Introduction - 24-year marriage coming to an end

[MovingOn23]

Hello, let's see how small of a nutshell I can put my intro into ... .

Married 24+ years to high-functioning BPD wife (she is diagnosed, but does not acknowledge diagnosis nor has been willing to or capable of working on it). Two kids, both boys, one in college (away from home) and one in high school (still at home). All of us well-versed with our dysfunctional family dynamic, and over the years we've developed coping mechanisms (some healthy, some not) to manage as best we could.

Most recently, my wife has increasingly detached herself from the family. Not uncommon during an argument for her to say "I am DONE," and about a month ago she said "I think I need a divorce from this family," to which I lost my temper and said, "then DO it, don't just keep saying you will and then not doing it. You're either in this, or you're not ... ."

Then things cooled off and that argument blew over, but it had really struck a nerve with me, and my ability to tolerate her  BPD behaviors was really wearing thin. For the first time, I was seriously considering whether to continue in the marriage.

Then earlier this week, she said "we need to talk" (which she never says, as we are REALLY good at NOT talking about things, because most of the time if we do, and if ANY amount of blame seems to be pointing in her direction, she shuts down / says she's "done" / removes herself) and basically brought up the elephant that has been in the room for a while - she's been unhappy for a while, I've been giving her her distance but I deserve more than that, she thinks she needs time away ... .she hadn't known what to do, but had a friend who encouraged her to talk to me because I might have been feeling the same way, and guess what, I was. The discussion was uncannily calm and reasonable - at that moment, my wife was the best possible version of herself. And I admitted that I'd been thinking about it a lot too. I asked whether she was saying we should try and work things out, but she said we both know we've tried that before and nothing has worked. Then, before we really finished talking about it, she left the room to do something routine (but it did feel like an avoidance mechanism), and I followed her shortly thereafter, and we had a big hug with big sobbing tears, apologies, etc...

Since then there was one calm day with almost no interaction between us, then yesterday we talked in the morning and filed for Divorce at the courthouse in the afternoon - we did that together (which begins a mandatory 60-day waiting period before the Divorce can be finalized). More tears on both sides, everything extremely amicable, but she chose to stay with a friend (female former co-worker) last night.

Today she is quite upset (emotionally sad), and telling me that I seem very strong and calm, even "relieved," asking in a couple of different ways whether I have someone in mind for a post-marriage relationship (I don't). She even casually threw out a comment to the effect of "and maybe it won't happen" (i.e. maybe we won't go through with the divorce) which caught me off guard, and I probably wasn't very graceful discussing that. Sounds like emotionally she is earlier in the process than I am, that even though she's thrown out leaving as a threat more times than I can count over the years, that now that it's really happening, she's feeling the full impact of what it means.

So far things are very very amicable. She says she "doesn't want anything" but I want to be very fair and equitable. Since she was so freaked out this morning, I told her that I'll hold off talking to a lawyer for now so that we at least have the weekend to talk some more.

Her BPD monster hasn't reared its head yet (at least not in my direction) but I know that the roller coaster ride has only just begun.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi MovingOn23-

And welcome!  I'm sorry you're in the middle of that, 24+ years and two children is a full life, painful and confusing to go through a divorce, especially when your wife is a diagnosed borderline.  The good news is you found us, and there are many people here in similar situations, you're not alone and we understand.

You're in the thick of it right now, and it's helpful to read the information on this site and other posts, and talk, just talking in itself is cathartic, plus you can connect with other folks in your situation or similar, which can help you stay grounded as you walk this path.  Again welcome, and we look forward to supporting you in this transition.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey MovingOn, Welcome!  Many of us have been in your shoes.  In your post, you refer a lot to your W and what she wants -- she's the one who said "we need to talk," right?  The question I have for you is: What would YOU like to see happen?  What is the right path for YOU?  These are hard questions, I know, but might help you to focus your mind on the task ahead.  Fill us in, when you can.

LuckyJim

[MovingOn23]

The question I have for you is: What would YOU like to see happen?  What is the right path for YOU?  These are hard questions, I know, but might help you to focus your mind on the task ahead.  Fill us in, when you can.

Hi LuckyJim (guess I need to figure out how to update my display name). My gut is telling me that now that door has been opened to head straight through it and don't look back. Things are calm and low drama now, but it's only a matter of time before I'll be reminded of the toxicity that I'm ready to be done with. Admittedly, I've gotten lazy in the relationship, so ending it is scary because when I do get to the point of new relationships someday, it's going to take a whole different kind of investment on my part. In fact, the degree of emotional detachment that has been the norm for me and my wife for a while has been easy on some levels, and if I someday pursue what I think will be a far more emotionally connected and fulfilling relationship someday, it's going to require a higher level of reciprocal investment from me.

My heart is still doing a bit of 2nd guessing - could we save the marriage? But it's not like I haven't been over this again and again and again and again in my head - how could we make it work? How would it work to end it? At the end of every scenario that I play out, we end up right back where we are. As I may have said before, I have almost no confidence that my wife would begin and work through the kind of therapy that would be required to set the stage for the long-term success of our marriage.

As you can expect, I've had my frustrating times with the marriage and my wife off and on over the years, but I think it was the repeated instances of emotional blackmail that wore me down to the point that I was considering calling it quits. I'm a conflict avoider, so I've found ways to try and "keep the peace" over the years. In some ways, I'm glad we held it together as long as we did, but in more ways, I think it would have been better for everyone involved if we'd come to this conclusion a long time ago.

I really have loved her, or maybe was in love with saving her from a f*d up childhood, or in love with the idea of making it succeed against any rational prediction, or in love with the idea of being the first person she has ever been able to always count on being there for her - but I feel like I really do love her. Conversely, it took me a long time to realize that she doesn't emotionally connect in relationships the same way a non-BPD would - that I'm not really her "everything," that she may never feel that way about anyone ... .

[Lucky Jim]

Hey MovingOn23,  OK, sounds like you are in touch w/your gut feelings, which is a good sign.

In some ways, I'm glad we held it together as long as we did, but in more ways, I think it would have been better for everyone involved if we'd come to this conclusion a long time ago.

Many of us stayed longer than was healthy, so you are not alone, believe me.

Keep us posted as things unfold in the coming days.

LuckyJim

[MovingOn23]

A very "normal" weekend day at home today with son and wife. Actually a really good day, which sucks, because it aligns me with the better parts of our past, rather than reinforcing the reasons we are breaking up. Haven't told the kids about the divorce plans yet, that will be later this week when our son comes home from college and we can tell both kids in person at the same time.

BPD wife is still very subdued and caring, but when discussing the divorce proceedings we are only skimming the surface rather than beginning any of the work we have to undertake to draft and eventually finalize an agreement.

[Sluggo]

very "normal" weekend day at home today

Yes it is those calm days that seem to usually come just at the right time to make me second and third guess. 

It sometimes feels like in an ocean between the giant waves.  I would be so relieved things were calm I did not want to do anything to rock the boat again.  But as always another wave would be coming and I would hold my breath as long as I could until the 'wave' passed.  For me, I think my wife knew how long I could stay 'under her wave of water' without drowning and pull me up just in time.    And over the 18 years, it felt like I just could not hold my breath anymore. 

[MovingOn23]

DAY 7

ANGRY. Really wound up. I'm sure this is part of the roller coaster - the stages of mourning that will be visiting me, whether I like it or not, like the ghosts in A Christmas Carol.

Feeling betrayed and deceived - like she never was the person I thought she was.
(More accurately, she is probably not the person I’ve wanted her to be)
Kicking myself that I’ve been really kind to her, telling her even since we started the breakup how much I’ve loved her, all of the things I’ve loved about her, how she’s been my everything.

