tendencies myself (in check, I like to think  ) so maybe I am actually gnashing my teeth at myself. But sometimes when D19 calls it is real helpless bs type stuff. SO can't help himself from rescuing her, which honestly sounds a whole lot like talking to her as though she is an idiot. I feel irritated by both of them, and it sucks the life out of me. It's a struggle to maintain whatever mood I was in before the call comes.

He is terrified that she will have another psychotic episode. And I understand that. My T said that psychotic episodes can be scary, and they can also be a saving grace because they are the psyche's way to crying to the kind of help they need, often more than families can provide their loved ones. That makes sense in a strangely pragmatic way.

SO is "allergic" to D19's feelings, that's how it looks to me, and that is the opposite of what is healthy, imo. I try to translate, which he finds helpful, even though he resists any hint of strong emotion from her.

Idk. Feels like master class kind of stuff 
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2016, 08:14:26 AM »

Like you mentioned (wise kitty   Being cool (click to insert in post)), hammering on this point is not a good idea. We went to counseling together and out of that process discussed bedtime boundaries. SO talked to D19 about this, and like you can imagine, that boundary is pretty flimsy. Instead of not calling after 9pm, she started calling at 8:55pm, then 9pm, then 9:30pm. We're back to her calling whenever. I try to be compassionate, I know he's trying. I can also tell he is doing this 50 percent for me, and 50 percent for himself. I don't say anything because I don't have to. Everything has already been said. I wish he could see that having no boundaries around this is actually not good for her. But he's too deep in the dance.

Back up a bit on the boundaries, 'cuz there are two kinds here:

1. Boundaries your SO has with D19 (and other kids and exW). From YOUR point of view, those boundaries are pronounced "wishful thinking". 

In other words, D19 will keep calling and lingering at bedtime.

2. Boundaries you have with your SO. These are to protect your quality of life and improve your r/s with your SO. You get to do these!

Your bedtime is 9pm. (Assuming it is; you just mentioned your SO's schedule)

Gnashing your teeth listening to your SO have his boundaries blown through by D19 doesn't improve your sleep. (Especially as you have long-standing triggers/sensitivity around sleep issues!)

Insisting that he take any night calls from D19 outside the bedroom and away from you is something you can do, which will improve your quality of life. Yes, you may still *know* that they are at it, but at least you don't have to listen to it. (And as a bonus, SO will be gently reminded that he's facing your good boundaries when he's letting his get trampled. )

I have codependent tendencies myself (in check, I like to think  ) so maybe I am actually gnashing my teeth at myself. But sometimes when D19 calls it is real helpless bs type stuff. SO can't help himself from rescuing her, which honestly sounds a whole lot like talking to her as though she is an idiot. I feel irritated by both of them, and it sucks the life out of me. It's a struggle to maintain whatever mood I was in before the call comes.

You don't have to fix this. You know you can't. And you know how much that sucks. And none of this is news to you. Here's the part you may not have quite caught:

You don't have to expose yourself to it. Pull yourself out.

Win for you--you don't have to deal with it.
Win for SO--His way of dealing with D19 becomes simpler and more straightforward and easier for him to figure out. (Because you don't push on him and muddy the waters) No, he won't get immediately better, but at least he has more room to do so.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2016, 10:05:25 AM »

Your bedtime is 9pm. (Assuming it is; you just mentioned your SO's schedule)

Kinda. What we were going for initially is that 9pm is supposed to be our time. We get into bed, watch a favorite show, snuggle, talk, be intimate. This actually came out of the summer counseling sessions. Early summer, before counseling, D19 would sit on the couch with us when we watched a show. Lots of physical boundary issues, like her wanting to hug and hold SO (with me sitting right there, very awkward feeling). If D19 felt that SO and I were engrossed in a show, she would try to divert his attention. It was truly like having a toddler. She would hold up her phone in front of our faces to show us stuff she found funny on FB, or,  awkwardly hug her dad and make it hard for him to see the screen.

