Accused on an almost daily basis of affairs, lies and infidelity

[La Carotte]

I'm a bit embarrassed to be posting this as I posted something similar in November and then went back... .again and again...

But today, after nearly three years of being accused on an almost daily basis of affairs, lies and infidelity of thought and deed, not one single bit of which is true, after being ditched on a weekly basis and accepting it was all part of the push pull and so just putting up with it, and letting go whatever had happened, even the stealing of my diary, the hacking of my email, the smashing of my things, the smearing of my name, the abusive language, the name calling, the stalking, the threats of police... .after all of that, I got proof, finally, of what I've suspected for a long time. She's been having an emotional affair with a woman who she once said she was going to leave me for, then hid from because said woman was "a sexual predator", and who she's been "friends" with again for the past 10 months.

Of course, there is a fine line between friendship and emotional infidelity, and I don't believe that they've had sex. But she has known all along that the "friendship" has caused me problems, because she has prioritised her over me many times, and because of their past, and at the same time I'm not even allowed to do  my shopping in a supermarket where someone I had a two week fling with before I met her works.

She has been saying things to this woman about me that are really not appropriate to tell anyone, she has been flirting with this woman and she has met her behind my back and not been honest about their relationship. Not on.

And actually, the worse thing for me is that when I challenged her, she said, yes, shes her best friend, she is worth ten of me, she doesn't want anything to do with me because she is sick of my lies and nastiness. She then locked me out of her house so I had to sit in the snow in my pyjamas while she got ready to drive me home and said she'd only drive me if I sat in silence. As she lives in the middle of nowhere and I had no money and was in my nightclothes, I had to agree.

This is the short version of what happened. And the really awful thing? When I told my teenage daughter, she said, "I don't know why you think this is the worst thing she's done, this is nowhere near the worst thing." I try and keep most things from my daughter, but I have told her this and promised not to go back. I have to stick to this.

So. This now has to be the end, no matter how utterly devastating and hard it is for me. There really can be no going back from this. One of the things that kept me going back was that I truly believed that she loved me like no other, and her paranoid jealousies (which are the cause of 99.99% of our "fights" were as a result of her being so insecure because of the depth of feelings she has for me. But actually, she clearly has a depth of feeling for this other woman too, and I know myself well enough to know I can't be ok with that. I don't want to be ok with that.

Despite this, because I'm so programmed to try and make things right, and reframe everything she's done to make it ok for us to go on, I know that almost certainly my brain will concoct reasons to contact her and try and make it ok. Even immediately after she dropped me at my house, I sent her a couple of conciliatory messages, for which I hate myself a little bit.

So one thing that I have done is send a text to important people in my life telling them, for the first time, of what's been going on so that I can make myself accountable - I'll be embarrassed to say to them that I've gone back after telling them what she's done. Even though I've spent the day hoping she'll turn up and apologise and make it all fine again.

And I'm here asking you all for support, because I don't actually believe I can do this, but I know I must.

Thank you for reading.

FIT

[once removed]

hey La Carotte  

im sorry to hear that things have worked out this way. its a very difficult decision that youre making  .

I'm a bit embarrassed to be posting this as I posted something similar in November and then went back... .again and again...

i encourage you not to beat yourself up on this. youre in good company; 62% of relationships recycle irrespective of BPD.

I'll be embarrassed to say to them that I've gone back after telling them what she's done.

Despite this, because I'm so programmed to try and make things right, and reframe everything she's done to make it ok for us to go on, I know that almost certainly my brain will concoct reasons to contact her and try and make it ok. Even immediately after she dropped me at my house, I sent her a couple of conciliatory messages, for which I hate myself a little bit.

... .

Even though I've spent the day hoping she'll turn up and apologise and make it all fine again.

i suggest exploring, perhaps on paper, the reasons you want out of this relationship, as a counterbalance to these thoughts. she may well turn up and apologize. you may choose to accept it or not, but accepting a persons apology does not mean excusing it, accepting, or tolerating abuse. shaming yourself out of contacting her or getting back with her is a shaky foundation. its a little like trying to lose weight by telling your friends to call you fat every time you want to eat. get to the root of these thoughts, their triggers, what they mean to you, and how you might counter balance them. if you were to return to the relationship at this point (as you fear you might) you might feel even more embarrassed, isolated, ashamed, and petrified with indecision.

So. This now has to be the end, no matter how utterly devastating and hard it is for me. There really can be no going back from this. One of the things that kept me going back was that I truly believed that she loved me like no other, and her paranoid jealousies (which are the cause of 99.99% of our "fights" were as a result of her being so insecure because of the depth of feelings she has for me.

Despite this, because I'm so programmed to try and make things right,

where might you have learned this programming, La Carotte? do you believe you deserve better? what might this relationship be providing that is missing?

ps. i dont mean to discourage you from seeking the support of your friends and family. that was a great step that im certain took courage.

[La Carotte]

Thanks for your reply, once removed. Please can you explain a little more what you mean by:

get to the root of these thoughts, their triggers, what they mean to you, and how you might counter balance them.

I presume by 'the root' you mean why I have them, FOO stuff, etc? I have often thought about that, and believe that my FOO was ok, and I'm never sure how, even if it wasn't, being able to link the thoughts of now with things that happened in the past is helpful in changing the pain of now?

Please could you also clarify what you mean by the next three points in your sentence?

Thank you, I appreciate your time

FIT

[Penelope35]

Hi FIT. You shouldn't be embarrased about posting anything on this board. You know we have all been there and recycled and broke our boundaries and promises to our selves many many times... .

Reading your post reminded me of how I was feeling about a couple of months ago. I can understand your devastation and despair. I know how hard it is to be dealing with these emotions. I also know it's extremely hard to go to no contact when in this kind of emotional state. What I would tell you is to please start processing that this relationship needs to be over. It doesn't make you happy. It is nothing like what you used to think love is. When you start accepting that YOU need to end it because it's bad for you (and your teen), then the way you react will start to change. You will probably talk again, maybe she will try to make up when she needs you back and I know that this possibility probably gives you some comfort as you are reading it. BUT please try and stay focused at what history has showed you about the kind of relationship you can have with this person. If you know you are not strong enough to stick to no contact at this point, the "do not resuscitate" approach may be more appropriate. If you have any contact with her just please try to keep in mind that this relationship needs to be over. Whatever you say, whatever happens just please try to keep in mind that your goal or hope should not be to fix it. Your goal should be to slowly accept that it needs to be over. I promise you that if you manage to overcome this first phase and the unbearable pain it includes without recycling it will slowly start getting easier.

Hung in there. You are not alone

[once removed]

I presume by 'the root' you mean why I have them, FOO stuff, etc?

not necessarily. i dont have much in the way of complex FOO stuff and it didnt really connect with my relationship. there were, in my case, other mental and emotional hooks.

Please can you explain a little more what you mean by:

get to the root of these thoughts, their triggers, what they mean to you, and how you might counter balance them.

you know yourself better than anyone here. in essence, i can only speculate about your triggers, and prod a little bit in terms of possibilities and things to consider. for example, when i ask "do you believe you deserve better", some faced with your situation may not. you may or may not. you also may consciously feel you do, but do you live and act as if you believe it?

if you do, despite "an almost daily basis of affairs, lies and infidelity of thought and deed, not one single bit of which is true, after being ditched on a weekly basis and accepting it was all part of the push pull and so just putting up with it, and letting go whatever had happened, even the stealing of my diary, the hacking of my email, the smashing of my things, the smearing of my name, the abusive language, the name calling, the stalking, the threats of police... ." then something is off. these relationships tend to have their emotional and mental hooks, unique to each of us. they feed something in us. when we find it, theres a real freedom in the discovery.