And while I read articles about getting through this, I find that she’s mostly just been searching places to live.

SO HARD to keep reminding myself how empty she is inside.

Not like she isn't upset or doesn't get emotional - she does, but I'm not sure it's because she's leaving me.

We've FINALLY talked more about her feelings about the breakup (remember, she and I rarely have been able to discuss anything of substance), and yesterday after the lawyer, she goes back to saying it feels like I'm rushing the process, that it's all moving so fast, but later in the conversation makes it obvious that she considers us separated and open to seeing other people - but we've told almost no one, we are still sleeping in the same bed, we haven't set any "rules" like whether we agree to let the other know if we aren't coming home on a given night ... .

Let's face it - she is just buying time until she figures out how to move out - and after that, she's just buying more time to sort out her financial independence. Which leaves me wondering how long has she been perpetuating the "marriage" just because she didn't see any way out.

I NEED to take the high road and not get sucked into a black hole of blame and regret and hate and resentment - maybe I need a way to visit that place in some limited way - but I am LIVID LIVID LIVID LIVID. I'll be damned - I have enabled this for over 25 years. I've been chasing a mirage for over 25 years. I ignored the obvious red flags, and missed so many less obvious ones. WTF? I'm supposed to be a smart person - I'm NOT this stupid - but apparently I am.

And I'll soon be marketing a 50+ year old guy who can't make babies and sleeps with a retainers and a CPAP - a guy who may not be in a position financially to to take a date out to nice restaurants or to a nice hotel - a guy who's introverted and less-than-comfortable getting out into unfamiliar social situations - a guy with no biceps, no 6-pack … At least I still have a full head of hair that isn't gray, I don't have a hairy back, I'm not short, and I don't need a prescription to get it up.

This in-between time - mostly because the house hasn't sold - is the worst. That will be a definitive event that will result in our moving into separate residences.

And I still have to work, make sure dinner happens every night, and answer every ___ing person I pass in the hallway that asks "how are you" with a ___ing "great, thanks for asking" bull___ before going back to clenching my teeth.

[Dutched]

MovingOn23

Reading your post reminded me of my own 30+ yrs. and it is certainly an emotional rollercoaster.
That will take a lot of effort to stop it and even longer to step out of it.
There is unbelief, sorrow, guilt, angriness but also the deep attachment.
To be blunt. Now it is time to think rationally, to take care of your future as too many will be gone soon.

So high road or not, it doesn’t matter now.
= get to the legal section of the board, read, read and ask questions.
= start journaling all events hat take place, incl date and time!
= get all your legal documents, store them in a save place.
= watch your finances, may open a second account on your name only
= change passwords etc.
= family belongings, store them somewhere
= take pictures of the inside of your house as evidence.
= instruct your lawyer, tell him about BPD and high conflict divorces, about feelings and facts.
As they don’t know, they will likely go for an easy standard procedure.   
   
As far as the emotional interaction.
= for pwBPD feelings becomes facts! Therefore your evidence based on facts.
= remind yourself that once the procedure in progress, stbex won’t be recognisable…  she needs to survive and will act accordingly!
= don’t let her seduce you with her demands, stick to your interests. It is your future now!

As you already mentioned, she is buying time…
Sleeps though still in your bed… why?(similar exw that found it 'of course'... .I told her to get out of my bed).

Told exw: you stop? you want a divorce? Then you get out of the house!

You take care of dinner / household? What is she contributing? Agree something.
In the meanwhile, how is the income split, are costs for clothes, cell phones, etc. agreed? Agree something.
I don’t tell you this to create upheaval, I tell you this to state your boundaries, to take care of you!

And you are certainly not stupid! You knew, didn’t had the tools, tried to handle it, wanted it to work, tried as best you could, was holding on your vow.
But… with age an untreated (my experience and more on this board with a very long r/s) it got worse.

Hang in there and post and ask.   

[c_craig_k]

I NEED to take the high road and not get sucked into a black hole of blame and regret and hate and resentment - maybe I need a way to visit that place in some limited way - but I am LIVID LIVID LIVID LIVID. I'll be damned - I have enabled this for over 25 years. I've been chasing a mirage for over 25 years. I ignored the obvious red flags, and missed so many less obvious ones. WTF? I'm supposed to be a smart person - I'm NOT this stupid - but apparently I am.

17 yrs here. 10 married. Two kids. I'm just starting the process, so I'm no guru. You aren't alone. There were red flags, but be kind to yourself. They give you so many conflicting messages that keep you off balance.

[MovingOn23]

Thanks for the advice!

So far things are very very amicable. I'll be posting some other journal entries just to share some of the roller coaster ride. I think in some ways she is relieved and looking forward to giving things a go on her own for the first time ever. Being so amicable, though, really generates so many conflicting emotions.

[Dutched]

Thanks for the advice!

So far things are very very amicable. I'll be posting some other journal entries just to share some of the roller coaster ride. I think in some ways she is relieved and looking forward to giving things a go on her own for the first time ever. Being so amicable, though, really generates so many conflicting emotions.

Yes, I know, it is conflicting.  Seen also that amicable behaviour. And once gone be prepared that you are needed… to help, to solve, for the sake of old days…   

[MovingOn23]

DAY 21

And then she shows you the floor plan of the apartment she thinks she's going to rent when she moves out - and it squeezes the life out of your heart because you're happy for her and so alone and everything was ok earlier today and all of a sudden it's totally f*cked again. And she wants to know what you think but you know that you really don't have any business weighing in on her future without you - and she doesn't fully get that because she's not a whole person but you fooled yourself into thinking you had so much more together.

Losing what you never really had shouldn't hurt as much as this.

And I worry for her safety living alone, and I worry that she won't eat or won't be able to pay her bills - but I'm supposed to not worry about her any more. And she seems kind of excited and that sucks, because maybe that's how she should have lived when she was 19 rather than marrying me. And f*ck, I forgot to make it look to her like I don't care so I don't come across like a needy wimp who is still affected by her.

[c_craig_k]

Being so amicable, though, really generates so many conflicting emotions.

I feel for 'ya, brother. I've learned not to take the bait and fight, or react to the subtle provocations and insults, but the friendliness is the toughest to manage.

The image I've used is that these moments are an invitation from my exBPD. I imagine her pulling out a chair and offering me something to drink. And then I remember that at some point she will not only push the chair back in, she will accuse me of being manipulative and violating her boundaries for wanting to take the seat that was previously offered with such openness.

[MovingOn23]

Last week I went out of town on a trip that had been planned months ago - a birthday celebration, meeting relatives and siblings and their significant others out of state in a major city for some fun. Originally wife would have attended with me, but that all changed when we separated.

Apparently this was a MAJOR trigger - me traveling, her feeling very left out, me having fun, her not having visibility into what kind of fun I was having. The texts began with her encouraging me to be comfortable sharing things about my trip on social media, then having issues with me not being responsive (I was busy, traveling, visiting relatives, participating in activities).

Next there were texts telling me to have fun, how I'm a "new man," how I should enjoy myself.
Then how she suddenly is thinking that she has made a terrible mistake, how she has "screwed up"
Then frikkin 3 solid days of flipping between "I will let you go because that's what you want" and "I thought this was only a separation" - she was a total mess, but didn't want me worrying about her. Wouldn't talk to any friends or a counselor, because there's "nothing to talk about."

All of a sudden, it's ME who had one foot out the door, who she believes decided a long time ago that it was over (really?). This, from the woman who already moved out into her own apartment - who had told me multiple times that I'm free to see and even sleep with other people!

Again and again, she cast the line of "divorce is what you want, right?" just waiting for me to take the bait and be the bad guy. Now she says she wants to work on it - that she wants to try to see if we can take apart what we had and put it back together into something that is fulfilling for both of us.