So we worked out this compromise where he spent most of his time with D19 after he got home either going to the gym with her, walking the dog, making dinner. I would choose to participate when I wanted, including dinner, which was a minefield of triggers for me. Sometimes I did things separately with S15 or did my own school work. The deal we made is that 9pm, we went into our bedroom, closed the door, and it was our time.

Aaaaaaand, D19 started to text her dad from her room at 9pm.   Usually, some kind of major stress that came out of nowhere (boss doesn't like me, mom is saying xyz, having a panic attack, feeling depressed, etc.)

So 9pm is kind of a shared boundary. It sounds like what I need to do is say, this is my boundary.

Excerpt
Insisting that he take any night calls from D19 outside the bedroom and away from you is something you can do, which will improve your quality of life. Yes, you may still *know* that they are at it, but at least you don't have to listen to it. (And as a bonus, SO will be gently reminded that he's facing your good boundaries when he's letting his get trampled. )

This might actually work. I can already tell there will be guilt on my part for sending him out of the bedroom to talk. Then I think back to my irritation when I contemplated going into another room to sleep. It felt like I had control over my boundary, but also ended up with me sleeping in another bed, which didn't feel quite right.

It also feels a bit difficult to enforce -- what to do when it's just text messages? It seems strangely rigid to say he has to go out into the cold part of the house to answer a text.

One thing we have worked on and made improvements around is that he does not have his phone on when we are intimate, and he does not check his phone when we are out having dinner. The loose boundary is definitely in that 9-11pm stretch when I think D19 knows she can get a foot in the door.

I have been doing this thing my T taught me (can't remember what it's called... .cognitive interviewing?) where I ask him a question that . For example, D19 calls with a crisis, he gets very emotionally invested, and then the next day, she's fine, like it never happened. I will say, "It seems like you were very upset last night over D19. How is she doing today?"

Always, she is fine. The purpose is to help him see the pattern without harping on it.

Can't believe this topic gets under my skin so much.

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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2016, 10:37:08 AM »

9pm is supposed to be our time. We get into bed, watch a favorite show, snuggle, talk, be intimate.
Excerpt
It also feels a bit difficult to enforce -- what to do when it's just text messages? It seems strangely rigid to say he has to go out into the cold part of the house to answer a text.
Excerpt
Can't believe this topic gets under my skin so much.

 Idea Ahhhhhhh, at least this getting under your skin makes completely sense now! D19 has been trying to pry you away from your SO for months now, and this is an ongoing battle over evening snuggle time. Of course, you, SO, and D19 are all going to be overly sensitive about this!

And if you (and/or SO) push back and apply boundaries with in person time or voice calls, she will continue doing boundary busting with texting, or anything else she can think of.

Defending "our time" after 9pm is a completely reasonable thing to do.

If I get your story about the summer counseling correctly, this was even directly discussed with D19, and she "agreed" but then started texting. So no matter how much she denies it to herself and everybody else, she's going totally boundary-busting on this one.

A boundary around communicating with other people (sans emergencies) at that time is reasonable. Do you or he text other [non-boundary-busting] people at that time?

The more general boundary you can enforce is "I won't want to watch you interacting with D19 during 'our time' after 9pm." And that was, afterall, the whole reason it came about!

Fortunately, your SO isn't a boundary busting pwBPD, so you can probably make it work 99% of the time by asking him to leave. You will seldom (if ever) have to go away yourself.

Hmmmm... .can he "mute" her at 9pm, or whenever the first text comes in after 9pm, so he doesn't see them 'till morning, and the phone doesn't disturb the two of you?  Thought
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2016, 01:14:14 PM »

I'm not entirely sure D19's primary motivation is to pry me away from SO, altho certainly it's a factor. This behavior predates me. If she feels empty, or alone, which is often, she needs reassurance. This goes on throughout the day, and into the night. SO used to complain about it before we lived together.

D19 was not part of our counseling session -- she doesn't know about those sessions. Any kind of boundary that is important to me, I tell her directly. I told her that it was not appropriate for her to come into my bedroom, basically saying: New Rules. There are others, and they were easy to state and protect, and other than a few obvious tests, she complied.