"One of the things that kept me going back was that I truly believed that she loved me like no other, and her paranoid jealousies (which are the cause of 99.99% of our "fights" were as a result of her being so insecure because of the depth of feelings she has for me" is a very good example. i know in my case, my exes insecurity and clinginess, nuts as it drove me, made me feel safe and secure, something id never felt in a previous romantic relationship. can you relate?

id particularly focus on your mention of being programmed. programming is learned behavior. im asking where you might have learned it, or to elaborate on what you mean by it. its an impossible responsibility for a person to make everything right.

[La Carotte]

Penelope35, thank you.

She just called me and I ignored it. Same old same old. I'm now in the usual space of thinking/dreading/hoping she'll turn up. She often does.

BUt. Even if she does, even if she apologises for this particular thing, it won't change three years of abuse. And as once removed said,

she may well turn up and apologize. you may choose to accept it or not, but accepting a persons apology does not mean excusing it, accepting, or tolerating abuse.

and as you say

try and stay focused at what history has showed you about the kind of relationship you can have with this person.

History shows that  she is unable to sustain any good intentions about us/me for more than a few days. She does have good intentions, I'm sure of that. and she does love me, I'm sure of that. But the daily reality of the past two years has been one of more misery and angst and upset and fury and frustration and anger and despair than anything else, 99% because of her inability to sustain it and then my reactions, which I know have often not helped anything. That is the truth. And so why on earth would it be anything other than my own brand of crazy to imagine that even if she turned up with a huge bouquet, tickets for a cruise and a million apologies that the changes needed by either of us to alter that reality in the future would have been made since this morning?

Plus, she's still spent ten months going behind my back with a woman in a way that she knows completely is hurtful to me. No apology is going to change that fact.

Sorry, that sounded a bit ranty. I guess I'm hurt and angry. This DOES need to end, for me and my daughter, who told me today that she has lost respect for me.

[La Carotte]

Thanks once removed. Everything you say makes sense. My head is far too fuzzy after my day today to even begin to think about these things, but I absolutely want to do work on myself, partially so that I don't do this again (I had another abusive relationship 15 years ago, much of which I've blocked, but I'm pretty sure it was similar) and partially so that I don't end up thinking it's been a waste of three years of my life. One of the things that sustains me on here is reading how people have turned their experiences into growth and now feel as though their lives are better as a result. I want to be able to say that. I can't quite imagine it just now, but at one time I couldn't imagine being able to drive and I can now.

Thank you

[once removed]

My head is far too fuzzy after my day today to even begin to think about these things

i completely understand that sentiment, finallyitstime . take your time and be gentle with yourself.

Sorry, that sounded a bit ranty. I guess I'm hurt and angry. This DOES need to end, for me and my daughter, who told me today that she has lost respect for me.

thats pretty rough to hear from anyone  . abuse in relationships tends to be insidious. no one sets out to be abused and people rarely set out to abuse (in romantic relationships). its a dynamic that develops over time and its very difficult to understand unless youve been there. your daughter probably meant her best when she said that. just know that youre not alone in this. we do understand 

[La Carotte]

Thank you, that means a lot to me. 

[La Carotte]

Hello again

Just wanted to say that I'm at the end of NC day 2 and am feeling ok. In fact I had a moment today, for only a few seconds, but a moment anyway, where I thought, "I'm free, how exciting!" Of course the next moment I was in tears and panicking but that moment happened.

And even though I've just seen the most beautiful sunset and all i could do was feel sad and wonder whether she was watching it too, I knew I wasn't going to make contact.

I've been thinking about what once removed said:

These relationships tend to have their emotional and mental hooks, unique to each of us. they feed something in us. when we find it, theres a real freedom in the discovery.

"One of the things that kept me going back was that I truly believed that she loved me like no other, and her paranoid jealousies (which are the cause of 99.99% of our "fights" were as a result of her being so insecure because of the depth of feelings she has for me" is a very good example. i know in my case, my exes insecurity and clinginess, nuts as it drove me, made me feel safe and secure, something id never felt in a previous romantic relationship. can you relate?

I absolutely totally relate to this. But what I can't get past is how knowing that helps me? All it does is make me think that yes, I felt like that and it may not have been healthy, but it was lovely to feel like that, and I'd never felt like it in 35 years of adult relationships so I'm pretty sure I won't again, and I know I should be able to provide myself with that safe and secure and loved feeling but how on earth does one do that? And besides, I want to feel that someone loves me that way, surely that isn't wrong? And then I feel alone and panicky and desperate to make it ok. Which I do know i can't do, if I cojld, I would have by now. I do at least get that bit.

Any advice / further prompts/ explanations /experiences would be appreciated, I really want to give myself the best chance of getting away and growth.

Thank you.

[once removed]

I absolutely totally relate to this. But what I can't get past is how knowing that helps me?

it helps you less in an immediate sense, and more in terms of the bigger picture: detaching, seeing the relationship with a healthy and balanced perspective, and as we often say, slowly, as we are ready, turning the focus to ourselves, especially if we want to have healthy relationships going forward.

but it was lovely to feel like that, and I'd never felt like it in 35 years of adult relationships so I'm pretty sure I won't again, and I know I should be able to provide myself with that safe and secure and loved feeling but how on earth does one do that?

in a word, practice. do you love yourself? do you practice self love? thats the short answer. the longer answer tends to be unique to each of us and our issues. its also important to keep in mind that this is all very fresh and raw for you. give yourself time to grieve first. the answers, the aha moments, the self work, it all lends itself better as we work through the grief.

And besides, I want to feel that someone loves me that way, surely that isn't wrong?

we often come here with some misguided ideas about healthy relationships and love, or even more insidiously, what we are attracted to, what feels familiar, what makes us come alive. i can tell you that no, i do not want to be loved the way my ex did, but i certainly did at the time. if youd asked me at the time why i loved my ex, my answer, essentially would have boiled down to "because she loves me". you want someone to love you for you. being possessive of you is not loving you for you, its based on fear and insecurity. not to mention, as possessive and frankly obsessive as my ex was, she cheated multiple times, and quickly entered a new relationship. lets just say that possessiveness makes for instability. i can also tell you that with work, the kind of person, and the kind of dynamic i was attracted to has changed, and i think most of us have to work at that to some extent.

with regard to these feelings of needing to make everything okay, you might consider the following book. ive not read it, but people that identify with that need have gotten an awful lot out of it: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OCXHRC/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1

i am also, very soon, going to be doing a series of threads based on the following article we have here. you might watch for those. https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a117.htm

i should also ask, have you considered seeing a therapist? highly and frequently recommended around here.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey FIT, Sorry to hear all that you are going through.  You could liken it to withdrawal from an addiction.  Many here recycle, me included, to escape the pain of withdrawal.  Yet one has to go through the "ring of fire" in order to get to the other side.  It's a rough road, but leads to greater happiness, which in my view is what its all about.  Hang in there.

LuckyJim

[Beacher]

So sorry you are going through this. There's nothing worse, as I have recently experienced, than having an affair ( in whatever form) thrown in on top of trying to deal with BPD behavior.

I am in recovery and believe strongly in ' keeping it green'. The next time you think there is a glimmer of a chance that you can be happy with her, remember sitting in the snow in your pjs. Most people would not even do that to their dog.

Good luck and stay on board

[La Carotte]

Thanks guys. I'm feeling utterly miserable this morning. But I know that there is no chance of this being okay. Beacher, you're right, thinking  of me sitting in the snow is the thing that keeps me going.

Ex has a chronic disease and two nights ago contacted me to say she was really ill, would I skype? So I did, becasue I was worried about her, if course, and after ten minutes of chat about nothing in particular, all fine (like nothing had happened) she suddenly started going on about my work clothes I was wearing (completely conservative, she's seen them a hundred times) and said basically I looked like a slag. At which point I put the phone down and sent her a text saying please contact another friend nect time she's sick as I won't be on the receiving end of her offensive comments again. Then I blocked her. Lesson learned.