I keep reminding her that for things to change, it will require change from BOTH of us. I keep reminding her that the goal of marriage counseling is not to keep the couple together, but rather to guide the people to discover what they really want their path to be.

She says she wants to try, but after 2 sessions, I have only seen her point out faults in my behavior / inadequacies in my personality. This sucks, but I think it's too early to in good conscience write off the process. I think I need a clearer indication from her and the counselor that it's going to go nowhere. Please tell me that won't be long.

In the meantime, she keeps me jumping through hoops, confirming that I really am willing to try, and that I'm not only doing this to appease her. I keep telling her that if SHE really is going to give it her all, then I'm willing to do that with her - but that even both of us giving it our all may only result in going our separate ways after all.

:-P

[Lucky Jim]

Hey MO23, I wonder what she means by "giving it her all"?  What would that look like?  What would be different?  It's hard to make progress in the BPD swamp!  LJ

[Stolen]

DAY 21


Losing what you never really had shouldn't hurt as much as this.


I think I will engrave this in stone.  So true.

[MovingOn23]

Hey MO23, I wonder what she means by "giving it her all"?  What would that look like?  What would be different?  It's hard to make progress in the BPD swamp!  LJ

Well, first she'd have to admit she has behavioral issues that she needs to work on. Then, she'd have to actually work on them. I have little faith that either will happen.

I'm working with my individual counselor on better managing my boundaries - I have a feeling that as I manage my boundaries with her better, that she will be more and more frustrated, and less and less interested in pursuing a relationship with me.

[ACObound]

I hear you and feel your pain.  36 years here and was served the other day.  Which surprised me in a way, that an actual decision was made.   Spent alot of time on the Conflict and Deciding side. 
Thanks for sharing your experience.  Very similar to mine and I already feeling alot of the same. 
I understand your frustration on the couples counseling.  First counselor 2 years ago lasted 4 sessions.  This counselor(a great one) lasted 8.  Hardest thing to remind oneself and never got through to my uBPD, he is not treating either one, he is treating the relationship.  the relationship is the patient. 
Both times, uBPD cut stopped.

I am sure I will keep some posting... .right now... .I need to get on a bicycle, my salvation,

I know it is going to be a roller coaster of thoughts similar to what you have posted.  I will change my mind, question myself, get sucked in and out of the vortex alot in the months ahead... .right now I'm determined and

I'm Movin On

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz1N8W8phec

[MovingOn23]

2 months later - 4 months since initial separation conversation / 2 months since we began couples counseling. Progress has mostly been positive, with only a couple of backward steps along the way. What has changed?

My BPD wife hasn't yet acknowledged BPD, but has acknowledged and is working on controlling behaviors. She has been more easygoing and more ready to "go with the flow" and enjoy, rather than criticize, a situation. There have definitely been numerous examples of situations that would have escalated to an ugly, toxic level in the past that just plain didn't.

I have identified, acknowledged, and I'm working on communicating more directly - not beating around the bush, sugar-coating, or watering down what it is I'm really trying to get across (which is what I would have done before - I would have worried about what she would think / how she would react and tried to make my communication as palatable as possible for her.

What is still standing in our way? We are, of course LOL! I am going to need her to own her part of our problems - acknowledge them and work to address them. For me, that's currently a major missing component.

We have been dating and really enjoying each other's company in that context. We are also consistently being physically intimate WAY more often than before.

We did experiment last week with her coming over to live at the house for several days while my college-age son was home for spring break - this was a suggestion from our counselor to see how we did and whether we could put our new communications skills into practice when there were more stresses around than when we date. There were a couple of rough spots over the course of a couple of days, which I quickly internalized and projected our 25 years of problems onto. I told her I wanted to move forward with the divorce - but through the sh**storm that ensued over the next 12-24 hours, I did realize that I was the one who didn't communicate this time around - didn't express my concerns at what was going wrong or how I was feeling.

Right now we are still on the counseling path - both in couples counseling, and both in individual counseling as well. We'll see where it goes and whether we are recycling the relationship or actually making progress.

If there's anything that I find to be a revelation from all of this it is to what extent my behavior is contributing to what is wrong with our relationship. Without a doubt, she has her issues - but what I've been doing or not doing to try and manage her reactions are definitely part of what is wrong with the way things have been.

Oh, and just to keep things interesting, we now have an offer on our house, so about a month from now, neither of us will live there any more, and we will truly be living separately (i.e. I won't be living somewhere she used to live together with me, somewhere she still has keys to, somewhere that she hasn't yet moved out all of her belongings).

I don't remember if I started another thread in the "undecided" or "working on it" forum, but I'm going to try and cross-post there too.

[MovingOn23]

Less than 2 weeks since last post where we'd recycled or I'd been charmed ... .

Since I had to find a place to live soon (our house has sold and I have to be out in less than a month) I looked into various living options and ended up renting a small house. Told the separated BPDw (remember, she's been in her own apartment since she moved out at the end of Dec) about it and she went into major dysregulation. All this happened while she was out of town on a business trip, so phone and text. Right back into circular arguments, her playing the victim, me attempting validation (badly and when I shouldn't have), and ending up with both of us upset and feeling horrible about the state of the relationship.

I have to leave this marriage, I have to tell her, and I have to stay the course no matter what. She arrives back in town tomorrow morning.

Upcoming weeks are going to be brutal. There's still a whole house to pack, and still quite a bit of her stuff there that she will need to deal with as well.

[Sluggo]

Moving on 23,

I would stick to your gut and not let that feeling get swayed. 

[MovingOn23]

After late night text "rants" from the BPDw, woke up to this text: [6:46 am] Sorry about everything I sent you - I think I would be better off putting it somewhere that I can reflect on it and not just start throwing my thoughts/feelings at you - so I'm sorry!"

I replied: "I'm still feeling pretty overwhelmed by last night's call and these new texts that I just read (because I did make myself go to bed last night). I'm not feeling up to another call just yet, and not going to try and solve anything via text either. I am not mad at you, I just need quiet time this morning."

Her: "Ok. I love you and you can have all day and even tomorrow if you want it. I will just need to know at some point how I'm getting picked up from the airport."

Me: "I will talk to you before the end of the day, and of course you'll be picked up at the airport."

Later that day had an individual session with my therapist, who let me know that, when dealing with borderline communication (dysregulated communication), that attempts to validate may be somewhat futile. More therapist advice:
     - Don't normalize behavior by supporting it
     - Respond to dysregulated communication by stating actions, 5 words or less. Repeat as needed.
       examples:
           "you're right. things have changed."
           "see you at baggage claim."

The next morning (Friday), talked on the phone with my wife while on the way in to work, kept it strictly to day-to-day topics. She asked whether I wanted to talk more, reminding me that I said we should talk every day, and I said no, I didn't want to. Later she texted that she was on her way to the airport to see if she could catch a standby flight.

Later, texted:
her: Do you wanna go to [city within driving distance from me that a potential standby flight would connect through] and get a hotel tonight?

me: No I'd rather not.

her: Ok that works.
her: That was a clear response btw

Called lawyer, scheduled appointment for next Tuesday morning.

She successfully got an earlier flight home from her work trip - she felt how rough a week it had been, we had had some difficult conversations about me renting a house, where the separation was headed, where my head was at, her feeling left out - a lot of dysregulation (her) and some erratic text rants and circular argument conversations (even though she had ended up saying she shouldn't have texted what she did and that she was sorry - but what had been said was already said).

By the time she was on her way back, I was in a "strictly business" mode with her, taking care of whatever business needed to be taken care of. It was the only way to eliminate the drama.

Earlier in the week, I had decided that all of the indecision about the relationship was really making me feel quite ill inside. That deep down inside, I knew what the answer ultimately needs to be for me (i.e. for me to leave the marriage), and that it felt like the harder I worked to justify the opposite outcome, the more miserable I became.