I have these D19 boundaries that are connected to him, and I have been able to manage some of them. Two are about answering her texts during inappropriate times, like sex or having a nice dinner out. For some reason, the 9pm one is a hole big enough for a truck to drive through.

I guess I need to figure out why. It feels unnatural? Maybe we are just closing things down for the night, and I may be doing something like showering. Why is it so wrong for him to answer a text from D19? That's the part I keep tripping over.



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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2016, 01:57:51 PM »

Your SO bending over backwards for D19's neediness is hard to watch. Some of it you can reduce. Some of it you can avoid. And some of it you have to live with.

The problem isn't that one text at 9:08 is a big deal. And if that happened every couple weeks, it wouldn't matter to you either. But if one text becomes an exchange of 8 texts, and happens most evenings, that changes the dynamic, and needs something... .fuzzy mushy boundaries become exactly what you described... .something you can drive a truck through. So if you are going to limit it, you gotta be strict.

And if he does it while you are in the shower... .or walks out to deal with it, that seems fine. You don't have to watch it.
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 09:07:25 AM »

Thanks GK.

I am all over the place on this.

When she was here over the summer, if I felt triggered, I would go in my room, put on noise-canceling headphones, and meditate, so that's what I've been doing.

Earlier in the week I went to see an expert talk about how to transition teens with mental health illnesses from high school to college, and it boiled down to ":)on't Be Codependent With Your Kid." I went for myself, but realized how much applies to D19. The expert said parents and teens should have a contract about how much contact they will have, except the contract was to help the parent control their need to know everything when their teen goes off to college, whereas in SO's situation, it's the reverse. D19 is the one who has no boundaries.

Last night, D19 texted compulsively, which usually leads to a long phone call, and it did. I tried to just sit with my feelings and feel compassion for her. I know in these moments that she is probably terrified about feeling empty and alone. SO tries to gently wind down the call, asking her if there is anything she wants to talk about. She kept inventing phony questions, or at least that's how it sounds to me on the outside of the call. He said he was going to go, and she asked if he could stay on the phone anyway. So he had to think of things to say and I could hear the strain in his voice as he tried to fill the silence.

My T recommended that I buy books on BPD and underline passages that I think accurately describe D19's behaviors, and to share with SO so that he can process these observations rationally, with the book as a buffer.

The bottom line is to be strict about this boundary, like you say GK, and since he can't, I feel like I need to put some boundaries around the boundary, so to speak.

I'm thinking about having a talk with SO, to let him know that the 9pm boundary is pretty much not a boundary anymore, and that we can do it the opposite way, where if he wants to spend time with me after 9pm doing something special, then let's make a plan and he can let D19 he won't be available, to get her texts, calls, in before then because he won't have his phone on.

That feels more reasonable to me, even tho maybe it's a compromise where I lose a little of this to gain something of that.

I guess what I want is for him to be intentional about what happens at 9pm.

And to also shine some light on the fact that the boundary has come to mean nothing, and will only have any substance if he backs it.

Maybe I am being a weenie. I also learned the hard way that unless SO asserts boundaries for himself, nothing is going to change.  
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« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2016, 05:04:15 PM »

You can't force him to be with you after 9pm. You made an agreement, and he isn't able to stand up to his part. In all fairness to him, you didn't have anything assigned to you in this agreement that would challenge you or anything; that was all on him!

You can (and I think, should!) tell him that you don't want him to be talking/texting/whatever with D19 after 9pm in your presence. That is a step back from the original agreement.

And you can remove yourself from his presence if he violates that. Perhaps you don't have to tell him, you can simply demonstrate by either asking him to step out or doing so yourself.

You know... .asking him to agree to a lesser version... .which would still require him to assert his non-existent boundaries with D19... .seems far less productive than picking a boundary that you can enforce with him to protect yourself.