I kept her blocked for 24 hours, which is my personal record but it drives me mad wondering if she's getting in touch. I think  I'm much better just deleting texts as they come in without reading first. That's key. I had 6 emails from her the evening of the Skype and didnt read them.

Hard stuff. I hate it. I just wish it didn't have to be like this. But it does.

Once removed- thank you, you've given me a lot to think about. I'm speaking to a T this afternoon. I saw her months ago so she knows the situation. Am looking forward to it

[zeus123]

FiallyItsTime, it was great what you did and put the phone down and blocked her. i wish you could block her for 24 years instead of 24 hours. and make sure you delete her emails and do not read them. there is nothing good that comes out from contacting a BPD after the relationship ends, it only prolongs your pain and allow someone who completely impaired to manipulate you. stay strict NC forever, you can't help her nor you can repair archaic wounds left over from childhood abandonment by her mother. every time you contact her or answer her calls/massages you are giving away your power, and besides she won't think highly of you. the more you show that you want to help her and that you care/love her the more she hates you for it. stay away. stay NC!

[La Carotte]

Thanks zeus123.

I've realised that something that is different this time is that I can't think of one single thing that I could say to make this okay. Normally by this time in the cycle im coming up with all kinds of things that This Time will be the one thing I say that Makes Her Realise... .   I'm still currently fighting the urge to contact her, but won't, because I know that there's nothing I can do to make this okay.

And, equally important, I know that even if she contacts me or turns up, whatever she says, she will not be able to sustain any good intentions. Even if she really really wants to, which I know she does sometimes. She isn't able to. And that's very sad but the reality.

When I think of myself sitting in the snow in my pyjamas, and then being told I'm not allowed to speak, I cringe. Im going to revisit this picture and the associated feelings as often as I need and I know this will help me stay away.

I am so grateful for this site and you all.

[purekalm]

La Carotte,

 You are doing so well! To be able to block her after such a short time, and keep it going should show yourself that you CAN do this!      I know it's extremely hard and painful, but you really do deserve better. You deserve someone who will love you for you and not what they or can not get out of you. A healthy love that gives you space to be who you are and has trust. Don't just give yourself a reminder of how bad things are, but also try to remind yourself that you have value and therefore should be treated fairly.

I was pointed to the lessons on the side here so I'd ask you to do the same. I was angry when I first got here and I didn't want to read some more crap about how I could help myself, I just wanted it all to stop and have someone listen. But, understanding the cycles of grief is important, because it truly is a grieving process, a process of letting go and finding yourself again. It is also at your own pace, give yourself time. I didn't at first and was more frustrated.

After letting go for good, I recycled one last time with my husband because he actually started doing the things he said he would. He always said good things, but I never believed him because his actions proved otherwise. And, because I had already let go and dealt with all the excruciating pain, when he proved he only wanted me because I was doing better without him, it didn't hurt as bad and I finally stopped trying to make excuses for why I could be treated this way. It wasn't my fault. Yes, I have my faults, but I deserved at least, mutual respect, and I wasn't afforded it. Now, even though I still have to live with him for financial reasons I love him as another human being. I personally don't believe we ever stop loving, it just changes. I don't expect anything out of him but his usual, because that's all he's ever done. Our 7 year anniversary will be in March, and I already know at some point this year we will be divorced, but I refuse to blame myself for his actions anymore. I know what real love is, because I love my son just for the fact he exists. It may be a lot of challenges sometimes with his autism, but I don't love him any less if he hits or yells or slams a door. BUT, the healthy thing is, I don't let him get away with it either and talk to him and let him know those behaviors are not ok. If they aren't ok for my son, then why would I let my husband, who professes to love me SO much, treat me a million times worse? I think there are lessons we can gain from everyone around us if we look. 

I hope that you keep posting here, because it really does help. A little for accountable, and a LOT for people who understand and won't judge you for recycling, and give the best advice they know how. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting someone to love you, cherish you, be there for you and treat you well. But what I've learned is, do you treat yourself that way? Do you love yourself? Do you cherish yourself by taking care of your needs? Do you treat yourself well? I couldn't say yes when I came here, and I'm still working on it, but I am making progress and I know you can too! We should be able to fill the need for love within ourselves, so that when that special someone comes along, they will ADD to our love instead of be the only source of it. You won't be in bondage that way, because you will love yourself enough to be able to say "this isn't ok" and walk away before any real damage is done.

Thank you so much for sharing! 

[Beacher]

Damn social media! Sometimes I wish we were back to good ol telephones and not have to go through this heartache of blocking, trying not to take a peek at what our BPDs are up to or saying, it's too tempting and can be very hurtful.

I have been suffering over 10 years of trying to deal and forgive but am certain I will die if I stay in this marriage. I truly love him but he will never get well knowing he can come back again with declarations of love and promises of starting over. I worry about him but am also finally not sick to my stomach or weepy. I certainly have my moments but they are becoming farther and farther in between.

One more story about keeping it green... .

My friend was in an abusive relationship. He slammed her the floor so hard her phone in her back pocket butt dialed me. My machine clicked on and I heard her screaming and him threatening to kill her. I called her back and had her come spend the night, and we listened to the tape. She went back to him a few months later and I said " I still have the recording, anytime you need a reminder". She eventually divorced him and said " I'll never forget that tape". There are no coincidences in life!

Stay strong, Spring is around the corner and with it hope.

[La Carotte]

Hello purekalm and Beacher, thank you for your very uplifting messages., I really do appreciate your support. I find the hardest time is just now when I wake up and am desperate for our usual morning texts... .This is usually when I give in and contact her so it really helps to have something from you to remind me why I'm not going to. Im about to start day 3 NC, mixed feelings really- horrified this is what my life has come to, but completely determined to stick with it.

purekalm- I have often thought along the same lines as you said about your son/husband. I'm a special ed teacher and appreciate every bit of effort my kids make, and understand why they behave the way they do sometimes (just as with ex) but I would never accept behaviour from my kids that I let ex get away with over and over.

Beacher- I'm quite pleased with myself because I never ever look on her social media. It drove me mad when we were together seeing all the nonsense she put, portraying herself as the most positive motivational person out there, and seeing her receive adoration from her followers becasue she's just so spiritual and inspirational. Yeugh!

Anyway, on with day 3... I will do this. And then tomorrow will be day 4. It's the only way.

Thank you!

[Penelope35]

I find the hardest time is just now when I wake up and am desperate for our usual morning texts... .This is usually when I give in and contact her so it really helps to have something from you to remind me why I'm not going to. Im about to start day 3 NC, mixed feelings really- horrified this is what my life has come to, but completely determined to stick with it.

Hey FIT. Mornings were the worst for me too. He still is the first thing on my mind when I wake up but nothing like it used to be. I used to wake up with a very heavy feeling and kind of had to remind my self of our current situation. It got better though. Much better I would say. You just have to overcome and beat this first very difficult phase. But you can do it!

[once removed]

I find the hardest time is just now when I wake up and am desperate for our usual morning texts... .This is usually when I give in and contact her

important to keep in mind, incredibly difficult to see: these are very stressful, highly charged, and volatile relationships, and they usually involve nearly constant communication if not routine. as you grieve, your psyche is processing, but your body is also physically adjusting. give that time. after my breakup i had daily anxiety attacks within half an hour to an hour of waking up. the fact that while i was with her, id wake up with dread and fear, the expectation that i was supposed to let her know i was awake/what i was doing and what might happen if i didnt probably had something to do with that. the anxiety attacks lasted for a couple of months. i dont say that to scare you, just to point out the impact that the stress of these relationships has on our bodies. i recommend building some kind of routine, of pretty much any kind, around these triggering times as a means of reprogramming. you might even try a quick blast of cold water.

[La Carotte]

Thank you for your comments about first thing in the morning, Penelope and once removed, I find it reassuring.