Her flight arrived late Friday evening. I met her at the airport. I was quiet on the drive home - so quiet that she asked me if there was anything I needed to say to her. I told her that I knew what I needed to do for me, and that what I need is to leave the marriage. She said that she had changed her flight to get home because she could sense that something was wrong and that I was shutting down (again, like 2 weeks ago). She felt like I didn't even give her a chance to get back and for us to re-connect following the difficult week. I repeated my feelings and my decision.

We pulled into the driveway, I got out, she came around and got in the drivers seat and closed the door, then said something about me not even hugging her or something - then yelled something at me, like "thanks for everything" as she sped off.

Then (predictably), ranty texts began, and after receiving a few, I texted that I was going to sleep and turning off my phone until morning. Then she began texting my teenage son (who still lives at home) instead, then she came back to the house (had informed my son, who says he told me, but I don't remember because I was asleep). Entered our/my bedroom (startled me), said she just wanted to lay with me - I said ok. Wanted to make love, I said no. Wanted to kiss, I stopped her. "You are literally pushing me away." Stormed off, drove away again.

Later returned again, said she was going to leave the car at the house because she apparently cannot afford it, she said she was going to wait at the house until daylight when someone could come pick her up. I told her that I am not leaving her without a vehicle - if she cannot afford the one she's been driving, then she can instead use one that is already paid off.

"I thought we were doing better" "we had made plans to see Beauty and the Beast once I got back," getting out, looking at, holding wedding ring, digging out marriage certificate and wedding photo album to take because I apparently don't care about them the way she does. Saying I want her out of my life, that I want nothing to do with her (I told her that is not what I'm saying, but only that I feel I cannot continue in the marriage). Eventually I got her to lay down to try and sleep a little.

Next morning she was still angry and acting erratic. Opened bottle of champagne, drinking from bottle, offering some to me (we aren't big drinkers, this was unusual behavior). Looking at different areas of the house and all the stuff we have to go through, sobbing, saying "why did you have to do this now with everything else going on," overwhelmed, saying she can't handle it. (this is the condensed version). Eventually asked whether I would at least wait until we finish moving out of the house.

I said I would think about it, that I DON'T want to talk about the relationship, I DON'T want discussions convincing me one way or the other, I DON'T want anyone telling me I shouldn't feel the way that I do. I want to be left to be myself and not be analyzed or criticized or railroaded into only one option.

How do I feel? More confident and calm than last time, more firm in my decision (less confusion than before, though admittedly some confusion re-introduced this weekend). I will keep moving the nuts and bolts of dividing our lives forward (transfer cell phone bill away from her, division of "stuff" even if only into separate boxes to move to the house, etc.).

[MovingOn23]

She stayed at the house the rest of the weekend and we began the work of sorting through packing up the house and getting stuff done. The tsunami passed and she was noticeably on her "best behavior" the rest of the weekend, not on my case about the relationship, letting things just be as they are (not nitpicky, critical, not expecting me to read her mind, not sarcastic)... .if only it could be like that all the time.

She talked for a while with an out-of-town best friend who has experience with marriage separation (she and her husband reconciled after a year, and are still married today). Same friend called me afterward, said that my wife doesn't understand what is wrong, that I'm not being specific about my reasons for wanting out of the marriage. I said that I felt my feelings should be an important reason enough - I don't really want to make it only about her, but more about the relationship dynamic and my feeling that it is not going to change - that the ongoing act of trying to rationalize or fix the relationship is making me feel worse, not better. The friend's opinion is that I do need to spell it out (she may have a point) even if the criticism is about specific behaviors of my wife. Also potentially a component of my willingness to not "do the work" required to change things, or an inability for me to forget the past (however justified I feel like I am in not forgetting it). There are probably some things I should say along these lines in a very direct, blunt way that would be more firm. Sometimes I don't do things like that because I feel like I'm just putting objections out there to inevitably invite someone to then work even harder to overcome my objections.

That evening my wife and I left the house together to get dinner, and went to see Beauty and the Beast. Yes, I'm not kidding. Went home afterward and she spent the night again. Spent next day going through things (again, preparing for upcoming move), getting house ready for inspection. Overall getting along great again for now (though that's the cycle, right?). Still 2-3 weeks of packing and moving the house ahead (much of which requires her involvement).

[Sadly]

You are doing so well, so very well, you sound very strong, determined and positive. Hope all continues as calmly as it can.
Love from
Sadly x

[Sluggo]

Movingon23,

I know it is hard what you are doing especially when the cycle is in a good phase.   There came a point for me, and it sounds like you too, no matter how good that good phase is you know that it will turn pretty quickly. 

I always compared it to waves in an ocean.  The time between the waves were the good times, but after a while I knew those waves would be coming and as years in marriage went by the waves started arriving quicker and quicker between the 'calm' times.   

[michel71]

Wow MOVING ON... .wow... .
I was so engrossed in your post. Since I am kinda where you are at, minus the selling of the house (its MINE and I am going nowhere), I can't offer up any advice except to say you sound really brave and strong. I keep searching for my cajones on a daily basis. Sometimes I find them. Sometimes I don't. 

Hats off to you brother.

[MovingOn23]

A little over a week later, and we've had what I would consider 8 good days in a row. Several potential pitfalls along the way, but she has managed them well (and I have too). I must admit it has me second guessing the possibility of reconciliation.

Now there's a whole side story that involves her mom who has mental issues of her own (constantly talks, repeats herself, only able to focus on her own racing thoughts). My wife has almost no tolerance for interactions with her mom at this point and limits calls and conversations with her - not to the point of NC, but a lot. So - my mother in law got evicted from her apartment, and the apartment she is moving into isn't available for 2-3 weeks and she lives on a VERY meager budget (i.e. hotel stay out of the question), so she was going to come stay with me. But my wife is staying at the house while we pack it (as a reminder, we sold the house and will be moving out in a few weeks), she and my wife do not get along, my teenage son who is home (home school online) is also intolerant of my MIL's difficult nature. Anyway, if the MIL stays at the house, it is surely a recipe for disaster. Our solution - the MIL will stay at my wife's apartment for the time being, and my wife will stay at the house with me and continue to help get the house ready for the move.

The next few weeks are something that I don't have a choice in getting through (packing the house, moving into rental house), so let's hope that the next few weeks are as good between me and my wife as the last week was. If things turn out that way, I may just have to move this thread to the undecided board ... .

[Lucky Jim]

There are probably some things I should say along these lines in a very direct, blunt way that would be more firm.

Hey MO23, Agree with that.  A few harsh words at the outset can avoid a lot of trouble down the line, yet we Nons tend to lack the capacity for that kind of firmness.  I sure did!  LJ

[Inneedofhelp]

Do not be mad at yourself. All of us who have loved someone with BPD (married 17 years, 2 children) have the questions, the guilt, the feeling like we have been tricked into giving so much of our life. I have just begun to find the strength to check in with myself and find that I don't want to live this way anymore. I am the one trying to detach and move on-I deserve more. We are kind, generous people who don't need to commit ourselves anymore to someone who can't love us in a healthy way. Stay strong!

[MovingOn23]

Today, moving week begins - that is, I begin moving into the house I'll be renting for the next 12 months, and we begin moving out of the home we've shared for the last 10+ years. While it is true that my BPDw moved out and into her own apartment at the end of last year, we hadn't yet sold our house until now. So it begins - moving my stuff to my new house, moving her remaining stuff that hadn't been moved to her apartment, and sorting out what to do with "our" stuff, because we are still separated and planning on living separately (at least for the foreseeable future).