Meanwhile, feel free to vent all over the place here (or with other friends!) about SO's inability to enforce boundaries with D19 
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2016, 05:18:08 PM »

If he's hemming and hawing trying to think of things to say in her protracted silences, have you tried alerting him to the fact that he knows it's awkward and he is allowed to disclose to his daughter that it's hard on him to have a protracted conversation where it just seems to circle back on him.  She called him, he didn't call her.  How can he get the message that she's obligating him to do more than his fair share of the convo?

And yes, as you know, he's enabling her.
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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2016, 10:02:06 AM »

You can't force him to be with you after 9pm. You made an agreement, and he isn't able to stand up to his part. In all fairness to him, you didn't have anything assigned to you in this agreement that would challenge you or anything; that was all on him!

And I think that is (to flip it) also what is frustrating. There is nothing on me in the agreement, therefore there is nothing I can control or do.

Excerpt
You can (and I think, should!) tell him that you don't want him to be talking/texting/whatever with D19 after 9pm in your presence. That is a step back from the original agreement.

Here is where I am a weenie. I think I'm beginning to realize where my discomfort is coming from (in setting boundaries around this). D19 isn't harming me. D19 calling SO isn't harming me. To have a strong boundary, I feel like I need it to be fair.
 
Excerpt
And you can remove yourself from his presence if he violates that. Perhaps you don't have to tell him, you can simply demonstrate by either asking him to step out or doing so yourself.

This is sort of happening already, in a way. SO is very intuitive -- we have similar dysfunctional families of origin (no surprise  ) and are both well-trained in paying attention to other people's moods, for better or worse. Usually, I remove myself (headphones, meditating, reading, move to other room) and lately he has been removing himself when he can. He often seems embarrassed after these calls.

Excerpt
You know... .asking him to agree to a lesser version... .which would still require him to assert his non-existent boundaries with D19... .seems far less productive than picking a boundary that you can enforce with him to protect yourself.

You're right. I guess this is really about my threshold for discomfort. Like a lot of codependent-y people, I don't like to inconvenience others. I have to be able to say, "Take it out there so I can relax in here." Focusing on me at someone else's expense is something I've made a lot of progress on, but then I hit these fuzzy areas and backslide.

Excerpt
Meanwhile, feel free to vent all over the place here (or with other friends!) about SO's inability to enforce boundaries with D19 

Here's where I got with venting: pretending that everything is normal, when it is definitely not normal, makes me nuts. This is something that is definitely a hangover from childhood, and then marriage.

SO once asked me why D19 texting him upset me so much, and with the help of my T, I realized that when I see dysfunctional behavior and am told to keep quiet about it -- that makes me so emotional! It's a script that didn't end well for me.

T described it as growing up in a family where emotions are erased, and if emotions (god forbid) are felt, it can be very isolating and lonely because the habits are already in place to self-erase any evidence of those feelings. I do think if D19 was diagnosed BPD, or if SO would acknowledge it, these boundary transgressions would feel different because we could talk about the elephant in the room instead of this secrecy/erasing thing I feel.

Thanks for letting me vent  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
If he's hemming and hawing trying to think of things to say in her protracted silences, have you tried alerting him to the fact that he knows it's awkward and he is allowed to disclose to his daughter that it's hard on him to have a protracted conversation where it just seems to circle back on him. 

I ask him how he feels, and try to shine some light on things, without wading in too deep. At this point, having talked about this at length earlier in the summer, and with a T, it doesn't take much to get him to reflect on what's going on. The hard part, as many of us know, is changing behavior. Mine, his.

I have made some progress. I still have a ways to go. 
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2016, 11:16:25 AM »

Here is where I am a weenie. I think I'm beginning to realize where my discomfort is coming from (in setting boundaries around this). D19 isn't harming me. D19 calling SO isn't harming me. To have a strong boundary, I feel like I need it to be fair.

You sound like you are trying to convince yourself, and talk yourself out of your feelings. Maybe you believe it, but I'm not buying it.

Yeah, if you were perfect, this wouldn't bother you.   You aren't perfect. Watching your SO be codependent and have his boundaries trampled DOES bother you. Even if you think it shouldn't!

Can you allow yourself to have all these messy, ornery, difficult feelings, and not try to talk yourself out of them?
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