So it's a week since I decided this time it was definitely over and I'm feeling quite positive with myself. I didn't hear anything from her all week and didn't feel even tempted to contact her, although I wrote several messages not intending to send them, and was on high alert for her getting in touch.

Yesterday evening she did with a general "I'm sad, sorry for my part... .wish you well" text. Standard stuff, which I returned out of a sense of good manners.

But of course this opened the flood gates... .

The short version is: she was clearly looking for what normally happens- we talk, act like nothing happened and be fine. I couldn't do that and explained why (emotional affair, out in snow in pyjamas, then calling me a slag, not one moments acceptance of responsibility from her) Asked her to not contact me and said I'd do the same, is the only way.

This then caused a barrage of calls and texts over night,  all ignored by me, managed to avoid reading most if them, although there was a mention of having me arrested - so I guessed she wasn't accepting responsibility.

This morning she start d asking to meet- for closure and so we could both finally  tell truth. I refused as I've told the truth all along and shed refused to believe it so why would now be any different. The things she started accusing me of then reminded me exactly of why I couldn't be in this relationship any more. I said that I'm sorry but im not meeting and am now not replying again.

Another dozen texts and calls, avoided reading most but I gather it's about me having no respect for her the whole time, which is why she's now gone.

I had a couple of wobbles. I feel guilty about not meeting her. I know she wants to make things ok and doesn't know how. I know she loves me and has been able to rely on me making everything ok and now I'm not. Of course she now feels disrespected because I haven't done what she wants. But that doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful (does it?)  And of course it would be lovely to have a friendly honest closure chat, but we've had a dozen of these chats, they mean nothing, and besides - just because she wants it, doesn't mean I have to do it! And this is why I'm feeling positive with myself. Because of course I want us to meet for our chat, fall into each other's arms and reconnect- as we have done a dozen times before. But I'm not going to, for both our sakes. I'm going to keep away for as long as I need until I'm sure I can protect myself. That's my priority now. For the first time in three years. And just because she accuses me of something it doesn't mean it's true. It never has and it still doesn't now.

[once removed]

Yesterday evening she did with a general "I'm sad, sorry for my part... .wish you well" text. Standard stuff, which I returned out of a sense of good manners.

But of course this opened the flood gates... .

The short version is: she was clearly looking for what normally happens- we talk, act like nothing happened and be fine. I couldn't do that and explained why (emotional affair, out in snow in pyjamas, then calling me a slag, not one moments acceptance of responsibility from her) Asked her to not contact me and said I'd do the same, is the only way.

This then caused a barrage of calls and texts over night,  all ignored by me,

it sounds like she was experiencing an "extinction burst". this can be the tricky thing about using NC. its not that you did anything wrong here, but that your goals (limited contact or no contact) could use clarity. NC is the more extreme option - its a detaching tool but it can create a lot of anxiety for one or both parties. if she is one of those parties, she will test and act out against it. if you respond, it communicates that all she has to do is up the ante next time until you respond.

responding or LC are less extreme tools, they can lessen some tension, but still tricky to navigate. ideally, you want to avoid rehashing, or JADEing (justify, argue, defend, explain) when it comes to the relationship. she isnt going to accept responsibility, only deflect it, so explaining "you left me in the snow in my pajamas etc" is not going to get through and will be deflected. an approach of "its not you, its me" may work better. and in general, being really boring can go a long way.

Because of course I want us to meet for our chat, fall into each other's arms and reconnect- as we have done a dozen times before. But I'm not going to, for both our sakes. I'm going to keep away for as long as I need until I'm sure I can protect myself. That's my priority now. For the first time in three years. And just because she accuses me of something it doesn't mean it's true. It never has and it still doesn't now.

thats a good boundary. if you choose to meet eventually, how might you communicate "not right now"?

[Alexi]

You need to understand and come to terms that it's not their fault that they behave that way.

[Penelope35]

Yesterday evening she did with a general "I'm sad, sorry for my part... .wish you well" text. Standard stuff, which I returned out of a sense of good manners.

I

But of course this opened the flood gates... .

The short version is: she was clearly looking for what normally happens- we talk, act like nothing happened and be fine. I couldn't do that and explained why (emotional affair, out in snow in pyjamas, then calling me a slag, not one moments acceptance of responsibility from her) Asked her to not contact me and said I'd do the same, is the only way.

This then caused a barrage of calls and texts over night,  all ignored by me,

it sounds like she was experiencing an "extinction burst". this can be the tricky thing about using NC. its not that you did anything wrong here, but that your goals (limited contact or no contact) could use clarity. NC is the more extreme option - its a detaching tool but it can create a lot of anxiety for one or both parties. if she is one of those parties, she will test and act out against it. if you respond, it communicates that all she has to do is up the ante next time until you respond.

responding or LC are less extreme tools, they can lessen some tension, but still tricky to navigate. ideally, you want to avoid rehashing, or JADEing (justify, argue, defend, explain) when it comes to the relationship. she isnt going to accept responsibility, only deflect it, so explaining "you left me in the snow in my pajamas etc" is not going to get through and will be deflected. an approach of "its not you, its me" may work better. and in general, being really boring can go a long way.

Because of course I want us to meet for our chat, fall into each other's arms and reconnect- as we have done a dozen times before. But I'm not going to, for both our sakes. I'm going to keep away for as long as I need until I'm sure I can protect myself. That's my priority now. For the first time in three years. And just because she accuses me of something it doesn't mean it's true. It never has and it still doesn't now.

thats a good boundary. if you choose to meet eventually, how might you communicate "not right now"?

Once removed if someone prefers to go no contact why should we suggest she does otherwise. You are probably not suggesting but rather educating about the different options but by reading FIT's story my opinion is that she should stay no contact too. At least for some time. I think througout our relationships everything is about them. We think before we talk "to not upset them", we think of ways to respond "to not trigger them" and the list could go on forever. Why should we put them first even during this phase where WE are trying to pick up our pieces? Why should we care if this approach would cause them anxiety? This is about us. For once maybe we should at least try to put ourselves first. Any contact illicits FOG and sucks us back in the drama. If FIT decided that she needs to stay away to help her detach it's probably because her experience with her ex until now has showed her that this may be the only way. For now at least. I think we should support her to do that.

[Penelope35]

Just a few more thoughts.  No contact is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT and that's understandable by everyone. Probabilities are that the person who initiates will at some point break it. But in my experience even that has helped me detach even if it's just a little. I have been preparing my self to go no contact for a long time as there have been many break ups and ups and downs throughout the relationship. After I had tried every possible way (explain, argue, validate, be sweet, be mad etc etc etc), at some point I realised that NOTHING I would do would ever get me anywhere. So I decided to go no contact and told him so.

Since then I blocked and unblocked him many times, I checked social media after I promised my self I will never do that again and I even responded a few times (which always left me more broken). I did all these because i missed him and still do. BUT nonetheless,  this process has helped me slowly and steadily distance my self. I have in mind that if I want to let go of hope and accept that it's over, I can only do it if I dont expose my self to the triggers. Breaking of no contact by me included checking social media and responding to some of his manipulative messages.  But again, I responded the first time and got more hurt, I responded the second and got more broken so now I know. As long as i have my goal set to no contact, i am trying hard to move towards that direction and i don't beat my self up if sometimes i wasn't strong enough and slipped. I haven't reached my goal yet. I am now at the point where all messages from him go to a spam folder and I get to see them when I choose to do so. And I manage to not respond. Maybe I will slip again in the future but I will get up and move towards my goal again. Every time my "fall" feels less painful. I refuse to pretend I am boring to bore him so that he would quit and I would never consider the "it's not you, it's me" approach. Our dignities were hurt so many times in these relationships. I refuse to pretend "it's me" so that I will help him detach. Even if i know that i will benefit from that. The focus should be on us at this point.