She was emotional this morning, saying that she doesn't know what her place is, and how she feels like she can't say anything for fear that I'll interpret it as her controlling aspects of my new residence (pretty interesting that she's the one walking on eggshells now ... .).

I told her that this is really just a change in living arrangement for me (it really just solidifies the separation that began over 5 months ago) and gets us out from under the house (which was too big and too expensive anyway). I acknowledged that this week will be difficult as we pack up the house and move out, but I didn't apologize for doing what I'm doing and I didn't try to persuade her that she shouldn't be upset. I told her that what I need in regards to the move is for her to be supportive when I ask for moving help.

As for the status of the separation, she asked a couple of weeks ago for me to at least wait until after the move before making any decisions - and I agreed to that. I'm basically in one-day-at-a-time mode, and feeling that unless things fall apart that it'd be too soon to make decisions re: divorce vs. reconciliation. I'm very interested to see how we fare through this move - after that, she has a business trip, then I have a business trip, both of which will also serve as tests for whether we can manage our relationship in healthier ways than we have in the past. We will also have to deal with some more administrative-type things, like a few remaining bills that we need to divide up (more potential landmines).

We'll see - she got upset this morning, but it didn't turn into what used to be the typical emotional maelstrom of texts and phone calls. I'm grateful for that and hopeful that it's another positive sign.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Movin'On, As hard as it is on you, I sense growth for you in this process.  :)on't rule out the possibility that you might be a lot happier when you get the move behind you.  You may find that life is a lot more peaceful without the drama or expectation of a confrontation.  Play it by ear.  Listen to your gut feelings!  Become who you are.

LuckyJim

[MovingOn23]

A lot has happened since my last post.

I got moved into my rental house.
We got moved out of our marital house that we sold.
Both of these were accomplished under a "one day at a time" premise.
Then, as scheduled, my BPDw went on her week-long business trip.

Purely by coincidence, the day she was scheduled to return from her business trip was our 25th wedding anniversary. This landmark date has been looming ever since the separation began 5+ months ago, and I have debated what to do (or not do) about it. I didn't feel right not doing anything to recognize it (after all, we really have been married that long), but given the circumstances, I didn't think that a true "celebration" was in order either. I openly discussed this conundrum with my wife. Add to the whole mix the fact that she was returning from a business trip, it was a weekday, it was also the day after our youngest son's birthday, and just a few days away from my upcoming business trip, and even under the best of circumstances, the day was anything but ideal for celebrating anything - so I decided we would go out to dinner. Just dinner to mark the occasion and recognize 25 years of marriage.

She was already upset - she posted something vague on facebook about how the day was supposed to be wonderful, but instead was awful - and my mom (who went through a divorce a long time ago) replied that she had been through something similar and that everything would be ok. Apparently my wife read into this reply and thought that I had told my family that I was going to break things off with my wife (I had not discussed any such thing with my family). My wife did not bring up the post or the reply, and I didn't either.

So we went to dinner together, and as the meal progressed, my wife became more and more upset. Eventually she was in full "you brought me here to break up with me" mode, and I tried repeatedly to remind her that we had agreed to approach things one day at a time until after the move and after our business trips were over - but she wasn't hearing it.

She left the restaurant before I could pay the bill, and once I was able to pay, I found her standing in a field next to the parking lot, upset and crying, confronting me with things like "when did you know it was over," etc... What followed was a dysregulation-fest, including us arguing, her turning off my car as I was driving down the road then getting out of the car and walking down the side of the road. Then getting a ride from my son to the house where she broke 2 wedding / couple-related pictures in the driveway. A long session where she had me cornered in my garage, berating me with things like "you never loved me," "you were never in this," "you had this planned all along," etc. to which I responded as little as possible, or with responses like "you can choose to see things however you choose to see them." She would not stop, and physically would not let me by. I did eventually lose my temper, and even said something along the lines of "if I was undecided about the divorce before, I'm definitely sure now! It is OVER!" Eventually she let me by, then left the house, then came back. She made sexual advances toward me (which I declined), and eventually agreed that I could drive her home. Once we were in the car leaving my subdivision to take her to her apartment, she attempted to jump out of my moving car (fortunately I was able to stop in time), then walked away and ended up laying down, in the dark, on the ground next to a large landscaping rock at the entrance to my subdivision. After that I did eventually get her dropped off at her apartment, and after declining invitations to come inside, I went home and turned off my phone.

The next morning, predictably, I turned on my phone to find a slew of text messages - followed by a text message that said "only read this one, I'm sorry for everything, etc... ." and a promise to give me the space I apparently needed and that she hadn't understood until now that I needed that space. My 17 year-old son expressed that he couldn't stand to be around our drama and that he wanted to go away on vacation (especially considering I was going to be out of the country for a week, leaving him at home alone with my wife still in town), so my wife and I agreed for him to go on a trip to visit family out of state for a few weeks, leaving at the same time as me.

My wife sent a small arrangement of flowers to my workplace with a note that said "I am So Sorry for everything! I will do whatever you ask or need for another chance on us!" After I was off work, I met her to talk. She was very subdued - she said she had taken a leave of absence from work and that she was going to go stay with family out of state for a while. I told her that I thought that was a good idea and that she should take care of herself as best she can.

A couple of days later, I left out of the country on my business trip. We basically agreed to no contact during my trip, which she honored until near the very end of the trip when she texted about needing to ask me something. I replied that I'd prefer to wait until I was back to discuss anything. Then she asked permission to send me an email, and I said ok.

[MovingOn23]

The email
[bracketed text] is where I replaced something to not mention specifics or names
I felt that posting as much of the letter as possible was important for providing insight into her thinking:

Please read with an open mind... .

If only I knew where to begin…  There is so much going through my mind, so I will just start writing and see what happens.
 
For starters, I want to let you know that I have acknowledged I have made so many mistakes throughout the years and it is clear that you and [the kids] have suffered tremendously. I also want to acknowledge that I agree that we can’t continue the way we were, and I don’t want to. I would like to build a new and amazing future with the man I have fallen in love with all over again.
 
I attended my first [co-dependency group] meeting last night and had a long talk with [friend who attends this group] and it became apparent that I have been trapped, unknowingly, inside my inner child and became stubborn towards our relationship and withdrew from you and the family, while also creating resentment towards everyone. Realizing all along I just wanted someone to grab me and hold me and take charge.  I was so tired of it all and it should have been a clue when I kept saying “I’m done, I’m over it, I can’t do this anymore”, but neither of us really knew what was going on or how to understand it.
 
Fast forward to November 2016, when I thought I knew what I wanted after I had withdrawn myself so far that I thought I wanted a separation.  It felt like the right thing to do at the time (or I rationalized it). During that conversation and seeing that there was not really a reaction from you then reinforced what I was feeling allowing another shield to be placed for protection. I had not only withdrawn so far at this point myself, I had also pushed you so far away that there seemed to be no hope and we didn’t know how to communicate to figure this out, so we were going with it.  You brought up counseling, but I responded with what I thought was the right answer, which was ‘No, we’ve tried that and it didn’t work’.  Being unsure with everything at this point I decided I was going to just follow your lead because I didn’t know what to do or be honest about my feelings.  I was in denial with myself and being stubborn about the whole thing, whether I thought I was proving a point or whatever it was. So, I agreed to filing for a legal separation and meeting with an attorney you had sought out, all along knowing I was too emotional, crying and asking if any of this would make things final.  This should have been the first indication that this was not really what I wanted, but I let my stubborn tendency be in control rather than stepping back and trying to figure out what was really going on. 
 
So, we are now into December where once again I think I’ve got this figured out and move out making up excuses. I continued to be emotional and question myself daily, but it was not until you left for [out of town trip] in early January to meet up with your family on a trip we were both supposed to be on, that I was slapped in the face and realized what I had done and was completely devastated. This resulted in me basically stalking you your whole trip making it a miserable one.  Finally we talked and agreed we would try counseling.
 