I understand that different things work for different people and I can only speak for my self. But after following FIT's story, my personal feeling is that she needs distance at this point... .

[once removed]

Just a few more thoughts.  No contact is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT and that's understandable by everyone. Probabilities are that the person who initiates will at some point break it.

thats my point. theres a lot of potential drama involved for both sides when it comes to NC. that doesnt mean NC is the wrong choice. there are options.

if someone prefers to go no contact why should we suggest she does otherwise. You are probably not suggesting but rather educating about the different options but by reading FIT's story my opinion is that she should stay no contact too.

clarifying whats best for us is best for us. if the OP prefers no contact then responding is going to send a mixed message. if the OP wants to respond, thats fine, but boundaries need to be in place. NC and LC are two different tools for detachment unique to each of our situations, neither right or wrong.

only we can allow ourselves to be sucked into drama. if we need NC to avoid that temptation, its a perfectly valid tool. the relationship is over at this point, so neither LC or NC are about our ex, but about us and our detachment. LC isnt about not hurting someones feelings, but it can be about limiting the potential drama on both sides, which can assist in our detachment. think about it. if your goal is not to hear from your ex, how do you best go about that? read the stories here. no one responds well to being cut off. our exes may experience an extinction burst and go to extremes to contact us - the opposite of what those of us in NC are shooting for. the OP has clarified her intentions, which helps. her ex ignored them and contacted. the OP responded. the ex upped the ante, the OP responded. the ex interprets that as "if i up the ante, finallyitstime will respond". thats not finallyitstimes fault, none of this is easy and we are all in unique situations. its about what we want going forward. there are options. they both involve firm boundaries.

I refuse to pretend I am boring to bore him so that he would quit and I would never consider the "it's not you, it's me" approach. Our dignities were hurt so many times in these relationships. I refuse to pretend "it's me" so that I will help him detach. Even if i know that i will benefit from that. The focus should be on us at this point.

it should not be about his consideration or helping him. how do you get a chatty person to go away? would you talk to a boring person? what if, in your case (it may not be) that was the quickest path toward not hearing from him? those arent considerations if youre choosing NC. if youre choosing to respond, stating your reasons for the breakup and then ending contact is likely to result in a dramatic response. thats what happened in this case.

finallyitstime, i dont offer this advice to scold you. its very natural when someone reaches out to us to respond... .its very natural when someone reaches out to us for an explanation ,that we offer it. it was not wrong of you to do that, i hope i make that clear. i also hope that i make clear that if you would prefer not to be in contact with this person for the time being, that you do not owe her an explanation, and that giving her one will not satisfy her or you. keep in mind that you dont have to make everything better

[Penelope35]

Once removed I believe I bave benefited from going no contact and even breaking it. I do believe that our minds should be set on going no contact even if we sometimes slip. Low contact will stay low if the other person doesn't bombard you with calls and messages. If they do (which is the case most of the times) then it is you that have to find ways to limit it and when in this phase we are not in a psychological state to control it. We are easily drown into circular arguments which lead to drama anyway. Plus we know how overwhelming this can become for us and if we choose to answer selectivity it will also send mixed signals. And this will end up resembling the way they behave -answer when you need it, ignore when you don't.  

I guess my point is that the chances of low contact staying low and not have an effect on your mental being are around the same as choosing to go no contact and sticking to it. FOG starts to lift and you can see things more clearly when you distance yourself of any situation though. I believe our minds should be set on no contact and learn from it each time we break it. I also believe it would be best if you inform the other person about your choice. I told my ex that I will stop responding because I need to concentrate on my self.

This is my T's  opinion too. My T also said that I didn't even need to inform him about it because history has showed me that my choices to protect my self were never aknowledged or respected anyway. But I chose to tell him I would stop responding  as a way to avoid the extinction burst that you talked about but mainly because I am not the kind of person who would ghost someone. Some of the times i broke no contact was to remind him that i have already told him i would. I didn't have to but we all know how manipulative and guilt illiciting their messages can get.

Anyway I hope everybody finds what's best for them. But we have to be honest with ourselves the whole time because I feel in this first very difficult phase we can easily find excuses and reasons to respond or reach out to them. We have to know why we are doing it. I know I did it because I couldn't let go. And I still struggle. But it got much better with time and distance

[Beacher]

 I also miss morning calls. Then he would always call,back and say" I just wanted to tell you one more time that I love you". All very romantic and what every girl dreams of. Until at a later date I was called a f--King b---h and I was stupid and anything else he could throw at me.

Now that we are separated it's much easier to simply say " I'm not going to tolerate this, goodbye" and simply hang up. The second he starts saying something nasty, not engaging in defending myself or getting,upset.

It takes time but if you remember you are a human being of dignity and do not deserve this, you will get there

[Lucky Jim]

Hey F-I-T, I think you doing great in an extremely stressful situation.  Beware of the F-O-G that a pwBPD will use to manipulate you.  Having you arrested --  Fear.  You owe it to her to meet -- Obligation.  Accusing you -- Guilt.  These are all powerful levers, I know, to which I was quite susceptible.  By pausing and thinking about it before reacting, you are giving yourself the opportunity to see things clearly, free from FOG, which is a skill that takes practice, yet you're doing it.  Keep up the good work!

LuckyJim

[La Carotte]

A week ago I let her in.

After everything.

She explained, she begged, she reasoned, she promised, she showed remarkable understanding and insight. And I fell for it.

I didn't relent on going back with her but we made an agreement about seeing each other a couple times a week, just for walks, which we like, made rules for use of text and phone to avoid the usual pitfalls,  and I made it very clear what I was and wasn't prepared to accept (ie verbal abuse and accusations) and said that if we could do that for three months to prove that we could then we'd have made a huge and essential step towards a decent relationship for us both.

And I felt strong and convinced I / she / we could do this.

And of course it was never going to work.

It lasted a day until she disregulated and then since then it's been the usual horrible life sapping awfulness, ending with me in full on obsessive rescue mode and ST from her.

Except it's worse. Because I haven't told anyone that we've been back in touch, I'm too ashamed. I couldn't bear to come here and admit it becasue I feel such a failure and so stupid. So everyone thinks I'm fine and I am so far from fine. I'm a complete mess

[Jonathan Ricciardi]

Keep your head up.  Ex knows that you are and will always be there.  I don't ever recommend no contact, but give her space.  A lot of space, maybe weeks, months or even years.  I have waited 3 years and continue to wait for contact from her, I've accepted she isn't coming back.  She hates me. Though hate takes energy.  I would recommend that you tell her exactly how you feel, no matter how much it hurts, I mean tell her everything she did wrong.  That is what she is planning, you my friend are headed for a stonewalling.

[once removed]

finallyitstime, this is a place where you have nothing to be ashamed of. we wont judge you, and i assure you youre not the first to give things another go. theres no shame in that. it sounds like you were pretty careful, too.

would you like to share more about how youre feeling about all this? we are here to help.

[La Carotte]

Thank you, once removed, I do appreciate that.

I suppose more than anything I feel disappointed, with her for not being able to stick with it, with myself for believing that if we put a plan in place it would work, and with myself for thinking I was strong enough to not get blown away again, and with us both for not being able to do things differently. I know I tried, and I'm sure she did too,  but we just can't.

And I feel that if I'd stuck to it, I'd be a week further on. And i thought that a month ago, and six months ago, and a year ago. And saying that out loud makes me feel stupid and so angry with myself for keep letting her suck me back in. And I know I should block her, that is the only thing that gets us in contact, I never contact her or check social media or anything, and I do it for a short while and then I can t bear it, I obsess about whether she's trying to contact me. And so I unblock her and wait for her to text or call so I can delete it or not, answer it or not, depending on which part of the obsessive thoughts cycle Im in when it comes.

And all I really want? For it all to be okay

[Lucky Jim]

Hey F-I-T, Don't beat yourself up!  Most of us, including me, have recycled several times.  It's all part of the process of coming to grips with BPD.  Those w/BPD can be quite convincing, as you note:

She explained, she begged, she reasoned, she promised, she showed remarkable understanding and insight. And I fell for it.

In my view, they are experts at manipulation.  I'll say it again: Beware of the F-O-G.  Do what's right for you, I suggest.

LuckyJim

[once removed]

i agree with lucky jim, that its all part of the process. sometimes we arent done and we test the waters again, sometimes that reinforces our resolve. and for example, i wouldnt recommend it to everyone, but in my case, reading over old texts actually facilitated my detachment. the results can be positive here, no need to beat yourself up . detachment isnt a linear process.

having said that, theres a fine line between shaming yourself, and feeling fed up and angry with yourself because you feel youre not living your values. which side do you think your feelings might be leaning toward?

[La Carotte]

Thanks guys.

I've thought about the FOG a lot and I know that I'm in it. I think that's the main reason I can't bear not to reply whe she gets I touch and is clearly trying, it seems so mean.

once removed, I think one of the key things that's kept me hooked is that to NOT continue supporting her when I do believe she's trying,  feels like I'm going agains my values. I've been a special ed teacher for 25 years and it's what I do best- look for the good in someone's intentions, and celebrate and encourage them, even if what they're actually achieving is far from the mark. And I do genuinely believe she tries. When she's just being horrid and mean it's much easier for me to cut myself off and not be so affected.

The difference though, I do know, is that she is not my job. She's my partner. And I don't want to spend the rest of my life being told horrid things about myself. And I've got to the stage now where I reallly don't believe that things will ever change. Except when I do. And it's that which causes me frustration and shame- Im an intelligent woman and I know that if 99.9% of evidence suggests something then it's stupid to go with the 0.1%, and yet I keep doing that.

[khibomsis]

FIT, you can't help her. Until you get back your self-respect you are no good to anyone. How about trying baby steps? Pick a boundary, any boundary, and police it firmly. You will be helping her by giving her something definite to push against. But most of all you will be helping yourself by proving to yourself you can do it. You wouldn't allow your students to run the school. So don't let her run your relationship.  I have been following your story because it brings back old times - I've been there. Believe me, once I started setting boundaries she left me alone pretty quickly. I remember the day I had just buried the second friend in two months, both difficult painful cancer deaths, and I said 'I can't  caretake you right now". When gaslighting didn't work, she went NC and I was replaced within a month.Is that what you are afraid of? Do you think if you stop rescuing she won't love you any more?   

[La Carotte]

khibomsis, I'm so sorry to hear about your friends, that must have been a terrible time for you. Thank you for sharing your experience.

The short answer to your question is- YES! I've read everything, I know about the way pwBPD love and mirror, I know about codependency and trauma bonding, I've read Stop Caretaking... But yes, it feels so good to have someone "love" me so much, no matter how madly that's expressed, I've never had it in my life before and I like it. And yes, I'm scared that if I stop rescuing that she'll stop loving me. I cannot bear the thought of her with someone else. Or me with someone else. I'm cringing reading this because I know that the relationship is so messed up and so destructive and unhealthy, but I vowed to only be honest on here otherwise what's the point, and that is my sad truth.

I am putting boundaries in place, and remaining completely resolute, which is why things have got increasingly awful, because she expects me to back down by now and I'm not going to, even though that means Im likely to lose her. It's so hard because I'm doing it becasue I know on a head level that it's right to do, not because I want to. But I am doing it, and actually I feel quite proud of myself this weekend - she tried again and I was pleasant and kind but stuck 100% to my lines in the sand. I also explained how difficult it is for me when she gets in touch after a week or so because I want to believe her good intentions will come through this time and she did appear to understand, and says she won't be in touch again. We'll see.

[once removed]

The difference though, I do know, is that she is not my job.

you took the words right out of my mouth . a difficult lesson for me was that there are ways to love and support someone outside of rescuing, or even leading the proverbial horse to water. you probably know that intellectually too, but when i began to put it in practice, i found that that attitude really did/does align with my values. if i want to help/love/support someone, how can i best do that? my instincts arent always correct.

also important to remember is the old airplane oxygen mask analogy. we really have to see to ourselves before we are best able to help anyone else. you are entitled to emotional space. it is not cruel or wrong to take it, it can be best for all involved.

has someone in your life signaled or threatened to stop loving you if you stopped rescuing them?

[khibomsis]

Thanks F-I-T! My friends are at peace now and so am I. I always tell my spouse I would not have been ready for her if she had come along any sooner. They say you always are attracted to women who are like your mother  and it was being so broken that cured me of that habit for good     For this reason I do not regret my BPD relationship since the story had a happy ending. And so will yours. Good for you about the boundaries, keep setting them as you are able and behind the lines in the sand you will find a safe space that is your own. It seems that your are clear intellectually but struggle to allow yourself to feel. I wonder if all the drama doesn't hook you since it keeps you from spending time with yourself and your emotions?   

[La Carotte]

a difficult lesson for me was that there are ways to love and support someone outside of rescuing, or even leading the proverbial horse to water. you probably know that intellectually too, but when i began to put it in practice, i found that that attitude really did/does align with my values. if i want to help/love/support someone, how can i best do that? my instincts arent always correct.


has someone in your life signaled or threatened to stop loving you if you stopped rescuing them?

Two thought provoking things here, once removed, thank you.

Firstly, I know that the best way I can love her and support her is to stay out of her life. She can't cope with being in a relationship with someone  she feels so strongly about, it makes her feel out of control and so she has to behave in ways that she knows are awful, to regain control and power. She told me once that she felt like she was fighting for her life sometimes in relation to me, and she regularly believes that the only reason I stay with her is because I have some master plan to destroy her. Both completely mad things, she acknowledged that in the telling of them, but she still thinks them. And she has a chronic disease which is made much worse by stress and of course believing all the things she does about me, "fighting" with me all the time, feeling that I'm not there for her (which im often not because she's rejectd me but she doesn't see that, but I'm still not there when she's sick)... .All these things and so much more. So, in truth. The best way I can love and support her is stay away, and not let her keep hoping it will be fine because all the evidence suggests it won't.

The second thing... This is very hard for me. My mum was the best person in my world. I was quite young and such things weren't talked about but I know now that she clearly had major anxiety issues and was agoraphobic and I spent my life worrying about her and trying to make her life as easy and as good as possible. Not becuas she threatened to love me less if I didn't, or anything like that,she was lovely, but I knew she was unhappy and I just wanted her to be ok. My dad and my brothers existed in our world but it was us two who mattered really. (She'd been orphaned young and kind of grew up and discovered the world with me as I did, as a teenage and then a student) And then she died of cancer when I was early 20s, and abandoned me and my dad and brothers have been horrible ever since (dad not so much in recent years, but it's been a long time coming). So.  I'm sure there's that. But so what? How does that help me now?

[La Carotte]

khibomsis - your reply came as I was replying to once removed - interesting you mention mothers! Not sure what that's all about in my case but Im pretty sure it's something I need to look into. Don't relish it though, to be honest, am pretty scared of opening that particular well shut down box.

I think you're completely right about the drama stopping me spending time with myself and my emotions. I've thought this several times recently actually. I was in a bad place when she came along, stuff I should have dealt with and didn't, and my relarionship with her has helped me a lot in many ways- I'm physically healthier than in my adult life, for example- but I suppose I haven't dealt with that stuff still, was easier to get focussed on her. No excuses now... .

[once removed]

i think those things are a considerable "so what", finallyitstime . that had to have a tremendous and devastating impact on you  .

as to how it helps you: youve made an important connection here. awareness is a facilitator of change. it isnt change in and of itself, but it presents us with the opportunity. it does no help at all until we answer for ourselves what we do with this awareness and this opportunity.