So we started counseling in mid-January and continued weekly until March. It was during this time, when we started communicating and re-connecting that I completely fell back in love with you all over again.  We were communicating, learning what each of us would like or even need out of the relationship, and our passion and intimacy exploded.  It was like we were newlyweds with our lunch ‘dates’ all over again.  We had opened up to expanding our horizons and trying new things and naturally, my mind moved faster than yours and I was seeing where we were approaching the next chapter/stage of our lives, where we going to become ‘empty nesters’ and we could enjoy a new beginning and new adventures…as it would just be the two of us in a matter of a few years, but this was not where you were.
 
I have come to realize I have been a burden and pressure to your unhappiness these past several months pushing you even further away.  I was not able to step back and give you the time you needed to catch up to where I was and during this time I was becoming more fragile with emotion, which was escalating everything. From insecurities, to abandonment to losing control of myself.  All at the same time not thinking rationally or able to just let you be to figure out you and where your thoughts and feelings were.  I was pushing and nagging and allowing my emotions to take over becoming a crystal glass that could break at any moment making it difficult to do anything or communicate unless I felt secure.
 
With the above I would like to apologize for losing control and not allowing you the space you needed to come to a place of peace.  I hope that you can accept this apology and see that I am putting into place what I need to in order to become a better wife and mom.
 
You will ultimately make your final decision, but I would like to ask you to join me in starting a new journey together and walk by my side as I begin working towards figuring my issues out to becoming a better me for everyone.  Marriages are work, but I would like to work on healing us if an option, rather than losing us.  If we are going to make changes, let’s make them together and be a success to our kids and family and keep a unified family showing them there is love worth keeping out there. 
 
I would like to start building new memories with you that could include… [various activities that I like to do], vacations, RV trips cross country, our kids becoming adults in a working world and coming and going, marriages, and even maybe one day grandkids.
 
I hope I have been able to provide you with some truth and insight on what I am facing and hopefully not pushing you further away.
 
I Love You with All My Heart, I got lost…  I am now fully aware that I need help and hoping it’s not too late to become a better me with you.
 
Will you consider a new beginning and memories and allowing the past to stay as the past?
 
A few quotes I found that touched me... .
 
“Our love is a journey, starting at forever, and ending at Never”
 
“It’s okay to not have the answer yet, continue the journey and trust the process”
 
 
All my love,

[ BPDw ]

This letter said so many of the things that I'd been wanting to hear from her for so long. I have to admit that reading it felt like a game-changing moment.

[RedPill]

Hello MovingOn23,

I just read through your story from beginning to end. What a journey. I can't imagine the pain and heartache you must have felt through all that. It sounds like you've learned a lot and taken steps to begin the process of healing and reclaiming yourself even through some terribly turbulent times. And that's not an easy job. That deserves to be recognized.

You must feel so conflicted after receiving that letter. It sounds like exactly everything you've been hoping for. Like an affirmation of all the effort you have put into the marriage, and even of re-building yourself as you detached from her. That must be very hard. I absolutely cannot tell you what to DO about it, but it must be terribly conflicting. A feeling that I see a lot on these boards.

I did have one question and one comment about your story. The question: how has your teenage son been through this process? I have a teenage daughter who I worry about and I wonder how your son has been. The comment: please be careful when she's raging like she was in the garage when she wouldn't let you out. It would be so easy for her to slip, to fall, to hurt herself and then claim you caused the abuse. Be very cautious.

Some quick context about me: 17 year marriage to stbxudBPDw. After years of conflict, accusations, blame, withdrawal, and counseling she served me for divorce two weeks ago. I didn't realize until about 6 months ago that her behavior was so out of bounds to indicate a PD. Now I can see it and I am amazed. We're staying in our small house for now in separate beds. We have a teenage daughter.

My best wishes for you, MovingOn23. Hang in there.
RedPill

[Sluggo]

Movingon23,

That is insightful letter.  My wife could not write or has not been able to write.  I have been waiting for a letter like that also, but don't think my wife is able to allow herself to be that insightful. It is too painful for her.

Have you received letters like this in the past where she is able to name the issues and her part in it.  Or is this something different?

What are you going to do?


 

[DaddyBear77]

MovingOn23, first of all, thank you so much for sharing your story from beginning to end.

First, I'll admit that I haven't read every post here, but I read your first posts and these last few posts.

As someone who has wished and wished for an "I'm so sorry" letter, I can absolutely relate to where you are right now.

But I want to make an honest, "outside the situation" observation about your BPDw's letter:

Did she really make a commitment to change in that letter? She says "[I'm] fully aware that I need help" but does she actually make a commitment to making those changes?


This is the person that, just a week or two ago, threw herself multiple times out of a moving car, putting her life in real danger. She cornered you and kept you trapped while berating you, then later made sexual advances (as though nothing happened?).

She seems to make no mention of that in this letter, so I'd ask you to consider viewing this letter with a great deal of caution and skepticism.

What changes do you REALLY want to see? Is it really that you'd like her to stop "losing control and not allowing you the space you needed to come to a place of peace"? OR is it to get the serious, very difficult-to-sustain help that a pwBPD needs to get healthy(er) and really make things "work" inside a relationship?

I sincerely hope that this is an opening for you to discuss the issues that are really important to you, and create a real plan to reconcile. I can really see how much you love and care about this person. I really hope for the best for you both.

[BeagleGirl]