[La Carotte]

[quote . it does no help at all until we answer for ourselves what we do with this awareness and this opportunity. [/quote]
Ok. But I've known this for some time now. And I have no idea what to do with this awareness and opportunity. I'm completely able to see it as an opportunity and in fact would love to think that this whole experience with ex would end up being the catalyst for me to sort that stuff out with my mum and with my completely messed up attitude towards relationships as an adult. But how do I even begin that? If I knew how to answer it for myself I would have done by now. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[once removed]

when i say "opportunity" i am referring to the opportunity to break the cycle of rescuing, not putting yourself and your needs first, and practicing love from a distance. i dont mean that making the connection will heal your wounds (it wont), though seeing the silver lining is a healthy, positive, productive attitude.

you have begun it, though. you came here, and reached out for support. youve read books. youve made important connections. those are all concrete steps that take courage and effort. unfortunately i cannot give you concrete steps as to how to heal your grief as the answers tend to be unique to each of us. i also wont tell you exactly how to detach from your ex or not, that process is unique to each of us as well. i can offer support and advice, thoughts, and listen, though.

in terms of concrete steps around healing: did you make the call to your therapist? how did it go?

[khibomsis]

F-I-T, I am sorry to hear about the loss of your mother so young! And the rest of your family so distant, there seems to be so many things you lost with that death. Or never really had. I can only relate insofar as I have spent years grieving the mother I never had, my living uBPD mother is almost 80 and still going strong, one runs out of emotions really, and that is all that can be said about that.   

I personally would be wary of opening shut doors without support. There are repressed  memories from early childhood I have chosen not to recover even in therapy, I have made my peace with them, saying no doubt I had good reason not to remember.Once removed is absolutely right in suggesting that a concrete step you can take is counselling.From there you can decide what you will heal and what leave untouched.In the meantime a good tip from AlAnon is fake it till you make it. Taking one day at a time, even an hour at a time if you need to, will get you through while you make the space to feel. This board has made a huge difference to me, even just in feeling that I am not alone.  Does it help if I keep asking you how the boundaries are going?

[La Carotte]

I am finding the support I'm receiving here so very helpful. I felt ashamed and annoyed with myself and Im trying not to beat myself up so much. Thank you.

I had a session with the therapist I saw 10 months ago. She kind of disappeared after a few sessions, it was all a bit odd, but I liked her and so decided to make contact with her again and assume she had stuff going on. This was a big step for me actually as in the past, I would have taken it personally and never contacted her again.

Anyway, it was good to speak to her, she works with a number of people with BPD so gets it. And what was great for me was that she said that although the situation and th issues that I was telling her about were exactly the same 10 months on, she felt I was very different and in a much healthier place. Unfortunately she was just about to go abroad for a month, so I've not seen her since, but I'm looking forward to her return.

In the meantime, yes, I've stuck to my boundaries. She broke one yesterday and came to my house. I didnt let her in. This was a first for me, not sure who was the most shocked! As things stand, we're never going to be in touch ever again... .For the millionth time. I'm in the part of the process where I'm enjoying the space, have said all I need to say, and am hoping she'll stay away. Maybe this time she will. She says she will this time!

On a side note, I have felt terribly anxious today. Scared. With a feeling of foreboding. I unblocked her on FB and phone as I know that being blocked makes her furious and I just felt like I didn't want to antagonise her. Really, at the moment all I want is to get through the next week without any contact, none at all. The idea of that seems so lovely, I'm so exhausted with it all.

Khibomsis, your words, "one runs out of emotions really, and that is all that can be said about that" is my favourite thing I've read today. Yes. That is exactly it. Exactly.

[Lucky Jim]

I unblocked her on FB and phone as I know that being blocked makes her furious and I just felt like I didn't want to antagonise her.

Hey F-I-T, I understand that you don't want to pull on the tiger's tale for fear of getting eaten.  On the other hand, why are you worried about her emotions?  Her feelings are her issue, I suggest, not yours.  It's hard to get out of the habit, I know, but I encourage you to be authentic and do what is right for you.  Took me a long time to learn how to let go when it comes to other's problems.

LuckyJim

[La Carotte]

Hi Lucky Jim

It was more that yesterday I got myself into a panic of fear about what she might do to cause trouble for me if I upset her. I believe she's perfectly capable of false allegations, has already told people before of what an abuser I am, all my many affairs etc etc and is very credible, we work in the same area and she's good friends with my boss, and I'd read on here of people's terrible stories of vindictive exes, so got myself a bit worked up. I know she absolutely hates it when I block her so decided the best thing to do was just lie low, which is what I'm doing, and I've not heard from her, so that's ok.

Even though this was based on nothing that she'd said or done recently, and was completely me doing it to myself, it did give me a bit of a shot across the bows- you really shouldn't be frightened because you know that the person you love has no boundaries, should you?

[Lucky Jim]

OK, now I get it.  This was sort of a "preemptive strike" to avert potential problems with your boss, right?  Agree, in a normal r/s one shouldn't be frightened by one's SO, but those w/BPD operate in the realm of F-O-G, so it's natural for you to have fearful feelings.  Just beware of any potential attempts at manipulation, if she decides that a recycle is her goal.

LJ

[khibomsis]

yes, F-I-T this is a good board, recovering co-dependents helping each other    it inspired me to be the change I want to see so set one -actually two  boundaries of my own. Baby steps. And immediately like you felt a wave of anxiety. Pretty shortly realized that this a deep primal childhood fear of the punishment which awaits my temerity in daring to have  a self. So I practiced self care until the panic went away, once one names it it can be dealt with.All quiet today from my BPD FOO and there it was: silence I could hear myself think in. How about you? Are you feeling better what with  the stand you took on your doorstep ?

[La Carotte]

Honestly, khibomsis ? Ive spent since then veering between being glad that I stood up for something that was important to me, and feeling terrible and regretting it, and thinking that I'm daft for making it into something important when of course she's going to be upset if I don't want her to come into my house, who wouldn't, and this is all my fault for not being tolerant enough. And then the little voice says, "FIT, where is the line between tolerant and abused doormat who is not respected?" And then the louder voice says, " But if you just tried a bit harder... ."

And then I pour a glass of wine or two to shut them up, and cry some and imagine how lonely I'm going to be for the rest of my life because even if I meet someone else, I'm pretty certain I won't feel this love/d again, I never have in nearly 50 years, and so why would I? And I wonder if the price to pay isn't worth it, should I go on to the staying board, but what's the point because I've lost her now, because I chose to stick to some stupid boundary.

Probably not what you were hoping to hear, sorry, but I think I said before, I said to myself I would only be honest on here, or what's the point?

I do appreciate your time and concern, and I'm sorry if Im sounding a bit ranty and negative

[once removed]

hey finallyitstime,

its really uncomfortable and unnatural at first when one makes these kinds of changes. standing up for yourself can feel wrong or cruel, or something you need to justify or explain, sometimes even to yourself. surely youve heard of people that have great difficulty in saying "no".

you took a big step. its natural to feel pretty shaky in such steps, but you did it, the step is now behind you, and thats progress. the good news is that it does get easier in time, as confidence builds with each step. none of this is easy, and sometimes we take a step back, or two, and thats okay if it happens, its all part of the process.

you also took a big step in seeing your therapist. any plans to speak with her again?

[khibomsis]

hey F-I-T nobody's here to judge. Have done my share of pyjama sitting in the snow or some version thereof so certainly not me  The person you need to please is yourself. But for sure, the wandering in the FOG is exactly what happens to me too when I set boundaries. That was all I was trying to say, that and the peace that comes on the other side. For everything that takes up space in our lives we are depriving something else of space. Somewhere out there is a beautiful recovering co-dependent woman just looking for somebody to love. You've probably walked past her a million times and  never noticed in the FOG.