MovingOn23,
    I too would like to hear what your thoughts after having some time to ponder the letter.  I feel like there are many things in the letter that must draw your heart back to the dreams you have held onto for so long of a marriage that not only lasts 1/4 century (a huge achievement), but heals to the point where you can feel like it was worth all the pain and possibly even find some purpose for the pain that you have endured for so long.
    I am in a similar situation, though I know there are enough differences that I can't really say what I think you should do.  I would, however like to share some of what I'm thinking and would love to hear more of your perspective.
    This August will be my 22nd wedding anniversary.  The 21st went by with barely any recognition because things were in such a state of brokenness that it almost felt like rubbing salt in the wound to "celebrate".  I was in the middle of coming to understand that my husband is and has been emotionally abusive throughout our marriage and was being confronted by his unwillingess (inability?) to recognize and change those abusive behaviors.  I had been asking for a separation since April of 2016, but was still stuck in the cycle of abuse because I kept hoping that his words of remorse were the sign of change to come.  I now realize that I would spend hours "teaching" him what to say as I revealed the deep wounds he had inflicted right after the abuse and tried to convince him that what he had done was wrong.  He would wait a day or two until I was exhausted and desperate for some hope to cling to and then parrot them back to me.  At first that would lead to a tearful reconciliation, sex, a day or two of him smothering me with attention, then finding a way/reason to pull away emotionally, then tension building, then abusive act, then I'd spend hours explaining the hurt and trying to convince him that what he did was wrong... .
    I moved out at the end of January.  Sitting at the table with our two sons and telling them that I was leaving the home, probably for 6 months, was the hardest thing I have ever done.  I look back now and know it was God who gave me the strength to leave, because I was enduring incredible anxiety throughout the day and nightmares at night and, while I never fantasized about how to commit suicide, I felt like death was the only escape from the pain of my marriage.
   I started learning in the months before I left how to "poke holes" in the remorseful words of my husband.  I would ask questions that I hadn't "provided the answer to" about what he had done that was hurtful and why he did it, and whatever else came to mind.  Inevitably, I would start to see that he didn't understand what was wrong with his behavior, or he had justified it in his mind.  My mantra became "if you don't understand/believe that a behavior was wrong, there is no reason for you to stop that behavior". 
    Fast forward to this past Sunday, three months into our separation.  He is still focused on saying the right words to get me to come home, but when met with resistance and a request to disengage from the conversation, he traps me in a room.  When I firmly tell him to get out of my way and he realizes that he has just committed an act that I have clearly identified as abusive, he steps out of the way but then chases me down the hall begging me to come back and talk to him some more.
    The reason I tell you all this is because I feel like my husband is regularly communicating words similar to what your wife shared in the letter to you.  He is sorry for certain actions that I have indicated are unacceptable.  He is willing to do whatever I ask him to do.  He sees a beautiful future where he is the kind of husband I have been asking, begging, and now demanding he be.  IF I will return to our marriage while he works through these things. IF I don't move forward with legal separation.  MY unwillingness to return will do irreparable harm to our marriage and our children. 
    For now, I am holding firm on not working on our marriage until he has not only shown a willingness to do what is asked of him (DBT and consistently demonstrating "adult" responsibility with money, parenting, and upkeep of our house, etc), but starts to figure out how to be a healthy husband without having to be given step by step directions and lists of "rules" to follow. 
    I guess I feel like the damage is already done where it comes to our kids having to go through this separation.  Lengthening the term of that separation is probably less traumatic than coming back and (most likely) having to leave again if/when hwBPD falls back into patterns and refuses to continue the healing process.  I also have read and been advised that focus on improving a marriage when one member of that marriage is extremely unhealthy will not only be an exercise in futility, but will serve as a distraction/diversion from the unhealthy spouse working through their issues.
    I'm a little sad that I read a beautiful letter from your wife and distrust it based on my distrust of what my hwBPD says.  She probably is fully sincere about her desire to seek healing for herself and reconciliation with you.  I believe my husband is sincere, up until the point where he is asked to make a sacrifice he doesn't feel is necessary to maintain the relationship at a level that meets his basic needs.
    Would you consider asking your wife to seek healing regardless of your marital status while you seek healing for yourself.  You could potentially put a time frame around the "individual work" with the expectation that you will re-evaluate your readiness to start working on the marriage at the end of that period.  That's generally the approach I'm taking with my husband.  So far he's been very resistant to focusing on himself without some sort of "guarantee" that I will come back to the marriage and I've been very resistant to making that commitment without seeing significant change, at least in his attitude about why he's putting in the hard work (to be healthy vs to "win me back".
BeagleGirl

[ArleighBurke]

I've just read this post from start to finish.

You decided a long time ago to end the marraige. Yet you have been sleeping with her, seeing her, and been on the fence for months.

And she has been "promising you the world" - everything will be different, I can get better... .Do you believe it? When I threatened to leave my wife she said the same. Of COURSE that's what she'd say.

But what EVIDENCE do you have that she can change? I would like to think that signing divorce papers was enough of a motivator for her to get help - but she didn't. Living apart - big red flag - but she still didn't do anything. Selling the family home - NOW she says she'll change?

I LOVE my wife. But I have moved out and we are separated. Despite my love for her, she cannot change, and I cannot live with her drama. It is the most painful decision. Like having to put down your family dog because it has a painful inoperable injury. Love does not conquer all.

In a post a while back YOU said:

my wife doesn't understand what is wrong, ... .I'm not being specific about my reasons for wanting out of the marriage. ... .I don't really want to make it only about her, but more about the relationship dynamic and my feeling that it is not going to change - that the ongoing act of trying to rationalize or fix the relationship is making me feel worse, not better.

Making the final decision to leave is so hard. I understand the eternal hope you have that things may get better. But reality is they probably won't. You may be living apart but you are NOT separated. GO NO CONTACT. Spend 2-3 months with no contact, then see her again to check where things are at. Has she had any therapy? Has she done any self-improvement?

In reading HER letter:

I would like to ask you to join me in starting a new journey together and walk by my side as I begin working towards figuring my issues out to becoming a better me for everyone.  ... .  If we are going to make changes, let’s make them together... .

Call me cynical, but she identifies SHE needs to figure out her issues, but then straight away ropes YOU into having go help her.

Tell her you need space - real space - and that you have confidence in her to start her journey - and that you will come back to her in 3 months to see where she's at. I almost guarentee in 3 months time she'll have a stack of excuses on why she hasn't done anything.

(Sorry to be down and cynical, but just like me, you are clinging to lost hope and empty promises).

[MovingOn23]

Did she really make a commitment to change in that letter?

Not in the letter, but we are negotiating on the selection of a counselor that we feel would be effective in helping address our individual (and eventually collective) needs.

I am very skeptical, and I've told her so, pointing out the ongoing pattern that seems to inevitably end up right back in another bad situation eventually.

She is very embarrassed by her bad behavior after the anniversary dinner. Though she doesn't specifically mention it in the letter, she has verbally referenced it with me.

What changes do you REALLY want to see? Is it really that you'd like her to stop "losing control and not allowing you the space you needed to come to a place of peace"? OR is it to get the serious, very difficult-to-sustain help that a pwBPD needs to get healthy(er) and really make things "work" inside a relationship?

The latter - but again, I'm skeptical about her ability to sustain that.

I sincerely hope that this is an opening for you to discuss the issues that are really important to you, and create a real plan to reconcile. I can really see how much you love and care about this person. I really hope for the best for you both.

Thank you - your feedback is very much appreciated.

[MovingOn23]

I did have one question and one comment about your story. The question: how has your teenage son been through this process? I have a teenage daughter who I worry about and I wonder how your son has been. The comment: please be careful when she's raging like she was in the garage when she wouldn't let you out. It would be so easy for her to slip, to fall, to hurt herself and then claim you caused the abuse. Be very cautious.

We have 2 sons - one attends college out of town (so hasn't been around for these recent episodes) and the other is at home. Our son at home has made it clear that he thinks the solution is divorce. His biggest complaint lately is that he hates the back-and-forth, the recycling, the indecision.

Thank you for your reply - I also wish you and your family the best in your own journey.

[MovingOn23]

Movingon23,

That is insightful letter.  My wife could not write or has not been able to write.  I have been waiting for a letter like that also, but don't think my wife is able to allow herself to be that insightful. It is too painful for her.

Have you received letters like this in the past where she is able to name the issues and her part in it.  Or is this something different?

This is different. I haven't heard these things from her before, taking responsibility for her actions and apologies were never things she conveyed in the past.

What are you going to do?

I don't know. The letter made me feel more in favor of reconciliation than anything has thus far, but I'm still sorting through my feelings and what a framework for making sure the necessary work happens would look like.

Thank you for your reply, I really appreciate it.


 

[MovingOn23]

    Would you consider asking your wife to seek healing regardless of your marital status while you seek healing for yourself.  You could potentially put a time frame around the "individual work" with the expectation that you will re-evaluate your readiness to start working on the marriage at the end of that period.  That's generally the approach I'm taking with my husband.  So far he's been very resistant to focusing on himself without some sort of "guarantee" that I will come back to the marriage and I've been very resistant to making that commitment without seeing significant change, at least in his attitude about why he's putting in the hard work (to be healthy vs to "win me back".
BeagleGirl

I think this is an idea worthy of exploring further. I have an appointment with my counselor tomorrow and we have a lot to talk about, as they do not know about the anniversary dinner or anything thereafter yet.

[MovingOn23]

I've just read this post from start to finish.

You decided a long time ago to end the marraige. Yet you have been sleeping with her, seeing her, and been on the fence for months.

And she has been "promising you the world" - everything will be different, I can get better... .Do you believe it? When I threatened to leave my wife she said the same. Of COURSE that's what she'd say.

But what EVIDENCE do you have that she can change? I would like to think that signing divorce papers was enough of a motivator for her to get help - but she didn't. Living apart - big red flag - but she still didn't do anything. Selling the family home - NOW she says she'll change?