That said, I would be very surprised if there is no attempt to contact you in the next week. And I do suspect that you might be more comfortable on the undecided board. Does it have to be so either/or? Could a boundary not be presented as  something like a reward? As in "OK, you can visit me at home when you have demonstrated that you can refrain from dysregulating and upsetting my daughter"? Just asking... .Maybe something to take up with therapist when you see her?

[La Carotte]

Hi guys, thanks for your continued concern, it's helped me enormously these past few days. Your questions make me think and your obvious concern sustains me and makes me feel less isolated.

Unfortunately my first therapy session coincided with her going abroad for a month, but am looking forward to speaking to her again on her return.

I will go and have a look on the Undecided board, but actually, I do feel as though this has to be it, at least for the foreseeable future for several reasons:

We've both got locked into such awful patterns that I don't hold any hope of anything shifting until we've has some time apart, some proper time apart, not just a week or two. We need to do something different.  We both try, we both hope, but we end up back in the awfulness within days, hours, minutes sometimes, and then the horror just piles up and adds to the next times arsenal of insults and blame.

This isn't just her doing it. I find myself increasingly intolerant and unable to accept things that I used to, and increasingly nasty and hurtful. I immediately feel bad afterwards and go into apology/rescue overdrive but I've still done it. I've spoken and behaved in ways I never have in my life, and I don't like it. I don't want to be that person.

A big part of the reason for my change is that, even though I truly believe she's trying, and  I know that she has huge problems, and I want, in theory to support her no matter what, there a big part of me that just thinks I shouldn't have to put up with the constant vile insults that come from her. I know she doesn't really believe them (although at the time she does) becasue nobody would stay with someone they really believed was as awful as she says  I am, I know they're just verbal diarrhoea because she s unable to express herself appropriately, she's admitte as much, I know she's terrified of losing me so has to push me away, I know, I know. But I'm sick of it. It's horrible. And that feeling impairs my ability to do the validation, SET etc, because I don't want to, I want to strike back. Not good.

My daughter will be leaving home in approx six months and I need for her to be able to go and not worry about me any more than is inevitable. She has been so kind and generous and tolerant and understanding of me, ex, and me and ex, but she has come to the end of her tether and now hates ex, (pyjamas in the snow while I was sick was the final straw for her) has lost respect for me for allowing myself to be treated so badly so often and... .has still said she'll accept whatever my choices are because she loves me. So my choice is to protect her from this as much as I can, as I should have for two years, and didn't. I've tried to explain to ex why I need her not to come to my house ar the moment while D18 is there, and she has chosen to see it as being barred at the whim of a spoiled brat teenager who has too much power and who only thinks that ex is a baddy becasue of the lies I've told about her. Not because she's seen her turning up in the middle of the night, or seen me have to unplug the phone, or seen me demented as she phones and texts me 20 times while I'm having dinner with daughter, or seen me not leave my bed because I'm so miserable, or not eat because I'm so anxious, or seen plans change weekly, every single holiday and special occasion ruined, or not ruined, just the lead up to it never knowing if it'll happen or not. Etc. etc. etc.

So, this has to be it. No matter how hard, it just has to be. If I don't hear from her this weekend, and I don't expect to, it will be the first time neither of us has been in touch at a weekend, even given all the many many break ups of the past two years. It will be a big deal. And I do believe it will happen. For my part, Im determined.

[khibomsis]

F-I-T I am humbled by your clarity. Yes, the time to move on is before you start being violent. Been there too. Not a good place.   

Your daughter sounds amazing! You've raised a good child there.

When I read your description of the last two years, the thing that strikes me most is how tiring it must have been. That was one of the things that made me move on, strange but true. I just ran out of energy for the drama. When the negative thoughts threaten to overtake you maybe switch them by doing something that makes you feel relaxed and happy. Are you sure you get enough rest? While drinking and crying is natural for you at this stage, what else do you do to self care? 

[La Carotte]

Khibomsis, that is exactly right. I'm exhausted.

It has been relentless and I'm exhausted, mentally and physically.

I've lost 50lbs in the past year, which in many ways is good as I needed to, but I didn't do it in a healthy way and I am regularly unable to do anything other than go to work (which is a stressful tiring job) and then come home, go to bed and stare into space becasue Im so exhausted.

One of the things that makes me overwhelmed and anxious now is the thought of all the time I'll have on my hands now I'm not fielding constant calls and texts etc... .

In theory I want to spend that time getting myself healthy, both physically and mentally, and I'm sure that I will be able to do that soon. I also use to be creative, and haven't done anything for longer than I can remember, so want to get back to that.

But for now I feel so tired and overwhelmed that all I can do is retreat to safety of my bed. I'mgoing to try and not beat myself up about it as I need some time to recuperate.

This whole idea of self love and self care is very odd to me. I remember one of the first conversations ex and I ever had, when we were just friends, and she talked about the importance of being selfish. I just thought that was awful, just didn't understand how it could be ok to put yourself before others,  and she lent me a book to encourage me to be selfish, practise self care. Ironic that the reason we've ended is that I eventually started practising small acts of self care in relation to her and she just couldn't stand it!

[khibomsis]

well at least she can't say you never listened to her F-I-T Sorry, terrible sense of humour, my friends ban me from making jokes.

Good that you respect your need for rest. Some on this board have been diagnosed with PTSD after BPD relationships, not saying anything about you but just trying to validate your tiredness. Some really cheesy sitcoms, popcorn and icecream will have you feeling better in no time.

I find self love to be the absolute first lesson one has to learn in getting better - and indeed it speaks volumes that it should be something one has to learn. But it is an interesting study. You cannot expect others to love you if you don't love yourself.

[La Carotte]

Oh she always has good advice, khibomsis, one of the things that drives me up the wall is that part of her job is life coaching and training others in restorative practices - go figure! It's why I could never bear it when she insisted we were friends on FB ... .The constant motivational and inspirational things she was doing and saying (often I was part of them but nobody knew that, is was hidden) and the adoration of her fans drove me nuts because it was / is all so fake. Luckily I was blocked on FB every other week, which suited me just fine!

Anyway- I've decided my three watchwords need to be:

Self love

Self respect

Dignity

I've not being doing so great on any of those recently, and that needs to change... .

[khibomsis]

that is actually quite shocking F-I-T, one can only hope she is totally different in her professional life. The saying one thing and doing another certainly resonates with my all too wide experience of BPD. The self love I can help you with, though, that one is easy. Remember how you said that her loving you made you feel safe and secure? It seems that early phase is actually mirroring, BPD people have weak identity formation and so what they do is mirror your identity back to yourself That is what makes their love so addictive because at least initially they come across as the ideal partner. Of course. Because what was reflecting back at you was the lovely wonderful person that you are. See. Now all you have to do is be your own reflection. Sounds convoluted but with practice gets easier.

How was the weekend with full NC? I know you were dreading it but here it is almost over.   

[La Carotte]

Oh she is, she's very well respected in her professional and personal life, and with good reason, she's great! She's very able to articulate the problem of being close to someone triggering everything for her, and keeps everyone else at just the right distance and projects just the right image if herself to be adored and revered and respected. 

Thanks for what you said about mirroring and being my own reflection. I do think that the thing I'm learning most, at least on a head level, is that I need to love myself. easier said than done, but I'm up for the challenge... .

As for my weekend, utterly miserable but I did it. And I didn't contact her. Although I did go where i thought she might be once. She wasn't and I hated myself for a short while but then decided to give myself a break - at least I didn't contact her!

I've actually just this minute got the first text in a week - I liked something on a mutual group in FB, and she texted me to ask me to leave her alone. It was nothing to do with her, one of our group had posted something I liked. She did the same a week ago in similar circumstances, the difference being that last time I bit and we rowed and she ended up accusing me of stalking her and we both ended up saying all kinds of vile things, and this time I deleted it, along with her number so there will be no engagement. Go me!

[Suzn]

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