I LOVE my wife. But I have moved out and we are separated. Despite my love for her, she cannot change, and I cannot live with her drama. It is the most painful decision. Like having to put down your family dog because it has a painful inoperable injury. Love does not conquer all.

In a post a while back YOU said:
Making the final decision to leave is so hard. I understand the eternal hope you have that things may get better. But reality is they probably won't. You may be living apart but you are NOT separated. GO NO CONTACT. Spend 2-3 months with no contact, then see her again to check where things are at. Has she had any therapy? Has she done any self-improvement?

In reading HER letter:
Call me cynical, but she identifies SHE needs to figure out her issues, but then straight away ropes YOU into having go help her.

Tell her you need space - real space - and that you have confidence in her to start her journey - and that you will come back to her in 3 months to see where she's at. I almost guarentee in 3 months time she'll have a stack of excuses on why she hasn't done anything.

(Sorry to be down and cynical, but just like me, you are clinging to lost hope and empty promises).

All excellent points that I will take to heart. Thank you.

[babyoctopus]

Wow-wow wow... .movingon23,

I remember reading this post the first time, we are in very similar situations as I am separated from my uBPDstbxh since Nov 2016 also. 23 yr marriage. This time its for sure, though. We have separated for a week here and there and I remember wishing so hard he would say the words, sincerely, that your wife writes.

Flash forward to now, and I don't want to hear it. I'm truly done. Sometimes I read on breakup board: "She left without a word" "He was so cold when he said goodbye" "She has no feelings!" "I haven't heard from him in 3 weeks"   Well, I'm pretty positive my pwBPD is gonna say those things about me! Sure, after 23 years of every type of emotional, verbal abuse, gaslighting to the point I questioned if I was the pwBPD, recycling, the rages, glaring, mocking, blocked doorways, the threats (I'll keep the kids because you're sick and I can prove it), the put-downs (no one will hire you, how will you support yourself) etc etc... ., yes I am DONE! I will act "unemotional" in the face of his pleading and manipulation, if he even does and I don't want him to, because I am SPENT. I don't want to hear it - I have heard it all before.   

We endured 7 years of MC and seriously, all it did was arm him with professional terminology to attack me, blame me even more, and make excuses for his behavior. The hundreds, thousands of times during this 23 year marriage I cried myself to sleep at night, wondered how I was ever going to be free, ached for him and his pain but no way to help him, the disappointments, all of it. Now done. 

I hope it all works out for you, I really do. But tread carefully.  You've come oh so far and we all know what it takes to accomplish what you have. Don't throw it away. Remember how it felt everytime you got duped before. Make 1000% sure its for real this time if you do take her back. Make her prove it if you can.

Namaste.

[MovingOn23]

A few weeks later now, and if I'm honest with myself, we've recycled again. I still haven't given her keys to the house, and she's still being VERY respectful of my space, but we are spending a lot of time together. She is getting back into individual therapy, and has been consistently attending her ACA support group. She is still talking about HER issues (not "our" issues which she used to strongly emphasize) and seems almost excited that she has begun to figure out how her past has been triggering her behaviors.

Yes, I am hopeful. I want to believe.
I also have a small voice inside that is afraid that I'm just Charlie Brown, thinking I'm finally going to get to kick that football, and hoping that Lucy isn't going to pull it away at the last second yet again.

At my last appointment with my counselor, they strongly emphasized just how long and difficult the road to recovery would be for my wife and, based on their past experience with her, they do not feel optimistic about the outcome.

Kinda sucks when being realistic about a situation means ignoring what's real right now.

[ArleighBurke]

If things are working, then enjoy the now!

But be mindful to not expect the same in the future. Maybe things will work out, maybe they won't. This is not up to you. Accept you have done all you can - and keep an open mind and heart.

Good luck.

[MovingOn23]

Latest update - my BPDw is starting with a new counselor, someone who comes recommended by my counselor, who understands the BPD issues my wife is dealing with. This counselor is also able to do EMDR which my counselor thinks may help - IF my wife is willing to face the issues she hasn't gone far enough to face in the past. But she still seems to be going in the direction of taking personal responsibility and working on her own personal issues.

I'm hopeful, but waiting ... .

[MovingOn23]

2 months since my last update - my wife is still regularly attending counseling (as am I) and starting to dig into childhood issues. My son mentioned (without any questions or prompting from me) that "mom is different" - that she is "way better" and how she isn't blowing up like she used to.

We even went on a 1-week trip that involved camping every night - which isn't really something we've done before. Camping is very much my thing but she was willing to give it a go, and it went great.

Her apartment lease is up at the end of the month, and I had already told her that I see no reason why she would need to continue living separately - but she later calmly said that maybe she should go ahead and keep an apartment because she doesn't want to jinx our progress or rush us or take anything for granted. That what we're working on isn't a "done deal" yet - I was pleasantly surprised and impressed to hear that come from her.

So forward progress continues. I continue working on being direct and communicating my needs (and not doing things based on what I think she would want me to do). I also continue making sure that I'm actively demonstrating my love for her, as well as communicating that I recognize and appreciate what she's doing for herself and how it's improving our relationship.

Still a work in progress, and I won't pretend that there won't be challenges along the way, but life on the other side of her breakthrough is still pretty darn good.

[Red5]

MovingOn23,

Wow, I just read through your entire posts… you have been through a lot, I was married for 21 years to my child bride, my first marriage, we had three children together, and the oldest is special needs, she too had a bad childhood, in a word, horrific, she told me what happened to her after about four years of us getting married, before our second son was born, and I was too young to understand, or else process, so as the years went on, so downhill the marriage went, we tried so hard, started over so many times, even got remarried at one point, to make a very long story short, I, well we both fought hard to stay together, and in the end we lost… you see, what she went through as a child haunted her, she acted out, and made her do many things that was not conducive to any healthy marriage, so much pain, it almost killed me to lose her over and over, and it took me years to finally come to grips, and even try to understand what and why all this was happening, Why our marriage was falling apart, but you see I loved her so very much, we had history, years and years together and three beautiful children, and I was NOT going to give up… And in the end, she left ALL of us, and moved on to be with her inner tormentors full time, I became a divorced and single full time father with full custody, Fast forward to 2007, so I’d been divorced a whole year, and I met someone new, she seemed awesome, perfect, and after all I was an old pro, might as well been a phycologist, boy was I wrong, my new lady and I dated for four point five years, and then we married, she had also been married before, then as time passed, so did the never ending fights, which grew worse and worse, why was this happening, so here I am, also 51, and I am tired, I ain’t got no fight left in me, this one is another mission for God?… I am absolutely sure she is BPD, maybe some HPD to, it was too good to be true, and I fell for it, the same thing to me,  I read your whole post, and I hope the best for you, and your wife, just be careful, I knew its very hard to let go, in the end my first wife let me no choice as she finally left on her own accord, this current wife, she is full of anger now, all was hidden way until after a few years of marriage passed, and why, I think I know, what will I find out about her childhood, as far as I know, it’s all fake made-up story, a phony… secrets within secrets this family, I feel like I was tricked sometimes, I have no motivation to continue beyond basic caregiver, I am so tired of the fights, the “dysregulation”, the endless character assassinations, sometimes, I think a scared teenage girl is standing there yelling at me, no I am sure it is !,

Again, good luck to you, I hope for you the best, whatever the outcome, for both you and your wife, v/r Tim

[JSbrooklyn247]

Hey there. I was just curious, are you guys still together and how are you these days? I'm still recovering from a tramautic 7 year on and off again relationship with my uBPD that ended 6 months ago and I'm just curious. Hope you're doing well.  Thanks!